Newly Unearthed ASOIAF Drafts! Discussion/Speculation on the Winds of Winter
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 26 พ.ย. 2023
- Hello everyone! Today I'm joined by @fantasyhaven1 to discuss new drafts of A Feast for Crows and what they may mean for the future of #asongoficeandfire.
Be sure to subscribe if you enjoyed this video! What do you think? Is there anything I missed? What do you think of #houseofthedragon so far? More #asoiaf content is on the way!
Fantasy Haven's channel: @fantasyhaven1
Original Reddit Post: / spoilers_extended_grrm...
Thank you all for watching! I'll be back with more theories soon.
My Twitter: / quinnthegm - บันเทิง
It is so insane on what bread crumbs we fans have to depend on without Winds.
At this point I've made my own story in my head and call that Canon we will never get another ASOIAF story :/
@@seankirby8892 I hope we get new books but yeah hope starts to thin.
ditto, I think most of the fandom is in this camp@@seankirby8892
I stopped getting my hopes up. I've taken the time to read other series in the meanwhile.
@@seankirby8892same, I have 2 timelines, one where Jon wins and one where tommen wins.
“Witness” could mean to testify in court, so it could refer to Tyrion testifying against Jaime and Cersei
Could be... but is it more likely than Tyrion watching Blackfirecest (fAegon x Varys)?
Yes. 😑 because that’s retarded.
I’ve never really thought that young griff might actually be a targ and not a blackfyre but now I can’t stop thinking of the idea of Aegon and Jon teaming up as brothers to take back the throne
I want Jon to get to have a sweet moment with his big bro
GRRM said something in an interview once about the "fAegon" nickname that makes me believe that he truly is Rhaegar's son.
@@PackLeader-1990 That calling him Faegon you have already decided what he is.
Dany = Tyreck Lannister confrimed at last!
It's known
"pretend it's a horse"
My impression was that the "witness to incest" line was just saying Tyrion could be a witness to prove tha Tommen and Myrcella were basrtards and not Robert's children, which would be a benefit to Dany to prove they're usurpers. I don't think Dany and Young Griff would be considered incest because their closest common ancestor is Aegon IV which is like 8 generatoins back, and even first cousins relationships aren't considered incest in the story.
Very good point!
Well, it would be aunt/nephew incest publicly, as no one thinks that Faegon is a blackfrye except the fans
1:50 so Drogon was a horse in an alternate universe 🤯
The Stallion that Mounts the World
The faceless man kills Pate with the coin and assumes his identity. That makes him a Patefaced man, right?
I think "witnessing incest" refers to Victarion and Euron 😏
Or Tyrion and his uncle
Aren't The Sorrows the ruins of the Roynar kingdom? Nobody really goes through Valyria.
Yeah I realized that after the stream
In the show I'm pretty sure the Sorrows are Valyria so he probably got confused.
George, for the love of God. Please. Look what you are doing to us.
43:25 "He scrapped the time year five skip" 💀
I caught that when it happened and I was proud of the fact that I contained myself
What if Wyman had Davos in disguise within his retinue to help spirit away Arya, who would be useful to Wyman as a potential heir to Winterfell should he switch to Stannis’s side.
GRRM may have changed it when he realized he could use Wex’s presence at Winterfell to reveal Rickon’s survival.
Does anyone know where to find the complete drafts ?
I would have liked to read in particular the AFFC prologue with Rosey in PVO
Wouldn't this be around the time that Tyrion tells Jaime about Cersie/Lancel incest? Could that be the incest he witnessed?
Westerosi don't consider it incest if it is between cousins lmao.
This actually wasn't a draft for AFFC, it was a draft of ADWD before it got too big. Maybe seeing it as a remix of the original Dance of the Dragons will give more and different impressions when rereading this draft
yeah but Dance was split in two so this still applies, only the name changes. What's interesting about this is that we get to see how George planned some events to follow ASOS and that's pretty much undeniable. Maybe some are no longer relevant but it still shows what GRRM planned at some point, just some interesting bits.
I agree, but I'm not sure JLchevz really understands what you're saying. If we assume that the Dance of Dragons book name is a reference to the relationship between Targaryens, then the draft would suggest that this dance is not a violent one where Targs face off, but instead a Dance of love where Aegon and Dany get closer. That might suggest that the marriage is to Aegon, and Dany's push to return home comes from Aegon, and the conflict that ensues is due to Aegon being a fake, or asserting his own authority over Dany (which she wouldn't tolerate, since she has the Dragons).
@@JLchevzFeast was split in two. Dance was supposed to be the fourth book, but after GRRM abandoned the 5 year gap, the fourth book became Feast. Then Feast grew too big in 2005, so GRRM split the book.
i loved this! thank you so much. like you guys said most information we've got in years
That outline is fascinating AF!
Thank you for the video Game Master
Must add these to the library
“Yes we’re going to lose… I can get us the armor” might be a quote from Stannis. It could be part of his plan for the battle of ice. It could be a similar scenario like Cantuse proposed with his Nightlamp theory.
“Yes we’re going to lose”: meaning we will pretend to lose. “ I can get us the armor”: We can fish the dead Frey and Bolton soldiers out of the lake and “forage” their armor. Then they can march back to Winterfell with the Manderlys, Karstarks, and Stannis force in disguised as Frey and Bolton soldiers.
Stannis tells Massey “You may hear I’m dead, it may even be true”. It could be why the pink letter references Stannis being dead and Ramsey having his magic sword.
Maybe “Yes we’re going to lose. I can can get us the armor.” Is something Stannis says to Horpe, Theon, Asha, or a group of his men and/ or the northmen/ mountain clans. It could be for Theon 1 or 2 in Twow, or Asha 1 or 2. Or possibly even in a Bran chapter, since we know he’s most likely in one of the ravens in Theon 1.
hm good idea, otherwise the Jon part makes very little sense.
I forgot the mad mouse existed, honestly
The gate was the gatehouse. Where merci worked
HORSE THEORY CONFIRMED!!!
Really interesting discussion, this is all so interesting and a bit sad too that we haven't got more material to work with lol but oh well George takes his time
Isn't The Gate the name of the playhouse Mercy is at?
i love it how the video begins with "without further ado"
I’m going to Quinn.
I’m quinning
time for a qoon sesh
I don't remember where I heard it.... but I really like the idea that Rickon is a literary shaggy dog. Lol
At this point I already consider Preston's Winds of Winter cannon.
Bit weird to consider it a cannon. Unrelated, do you consider it canon?
nah its not
Fan fiction bullshit
Then you really don’t like the series on its own merits. You’re just a fan of outrageous theories with middle school fan fiction tier writing
@@WeirdVoyager I simply prefer projects that have any chance of getting done.
You can keep on waiting another decade for one book (which was 1/3 done in 2011 btw). Enjoy the wait
Maybe the two Dany marriages are she accepts xarros proposal, he betrays her and she has him killed like in the show and second marriage is hisdar? Would make the timing match better with him stating before Quentin would show up right before or after wedding or on same day
Wonder if pate was supposed to steal a book about the death of dragons that might implicate the citadel and faceless men. With dragons reawakened maybe the faceless men don't want to be in danearys' sights
Griff and young Griff for Tyrion "witness incest" would be INSANE!! My Jon Con would never but before GRRM wrote his POVs, who knows what bells would've done to him
Wow that'd be fucked
GRRM’s been very clear that Griff is not interested in his own son 😅 yes he’s adopted but his intentions however misguided never passed into predatory
the first marriage has "?"s and "no" which I think means at beginning of dany arc she says no to marriage but at end she says yes
The Gate is the theater the play is performed in.
12(b)(6) motion to dismiss barristan Selmy from the kingsguard
Let's goo!!!
I wonder if the witness to incest Tyrion bit could be Young Gryff and Septa Lemore (possibly his mother).
Lemore is Lyanna Stark and Young Griff is Jon's twin brother. Each takes after a different parent
I always thought his mother was Saera/Sara, Illyrio’s dead love who he kept the hands of! Septa Lemore seems to be along for the ride but not the most invested in Young Grift’s journey
@@Monotremewisdom I think there are a few subtle clues:
-She's had a child and is roughly the right age.
-She is somewhat flirtatious and gets naked infront of Tyrion, but when young gryff is about she calls him wicked and rebukes him for mentioning it.
-Illyrio brings up the Blackfyres shortly before her introduction.
- Illyrio only says she is 'gone', Tyrion assumes dead.
- Illyrio seemingly makes a big deal of keeping her hands etc as a momento.
- We know Illyrio is into subterfuge, with the story of his wives Tyrion even thinks its strange he took a second wife of such low standing over the rich merchants daughter.
Much like moon meteors.... if you re-read the chapters with the thought in your head it reads very different. Just remember to put a tin foil hat on before you do 🤣
@@hillbillypowpow I don't buy it... We are in Neds head, he is haunted by the scenes at the tower of joy and the bed of blood, the winter rose and the symbolical references to the others that frame the dream scene with death and melancholy. Twins are possible but Lyanna just like Qynten is dead - it doesn't serve the story in any constructive way for things to be different. Not that we'll ever probably know but you gotta look at George's work as a whole to see that's not really his style, Twins maybe - he does riff off of a lot of twin related source material but for me it doesn't work.
Pretend to be a horse? Could I ask you a quick question about Tyrek Lannister?.......
The "mountain's skull" that was brought to Dorne belonged to one of the dwarves with an oversized head that was killed by bounty hunters who were searching for Tyrion. Possibly even Penny's brother.
With regard to the mountain’s missing teeth:
I believe the mountain may have had some missing teeth that the Dornish would be able to identify him by but the skull Swann ends up bringing will have all of its teeth or have more teeth than it should. “Mayhaps”
The theory I liked is the Lannisters paid the maesters to forge Brightroar as they were the few outside Valyria to be able to forge Valyrian steel. They then used that money to hire the Faceless Men to kill cause the Doom of Valyria because they hate magic.
i think the gate = the old name for the play house
At the tenth instance of crosstalk I went out and bought the album.
Awesome
Witnessing insest... Little finger doing sansa? Then after ppl know sansa reveals her self and starts her own journey
This is really interesting stuff! Thanks for making the video! I do wish you guys would listen to each other a little more. Sometimes it felt like less like a conversation, and more like 2 separate conversations that weren’t fully engaging with one another. Not a criticism, just a recommendation. I love both of your channels :)
I agree! I enjoy both content creators so much it would be really cool to hear a bit more interaction and give & take! We can tell part of it is from the lag, that’s no one’s fault, so I’m sure with a better connection they’d be able to be at the same speed 👍
I think it's a mixture of discord lag and my ADHD making me a bit impatient 🙈
Wtf is that fantasy haven on. This random ass
comment
Where did this come from?
George just release what you've done lmao
Giants have teeth unlike human teeth, so if they tried to pass off a giant's skull as the Mountain's, they'd probably get rid of the teeth.
I think the Northern plot is one of the big areas where these documents indicate a huge change in how he was planning on handling the story over the course of writing AFFC/ADWD. None of Stannis' march, none of the Winterfell chapters (no Reek), and at least some of the Tycho role was covered by Davos, and not as much of Jon's story.
It's been obvious for a while that Jon's story in ADWD changed significantly over the years - from the previous Cushing library report, and I think GRRM has previously said he threw out a lot of the Jon stuff he had originally written for AFFC and intended to carry over to ADWD. This confirms how different it was - only 6 planned chapters, at least two of which we've seen from Cushing (corresponding to ADWD Jon I & III) instead of the 13 ADWD chapters we got. Jon's final ADWD chapter also seems to go ahead of the timeframe of much of the rest of the book, which already went far ahead of where AFFC ended.
All this to say, I'm pretty much certain now Jon wasn't originally going to die in ADWD. His story was going to be dealing with Stannis/fallout of ASOS then resolving Hardhome, likely now in person. This would be reasonable in 6 chapters. His remaining story would have been covered in TWOW, dying part-way through the book and remaining absent for the remainder to make us really think he isn't coming back. This would also fit in with the Northern plot absent from this outline - anything we would have seen (Stannis' march, Reek's chapters, Tycho [or possibly Davos in this alt reality]) would have occurred in the first part of TWOW.
Very interesting insight into how what was originally one book spiralled into the two we've got and bits at the start of the next one (still not released!)
22:45 are you guys talking about Arryk and Erryk?
Bingo
@@QuinnTheGMCan’t wait to see that in season 2 (or 3)!
grrm sayiing tyrion is a villain origin doesnt mean he will turn into a literal villain (tho he did unforgivable acts but villain as in the perception and lack of redemption, not his worse point), its about how hes seen and reclaimed by others, hes already a "villain" and past said origin because ordinary people see him that way as seen in the gate play, he doesnt need to ever be an actual one or get worse because its about perceptions, his plot may as well get him back to "light" after his current grey state, specially with penny around
Don't hurt the dragons T.T
I think Darkstar will play a major role.
I think so as well. With how GoT ended, I think its possible that George might take Jon parentage in a different direction and make him the true son of Ned and Ashara which would make him a Stark/Dayne and give him a claim to Dawn which we are all certain is Lightbringer. So I can defintely see Jon and Darkstar having an intense rivalry to claim the sword. It may also make sense to have Young griff be Lyannas and Rhaegars child so Jon has a cousin.
Jon as a Dayne/Stark makes way more sense.
Darkstar is the Great Other
@@brodyestes2376then who is the child of lyanna x rheagar then? If there is no child, then whats the promise eddard stark keeps thinking about
@@theosumper227 young Griff.
do you guys think tyrion knowing the truth about jaime being the real father of joffrey, tommen and myrcella will ever come in to play in the story? maybe as part of how he gets revenge on both jaime and cersei by exposing them for being incestuous lovers?
A proper prologue for winds is a POV north of the wall or in skagos with davos, perhaps a spy in volantis
tyrion and his daughter?? his daughter and her mother putting on a show.?..
MM is HR.
But who is Yollo?
We'll get Winds, even if it is not he full Winds GRRM wansy. I mean he has 1100 pages or so done. He can literally just release that and bam, book done.
Yea… not really… last year he said he has 1100 written with 400-500 to go, like a week ago he says 1100 written, 100-200 left to go. To me that says he’s probably written several thousand pages and is going thru a process of removing certain things, possibly for the book after but I’d wager a lot of it is him and his editors going back and forth and weeding out or tweaking things in a way that’s consistent with what’s already been released, things like dates, travel times, and how did what, when and where… these tedious little things are what allow readers to read between the lines and concoct these “wild” theories… grrm is often writing in subplots well after the fact and mixing things up just a little bit coukd completely ruin subplots, or even the main plot.
Point being, if he released it now it would be a book, and probably a disaster… I’d rather wait and have a masterpiece in the future than rush a disaster today.
We all would probably prefer that even if we dont know it.
I like the idea of Jon dying at hardhome and then coming back as a wight, being captured, and then being brought back to Mel to get resurrected
No way!
Wait, is Quinn the GM a fellow nerdy lawyer?
He’s a law student, I believe
I hope to be in about 2.5 years, I’m a 1L
@@QuinnTheGMGood luck! Law school is tough.
I need to have a definitive answer on this because it is driving me nuts. Quinn is the same person as red team review who works with Preston Jacobs, right?
No, I’m a different person.
Oh wow. Sorry for assuming. Your voices sound almost exactly the same to me
They do sound pretty similar
If I hear the word "interesting" again I'm gonna lose it
Could the "Prince of Sorrows" be Tyrion? Going by the theory that Gerion is the Shrouded Lord?
Gerion had no children right? It would make sense for him to choose second-son Tyrion as his heir should he leave an inheritance
@@hillbillypowpowno Gerion had a child. Albeit a bastard daughter who may not be meant to inherit before Tyrion, but I think he would leave something for her before his nephew.
How To Avoid Bloodshed:
Step 1: Marry Aegon even if he's a Blackfyre
Step 2: Ally with Dorne for Revenge
Step 3: Deal with the Crazy, unrightful, murderous queen to become heroes in the eyes of nobles, save and ally the Tyrells, using Varys' connections should come in handy.
Step 4: Offer Stannis to help with the Others & Marriage between his Daughter and the Heir of the Iron throne (you could also have him assassinated after or during the fight with the Others).
Honestly, reading this was probably 1000% more interesting than civ pro lol
Yeah as much as I love nonmutual issue preclusion this was pretty great to read
How is it possible that they interrupt each other every single time one tries to talk 😅
I am afraid that someone will die in winds of winter
1:40 what a horrible noise!
Has anyone not even read the books but watches every one of these really deep dives?
Civil Procedure class? Sounds horrible.
Civil are non-criminal cases. A friend of mine is a lawyer in the area. Lots of work around disputes.
@@MrJero85 I am a civil trial attorney. I made the comment because I hated Civil procedure in law school. It’s a very boring class.
Let us be honest, Winds is never going to release because it if was, it would have a long time ago.
We have to ask ourselves why has it not released when the answer is obvious. George doesn’t want to touch the main series because it has expanded like a poorly planned city, much like Golem City.
Maybe it is better. Disappointment is inevitable when it comes to an ending because someone will be unhappy.
Only the Abbey of the Everyman can force George to release it. And they are busy with other things.
stop with this doomer shit man its coming out eventually
Video says 12 hours old. Wth. Are these show notes, book notes. All over the place with this one guys. Sandor is at salt pan getting his mind right. As the horse people say, "this is known."
I know Feast, and Dance got broke up, but so confusing.
Maybe it's me. I'll try a listen again later, but maybe clarify with what we already know is done through all the published books.
Clearly they are all horses, I don't even see how this is a discussion.
I appreciate your videos man. I’ve kind of slowly got turned off by Preston with all of his political shit and after I pretty respectfully suggested hey, why don’t you just make another channel and put all your political commentary on that? Carmine scolded me and was basically just being a dickhead.
Euron used a Faceless man to kill Balon, perfect sense he is using them to acquire the knowledge from the Citadel.
3 Hounds of Westeros perfect, as there are three hounds on their sigil 😂😂😂
Wait... this is some old draft for A Feast? And why are we digging through it? Why do i even ask, eh? Jesus...
Btw, How the Faceless Men would not be interested in the death of the Dragons? Aren`t those their old enemies, by way of being the source of power for Valyrians? And they could very well be given a job to kill the new ones, so they are doing their research and due diligence.
Also, my favorite theory is that Shadrich is connected to and or working for the Brotherhood. I mean his story about where he came from seems totally believable. I would totally buy it. But it would be nice.
(pretty much everyone knew that the Lannisters were looking for Sansa at that point)
- haha, @fantasyhaven1 made me imagine sweet robin is actually like the rabit in the Holy Grail.
Yeah, no guys, Shadrich is going to get the whole tsunami of returning one of the kids to Catelyn. Nobodys killing the Mad Mouse!
Just imagine, a tag team consisting of Jaime, Brienne and a big Monk (they accidentally collect him on the way of course) coming up against Littlefinger suddenly.
Wouldn't that be crazy to read?
I think that we, as a community, have reached a supremely sad point. GRRM has gone in way over his head and is getting constantly distracted. Those distractuons are natural and often times coated in a shit tn of money, but its still an annoyance to an obscene degree.
This man is the consultant to two TV shows about his works, is writing at least 3 different book series at the same time and doesn't even gave a proper outline where he'll go with his story.
At some point, he should just give us parts of the story. Release it in 10 different small books each containing 2 chapters. I dont care, it's been too long.
He isn't even proceastinating, he is just not writing what he should write. A song of Ice and Fire got him his acclaim and his fandom, all he has is due to these books. Why doesn't he focus on that? I couldn't care less what Dunc and Egg are doing, if Jon is still bleeding out. I wont watch a show about some distant past of Targaryen rulers and their in-fighting, if Daenarys hasn't even been to Westeros yet.
The show might have ended in an extrmely shitty way, but at least its over. I'm not waitong for the next season, not waitong to see if my favourite characters still live, I dont need to check for updates and all my theories have either been proven right or wrong or insignificant.
He should either just release what he has got, or just say "fuck it, I wont write it any further, I'll just post all my shit somewhere and the fans can see what the ending would habe been."
It would be closure. But no, he just keeps us all waiting. It feels insulting, to pay for his other stuff, if the original series isn't even close to the finish line
It’s time we just moved on. He didn’t make any progress on the book this year. It’s never getting released. Giving GRRM your attention, at this point, is just uncalled for
No way Sansa takes the north for Rickon. In the show she couldn’t have cared less and wrote him off as already dead. I believe she wants to take the north for herself. The show was trying to tell us that
Sansa did care in the show, she just knew Rickons fate was sealed. She was traumatised by Ramsey.
@@Hero_Of_Oldno she didn’t care. Jon cared though. Jon>Sansa
@@Hero_Of_Old And in books she been traumatized to trust no one. She doesn’t know Rickon and he doesn’t know her because he was 3 or something the last time they saw each other. He wasn’t raised by Starks like she was. He could rock up acting like anyone. It’s no different then Westeros seeing Dany as an outsider. Rickon is becoming who he is on Skagos. He’s Skagosi now.
@@jimboslice6367 show: Jon>Sansa
Book: Sansa>Jon
@@Hero_Of_Old she’s not a bitch in the books…yet
Talk about other fantasy books, move on from ASOIAF at least for a time. Everything is nothing but speculations and absurdities.
The book will never be released, move on, there are so many other fantasy series that are just as good if not better and deserve more attention and discussion instead.
I love these theories but y’all gotta stop talking over each other. It makes the video almost not worth watching
You should learn to coordinate to speak, is so annoying when you try to speak at the same time
Who cares
My nan.
My nan.
Old nan?
What if the incest Tyrion is a witness to is Jaime and Cersei. As in he will be valuable as a witness to depose Cersei
I don’t see why any of this is relevant or worthy of long form discussion. I guess it’s interesting to see his process but none of this is new information so much as just notes to himself of what the chapters needed to include in the already published books. Anything that’s not already in the books didn’t make the Final Cut from these notes. There’s no great mystery to it. This is just what it seems. Notes and ideas for a book long since published.
incorrect there seem to be from back in the day where Feast and Dance were still one book and then they got spli. But we also know from GRRM directly that there was story left that he wasnt able to realisticly put into Dance. Aka these notes project into the early parts of winds as well.