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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 30 ก.ค. 2024
- There are 6 available subclasses for the Champion in Pathfinder 2e. Which ones feel the best to play? Let's talk about it.
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The thing with the Tyrant is also that the reaction has the mental trait, so it does not work against a lot of enemies that have mental immunity.
Playing a Tyrant in Bloodlords, I've had only 1 encounter where I've been able to actually use Iron Command. Granted, with Iron Repurcussion it was what ended the fight, but still.
Which sucks even more when you realize the Redeemer reaction which also makes the enemy choose...*doesn't have the mental trait* it doesn't even have any auditory or visual trait, ot just *works*, on *anything*.
Mental immunity is one of those things that either shouldn't exist or be *way* rarer than it is. It's preposterous how like a good 40% of player options are near-useless in the face of an immunity that designers throw on a monster just because they feel like it.
@hedgeyes6411 Alternatively, roughly half the things that have the mental trait or deal mental damage just...shouldn't.
This is the perfect example. Glimpse of Redemption and Iron's Command are essentially the same reaction - one good and one evil, but Glimpse has NO traits (other than Champion) and Iron is saddled with several negative traits - Mindless, Enchantment, and Emotion.
AJ. I don't know who you are. This saddens me greatly. For you to have a friend like Nonat asking all of his viewers to make you happy, you must be a truly great person. Thank you for existing, thank you for editing Nonat's videos. Thank you for helping bring Pf2 to the masses in an easily digestible and *fun* way. I hope you have a wonderful day, I hope you have a wonderful life, you glorious chunk of gold
Can I glimpse this
Big thing to note, Champions who can use their reaction to reduce damage, do it to all incoming damage. if the creature is doing mental, fire, bludgeoning, splash.... you reduce each of the types by 2+half the champion's level....
If not half Level, its 2+ full level...
This. Champions are a strange class where they start out weak but by level 8 can become insanely powerful. My shield champion really didn’t come into stride until level 8 with quick shield block. Plus the paladin reaction and our party takes minimal damage.
All of the "evil" Champions share the same downside. As soon as monsters figure out attacking you instead of your allies is a bad idea, they stop. And then your signature class feature becomes, "not getting attacked." Which is... fine.
The 'good ones' have the problem of needing other people to get hit to actually function properly, so...
I always thought this was intentional, you become a tank in the sense that monsters don't want to attack you
Well, you could talk to your dm about spending an action doing a provoke\taunt action, that forces the enemy to attack you if they lose some sort of save, will, I guess? I feel this should be a feat, actually, suprising it isn't. Doing it for free sounds kinda broken, too.
@@arealhumanbean3058 But how are you tanking anything if the enemies attack your allies instead of you?
@@StabYourBrain
By tanking I meant like, you are super hard to kill, even though the best tanks are those that can make enemies attack them instead of their allies
Another thing I've thought up with the alignment removal is something similar to the new Wizard Schools coming out is this is going to allow them to create more than just six causes for champions.
to be fair they never where restricted to just 6 causes anyways theme matters more then alignment there many themes that all different that the most common type would be of a certain alignment but i do like that alignment is being removed it allows for interesting and fun rp scenarios
Technically 9, they never made neutral champions, but yeah, I'm glad they're opening up the possibility for new champions without strictly corresponding to alignment
Something i noticed about the new wizard schools is that they sorta line up with the original subclasses, battle magic is evocation, the school of civic wizardry seems to be conjuration, unified theory is obviously universalist, and protean form, while the longest stretch, lines up pretty well with transmutation.
Fun champion tip: Play Shoony, pick Redeemer, worship Milani and get Cry of Destruction from the destruction domain. You are now The Goodest Boi (tm), complete with puppy eyes and a bork.
Redeemer champion was my first ever PF2e character, and that little guy single-handedly prevented every. Single. Point. Of damage. Over the first half a dozen fights.
Props AJ, your sense of fun comes through and works really well with Nonat's. Nonat, I hope you are treating your editor well...
I think you might be underestimating the Liberator's reaction. Been running Agents of Edgewatch and the liberator in that party gets PLENTY use out of it as a LOT of enemies have Grab and similar abilities. Then again, maybe that's just this particular adventure. The free Step is also super helpful for getting into better positions.
In my other campaign my buddy is playing a Liberator and he's virtually indestructible 😂. His AC goes up as a shield reaction, and the damn thing absorbs most of the impact anyway.
Charisma isn't how good looking you are, it's your force of personality. High charisma characters can look scarred and horrible, but have the strength of personality to scare the ever loving shit out of folks (intimidation)
Liches have high charisma.
Tyrant is my love. Also lvl 1 feat Iron Repercussions, make his reaction much better.
I love videos like this about the different subclasses, Class feats, and archetypes because I'm new to PF2 and I know what kind of characters I like to play in fantasy games but I'm not sure which options would best suit my play style yet.
I like to practice by making Lv 1 characters of different races & classes. The best ones become characters in my next game. Others often show up as NPCs.
Last time I was this fast NoNat was just a PNG
Would you say you were as fast as Sonic?
Redeemer Exalted ability - its not half level resistance, its full level, so at 11th level when you get it, you and all teammates within 15ft gain 11 resistance against the example fireball.
We have a Redeemer in our AV campaign (Lvl9 currently); GM often chooses not to follow through with damage simply because resistance is applied to each damage type separately, so if enemies make up their damage total with different types of damage (ie Physical + Negative), the Resistance applies against each damage total separately...
Playing Redeemer I almost feel like 5e arcane casters - each turn I have this wonderful "nope" button, and it is SO satisfying to roleplay. Almost as satisfying as seeing all the deserved love AJ is getting for their wonderful work. Love you AJ
Tyrant exalt effects does get a huge boost, 6 damage might not be much but 6 persistent damage is a different story. But even with that I agree on Paladin and Redeemer being better also due to their exclusive feats.
biggest accommodation to the Redeemer cause is having seen it in action for nearly a whole campaign. theres this actual play podcast called Dice Will Roll that im a HUGE fan of, and one of the characters in the second season where they played through Extinction Curse is a Swashbuckler who later multiclasses into a Redeemer Champion. the amount of times that the Glimpse of Redemption saved allies and led into AMAZING roleplay moments is astounding. easily one of the best causes for a champion
I feel like the Anti-Paladin reaction is a really cool idea that was executed very poorly. The idea of taking extra damage from enemy's attacks so that you can do more damage to them sounds really interesting. At minimum it should just be one roll that affects both you and the enemy, so there isn't that chance of you taking 6 and dealing only 1. Also the extra damage on your next turn should definitely scale in a similar way to the main damage of the reaction. But I really think this would have been massively improved by adding a few subclass specific feats that buff the reaction: maybe increasing the damage they take, or granting you some level of resistance to the damage you take, or just granting other debuff abilities along with the damage like prone, flat-footed, stunned, slowed, dazzled, or any number of other common debuffs. Even if there was a save against the debuff it would still be a cool feature that I think would be worth the risk of taking increased damage from the attack.
I wish there were three more subclasses for the neutral alignments. Granted, alignments will soon become irrelevant, but it’s the flavour that counts. Think (High)Judge for Lawful, Crusader for Neutral and Vigilante for Chaotic, just as an idea.
On the topic of early feats, the early paladin and tyrant ones are nice. Paladin you can use a ranged weapon (basically giving you a 15 ft aoo) or move as part of the reaction if melee. Tyrant it becomes persistent dmg instead of regular dmg (as an option) though that doesn't apply to the exalt so no aoe persistent.
One downside to the tyrant is vs mindless the reaction doesn't do anything (it's the only reaction with traits). Weirdly the redeemer reaction doesn't have the same restriction.
I like the Paladin the most because the best status effect is dead. In addition to reducing the damage to your ally you also get an attack. You can actually get 3 uses of the Champion's Reaction which is 3 chances to hit the enemy back while also reducing their damage. Here is my Reaction Paladin Build
1-Ranged Reprisal (Free 5ft move to get in range for attack)
6-Shield Warden (Can use Shield Block to help protect ally)
8-Quick Shield Block (Extra Reaction for Shield block means you can use Shield Warden and Champion power on same turn)
10-Shield of Reckoning (Can use your Champion Reaction as part of Shield Warden thus allowing 2 SW/CR combos per turn)
11-Become exalted and thus when CR the team gets extra attacks at -5 MAP
14-Divine Reflexes (Extra reaction for CR. Thus you can use Two SW/CR combos and 1 CR thus triggering exalted potentially 3 times a round)
Combine all these reactions with a weapon that's got a good crit ability like being able to knock someone prone and you got a pretty devastating effect. I like also adding runes with Crits like Shock so I can also zap other nearby enemies. Since your at 0 MAP depending on the enemy AC you can crit on a fairly regular instance.
While the redeemer is strong I don't like it as much because I think it's more situational. Sure the Exalt ability to protect everyone from AOE is nice but that doesn't come up as often. Also if you are combining the Shield Warden you reduce the damage by 2+Level then further by the Hardness of the shield. It's not long before you are seeing 20+ damage reduced on attacks which makes it a lot easier choice for the DM to just go, nope I'll skip the attack so you don't get the debuff cause only a few HP would actually get through. Where as with Paladin you are still getting that retaliation strike.
The setup only requires a few key feats and the rest is open to whatever style of Champion you want for the other abilities. Last time I played this was a Gnome with the Flintlock Mace as 1H Reach weapons really extend your range for reprisal attacks. I would often be right behind the fighter as we wanted enemies to attack him and not me. It would trigger the shield warden and at level 12 my CR would reduce damage by 14 and then shield block would reduce by 15 as I took shield divine ally with sturdy shield. So basically reduce 29 damage from an attack, lots of attacks got negated because any hit for less than 29 damage does no damage.
Having among the highest AC in the party as a champion even if they focused on me it rarely got through. So enemy was often left with option target weaker foes and suffer reprisals or try to hit the brick wall.
I played a liberator and my allies loved him for that five foot step. It came up all the time, every combat. I think it's the best subclass. Unfortunately, he died due to a whole session of terrible dice rolls on my part. But I replaced him with a gnoll magus and having just as much fun.
I think the big thing missing in the video is that the evil champions are meant to be used in campaigns you're fighting good things, like celestials that have weakness to good. Meaning they don't take "just 6 damage" from tyrant they take between 21 and 31
To paraphrase the GM for Tabletop Gold:
"Redeemers are interesting because it is super fun for the players, but it does make it harder to run a show. Just negating damage is rarely interesting."
AJ, I'm hugging the screen for 2 seconds longer that what is comfortable between bros.
Your edits add just the right amount of flair to these vids
Liberator is probably the best IMHO, especially when foes are numerous and you have the shield, because you can begins to juggle allies to gives them the best positiin for offense or defense between reach of enemies and your own to protect them with the shield and lay on hand.
Hell, take the bard archetype and inspire defense or courage and you're the maestro of the teamfight.
Sidenote: As chamions can specialiae with their oath, they're some of the class that benefits the most of retraining when you know about upcoming dangers.
M'y bad, somehow forgot the redeemer, the "do you want to make your spell hit or stay sane ?" to the enemy caster
A few remarks regarding remastered:
1. We will not get a new Champion write-up until Player Core 2. So the Champion will be in half-converted limbo for a while.
2. Holy and Unholy will be a thing. It is something that clerics can choose (with some deities requiring it). But as we do not get a new Champion in PC1, it save to assume have to choose Holy or Unholy for good and evil respectively.
3. Alignment Damage will be turned into Spirit Damage. Which is basically true damage. And at least Divine Lance will turn into a 2D4 Spirit Damage. You can optionally add Holy/Unholy to Spirit damage, to trigger weaknesses.
So the Alignment damage will be actually applicable - and possibly doubled what it is now.
Awesome video as always Nonat1s!
I havent played a champion yet, but after seeing the ranged reprisal feat, im now thinking of being a bow wielding paladin. I know its not conventional, but my favorite characters ive played in ttrpgs have been ones that buck conventions (necromancer bard in 5e for example)
Keep in mind that you still need to be within 15ft of both the enemy and your ally, even with a ranged weapon.
Keep in mind Ranged Reprisal does not remove the 15 ft limit.
Ranged Reprisal with a Reach weapon would be pretty good, however. You can step to always be in reach.
I feel like antipaladin could have at least been "and deal that much as evil or negative damage" so if you high roll you both suffer but if you low roll you're taking less at least.
Would changing the damage to 1d4 that you take and 2d4 that the enemy takes be too broken?
It isn't *that* much of a boost (around 2 damage each die increase), and rolling d4s is kinda fun.
I play a paladin with dual weapon warrior. He's a worshiper of Ragathiel who's also a raging alcoholic with crippling depression. His need to uphold Ragathiel's tenets with his desire to get absolutely plastered whenever he can creates a lovely dichotomy with some of the other party members XD
You are talented to post a video when i am playing pf/dnd)
I'll watch a bit later
It warms my heart to see you back on the saddle
I just wish they gave antipaladin a feat or free upgrade, that allows the damage to be done to ALL attacks after the reaction has been used for the rest of the round. It could then also only be the activation that damages you.
Ahhhh Champion, the class I had my first real character death to... well... first permanent death.
Abomination Vaults... it doesn't mess around.
I feel as though the frequency of Grab focused creatures and creatures that are just generally good at athletics and therefore Grappling is being underrepresented. Its a pretty frequent effect that comes up at my table, not because its a focus in any way but because Grabbing people to make them flat footed and disrupt their actions is really good.
I do wish the Desecrator damage reduction scaled at the same rate as the good champions.
I love the Tyrant because it's the one of the few Champions that doesn't rely on other people getting hit...so the LE Champion is the one encouraged NOT to use peasant meat shields....(unlike the Paladin that relies on meatshields, like the two reactions feel swapped somehow)
It makes narrative sense. What’s the good of being a paladin (Good Champion) if the there aren’t people getting hurt that need protection?
And there’s nothing stopping a Tyrant from using people as meat shields. 😈
You know I was going to say how Librator was A tier, but in the process of that I've realized some hilarious builds for Redeemer.
Inventor + Champion:
Go Weapon Innovation. Add the Trip and Grapple traits to your weapon.
You can now attack, trip, and grapple from reach.
You can trip and grapple to essentially put your enemy in time out.
If they try to attack one of your allies you can use your reaction to give them a choice.
Take back the damage they did or take a penalty to hit and escape that grapple and future grapples.
If they take the latter then you might crit on your grapple and make them unable to do anything until they escape the grapple.
The best part? It fits the redeemer fluff.
You have made a non-lethal take down weapon.
You don't even have to deal damage. You can just pin them to the ground until they get tired.
i really hope the anti paladin gets a good rework in player core 2
like the simple change would be you take an extra 1d6 damage and the character attacking you takes this damage.
More like an EVIL rework
Champion as a whole needs a rework. Well at least their feats do.
I would probably make a similar tier list, but exchanging places between Liberator and Tyrant/Desecrator. No matter how much situational the extras from Liberator are, the standard option of damage mitigation together with the step alone are solid enough to get close to what the Reedemer can do, and having a poor Smite option doesn't change that.
Meanwhile, the calculations to make Tyrant and Desecreator on par with Paladin and Reedemer were done super poorly. First, all of their core features only works when you or an ally get hit, and by that alone Reedemer and Paladin get a huge advantage, because as the one with likely higher AC of the team. There is also only one of you, and at least 3 other allies, and you don't get anything to make you a more appealing target, meaning the chances are all against you, so it's crystal clear which subclasses gets to proc their thing more often. That said, even with Tyrant proccing their reaction less often them Paladins, the later will likely deal more extra damage AND that on top of the damage reduction that Tyrant do not receive. Meanwhile, even though Redeemer will proc his reaction more often than Desecrator, the numerical damage mitigation the later gets is roughly half of what Redeemer can provide.
Playing a Tyrant/Desecrator can be fun, because the theme is great, but strenght-wise, they don't deliver as much to the table. While Liberator lacks in consistency, the reason i would put him above Tyrant/Desecrator is because at least Liberator is king on his own niche, while those are basically inferior versions of their counterpart. I agree that there are tons of stuff from Champion that unfortunately only works against some stuff, included but not limitedly to their oaths. Vengeful Oath is likely the only one that works well regardless, but the rest of them suck.
I'm still pretty new to pathfinder and I never really felt like playing paladins or clerics in dnd but my first two characters that actually see play are a cleric and a redeemer champion. Happy to see my choice supported by the all knowing nonat lmao
Damn, I haven't played a Paladin since 4th Edition! I did have a cool NPC Oathbreaker in 5e that slowly became the party's arch nemesis.
Can you believe that I just open TH-cam to search for Champion builds and found this on my 'Subscriptions' tab?
The NyQuil and Iced Coffee on the nightstand shows perfectly the duality of man.
feel like if a player picks up liberator it's a little on the dm to throw more grapples/grabs/etc. at the party so they get to use their ability. Also thank you AJ, hope you're having a good day
The thing is: liberator works with dmg too
@@astrid2432 I'm aware, but the secondary effect of the reaction (breaking free from effects/conditions) and the smite both rely on immobilising effects.
Your teeth look even sharper than last time.
Okay, no joke, I was thinking the same thing 😂
@@Nonat1s You were in such a rush you forgot to Photoshop away your vampirism
@@Nonat1s My guess is the different camera angle. Either that or you're smiling more, and both of those things are good!
I had captions on and they said Nona when you said No natural lol
Tyrant has a feat to make that mental damage persistent. That can really add up
The good champions are interesting because they work great if you have another melee martial, since the enemy has to choose between dealing less damage to your ally with downsides or attack you who will probably have the highest AC. However, if all your other party members are ranged backliners (like the one game I have someone running a champion), if the champion is doing their job stopping the enemy from attacking their allies, then they aren't using their reaction. It will still occur in my experience, but its not uncommon for the champion to go 3-4 rounds without using their reaction.
In this specific setup, the liberator might be the best, since your backliners are going to want to do everything they can to get away from the enemy, and grabbing spellcasters is pretty brutal
Hey, we are out the other side of the remaster and at least for now, only the Causes of Good are available for Pathfinder Society play. We'll see if they're rebuilt to make them all viable in all environments... next year.
Aj. Ur editing. Incredible. I love u.
God I cannot wait for the Remaster. What do you hope they do for Champion in the Remaster?
Liberator gets a lot better if you have at least one party member with the ability to Step up to 10 feet. Just targeting that ally alone makes it a little less situational. But yeah, how often can any of the conditions mentioned ever come up? I would have preferred something else honestly. I can't be sure what, but the Liberator is in desperate need of a more potent option that usable more commonly. Maybe allow the triggering ally to get an immediate Shove? Not sure if that's more useful. Also, I never realized how potent Redeemer is. It's wild.
The champion is one of the best flavored class in the game and the subclass just expandes on them and now we will be able to play a morally good tyrant if we want.
But they also have to follow the Tenents of Good/Evil, which aren't necessarily alignment restrictions and act as anathema on their own.
A tyrant probably couldn't be good, and a Redeemer probably couldn't be evil.
I used to always think Tyrant was the best evil Champion cause, but I'm increasingly thinking it's actually Desecrator. The big issue with Tyrant is that since it's Mental damage, any sort of Mindless creature (not to mention lots and lots of Constructs) are completely immune to your Reaction. Plus, the Prone condition isn't nearly as good unless you have someone nearby who can do attack of opportunity if they stand up.
I think Tyrant actually works best as a Archetype on a Fighter, because then you can take Combat Reflexes at level 10 and you're able to knock an enemy prone with your reaction and then hit them with AoO if they try to stand up. Plus since the Tyrant's Divine Smite and Exalt aren't very good, you don't really lose much.
10:20
Why won't they?
One of my first pf2 characters was a Desecrator who was a demon cultist.
He had high charisma and did hide his cultist identity, he was presenting himself as a mercenary knight.
Why did he bother? Because he LOVED to worm himself to people's trust and manipulate them into confrontations between each other of course!
He did ruin "dreams of whole lives", marriages, friendships and alliances, because he was a sadist of "i ll watch your dreams crushed by a betrayal of your closest friend" sort.
If anyone have watched Fate Zero => do you remember how Kirei has crushed mentally Kariya Matou? Something like that.
That character loved to plant evil or dout in people, but more => to cause betrayals and crush happiness.
It was an evil campaign of mostly neutral party, who did present themselves as mercenaries, but actually have been completing a prophecy of Dark Messiah.
the redeemer is such insane on the reaction i agree im actually the paladin in a group on abomination Vault and damn its save so much event tough some times there some dead withouh redeemer it would be always tpk against boss
While the diff subclasses won't be alignment locked anymore, making them arguably more open, they are still gonna be edict and anathama locked. So, the 'evil' ones are still gonna be kinda evil.
Alright, now the real question: How do you buff the rest of the Champ subclasses to be just as strong as the Redeemer?
i feel that tis is the most important question for the sake of the game itself, hopium of the day is that Paizo have the answer and will make tweaks to the remaster version have improvements on the sub-classes, but is imo fun to speculate solutions for it
For Liberator:
An Ally is attacked.
Choose a target.
Target gains a free Stride or Step.
This free Stride or Step must be towards the attacker if anyone except the attacked Ally is chosen as the target.
The attacked Ally may move however they wish with this free Stride or Step.
What makes this reaction scary is the potential of putting your dangerous party members, like the Barbarian, within reach or giving them a flank.
We can also alter the reaction so that it has no range requirement.
However, it also no longer reduces damage.
The main draw of the ability is getting people in and out of position as the circumstances of the fight changes.
This also fits the freedom fighter aspect of the subtype.
@@nicolasvillasecaali7662 exactly. Nerfs should be the last resort. Always try to buff first.
The good desecrator sounds an awful lot like Simon Belmont from the captain in series in the 80s
have you thought about doing a broken dual class list? like top 5 broken dual classes and why. like fighter magus or thalmaturg barbarian
You ever covered that all the Evil Champions suck because they deal Evil Damage (which Neutral and Evil creatures are immune to) or Negative Energy Damage (which all undead and constructs are immune to). Unless you're in a campaign specifically fighting Good characters your abilities kinda suck. And lots of creatures are immune to Mental damage, including anything mindless.
Desecrator idea: Business Tycoon CEO out to make as much as possible.
Played 19 levels with a Redeemer in the party. We see the enemy pull their attack plenty of times. The GM is good at adding flavor to it. Early in a combat they might be unsure and pull their strike while later in combat they resolve and take the enfeebled. Or the reverse where early in the combat they take the enfeeble but then as the fight drags on they get sick of being enfeebled and pull their strike as their moral weakens. And we are typically total power-gamers that barely care about role-playing so it is a really nice flair LOL
Gag on your sponsored drink. Way to impress... everyone, sponsor and targets alike.
You're the Champion, NoNat1's! :)
The problem with redeemer is that no one will have their reaction anyway. Unless they are actively trying to redeem the orc before meeting out punishment they are in violation of their oath.
It's a 1 action per enemy tax, much like Hunt Prey, but more mandatory.
@@teddennison344 I was referring to the redeemer cause "You must first try to redeem those who commit evil acts, rather than killing them or meting out punishment. If they then continue on a wicked path, you might need to take more extreme measures. " how many players actually do that ahha
Are we doing that for every class? At least the ones in the new player book?
Love seeing LiveNat again! Have you seen the new Rougelite thats being released by the same studio doing abom vaulr? id love a video on it, reach out to the studio if you can and see if you can get an interview with 1 of the devs! they need the bump to their kickstarter.
Note about something you said in the Liberator section. You said that Large opponents have reach. This is not precisely true. Large opponents are likely to have a reach greater than 5 ft or one of their attacks has reach 10 ft or more but it is not assured. For example - horses (including zombie horse) are large but don't have reach. Owlbears are large but don't have reach. Frost worm is huge and does not have reach. The reach based on size comments in the GMG are most common situation - but each monster will list what it actually has. (more large creatures with only 5 ft 'reach': dire wolf, grizzly bear, centaur, ankhrav, lillend, giant stag beetle, chimera, giant eagle, many more...)
Howdy Slogan
Love what you've done with the place Logan
Have a nice day and say hi from me to Hulk Hogan
Honestly. I think the Anti Paladin sub class is best used simply as a role play tool. Imagine getting impaled, grabbing the blade, and pulling it further through you just to intimidate and stab that enemy back. Badass flavor win, mechanically a failure.
For the tyrant, I agree 6 damage on a level 15 enemy isn’t super exciting. However if there are, for instance, 7 enemies, you get the full attack on your target and a total of 36 additional damage for free- sorta like the average value of 12d6 damage spread across the 6 other enemies. In a long fight, that’s a big hit for using zero actions.
A.J. the way you put the text on screen... 🥰
My group is about to start a kingmaker campaign using free archetype. My character is going to be a Thaumatuge with the champion archetype. Redeemer is 100% the best champion subclass and my character is for sure going with that cause.
ah, i havent looked into the champion yet, it looks like paizo has done the best version of it yet (if we count the fact they are removing alingment), and i always thought thats how the class should have been done for all these years, also thank you AJ, and nonat, you have been great, especially AJ, if nonats can fail a will save against his own charisma, you AJ will not fail those saves, never!
3,000 years have passed since the last list
love to see you back and running
Grr, I just want to play this game one day!
I haven't played a desecrator, but i don't think it's that's good. The damage reduction is less than what a sturdy shield could do, and uses the same reaction. sturdy shields can probably last through a combat and be repaired after, unless you block multiple crits. Champions with their heavy armor proficiency don't really need more survivability, but their allies do. And good champions also reduce damage by 2+full level, and can shield block if they do need to defend themselves.
On the other hand, i think you're underselling the liberator somewhat. That free step is huge in wasting action economy if your ally steps away, but it can also be used to more easily set up a flanking position. The fact that your party can break free much easier is just the cherry on top. The smite is indeed a bit situational, but when it triggers a weakness, it is really good, and two levels later you'll get an alternative to use when you don't need to break grapples. Having the entire party step for free is just insane value for a single reaction.
I feel that the selling point of a champion is that it's uniquely qualified for the tank role. Any character can have high AC, but if that's all you have going for you, your allies will become the targets instead of you. That's why i rank any of the good champions above the evil ones, since the damage mitigation means that your allies will take less damage if targeted, or you take the damage instead. Both of which help you tank and lets your party survive. I'd put Redeemer at a clear top spot. And put liberator slightly ahead of paladin. The attack is nice, but it makes positioning even more difficult and important, because you only get the attack if they're in melee. Stepping away or into a better position just works in most cases.
Champion archetype multiclass feats need a serious rework. Champion's Reaction feat is a tax, before taking Basic Devotion. The same goes with Champion Dedication being a feat tax for Healing Touch. Healing Touch is worse in every way compared to Blessed One Dedication. Divine Ally is a 6th level feat for a 1st level Champion ability.
Great video great editing! Keep up the good work you two! (Just pretend this comment is super, weird im bad at being weird)
I choose to believe that I helped put Redeemer in S tier here
I don't blame you for not going into all of the feats for every subclass, but Tyrant has a low level feat that turns their reaction into Persistent damage instead, and I've found in my current campaign that it's actually really solid. We've had more than 1 situation where a pretty strong boss/miniboss takes a pretty sizeable chunk of damage from it, or even ends up dying before they get another full turn because of it.
At level 5, applying 2d6 persistent on turn 1, and then doing an instant 2d6 on turn 2 and 3, or getting 2d6 persistent on more than 1 enemy really adds up. Our Tyrant uses a 2h sword so enemies are more likely to hit him, and being able to dish out 6d6 damage by the end of turn 2 with no saving throws or attack rolls, on the very high AC miniboss is actually pretty damn solid. Is it as good as Retributive Strike? Nah, probably not, but imo it's good enough that if you pick Tyrant purely because of the flavor, you won't be too disappointed with this ability.
The Phenomenal one, AJ Styles.
I forgot to check the ping but I'm here by chance I am so dirty fire being.... 12 minutes late
LETS GO AJ!!!!!!
i like the thumbnail on this one
I would rank Liberator higher, if only because a step is absurdly powerful in PF2. Sure, you can ony trigger much of your power off of geapples and such (which are more common than I think you give them credit for) but a step alone *warps* action economy in a way no other Champion can consistently- in may cases a mid-turn step is equivalent to stunned 1 on an enemy mid-turn.
I'd value that over dealing damage in most senarios. Even Redeemer cant effectively steal actions *consistently* the way Liberator can
18:17 Where are you seeing "Glimpse of Redemption" as "half your level"?
They are getting rid of alignment, BUT NOT EDICTS AND ANATHEMAS. Expanding those even. Also, they are keeping alignment for gods, and champions have to get their powers from a god. So the "evil" champions likely won't be any more usable in groups and campaigns than they were before.
Yeah edicts and anathema restrictions most likely. Yet I suspect that the edicts and anathemas will allude to whatever alignments they would be applied to.
@@zenvariety9383 They already exist for Champions. Some were even mentioned in the vid. I can't imagine they'd be made LESS restrictive, since they now will need to do the job of alignment too.
@@teddennison344 exactly. Yet it baffled me why they didn't make 3 more subclasses. Judges, Templates, and Mason's could work. Yet with the ORC I'm pretty sure a Pathfinder 2e clone could do that.
@@zenvariety9383 The huge benefit for Champions of getting rid of alignment is going to be just that: the ability to make loads of new subclasses. I'd argue for a Nature champion and a general "Heroisim" Champion.
The only problem with the good champion reactions is that they become less good when you’re in a larger room or fighting huge monsters. Say you’re a champion fighting huge monster, you’re flanking for your rogue and the monster attacks the rogue. You can’t help them, they’re out of range.
hay nonat did pathfinder 2e bring back the Mythic system?
Why not pump CHA for a Desecrator? Intimidation is a perfect fit for the subclass mechanically and thematically.
After level 6, Fighter with Paladin Archetype is the best Champion. You have their entire kit but with a +2.
If you're playing a liberator champion convince someone to play a cosmos oracle, and bait enemies into grappling them. XD
Sigvald the Magnificent is a desecrator Champion confirmed.
Hold on, they're going to remove alignments?
Edit: After watching further into the video, it seems I misunderstood a certain part. They're removing alignment requirement for the Champion subclasses, right?
Nope! Paizo is making the executive decision to remove the restrictive, archaic alignment system. They're instead putting much heavier emphasis on character motivations, morals, and anathema. So rather than everyone being forced into 1 of 9 boxes, you will now have a much broader and personalized "alignment" that's unique to each character. (Good and Evil damages are being replaced with Holy and Unholy)
I present the high charisma desecrater. BEHOLD SIGVALD THE MAGNIFICENT! BELOVED OF SHE WHO THIRSTS! PRINCE OF CHAOS!