Why Jaime Wanted To Fight Ned Stark So Badly
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 4 มิ.ย. 2024
- In season 1 of game of thrones we get one of the best scenes that didn't happen in the a song of ice and fire books. The sword fight between Jaime Lannister and Ned Stark. Today I want to break down what was going on in Jaime's head. Why he needed this fight so badly and why he got so upset when the fight was cut short. Using things we learn in later books we can see what his motivation would be here beyond what we saw in the show. Everything I will talk about is what makes this to me one of the best scenes in the entire Game of Thrones show.
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It wasn't just that Ned found Jaimie having killed the king, it's that he also found him sitting on the throne while his father was busy sacking the city after giving the false impression that he was there to reinforce it. That just made it look like an outright Lannister powergrab with Jaime and Tywin having conspired for this outcome all along. That's why Ned judged Jamie that harshly.
Well said
@@borko1382nd this, the context of the events is super important to Ned’s genuine misunderstanding. It’s not a character flaw, he just thought he knew what happened and was wrong.
Good point. I didn't see it that way.
It's tragic that the one deed that truly defined him as a true Knight was twisted into a condemnation of him as the vilest betrayer ever. This series is something else
It's a twisted and tragic vision of a knight slaying a dragon to save a city.
@@JM-rc9xm oh my god, I never thought about this?? But also it makes so much sense, it's such a GRRM thing to do
The funny thing is that Jaime is still too proud at their later meeting to admit the real reason/final straw why he killed Aerys. Ned does know what conflicting vows are (he was involved in a rebellion after all) and we see him prioritize protecting children over other duties.
Ned knows what conflicting vows are but, in order to rationalize Jaime's viewpoint Ned would have to know/believe that Aerys was planning on leveling King's Landing with wildfire. And in Ned's mind Robert has now ruled in King's Landing for over a decade and not mentioned anything about wildfire so, why would Ned believe him?
@@cmac3530 I don't think that Ned believed Robert ruled. If someone is actively ruling, they're not battling against the forces of the former ruler. I also don't get the impression Ned really believed Robert was the rightful ruler either. He believed Robert would be an improvement over the sitting king.
Jaime does try to tell Ned in the throne room but Ned is too simple to pick up on the hints and Jaime realizes there is no point.
@@jenniferpearce1052 Maybe "rule" wasn't the right word.
Robert lived in King's Landing, inside the Red Keep, and his men had unlimited access to all of King's Landing. No one in Robert's service ever came across any wildfire caches. At least to Ned's knowledge.
@@cmac3530 To be clear, I'm not saying Ned would believe Jaime on his word but but the proof is still there (on the plus side for Jaime, he even gets to taunt Ned about it). My point is not how quickly Ned would believe his story but that Ned is likely to accept those reasons (after checking) if Jaime told him bluntly enough to force him to investigate.
I'd say the biggest issue Ned had with Jaime was the timing of it all. Jaime could have killed the mad king at any point since he was always around him but he chose to do it only after his father had already entered the city and it was over for Aerys anyways. Ned didn't know about the wildfire thing so to him it looks like Jaime was team Aerys until Aerys lost them he jumped ship. Jaime sitting on the iron throne was not a good look either.
Absolutely. When people make videos like these they too often attempt to see things from one characters point of view and undermine the others.
Bruh he was 14
@@realhillkellmen are considered full grown at 15 in this world. Robb was 15 when he became Lord of winterfell.
@@myujmes Rob was not really considered full grown. Teenage boys were expected to step up. It was part of the process of growing up.
If Jamie had killed Aerys prior to the army arriving to provide support, what do you suppose his situation would have been in court? There were still Targarean loyalists around. That would have been an incredibly suicidal thing to do.
To be fair to show Ned, the blow Arthur took from Howland was fatal, it was almost a mercy killing. And completely different context, if Jaime had killed Ned in the street there Robert would have arrested him.
I was gonna say this if you didn't.
Deep down Jaime's always admired Ned but he's too proud to admit it even to himself
I agree.
I never viewed them together like that. They parallel each other so much.
It's crazy. They both betrayed a tyrannical king yet one is considered the most honorable man alive...the other the most honourless 🤣
@ReeceDee history is written by the victors. I love the Starks, but the 100% blind honor didn't give room for the shades of grey in real life.
Bit odd ned was so upset over Jamie killing a guy he was literally rebelling again...I never thought of that lol@@ReeceDee
I don't think it is unreasonable of Ned to dismiss will/the deserter. Come on, every time someone runs from the wall and claims the Others scared them off you're going to launch an investigation?
If Ned Stark is about to kill you, tell him you saw the others and you'll have at least the trip to the wall to try and escape. Neddard would become a laughing stock.
If you saw Rattleshirt or the Thenns you could easily think they are Others.
There is one element of what winning the swordfight woul prove that you missed. In GoT, where trial by combat is a well established concept, winning a sword fight could actually prove you are just. Though I don't think this was author's intent (cool swordfight goes brr) I think it's a nice interpretation, on top of the simpler (and probably correct) explanation that it was about Jaime's ego.
It also somewhat comes down to the dichotomy of Stark and Lannister philosophy. Lannister is might makes right, Stark is honour makes right. Ned thinks he can win by being most just in the face of his enemies, Jaime knows he can win by leaving his enemies dead.
That pic of Sean bean holding ice is always hilariously Ned thuggin out fo' da gram.
Please don't drag ASOIAF down to ebonics level.
@@bollockjohnson6156racist much?
I've always wondered how important the detail that Jamie was sitting on the Iron Throne was. Jamie seems to think Ned was judging him based on the dead king, but it was more than that, wasn't it? Lannister banners were up, the dead Targaryen children were wrapped in Lannister colours, and there Jamie is sitting on the throne. Jamie looked terrible in that position, of course Ned was judgemental.
The mundane version is that Ned disapproves of the Lannister opportunism and baby-killing in general, and Jamie seems very untrustworthy by sitting on the throne. I mean I've read Jamie's thoughts and even I don't fully understand what he was thinking by sitting there.
The fun version I entertain sometimes is that Ned knows a bit about Raegar's prophecy, and something about evil deeds by a Lannister/lion on the iron throne is included in the prophecy, so Ned is very deeply concerned by the sight... even though the prophecy was actually referring to Cersei.
To be fair they came in to see Jamie sitting on the Iron Throne he definitely wasn’t helping his public image 😅
While his dad’s sacking the city
And dont forget tywin just pillage the city killing a lot of innocents, so he probably thought jaime was in this together and was all their plan the Lannister just betrayed and joined the war in the end. Ned thought to convenient
@@0cidd0 of course that part too I can’t believe I ain’t mention that like yeah Ned wasn’t the best political strategist but I think people are kind of unfair to the character😭
I think Jamie doesn't believe that Ned killed sir Arthur Dayne at the tower of joy with skill-honor (he likely didn't). I don't think it's about Jamie proving himself to be the best so much as proving Ned is a liar
How absurd
People don't know about the Tower of Joy unless they read the books. People in world don't know about it.
@@jenniferpearce1052no, it’s publicly known that Ned killed Sir Arthur Dayne somehow, he returned Dawn to house Dayne after all and there would have to be SOME explanation for what happened to a member of the King’s Guard.
i felt the same way after going back and watching it
@@Slender_Man_186It wasn't just one either, I believe it was 3 kingsguard.
I think you're spot on. It's fun to see a more grounded and less magical vid from you. I was waiting for you to tell me how Jaime is actually the Night's King and also Qaith. And a horse.
Being a fan even after this many years can be still be rewarding! Thanks for that, it somehow never occurred to me in the fashion you just supposed. Great job :)
I think a big difference here is also psychological. Jaime seeks validation for his actions (and we could go into why, because of Tywin and Cersei and so on). But the very need to seek validation is what creates the disdain from Ned's eyes. The Starks bear their duty. When Ned breaks his duty, he does so and bears it without seeking approval. He bears it and accepts what comes with the dishonor. And that is the difference between the two men. It is not that Ned cannot conceive of breaking a vow, or doing something dishonorable. It is that he believes you accept the consequences of that decision. Ned is willing to take the black and be branded a traitor, because he believes there are more important things than honour. However he would never try and seek validation for his actions to another, like Jaime Lannister, and this is why when he tries to appeal to Ned, Ned shows disdain. He expects a true kingsguard to accept the consequences of his actions. I actually think that Jaime starts to learn this lesson throughout the story after he loses his hand. I love their comparison, because they are similar in many ways. And different in interesting ones.
Amazing videos Ser! Every time I think that you won't top your last video you go ahead and do it again that's outstanding!
Those parallels you pointed out at the end literally blew my mind! 🤯😭 Gotta love long form videos like this.
Jamie was still but hurt over his mentor getting killed at the tower of joy .. he probably had a lot of sleepless night wondering how the dawn could lose to the winter wolf
great video as always michael! always excited to see what you make next!
Without watching the video: Jaime wants a fight with Ned over Ser Arthur Dayne. All of Westeros knows the story of the Tower of Joy.
Really good analysis of this importance of this fight for Jamie! I had never thought about it that way before. But it certainly makes a lot of sense.
Jaime had a very specific reason for not killing Ned and it had nothing to do with honor. Ned specifically states kill me and your brother is as good as dead. Ned on the other hand, killed Arthur Dayne as an act of mercy. Had nothing again to do with honor. Either he could leave Arthur to bleed out or he could put him out of his misery much like you do for an animal with a serious injury.
Someone said in the comment section of another video ( I think from the Fandome ? ) that Jaime might be realizing that Ned isn't up to Arthur Dayne's standards , as he's fighting him , and is probably finding out that something isn't adding up about Stark beating Dayne.
Might have been my comment I’ve said similar Things on other videos. Just before the Lannister guard wounds Ned it seems like Jamie has a disappointed look on his face. He’s likely realizing that Ned isn’t in his (or Arthur Dayne’s) level in swordplay. So I think he knows there’s no way Ned beat Dayne in a one on one fight.
You know I like the idea of recapturing as much of the good from the show as possible. It was fun while it lasted to share a phenom with everyone superbowl style but now its an ecosystem of real fans.
awesome video bro can’t believe you don’t have more subs
Shot in the dark, Ned killed his idol Ser Arthur Dayne and Jaime needed to prove himself that he was better/avenge Arthur
I have no idea why you have so little subscribers, your theories on ASoIaF are so on point!
So few*
@@robertinogochev3682 I can't be always correct. I am no Mannis.
You make a great point... I just subbed to his channel because of this comment.
Excellent video
When you hear "time traveling Bran did it" in a theory video....
And have to throw up in your mouth a little
Very good video bro
How was Eddard executing Will a “bad choice”? It was all really par-for-the-course. I understand Will was fleeing a supernatural boogie man, but he fled from the far north, over the wall, and past his sworn duty. He could have stopped at Castle Black, but he didn’t.
@16:30 it wasnt the exact same situation. after killing Arthur they can save the hostage and leave, while killing Ned could result in war with the north and tyrions execution.
I mean the real reason was because it was cheaper to film.
So making a horse break neds leg is more expensive than filming a whole fight scene. Ok bro
@@lumarrandom8144 Yes.
@@SolidSDA no
@@Baelfyre yes
@@lumarrandom8144you realize how fucking hard it is to do a horse stunt? The whole point is to not actually injure the stunt actor
Good foookin video!!
Holy crap I haven’t read the first book in forever and Ned didn’t get into a fight with Jaime in the book I think the fight was a great improvement
16:30 Well, one was stabbed in the leg (granted, in that time, it might have been deadly still) and the other one got stabbed THROUGH THE SPINE, NECK, AND THROAT so Ned basically mercy-killed Ser Arthur, it's not like he could feed him some bread and call it a day Video-Game style.
Also, the situation was quite different, Ned was trying to save and free his sister, it was a clear war and he knew, alive Arthur was a big threat to his goal, while Jaime needed Ned to be alive, he had a numerical superiority and just went with the play. I am sure, that if Ned had the opportunity, he would have restrained from killing Jaime, so the stakes from both sides were much lower.
I think the thing that gets overlooked about ned. (Probably because we dont get his viewpoint early on in his life) is that Ned is a hard man who has seen some shit. Like in his kids eyes hes a very good moral compass, so we the reader see him as inherently good. But ned is a very hard man.
Ned not telling people he didn't defeat Dayne in single combat is the most dishonorable thing he did in the show/books
I like this better then the books. This is a good scene and good analysis
The show may have lacked the story-in-a-story complexity and the deeper use of symbolism, but there were some truly great moments, and the first scene between Tywin and Jamie was one of them.
Awesome. Never would have put that much stock into that scene
I find it funny that Ned judged Jaime for stabbing Aerys in the back
like he didn't killed Arthur Dayne while Arthur was on his knees ...
on his back from the front on their knees to the side killing is killing
i think that kinda like Jaime justified his pain Ned's personality is also doing the same as Jaime and branding other types of killing dishonorable and dissing people for their "bad" actions while not confessing or acknowledging his own
in a way he has less moral righteousness than Jaime
but then again Jaime does his own sister and pushed a kid from a castletop
what's funny is that Jaime would probably judge Ned in a worse way if he knew the disgraceful way in wich Ned killed his childhood idol
I think a crucial part of dialogue you’re missing is when Ned goes on to say “you served him well, when serving was safe.” Ned would have respected what Jamie did had he done it earlier when it actually might’ve cost his something, but saved someone else.
I do wonder how things would have went if Tywin did actually try and take the Iron Throne for House Lannister in a double-betrayal type of situation.
Imagine a younger Ned and a less experienced Jaime going at it in front of the Iron Throne.
They're like, one or two years apart age wise...
One thing I don’t see many people talk about when talking about honorable ned is that he was only honorable to cover up the dishonor of him hiding Jon snow and not telling anyone he truth about what truly caused the rebellion. It probably eats him up that he can’t tell anyone due to the promise he made so he makes up for it in other ways. Sorry I’m not well with words but I think you get my point lol
Jaime said it did bother him when they call him kingslayer....
Tywin: and when they whisper King Slayer behind your back, does it bother you???
Ser Jaime: of course it does
If you are experiencing the story for the first time I think the book version has some extra merits. It adds more hype for when Ned and Jaime might fight in the future. The problem is that never happens. So it's good that the show lets us see them fight--or even let's us see Ned fight at all for that matter. And yeah having them fight is so good for Jaime's character.
Clearly the horse is Tykrek Lannister
I think it comes down to Jaime thinking, Arthur Dayne was the greatest knight I’ve ever seen, and this Northern chump ‘supposedly’ bested and killed him straight up without cheating. There’s no F’ing way!! Fight me and I’ll show you for the liar you are, ‘Honorable’ Ned!!
There’s definitely some hypocrisy from Ned regarding the death of the Aerys. He knew what was done to his father and brother. It was sadistic and cruel and not warranted in any way. The rebellion was started for a just reason, despite the end results.
Aerys had a record of cruelly and insanity that must have been known leading up to the sacking of King’s Landing. Ned couldn’t have been ignorant of that. The fact that Jamie never disclosed the real reason he stabbed Aerys in the back doesn’t justify Ned’s scorn.
Id like to say i love the fact that even though the one thing jaime values most(aside from cersi) being the best warrior, against his worst enemy(fickle, his foil, and his nick name maker) who also imprisoned his brother is taken away from him. he still doesn't kill the henchman who took away his opportunity of lifetime even though he's supposed to be a evilish villain who would normally kill his henchman but doesn't
I agree that this was a great change
Thanks for this explanation and info...never thought of it that deep before. Just thought he wanted to get back at ned for judging him.
This is show only stuff, but George was an integral part of the show in this era. Maybe this was his chance of publishing this scene both ways.
Crannogmen are known to fight with tridents & nets, so Howland Rees may have stabbed Arthur Dayne from afar or thrown a net on him, both of which would have hampered his ability to fight with a sword.
This gives me a huge idea of fan fic
1:41 - it's definitely a time traveling foetus. Anyway, must go. Glimbus awaits. Tyrek away boy.
At the end of the day Jamie is a sister-banging, attempted child murder... I think Ned's instincts of Jamie were correct.
Love the refrence to chess, it kinda resembles Magnus and Kasparov
Ser Jaime didn't scare Ned's horse, he rode away before the fighting even started 3:14
Jamie just wanted to see if he was actually as good as he thought was (himself)-What better way than to challenge and maybe beat the established Ned. Ned let him think he was good but not for long-Once Ned quit toying w/him and put his game face on it was over for Jamie and Jamie knew it-u could see the look on his face when he realized he had bit off more than he could chew. His man saved his life by stabbing Ned in the leg-or so the man thought because I don't think Ned would have killed him, just taught him a lesson and, to Jamie, that may have been worse than death.
I like that Jaime is so frustrated that Ned makes a judgement of him for being dishonorable, although he thought he was doing the right thing. Then when one of his guys stabs Ned in the back of the leg, thinking he is doing the right thing, Jaime literally punches him in the face for being dishonorable.
ok now say hi to your brazilian fans
I SAID DO IT NOW
in the books when we’re told what happened at the tower of joy we’re gonna find out arthur dayne had a horse fall on him and break his leg.
Jaime was the realest most loyal person in this whole show. He is the GOAT of TV history! He deserves his flowers. Give him his 🌹🌹🌹🌹🌹🌹🌹🌹🌹🌹🌹🌹🌹🌹🌹🌹🌹🌹🌹🌹🌹🌹🌹🌹🌹🌹🌹🌹🌹🌹🌹🌹🌹🌹🌹🌹🌹🌹🌹🌹🌹🌹🌹🌹🌹🌹🌹🌹🌹🌹🌹🌹🌹🌹🌹🌹🌹🌹🌹🌹🌹🌹🌹🌹🌹🌹🌹🌹🌹🌹🌹🌹🌹🌹🌹🌹🌹🌹🌹🌹🌹🌹🌹🌹🌹🌹🌹🌹🌹🌹🌹🌹🌹🌹🌹🌹🌹🌹🌹🌹🌹🌹🌹🌹🌹🌹🌹🌹🌹🌹🌹🌹🌹🌹🌹🌹🌹🌹🌹🌹🌹🌹🌹🌹🌹🌹🌹🌹🌹🌹🌹🌹🌹🌹🌹🌹🌹🌹🌹🌹🌹🌹🌹🌹🌹🌹🌹🌹🌹🌹
How did the deserter make it from beyond the wall to winterfell territory? Did he just go through the main gate then run away? Or go around- which if he did, he would find himself in others land more than starks
Ned hid behind duty when it was convenient for him.
A little long-winded, some points repeated ad nauseum, but overall cool video.
im still traumatized by the death of Jory😭
Very solid defense of Jamie. My only thought is would Jamie kill or let Ned live. I think Jamie would let Ned live cause Jamie wants revenge for the King Slayer title Ned had branded him with.
I’ve always thought that the kid obviously had news and Ned should have recognized that by his behavior (We all love Ned but dang definitely Sansa’s father 😅) ….
Plus- he should have learned from the whole tower of joy that things aren’t always as previously conceived…💕 Sean Bean
Did Ned ever say he killed Arthur Dan in single combat? Why did people just assume that should've been pretty obvious he didn't
The point you are missing is Ned didn’t really care that Jaimie killed the Mad King. The issue he had was he did it after he knew the King was going to lose the war and it showed no bravery or heroism when and how he did it. He was pissed that he should have done when his father and brother were about to be tortured and murdered. That would have been a brave and noble act. You clearly missed Ned’s point of view.
Ned was in a war, where Jamie attacks ned outside a brothel not comparable situations in terms of honor imo.
A couple things I'd like to add. Your characterization of Ned is good, but I'd extend it to his own challenges with being a KG. One scene in the books in particular, when he asks why they don't defend the queen. Ned's rebuke of his morally correct assessment is similar to the one he received from his KG brothers. I think he doesn't just want to prove he's as capable a swordsman as Arthur Dayne, he also wants this trial by combat to prove his balance of morality vs vows was the right one. By defeating Ned he's not simply proving his skill, he's proving he wasn't guilty of a crime or sin when he killed Aerys.
Another interesting parallel is the comparison of Arthur and The Smiling Knight. It's interesting because Ned is being cast in the role of Arthur, underlined by him not smiling or laughing. This is contrasted against what I would assume to be Robert cast as the Smiling Knight. Said one way, he would have wanted to be more like Ned, but ended up being more like Robert. By which I simply mean self indulgent to a degree. Needing to prove he was better and letting it make him insecure. Not that this change in him mattered much in KL with Ned.
Excellent take on why he wanted to face Ned. I'd say it was more than just defeating him on a skill level though. He wanted to believe he was right, and defeating Ned would have made him feel like the Seven had blessed his choices as much as his arm.
I need to rewatch, but im misremembering. I thought Ned had the upper hand in the 1 v 1
lmfao 0:45 is outrageous!
Bro's voice is so monotone, a robot's voice would sound more interesting
Because he was fighting the guy who beat Arthur Dayne - the greatest of all time.
The reason that in the show Jamie wanted to fight Ned was that he knew that he "defeated" Arthur Dayne who was the greatest swordsman to ever live. Honor and curiosity dictated that he fight and best Ned by his own hand.
You wanted Ned to take the Nights watch deserter on a long trip to the wall because he said he saw the others, something no one believes exists or ever did? He'd look good turning up at the wall saying this dude saw the others.
I also don't think Jamie feels he needs to beat Ned to know he's a better fighter. He believes he's better and based on what we know, that's true. Ned isn't considered in the top ten, so there's no way Jaime felt he needed to prove his battle prowess over Ned.
Jamie arc in the books are one od the best i have personally i have read me and my friend still dispute who would win in duel BOOK jamie vs MOVIE Arragorn and i say movie not book because he has the ability to heal him seld
They should have 1v1’d on rust
It would have been something to write in his Good Dead’s book. Fockin Jaime Lannister, Wanted a “Clean” kill for his book lolololol
My boy choked tbh
6:15 what if… Ned rode north instead of south?
i mean,jamie not killing ned vs ned killing arthur isnt the same,ned is still hand of the king,and jamie wants his brother back,he has reasons to not kill him,meanwile arthur was a loyal guard to the king who just lost the war that killed neds dad and brother
JamievNed in their conversations, is the notion of Honor on the general sense..compared to GRRM view of honor. Ned is the rigid, cold general Honor, while Jamie is the GRRM view of honor..doing what is right.
In the books, Ned isn’t anything special with a sword.
It's because Ned killed Arthur Dayne, the man who knighted Jamie. This is why it's a big deal in the show when Ned doesn't kill Arthur Dayne, he loses to Dayne, and it is Howland Reed who stabs Dayne in the back. It shatters the Myth of Ned Stark as a great swordsman. It's also why he doesn't fight in duels and doesn't want people to know what he can do: Because he cannot live up to the reputation of the man who bested Arthur Dayne. He's a fighter, but he's just not at that calibre.
Very good points so far. Ned is a c*nt. I've always seen Jaime as *the hero* in the story in many ways. I mean sure Jon Snow is of course a good candidate for "the hero". I do however love Stannis as well. Of all the kings he's by far the best one for the Realm.
Well, except for listening to Melisandre and burning people alive and stuff. Of course. ^^
"You served well, when serving was safe." Ned I love ya but it must have taken all Jaime's strength to actually slay the king. Jaime was probably aware at some level, that his actions could have led to extreme consequences for him.
16:00 totally disagree, entirely different scenarios, arthur dayne would fight with no legs like the knight in monty python
Jamie betrayed Arthur
This video had 666 likes. Fixed it.
Kengancore
Ned is Jagathi Kahn
Good character analysis here. (sans political relativism) 👍🏾
Jamie pretty much abandoned the mad kings children to get slaughtered and his oath included protecting them so what is Jamie's excuse for that?
During the Sack of King's Landing Jaime had been summoned to the throne room by the king. And the children killed by the Lannisters were the Mad King's grandchildren, not his children.
wheres the elden ring wizard man
Idunwanimtano wuhicando 😂