I figured thats what was happening, I have had the same thing happen to me over and over since the nerfs. The torp needs to travel 3km + the arming distance . If the ship is angled towards you or you angled towards the target you have to allow atleast 1km more to be safe 2km more. send out 4 torps, 1 to the far lft of the target 2 in the center area and 1 to the far right of the target. Wait till the torps are around 1/2 way to target or even 3/5 before pinging target. The torps will try to center on the ping lock point but because speed is the same but now distance is different between the 3 groups, they will work well even if janking speed, hitting the reverse or tuning in or out, yes you will probably miss 1 or 2 but you will get hits, dont double ping it will simply give them you location and speed and direction in general. If your good at reading the mini map and understand the turn in or out tactics, dont use ping at ll and just move around in circles spamming torps every 30 seconds, it annoys the hell out of surface ship players. I think that they have swung the pendulum a way to far to the brutal nerfs end of things and would like to see a more centric change. Rather than DCP use for clearing pings have a free, unlimited consumable with a brief cooldown eg 45 secs or 60 secs, call them noisemakers / cavitators, they are really and existed in WW2 just for use against subs. They were cans filled with a someone like a gas that when dropped in water would push the gas out of a off center hole in the cap causing the cans to spin in the water, this would sometimes, if dropped at the right time confuse the torp into thinking it was the subs screws making noise in the water. WG just needs to base the effectiveness via RNG, yes or no per torp homing the target. To make it even fairer, low tier get 1 at a time, mid tier can launch 2 at a time and high tier can launch 3 at a time. Remove ping indicator on surface except the ship targeted, its not fair that everyone can see something that is invisible in reality. Sub surveillance only works to 2nd last depth, lowest depth is subs safe harbor ( thermal layer interference ) yes, it to was used to deflect underwater tracking of subs, no depth charge can go that deep no sonar radar or anything other than a submarine search even then only sub can see underwater the enemy sub. Subs cant launch from the lowest depth either, at the lowest depth, torps cant be loaded because of a rule, RUN SILENT. They must be at periscope or surface depth. maneuvering
single ping is a general lock and are moderately easy to evade via maneuvering, dbl ping lock is more aggressive lock and maneuvering alone will not break tracking,
@@normalguyofthenorth hey, you may be onto something, if it takes 3.1km to reach the surface, is that a workaround shot gun move, go max depth, wait for oncomiing target at 4kms, ping, launch. regardless of target distance away, if torps still need to travel over 3.1km you could still be right underneath almost and get full damage. Maybe test that and see if it works
You fired at 3.7km for the most part, but the enemy ship is moving towards you either straight or at an angle (depending on the clip). This means the torp hasn't travel 3km most likely by the time it hits because the ship closed the distance. Therefore, it is working as intended.
Unfortunely this is not how WG explained it to the community. But since I have real world experience with this I thought it might happen. Thanks for watching
Its not a bug according to Wargaming, we only see the distance from our camera the center of our ship the torps come out of the front and are measured from there. Maybe do some testing with a still bb and lets get some numbers of how much to add in to shot.
Faster torps will allow you to get closer and slower torps will require launch from further away if the ship is coming towards the sub, when aiming at broadside ships issue is just staying back a touch over 3k. This is something we all exploit where a ship coming at you can be torped outside your range when you launch, you take advantage of the distance the ship will travel while your fish are in the water. Fighting subs - knife fighting at close range will be rather tame. Knowing ship speeds is important to running the math.
This same effect can be used to get even more range out of your torps, though it also works against you if you are having torps chase a target. It is not a "problem" with torps, nor an issue specific to subs, but a miss-understanding of how the torpedo ranges are calculated. This particular effect is true for projectiles in general. Meaning your gun ranges are also affected by the target closing or moving away from you based on the travel times of your rounds. Granted the game adjusts a few parameters for how your shells interact with a target you are aiming at, you can still use this effect to some degree with guns with targets just outside of your ranges. It is just more difficult to achieve proper hits with it.
So, in other words, completely defenseless in close quarters DD’s and cruisers will have a field day chasing down a sub WG just made sub gameplay from the 10 - 12km (max torp) distance
thanks. I think they have crippled Subs to much ... and especially sub vs sub engagement is pointless now ... this patch did not fix anything, Sub game is still broken just differently
It appears WG added in the targets movement into their equation to lessen the damage inflicted by the torpedoes. They're calculating the closing rate (time and distance) into the firing solution of the firing sub. What this ultimately means is the firing sub will have to fire their torpedoes at 1.5 to 2 times the distance they normally would in order to get maximum damage results. Conversely, the firing sub cannot launch their torpedoes at 3+ km and expect to obtain maximum damage even with a full broadside exposed because TMA (target motion analysis) of the target change the CPA from moving away to closing which would nullify the torpedoes damage. I believe, I could be wrong, based on the wording of the changes, centers on the location of the firing sub. So, launching from 5 or 6 km should allow for maximum damage. Remember, they are trying to keep submarines of doing what they did tactically in real world combat. That is closing within 1,200 yards and firing a linear spread while submerged or on the surface at night. I'm of the opinion their "changes" did in fact doubled nerfed the torpedoes and the launching ship as everyone is focusing on "torpedoes must travel 3+ km for maximum damage" and not focus on the fact the sub's actual distance from the target allowing for the torpedoes to travel that range even if they turned into the oncoming torpedoes.
If the target doesn't turn (which it certainly will on a ping), the aiming projection's intersection with the target's heading will give range. A 3 km circle on the mini-map might be handy.
The torpedo has to *travel* the minimum distance, whereas the distance you fire at is the distance at the moment of launch... if the target is racing toward you at high speed, it will cover much of that moment-of-launch distance before the torpedo can and therefore the torpedo will not have travelled as far and may not have fully armed. This ought to be obvious. Conversely, if you are close behind a target that is racing *away* from you at high speed (perhaps a Paolo Emilio at full speed with speed flag and engine boost), and your torps have to overhaul her before they hit, its possible that they will have travelled far enough to fully arm.
With PE scenario it's over 6KM LOL LOL. It does depend on the ship. I also feel the average player will not understand and will complain about it. Thanks for watching
thats the fact the most people ignored when they said this nerf isnt hard enough. At the end if the day, subs have to wait for BBs sailing away from them to settle down a halfway secure attack. imho WG burried most of the sub damage against experienced Enemys. This nerf is hard
You're experiment is inaccurate. You did not fire in at exactly 3km, remember both of you are closing the distance at each other. You will need to consider server lag/sync issues. What you should have done is have both of you at a stationary position on the range you are testing
what he means to be saying the torpedo has not traveled the distance shown in the game UI elements, because of the closing ranges continue to grow smaller, the torpedo has only traveled 2 and some change km and was not able to arm yet. the side effect of this also allows you to fire 9.5 km range torpedos at something closing in to you at like 10.5 km provided they dont stop. The duration of travel range is for the torpedo and does not account for motion of the target.
I think you should also factor the 400m arming distance of the torp. So to reach max damage you should have launch it at 3.4km on a target that is not closing to you, nor the sub closing into the target
I did not quite break it down like that. I did notice that if anything got within that range if I was in a sub, I had to try to ram the vessel to have any chance of living through that fight. That was in every sub but the I-56 which faired amazingly well along with the alliance being a close second thanks to its fast reloading slow torps. In the case of the I-56, the I-56 became a holy terror to submarines once I close in and shot them with my Deck guns. when I did use torps. they were so fast the damage added up. I was able to scare away a DD because of that. Still thro.... Subs are soooo nerfed that there is no point of playing a sub until they undo that torp thing unless you like being food to the other ships class who do not seem to care. I removed wow from my computer and I shall wait. I am waiting for them to go after the DD's again. It just a matter of time.
I know for months I've been launching well beyond "torpedo range" if I have a closing target and just rolled the dice on whether or not I was guessing the speed correctly. This appears to be the flip side of that, applied to their anti-shotgunning damage tweaks?
This nerfs are excactly what the big amount of crying bb players requested. When you get rushed in your subs, you are defensless. So the only solution is to keep enough distance. 8 to 10km should give you enough space to retreat and to stay out of range from the ships with sub survilance.
I stated a while ago, maybe one of Normal Guys' vids concerning this update that this may well end up costing WG money and players all because they wanted to silence the squeaking wheel.
What gets me is the stats show there the most balanced line in the game, WG if you want to nerf something please start with the Malta...LOL. Thanks for watching.
Looks like a great change to me. This unimplementary class gets nerfed to a point where you need to act smart in order to get great damage with the increased torp damage. Of course 95% of people will deal no damage and kill themselves within 3 minutes but hey more skill involvement always good for pvp games. Imagine that a sub player now has to think like a destroyer before torping enemies. I like it and 3km travelingtime is not much if that is the threshold. So they actually removed shotgunning then i guess.
Shot gunning is nerfed well beyond 3km, that said the average player will do even worse but the good players will adapt and go back to killing out right. Thanks for watching
I think normal guy of the north is being nice to you. This would be like taking torps on surface ships and making them doing 10% damage at like 2 or 3km or less. How many destroyers get kills from going point blank. You wouldn't be okay with that. This was a hard nerf as not everyone is a unicum player. Torps should arm within 2km. I find that's typical underwater sub vs sub engagements. Or...to be fair ... make surface ship torps take longer to arm too....and depth charge planes longer refresh...not this 20 second stuff or whatever it is. Fyi im a cruiser player mostly. I am not even remotely scared of subs now.
For subs that only get acoustic torps, the one other remotely enjoyable playstyle got destroyed, so itll just be the same EU DD style torpboating with occasional sonar hits, the thing that was complained about when subs first dropped iirc At least give them some usable conventional torps, sheesh
Not true, I still consider this as a buff. Think of it, subs getting their own Coal Modules and other equipment dedicated to subs, which mitigates damage, reduce cooldowns. And then there is also a buff to its movement speed overall. The only sub mostly affected by this is the Gato gameplay of shotgunning very close range
I appreciate the statement. But i think features 4501 has right now, are far from ideal. Battle effectiveness of subs reduced to underwater research ship. You just enjoy beautiful reefs and marine panorama, while other player are beating the crap out of you. @@saintchai20
Sooo all that time and money invested to get good subs... it's just crap now... for a casual player like me... Oh well... time to take my time and money elsewhere after 5 years playing.
I figured thats what was happening, I have had the same thing happen to me over and over since the nerfs. The torp needs to travel 3km + the arming distance . If the ship is angled towards you or you angled towards the target you have to allow atleast 1km more to be safe 2km more. send out 4 torps, 1 to the far lft of the target 2 in the center area and 1 to the far right of the target. Wait till the torps are around 1/2 way to target or even 3/5 before pinging target. The torps will try to center on the ping lock point but because speed is the same but now distance is different between the 3 groups, they will work well even if janking speed, hitting the reverse or tuning in or out, yes you will probably miss 1 or 2 but you will get hits, dont double ping it will simply give them you location and speed and direction in general. If your good at reading the mini map and understand the turn in or out tactics, dont use ping at ll and just move around in circles spamming torps every 30 seconds, it annoys the hell out of surface ship players.
I think that they have swung the pendulum a way to far to the brutal nerfs end of things and would like to see a more centric change. Rather than DCP use for clearing pings have a free, unlimited consumable with a brief cooldown eg 45 secs or 60 secs, call them noisemakers / cavitators, they are really and existed in WW2 just for use against subs. They were cans filled with a someone like a gas that when dropped in water would push the gas out of a off center hole in the cap causing the cans to spin in the water, this would sometimes, if dropped at the right time confuse the torp into thinking it was the subs screws making noise in the water. WG just needs to base the effectiveness via RNG, yes or no per torp homing the target. To make it even fairer, low tier get 1 at a time, mid tier can launch 2 at a time and high tier can launch 3 at a time. Remove ping indicator on surface except the ship targeted, its not fair that everyone can see something that is invisible in reality. Sub surveillance only works to 2nd last depth, lowest depth is subs safe harbor ( thermal layer interference ) yes, it to was used to deflect underwater tracking of subs, no depth charge can go that deep no sonar radar or anything other than a submarine search even then only sub can see underwater the enemy sub.
Subs cant launch from the lowest depth either, at the lowest depth, torps cant be loaded because of a rule, RUN SILENT. They must be at periscope or surface depth.
maneuvering
single ping is a general lock and are moderately easy to evade via maneuvering, dbl ping lock is more aggressive lock and maneuvering alone will not break tracking,
I basically never use a ping. You can launch torps at max depth but remember it takes 3.1 KM for them to rise to the surface. Thanks for watching
@@normalguyofthenorth hey, you may be onto something, if it takes 3.1km to reach the surface, is that a workaround shot gun move, go max depth, wait for oncomiing target at 4kms, ping, launch. regardless of target distance away, if torps still need to travel over 3.1km you could still be right underneath almost and get full damage. Maybe test that and see if it works
Ya I need to retest this. Thanks for watching
😮😊
You fired at 3.7km for the most part, but the enemy ship is moving towards you either straight or at an angle (depending on the clip). This means the torp hasn't travel 3km most likely by the time it hits because the ship closed the distance. Therefore, it is working as intended.
Unfortunely this is not how WG explained it to the community. But since I have real world experience with this I thought it might happen. Thanks for watching
Its not a bug according to Wargaming, we only see the distance from our camera the center of our ship the torps come out of the front and are measured from there. Maybe do some testing with a still bb and lets get some numbers of how much to add in to shot.
😊
weird that hes having such a tough time understanding a 3k arming distance.
Ya the pain is real with this nerf. Thanks for watching
Faster torps will allow you to get closer and slower torps will require launch from further away if the ship is coming towards the sub, when aiming at broadside ships issue is just staying back a touch over 3k. This is something we all exploit where a ship coming at you can be torped outside your range when you launch, you take advantage of the distance the ship will travel while your fish are in the water. Fighting subs - knife fighting at close range will be rather tame. Knowing ship speeds is important to running the math.
In my testing so far I'm finding you really need t be way more than 3km away for the torp to do max damage. Thanks for watching
This same effect can be used to get even more range out of your torps, though it also works against you if you are having torps chase a target.
It is not a "problem" with torps, nor an issue specific to subs, but a miss-understanding of how the torpedo ranges are calculated.
This particular effect is true for projectiles in general.
Meaning your gun ranges are also affected by the target closing or moving away from you based on the travel times of your rounds.
Granted the game adjusts a few parameters for how your shells interact with a target you are aiming at, you can still use this effect to some degree with guns with targets just outside of your ranges.
It is just more difficult to achieve proper hits with it.
Agreed and thanks for watching
So, in other words, completely defenseless in close quarters
DD’s and cruisers will have a field day chasing down a sub
WG just made sub gameplay from the 10 - 12km (max torp) distance
I agree, especially with Sub surveillance, which is killing a lot of sub players. Thanks for watching
thanks. I think they have crippled Subs to much ... and especially sub vs sub engagement is pointless now ... this patch did not fix anything, Sub game is still broken just differently
I do agree with you. Thanks for watching
It appears WG added in the targets movement into their equation to lessen the damage inflicted by the torpedoes. They're calculating the closing rate (time and distance) into the firing solution of the firing sub. What this ultimately means is the firing sub will have to fire their torpedoes at 1.5 to 2 times the distance they normally would in order to get maximum damage results. Conversely, the firing sub cannot launch their torpedoes at 3+ km and expect to obtain maximum damage even with a full broadside exposed because TMA (target motion analysis) of the target change the CPA from moving away to closing which would nullify the torpedoes damage.
I believe, I could be wrong, based on the wording of the changes, centers on the location of the firing sub. So, launching from 5 or 6 km should allow for maximum damage. Remember, they are trying to keep submarines of doing what they did tactically in real world combat. That is closing within 1,200 yards and firing a linear spread while submerged or on the surface at night. I'm of the opinion their "changes" did in fact doubled nerfed the torpedoes and the launching ship as everyone is focusing on "torpedoes must travel 3+ km for maximum damage" and not focus on the fact the sub's actual distance from the target allowing for the torpedoes to travel that range even if they turned into the oncoming torpedoes.
Your spot on. Thanks for watching
You need to calculate the side od triangle, not straight line to ship. And also, ship is moving in time, so can shorten the distance as well.
If the target doesn't turn (which it certainly will on a ping), the aiming projection's intersection with the target's heading will give range. A 3 km circle on the mini-map might be handy.
I think to add it would be nice to have some indicator to tell the average player the torp will only do 10% damage. Thanks for watching
I'm just keeping it simple for the masses. Thanks for watching
The torpedo has to *travel* the minimum distance, whereas the distance you fire at is the distance at the moment of launch... if the target is racing toward you at high speed, it will cover much of that moment-of-launch distance before the torpedo can and therefore the torpedo will not have travelled as far and may not have fully armed. This ought to be obvious. Conversely, if you are close behind a target that is racing *away* from you at high speed (perhaps a Paolo Emilio at full speed with speed flag and engine boost), and your torps have to overhaul her before they hit, its possible that they will have travelled far enough to fully arm.
With PE scenario it's over 6KM LOL LOL. It does depend on the ship. I also feel the average player will not understand and will complain about it. Thanks for watching
thats the fact the most people ignored when they said this nerf isnt hard enough. At the end if the day, subs have to wait for BBs sailing away from them to settle down a halfway secure attack. imho WG burried most of the sub damage against experienced Enemys. This nerf is hard
It is hard. Thanks for watching
You're experiment is inaccurate. You did not fire in at exactly 3km, remember both of you are closing the distance at each other. You will need to consider server lag/sync issues. What you should have done is have both of you at a stationary position on the range you are testing
what he means to be saying
the torpedo has not traveled the distance shown in the game UI elements, because of the closing ranges continue to grow smaller, the torpedo has only traveled 2 and some change km and was not able to arm yet.
the side effect of this also allows you to fire 9.5 km range torpedos at something closing in to you at like 10.5 km provided they dont stop. The duration of travel range is for the torpedo and does not account for motion of the target.
I think you should also factor the 400m arming distance of the torp. So to reach max damage you should have launch it at 3.4km on a target that is not closing to you, nor the sub closing into the target
Spot on. Thanks for watching
@@saintchai20So does the arming distance count or not count? IS max damage 3 or 3.4 km then?
I did not quite break it down like that. I did notice that if anything got within that range if I was in a sub, I had to try to ram the vessel to have any chance of living through that fight. That was in every sub but the I-56 which faired amazingly well along with the alliance being a close second thanks to its fast reloading slow torps. In the case of the I-56, the I-56 became a holy terror to submarines once I close in and shot them with my Deck guns. when I did use torps. they were so fast the damage added up. I was able to scare away a DD because of that. Still thro.... Subs are soooo nerfed that there is no point of playing a sub until they undo that torp thing unless you like being food to the other ships class who do not seem to care. I removed wow from my computer and I shall wait. I am waiting for them to go after the DD's again. It just a matter of time.
You are spot on about I-56. Will see what happens with these changes over time. Thanks for watching.
I know for months I've been launching well beyond "torpedo range" if I have a closing target and just rolled the dice on whether or not I was guessing the speed correctly. This appears to be the flip side of that, applied to their anti-shotgunning damage tweaks?
Ya shot gunning is very hard now for the average player. Thanks for watching
Smartest sub player
Yes he is and thanks for watching
This nerfs are excactly what the big amount of crying bb players requested. When you get rushed in your subs, you are defensless.
So the only solution is to keep enough distance. 8 to 10km should give you enough space to retreat and to stay out of range from the ships with sub survilance.
Ya it's hard now. Thanks for watching
89-93 commander fleet activities Okinawa
Really that's amazing and thank you for your service, it's an amazing island and thanks for watching
@@normalguyofthenorth Thank you for your service as well
subs are trash now, this what happens when u listen to unicoms, utubers and dont actually test this urselves as devs
I stated a while ago, maybe one of Normal Guys' vids concerning this update that this may well end up costing WG money and players all because they wanted to silence the squeaking wheel.
@@strykersgamingltd i stopped playing on 1st sub nerfs
I was stupid and got a tier x sub just before this latest update came out. Everyone cried and now they're useless
@@Brodsort117 ya i spent steel on gato not long b4 this, so i feel ya
What gets me is the stats show there the most balanced line in the game, WG if you want to nerf something please start with the Malta...LOL. Thanks for watching.
Damage reduction due to torpedo belt? Try testing on different ships with varying belts, see if any difference.
No, the torp needs to travel a full 3.0KM or the torp damage is dropped to only 10%. Thanks for watching
Looks like a great change to me. This unimplementary class gets nerfed to a point where you need to act smart in order to get great damage with the increased torp damage. Of course 95% of people will deal no damage and kill themselves within 3 minutes but hey more skill involvement always good for pvp games. Imagine that a sub player now has to think like a destroyer before torping enemies. I like it and 3km travelingtime is not much if that is the threshold. So they actually removed shotgunning then i guess.
Shot gunning is nerfed well beyond 3km, that said the average player will do even worse but the good players will adapt and go back to killing out right. Thanks for watching
@@normalguyofthenorthThats what it should be about skilled gameplay gets rewarded.
I think normal guy of the north is being nice to you.
This would be like taking torps on surface ships and making them doing 10% damage at like 2 or 3km or less. How many destroyers get kills from going point blank. You wouldn't be okay with that.
This was a hard nerf as not everyone is a unicum player.
Torps should arm within 2km. I find that's typical underwater sub vs sub engagements.
Or...to be fair ... make surface ship torps take longer to arm too....and depth charge planes longer refresh...not this 20 second stuff or whatever it is.
Fyi im a cruiser player mostly. I am not even remotely scared of subs now.
I bought 4501 and its useless piece of crap now. I want my coal back.
For subs that only get acoustic torps, the one other remotely enjoyable playstyle got destroyed, so itll just be the same EU DD style torpboating with occasional sonar hits, the thing that was complained about when subs first dropped iirc
At least give them some usable conventional torps, sheesh
Not true, I still consider this as a buff. Think of it, subs getting their own Coal Modules and other equipment dedicated to subs, which mitigates damage, reduce cooldowns. And then there is also a buff to its movement speed overall.
The only sub mostly affected by this is the Gato gameplay of shotgunning very close range
I appreciate the statement. But i think features 4501 has right now, are far from ideal. Battle effectiveness of subs reduced to underwater research ship. You just enjoy beautiful reefs and marine panorama, while other player are beating the crap out of you.
@@saintchai20
I agree. Or lets remove shot gunning for DD s as well. Torp is torp, lets reduce DD torps damage under 3km. @@gpandamic7995
@@saintchai20 and I-56
3...1...5...
Thanks for watching
@@normalguyofthenorth
I just hope you got the reference.
I'm going to say 315 reference angle which is 45 degrees? Thanks for watching
@
Hunt for Red October. When Ramius tells Ryan “turn until this reads, 3…1…5…”.
Sooo all that time and money invested to get good subs... it's just crap now... for a casual player like me... Oh well... time to take my time and money elsewhere after 5 years playing.
Ya I hear that a lot. Thanks for watching.