Will This Exploit Destroy Minecraft Speedrunning?
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 14 มิ.ย. 2024
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A controversial technique has started appearing in Minecraft speedruns lately. Today I will give my opinion on the matter.
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"I beat the game in 5 minutes and it only took me 30 minutes"
It just doesn't add up
Ayy lmao
It isn't quite a TAS but it is getting there... Even those videos tend to be well edited to avoid showing pausing for long even if they go into parallel universes.
Thats the spirit of speedrunning baby
It's like superhot mixed with minecraft but dumb
Fun fact minecraft in it's newest snapshot added a new feature called "total world time" which counts time in the pause menu
Does it still discount loading time?
@@lukebomber yes
@@honema123456789 In that case, that sounds like a good timer to transition to imo.
lol, that was exactly what I was thinking would be the best solution (but in my head, I was thinking it as a possible mod implementation)
Thats really really cool. Doesn't solve anything for the older versions, but it is definetly a good step!
"Hold up let me check the wiki real quick."
"Let me just check the seed in another world"
@@Liggliluff Lmao
@@Liggliluff you can't /seed until the run ends
@@boriskogan5973 use the re create button
Pausing a speedrun is like taking a break during a marathon for water and to catch your breath and expecting it not to count towards your time
but a speedrun doesn't use real life time, it uses in game time
@@brandynamite3022 well thats the entire argument.
People think it should use real time but other think it should use in game.
Lots of speedrun games use real time and lots use in game.
The problem with in game time in minecraft is that it can be abused so hard to where it ruins the whole idea of a speedrun.
@@brandynamite3022 And it does so to give everyone as even a playing field as possible, due to the differences between high- and low-end PCs affecting load times, as mentioned at the beginning of this video. In-game time is, in essence, the Minecraft equivalent to time in a marathon in this analogy, hence why pausing and not counting it is, as OP pointed out, like taking a breather in a marathon and not expecting that time to be counted, it's just nonsense.
@@doggofv I don't even watch minecraft speedrun but everything you said is true
Truer words have never been spoken
So.... let's call it a PAS - Pause Assisted Speedrun. New category.
That actually would be cool, a pausing category and a no pause category
This puts what I was thinking best. I wanted to compare it to programming a TAS, but that felt like a bit much. This instead communicates the idea, without being too direct of a comparison to draw ire from detractors.
I think I'll take a PAS on that...
Or just glitched
And this could be generalised to RTA as its own category as well
real time, but when the game is paused the timer is also paused
(in case things in the game mess with the in-game timer so it's unreliable, RTA needs to be used but pausing is considered valuable for some subset of speedrunners)
There is trouble in what is defined as pausing, so either this ends up being "RTA but we pause whenever the IGT pauses so it's the same as IGT actually"
Or if we define pause to be explicitly the "pause menu" that is toggled by a special button press (start/escape) it might not work for every game
But likewise that latter definition is also useful for when the game doesn't even have an IGT but pauses are wanted to be allowed.
Aaand only a few hours after this was uploaded there's the first sub 10 run with several minutes of pausing in it! Insane timing
perfect, perfect, perfect
I’ll have to check that out, sounds interesting
@Oliver Lambert Its brentilda on twitch
Check todays vod at around 5:45 i think
@William Young He started the stream FSG but switched to RSG later and forgot to change the title
@@davidsnow5811 it only shows the title from the start of the stream
With this method, you can suffer a catastrophic mental breakdown in the middle of a run, pause the game, take a spiritual journey into the wilderness, forget who you even are, return 25 years later to relearn your native language, clip the longest fingernails in the world, unpause the game, then set the world record time.
lol
Good. Like honestly you all are seriously stupid if you have a problem with this. It should just be treated differently like a segmented run
@zxfefox, yeah, no rush, though.
Time! wr at 25 years and 2 minutes
@@jbdbibbaerman8071 Disagree = stupid. I agree though, pausing should have it's own category but it can't compete with pauseless runs, which are runs many do want to watch.
I wanna see the “world’s longest world record speed run” where someone starts a run and gets 99% done and then pauses and comes back to complete the final 1% in like a month
This. Be like 2 seconds under and just sit on it for a month. Then vlog about it and be like"you see that PC over there....that's a WR, but I'm going to show you all how fucking stupid the system is and sit on it for 3 months". Lol
@@jefftparker Then, when the moderators have to check it, put a splice somewhere (like one week paused time in) just so they have to watch the entire thing just to invalidate it. ^^
@@marioanothlp you don't need to, they will have to check it if it is a wr
@@Pihsrosnec Of course but just like as a final middle finger, you know?
@@marioanothlp but if there is a splice they only have to find it, if there isn't they have to watch the entire thing looking for one
Ah yes, Minecraft, the turn-based speedrun
10 hours run with 15 minutes content.
In some games it's legit. Usually those are already turn based from the start.
There is dcss, it's a rogue like ascii graphics turnbased game and there are few speedrun categories: turns and ingame time. Both of these require are completely different play styles.
@@funguy398 I am familiar with that one! crawl.akrasiac.org/scoring/players/themeinteam.html
It's true that RTA and turncount are very different categories in that game. Same would be true of most turn based 4x.
@@funguy398 there's igt in dcss????
I thought they time that in rta
"Pausing during a long run because someone knocks on your door is fine. Pausing to analyze the situation is not."
That's something I can jump on board with
Bruhh, you are here toooo!!
Even that's kinda stupid as your never know if someone was really on the door or not.
@@justsomeguyontheinternet.4398 both this and the fact someone can feign going to check the door but actually be silently looking at the screen
This presents two problems. The first is that a player could pretend to be answering the door or otherwise attending to something urgent whilst in fact using the opportunity to collect their thoughts. The other is that, should that knock on the door occur just before a difficult section of the run, it's impossible to prove that it was in fact a real urgency and not cheating.
Judging someone’s intentions, especially if they don’t use a webcam or mic, is virtually impossible. A rule like that would constantly be broken.
Someone should set the world record minecraft speedrun with a week long pause during it just to show how stupid the current pause rules are
They didn't play in that time, so also not actively do the speedrun
*The longest minecraft speedrun wr*
@@schwarz8614 still counts
@@schwarz8614 they don't play while they're pausing regardless. There's no difference.
"If you agree with a thing, you have to do it in the most extrw way every time"
Okay, you're not allowed to pause any kind of game ever for any reason from now on. In a cave and need to get some food irl? Leave the game running just standing there in the open. Remember, PaUsInG tAkEs AwAy ThE sKiLl
Imagine a F1 race where people can just pause during the qualifier circle. "And Schumacher is taking a pause to consolt his team if he should go 400km/h in the next turn or if he should slow down to get a better angle, and whats this? He left his car to check his tires in the meanwhile, what an outstanding move"
I read this in Murray Walkers voice.
@@thomegatherion924 its just natural
It exists and it is called flashback in the F1 games
@@HaXD1209 the F1 games aren’t as competitive as real F1 (obviously).
A better comparison would be forza or gran turismo. Which disables rollback in comp races.
Imagine F1 race where you can ram the raining, circle around starting line on roadside and claim victory. But speedrunners are using every engine glitch and every rule loophole to cut time and see this as a normal thing to do.
Karl’s really working hard to become a full time Minecraft TH-camr
He needs to hit the 100 billion goal!
@@sunitaadhikari6081 the year is 2025 Karl has 1 billion pewds lost it all
Ey rocky
He liked your comment, I'm assuming unaware of the sarcasm
oh
-Start run
-pause game
-come back in a week
-get world record
-pausing banned
-world record banned
-Start run
-/seed
-Pause the game
-Analyze and route seed
-Resume
-Get world record in random seed LUL
-???
@@N1ghthavvk damn I didn’t even think about that
@@Zero-fg2tm Well, the rules ban this practice, but yeah :D
@@N1ghthavvk you cannot /seed I think
"I need to practice more."
*pauses game*
"Well im gonna practise a few runs on my other pc"
@RSGJ - or even better. Lemme just pause while I boot up the same seed in creative to find a nether fortress and bastion. Technically it wouldn’t be set seed speedrun since you started the second world after the actual speedrun.
this is a fantastic point with mc speedruns you could simply have several people around you ready to load up your seed as you do...this can give huge advantage...oh ya we can pause the game aswell to watch them all do the seed and plan the root....
@@benma1116 Someone should actually do a meme video about that to demonstrate how dumb it is. I would do it but i am shit at speedrunning so i would probably get like half an hour even if its a set seed.
@@DigiBullet23 The rules of Minecraft include: "Remember not to check the seed before the run is over in random seed categories" and "Calculator functionality more advanced than you'd find on any given 4-function calculator is banned from use in speedruns"
@@DigiBullet23 The rules of Minecraft include: "Remember not to check the seed before the run is over in random seed categories" and "Calculator functionality more advanced than you'd find on any given 4-function calculator is banned from use in speedruns"
Imagine having a speedrun competition at a GDQ type event and the person who wins is the one who finished last.
That's even likely. Maybe we can just drop the word 'speedrunning' here. Give that sport a new name.
That kinda happened in a Sonic the hedgehog race.
@@markus-hermannkoch1740 Why drop the name now? People used the "well it's built in the game" to give an excuse to use glitches and cheats and still call it a speedrunning. Speedrunning integrity has long since been thrown out the window and has a completely different value now than it ever has before, in fact, going against this built in measure beyond just making a new one of the insane amounts of "categories" is going against modern "speedrunning" values.
"Alright guys, I've just gotten to the nether but I'm feeling kinda tired, so I'm gonna leave the stream up on the pause menu while I sleep, It's fine I can still PB when I wake up in the morning"
Let's say this speedrun takes 18 hours. How does that sound now.
@@Voidling242 Most speedruns of that length have their own special rules, with a budgeted amount of timed breaks. For example BoTW 100% permits a couple 8 hour pauses for sleeping because the speedrun literally takes multiple days. But even then the amount of time you can pause for is budgeted and regulated, it is hardly comparable to unlimited pausing.
@@Voidling242 this exists - ezscape made a video ages ago about some of the longest games that are ran - having 5 minutes of pauses in a 10-15 min speedrun is a completely different topic then a 8-14 hr JRPG run where you have to memorize fast menuing often in a language different than than what you speak for the sake of saving time on cutscenes in text heavy games.
Thats not at all applicable to minecraft imo and it's akin to speedrunning a NES game with a controller with a turbo button - should be a different category if anything - it's not in the spirit of the game - it's playing cheats on and just doing the math yourself.
casey pavelko
To be fair, seeing someone beat Ninja Gaiden with Turbo Mode on would be pretty cool.
It would be a totally different category but still cool.
@@sirapple589 I would watch that - would be wild - though I feel like it would be a hiderance on fast tapping levels.
I'd love to see a top ninja gaiden runner teach the route to one of the new top NES tetris players as well - input speed, fast reaction, & pattern recognition would translate well (imo of course)
Pausing in a speedrun to think and analyze or calm your nerves is like if you were in a hundred meter dash at the Olympics and calling a time out so you can catch your breath
True tho
I like how you used a metaphor about speed running to describe speedrunning
Good analogy
It’s not like calling a timeout, it’s like the referee calling a timeout.
@@thesaroscycle_archive it’s the people running pausing the game, not the mods or judges.
As easy as making 2 categories. Wonder who will watch pause speedruns then...
id say to force players to open to LAN in any%; you can change settings but it doesn't pause
Who would not love looking at a head to head speed run live at an event where they are mostly pausing and scratching there heads.
@@bobjones-wt2mk exactly.
theres a difference between Super Mario Sunshine pause-clipping that happens once or twice and takes 5 seconds that has a goal to getting items
vs a speedrun where they pause every time they almost die to think or pausing to take a break
speedrunning is about quick thought and quick action, not being a loser who pauses every minute
@@johncenaplayingstarcraft9580 Yeah for sure, im smiling just imagine a head to head rase on games done quick or something when the mindcraft player that finishes 2h after the other is the winner :')
@@johncenaplayingstarcraft9580 As someone who speedran Croc: Legend of the Gobbos Any% and 100%, hundred percent was grueling, part of the skill was being able to sit there for 2+ hours and teching nonstop, that shit is exhausting. If I could have paused at any time, what is the point of the run then?
I think that most people would consider speedrunning: "Beat a game as fast as possible" and not "Beat the game with a timer as low as possible". If possible, the game should be modded to include paused time into the timer. Then again, I don't even know if the problem still persists. A modded timer seems to be the best way though.
when you open your game up to lan it still runs the game in the pause menu
I love speedruns, but when you pause a lot of the time it loses this special challenge which I really treasure about it.
some glitches also something like this and ruins the fun, so i only watched glitchless
Half Life 2 speedrunning is a great example for this. You can clip through everything by quick save & load, but it's not really pleasant to watch
i totally agree, but why not make subcat for pause users, that way they have their fun, and others will have own.
when i didn't know about speedruns much, i was thought the same about any%, cheaters abusers, where is challenge in that etc etc, now i understand how fun those buggy meses can be, and how challenging they are.
Yes, pausing is not even close in comparison, and yes it cut a fair bit in challenge, but just give them their corner, let them have their way.
lol, du hier?
I am pretty sure I got eye cancer from watching that Perfect Dark speedrun. How is this even fun to run? Constantly flashing yourself with menus, so fascinating...
If you keep pausing to plan stuff out and calm your nerves you’re basically making a segmented speedrun at that point.
Agreed
I think this is the best and most accurate comparison I've seen.
Not necessarily segmented, but you are essentially playing in slo-mo. If infinite pauses are allowed, why not pause every other frame?
I'm glad I'm not the only person who thinks the same way about this.
Time-attack, not segmented.
The answer is quite simple, make a "no pause" category and a "pauses allowed" category.
Exactly this I’m surprised more people haven’t put this forward. I don’t really see this as any different to any%
Minecraft already has dozens of categories. It would only further splinter the leader board
@@jeltje50 It's still a simple solution. Other games have many categories. How does more categories hurt, it gives people more chances to get onto a leaderboard, also the bragging rights to those who can pull high placements in both "pause" and "no pause" catagories.
or make a rule where a player has to open to LAN, where pausing is disabled yet pulls up settings
a simple solution but not a good one. not really a speedrun when u can take all the time in the world
Imagine checking your favorite game and seeing a speedrun for the first time, hearing about people beating minecraft as quickly as possible
Just to see the player pause in front of a block and start talking to himself for a while then running for a few seconds and doing it again
Yeah, truly the most interesting experience
"Time, it's a Speedrunner's mortal enemy"
RNG: But Wait There's More!!
The time was just the first course. I know you're hungry as a horse
seed>>33 go brr
RNG costs time :)
Not just speedrunners - every kind of runner's mortal enemy. I tried to beat Dr. Robotnik's Mean Bean Machine without rotating and RNG was really frustrating.
Yeah! Time more like the friendly rival. RNG is the arch nemesis
Just a heads up, in the latest "beta" (called snapshot) of Minecraft (21w16a) they added a new statistic called "Time in world" that will take into account even time while the game is paused.
While that's great, the issue of what to do for the older version categories still remains, though... Would creating a patch for older versions be against the "vanilla-spirit" of MC speedrunning?
Even if 1.17 is in the same category as 1.16 the drops are massively changed and people play 1.16.1 cuz no brutes but in 1.16.2 and above theres brutes the max pearls in trading is 4 i think and the drop chances for string and pearls also drop obbi too
@@213riteshvig2 Also in 1.17 the stronghold will be lower/harder to get to, more reasons it wont be used.
@@farkler4785 Part 1 of the Cliffs and Caves update won't implement the new depth of the underground: at this point, it doesn't look like there's any reason to expect 1.17 (part 1) strongholds will be any different from 1.16 strongholds.
@@farkler4785 Yep
That clip with the constant pauses gave me a sort of headache that im sure would be akin to an epileptic seizure if i was prone to having seizures
If you ask the average person on the internet to say what a speedrun is, it's beat a game as fast as possible and by pausing you're not beating the game as fast as possible
yeah but I wouldn t reall give any decision making power to the average person on the internet lol :D I
@@jakubbalsanek4207 eh, as a partial outsider, id say to limit pauses to 10, or to make players open to LAN, as settings and other things can be accessed, but it doesn't truly pause Minecraft, run that while restricting internet access to Minecraft, and it causes no discrepancies but disables pausing
@@jakubbalsanek4207 And that's were you have made the mistake.That would kill the speedrun category. You would have no new blood coming in and the speedrun would die. It's what happens with games all the time. That's specifically how MMOs die. If you are going against what the general population wants, then don't be surprised when no one starts running the game. Of course there are limitations once you reach a point where the topic is too specific to the community. Deciding on a timing method is not though.
@@optidalfprime3904 I would ask the people that actually play/watch/are interested in the topic, instead of average person on the internet. It is much more important to ask the community interested in your game/topic then random people that don't give a shit.
@@jakubbalsanek4207 Yes and no. Again, it depends on the topic. Give people the general information about how the timer works and explain the problematic. You could easily just straw pole the thing then. Making such a desision is really not something one needs in-depth knowledge over. Also, it's obviously not about the random Jeremy on the internet. I am talking about people with at least interest in speedrunning. The random Jeremy wouldn't even bother to read the basic explanation so he wouldn't vote anyways.
The problem with only asking within community is that a lot of votes are made to serve their own interest when it should really be about the spirit of speedrunning and competitive integrity.
It's the same with Smash melee where the rules about controller legality are absolutely disgusting because people would be mad if they couldn'tt use controllers they paid hunderds of bucks for.
"I beat Minecraft in 20 minutes"
"But your timer says 5 hours"
"That's real-time, don't worry about that"
LOL
Yea... We don't do it here...
LOL
Lol
"I'm a gold medalist in the Idiot Olympics!" - The person who thinks in game timers mean jack squat.
If pausing comes with some tradeoff, like pause buffering in OOT literally takes time and the best players can do the same tricks unbuffered, then I think it's acceptable. Pausing to think/analyze without the timer still ticking seems entirely antithetical to speedrunning. Honestly the best solution would be for a minecraft patch to keep the in-game timer running when paused.
Completely agree.
That is a novel solution for speedrunning, however the larger casual player base would find it a bit weird tho, so I'm not certain that it is the best solution or at minimum I don't think mojang would patch this considering the entire player base.
or to hide the f3 screen while paused
@@benjaminsmith8377 I think he might be saying speedrunners could play with a modified version of the game, where pausing wouldn't stop the timer. The "patch" wouldn't be an official update, just a modification of the game's code.
Or make up two separate categories: pause and no-pause.
1:11 "currently, there is no better example of this philosophical debate than with minecraft."
Aren't speedruns with pausing essentially just a really low-tech TAS? It shifts the focus away from technical ability and moment-to-moment action, towards knowledge/pathing/planning/etc.
i was thinking the same thing.
I mean I prefer TAS in the first place, since I think the question of "how far can this game be pushed" is more interesting than "how far can humans push it", but maybe I just don't get speedrunning.
@@thermophile1695 I'm also generally more interested in TASes. The point is that how categories are defined is important, and should be guided by what people find interesting as competitions and viewing experiences. Regardless of your own personal preferences (and mine), there is interest in both questions: what the theoretical ideal is, and what the current best human performance is. You could build a machine that easily exceeds what any human is capable of with a shot put, but an awful lot of people still want to see what can be achieved with fitness and skill.
There was some controversy when TASes first emerged because there was the perception that they were removing the reflex skill from speedrunning. That eventually got resolved when everyone came to understand that they were a fundamentally different category than live speedruns, and that both could exist without stepping on each others' toes. Allowing untimed pausing in live speedruns collapses that distinction and digs all those same philosophical questions back up. I think if you're allowed to stop the clock, you're essentially making a TAS, and should be counted as such.
Pausing in game timer is like stopping time in an exam to remember your answer and only counting time needed to write it
That's a really good analogy.
very accurate analogy
Except sometimes in a game, you do not yet have the answer and have to think it through.
@@BugsytheCat same as in a test. You just get it wrong on the test. Should be same for Minecraft.
@@WaywardVector If you think so. I just consider playing a video game to be different than doing a test. But we're all entitled to our own opinions.
If you're pausing over and over to make all the perfect moves, you might as well call it a TAS.
PAS
Pause-assisted speedrun :p
@@Intrspace you just invented a new category
@@Intrspace Sonic Boom: Rise of Lyric is all about this though it is tied to Knuckles infinite jump tech.
@@Intrspace Well, the Pause-function is pretty much a Tool. So, basically TAS. Lol
That's what I'm thinking! RSG in its current state is just real-time TAS writing with no going back
I think a 8 hr minecraft word record video would be funny. Pause take nap pause eat dinner pause bring up the seed on another computer. A 13 minute run in a 8 hr video.
Feels like it should be two separate categories. Quick thinking and reacting to circumstances are distinct skills from optimization and decision making based on information. It's like playing chess with or without a timer, it's two different game modes.
This is the only consistent answer. It works for every other speedrunning variation, why not timer? Should glitches count or not? Categories. Is any% or 100% considered a win? Categories. Which game version to run? Categories. If pause-allowed strategies become boring, it will just become unpopular.
Set seed and random seed are *more* different than pause-allowed and pause-disallowed, but nobody proposes banning set seed because it's not "true speedrunning" and "does not require thinking fast under pressure".
@@shy-watcher
The manner in which a run should be timed encompasses the entire game and all of its categories. It's not something you create a separate category for.
@@Rayer24 Why though? "It is this way" does not always mean "it should be this way".
"Currently, there is no better example of this philosophical debate, than with Minecraft"
Lol
Top 100 sentences that are baffling out of context.
"You will never find a more wretched hive of scum and villainy. We must be cautious."
@@karljobst 2:39 was that a speed running joke
Folding Ideas accidentally started the whole Colonialism video for the same reason.
The most effective way to force the hand of the community on the question on whether to allow unrestricted pausing is to submit a world record run that's like 10 hours long.
Id learn minecraft just to do this
Lawful evil type of vibes
like a malicious compliance thing, that’d be funny lol
Dat a challenge?
Find a way to back-calculate the seed from observed terrain, then route the run on an alt, come back, and play out a set-seed run.
“sorry guys my mom said i have to walk the dog i’ll be right back”
(15 minutes later)
“ok guys i’m back now just let me get wr”
"Ah shit, I need to check what this seed is and the coordinates for everything real quick."
Firstly that is already against the rules, secondly that would include running the command while in game and thirdly, i could manage looking at the seed in a second windows while running around collecting wood or sth so pause wouldn't be needed anyway
@@4crafters597 no, no you couldn’t.
@@roninnib6635 this is pretty late, but i think you mean the third point: You do have a phone, right? Do you have to pause every time when you walk around when looking at your phone? Seeing how you can manage that, i'm pretty confident you could do the same in Minecraft with enough training.
@@4crafters597 no, no, you couldn’t, you can’t physically control two screens using the mouse for both. Both the keyboard and mouse are used for both things you are suggesting, so unless you have a extra two arm, extra keyboard and mouse you are never doing it.
@@roninnib6635 did you even read what i said?
Let's say you are looking up a tree and just mining, that is a few seconds, or just running around in one direction, etc. I don't think that this is too little time, especially if you can code, you could automate much of the process such that you, without anyone knowing, can look at the seed on your phone, or even watch a video, etc. In other speed runs (granted, they are longer) the runners have power points open too read while running the game. Any enterprising individual could figure something out, just that you can't doesn't mean it's impossible
Runners are starting to get more obsessed with the score/time than actually going fast.
For real, it's call speed running, not score/time trials
Starting to? Lol. IGT and manipulation of was standard for decades before the 2010s
Pausing is ghey
Of course they are
@@Piero-yu5bn it is called time trials in mario kart
I like how Celeste's IGT deals with pausing; yeah you can pause buffer for a difficult tech, but the timer still counts the time while in the pause menu.
It's weird that it's not standard to me.
@@krell.1415 Well, Celeste is made to be run. Minecraft on the other hand wasn't made the same way, pausing in menus make sense for that sort of game if players want to track time spent playing on a specific world and not idling on menus
@@raggebatman Yeah I mean I have left Minecraft paused to go do something for several hours. It would have to be a mod or something so that it doesnt negatively affect general players.
That is the optimal solution. Tbh, what would be most ideal would be if the game had a speedrun mode that did this, anti-RNG'ed the droprates (look up how Riot changed how crit worked for an idea how that would be), and did a watermark based on checking the files etc. Considering how large the Speedrunning scene is for this game is, it would be worthwhile for the devs to make a mode for it. But, that's perhaps wishful thinking.
@@tinyknott sorry man, but when you take away the RNG, everything becomes too optimized that it'll not be fun for the viewers.
I feel like yeah. When you can pause it’s not a speedrun anymore. One of the coolest things I’ve ever seen in speedruns of any game is the ability to keep calm no matter what happens. For example in Pokémon I’ve seen runners get a shiny, shrug it off, and kill the shiny. It’s amazing how calm people can be when determined to do a run and that’s just thrown out the window when you can just funny pause
I feel like this problem is easily solved but just having separate leaderboards for runs that use pause and f3, and those that don't. I know there's already several leaderboards differentiating game versions but at least this would help.
Pausing mid-run is like checking google in jeopardy
Correction: It’s like Alex Trebek personally handing you the computer.
Someone needs to submit a minecraft run here he/she pauses in the middle of the game and go to sleeep and then continues the run 8 hours later.
and it ends a WR lol
If somebody did that in a WR I think it would accelerate the decisions. Technically that person didn't do anything disallowed, but I doubt mods would let that through.
Or perhaps even pause, copy the map file, plan out the whole speedrun on a second computer (laptop or w/e is handy), then back on the first computer unpause and hit WR. It does not break any of the rules, because random seed only states that you may not learn the seed during the run, which you are not doing here. You could argue it's just an extension of pausing to look at the F3 screen. And yet, you can clearly see that /something/ is wrong here.
And that's the only pause. With a sleeping cam.
@@MaskedDeath_ yeah I mean just literally play it as an ssg, make the portal directly in the stronghold and such... Doesn't. Break. The rules
@@MaskedDeath_ So fucking tempted to do this honestly. Never speedrun a game, let alone Minecraft, in my life and would need to clear up my HDD for the video recording but forcing mods to fix this dogshit strat might be fun.
BUT I wonder if learning the seed during the pause would give me enough of an advantage to get WR. WR holders, like Illumina or Dream, are extremely skilled.
Speed runner: I am going to set the world record minecraft speed run by only playing one frame a day
Surely this means you could load a new world, check your seed, pause the game, go to another computer and practice the seed 1000 times before making the actual run.....
sure does!
no, cus you can't do comands into an rsg run lol
@@cooly1052 There are ways to check the seed outside the minecraft client as soon as a world is loaded. I can do it on a second screen and it would never show up on the screen being recorded.
@@Adaephonable that would just be clandestinely cheating and has nothing to do with the pause debate
@@henryzhang3961 It actually does directly impact the debate. Pause can allow such cheating without it ever being apparent.
Imagine saying to someone "holy shit Minecraft was beaten in 20 minutes" and then sending them an hour-long video filled with pauses while the "speedrunner" thinks?
Imagine someone with a 25 minute estimate at GDQ using 40 minutes to finish the game in 22 minutes.
@@jst25 that reference seems too specific. Which one should I look up?
@@GizmoJuggler I don't think it has happened. it was just an hypothetical example of how stupid this is
@@jst25 GDQ uses RTA
Imagine saying it took you 20 mins to beat minecraft when it took you 5 years of practice.
I like the "high score" angle. If speedruns have pauses to make an arbitrary timer have a lower number, you're not doing a speedrun, you're gunning for a "low-time score".
Exactly, just make an RTA% and InGameTimer%
I mean, all speedruns to some extent are "low-time score runs".
I'm really not sure where the score run topic came from. I don't think score runs and speedruns were ever confused with each other, and they don't really cross any lines besides a general sense of perfectionism in games. Score of any kind as a metric of player success is inherently different from time played.
@@omnisel All speedruns are low-time score runs, but not all low-time score runs are speedruns.
@@omnisel
Didn't you watch the video?
Exactly my thought and I came here to say exactly that.
You are either trying to spend as less time as possible on a run - aka a speed run. Or you are spending as much time as needed on a single run to achieve specific numbers or a new highscore - aka your "low-time score" in that case.
So speedruns should split up in new categories and extend NP or ET ("No Pause" or "External Timer").
As well as someone would look for splices in submitted videos of ones speedrun, one would look if they paused or used an external timer to varify them.
I mean I would not punish someone if one paused a game, but would still be faster than one without pausing the same game and both had an external timer if they cometed in the same category. That way there should be a sweet spot on how many pauses one would at least need and how fast one could get information off that pause screen. I mean those are still skills. But Pausing a game should never be used to stop time and gain an advantage if you're speedrunning - because you are not competing to do it actually faster, but are competing for a better "virtual score" (in game time). And it shoud be treated as such - a different competition.
Abusing pausing excessively is almost like a step down from save stating to me, while it doesn't allow you retry it does allow you as much time as you need to observe your surroundings. A few steps down might be more accurate, but regardless I think there needs to be some limit or maybe a second category for that case otherwise the execution of a precise speed run would be lost
Why not just add another category for pausing, and have one without pausing
If every speedrunner took this advice every time someone said it, there would be hundreds of practically empty categories for random things in every game
@@danksmemington362 I didn't suggest that a category be created for every possible divide in the community, only that pausing/not pausing in Minecraft could be separate categories.
@@youreyesarebleeding1368 That's what literally every other person who suggested to split a category would say. If they didn't make a new category all the other times an issue like this came up, why should they now? The answer is they simply shouldn't.
@@danksmemington362 Because there's a ton of runs already with pausing and this is a massive issue that the community is split on, not like... a really one sided issue that everyone thinks should be changed and can easily be changed without consequences.
And then a category without F3 debug menu.
Next Formula 1 race:
"Yea I'll continue my fast lap in a second, just gotta pull over and calm my nerves a bit. I'll tell you when you can start the timer again."
Like Hamilton and the red flag yesterday?
I think this is one of the stronger arguments. Imagine we did a live MineCraft speedrun competition, and one of the players finishes first, but loses nonetheless because someone else paused their game and made better decisions as a result. This would be in-your-face stupid and the crowd would not have it.
@@dankwarmouse6248 Minecraft tournaments are held online and this does happen
@Frax not really....it's like finding a loophole in timing
Imagine an athlete requesting a timeout to catch their breath during a marathon.
Imagine them all agreeing: "Yeah, we agree that he needs to take some breath and sleep, we have no problem with that"
>Runner stops time to measure distance from competitors, temperature, & wind speed
>Unfreezes time
>Takes one step
>Freezes time to recalibrate measurements...
Imagine an athlete cutting the marathon course, only running 6 km and claiming the win.
No, wait. That's Mario Kart speedrunning 101.
@@KingHarambe_RIP literally beat me to it lmaooooo you could reset so many world records by only counting time where you were moving at your full potential speed lmao
@@LaatiMafia Your analogy fails because you're supposed to find shortcuts in that game. There are several race sports where it is up to you to find the best route, but none allows you to stop the timer.
Imagine a glitch whereby you could reset the ingame timer to an earlier value, would that invalidate the speedrun? If so, how is this any different? By pausing the game you are effectively subtracting time from the in game timer even though it was spent engaging with the game.
Just here to say I love the absolutely beautiful Celeste music of Mirror Temple at the start. Amazing video as per always💜
When SPEEDrunning stops being about the actual SPEED
How about we allow pausing but the player has to snort a line of amphetamine before each run? We could call it 'putting the speed back into speedrunning'.
I think Minecraft is a peculiar beast in speedrunning that there is far more rng and decision making than other games
it wouldnt be "kicking the can down the road" anymore, it would be "rolling a snowball down a mountain because you dont wanna pick it up yet"
Is it just me or did he randomly switch to an American accent at 1:58?
Karl, your videos and presentation style is fantastic. Keep up the great work and thank you for all the media you have published.
Thanks again!
It's like taking exams and being allowed to exit the class whenever you please without consequences.
I'm not a speedrunner but just as a spectator I prefer if there's no pausing, it makes it more exciting if everything has to happen in real time
Exactly! Watching very high speed gameplay randomly disrupted by complete stops of pauses trashes the entire experience of watching the speedrun.
It's not a spectator sport
@@GabrielAKAFinn yes it is, lmao. The community is codependent, and most definitely is a spectator sport. All e sports classify as such dude.
@@GabrielAKAFinn How is it not?
@@GabrielAKAFinn Given that competitive speedrunners are getting millions of views on Twitch and TH-cam...yeah I would say it has become a spectator sport
They are gonna use the forbidden pizza and coke trick
the 75~79 bpm exploit
lel
I hope this meme never dies
It’s hilarious how many people understand this reference its amazing
Just making sure, this is a reference to that obviously fake Mario speed run that used spliced footage?
"Obviously every game is different"
Fifa: hold my soccor ball
“Hello, you absolute legends.”
*”Time.”*
This really is the best take. These records are high scores rather than fastest runs.
Well played.
In a way, this is quite literally the truth. The IGT timer displays a time in minutes and seconds based on the time variable stored in the game that keeps track of the amount of time units (called ticks, 1 tick = 0.05 second) that have passed in a given save file, and these ticks stop accumulating when the game is loading or paused. So it really has become more of a high score (or in this case, low score) challenge rather than a speedrun challenge.
They are fastest runs according to the game. Real time has no connection to how fast the game is actually beaten.
@@thesaroscycle_archive That's why it's a high score chase. As said in the video the time shown in the game is arbitrary compared to real life time. People "speedrun" because it's the fastest in real life not because they can look at an in-game number to say it's fast. Imagine if you could start a game, pause for 50 hour and uss some kind of trick to credit glitch and get 0.0001 seconds to finish the game and it just becomes who can pause the fastest at the start. That's no longer speedrunning, it's just a challenge to see who can get the lowest number. You can make that a separate category or a different challenge but it's not speedrunning anymore.
They can be very interesting as the runs become more like regular chess than blitz chess, buy it's obvious they should be in their own category. Regular chess ratings are also different from blitz ratings for the same reasons.
@@gbt2009 Speedrunning using IRL time is just as much chasing a high score under your definition.
Aight gonna pause every frame so I can do a literal TAS run and it somehow be legal
literally my thought, it's soo close to be tas, like a rules grey area
But you guys probably still won't be able to compete, seeing that the new record has 11:08 even with pauses. That's already kinda world record
@@justsomeguyontheinternet.4398 the world record is 9:38 now, with a lot of pausing
Can you read? I was referring to the 9:39 WR, it's 11:08 ish WITH PAUSES that's all already world record.
@@justsomeguyontheinternet.4398 Oops sorry my bad, the new record with pauses is similar to the previous record without pauses so I thought you were talking about the old one
Love your vids - I haven't played minecraft for years and have barely dabbled in speedrunning other games, but always watch your minecraft speedrunning vids lol
i think a lot of people don't realise that the mods have already changed the pausing rules. i think the mods did a good job of handling the situation.
"Runs which are sub-13 in 1.16+, sub-25 in 1.9-1.15, and sub-23 in pre1.9 will follow a stricter guideline for pausing, retimed by us as follows: The first 5 seconds of each settings change pause are not timed. Dimension change pauses are also not timed. All pauses longer than 10 seconds will be shortened to 10 seconds, and pauses shorter than 10 seconds will be unchanged and timed. You may request other specific pauses be untimed so long as you provide a reason, the length of the pause, and its timestamp. Some reasons may include mental health concerns (such as panic attacks), irl interruptions which couldn’t be reasonably avoided, and other reasonings that involve things that are beyond the runners control. The pause must also make sense for the reasoning given, e.g. if you have short and frequent pauses and your reasoning was an irl disturbance and asked to remove all of the pauses, it may not be accepted. If the runner believes most of their pause time would not be counted under this standard for a run not meeting the threshold, they may request a retime." - speedrun .com mc rules
Everyones gangsta till Judge Jobst looks at your speed running community.
From gangsta to absolute legend
😂😂😂
the reason why minecraft random seed speedrun catagory is so popular is because that people loved the fact that you need to sight read everything and come up with decisions on the spot. pausing removes the reason why random seed glitchless is so fun since you basically remove the sight reading aspect of it. agree with everything you say
And you can pause, and load that random seed into a separate laptop to see where the nearest village is. See where the nearest fotress is. See how where the end portal is, etc. It's no longer a random seed run, but it would absolutely qualify as one
@@IRanOutOfPhrases absolutly correct. I do feel like pausing can be allowed in set seed speedruns since there isn't a sight reading aspect, but certainly NOT on random seed speedruns
@@IRanOutOfPhrases I think that can be easily avoided, if you are not allowed to get the seed before you finished the speedrun.
@@IRanOutOfPhrases How would you know what the seed would be though? I'm just curious and would like to know
@@hunorkovacs9526 it could be even more easily avoided by just now allowing pausing alltogether.
This is the first video of yours i had ever seen and u are such a good youtuber, that was a preaty interesting video man. Good video 10/10
Seems like Goldeneye might have the right solution, simply add a time penalty for each pause. The game can stay paused as long as you like, but each time you pause you lose time. This cuts down on quick, frequent pausing, which seems to be the least fun and the most difficult to watch.
I would also consider disallowing the use of F3 in speedruns, or splitting it into a separate category. It's a useful tool if you're having issues in a normal playthrough, but I don't think you're meant to play with it on all the time. It's not really that different from using the unlockable cheats in Goldeneye or Perfect Dark, which are also accessible directly in the game without glitches.
Yes, its called the debug menu for a reason.
Imagine doing rubics cube speedruns, but you can pause to study the cube as much as you want after every twist and turn.
This is a really good analogy
eh they know exactly what to do after looking over the whole cube anyways so it wouldnt help them
@@ninja8flash742 that's the point. It lowers the barrier to entry by making it easier, but a master of the technique wouldn't need to pause at all.
@@ninja8flash742 completely untrue. I used to speedcube and this is completely false even at the highest level (talking about the regular 3x3x3 cube). Speedcubers at the highest level know partially where they will end up after the initial 15 second look. Afterwards they still need to analyze one or two more positions (2L and LL). The only exception is blind speedcubing which is incredible but it uses a completely different solving method which is way slower but allows memorization of the entire solve using various complex techniques. In my prime I used on average around 5.5 cube scans which cost me a lot. The more I trained the faster I learned to analyze and with extra studying I could sometimes lower the average scans by predicting a few extra moves ahead. Speedcubing is complex. And NOBODY that does it regularly (not blindfolded) knows the outcome after the initial scam.
Pausing would render the entire sport meaningless because you could spend days analyzing it and finding a minimal step solution (one of the coolest categories actually) that will obliterate the world record and require everyone ever to do it that way if they ever wanted a shot at it. Pausing here or in minecraft or in pretty much any game for the sake of analysis is against the speedrunning ethos. There is no reason to allow it. All it does is alienate people and make the sport unwatchable. Either make a separate category (they did it with speedcubing) or remove it entirely.
@@SiMeGamer even top level speed cubers like feliks or max only plan 3 pairs of f2l in inspection on their personal bests, let alone average.
Feel like 'Time' is everyones 'mortal' enemy
UNUS ANNUS!
@@Survivoreleven Yesssss~~ 👁️🙏👁️
How about making it mandatory to go to the options/video settings screen when you are paused, so you can't see the screen and can't exploit the pause mechanic, but can still pause if necessary (say, someone's at the door).
take a photo with your phone
Emulated games can be “paused” so that the in game timers don’t increase. If you spend as much time pausing to think as you do playing the game then it’s not a speed run. Pause time should be added to overall times imo
i mean that gameplay at the 7th minute was basically playing the game frame by frame, at that point its too similar to using emulators as you said, just a bit more annoying
I thought speedrunning has always been a combination of test of skill and test of endurance, both physical as well as mental. By being able to pause, you take away the latter. Like, it's like pausing the stopwatch while solving a Sudoku.
"Hey look, I completed this Sudoku in 30 seconds!"
"You mean 2 days?"
"No, I only counted time spent writing numbers."
What a great time to put out this video. Brentilda just got a sub 10 minute run with over a minute and a half of pausing.
Such garbage
@@UhohitsRenaudV4 ???
@@mobile_ingouF3 and pausing. Noob strats. Anyone that uses F3 is actually a nub
@@UhohitsRenaudV4 and then you are pro now?
@@howardcrosales4523 omg shuuuuuuuuut up. I don't play that garbage game, but if I did, I wouldn't be using the debug menu and pause buffering like a little sally
Good video. The Sonic Adventure 2 community is in a very similar situation right now, actually, with ILs becoming absolutely infested by people abusing pauses (myself included), and the community effectively divided on whether to change our timing method or not. We do have some very light rules on pause buffering unlike many of these other communities though.
It can be a pretty tricky and nuanced situation at times though; I don't know about perfect dark or minecraft, but there are certains strategies in Sonic Adventure 2 that are only possible because of pausing, as it allows us to press A on two subsequent frames, or allows us to hold A without the game registering the action of pressing it. These strategies add some interesting depth, and banning pausing outright would make them go away which would be a shame, but the baggage that comes with allowing pausing makes it a frustrating situation to be in.
I would split the results into (in game clock speedruns) and (real time speedruns), personally I would rather watch someone do a game real-time since is some cases its an amazing show of skill.
I want someone who is about to get the WR time on Minecraft to pause right before they complete the run and just leave it there for a couple of hours so that they get a 2 hour long WR run. I think that will create much discussion about the legitimacy of pausing in Minecraft.
I do think this would create an interesting discussion and escalate a decision regarding this issue but I think anyone on wr pace wouldn't want to risk losing the run due to pausing I could only imagine how devastating that'd be to lose a wr run to a completely avoidable action. I'm fully on board with just counting real time instead of in-game time btw I just think anyone on wr pace wouldn't do this unless they literally didn't care about wr or they thought they could do better.
As most runners live stream that would piss off their viewers....why would SRC even consider the submission when it's that blatant?
I’m glad that you credited yourself for your own footage, that’s an integrity move
In portal speedrunning we use live split set to in game time which helps with load times and you can use a load to skip the beginning dialog to do that you need a timer set to in game time
Simple solution: combine the in-game time with the total realtime of when the game is paused. Given that the ingame timer is used to remove the issues of different loading times, something that the pause screen doesn't invoke anyway. Ideally the ingame timer would still tick on the pause screen, but until such a change is made (and for previous versions, if it does change), just use realtime pause duration instead.
Thanks for the existential dread in the opening.
Memento Mori, Unus Annus.
God I wish I could pause buffer in real life to cut corners perfectly while going to the store
za warudo
You are thinking too small my friend 😄
@@SjorsHoukes I guess it is his speedrun he is practicing for a while. It could be fun youtube video.
Dude I need that time in conversation, talking to people is difficult
@@kaldo_kaldo Exactly! That is where this superpower comes in. Take all the time you need to come up with good lines in conversation.
“Hello, you absolute legends, time”
i think that was a wr
Only 2 years making videos and you're already at almost half a million subscribers 😇 probably because you're an *absolute legend* as a person, content creator and as a speedrunner
Imagine if a chess player could stop their move timer in order to think about their next move.
That's what it's like to stop a speedrunning timer to think about your next move.
That's not a problem though if your opponent can pause his timer too. In a game of chess the timer would become almost meaningless and it would all be about strategy - and people do play chess like this. In Minecraft it would definitely drop the skill ceiling but if people want to compete like this I don't see what the issue is, it should just be split into another category.
let's not forget the definition of speed running, to complete something as quickly as possible. well if you pause your taking longer to complete said thing, simply put, stopping and thinking isn't allowed in this kind of game (speedrunning that is, not minecraft itself)
All the planning and thinking must be done before the run, no if's no but's no coconuts
@@Ohmz27 the issue then is dropping the timer in chesse it is no longer speed chess, just like this is no longer speed running. it shoulkd have its own category
@@Ohmz27 To quote another commenter (Jack Clifton)
"If you keep pausing to plan stuff out and calm your nerves you’re basically making a segmented speedrun at that point."
Should it be in its own category? Sure, but there's also reason to remove them all together, though at this point with there being so many submitted, making it its own category rather than deleting them all would be the better option.
The Speedrunner isn’t stopping the timer, the timer is stopping according to the rules of the game.
Also clocks in chess are the biggest load of BS ever.
If two runner got the "same time" but one paused and the other didn't I would feel the one who didn't pause got cheated.
Imagine it in front of an audience
Someone finishes but gets beaten by the other guy who leaves the stage 10mins later...
*cough cough* zylenox and reignex
@@NANKAIDATTE current WR holder is a pause andy as well
The one who's pausing is going after something else, maybe "most efficient run" or something like that. I agree, it doesn't feel like speedrunning to me. It's something else that still requires brains and a different type of strategy but it isn't speedrunning.
If one runner is just faster bc he got a better pc it wold also suck bc having a faster pc has eden les to do with skill then not posing
I am a big auto racing fan (all types - F1, Indycar, GTs, Prototype, etc) so I treat speed running as just another type of racing, so I agree with the opinion shared here. What makes racing so compelling to me is at the highest level, split second decisions are made under immense pressure and once made the maneuvers take extreme precision and skill to execute. Remove the pressure brought on by having to make decisions quickly and you end up with something akin to golf in my opinion. A lot people like to watch golf because of the precision required, so I feel like the differences between IGT and real-time (or at least restricted pausing) is conceptually similar.
It's really like the difference of deciding who wins a race based on either who can run the fastest vs who can finish the race covering the least distance possible.
When you are running in a race, you don't get to pause to catch your beeath
One of the things we could do is force people to "open to lan" at the start of the run. If no one else is on the server it will not count the time during which the nether is being generated on the in game timer, but it will count time paused
You realize what open to lan is used for, right? It enables cheats. Requiring it would cause such a big headache to moderators that it practically speaking cannot be considered.
@@omnitroph1501 it only enables cheats if you press the “enable cheats” button which should be pretty easy to verify. Requiring open to lan isn’t a bad idea, but would it still pause the timer when loading back into the overworld?
@@heyitsanotherben If it's open to lan, other people can come into your world and help you or something. I'd say just use wall clock time and manually subtract loading screens.
@@Thete okaaaaay but the game sends a message to chat if someone joins....
I guess you could mod the game to hide the join message, but how could they even help you if they too are locked in survival without cheats and without being easily detected by a moderator.
@@omnitroph1501 It would be a lot more effort than it's worth to try to cheat with LAN. You wouldn't really be able to do anything that's not immediately visible, or can't be done better/faster/stealthier with a mod of some sort. The "Open to LAN" feature isn't meant for allowing cheats anyway, that's just a setting you can enable that people would *see* you enable at the beginning of the run if you did.
Open to LAN simply allows others on your internet connection to join the world. This wouldn't be beneficial for cheaters, either, for similar reasons as stated above.
The moment you said "If you pause the timer, are you really speed running" Was the exact moment I 100% fell on your side, good point.
r u serious?!? y u not believe him immediately?
@@Boypogikami132 why should I believe someone immediately
And the exact moment I dounled down against it lmfao like I decided to be patient with it and watch the whole thing but like every thirty seconds it's like no dude that's incorrect, and pausing is fine
@@Boypogikami132 Because it's fucking stupid and incorrect?
Damn the autists who think minecraft speed running is the greatest thing ever are going to come after you.. They need that paused timer to think you know how long it takes them?
I think there's a difference between pausing to plan a frame perfect move and pausing to read info on your location and stuff
theres a low buzzing sound in the music somewhere around the 5min mark that sounds exactly like a phone vibrating underneath something and it drove me insane till i figured out it wasnt my phone
Imagine running the 100m hurdles, but you got to pause the entire race in order to prep for each jump.
That would be interesting to see
Sounds like a tool assisted speedruns
@@Biggus_Mickus it does, but the goal of football isn't to end the game as fast as possible like hurdling... many games/sports can encompass breaks between plays/moves (chess immediately comes to mind), but if the GOAL of the game is specifically to do something as fast as possible then pausing completely ruins the point of going fast. being able to analyze, focus, and prepare your next move IS a skill, but too many people conflate speedrunning with "being the most skilled" with no other constraints. speedrunning is specifically meant to be constrained by time pressure. there is a difference between figuring out the best move possible after an unlimited amount of time, and making the better (not even necessarily the absolute best) decision than someone else in almost no time at all. that quick thinking is, in my opinion, the true skill in speedrunning. speedrunning communities should create rules that promote fast real-time thinking/acting by banning unnecessary pausing.
*Jumps the third hurdle*
"Guys, hold on a second..."
NCAA Basketball. Last few minutes of the games are unwatchable
I think the Hades community did well in making it 2 separate categories of IGT and RTA
Legend once said:
*"Pausing is a feature"*
/gamemode creative /locate stonghold /kill @e are also features
/give is also a feature
The opening made it sound like speedrunners are trying to make time machine or something