Alicent Didn't Start the Dance of the Dragons
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 12 ก.ย. 2024
- Hello everyone. Even though I am technically team black, I do think the criticism of the Alicent and the singular blaming of her for causing the dance of the dragons is wrong so I made a video about it. I hope you enjoy!!!
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This is what I've been saying lol. It was Viserys, and in part Otto. Viserys was a terrible father and a weak king. He neglected all of his children, including Rhaenyra, but most of all his children with Alicent. What I don't understand is why he remarried and had more children if he was already dead set on making Rhaenyra his heir. If he wanted to remarry, he could have chosen any other noblewoman, but he went for his daughter's best friend, knowing this would destroy their friendship, and yet he didn't care. He didn't prepare Rhaenyra to rule, he killed his first wife for a male heir and when he finally got a male heir through Alicent he wanted nothing to do with that male heir. Honestly Viserys was just horrible.
He was ridiculous, heavy on him not preparing Rhaenyra to rule at all and also he didn't prepare the realm. It was obvious that there would be opposition for a women being the monarch as westeros is a patriarchal society and he did nothing to make sure the realm would be united to avoid war. Even if Allicent and the Hightower were with Rhaenyra war was inevitable. He makes me so mad
Oh god. Rhaenrya stans are gonna be really hurt by this
they're already mad but oh well.
Honestly I get why people are upset, but at the same time I feel like Alicent being far more innocent than the book portrays her fits the themes of the show. If you look to history you find dozens of women who are given the sole blame for complicated situations or remembered as some sort of scheming power hungry seductress even if there's no solid proof of it. It's not surprising that Alicent, being a woman in a patriarchal time, had far less power to affect events than the men around her, but Westeros blamed her anyway and made her into the villain for being a woman with any power at all.
Recent episode discusses how Rhaenys claimed Meleys in the same manner of which Aemon did. Meleys was Daemons mother's dragon that rejected him. The kids were wrong for attacking Aemon. He even says "come at me again"... & there was zero accountability as Anastasia indicate. There is wrong on both sides.
Kids were wrong to attack, yes, but Aemond could act with more compassione either. He might not throw first punch, but he started insulting his cousin - Rhaena did NOTHING wrong to him. He knew how it is to live without dragon. Yet insetad saying ''Vhagar chose me, but I am sure you will find your dragon soon", he mocked this poor innocent girl who just lost her mother ''Maybe your cousins will find you 🐖 to ride, it will suit you". Boys were wrong to bully Aemond, but Rhaena never did any harm to him. Only then girl lost it and attacked him. Aemond clearly wanted this fight.
Key word the dragon REJECTED HIM the girl didn’t even get to try with vhager a difference aemond was disrespectful for even trying to do that right after her mother had just died defending him is wild
@@pendragonsxskywalkers9518 This was the first time he met Baela and Rhaena he did not owe them loyalty. Also, they ganged up on him with Jace and Luke who bullied him alongside Aegon, called him a thief, and started to get physical first.
I agree that for Rhaena also being dragonless this could have felt wrong, this was an understandable reaction for a child but expecting Aemond who is roughly the same age to be more emotionally mature is a bit naive. Especially since he previously saw how all the adults were behaving.
A lot of people miss that Aemond heard Vhagar's song the same as Leana did and responded. Rhaena traveled with Vhagar from Pentos she had a lot of time to claim her, but she did not. Vhagar also knew Leana's children if she wanted another raider she could have refused Aemond but she didn't.
Finally! Someone understands! She didn't ask for any of this! Her dad told her to seduce viserys in the first place, and of course she couldn't say no to her dad!
exactly. people don't allow themselves to empathize with her a victim of grooming and manipulation
@@_anastasiagracia_ Worse, I see people portraying Viserys as the victim. "Oh, the poor man was coerced into this by his small council." He bent over backward and broke a thousand-year-old tradition to put Rhaynera on the throne but just couldn't refuse them when they made him marry.
Like cut the crap, marrying Alicent was a bad political move in this situation as he antagonized Vleryons over this, he should have married Leana. He wanted to marry Alicent. He didn't need to bed her after they had Aegon, but he kept forcing her.
Also, people accuse Alicent of betraying Rhaynera by not telling her about visiting the king. But Viserys specifically forbade Alicent? People forget Alicent is not Rhae and could face consequences for breaking the law or disobeying the king.
Yes! Viserys is the true source of this conflict and carries most of the responsibility for the Dance. His aversion to court politics, his fear of displeasing people when making tough decisions, his submission to his heart and it's desires instead of duty to the realm and the way he constantly avoids dealing with conflict in his family: a good man and great character but weak king that doomed his family.
1) Viserys breaks thousands of years of tradition by naming his daughter heir (the very tradition which made him king over Rhaenys if the first place) and then proceeds to do nothing effective to clarify the succession, prepare Rhaenyra to rule and strengthen her claim. Viserys had the power to codify gender-neautral primogeniture into law, he could have made Rhaenyra hand or regent, he could have spent years teaching her histories, having her trained in diplomacy, negotiation or military strategy, he could have taken her on tours of the 7 kingdoms to endear her to powerful houses. But nah, his daughter is about to walk a difficult path and he does almost nothing to protect her.
2) Viserys emotionally neglects his children by Alicent and gives them no reason to demonstrate loyalty towards his wishes once he's gone. His daughter is a dreamer and for a dude obsessed with prophecy he barely notices. Aemond is a history and philosophy nerd and yet Mr "obsessed with the histories" doesn't notice or give a shit. Aegon has a powerful bond with Sunfyre and again, Viserys doesn't care. When Aemond gets his eye ripped out, instead of discipling both kids (Aemond for disrespecting his nephews + Luke for cutting the eye out) Viserys focuses on chastising his two sons, ignoring the animosity between the kids and protecting Rhaenyra's lies. The look Aemond gives Viserys when the king shouts "we are a family!" perfectly captures how much his sons don't like him.
3) Viserys constantly ignores the good advice from his council. He ignores Otto when the Hand rightly suggests wedding Rhaenyra to Aegon. He ignores Corlys when called to take action in the Step Stones. He ignores Lord Strong when he has a very good suggestion of marrying Laena. There are multiple opportunities for Viserys to solve problems in his family and realm but they're difficult decisions so he takes the easy route out.
4) Viserys then brings Otto back as Hand (stupid move if you know the man could potentially usurp your daughter) and then Vizzy does nothing to ensure Alicent will be confident that Rhaenyra's ascension will not threaten the lives of her children. It sucks but the truth is, unless the house of the dragon is united, Rhaenyra's ascension requires that Aemond, Aegon and Daeron die (Daemon wouldn't have a problem doing this if it meant securing Rhaenyra's position in the instance where her authority is challenged as the first ruling Queen). So because does nothing to ease Alicent's reasonable anxiety and fear for her children's lives, Alicent proceeds to instil animosity towards Rhaenyra in her kids, which is then solidified when Aemond gets scarred and Daemon kills Vaemond
This season has really shifted my perspective of Alicent. Idk if it’s Olivia’s performance, the writing, or just overall analyzing the plot but, I went from hating her in the first season to sympathizing and defending now.
I think this season not having any time jumps is allowing more time with her character and Olivia's performance, as always, is spectacular.
you sow what you reap
You cans ympathize her and still see what she is - villain. I sympathize with Aegon's pain, him being abused by his own mother, being forced to marry Helaena, losing his child and then being burned. But he is still villain and so is Alicent.
@@pendragonsxskywalkers9518 rhaenyra knowingly let dozens of ppl die for an extra dragon, and she would do it again. she made bastard boys that will be scrutinized for the rest of their lives and even lied to them about it their whole life. rhaenyra is a villain too
@@fasho387 Your argument is nonsesn. Rhaneyra did not order anyone to do this - this people have choice and free will. She gave people choice. Rhaenyra has no bastard boys from legal poit of view. But I guess according to you she should force her gay husband to sleep with her - which as gay man I found icredibly distasteful to put it mildly. Rhaneyra is not a villain. She is protagonist of story. She has flaws but she is rightful ruler and law is on her side.
Thanks for this video, I enjoyed listening to your thoughts. I think Alicent gets way more hate than she deserves. I just love complex characters and I feel like people can’t appreciate nuance anymore and think beyond black and white. Alicent has made a lot of mistakes but she’s also human, and Rhaenyra really isn’t squeaky clean. Point, her giving birth to bastards and trying to pass them off as otherwise. People hate on Alicent for trying to ‘sabotage’ things by pointing out their obvious heritage, but like, she had every right to. Honestly it’s just refreshing to hear from someone who doesn’t hate on Alicent, I know we’re a minority lol. Also thank you for helping out a family in Gaza, that’s wonderful of you. I can’t donate right now but I’ll definitely share the link. ^^
Yes exactly
"Point, her giving birth to bastards and trying to pass them off as otherwise." - Rhaenyra children were acknolwedge by her husband. It was not Alicent's place to question this.
'she had every right to' - NO, she absolutely did NOT. Alicent is not Rhaenyra's husband. She has ZERO right to interfere into this. Moreover, Alicent knew that Laenor is into men, yet she still DEMANDED form him and Rhaenyra to sleep together, which is simply distasteful to put it mildy - especially (in show at least) Alicent was in marriage she was coerced into and she knew how it is to sleep with someone you don't want. Yet she demanded from other couple to suffer the same, insteadaof being happy for them - and happy they found the way to enjoy life and marraige they were forced.
"I think Alicent gets way more hate than she deserves." - Quite opposite; Alicent has multiple videos about her that try pretend she is not a villain of this story. She gets much more sympathy than she actually deserves.
@@pendragonsxskywalkers9518 exactly
@@pendragonsxskywalkers9518She still tried to pass them off as true blood heirs to both the Iron Throne and Driftmark.
Hello everyone🥰🥰🥰. I want to start by thanking everyone for taking time out of your day to watch this. It means a lot to me. I also want to say that there are things that I forgot to mention in the video like Alicent refusing a marriage between Jace and Heleana. Anything missed will be reworked into a future video/videos. I do worry I didn't get my point across well enough and will be working on that as I continue to make content. I am welcome to discourse pertaining my points. Anyways thank you for watching I hope you enjoy💚💚💚💚
There for sure was nothing Alicent could do. They were already set on making Aegon king regardless of Viserys’ wishes.
Who was set? Her imbecile of a father who got sent away 2 seconds into the civil war... please. If she hadn't been so dumb she would have defied her father and sent him packing years earlier. Only dragon riders have power. Everyone else is just an ordinary human who can ben burnt. Before Alicent and her father started shit every dragon rider was on Rhenyra's side...
By episode 9 - true, but Alicent was undermining Rhaenyra's position since years. She installed in her sons resentment to their nephews instead of loylaty. If Aegon and Aemond were respecting their sister and her children, Driftmark cofrontation would not happen and Aegon and Aemond would never went along with Otto's plan.
@@pendragonsxskywalkers9518 I agree there. Alicent could’ve done better with the unity of her children and Rhaenyra. But I do still think that Otto and his allies, would not have allowed it, even if she willed it to be so (in the words of Daemon). Aegon had to be tracked down and forced to take a seat on the iron throne and Rhaenyra truly does have bastard children. It would’ve been a tough climb without Viserys doing better to set her up for the throne or Otto’s buy in.
@@Dae143 Yes, but Otto was absent for years in King's Landing. Alicent disrespected Rhaenyra all this time. She poisoned friendship Aegon had with Jace and Luke (maybe good thing for Velaryon boys, as Aegon was terrible role model, but encouraging this bond instead of destroying it could actually ease Alicent's fear about Aegon's life, as it would be less likely he will be harmed by Rhaenyra or Jacaerys). Alicent was also complaining to Larys how much she wished Otto to be back - and while she did not want Harrenhal in fire, it is clear she wanted her father back to scheme further - and she got it. She regrets it, but she started all of this. If she took different path and built alliance with Rhaenyra during her father's absence, Otto would be powerless.
@@pendragonsxskywalkers9518 rhae chose to flee to dragonstone and ignore her duties, believing the throne would be waiting for her after 7 years of absence. not queen material
alicent had no choice but to warn her sons about rhae (who was fine with aemond's eye been cut out). rhae would sacrifice them all for the throne if she had to
alicent did nothing wrong
First of all was so thrilled to see you on my TH-cam recommendations and ESPECIALLY with this thumbnail title!
thank you so much
The war was always going to happen because Viserys is malleable enough to be pushed to remarriage, whether it's to Alicent, Laena or whoever. It's Viserys' inaction that caused the war, that's all.
But I did find the focus on the prophecy weird. Because Alicent, since S1, keeps saying that Aegon and his brothers' lives are on the line if Rhaenyra becomes Queen simply because they're male (which automatically makes them rival claimants). That was her entire motivation for pushing Aegon to be King, but then it suddenly pivots to Viserys' final words, when her motivation already DISREGARDS what Viserys wants anyways. So yeah, I find that odd because this is a civil war for a chair not for the good of the world. If Rhaenyra is so committed to Aegon's Dream then she would know (because she keeps repeating it) that a dragon war will be deadly and that for the good of the realm and the preservation of the dragons, she should back down. Despite humouring this, she still sends out her sons to ask for support from the lords. So let's just call a spade a spade, the fight for the throne is an ego thing, not for any world-ending prophecy.
She shouldn’t back down because her inheritance was literally stolen from her, since she was named heir by her father.
I think she also feels she has to be the one or someone from her line has to be the one to defeat the White Walkers, since she knows about Aegon’s
@@FoxxyFatima And yet she still considered backing down to prevent an all-out dragon war in E9 (I think). In my opinion, both Green and Black have a legal claim to the throne. Rhaenyra is named heir by the previous monarch, and Aegon's claim is based on Andal and Valyrian laws and customs and precedent set since the time of Aegon the Conqueror. Again, Viserys created this problem.
And also I've always had an issue with Aegon's Dream and how it's spread. Passing it down only from King to heir seems faulty. Shouldn't more family members know so that in the case the King/heir dies early, they can pass it on still? I mean in the end, Rhaegar only knew about the prophecy because he literally accidentally found it in a book because he was a bookworm, no one told it to him.
Or hmm Maybe The greens should’ve stepped down and did what viserys been wanting for YEARS hmm 🤔
Viserys didn’t create the problem at all
@@Kevoooth 🤨? He literally married a second time and continued reproducing. He gave the realm OPTIONS, worse, SONS. If Alicent only had girls, Rhaenyra’s claim wont be challenged so easily. Do you think if Jeyne Arryn had a remaining, surviving brother she'd be Lady of the Eyrie? No hell no way. She only became Lady Paramount because she's the only one left of the main line. Unfortunately, Rhaenyra ain't the only one left of Viserys’s line.
The only issue I take because I’m trying to separate the book from the show because I’m a huge asoiaf fan and in the book, she actually did start the dance like her, her father, and Cole. However Viserys made the entire thing possible but she let Viserys rot in his chamber for over a week and imprisoned all the servants who found him…pretty sure they died, not sure but they were silenced , but her and Cole literally started the dance and used that week to usurp Nyra. But tbf technically Aemond started the dance, they had the war of the ravens but Aemond intentionally did what he did. I liked the deviation in the show, but in the book he shouted out his intent. But that’s in the book.
The problem that I have is in the show like on DriftMark during the funeral when aemond and Aegon are talking about his betrothal to Helaena and Aegon is ummm let’s say less than enthused 😂. Aemond literally tells him that he needs to show respect as *that will be his future Queen*. Who do you think they learned that from?
Like things have gotten really weird since Miguel left as he genuinely understood the universe, but in the book like I started out completely Team Black because of how evil the greens were and because the book is so biased against rhaenyra. However, by the end, I was angry and just felt nothing but complete sympathy for all the innocents, especially the children and thought about how stupidly preventable all of this was.
Viserys should have made rhaenyra and Aegon marry. Or when rhaenyra extended an olive branch by offering to Marry Jace and Helaena (which she (Helaena) would’ve genuinely been so much happier with) but Alicent won’t even hear about it. Although that would’ve guaranteed that her children would all have power in their own right and essentially drawn the family back together. He should’ve put his damn foot down and made it happen. Or abdicated instead of letting his wife rule and let Rhaenyra be Queen. Like that’s what so upsetting is how preventable all of this was.
But they’ve made a lot of changes in the show, and I like the show version of her. But the book version of her? Ive read a lot of books over the years and she’s in the top five of my most hated characters.
This is all my opinion. The show has not used a lot of source material and that’s what’s gotten a lot of book fans frustrated like of course on certain events You really don’t have material for, but some things have been good changes while others have been completely senseless. Alicent in the book has power and uses the hell out of it. Like in the end everyone’s evil and she gets the ending she deserves because honestly out of everyone I feel like she gets the most brutal ending. And I feel like that’s how George is trying to tell you how he feels about her because she played such a large role..
Alicent didn't start the war, Vhagar did.
King V ignored all his kids by alicent and then he ignored everything rhaenyra did wrong. U put a different house in the hightower place the same result would happen with rhaenyra being usurped.
When Aemond threatened to kill Jace/luke with a rock, why would anybody think he was being serious and not talking out of his ass due to anger? It seems silly to assume he would've fought them to death. Even from the other kids point of view, they could just run away. They were the ones that came up to Aemond.
Why wouldnt the other kids take Aemond seriously?
You are little child age 8, then boy stronger than you chokes you, says you will burn in flames and then he takes rock clearly intending to harm your brother... Yeah, I am SURE you would not assume your attacker has the malign intetions. 🙄🙄🙄🙄 It does not matter wheter Aemond wanted kill or only 'harm' Jace - he was ready to struck with rock. Luke acted as he should - and as any child who only wants protects his beloved brother would.
this is very weak defense tbh.
Him comparing Rhaena a pig, did start the physical fight 😬😔
@@SonderDAzeX Because kids dont just kill people all willy nilly? Its madness to kill someone over that. If they just went back, Aemond obviously wont have chased them round the castle with a rock in his hand ready to end their lives.
the thing is... they changed show runners and writers, it looks like the same show, but it isn't... the inconsistencies is because of that
Fantastic analysis of Alicent! You're right, Viserys was always the main villain of this story, looking forward to that video!
He was not. Alicent and Greens are. Sympathethic villains in show, but villains nonetheless.
Alicent is not solely responsible, but she played a major role...Alicient, along with her father, turned her sons into monsters...Aegon into a sexual deviant, and Aemond into a murderous psychopaths...She taught them to hate and Rhaenyra and her kids, and to disrespect house Targaryen...Simply by wearing green, and having her Targaryen monsters (minus Helena) do the same, Alicient played a major role in dismantling House Targaryen....She may be a bit regretful now because she can see the harm that she has done, but regret does not absolve her from responsibility.
nah, she did the best she could. she didnt grow up with love so she cant show it, but she made her kids into kings and queens. some kids just be bad.
also she didnt have a choice but to make her kids aware of how dangerous rhae was. this was only after rhae's kids blinded aemon ..and not only was rhae ok with it, she wanted aemond tortured('sharply questioned') while aemond was still bleeding
alicent wearing green came after rhae lied to her, thus causing otto to be sent away. thats when alicent realised she was on her own
alicent's part was telling a half lie about viserys dying wish. she heard what she wanted to hear...BUT otto was always going to install aegon without alicent..she was just doing what her dad expected of her
It's great to hear other perspectives. Otto started this war. I respect the love that you have for your girl Alicent Hightower.
I like all the TB characters, but this comment section just proves the fandom to be objectively less intelligent and super reactionary. YOU DONT HAVE TO PICK A SIDE, THEY ALL DO BAD SHIT.
Alicent projected her own fears on children. Rhaenyra - nor even Daemon - gave any indication Alicent's children would be harm. Daemon was dangerous but he never showed any animosity towrads his nephews until they started to conspire against Rhaenyra.
15:13 - There was no accountability because nothing was owed to Aemond. He was aggresor. Person in self-defense should never be held accountable. Aemond got what he deserved. Alicent should be horrified by what he tried to do and be thankful none demands to punish him for what he almost did to Jace. Alicent should realize she is reason why Aemond acted this way - and got eye gouged - and should from now try to repent. But she contiue undermining Rhaenyra.
thats stupid, daemon killed vaemond for saying the truth. he would kill them all eventually
well the greens are on the throne and therefore rhae is the aggressor
rhaenyra is the reason she's not on the throne
@@fasho387 Vaemond could not prove or disprove anynone's parentage and he had no right to tell anything Vaemond's - children were claimed by Laenor and only Laenor could legally denounce them. Laenor wanted Driftmark pass to Lucerys. With Laenor gone, children forever will be Velaryons. There was no legal way to chnage their status and Vaemond got what he deserved.
'he would kill them all ' - Thta is your presumption with no basis. Why Daemon would kill person who didn't oppose Rhaenyra?
Rhaenyra is not aggressor, she is rightful heir who fight back for what belong to her.
Brush Daemon literally ragged on Rhaenys for not wiping out Aegon’s line in season 2
@@MI-vc9lp That was after Aegon usurped throne. You have no evidence Daemon would act this way if Aegon and his siblings were loyal to Rhaenyra. 💁🏻♂
No matter who could've gotten the throne but it sure didn't belong to rhaynera. She never had the hunger for it neither she tried to prove herself to be fit. To get the throne before the kids were even born she never made a sacrifice and stayed true to it. So yeah I'm with you on this review
She might not have start it, but she endorsed it. If someone sees evil and does not protest, then they are complicit. She is as much responsible as Otto and Aegon.
rhae knew daemon ordered jahaerys to be killed and said nothing
You're 100% right
Delusional?
@@Kevoooth you're not even watching the show correctly. theres no good guys and bad guys here. rhae isnt the hero and alicent isnt the villain. but you wont get it until its spoon fed to you
@@fasho387 Rhaenyra is hero - flawed and problematic but hero nonethless - and Alicent is villain. She stole another woman inheritenc, she turned her children against their sister, she abused her own children and caused war that will kill all of them. There absolutely are bad guys in this story - and those are greens. There is zero reasons to support Greens, execpt misogyny. If you claiming there is 'no good side', then you are misogynist and it is you who don't waych show correctly.
@@pendragonsxskywalkers9518 LMAO! how is rhaenrya a hero? the lady who almost slept with her uncle, then used her bodyguard as a sex toy, dumped him and then went on to father bastard children, which would lead to war or at least many dead, one way or another. rhaenyra had an easy life, did whatever she wanted and still expects people to accept her just because her dad said so. no, the throne is for those worthy, its not an 'inheritance'
alicent had no choice but to warn her children, bcos rhae proved that she will save her ass at everyone else's expense (she lied on her mum's memory about having sex). alicent knows rhae isnt a hero either, and she has to protect her chidren. she was forced into that position. rhae chose to father bastards
Rhae doesnt 'deserve' the crown, she's done nothing to prove she does. you people dont even get the point of the story
@@pendragonsxskywalkers9518 rhaenyra is not fighting for women, she's fighting for herself. she's going to uphold the patriarchy as long as it benefits her
she just let a dozen bastards die and she would do it again and again
what kind of hero sacrifices dozens of ppl to gain a weapon?
rhae is no hero
Good take,I think there is a lot of Monday night quarterbacking ,I feel they both are overwhelmed in very intense and complex situations.
@_anastasiagracia_ I don't just blame Rhaenyra, but Otto (His scheming) and Criston Cole (I like him but he's violent, he's misogynistic, and he's vindictive) as well for the war. To add, Aemond too caused this mess and he's like Cole!
@_anastasiagracia_Rhaenyra may not have no character but Aegon 2, who I like, is a rapist, is a drunkard, and enjoys kids kill each other (even his own) to the death Alicent wants her son to rule??? To add, if she had supported Rhaenyra (Which she did before Viserys' death) Alicent and her family would be safe and no civil war!
True!
Her supporting her would not have changed a thing, as a matter of fact the Green council likely would have kept her confined to her apartment until all of TB was killed or captured, which almost undoubtedly would have happened if she had not been present.
Sure, she got the short end, and I feel sorry for her….but yes, yes she did. Raynera gave her a chance to say she was mistaken and she just decided to keep up the lie.
That wasn’t the only reason he named Rhaenyra heir.
He named her heir because he felt guilty for murdering her mother.
He was a shitty father when he only had 1 child and the same shitty father to the other 4 after
I don't agree with the analysis at all. Alicent is exactly what Rhaenyra called her "hiding behind the cloak of your own righteousness"
1. Since you spoke about Rhaenyra not morally fit to rule according to Alicent - Rhaenyra was married to a gay person. What do they expect? Her to not have kids? Not to have an heir? This won't weaken her claim? And Laenor and Corlys accepted Rhaenyra's kids as their heir, so how are they illegitimate? They are not accusing her. Its Alicent. And if Rhaenyra is morally wrong, then her rapist son is fit to rule???
2. Alicent felt betrayed when Rhaenyra lied to her about not loosing virginity. As I remember, Alicent first betrayed her by seducing her father behind her back. I don't think Rhaenyra could trust her again to tell her the truth.
3. Alicent talks bout virtue and character. Rhaenyra had sex with Harwin because her husband was gay. They actually talked about it in one scene where they tried to have kids but couldn't. Alicent is selling herself to Layrs for power and information while she is married to the king. How is this virtuous??? She sleeps with the kingsguard after her husband dies. Where are the kingsguards vows now? Where is the dowager queens sanctity? This is pure hypocrisy on Alicent's parts
4. She might not outrightly start the civil war, but she always poisoned her kids against Rhaenyra and her kids.
5. Yes her kid was permanently damaged and their was no accountability. But what could have been done? Would they take out Luce's eye like Alicent wanted? This was a fight between kids and Aemond is the one who started death threats first. He was not innocent is this. Alicent is getting a taste of it now when he removes her from the council.
6. It doesn't matter if she thinks she is a better ruler than Rhaenyra. She is not a Targaryen, its not her throne. Rhaenyra has never shown any signs of being a bad ruler. She cannot expect the legal chosen heir to leave the throne for her. Greens don't really have values. She was doing disgusting things with Layrs BEHIND VISERYS' BACK, covering up for her rapist son and being complicit in Lyonel and Harwin Strongs death. So no they don't have good values to rule
So we are blaming a 12-14 yo girl for seducing a grown king? A kid who got stomped 1v4 deserved to lose an eye? Deserved to get stabbed at first, because he said some words?
Team Black has 0 accountability for any wrong-doing. Rhanerya birthing bastards and causing a succession crises, not her fault. Her Kids taking out an eye and then asking for Aemond to be tortured for speaking the truth, Alicent's fault.
Blood and Cheese also not Team Black's fault too right?
Rhanerya breaks law and commits treason, and she's the victim. Alicent is exploited sexually by the men around her, and she's a mosnter. Aegon had to marry his freaking sister, but Laenor couldn't get Rhanerya preggers? okay...
Those kids are illegitmate, the entire world, Including Daemon in Essos knows. She is creating political disaster. She is incompetent af, her council knows this.
I would add that Rhaenyra actually didn't lie about her virginity, as Alicent wasn't asking about virginity, only about Daemon 😉 (Great counterpoints! 😘😘💓💖🖤🖤🖤🖤)
@@e-bo9115 It's not about Alivent 'seducing' king - it's about keeping secret from Rhaenyra. She could say 'Your father want me to talk with him, I don't know what to think, is itokay with you?'.
Rhaneyra does not have any bastard, all her children are legally legitimate. Where exactly is sucession crisis? because the only ones who can actually be againts Velaryon boys are their yoinger half-brother... and while they are very young n show, in Aegon nor Viserys are around 10 and neither ever voiced they want throne ahead of their half-brothers. Do argument null and void.
"Her Kids taking out an eye" - After Aemond attempted to kill Jacaerys, do not forget it. It was SELF-DEFENSE.
' for speaking the truth' - Aemond was not speaking truth. Legaly his nephews are legitimate, only Rhaenyra's husbandr has right to question this. Aemond is not her husband.
@@e-bo9115 Blood and Chese would neevr happened if Aemond di not kill Luke.
"Rhanerya breaks law and commits treason" - How exactly?
" and she's the victim" - Yes, she is. She was usurped. Not Alicent.
@@e-bo9115 'Aegon had to marry his freaking sister' - No, he di not have to. Alicent demanded he did. She abused both of her children. Are you really defend this?!!!!
I am gay man - I find utterly despicable you deamdn gay should should be force to sleep with women. NONE ever should.
18:48 - Viserys asked them to reconcile MULTIPLE times. He asbolutely saw things and trie dto prevent war but there is limited things one can do. He tried for them to leave in peace, he even oredered to be his sons and Velaryon boys to be raised together. But Alicent was constantly undermining her stepgrandchildren, runing Viserys's plan. Stop excusing her. It's easy for you to blame man who died without knowing future. Alicent is responsible for her own choices. Viserys made clear many times what his opinion is and even if he wasn't so affectionate towards his younger children liek to Rhaneyra, he declared during his last supper he loves them and wants both family faction to co-exist. Alicent decide to disregard this, instead of hiding Aegon from Otto.
rhae made bastard kids and viserys pretended not to know. its their fault
@@fasho387 None can prove they are bastards in legal way. Only Laenor could denounce children - him and only him.
They really assassinated Alicent character in season 2 episode 8. I lost a lot of respect for the character after that.
I think you made some good points, but they are very few. Yes, Alicent does not hold 100% responsibility for starting the dance/war, but to say that she did nothing wrong is just so very blind.
A big point is people who side with Alicent/the greens and yell that Rhaenyra's sons are bastards seem to forget that we, the audience, know that they are bastards because we are watching the show through "God" or a bird's eye point of view. The audience knows because we saw Harwin and Rhaenyra together with Laenor and them talking about the children. Alicent and the greens DOES NOT KNOW THIS. They do not have any proof, and it's all just rumors and speculations, and half of those rumors and speculations came out of the greens themselves. SO, when they do not know the truth, AND when the KING, the LORD HUSBAND, and the LORD OF THE TIDES, all agree and say her three sons are legitimate, that Jace is heir to the throne after Rhaenyra, that Luke is heir to driftmark after Laenor/Corlys, THEN THEY ARE FREAKING LEGITIMATE AND THERES NO QUESTION ABOUT IT. So, Alicent and the greens DO NOT have every right to question their legitimacy because nothing they say can be proved, and they don't know the truth.
Don't call yourself "technically team black" when you cannot see or understand this simple fact.
Wrong - Lord Strong literally says to Harwin "Your intimacy with the Princess Rhaenyra is an offence that would mean exile and death, for you, for her and for the children", the literal Hand and former Master of Laws correctly calls out that Harwin and Rhaenyra are committing treason. And literally everyone can tell that Luke, Jace and Joffrey are born outside of marriage (which is the definition of being bastard), people snigger and gossip about them in the courtyard in EP 7. Lord Strong tells this to Harwin "people have eyes boy".
Viserys makes things worse by threatening to cut out the tongues of those who question the legitimacy of Rhaenyra's kids. Any leader - king or queen - who has to use violent force to silence dissent is hiding something. They are an emperor with no clothes. And then Vaemond shouts the obvious at court, in a room full of players and powerful nobles. So there's more than enough suspicion that Rhaenyras white ass kids are not fathered by Laenor (who people now also suspect has been killed by Rhaenyra to marry Daemon)
All this functions to weaken Rhaenyra's legitimacy as a ruler - her job is to uphold the law and serve the realm by maintaining a royal line of succession to ensure stability. She is not above the law, tradition or duty. So if one day she makes a ruling that pisses of a noble house, Septon or powerful Lord, the obvious illegitimacy of her kids can be used as a weapon against her to rally support in favour of her three trueborn brothers. I don't blame Rhaenyra for falling in love and having a good sex life, but sacrificing desire as a king or queen is apart of the burden of ruling .
What do you mean it can't be proved? If we're talking about the show it couldn't be more obvious that they are bastards because as their own not-grandfather Lyonel Strong said to Harwin "People have eyes" and they could see and put 2 and 2 together that a black silver-haired man and white silver-haired woman having 3 white brown-haired kids is kinda suspicious and you don't need a dna test to understand something like that. Heck, even Daemon asked about boy resembling Harwin and Daemon was living ON ANOTHER CONTINENT for years, do you think Alicent specifically traveled to Essos to "spread the rumors " or did she sent him a letter? If it was okay for lords to make any random unrelated kid their heir (there was no such thing as adoption, only blood mattered), like Corlys wanted to do, what would stop them from disinheriting legitimate candidates they just didn't like, for example? if any lord did anything he wants there would be chaos
they're known bastards and its treason. pls dont lie that it cant be proven. people have eyes
Also the supposed bastards were remembered as Velaryons so all the Greens whining meant nothing in the end.
@@Milwaukhehe Jace, Joffrey and Luke are not "supposed bastards", by every definition of the word in Westeros, they are illegitimate. That doesn't make them bad or unworthy (it's not their fault and legitimacy is ultimately a construct) it just means Rhaenyra broke the law, endangering their lives and stability in the realm.
How they're remembered is irrelevant (also F&B repeatedly questions their legitimacy so no they're not remembered by everyone as Velayrons) the Greens have a valid point: trying to pass obvious bastards as heirs when legitimate and competing claims exists threatens stability. Cersei pullled a Rhaenyra over a century later and it started the War of the Five Kings
Does anyone still watch the Handmaid's Tale? Alicent gives me Serena Joy, who also wore green which was significant of her status as the wife of a Commander. Serena was also responsible for the creation of Gilead, its policies, and the government. However, shortly after it's conception, Serena was voted off the board of her own foundation because of her gender. Before the creation of Gilead, she was a woman of power and had the tenacity her husband did not display in his own career. Her fall from grace was loud and no matter how hard she fought, she found herself at the mercy of the same women she helped condemn.
Well yeah, she didnt start the Dance of Dragons. Otto supplanted Alicent, we know this. Alicent just gotten jealous and Resentful of RHaenyra.
I don't think she was ever jealous of Rhaenyra. Just hateful..
@@severussnapeytp715 She was jealous that Rhaenyra had courage to find love, whereas Alicent never had courage to do herself.
@@pendragonsxskywalkers9518 Loving her uncle, a known domestic abuser who bashed his wife head open with a rock.
@@pendragonsxskywalkers9518 lmao! stop lying. yes she was jeaous but of rhaes freedom
rhae never 'had courage to find love'. she abused her power to force cole to sleep with her, then she dumped him. then she married for political power. no love here. she's a user
@@fasho387 Rhaenyra never ordered Cole to do anything he would not wanted and she also never broke up with him - she wanted continue this relationship. It was Cole who broke with her. ' then she married for political power.' - I was talking about Harwin. Alicent saw results of LOVE relationship Rhaenyra had and envied this - that Rhaenyra has courage to have husband and lover, while Alicent doesn't.
I agree wholeheartedly. Also, Rhaenyera resented her siblings . They are Alicents kids to her. Though much-much more likeable, Rhaenyra mirrors Cersie L. But it wasn't ok when Cersie did it. The writer like to play with our perception of good and bad as well.
Don't get me started on the prophecy.
Rhaenyra does not mirror Cersei. 'it wasn't ok when Cersie did it' - No idea what you meant.. If you meant children, then Cesei betrayed Robert, while Rhaenyra did not betrayed Laenor - he was fully aware of things and he acknowledged children nonethless.
'Rhaenyra resented her siblings' - Book Rhaneyra yes, in show there is zero evidence of it until Aemond try to kill her son. And Rhaenyra resenting her sibling does not justify Greens taking away her crown.
yeah, Cersei's golden haired children inspired Stannis & Renly to challenge the throne. Ned had many other reasons to not like Cersie but because this is how the structure of society works in this game, he didn't see them as heirs. The fans & characters in the show called Cersei kids illegitimate.
In this story it's Rhenerya, who is the legitimate Heir to the throne. She's not so dislikable, she has a dragon, she's cool. She has affairs with her kings guards & has a thing for her uncle. She even kills her husband to marry her uncle to amend mistakes & strengthen her legitimacy (in the Show they fake the death). Cersei has her husband killed - she hated him but she was also afraid of the repercussions of her secrets being exposed.
The scene where they appeal to King Viserys after the kids fight (when aemon loses his eye) even mirrors the scene where they appeal to King Robert after the kids fight (when Joeffry is bitten). Emphasis on how much Rhaenyra loves her children - just like Cersei. Rhaenyra even has a son named Joeffry.
All of this happens before a woman,
Cersie, will become Queen of Westeros. There are other similarities but no spoilers. I don't dislike Rhaenyra. I would be a Bastard in this world. Heck, in the Real world as well. 🤷🏽♀️ This is just my own personal objective observation.
Alicent and Caitlyn (much more likable) seem to mirror each other to me. Caitlyn, who was very traditional and prudent, also very bitterly hated Jon Snow and Jace looks like him. & she had her Littlefinger like Larys.
Sorry - i am one of those who can't summarize my comments well. 🤐
@@TheCoconutKangaroo| Correction: Rhaenyra never killed Laenor.
How did she resent her siblings? Remind me again?
@@TheCoconutKangaroo ' The fans & characters in the show called Cersei kids illegitimate. ' - They absolutely should not. Ned and Stannis could not legally prove her children paternity. Using hair colour is laughbale. Thankfully, I haven't watch GoT so I don't have any wrapped and twisted sentiment towrads Ned and Stannis and I am calling them what they were: traitors to the crown. If I ever read about them in historical book I would think they were power hungry ambitious men who uesed lame excuse to supplant rightful heirs. None can rpves in this world paternity. The only person who has right to recogniz eor denounce children is presumed father - any chance to de-legitimze Joffrey and his siblings was goen in moment Robert took his last breath. Ned could disclosed information to Robert, but he never, so he should sit quiet. (And Cersei's situation is completely different since she lied to Robert, while Rhaenyra did not lie to Laenor, they made agreement.)
Oh my god, I’m in enemy territory help
Welcome to the side of Aegon the Unbroken
@@e-bo9115 You mean Aegon the Indolent alias Aegon the Incompetnet. So youa re not gonna felle sorry for 'spoiler dragon lady who doe snot control her husband' like Rhaneyra... yet you do support guy who abuses women, abuses his wife, bully his brother, is so lame he is unable to keep this brother's loyalty, is incompetnet and uneducated drinker, has zero political skils and is also dragon lord born into privilege? Your hypocrisy is showing 😂😂😂😂😂😂
Team black are the bad guys
@@elmatador81 Rhaenyra is rightful heir to the Iron throne. Greens started war by staeling her crown because of her gende and killing her uspporter and Prince Lycerys. Unless you are in support taking away women rights because they are born women, Greens are clearly bad guys and Tema Black are good guys.
Rhae sacrificed dozens of people for a dragon, is this your queen
Rhaenyra did not lie to Alicent - Alicent asked her about Daemon and Rhaenyra told her truth. Yes, Rhaenyra was not completely honest, but neither was Alicent when she hid from her friend she is seeing her father. Alicent should have more understanding and compassione towards Rhaenyra, especially Alicent JUST regained her favour - it is obvious Rhaenyra had trust issues with her stepmother and Queen should be able to understand it. Trueth - she wanted Cole for herself and this is why it all happened: because she couldn't have him herself and became bitter Rhaenyra had him.
Honestly theres so much more to be said even beyond this video. Alicent is incredibly deep and imo to be truly understood and empathized with you NEED to view her from a perspective of gender politics and in some cases even the lesbian lens is needed for contextualizing her actions surrounding rhaenyra. The vast amount of people misunderstanding alicent almost always miss these two areas.
12:50 - Velaryon boys are legally legitimate. Period. You cannot prove child is 'illegitimate' in this world. If you could, Stannis wouldn't have to wage war, becuase he would be able simple present evidence why he is rightful heir; he wasn't able because was no hard evidence to present. Same with wit Aenys Targaryen - people were whispering he was bastard, but Aegon claimed him as his legitimate son and that was it. And why do you think neither Maegor and Visenya never used argument about Aenys potentially being illiegitimate, when they usurped Aeny's children? Because they both knew they aren't able to legally prove anything - and even if they proclaim such, people would gonna believe in what they want to belive (meaning: what currently align with their politics).
Yes her and her father did cause they were power hungry and too dumb to realise that as hand of the king they already had all the power they needed. Every dragon rider was on Rhaenyra's side before they started their shit ergo she would have become Queen uncontested and those that stood in the way would have had no dragons and would have been burnt.
Otto did but Alicent wanted to call the whole thing off by Episode 8, saying Rhaenyra's the true queen.
Her son r'd somebody. I'd get if if she had another moral candidate but not him
well, she did in the books and nobody can change that, just George R.R.M.
Laenor was gay, so what could’ve Rhaenyra done?
!!!! Speak on it
Aegon had to marry his sister, and still had kids. Laenor tried 3 times and gave up.
Do you think gay men are unable to have children?
@@e-bo9115 So just because Aegon was forced marry his sister it means okay to force another couple to sleep with each other when Laenor is clearly okay with his stepchildren being his heirs? 🤨 You statement is incredible disrespectfuly. It is actually bizzare that you think it is okay to demand from people to sleep with each other instead of PRAISING Rhaenyra and Laenor for finding way around his.
@@pendragonsxskywalkers9518 Her “work-around” was so brazen that people in Essos knew they were batards, it caused instability and part of the reason some people turn Green.
I will not feel sorry for a feudal dragon lord that had her chance to pick anyone to marry. She gains the privilege of Nobility, and her choice to do whatever she wants with her dragon. She would, as ruler, punish anyone who broke laws she already broke. Spoiled monarch who doesn’t even know how to fight or control her husband or council.
13:04 - Yeah, it's crime but one that cannot be proven. 🤷🏻♂
15:38 - But Alicent's character is mean to be misogynistic.
rhae has twice now abused her power to sleep with cole and kiss mysaria
No. You've really missed the point
@@fasho387 She did not abuse power. Cole and Mysaria were willing participants. You are delusional.
@@MI-vc9lp I am not missing anything. Alicent is misogynistic and self-hating woman. That is how she was written.
What about the scene when A demanded to see Rs baby immediately after child birth…. Forcing her to drag herself still bleeding. Or when she was outting her children after being warned it endangered them and R. And even her own children as evidenced by them repeating it.
What about when Rae calls for her preteen brother to be tortured because he said the word "bastard" when her son already cut his eye out
no one forced rhaenyra to go up the stairs she asked for the child not rhaenyra. Rhaenyra outed her own children by having a kid who doesnt look black lol
Rhaenyra having children with Harwin when her husband wa sunbale does not show her 'unfitness' - quite opposite, it shows she was fit, as she was cunning and able to got heirs and present them legitimate. Catherine the Great did the same - and she not only became powrful ruler fro decades, but she was chosen by her people as such; they preffered mother of bastards who wa soutside of dynasty than her incompetent husband who was true heir. And her descendants are known today as Romanovs even if most likely they were not. Infertile coupld have to find their way to get heirs and people do not care about true paternity as long as ruler is astute enough to retain their authority.
rhae isnt fit to be queen and everyone knows it. a mother of bastards cant rule
@@fasho387 Yes, she is fit. "mother of bastards cant rule" - Tell this to Cleopatra the Great and Catherine the Great. Both prove to be effective rulesr who reigned for decades. (Also: father of bastrds can rule? 😂😂😂😂😂😂)
Great video! It summarizes pretty much what I, (and a lot of ppl too I believe) think about her character.
A "lot of people' sadly are misogynists. But it won't change facts - Alicent is a villain of this story and she helped to started Dance, even if she was not only coulprit.
I never said she wasn't a villain but ppl are too quick to jump and hate her just because "stan queen rhaenyra" or whatever. Both characters were completely watered down from their books counterparts and its just sad.
Rhaenyra did not lie to Alicent - Alicent asked her about Daemon and Rhaenyra told her truth. Yes, Rhaenyra was not completely honest, but neither was Alicent when she hid from her friend she is seeing her father. Alicent should have more understanding and compassione towards Rhaenyra, especially Alicent JUST regained her favour - it is obvious Rhaenyra had trust issues with her stepmother and Queen should be able to understand it. Trueth - she wanted Cole for herself and this is why it all happened: because she couldn't have him herself and became bitter Rhaenyra had him.
rhae lied and alicent never showed anything to indicate she wanted cole
@@fasho387 Rhae told truth - she did not sleep with Daemon - and please watch episode 1, it's clear Alicent is hot for Cole.
@pendragonsxskywalkers9518 Bruh all Alicent said was that she was Dornish. And telling half-truths is still lying
@@MI-vc9lp She didn't have to say more - it was clear from way she looked at him, and season 2 confirmed attraction between them. Alicent always wanted him.
Easy for you to judge Rhaenyra when you were never in her position... She told truth. Alicent lost her trust when she hid before Princess she is seeing her father. Alicent should not expect Rhaenyra to now tell her everything. Alicent was not trusting Rhaenyra and now Rhaneyra should trust her?
@@pendragonsxskywalkers9518 that doesnt mean she was lusting after him. they interacted a few times after n nothing showed she wanted him. they only had an affair way later because they trauma bonded over several things including rhae, not that she ever wanted him like that
Rhaenyra lied by omitting the truth but whats important was alicent had been trying to reconcile with rhae ever since she was wed to her father. but at this moment alicent knew she was on her own