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Imagine you practice for a marathon for years and years. You dedicate your life to it and then someone comes up and is like: "Yea, you can also use cars now"
What kind of analogy is this? All the external tools do is give the location of the Stronghold. It's like running a marathon except you have the GPS on your phone so you know how to get to the finish line.
I’m a musician, and in the world of music when a new tool comes out that makes the process of creating music more accessible it’s always a positive thing. When I started this video that was what I was thinking about and how that mindset could be true with speed running as well. More people being able to run the game without having to know all the strategies and math involved. However it only took me a few minutes to realize that speed running is different. Speed running isn’t art it’s a sport, you should have to learn the strategies and techniques to make it to the top. Speed running has a clear finish line, being the fastest in the world and to be the fastest you should have to play without the aid of any device that simplifies the process. It is hard but that’s the point of it.
The spirit is important, but if all you want is hard they could be saying "no F3 either". What's also important is that most of the community agrees on and plays within the rules.
@@Alpacachino_ Going back to music - just because people are trained on classical means they shouldn't use outside resources like jazz chords and microtonal scales? It's a matter of taste. If you don't like that make something different (a new leaderboard, an appeal to the minecraft mods, etc.)
I'm with this- I don't want to punish runners who have worked hard to develop this skill, but nor do I blame runners who want to eliminate a math intensive, slower paced part of the run, particularly since people are finding ways around it anyway and it's very hard to prove the not-use of many of the things implemented. We could go back to no F3, but that slows things down SO MUCH, and speedrunners would lose their minds
@@mjp121 Already exists. Doesn't get runs and doesn't get attention because the game is extremely random without it. You guys have to deal with reality man this is insane...
@@shorthanyfantano6944 'the guy who hates their decision' if you have to make bad faith arguments maybe your position isn't very good? Clearly a LOT of people have issue with this decision. Saying people shouldn't criticize it because qualified people had a hand in making it is equally insane. Was that supposed to be a dunk...?
@@Luminethereploid okay give it to me straight, is this a reference to Dream using altered drop chances, which to an extent would be a tool assisted speedrun (if not just straight up cheating, even in a TAS catagory)?
That's my thought. Sure, do the runs with tools if it's more fun for you. But I don't think they should be in the same leaderboards as those doing without. That's not fair to the people who do the calculations themselves.
When I finished the video that was my thoughts lead me to. I don’t speedrun, but play Minecraft. If you ask me it is like allowing steroids in the Olympics.
Separate categories for abacus and slide rule, is pencil and paper permitted (and the controversial issue of pre-sharpening pencils before the timer starts), counting on fingers only for the purists...
I think this would be fine too as they would lose time to the point where it's not worth it for higher level play. It makes it easier to get into, but without changing the ultimate goal.
This is a lot like the "broomgate" controversy in the sport of curling. I wonder if it will take the same path. In 2009, a scientific paper finally proved what many players suspected: that the direction a player swept the ice could greatly affect the path of the rock depending on the type of broom head the players used. For about 5 years, there was a curling broom arms race, with some teams looking for any edge they could get. There were a group of high level players that outright refused to use the most effective broom heads, because they didn't like the fact that the new heads were so effective that once mediocre teams could make great shots if they had great sweepers. There was a debate on what skills should be rewarded in high-level curling. Since the game's inception, shotmaking had been the most important skill, but in the span of a couple years, upper body strength and endurance became the most important trait a team could have. Eventually, seeing the degradation of the sport into a contest of brawn over finesse and brains, the World Curling Federation banned many broom heads outright and set even stricter rules for major competitions to reduce the effect of sweeping to pre broomgate days.
That's an interesting take but there is an important distinction to make between an olympic sport and minecraft speedrunning, which is much less popular or well known. All the mods are volunteers. They don't get paid like curling officials do, and they have so much work to do as it is with so many more people submitting speedruns that need to be watched and accepted. They simply don't have the ability to fully regulate speedrunning especially when it comes to programs or calculators that are extremely hard to detect.
@@rainbow-kc8pw I don't think they have the ability to regulate this kind of thing regardless of how much time and effort they spend. The problem is that everything is predictable in Minecraft due to how it's made, and there's a ton of ways they can cheat the information off screen. If chat can feed a streamer info, so can a buddy in the same room, or a private message from someone watching the stream, or some other near.undetectable way. And what happens if they crack down on chat feeding information? Sounds good on paper, until you realize chat can grief runs by just giving information to the streamer whether they want it or not.
@@harbingerofwarx995 speedrunning (especially Minecraft speedrunning) is based on the honor system in the first place. It’s really easy to splice a run (I haven’t I swear) but people don’t do it because they have integrity so calculators would also be based off the honor system and it would still be fine. One of the cons listed in the google form vote for keeping calculators banned was it was based off the honor system which isn’t optimal. However if you have the guiltless mindset to use a banned frowned-upon resource and still (without guilt) submit it and receive validation for the run then you have the guiltless mindset to splice a run. The same system works. This still doesn’t account for chat spam so whatever also how would you be able to casually do the setup in a real run with it going under the radar ok bye
I'm okay with it, but it needs to have its own category, separate from the category where people don't use it. In this way, everyone can do what they want, and we can watch the ones *we* want.
Yea!!! Options are always better. I honestly think that's what will end up happening. It sux that it's got to be the meta now for all the runs. We already have any % runs and TAS runs and that's where this belongs IMO
I kinda agree but it's not a perfect solution either as it divides the community between the calculator runners and the other runners. The separation isn't as big as the player vs TAS one but it's one to think about
If they're going to allow calculators, they need a new category then: Human TAS Any% for 1.9 or earlier, 1.10 - 1.16, and 1.17 or later. Just like so many speed runs have Glitched and Glitchless categories, or OOB and In Bounds, Minecraft could have a Human TAS tab. The rule is that the player must be physically active within the speed run, with no external program manipulating any movements, but are allowed to use third party tools to aid in calculations, without altering in-game calculations and game rules, to avoid the Dream Run controversy. If a player is demonstrated to have used a calculation tool or a spreadsheet even once during a run, then they do not qualify for a standard any% category. Since glitches are generally not supported in Minecraft speedruns as they can look very similar to modded speedruns, and do not always work across versions or platforms or even devices (thus an unfair advantage in speedrunning), a Human TAS category could allow extreme players to test the limits, like a glitch or OOB abuse run, without harming the efforts of standard runners on their leaderboards. This would eliminate the need to even ask the questions, because the label will clearly show, this runner is just trying to run the game as fast as possible by any means necessary, rather than only using skills and instinct and functioning within the boundary of the game.
"If a player is demonstrated to have used a calculation tool or a spreadsheet even once during a run, then they do not qualify for a standard any% category" No one tell them that most anti-calculator runners support using spreadsheets mid run and that if you're streaming there's nothing to stop your chat from calculating for you, there's also nothing to verify that you memorised the contents of a spreadsheet rather than just looking it up, how would verifiers know otherwise? People should watch one of these "TAS" runs and judge for themselves instead of going by Karl's warped description of them and how little skill they have. Look at Crookste's 10:56 from a few days ago. The very vast majority of thinking on the spot is still done. Karl should also mention that perfect travel doesn't take 0 skill, some runners who did manual calculation (with aid of spreadsheet/table) didn't want to learn it because they weren't able to do it. Also check out 7rowl's 10:59 uploaded an hour ago. RSG runners are more talented than ever, it's a stupid time to try to diminish what they're doing, not a single person is "using a calculator because they suck and want to go faster without trying", this might apply to someone who doesn't have a sub 20 time if anyone
"this might apply to someone who doesn't have a sub 20 time if anyone" Yet that's the point isn't it? A ton of worse runners with slow blinds getting top times because external programs basically wipe out the time it takes to triangulate the stronghold. You can actually relate to that one since you literally blinded into the stronghold in your run, making you, someone with a previous 17 or 18 minute pb into the first sub 10. You're being pretty disingenuous when you tell someone to look at top runners' recent PBs, since they've displayed skill with and without external programs. The issue is with other runners, slower runners, who can now compete with these top times, not because of more skill, but because of way better endgames.
@@brentilda The point he is trying to make isn't that it removes all skill from the equation but gives a strong disadvantage to players that wish to play without spread sheets or calculators just how a speedruners with glitches can involve just as much skill if not more then glitchless speedruns but both are categories are commonly run and enjoyed. separating the runs into 2 categories would allow both types of speedruners to run the game in the way they find most enjoyable with out having their speedruns discounted
@@Otto_Von_Beansmarck How will we determine that someone isn't looking at a spreadsheet on another monitor or being told the values by someone? Manual triangulation for the last 8+ months has just been a game of memorising distances for x angle change, often with a tables/spreadsheet open even if just to double check that your memory is right. You could just claim that you remembered. Also, considering that most people voted to allow calculators, I think even more of them would vote to allow spreadsheets/tables. A split is ambiguous and a ton of work, will we get splits for purist, no-calc no-aid, no-calc aid, restricted calc (what we have), unlimited calc? How can you police that people are following criteria like no-calc no-spreadsheet? There is simply no feasible way.
@@PigeonFlare "They've displayed skill without external programs" Why do you think I mentioned them? They use calculators. The Couriway ad hominen "argument" of "you hit the blind" is pure nonsense because like I've said I am advocating for less RNG in end games. If I want to capitalise on the edge I've gotten from getting lucky, why would I advocate for that?And no, it won't make people without sub 20 times get top times any more than hitting the blind does. It's not so much that calc saves time, it's that it's reliable. The outcome we're interested in is hitting the stronghold, with (manual) calculated travel only do so much to maximise your chances and hitting the stronghold is partially luck, and the way in which it's done is indistinguishable from calculator or external aid.
When people started using spreadsheets, how was the question "should we unban calculators?" and not "should we ban spreadsheets?" Also it seems pretty easy to police if you ban both. Disqualify any run that copies the debug log to the clipboard. The game shows when it happens...
@@DNL-gr3kc Disqualify anyone that uses any 3rd party program to get an unfair advantage in any competition, period....We have a word for those type of things, 'trainers' 'hacks'...Cheats. And they're not allowed for competition or multiplayer games in general. I love a good cheat in a single player game where I'm just dicking around with spawnign 100 dragons in skyrim for the laughs. But its entirely different when its a competition or a multiplyer game that effects others. So the simple solution to keep things fair, and to not legitimize cheating in competition, is just disallow any 3rd party programs, and if you get caught.....Get dat ass banned.
If someone wanted to cheat with minecraft, they could always have an external application watch/actively read the log on a separate monitor and show the location of a stronghold once it has enough information *shrugs*. It's a difficult rule to enforce, not sure they should have given up on enforcing it though.
@@karatebaby6871 Calculators per definition is TAS, even if it's not say a bot that speedruns for you. TAS stands for Tool Assisted Speedrun, and a calculator is a tool
@@karatebaby6871 Weel, basically a TAS is a "Tool assisted speedrun" a calculator is a Tool not given by the game so it should (Imo) stand in a TAS category. The decision was to first ban it. The rule said : no calculators allowed but the spirit was : do not use anything else to help calculate the stronghold coordinates. People respected the rule but not its spirit so, after a vote, the calculators got unbanned. But the thing is, even if people voted to unban it, it's not like the spirit is still the same. Like he said in the video, what makes a speedrun great is the performance of a human being, not the greatness of the tool they used. It's like a sport and so using tools to help winning doesn't make it a greater performance.
I do agree with this but there needs to be something done about speedrunners asking their chat to do anything for them when speed running. It puts bigger streamers at a massive advantage.
A 5 minute stream delay should be mandatory for speedruns. Not sure though if this could be validated after a new WR? Comparing system time with stream time could probably just be rigged by setting your systems time 5 minute off i guess?
@@chiefbologna5719 If you implement a rule against chat helping bad faith actors can do the input and kill a run when the streamer doesn't even want help though, no?
@@emojack "15 MINUTE DELAY AND THEN WHAT? THEN WHAT? I TALK TO MYSELF, LIKE SOME CRAZY COMPLETE IDIOT? HEY GUYS THANKS FOR THE SUB MAN OH OH YO OH WAIT, OH YOU'RE, YOU'RE TWELVE? OH O YOU HAVE A BEARD NOW? THAT'S FANTASTIC DUD, DUD THE, THE VIEWERS WILL GROW UP, HAVE CHILDREN, GO TO COLLEGE, GRADUATE, GET MARRIED, GET SIX KIDS, DIE, COME BACK TO LIFE, GET REZZED, THEN I'LL STILL FU SHAAA DU-DU" - Felix Lengyel
@@simonvietjohansson8069 can easily avoid that by adding a delay on stream or they can even have his chat set to emote only for just that run. There's many, many ways around what youre talking about
They want to use a Ti84 in the middle of a potential world record speedrun? The use of tools that require manual input is fine by me because that's time loss for them. It's the fact that the inputs are not manual that makes this bad.
But s piece of paper and a pen are also tools. They are using tools. What if you are just better at math? That is not a game skill. What if you just have a better education? Then you make sure only wealthy people can compete. This makes no sense.
I feel like this is an easy fix, break the runs into 2 different categories. The first is no pause, no f3, no tools. With the second being called tool assisted, and let people use all that stuff.
@@kskcp7243 It's only a matter of time before someone figures out how to reverse-engineer a seed from arbitrary data like initial terrain layout and so forth. Once you open the door to external programs like the ones that can predict Stronghold locations from digging up random treasure chests, you will eventually get to the point where a couple of images of terrain can determine pretty much every element of a seed: locations of iron/obsidian/other goodies, location of bastions, etc. It's not a slippery slope argument; it's inevitability.
@@GeneralBolas There are progammes to calculate the seed form the world e.g. mossy cobblestone in dungeons or fossils in the nether or caves or ravins...
There should be two separate categories. One for no F3 + no calculators and one with F3 + calculators. F3 already gives such a huge advantage with techniques such as E-raying to find bastions, quadrant checking, the dragon fight, and stronghold location it's wild that there isn't a separate category for F3 runs even before the recent unbanning of calculators.
F3 is a MASSIVE tool- more significantly game breaking than any of the calculators, it's just accepted because people put a lot of time into learning how to abuse it in increasingly creative ways, and it's "part of the game." You know what else is part of the game? Creative mode. And yet if you swapped into that, people would call hacks. Using F3 is also what made pausing problematic. There are PLENTY of skill elements left to separate the best runners without needing to rely on being able to best abuse f3 to find strongholds- runners can either play no f3, or play the fastest, least rng version of random seed available
One problem with the "anti-F3" argument is that it ignores the fact that F3 is literally programmed into the game. In my opinion, F3 should be considered "normal", while no-F3 should be a specialty "extra hard" category.
the game already has 84 categories, just the random seed single player is separated in before version 1.9 the versions 1.9-1.15 and version 1.16+ also a separation between any% and glitchless any% oh, and there is also peaceful mode which has all the same, but no separation between 1.9-1.15 and 1.16+
Hello Couriway :) big fan of your work Imo they should just make a new category for tool assisted run if people really want to use calculators, as putting them in the same category as runs with no tools is just unfair
By this video’s logic, any speedrun with a timer is also a TAS. After all, a timer is an external tool which gives helpful additional information to the player that is not available in the default game and significantly assists with the speedrunning process. I don’t see his point at all.
@@thesaroscycle_archive Now that I think about it, that makes a lot of sense. Timers give you valuable information about what pace you're on, and allows you to make decisions based off of that pace.
Part of the problem is 'tool assisted' has adopted such a different definition over the years. TAS Minecraft already exists and is far different from simply using a triangulation calculator.
That's really dishonest. You get paid to promote something, if you don't like it and are convinced it's a good product, then don't take the money and show your whole community something you don't yourself believe in.
@@DieEineMiezeI don’t think TH-camrs have any obligation to their viewers to only sponsor products that they genuinely support. Think about TV ads. Do you think that every TV channel supports all of the ads that they show? Are they passionate about all the products that they are promoting? Of course not, it’s just their way of making money. They don’t care. Neither should TH-camrs. If a TH-camr is sponsored by some game they don’t really care about like raid, it’s not dishonest for them to promote the game anyway. It’s not lying. It’s just advertising. It is not lying or tricking anyone or being dishonest at all.
For anyone interested in how the 17.5 block method works, it uses the small angle approximation of sin(theta) = theta where theta is the angle in radians. By throwing your first eye then moving perpendicular to the throw 17.5 blocks, you draw a right triangle between the two points of your throw and the location of the stronghold. The side closest to you is 17.5 blocks long, and the difference between the two recorded angles is the furthest angle from you. From this you can use the definition sin(theta) = opposite/hypotenuse to get the length of the hypotenuse. If you try a few numbers in your calculator (with angles in radians) then you will quickly see that for small angles (~15 degrees or less) then sin(theta) is pretty close to theta, enough for a rough approximation. Why does dividing by 1000 as stated in the video work? The angle in-game is represented as a bearing in degrees. To convert to radians we need to divide that by pi/180. Rewriting the above equation to hypotenuse = opposite/theta, we can plug in the known numbers (opposite = 17.5, theta = measured angle/(pi/180)) to get: hypotenuse = (17.5*180/pi)/(measured angle in degrees). Conveniently (or rather, why the length of 17.5 was chosen in the first place!), 17.5*180/pi is roughly 1000, so 1000/(measured angle in degrees) is a very good first approximation of the distance of the stronghold! If the angle between the two eye tosses gets to big this approximation breaks down, but by imagining the triangle formed by the eyes and the stronghold you can intuit that the stronghold must be quite close by, so this method works even if the maths start to break down.
Additional leaderboards fragment the player base. If new boards were created each time there was a disagreement there would be literally hundreds of categories to track.
There isn't an official one, but I've seen an uprise in people playing hypervanilla (no f3 gamma 1) and it's genuinely fun to watch unlike the pause abuse or TAs runs
@@CHloE748 it’s not tool assisted in the typical sense of the term. And if we are using a broader definition that includes any tools then timers are also a form of tool that informs a run. There are loads of external tools runner use across several runs and those are generally accepted as non TAS. Calculators save the runner doing some on the fly maths but most top runners would have chat do the maths anyway. The previous WR used a table to work out the ideal divine coordinates. This levels the playing field between runners with a large and small chat and doesn’t change the structure of the runs. I’m still not a fan of it personally, but I don’t see why it’s a massive issue here and not with other games. And I don’t like the approach of just making new categories every time a new rule is debated. It is always suggested and almost always a bad idea.
I would love to see Random Seed, Glitchless, Real Time, No F3, No external help (tools or chat or motivational texts from mom) speedruns be a thing. maybe we can allow motivational texts from mom
@@aquathird5918 The current timing method is adequate as it is. They do real time - loads - settings changes. I believe all other pauses are timed. Also, they only retime top runs, not every run, as it would take too long to do.
The simplest solution is to have a category for each. Dont use anything, "PURE" speedrun, and another that is essentially a TAS. If you want a middle ground of a specific tool just for a particular reason, thats fine as well. But dont mix the categories, as a leaderboard makes only sense if the people work under the same rule set, otherwise you compare apples to space ships.
"Don't mix the Categories" Ala Diablo 3's ridiculous Randomly Generated Greater Rifting "Leaderboards". It's utterly and completely pointless because no two Greater Rifts have ever or will ever be identical, the point is to hunt and fish for specifically narrow possibilities for a "Faster" clear, while skill IS a factor, the fact of the matter is, every map is 100% procedurally generated and so no two races are the same. Drives me crazy.
You missed the issue of why they went with this decision - How will you prove that someone is using calculator when submiting "pure" speedrun? As long as he enters data manualy into it (for example on second computer with one hand while still moving in game with the other one) you would have no way to prove one way or the other. The more extreme one pearl tactics notwithstanding, how will you differentiate between player who can do good triangulation with two pearls vs one who used calculator? In both cases their gameplay would look same. Unlike with cheaters with xray or who used non-random seed, where you can see them acting on knowledge they should not have, with this you would have no way to call one or the other cheater.
I fail to understand how people overlook the problem with this argument. You clutter the leaderboards heavily when you make a category for each, when people get wrs on the different categories, the magic is lost and people just start arguing about whether to count it as the wr.
I'm not a speed runner, so I come to this very much with an outsider's viewpoint, but the introduction of console tools seems to be far more "tool assisted" than allowing someone to automate a bit of 2d trigonometry. Loads of people can do basic trigonometry and write computer programs but feeling your way to a location using only the thrown eyes looked far more like a computer game playing skill.
If I understand that correctly, this is not something that just does some 2D trig. This is (basically) a hot-key activated program that does the whole triangulation process for you. This is way more than pulling up the F3 console and crunching some numbers with a calculator on your desk.
I agree with this. If the F3 screen was a mod rather than a gameplay feature the moderation team would ban it immediately. No one would even question why it was banned, those that did would just be laughed at.
Console commands aren’t available when cheats aren’t on. The things in the video should be allowed - cheating is 1. Not following rules of the category, 2. Modification of the game, 3. Modification of inputs. This doesn’t fall under any of them. By that logic you could say reading twitch chat is getting external help and all runners should play in a sensory deprivation chamber
exactly, either allow F3 or not at all. A pro could screen scrape co-ordinates or type them into a calculator on another computer on another monitor. Plus, if you banned spreadsheets I'm sure people would have went to lengths like printing out precalculated lookup tables no much different than the trigonometric lookup tables in the back of grade 10 textbooks before calculators.
I love watching a good TAS just to see the craziness that is technically possible but beyond a human ability to pull off (at least reliably), but I also like to see the actual speedruns and how crazy good people get. I agree that this is just making every run a TAS, which ruins the point of a leaderboard.
This reminds me of something we've been talking about in the Metroid Dread community. There can be a lot of mashing to fire at a boss quickly, and there are people who want to allow turbo controllers. I'm probably a mid-speed masher, and I know that I lose a lot of time when I have to mash a lot, but I'm still adamantly against turbo controllers for it. Just like here, it's a skill that should be worked on, not fixed by a machine.
@@hariman7727 There's been talk about that, and making a separate category, but there's such a stigma attached to turbo that they're afraid having a new category will scare people off. There are merits to both discussions, and the big talk is a capped turbo. Not so fast that it's an instant kill, but and slow enough that most people can mash at least as fast as the turbo.
I came here to say the same thing. While I agree that turbo shouldn't be used, at least with Dread there's the concern that high speed mashing could physically damage you (e.g. carpal tunnel).
@@SpaveFrostKing some people also just don't have the coordination to mash it's super fast speeds, which is why I honestly think a turbo allowed and a separate capped turbo category would be the best.
I feel like this doesn't belong in speedrunning as I believe everything acheived in a speedrun should be kept in the game. ACE in majora's mask or OoT is acceptable because they are achieved by in-game methods, if they were instead achieved by just rigging the n64 to your computer then it would be different, this is no different.
@@xBeesafree the major difference is that majora and OoT all have planned routes since the game is the same every time, so calculator usage outside the run to plot a route is perfectly acceptable to me. however, in Minecraft, calculator usage during the run of a game where one of its main aspects is its randomness ruins the whole point of a Minecraft speedrun, if I were to say this in terms of any other speedrun it would be like getting halfway through the run, and hooking the console up to a TAS script for the other half.
@@xBeesafreeHowever for the case of SRM all of the calculation is done before the speedrun takes place. Many speedruns have point totals or very specific numbers that were calculated with outside tools before the run takes place. SRM angles and setups don't depend on rng that changes each run, and are all known before hand, meaning that while the run takes place, its just the runners knowledge and muscle memory. However, something that I would equate to a similar level is the rng prediction tool for sploosh kaboom in wind waker.
@@FracturedStaffOfArmadyl but in the case of the spreadsheet, all the values ARE calculated before the run, granted you dont need to rreference the notes for SRM during the run. I 100% believe notes should be allowed. I do not support any type of external program that reads game data or plugin within minecraft. But notes should be allowed.
I think the use of external tools is fine, providing that the speedrunner has to manually input the data. Wind Waker his a minigame called Sploosh Kaboom that involves a ton of RNG, and an external solver tool is allowed because the speedrunner must manually input data into the program to make it work. I think the most problematic part of this Minecraft tool is that you can just copy the F3 screen to the clipboard and have the program read it automatically. I don't think that part should be allowed.
I think this really shows the issues I've had with Minecraft speedruns. I understand that things like movement patterns and other forms of RNG will always have an effect, but the entire run of Minecraft is based on RNG, where you spawn, Piglin trades, where the stronghold is, etc. It seems like the speedrunners are interested in overcoming the challenge of playing a different world every game, but then they methods which try to streamline and minimise the challenge that logically follows from playing such a format. If you don't want to deal with the difficulties of random worlds, you can already run set seed.
I think tools become a problem when they're made for things that can be improved on by skill. You cant practice RNG like the wind waker battleship minigame. But you can practice finding strongholds without a calculator.
@@AniviaS But is is a perfect example that they should not be used. People just don't want to invest so much time learning the ins and outs of that game. That is just a cop out. No one would use that logic with minecraft seeds, but because the minigame is a small part of the game no one wants to invest time to learn it.
This tbh. Really good analogy. I mean, the battleship minigame is pure luck, you can't practice it. But stronghold finding? The way i see it, if you reach the point where you don't even need an eye of ender to find the stronghold anymore, then what's the point of searching for them in the first place? IMO, that's just a seed viewer with extra steps. Might as well allow those now that calculators are allowed. While we're at it, by that logic, you can probably use calculators to locate blaze spawners too. With this in mind, we might as well allow seed viewers for that purpose. At that point, the only real difference to set seed speedruns is that you don't know the seed right away.
@@hoodedman6579It is not just down to luck. There are optimal strategies to picking the right square in each situation. Also in that game there is literally a different cathegory to using the tool. That is the best option in my opinion.
I’ve always disagreed with allowing pauses. Make all MC speedruns RTA for starters, this would limit (or at least minimize) the effect of external resources.
The problem with pure RTA is then load times become a factor, meaning you need a really good computer to viably compete as well as introducing an element of psudorandomness. You need some way of cutting out loading screens.
Agreed. Brentilda had so much pause time to use a tool to help do divine travel. To me, this is basically cheating and while I do believe Brentilda is an excellent player, I have no respect for the methods or that run. Minecraft speedrunning has lost so much integrity in my mind. To people whining about load times as an excuse, many other games cut out load times without allowing pauses, it’s pretty easy to distinguish, try harder.
@@uwu_senpai okay but like longer load times isnt random its based on hardware and making having better hardware a factor for better times makes it pay to win at least in part
@@dylanc2806 They went all out in a huge paper about a popular streamer cheating, but chickened out at something as easy as forcing you to show your windows and monitors.
I feel like with the introduction of external tools like these should be broken into a new category as they do seem to take the spirit away from aspects of the run but are very interesting in their own way. So to keep both communities happy that could be an easy fix
As regards the calculator rule, I always thought it was a bit silly. After all, during a math heavy task, why shouldn't I pull out my trusty TI-84? However, seeing what is actually meant by "calculator" in this context, I agree wholeheartedly that they have no place in a legitimate competition.
Yeah. It's ok to use a calculator in a test, or any other tool to help you, but it would make no sense to make a math competition and then allow calculators to be used, because then the best mathematician will be the fastest typer, and anyone could do that.
@@morwitzz And even if you allow calculators, you put a limit on the computing power in that case (like only a TI-84 or less powerful for example) and don't allow running a super-computer powered solver...
Yea, I was initially thinking it was going to be inputting the numbers into a graphing calculator, and the problem being something like not being able to prove they didn't set things up in advance (like how you have to clear your calc before a test), but no, this is just straight up a conversion calculator.
If you are a dedicated speedrunner, you can learn to do anything a simple calculator can give you in your head with sufficient precision, and this remove ambiguity of being tool-assisted or not. There are a lot of situations where banning calculators is silly, but for speedrunning competition, it makes sense.
I was also thinking wouldn't be way slower to sit in place smashing a bunch of numbers in your calculator instead of just doing them in your head? Could be good for new runners to get used to the other mechanics but useless for the pros. But with that sort of calculation? out may as well just have a program reading RAM and telling you exactly what RNG you have.
As a programmer who's interested in speedrunning: I agree. The clipboard usage is clearly a way of communicating between the game and the external tool without "direct" communication. Realistically, that's no different from an autoclicker - or even a TAS, just pulling data instead of pushing it. If external tools are allowed, players should have to manually enter data in. This at least adds a penalty which skilled players might be able to avoid.
I agree... but i would go one step further. You have to open the calculator on the same screen and the game and the calculator cant be on screen at the same time.
The goal of speedrunning Minecraft over other games is to test and watch someone's quick-planning, routing and task optimization. With the addition of a calculator to maximize the first two, a piece of what makes watching and running enjoyable is lessened. It's nice to see when a world record is being lowered by the community, but a run being fun comes first.
Quick-planning, routing, and task optimization, all things almost every other game has. I get your point, but please use valid reasoning for it. Edit: Alright, a lot of people have misunderstood me, and lot of people have come up with decent counter arguments. I was a bit naive in the fact that most games have "planning ahead of time" rather than "quick-planning" which is true. I was certainly not saying, however, using a calculator is good for speedrunning, I am heavily against what the speedrun mods are doing about that. Can none of you really see an objective fact without assuming the writer is on the opposite side? I wasn't arguing for calculators, I was simply stating a fact, misguided, perhaps, but a fact. That's all.
to be the devil's advocate for a moment, the watching of a speed run being fun is tertiary to the point. Watching say glitched doom 2016 runs, where they hop through levels at breakneck speed is fairly boring, (infact watching anything that isn't 100 percent glitchless imo in doom 2016 is pretty boring. This is why Byteme is one of my favorite speedrunners) But it's still valid to the point of speedrunning, finishing the game faster than someone else. Some people are incredible at math, and others struggle with basic algerbra. I feel like this eases that discrepancy in which repetition doesn't overcome a learning disability. However, even trying to play the devil's advocate here, I can't come up with a single reason that the category shouldn't be split in to TAS and Tool-less.
@@ninenezumi well that just makes their point stand more doesnt it? If almost every game has those elements, it implies theyre an important part of speedrunning in general, so removing them ny using a calculatir just isnt a good idea really
@@ninenezumi "other games" Then get a WR in those games. If you need a 3rd party software to beat a game then you suck at the game and don't deserve a world record. Period.
@@ninenezumi These things are extraordinarily more previlant in MC. It's a sandbox game that's procedurally generated. You have to think "what am I going to do next" there are MANY MANY things that can randomly force you to take a different path. You have to route the run *as you're doing it* there is no second run on that seed. Only equally important thing to other games is task optimization. Depending on what items you have, you may need to adjust the task to optimize. MC speedrunning is a speedrun about coming up with a plan and rewriting the plan in a moments notice.
Just to mention, there is at least one example where an external tool actually made a run better, which is windwaker 100% where now days a tool is used to predict the patterns for the minigame "sploosh kaboom" (a version of battleship). But there is one difference. In windwaker the thing that was removed was a pure luck element, because runners could only blind guess and it was just rng if the run died or not. Also you need to input everything manually. But the same principal doesn't apply here because 1. The thing that is removed from the run isn't rng but skill and 2. It isn't even done manually, which from my standpoint would compare if you (an console) don't modify the game but the console (turbo buttons, etc.) And I hope I don't need to tell you why those aren't legal anymore.
Rng is being “removed”, but the fact is that Minecraft is all about playing around the rng and making calculated decisions. The calculator removes the “calculated” part
Another is in RE3, where there's a mod that makes the magnum a granade launcher, which basically eliminated the possibility that 50% of runs will die because the runner gets the mangum as opposed to the launche. This has been accepted by the community since all it does is replace the item with another, nothing more.
Totally agree about the Windwaker 100%. Also to note here about that. The RNG in Wind Waker ticks from the time the game is turned on. In Dragon Roost Dungeon (which happens before the Sploosh Kaboom game) the RNG ticks crazy fast because of all the particle physics calls happening. The tool only works if you have a decent estimate of your RNG value range when you hit Sploosh Kaboom, otherwise it is pretty useless. So even then, the Wind Waker tool only really works if the runner consistently executes all of the run (especially Dragon Roost) up till that point In the game. Makes a huge difference when no information is exported from the game to the tool and players have to manually enter.
@CLOV3R713 y'know, isn't there already a category for specific seeds? If you take the guesswork out of the game, then there's not really a difference between the two
@ExtraDash TAS means tool assisted speedrun, it seems you are the one who don't know what it means, these calculators are (tools) that are (assisting) players in their (speedruns), i don't get why people would be okay with any kind of tools used to speedrun a game, what is the point anymore.
I experimented with triangulation using these methods, and I have a few runs worth of statistics that can give you an idea of how precise these methods can be. I'll have to dig it up. IMO, there should be a "pure" category that does now allow external tools, or the F3 stuff, or whatever. Separate would allow assistance of any kind, in-game or otherwise.
I don't really think F3 should be allowed, or at the very least there should be a no-F3 category (Hell, maybe there is - I don't ACTUALLY care, it's just something I think when I see these vids) It kinda goes against the spirit of a run (in my opinion, ofc) to have all your statistics available in a way that would be invisible during 'normal' gameplay.
@@Ashfold_Eberesche the thing is f3 isent some external program,it's a perfectly vanilla game feature.i can see why its allowed,no real reason for it to be banned(you thinking it's lame doesent count as a proper reason).
@@zacharyadams3422 Oh, I know. Like I said, I don't REALLY care about it - I'm not in the MC community, and only ever think about it when these videos pop up. It's purely my subjective opinion that it's kinda against the spirit of the game. I can definitely see why it's allowed too, and maybe if I had a 'horse in the race' so to speak, my opinion might be different. I've heard people say that F3 actually allows for the skill ceiling to be higher, and that's a fairly good argument (although external tools invalidate this, but obviously that's a separate issue) I didn't really say it SHOULD be banned or anything. I mean, I guess you could read my post that way but it wasn't really the intention. I just have a preference, that's all.
i feel like the decision was made based on the context, like “if it’s legal to use spreadsheets should it be legal to use calculators” instead of “should tools be allowed during speed runs” but also i just watch these videos for fun so i’m not super knowledgeable on what’s happening
That was my impression aswell. Afterall you cant check if someone used a spreadsheet so I was guessing they allowed calculators in an effort to balance out the playing field.
they probably didn't just ban it cause they for the simple fact of clearly people can just find loopholes around this technicality right? So wha'ts the point of trying to fight something if it's fundamentally impossible to ban or even police. What runners just made a bot that they could just watch my stream and it'll tell me where it is? Technically i'm not using a calculator or spreadsheets. Plus how do you know if people aren't using the calculator or spreadsheet? The problem is this is stuff that's just hard to police cause without basically patting down the runner and like having them show everything on their desktop (which is illegal in some countries cause that's invasion of privacy) there's no real way to know or say they aren't using one
Why not split the leaderboard like theyve done a thousand times? A no F3 leaderboard, an F3 allowed leaderboard, and an F3 plus calculators leaderboard.
"Call it what it is, a tool assisted speed run". I love this idea!! We see this concept used WIDELY in the entire Speed Running community, i don't see what Minecraft should be any different when external tools are clearly being used.
@ExtraDash I think TAS by its most raw definition is a speedrun that uses any sort of tool to assist the runner, so these can be counted as TAS just like a vehicle can be a car or a plane. There are some TASs where doing precise save states and frame inputs are too difficult (look at L4D2 TASs for example). Not to mention, I feel like the distinction, although useful, might imply that ETSs are a more valid form of TAS. A TAS is a TAS, you can't say it's only half.
@@nuansd A new category that doesn't include runs using things like TRC or lotas could solve those issues, maybe something like ETAS (external tool assisted speedrun) as a category.
@@nuansd they're both TAS's though, just to different extents. there have been TAS runs played in real-time in games like half-life using tools to aid the player, it doesn't have to be perfectly scripted inputs for every frame to be considered TAS
I think this is what will happen - tool-assisted runs will continue to exist, but the prestige category for Minecraft will just shift to "any% toolless" and WRs there will be the ones making headlines.
I feel like tools should be allowed in a case-by-case, game-by-game, tool-by-tool basis. For example, the Sploosh-Kaboom tool for Wind Waker. In order to finish a 100% run, about 30-40 minutes in, you have to basically play battleship 3-4 times in a certain amount of shots. Runners hate Sploosh-Kaboom because it's pure RNG in a mostly skill-based run (not to mention it can use up a ton of Rupees needed for other things later in the run), and viewers might think it's boring to watch someone play single player battleship for 10+ minutes just to finish a run. A tool was developed that figures out what RNG step a player is on and can more or less tell what a given Sploosh-Kaboom board would be based on previous boards. A vote was made to allow the tool, and it passed. A boring 10 minute portion of the run can now be done in about 5. In Minecraft's case, I personally don't think the tool should be allowed, or at the very least a category split should be made for use of the tool versus not being able to use it. Wind Waker's case is a 4+ hour 100% speedrun with the possibility of a run completely burning due to bad RNG, even if the prior 30 minutes were absolutely perfect. Minecraft is a 10-15 minute run where many attempts can be made in a few hours and adapting to RNG is a) *possible* and b) *part of the run.*
Doesn't even matter what game it is if people want to use a tool that's just a new category. If people don't want to use a tool then they're on a different category ,it's really not that hard to figure out
I think I agree with you. If its smth thats entirely rng in a long run? yes it should be allowed. With minecraft this is just a skill thing I think and it shouldnt
While I mostly agree with you and I don't like the use of these calculators, hell I don't even like the use of the debug screen (as someone from outside the community tho). It was said in the video that this was decided by a vote just as well. This is not an arbitrary decision by the mods, it was chosen by the community.
I think tools should allowed but in their own separate category. I'm something of a purist and don't like people trying to use anything but their own two hands to achieve their times. If someone wants to use a tool that's fine. I just think those should have their own categories like many other games have. Allowing for tools to be used in runs without separating them from runs that don't is kind of a slap in the face of the runners who worked their asses off practicing strategies, perfecting travel efficiency, optimizing menu navigation etc... Imagine if the tilted cart strat or the disassembled second controller trick were allowed in Goldeneye speedrunning. It would shit on everything all the runners worked for years to accomplish. All the WRs that took years to achieve would cease to be the amazing feats that they are. I mean Karl if you read this think about how shitty it would feel if they started to allow those tricks again and all your records would go from being awesome feats of skill and practice to looking like what records from pre look down look like today.
All of the top runs are invalidated every single time a new time save is discovered, whether the time save uses a calculator or not. That possibility is something that speedrunners accept when they run a game, and they're usually happy to have their run made obsolete if a huge new time save is found. Having runs invalidated isn't an argument at all, it happens literally every day in speedrunning.
@@josephblattert6311 I think their point is that the run isn't being invalidated by a new discovery or skill, it's being made obsolete by assets that's the previous runner's most likely were well aware existed, and definitely were capable of using, they just weren't allowed to, we have separate speedrunning catagories for a reason, it is completely out of a person's control if modifications are made to the game or what rules are set in place for running that game on a competitive forum, even lesser speedrun games like the dark souls series have several catagories for this reason, in ds3 speedrunning they have both a current patch catagory and an any patch catagory since several game breaking glitches have been patched out of the game, a person has no chance of beating the world record on current patch since you can't skip half the game, so we have a separate category for it
@@shorthanyfantano6944 kind of but not really, I'm saying it's unfair to the old type of runs, they could very easily make it it's own catagory since it operates under different rules and principles but they just aren't, the way I see it it's like if they suddenly added bikes and cars to the 100m sprint
@@shorthanyfantano6944 like I personally think TAS runs are awesome and allow a different unique experience than normal speedruns, as well as helping show what is or isn't theoretically possible when a game gets runned to that point, but it just isn't the same thing, because it requires a very different skill set, take super mario for instance, it's also not like things like this make running more accessible, if anything it makes it less accessible because it creates an ever growing list of things you need to have downloaded in order to keep up
Next up: Minecraft speed running unbans bots navigating for you!? Next Next up: Minecraft speed running unbans hacks!? Next Next Next up: minecraft speed running unbans creative mode!?
I agree. While i think this decision now is bad - to me its not a huge turning point but rather a logical follow up to the decision to allow F3. The moment this information was available for the player it was obvious that people would maximize the use of it. And as soon as you need skills that have no connection to the game you loose all ways to properly monitor and regulate it. Best thing would be if people go to a "no F3" category as the main speedrun and the current ruleset is put up as a kind of semi-TAS.
I'm against the use of tools, also I'd like pausing to be prevented during the runs to prevent all these calculations. As mentioned in the video: using tools will take away the skill involved from being skilled at the game to being skilled at using these tools fast enough.
I mean, doesn't fighting the dragon and getting enough eyes to get there and all that take skill as well? Don't get me wrong, trigonometry takes skill. But, and I admit that I'm a complete outsider to Minecraft speedrunning, is doing maths an interesting skill to see as a viewer?
The tool doesn’t make it more fun, it doesn’t make the runs more interesting and it doesn’t increase the skill required. It just makes it easier, not in an intelligent interesting way it’s just easier. I guess you could make the argument it makes it more accessible but is that worth the overall reduction in challenge and skill.
@@alkaupadhyay7650 But then you have to keep looking over to check the info on it(whether it's on another screen or another tab) and that will slow you down.
When you first said calculator, I immediately thought of those TI-30X calculators we used in school. To me that type of calculator is really just an extension of pen and paper since we were taught how to do everything those calculators could do by hand. I feel like pen and paper are an obvious "tool" for any speed run and I guess by extension a hand held calculator. Maybe for me the line in the sand is "human input" for the calculations, since the tools shown in the video pretty clearly require little to no understanding on the runner's part of the calculations going on behind the scenes. The way the end of the video was worded, it seemed to imply things like pen and paper ought to invalidate a run since a runner could "just remember better" as a skill. Maybe for the hardcore purists that's an actual take. Food for thought.
"tools shown in the video pretty clearly require little to no understanding on the runner's part of the calculations going on behind the scenes" Sure like u know how calculator calculate thing like sin cos tan log. When using hand calculator like this, you sure know how those thing are calculated right?
I agree, i think paper and pen, or some external tool are fine. You have to have the game knowledge and the math knowledge... A software designed to do everything for you isn't far from a cheating software, like a bot...
I love how speedrunners responded to the banning of calculators by just making massive log tables. In all sincerity, this was an inevitable result of allowing the F3 screen. Either ban both, or ban neither.
Idk, I think allowing the f3 screen actually raises the skill ceiling. More data to look through that CAN give you an advantage, but you have to do those calculations by yourself on the fly. External tools of almost any kind lower the skill ceiling. I'm all for raising the skill ceiling on games. Let the best players do even better if they put in more work. I think lowering it in any capacity unless absolutely necessary is a great way to kill a speedrun game/category. Now that external tools are explicitly allowed, who knows what kind of programs the genius runners/programmers in the community will come up with.
@@Lodus_beatbox rules not only have to make sense (which your idea clearly does) but need to be enforced. If speedruns where made on a stage live infront of judges this would be possible, but to verify a speedrun all you can use is the data from the players system. So there is no way to distinguish between calculating fast in your head or having the spreadsheet available. To me there is only one solution: dont ban the use of the information, ban obtaining the information (F3)
I can understand how these calculations would be incredibly unfun for many, but without question this should be limited to a specific category of runs.
@Jailsongmc_ 01_ Calculations, not calculators. Calculators are tools that assist you by doing the (unfun) calculations for you. That by definition has always been a seperate category in speedrunning.
At the beginning of the video, regarding external programs, Karl says, “Gone are the days where you would actually need to use your brain.” Lol then says, “I will also share my opinion at the end.” Hmmm I wonder what his opinion is about these tool assisted runs 😆.
Honestly, I'm a bit old school and I think the debugging screen has already made it in many respects a TAS by letting you peak behind the scenes to get data you can't organic get by playing the game naturally. The fact that external calculators are allowed doesn't feel like that big of a leap to me as a result. But no, I don't think tools should be allowed.
I mean, the debug screen is available in any fresh installation of the game without even enabling it in a settings menu, it is completely available to anyone at any time.
@@dablux3892 yes, but it's called a debug for a reason. It's showing you behind the scenes information that you couldn't get naturally, i.e. through not accessing debugging features. It's a tool that is assisting your speed run.
The debug screen isn't an external tool however, and actually helps in speedrunning this extremely luck-based game. And a player would still need to have a certain kind of skill to properly process the data it gives you. I say it's a fair trade. With calculators, requiring the player's skill to process that data would be taken away entirely. Not a fair trade.
@@beauvoirferril It's not being skilled at the game, it's being proficient at maths. What would be your argument if stronghold infos were directly fed to the player in the billion info on the debug menu?
@@beauvoirferril So is the pause menu, it was a feature built right into the game, and you'd still need a certain kind of skill to properly process the information to get a fast run, but pausing breaks the intent of the run (Which is why I personally think a run should be counted from the moment the seed is loaded external to the game). If you want a unique category for pauses and debug menus I have no problem with that, but personally I don't find it interesting to watch a run where half the screen is taken up with debug information and I think it cheapens the overall talent required to get fast times. The fact that it's built in doesn't change the fact that accessing it takes you out of natural game play and into debug mode play.
At what point are runners going to take the seed and input it into a program to "calculate" the exact X,Y,Z of the stronghold and overlay arrows on the map of exactly where to go? What if they automatically analyzed each world based on the seed and overlayed arrows pointing to the best chests, bastion location, most optimal paths, or straight up said "seed not runnable" saving the runner time? Allowing any form of tool I think opens up a can of worms. Have a separate category.
@@1.0 How is the tool at 18:04 any different than taking the seed and inserting it into a program that is "forbidden"? IMO The moment you are no longer doing math in your head, you have crossed that line. Doesn't matter if a tool/spreadsheet specifically uses the seed or not, if it accomplishes the same goal as using the seed, its the same thing. Not saying it should be against the rules altogether, just to make it a separate category.
This is a slippery slope fallacy. There will be no point when this is allowed. ‘Doesn't matter if a tool/spreadsheet specifically uses the seed or not, if it accomplishes the same goal as using the seed, its the same thing.’ - of course it does. In one case you’re relying on reverse-engineering the game code and internal algorithms of the game, in the other you’re using observable in-game behaviour which is explained in game’s lore (such as it is).
I thought this was going to be justified by the idea that some "objectively bad runs" are saved and become contenders entirely based on Stronghold location luck, or "great runs" ruined for similar reasons. Color me surprised to find out that they're unbanning a tool not because it cleans up a huge RNG component, but rather, because they're not interested in enforcing it and just decided that "everyone is working around it anyway." Imagine if other rules in other competitions were dropped just because big players were circumventing them in one way or another. "We don't need the no steroid rules because the guys juicing up are just submitting someone else's samples to avoid detection!" It's just bad precedent, as you stated, and now more tools are being made to make the old tools obsolete. The game is becoming a race to see who can make the faster calculator instead of who can play with more precision, speed, and yes, even luck.
As someone with dyscalculia whose brain just does not compute numbers in a normal way, I am conflicted. I see the arguments and I 100% agree, but I also see an effort to create a chance for equality by giving everyone the same chance in getting a speedrun record. Should be a brand new category though. It IS not the same, it IS a TAS. I wish something like that would have been part of the reasons calculators were unbanned. I don't speedrun the game, but I'm not happy with the moderators' decision.
I'm pretty sure that was consideration for unbanning calculators, people had brought that up before, but mostly people didn't like that mental math in general was becoming a more important skill. Calling it a TAS is just inaccurate imo. Sure a tool is assisting your speedrun, but doesn't the timer also do that? There are also plenty of other tools like in AA for tracking which advancements you have done. The definition of a TAS is very specific, because the calculator does not perform any inputs for you, it's not considered a TAS. Karl just decided to misuse the term for some reason
As someone who has spent countless hours speedrunning a game, I can’t imagine letting something like this ever be legal. If anyone even suggested this to me as a moderator/runner, I would almost be offended tbh. I get it, it’s hard to do this stuff on the fly and the randomness is annoying, but if it’s so annoying just run a different game or category. Don’t ruin the integrity of the leaderboard or game. I’m disappointed by this news, and I hope it’ll be changed in the future
To me it depends on the tool, obviously if runners don't even need eyes to make it to the end, the game is basically pointless. But also the randomness of the old way is unrealted to skill. I think if there were only certain tools allowed, they could remove some randomness without ruining the integrity of the runs. Tools are fine until they play the game for you, just need to strike a good balance.
If you spent all your time speedrunning minecraft instead of whatever game you’re talking about, then you would understand why minecraft unbanned calculators. Don’t make uninformed opinions
@@Shnenanigans Uninformed? I've tried my best to keep up with the minecraft stuff for a while and I can tell you that decreasing the necessary skill level didn't make the category any better or give it any more integrity. Explain to me how a tool assist would make this any better as a speedgame. It doesn't, maybe it makes it more enjoyable for some people to run, but it hurts the game
@@tastydirtydan988 I agree that there can be a balance in specific cases, but I also think that when it removes a skill needed to complete a run quickly, it goes over that line
The vote was not made becase "the randomness is annoying", it was made becase there were tools that were technically allowed, but did not fall under the spirit of the rules. It was the speedrunners who decided this rule, not you
I feel there are edge cases where external tools make the run more interesting or remove arbitrary RNG that would otherwise cause excessive resets in otherwise flawless runs. Not sure that this qualifies under that, though. Finding the stronghold seems like a major part of the run, not an arbitrary bit of RNG, and there's gameplay elements already in place to help.
What this makes me think of is the ruling about allowing the RNG search for the Squid Hunt minigame in Wind Waker 100%. This is technically a tool. However, NOBODY liked doing Squid Hunt because it was so easy to never have enough information to successfully finish it on even a few passes, so the game could take anywhere from 5 to 30 minutes. That's ridiculous! Also, the game had a few million possible states, and just trying best battleship style probabilities wasn't THAT much better. So what they did was, someone built a tool that would figure out where in the RNG you were when you got to the game (rough estimate based on your current time, which would be +- a few thousand values. You play the game once, you figure out which precise value WAS called for that game, then play it again. Now you only have less than a hundred possibilities for which board your rolled, and it only takes 4-5 shots to narrow the possibility grid down to one, and so you get to finish the game in a much more consistent amount of time. The ruling the Wind Waker community made was that this tool was allowed, because everyone wanted it, but you were NOT allowed to have the script run automatically. You HAD to punch in your values manually, same as you would for having any lookup tables or other cheat sheets offscreen. I think this is fine, because speedruns have always allowed cheat sheets. You are allowed timers for "guess how much time has passed" minigames, and this is really just a more complex version of that. But the main thing here is that the community wanted it--it made an unfun part of the game into something that both saves time, is more consistent, and is about the same level of player involvement. IMO, the place where minecraft is falling short here is that they're allowing people to copy-paste directly from the debug menu into an outside program. Otherwise, this IS just an evolution of strategy, given that they debug menu's been allowed for so long. At the very least, people should be required to run the calculator entirely separately from the game, such as on a different computer, phone or tablet. I think that would be the most fair option. EDIT: to note that even in this case the "most fair" option doesn't necessarily mean a GOOD option, since in this case it's not removing an unpredictable side quest, it's just taking out a large chunk of the skill that used to be there. It's just been optimized now and I'm not sure how to otherwise fix that, other than banning the debug menu again or something.
@@rickpgriffin This is exactly what I thought of when the whole idea of the Minecraft speedrun being a TAS now was brought up. That minigame in Wind Waker is just agonizing to watch, play and sit through from both sides of the speedrun. Finding the Stronghold is such an integral part of the Minecraft speedrun that it might as well be automating a quarter of the run versus removing ridiculous RNG from multi-hour 100% WW run.
@@IggyHitokage That's the other thing. I wonder if at this point the genie's out of the bottle, and the fun has been optimized out of (a quarter of) the run. Because if it isn't this, it WOULD just be the spreadsheet lookup tables.
Nice to know that the advice of our school of never having calculators on us at all times is once again disproven. It being in Minecraft speedrunning is a nice bonus.
Thats the thing: our calculators dont do the entire job, you still need to know how to do it, theirs are probably programmed to do it, since they arent in math class so why waste time?
@@stonksrus I have a thing in my hand right now, it's called a smartphone and it has a calculator. I can add and subtract in my head as well as do full figures on tax when buying stuff but I'm pretty bad at fractions and division. We literally always have a calculator on us now and math teachers keep saying the same lie of us not having one. And in a job where it's math intensive we have calculators always.
@@ralcogaming7674 the point of not using calculators in education is to teach you the fundamentals of arithmetic and other more complex types of math (more advanced calculators have extremely cool features that solve very complex equations and forms). At your job, you need to get a job done. So nobody cares how you get to it. But in school, where you are supposed to learn stuff, it is good practice to teach you to be able to do math without a calculator. It will also make you a better calculator user because you will know what needs to be done and roughly how it works. Programmers go through the same ordeal. You study a programming language and use it in what is called "vanilla form" and then after you got the fundamentals, you can start using more advanced tools that save you programming time and you can install libraries and modules and import code from other places to save time. You could develop everything yourself, but it wouldn't improve your skills much, it will just cost time. So just like math, first you learn to do it and then in practice you can start using tools to assist you since production is more important than the purity of the craft because nobody cares. Speedrunning is a sport. In sports being a puritan is part of the point of it. It's a measurement of skill and perseverance. There is not product you need to ship to a client with a deadline. There are math competitions with rules that don't allow calculators and you need to memorize a lot of mathematical tricks to figure things out. That's the point of competition. If schools allow you to use calculators from young age, it's really bad. It will make you much weaker in a world that more and more requires math (mainly in the digital world). It's a transferable skill. It's similar to writing and typing. You are taught to write first because if you know how to write, you can quickly transition to typing. But if you learn to type, it's really hard then to learn how to write. Typing is a tool for writing just like a calculator is a tool for arithmetic (and other math related stuff). You learn the fundamentals and then use tools that help you do more advanced stuff or just to the fundamentals faster. There is a reason for that order, and if you don't respect it, well, I've got nothing to say to you. Schools in that respect are doing the right thing. Don't use calculators in math when you are learning math (late highschool is fine if it's for various arithmetic nonsense cause by that time you should've practiced enough).
I agree that allowing calculators for this is absurd, its like allowing students to use their phones on an exam. It completely takes the point out of it.
It seems like the whole issue could be so easily solved by creating different categories and letting the community decide which category they like the most. The continuous changes of rules makes older runs incomparable with the new ones. A situation where some runners use tools and others don't (or don't want to) is the worst possible outcome.
If massive game breaking glitches found early in a game's life can kill hype, I can only imagine how bad tool assisted speed runs that are not proper TAS will kill interest. Removing the human element without replacing it with dedication like those seen in proper TAS just removes the fun.
The League of Their Own quote really sums it up perfectly. 'Of course it's hard, otherwise everyone would be able to do it, that's what makes it special'
I always find massive glitches while facinating boring speedruns. Even if the game is old. This is specifically about oot, like I forget the glitches name I'm sorry but finding it etc all that is really cool but seeing it in use kinda blah. idk where I was going with that but like I agree its taking away smth I think allowing this because its just gonna allow more until its just.. bad.
Well this is the glitchless category and looking at a spreadsheet isn't a glitch. Also the human element in finding a stronghold is based on luck and very easy. Not really a cool element such as bastion raiding and one cycling for example.
@@iimuffinsaur Nice thing about OoT is it already established its self before a lot of more recent glitches. It will get a lot of neat categories, similar to SM64. Meanwhile DOOM Eternal will likely only see glitchless or all glitches
In my view, this is just the natural consequence of allowing the debug menu. Once you allow what is essentially an in-game tool-assist, it becomes a lot harder to draw the line somewhere else.
Playing minecraft without f3 would be kind of weird since you use it in normal gameplay anyways. Playing normally OR running without f3 would basically be a challenge run.
Even allowing the use of F3 has always seemed baffling to me. It's one thing to allow glitches, those might be unintentional, but at the end of the day they arise from the actual gameplay mechanics and are arguably just a part of them. F3 isn't really a gameplay mechanic though, it's a debugging tool. Allowing it to be used is analogous to allowing the use of console commands or cheat codes. I think if a guy just used the console to fly to the end in a game like Skyrim pretty much everyone would consider that cheating. Obviously F3 doesn't have as dramatic an effect, but I still consider it cheating since like noclip, it's a developer tool rather than a real mechanic. That said there's nothing wrong with allowing some forms of cheating if it makes for a more interesting competition. I guess it just bothers me when it's unacknowledged, like if the category is labelled any%. I guess they couldn't call it something like any% cheats allowed, since it would inevitably be taken as a value judgement even if it wasn't intended as such, but if things like developer tools or external programs are used I really think that should be acknowledged somewhere in the name of the category.
Totally agree. The leader boards do note whether people use F3 or not and some runners don't use it but the vast majority do. I wish F3less was more prevalent but the majority of players use it even playing casually so it has become an accepted part of the game. I am in the minority of Minecraft players in that I have always considered using F3 as cheating and could never understand why it didn't have less info by default and allow co-ordinates only if cheats were enabled(there are ways to remove co-ordinates but they are hidden away in the settings). I find it much less interesting but people will use whatever is easier.
Don't take this as an offense or anything, but you probably don't play Minecraft, F3 is basically a feature by this point and will never be removed. I'd say 90% or even more of the community consider it a quality of life tool more than anything else.
Allowing F3 in a game with an Ender Pearl mechanic means that precise mathematical triangulation was inevitable. Mods should've had the foresight to ban F3 usage, or at least restrict F3 to a separate category. Something like the hop-four-times-to-the-side trick that Karl demonstrated seems like the perfect blend of applying outside trigonometry while also relying on player skill and execution. I feel like there's plenty of other games/categories out there that would get crusty if they had and allowed similar debug tools to be legal in speedrunning.
@@subzerosanijs yeah F3 is heavily used in any type of technical play from farms to grinders to chunk loaders to messing with light levels. Use of F3 is far from cheating it's a basic feature that is intentionally updated for users to use just like other features.
Absolutely agree. I've loved watching speedruns for many years but have never watched Minecraft runs. I clicked this vid because Karl's content is interesting. I was instantly flabbergasted to learn what the F3 function was and that it was actually deemed acceptable in a normal Any% speedrun! To me, the addition of unbanning calculators was just icing on an already questionable cake. I'm not trying to take anything away from anyone. Just make separate categories, and everyone can run the game how they prefer while still remaining competitive within those categories.
18:38 Regarding the Twitch chat "helping" runners, it's a common thing in Factorio Speedrun community, maybe because it's more relaxed this way, or maybe because the amount of focus for speedrunning this game is daunting, anyway it's probably way different than Minecraft viewers running the calculators themselves, most of the time it's to help the runner fix some error he missed that could ruin the run half an hour later...
I would compare this with the use of outside program in Wind Waker HD for the Sploosh Kaboom mini-game, but on a far more abusable scale. The program used to pinpoint the RNG value of the game with Sploosh Kaboom boards is used in order to complete the mini-game with far less possible timeloss, but it is slower to use since you have to manually input board states in the program. It also is only there to prevent minutes of timeloss from randomness, but in a multiple hour speedrun. The case of calculator for triangulation in Minecraft is not a thing to remove random timeloss, but to remove most of the calculation on the runner's part. The length of the speedrun being from 10 minutes to half an hour also makes it worse. You have a tool in game to figure out where the stronghold is, the calculation are doable in real-time (even simple approximations), but you remove all that for more consistant runs, and remove a big skill element at the end of the run. As an outside viewer, I am definitely against the motion to allows calculators in Minecraft speedruns, but I can understand that this problem comes from the speedrun itself becoming so incredibly optimised.
I had the exact same thought. You could read the same text as the conclusion of the WW video, and every word would make sense, but it would be the opposite of what he said that time. Actually it's worse, as the WW exploit identifies the random seed, which could also be done in Minecraft based on the blocks, in order to know everything about a world.
@@lukeshoo If said strat existed is it documented anywhere? I'd love to be wrong but if there was a guaranteed win every time I'd imagine speed runners would have found it and been abusing it by now.
@@lukeshoo Thats what runners did do before the tool and they would end up losing tons of time because it isn't nearly as accurate or successful as you think it is, especially when you need to go for the high score reward in 100%
The point of finding the stronghold is to use your game knowledge, and experience and understanding of the games mechanics to locate it. I don’t care what method they use, if you have the location literally given to you without any in game effort, then it is by definition assisted. Really feels like they missed the forest for the trees with this decision.
Well put. 👍 Why Minecraft community thought that using a DEBUGGING TOOL (F3) in any form of competition was acceptable is beyond me. 🤦🏻♂️ All the other issues stem from this one baffling decision to allow players access to information that they were never intended to have. For TAS use whatever you like (hence the name “tool assisted”), but for non-TAS there should be NO tools allowed. There, problem(s) solved. Next. 🙃
@@rksworld4405 the kind of people who want to use software to improve their chances in-game are the same clowns that would make sockpuppets to brigade a vote.
@@GleeAllmighty Even the TASers wouldn't agree to it. We're about pushing the game to a theoretical fastest/most entertaining playthrough, we only want to use set seeds or premade maps and break them. This would be an incredibly unoptimized LOTAD, not even TAS.
the f3 menu gives you information, but you need a lot of skill to use that information. Calculators require basically no skill at all except getting the right angle.
This isn't the first game I've heard use external tools for speedrunning, as Windwaker also allowed a tool for speeding up one of its minigames. The key difference between the cases, and why I think that calculators should not be allowed is that 1.) the section in Windwaker that was sped up was a 30-minute, mostly luck-based section with little math and 2.) the tool was fully external (no copy and pasting coordinates). I am more sympathetic to tools that make games more skilled-based and more watchable, not the other way around.
Pretty mmuch it's the same as step routes in the JRPGs. All it does is replace RNG with skill. Before they were made it was pure RNG who had the record, now there's actual skill as if you step off that route ONCE you're borked.
I think the big difference is also just the percentage of "run deciding moments" this affects. For Minecraft, it's literally next to all of them - You don't start a run without finding a village basically at spawn. While a ruined portal is nice, it's not THAT big of a time loss to not have one, especially with bastions. This means that your "big deciding factors" are... Pure RNG from Piglins, and finding the stronghold. You're removing 50% of the run deciding factors, and the only one that required actual skill, knowledge, ability, game knowledge, game sense, w/e term you want to use. Windwaker? Is Sploosh Kaboom even 1% of a 100% run?
Yeah, full agree. Wind Waker's eliminated a boring, 100% RNG, and small part of an otherwise interesting run. Minecraft's tools *destroy* a key element of the run which promoted learning/training skills and lead to longer, more interesting runs in general.
Windwaker was the first thing I thought of as well. The difference, for me, is that Windwaker's tool is used to bypass a singe random part of a non-random game. Minecraft on a random seed is all about randomness. If people want a non-random experience, they should run set seeds.
(Great wall of text incoming) As a speedrunner in a community that is no stranger to arguing fervently about rules, I think this situation is a little bit more complicated than you have portrayed it. Ultimately, the people who make the decisions for the rules of Minecraft speedrunning should be the people who speedrun Minecraft, and if that's the way it currently is, that's their choice. Viewer enjoyment of a speedrun is definitely an important factor that should be taken into account, but it is not the only factor to be taken into account, or even the largest factor. One thing that I have observed in my own speedrunning community is something I'll call "rule creep", where over the course of long time spans, more "modern" game rulings eventually become normalized, and then making even more things allowed seems reasonable (like first F3 screen, and then calculator tools). This can be hard to spot, as often viewers don't have the knowledge to understand fully what is going on in a speedrun, and the rules are usually made to enhance the player experience, so most runners will have no objections. That being said, I think one of the most important factors in making rules for speedruns is the experience of the runner. If a rule makes a game more fun to run, then usually it would be a good rule. Of course, you can't start allowing noclip in every speedrun, but there is a point somewhere in between no rule changes and allowing noclip that is the optimal rule change. People will disagree about where this point is, and personally I lie on the side of traditionalism in speedrunning (less things allowed), but people differ greatly in opinion on this subject. Regarding Minecraft specifically, I agree that allowing the stronghold calculator programs drastically changes the run, and when comparing it to a no-F3 style run, its almost completely different. But calling them tool assisted speedruns is misinformed at best, and disingenuous at worst - thats obviously only a TAS by name, and not what a real TAS is. Making a new category for calculators allowed is also problematic, because you can't just create new categories for every rule change, because then there will be 80 different categories for every different rule, and while there may be a lot of minecraft runners, in my experience there is a limit to how many categories can be active at once, and that limit is small. Plus, you wouldn't want every runner to pick their category based on what rules they want to follow and then have no competition because there are 20 categories; they should all compete on the same boards with fair rules, whenever possible, unless there is a different version or a significantly different rule that players show genuine interest in running. Category shaming aside, I think the solution many other commenter have pointed out about splitting into a "no-F3 category" and an "F3+calculators" category could be good, as those two categories are sufficiently different from each other, and a no F3 category could lead to new strategies, such as throwing eyes, moving while keeping the mouse still, then throwing eyes again and counting pixels to triangulate. As a final thought, I just want to remind everyone that what the Minecraft speedrunning community does is their own business, and they will almost certainly do what is in their best interest, as they are the ones who know what it's like to actually run the game
Agreed, they should split the categories, in fact probably should have split them from the moment people started using the F3 window.. How many games already use external information to aid speed runs? So many games have been taken apart to determine the chance, or even the seeded chance of a given thing happening in so many games that lots of people know to throw out a run if they don't get good RNG on certain early events. You can't, and shouldn't ban memorizing where to go an what to do in a game, as that's half or more of speed running, but you CAN'T memorize where to go in MC, as it's randomized, and the only tool you have to figure out where to go injects huge, late game RNG. To compare it to something else, the Windwaker 100% guys have spent forever working out how to manipulate the RNG on sploosh kaboom and the auctions, that's no different than this, and was done for the same reasons, to help reduce late-game RNG. Basically the argument here is, "Well, you should learn to do complex geometry, in your head, or else this major, late part of the run should basically be subject to RNG for you." Geometry has almost nothing to do with playing Minecraft. I admit I don't much care about MC speed runs, but if I were watching, it wouldn't be to see how good the player is at estimating complex geometry in their head, or else how lucky they get on the random checks that their eyes break if they're bad at it. 🤷♂
@@Nevir202 well about that last point, geometry doesn't normally have much to do with Minecraft, but if it helps you go faster then it has everything to do with speedrunning minecraft. Speedruns inherently require bizzare and unique skills that are not normally required
I agree with making the distinction between F3 and no-F3, since F3 can be considered a debug tool or console/cheat access. making the distinction between "you can perform these kinds of calculations this way but not these other kinds of calculations this other way" makes no sense to me.
@@dontbeasadsoulja fair, but the point of speedrunning isn't really to get people to watch your runs; that's just a side effect. That being said, I can't actually nail down what the point of speedrunning is besides "go fast" but it's probably a little different for everyone, for some people it may be to make videos people will watch, idk
personally I already drew that line when the debug menu became popular. sure yeah its build into the game, but it's not part of the gameplay mechanics if you ask me. Using it to be better/faster at the game always felt off to me. Honestly, allowing calculators feels more in line with allowing debug information. I like neither. On another note, what stops people from opening a new category? isn't that what speedrunners always do in these cases?
I think the problem with a new category is that there's no way to validate that a runner didn't use a calculater/spreadsheat/chat or something like that.
Indeed, before I was on the fence about f3 but now I do feel that it would be for the best if it was banned. After all, commands are part of the game, and yet pressing Open to LAN > Allow Cheats: On during a speedrun is illegal. Subnautica for example has a separate console allowed category, which tends to end in under 2 seconds.
Karl: "Gone are the days where you actually needed to use your brain" Also Karl: "I'll also share my opinion at the end" I feel like you already did...
That's what's called 'poisoning the well'. And this video is nothing but that from beginning to end. Calling for a discussion after such a primer is just a slap in the face.
@@meinacco it was actually so heavy-handed that I thought there was going to be a twist at the end where Karl was actually fine with the ruling and was just pretending to hold the opposite opinion, like when he started a video a bit ago with "this just in: speedrunning isn't fun".
There’s nothing I love more than a Karl Jobst video where you can feel his intense disapproval of something/someone bubbling underneath his signature monotone voice the entire time. It’s the definition of passive aggressive and I love it.
@@meinacco I get you, and your point is very valid now that I think about it, but Karl obviously feels extremely passionately about this. Speedrunning is his life and he sees the things in this video as ruining the spirit of it, even admitting in this video that he finds some of those things “offensive”. Karl isn’t able to fully contain his sarcasm, yes, but he still presents all of the pure facts that anybody would need to make an opinion against OR for this decision. So, I excuse it. Besides, anybody who follows Karl’s content 100% knew that we would get his opinion and what it would be as soon as we started the video. He’s made his stance very clear in the past, don’t need an external tool to do the math on this one.
I think using F3 in itself is already pretty controversial and shouldn't be allowed in my opinion, using any form of external tool, even if it was just a simple calculator, is the cherry on top of it.
As far as I'm concerned, using the debug screen also counts as tool-assisted. It's not part of the game itself, as it is a debugging tool. As soon as you start number crunching/ calculating is when the line is crossed.
@@theopendoorev its freely available to anyone as soon as they install the game. You dont need to enable it anywhere, it is simply just a part of the game. Besides, bedrock edition displays the coordinates as a base feature, so why is using the debug menu in java to see the coordinates any different?
The whole point of this specific category is that it's random/no pre-generated seed, yes? The best way to handle it would be to create a separate category that allows the use of some limited tool/s to be able to find stronghold. But like you said, at that point it's basically an ongoing slope of 'where do you stop allowing tools?'. If you allow tools to find the stronghold, why not tools to find the nether fortress or bastions? or villages in the overworld? Why bother with a random seed at all, if you're just going to start allowing tools and methods to 'undo' some of the randomness? At some point, you may aswell be running a pre-generated seed. But either way; it should really be a separate leader-board altogether to denote the differences in skill/execution.
@@CtrlAltSpray Honestly that could have a place for speedrunning tournaments. Imagine all the big speedrunners sign up for a tournament. The players all load up their clients, start recording, and then the admins announce the seed for that particular run. Given how random minecraft speedrunning is, I'm surprised this hasn't become a thing yet.
How would external tools to find fortress villages (pepelaugh useless) and bastions work. WR holder Brentilda said it pretty well "Anyone who thinks like this should run the game for a little while and see if they don't drastically change their opinion. A no-f3 category is not a bad idea at all, the problem is no one wants to run it at a serious level because it's 100x more of an RNG fest. It's almost like this video is by and for people who don't have any clue about speedrunning this game, and the video doesn't give them any necessary context at all. Another thing most viewers don't realize is that even the vast majority of anti-calculator people in the community support things that would be considered "tools", they mostly support the use of spreadsheets and tables which are just precalculations for you to look at after you get your angle change. Non-calculator triangulation doesn't require tremendous skill, doesn't have much skill gap and requires more luck. Even with no human error it's still luck if you hit the stronghold, unlike with calculator. The iron-man argument against calculators would be that "luck which can be influenced by skill is the name of the game, so make people triangulate manually". But I doubt you could also get people to vote out the use of tables/spreadsheets mid run, or have a split based on the usage of this. This is the core of the whole issue which this video doesn't even begin to touch. Hopefully no one tells Karl or most of his viewers that RSG runners use multiple instances of the game with mods to make it run faster, generate worlds faster, and macros to do countless resetting inputs for you if you click once. I think that might be "tool assisted". It's almost like the boundaries we set are slightly arbitrary and 75% of top runners voted to arbitrarily allow calculators."
@@_mark_3814 Karl has been speedrunning MC for at least a year, and has nothing against F3 debug. It's almost as if you haven't watched any of his videos and came here just to disagree with him.
@@JMcAfreak I am in Karl's discord server and actively keep up with him. Saying he's been speedrunning MC for at least a year implies he has been doing it actively. He has not. He has been playing on the Legends SMP a bit I believe though. Just because I disagree with a creator doesn't mean I don't watch his videos. Calculators are primarily reducing luck and not skill at the top level. Top runs already have god blinds.
One would expect, with the abundance of new players, that the rules would be made, on the contrary, harder. I don't understand the decision either. It makes no sense to call non assisted, a tool assisted speedrun, even if only one tool is used. In minecraft, finding the stronghold is a real gameplay element, in which skill is important not to waste eyes. it's not like it's full luck finding it.
I'm down for splitting calc and non-calc times. While this is a barrier for entry, it's one that leads to this speedrun being as unique as it is. Good analysis, Jobst, as always.
If anything, I think Minecraft has a genuine issue with the fact that most seeds are doomed to be _very_ sub-optimal from the start. At best, you have to restart 20 times until you roll a good seed, and at worse, you find that the current seed is not good very late into the run. Being able to triangulate the stronghold location is a skill, while having a fortress with no blaze spawners in it is a run automatically failed far before you even know it. And for "casual speedrunners" this is even more prominent: while triangulation can save you a couple minutes which are crucial at the top level, having to restart a casual 30-minute speedrun because the current seed just happened to be bad is a far greater loss.
100% agree, brentilda's run was basically a segmented rsg run. True rsg runs half the point is that it is random and you have to react on the fly. The pause abuse removed that key element of the speedrun. As far as I am concerned we still have yet to see the first true sub 10 rsg run and if this calculator rule stands we may never see it happen.
Imagine running a category where the randomness of the seed is the point, trying to use tools to effectively eliminate the RNG of the seed when there is already a fixed seed category.
It feels like the real problem is f3 debug mode, though. Debug mode is already arguably a cheat, and one that gives information that can so easily be exploited. If you want to argue against the overuse of pausing, then you can't even justify debug use as being "part of the game". You might as well just have two groups, one for no abuses and one where all abuses are allowed. If you want a "pure" speedrun that has "meaning", don't use Debug either. If you want assists to boost your time, then you get Debug, calculators, pause abuse, and whatever other shortcuts the community wants to develop.
Yeah, maybe the solution here should be one category where debug is not allowed and one where it is. Just call it something neutral like debug-allowed or no-debug, and players will automatically sort themselves according to how they want the game to be played.
Thanks, that's exactly the issue I have with his position. He takes umbrage with calculators, spreadsheets, and pause-spam, but sees no problem with using the F3 menu - and I'm pretty sure an earlier video of his lauded SM64 runners for modifying their controller to get a specific angle easier (might've been ezscape though). This sounds less like someone who is concerned about the integrity of speedrunning or whatever, and more like someone who just likes where the rules *are,* and doesn't want to adapt to change.
The difference is that pausing the game was stopping the timer. Using the F3 screen gives you a lot of information, but it still takes time for the player to read the information, understand it, and then figure out what to do with it. If you could look at the F3 screen and pause the game for 5 minutes to think about it, then we would have a problem. I don't remember what the solution to the pause abuse feature was (haven't seen the video in a while), but if the timer kept going through pause screens, I don't think anyone would have an issue with pausing the game to think about your next move. But really, using *external tools* and literally stopping the timer is way worse than using the information the game gives to you, especially when that information takes a lot of effort and knowledge in order to even be useful in the first place. I do agree that the uses of certain tools and techniques should be in a separate category though. I just wonder which one would end up being more popular.
I have a rather controversial mindset that the debug screen shouldn’t even be viewable in survival mode. There should in-game tools for cords, biome, light levels, etc… but I fully understand why this will probably never be the case.
There's more to the F3 screen than just that; it also shows information about Minecraft's performance (framerate and ram usage for example), current version, targeted block, targeted entity, etc It's way more than just your location. To get rid of it entirely is a waste of something that is useful to basically everyone. While I agree that there should be more immersive methods of determining things like light level, getting rid of F3 in its entirety is not the way to do that. Not everyone speedruns, and as such, not everyone (more like no-one) will find that change welcome.
@@flux7945 well, there *was* going to be a more immersive method of determining light levels, but people didn't vote for it Thanks mojang for having amazing ideas and erasing them from existence forever because one other idea just happened to be cooler.
A tool should always be an extension of ones own abilities. If the tool starts doing some of your own work for you then it is not okay. An accepted tool can for example be a better grip for a controller, or a mouse with better precision.
@@DarkDyllon Not really. The tool should just enhance your own abilities but still require you to do it. Think of a sword vs. a thermonuclear warhead. Both will kill your target but the sword is just a force multiplier while the warhead requires no external force of your own.
Simple solution from my ignorant point of view: Reban F3. Takes away any of the problems with policing tools as it kills any of these current strats. I don't know just how badly that will effect the runs, and how they'd become even more swingy in terms of luck than before. Maybe it would be too much for the community. But I think using tools hurts the competition too much to be allowed.
Banning f3 would solve it ,but literally zero people who actually run the game want it to be banned and it would make running minecraft any% rsg infinately more shitty.
It would hurt the runs really badly, trust me. IMO it's ok because at least it is a part of the game (I'm basically playing in F3 half of the time even though I'm not a speedrunner) and not some sort of outside tool or spreadsheet
Your solution would solve this problem. But it will not pass because it clashes with another problem with MC speedruns. Very heavy dependance on good RNG. There is so many big and little things that can happen in MC that can screw your run without you being able to do anything about them. You can play as perfectly as you want but without amazing RNG you will still not get anywhere near top of leaderbords. F3 removes part of that RNG in fair way (fair in sense that it works the same for everyone without any bias). With current speedruning times, getting back to age before F3 would probably cause quite an outrage. And removing all times, or moving them to TAS would cause outrage too. In both cases it would put a lot of people at huge disadvantage or simply thrown away result of their efforts.
@@mikeanthony999 What do you mean? F3 mode is not external. It is not intended for excessive usage but it is still in-game feature usable without any other software
Ohhh that quote from "a league of their own " I always liked it. it applies to so many scenarios. And yes, speed running is supposed to be hard. I have played a few video games in my life but I'd never want to speed ran them, cause it'd be hard and I don't care about that kind of greatness. But adding third party programs and tools just defeats the purpose
Speaking as an outside observer of speedruns, I could only see things turn out like this when f3 was allowed. I since then had lost interest in Minecraft speedruns, and this just further cements my decision. It's no longer a game of skill, knowledge, and chance but an exercise in who can fill in the blanks faster. Again, in my non-speedrunner opinion.
I run games very casually, but I still see external tools as an issue. I feel that something like f3 is interesting, but deserving of an alternate category. It requires a different skillset.
@@benjaminshields9421 yeah I kinda agree, I think using f3 shouldn't be banned but like it's clearly kinda cheating.. gives you way too much info and I think calculators are just an extension of that
I agree, and what surprised me the most in this video was learning the arguments for the unban. I'd expect something about how luck doesn't reflect skill, but allowing it because it's too hard to prevent seems ridiculous. Like other comments below, I'm also surprised they didn't just add more speedrun categories. It'd make perfect sense to just split runs into something like standard, calculator and TAS, and maybe variants with or without using f3. In most games with many speedrunning categories it becomes apparent pretty quickly which ones are more popular anyway, and the risk of someone secretly using a calculator in a calculator-less run would be very low. Not because cheaters don't exist, but because most runners participating in no-calculator speedrunning would presumably be people who are against the use of calculators in the first place.
It being too hard to detect is a legitimate reason imo. Imagine all the time it saves the mod team from having to investigate whether or not a calculator was used. The only realistic way to ensure that someone isn't using one of these calculators is to have the speedrunners live streaming not only their game but themselves as well. Using one of these calculators and getting away with it is easier than committing murder or producing child pornography. What is the point in having this as a rule if it is impossible to enforce?
Here in the comments, I'm seeing a lot of folks talk about how these should be separate categories, and I do agree with that. However, I wonder if it wouldn't make sense to have the category distinction be based on the use of the F3 Debug stuff. I mean, if the hard numbers are there, is it really that much of a skill difference between calculating the values mentally and using a calculator? Sure, guestimating where the Stronghold is will be less precise and the player will still need to use those eyes to find it as they get closer, but the main concern is how will we know the player isn't using an external calculator from the footage provided? Instead, would it make more sense to assume those using the F3 Debug menu are going to use calculators, and have that be the category. It seems to be it would be much easier to feel confident that calculators aren't being used if the Debug details aren't available. Perhaps there are still loopholes, but it may make identifying a run a little cleaner. It's just a thought, though. I know next to nothing about Minecraft speedrunning in general.
I think I agree with this take the most. Because like if the runners are using the F3 menu, disallowing calculators is just punishing people that can't trig well and you're effectively just a power-tripping high school math teacher. Karl said himself that most people using the F3 methods and doing the 50-block just have key values memorized and those using 17.5-block use a nifty math lifehack of dividing by 1000 or whatever. Like if you're gonna memorize a trig table, just use the damn calculator, that doesn't help and is just a somewhat elitist barrier to entry and the whole take of "just be smart" is a bad one, like sorry, muscle memory and setups for consistency, etc. are relevant skills but not memorizing a damn trig table. SO just leave it as that, F3+Calculator and NO F3. Very simple distinction that would make both camps happy, and I'd even posit that many of people that would try to argue F3 no calculator are doing so in bad faith, because again, its not testing an actual game-related mechanics and skills, it's just to create this random concept of "just be smarter" about something that shouldn't even be significant to the speedrun. The ability to recall trivial information about math is irrelevant to minecraft and I think that a lot of the F3 menu use is just to help people recall random numbers. All the "skillful setups" are just to remember math tables better, and sorry but memorizing math tables is not in any way more impressive than just reading the tables or having the tables calculated for you. Like sure, memorizing key values of the Thermodynamics table for a specific common liquid refrigerant might help you out on the Unit exam in your college course that you have an hour to complete, but it makes you no better an engineer than one that just reads the tables themselves or puts in the equations in their calculator. Same with speedrunning, in my opinion, which is to say not much of an opinion given my relative lack of knowledge about minecraft speedruns, just based on the statements made in this video, this is my take. BUT with that said, I do agree with the take that calculators pushes it into TAS territory and should be a distinct category. And again, I agree with you specifically in that the category distinction should be made at the F3 menu level rather than the calculator level.
"is it really that much of a skill difference between calculating the values mentally and using a calculator?" - Yes. Being able to do trigonometry in your head is a skill.
Frankly allowing F3 was already a step too far for me, this is simply a natural extension of that. In fact as long as F3 is allowed I am all for this so as to not unnecessarily gatekeep against speedrunners with dyscalculia and similar disabilities who would otherwise have all the speedrunning skill and knowledge to do the run. Keep the calculator, or ditch F3 entirely. Don't half ass this garbage.
I fully agree with you in this regard. If F3 is allowed, using calculators to simply crunch the numbers from that debug menu is fair game. I'm kinda annoyed that F3 is not part of its own category or not considered tool-assisted since it trivializes all of the difficulty of obtaining the F3 info anyway.
@@debornmc okay lets speedrun GTA games by using built in cheat button combinations or Retrogames by using Passwords that spawn you at the final boss. All built into the game! What a terrific experience it is to watch someone trying to type a password quickly in order to shave off 1s off of their PB. F3 is a pandoras Box you shouldn't open.
i never said "because its in the game it should be allowed" with that logic /gamemode creative and /locate stronghold would be allowed as well im just saying theres a difference between external tools and internal tools. which of those tools should be allowed and which are considered cheats depends on the game (obviously) looking back my original comment was kinda dum, shouldnt have made it :P
I saw the video about pausing and unpausing during a run to stop the clock. Allowing a calculator basically means you can toss your pearl, pause, do your calculations, then go back to the game KNOWING where the stronghold is without having lost any time. Ridiculous.
Huge thanks to Raid for giving me money.
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No.
Congratulations on your exclusive sponsorship for this exciting new game. I've heard many great things about.. hahaha as if. Well I can't blame you.
I've never played mine craft (I'm old), but I love Karl's videos, so here I am.
Merry Christmas, everyone.
This game is all the rage in the gaming community right now
Genuine question could you cover the GuitarHeroStyles/AdvyStyles drama? It’s a major topic in the geometry dash community.
Imagine you practice for a marathon for years and years. You dedicate your life to it and then someone comes up and is like: "Yea, you can also use cars now"
Excellent analogy bro!
Or if cars were banned, but bicycles were allowed. "He's still using his legs for power, so it's allowed".
sounds rad as hell
This is more like, you don't have to carry your own water now.
What kind of analogy is this? All the external tools do is give the location of the Stronghold. It's like running a marathon except you have the GPS on your phone so you know how to get to the finish line.
"The final part of the run is The End"
Look Karl, I know exactly what you mean, but this still got a surprisingly large chuckle out of me
Yes -he did have to confirm that we are not talking about, say, the Sonic, Tails and Knuckles category-
kek
@@unavailableun You gave me a stroke reading this
@@sipinosapa _bows_
I’m a musician, and in the world of music when a new tool comes out that makes the process of creating music more accessible it’s always a positive thing. When I started this video that was what I was thinking about and how that mindset could be true with speed running as well. More people being able to run the game without having to know all the strategies and math involved. However it only took me a few minutes to realize that speed running is different. Speed running isn’t art it’s a sport, you should have to learn the strategies and techniques to make it to the top. Speed running has a clear finish line, being the fastest in the world and to be the fastest you should have to play without the aid of any device that simplifies the process. It is hard but that’s the point of it.
The spirit is important, but if all you want is hard they could be saying "no F3 either". What's also important is that most of the community agrees on and plays within the rules.
I agree. Music isn't a competitive sport. That being said, I wouldn't mind if autotune was banned :D
@@soapfoam f3 is in the game, calculators are not
musician here as well. Perfecting your musicianship does not have a clear finish line, speedrunning does. I totally agree with you here.
@@Alpacachino_ Going back to music - just because people are trained on classical means they shouldn't use outside resources like jazz chords and microtonal scales? It's a matter of taste. If you don't like that make something different (a new leaderboard, an appeal to the minecraft mods, etc.)
Straight up insane for them to do this without making a separate category.
Yeah, the majority of top minecraft speedrunners who made this decision on their own are INSANE and definitely not the guy who "hates" their decision
I'm with this- I don't want to punish runners who have worked hard to develop this skill, but nor do I blame runners who want to eliminate a math intensive, slower paced part of the run, particularly since people are finding ways around it anyway and it's very hard to prove the not-use of many of the things implemented. We could go back to no F3, but that slows things down SO MUCH, and speedrunners would lose their minds
On that note, I fully support a "No F3" category extension
@@mjp121 Already exists. Doesn't get runs and doesn't get attention because the game is extremely random without it. You guys have to deal with reality man this is insane...
@@shorthanyfantano6944 'the guy who hates their decision' if you have to make bad faith arguments maybe your position isn't very good? Clearly a LOT of people have issue with this decision. Saying people shouldn't criticize it because qualified people had a hand in making it is equally insane. Was that supposed to be a dunk...?
If only there was a category that allows TOOLS that ASSIST you in SPEEDRUNS.
What a dream category that would be
Right? I think someone should start it. Sounds like a popular enough idea and it keeps the purists from going obsolete.
Pesthuf i see what ya did there 😂 that was a good one
@Raz MaTaz what you’re misunderstanding is that Pesthuf was actually shouting those words…so the capitalization was appropriate.
@@Luminethereploid okay give it to me straight, is this a reference to Dream using altered drop chances, which to an extent would be a tool assisted speedrun (if not just straight up cheating, even in a TAS catagory)?
The only way new tools should be allowed is if a new category is made for their use.
That's my thought. Sure, do the runs with tools if it's more fun for you. But I don't think they should be in the same leaderboards as those doing without. That's not fair to the people who do the calculations themselves.
When I finished the video that was my thoughts lead me to. I don’t speedrun, but play Minecraft. If you ask me it is like allowing steroids in the Olympics.
You literally cannot tell if someone is using it on another screen, thats why it does nothing to ban it other than handicapping honest runners.
@@RedstoneWizard1983 No F3 category and F3 with calculators
@@azerim2039 yes something like that.
I assure you, my protractor is very necessary for locating the stronghold. Please don’t ban it:(
Yep
My sextant is crucial to the run :(
POV: You are the center of a protractor.
You guys aren't using octants?
You've been quiet on here lately EZ... Miss you man, hope you're doing well, and may your protractor forever be 1 radian in circumference.
I personally would allow a non-programmable physical calculator, just cause I think it would be fun to watch them punch the numbers in
I'd prefer watching people do calculations on a sheet of paper
Separate categories for abacus and slide rule, is pencil and paper permitted (and the controversial issue of pre-sharpening pencils before the timer starts), counting on fingers only for the purists...
I think this would be fine too as they would lose time to the point where it's not worth it for higher level play. It makes it easier to get into, but without changing the ultimate goal.
@@Hosh1yami Make them crack out the ol' abacus
thats still a Tool Assisted Speedrun, just not the same tools your used to lol
This is a lot like the "broomgate" controversy in the sport of curling. I wonder if it will take the same path.
In 2009, a scientific paper finally proved what many players suspected: that the direction a player swept the ice could greatly affect the path of the rock depending on the type of broom head the players used. For about 5 years, there was a curling broom arms race, with some teams looking for any edge they could get. There were a group of high level players that outright refused to use the most effective broom heads, because they didn't like the fact that the new heads were so effective that once mediocre teams could make great shots if they had great sweepers.
There was a debate on what skills should be rewarded in high-level curling. Since the game's inception, shotmaking had been the most important skill, but in the span of a couple years, upper body strength and endurance became the most important trait a team could have. Eventually, seeing the degradation of the sport into a contest of brawn over finesse and brains, the World Curling Federation banned many broom heads outright and set even stricter rules for major competitions to reduce the effect of sweeping to pre broomgate days.
That's an interesting take but there is an important distinction to make between an olympic sport and minecraft speedrunning, which is much less popular or well known. All the mods are volunteers. They don't get paid like curling officials do, and they have so much work to do as it is with so many more people submitting speedruns that need to be watched and accepted. They simply don't have the ability to fully regulate speedrunning especially when it comes to programs or calculators that are extremely hard to detect.
Thank you for this comment. I love random facts like this and this one takes the cake as one of the most random of facts I have learned.
@@rainbow-kc8pw I don't think they have the ability to regulate this kind of thing regardless of how much time and effort they spend. The problem is that everything is predictable in Minecraft due to how it's made, and there's a ton of ways they can cheat the information off screen. If chat can feed a streamer info, so can a buddy in the same room, or a private message from someone watching the stream, or some other near.undetectable way.
And what happens if they crack down on chat feeding information? Sounds good on paper, until you realize chat can grief runs by just giving information to the streamer whether they want it or not.
Sweeping also makes Curling look like the dumbest sport of all time.
@@harbingerofwarx995 speedrunning (especially Minecraft speedrunning) is based on the honor system in the first place. It’s really easy to splice a run (I haven’t I swear) but people don’t do it because they have integrity so calculators would also be based off the honor system and it would still be fine. One of the cons listed in the google form vote for keeping calculators banned was it was based off the honor system which isn’t optimal. However if you have the guiltless mindset to use a banned frowned-upon resource and still (without guilt) submit it and receive validation for the run then you have the guiltless mindset to splice a run. The same system works. This still doesn’t account for chat spam so whatever also how would you be able to casually do the setup in a real run with it going under the radar ok bye
I'm okay with it, but it needs to have its own category, separate from the category where people don't use it.
In this way, everyone can do what they want, and we can watch the ones *we* want.
Yea!!! Options are always better. I honestly think that's what will end up happening. It sux that it's got to be the meta now for all the runs. We already have any % runs and TAS runs and that's where this belongs IMO
Calculator%
Just my thought
Especially since the vote to unban it appeared rather close, indicating that there would probably be sufficient interest to support both categories.
I kinda agree but it's not a perfect solution either as it divides the community between the calculator runners and the other runners. The separation isn't as big as the player vs TAS one but it's one to think about
If they're going to allow calculators, they need a new category then: Human TAS Any% for 1.9 or earlier, 1.10 - 1.16, and 1.17 or later. Just like so many speed runs have Glitched and Glitchless categories, or OOB and In Bounds, Minecraft could have a Human TAS tab. The rule is that the player must be physically active within the speed run, with no external program manipulating any movements, but are allowed to use third party tools to aid in calculations, without altering in-game calculations and game rules, to avoid the Dream Run controversy. If a player is demonstrated to have used a calculation tool or a spreadsheet even once during a run, then they do not qualify for a standard any% category. Since glitches are generally not supported in Minecraft speedruns as they can look very similar to modded speedruns, and do not always work across versions or platforms or even devices (thus an unfair advantage in speedrunning), a Human TAS category could allow extreme players to test the limits, like a glitch or OOB abuse run, without harming the efforts of standard runners on their leaderboards.
This would eliminate the need to even ask the questions, because the label will clearly show, this runner is just trying to run the game as fast as possible by any means necessary, rather than only using skills and instinct and functioning within the boundary of the game.
"If a player is demonstrated to have used a calculation tool or a spreadsheet even once during a run, then they do not qualify for a standard any% category"
No one tell them that most anti-calculator runners support using spreadsheets mid run and that if you're streaming there's nothing to stop your chat from calculating for you, there's also nothing to verify that you memorised the contents of a spreadsheet rather than just looking it up, how would verifiers know otherwise?
People should watch one of these "TAS" runs and judge for themselves instead of going by Karl's warped description of them and how little skill they have. Look at Crookste's 10:56 from a few days ago. The very vast majority of thinking on the spot is still done. Karl should also mention that perfect travel doesn't take 0 skill, some runners who did manual calculation (with aid of spreadsheet/table) didn't want to learn it because they weren't able to do it. Also check out 7rowl's 10:59 uploaded an hour ago. RSG runners are more talented than ever, it's a stupid time to try to diminish what they're doing, not a single person is "using a calculator because they suck and want to go faster without trying", this might apply to someone who doesn't have a sub 20 time if anyone
"this might apply to someone who doesn't have a sub 20 time if anyone" Yet that's the point isn't it? A ton of worse runners with slow blinds getting top times because external programs basically wipe out the time it takes to triangulate the stronghold. You can actually relate to that one since you literally blinded into the stronghold in your run, making you, someone with a previous 17 or 18 minute pb into the first sub 10. You're being pretty disingenuous when you tell someone to look at top runners' recent PBs, since they've displayed skill with and without external programs. The issue is with other runners, slower runners, who can now compete with these top times, not because of more skill, but because of way better endgames.
@@brentilda The point he is trying to make isn't that it removes all skill from the equation but gives a strong disadvantage to players that wish to play without spread sheets or calculators just how a speedruners with glitches can involve just as much skill if not more then glitchless speedruns but both are categories are commonly run and enjoyed. separating the runs into 2 categories would allow both types of speedruners to run the game in the way they find most enjoyable with out having their speedruns discounted
@@Otto_Von_Beansmarck How will we determine that someone isn't looking at a spreadsheet on another monitor or being told the values by someone? Manual triangulation for the last 8+ months has just been a game of memorising distances for x angle change, often with a tables/spreadsheet open even if just to double check that your memory is right. You could just claim that you remembered. Also, considering that most people voted to allow calculators, I think even more of them would vote to allow spreadsheets/tables. A split is ambiguous and a ton of work, will we get splits for purist, no-calc no-aid, no-calc aid, restricted calc (what we have), unlimited calc? How can you police that people are following criteria like no-calc no-spreadsheet? There is simply no feasible way.
@@PigeonFlare "They've displayed skill without external programs" Why do you think I mentioned them? They use calculators. The Couriway ad hominen "argument" of "you hit the blind" is pure nonsense because like I've said I am advocating for less RNG in end games. If I want to capitalise on the edge I've gotten from getting lucky, why would I advocate for that?And no, it won't make people without sub 20 times get top times any more than hitting the blind does. It's not so much that calc saves time, it's that it's reliable. The outcome we're interested in is hitting the stronghold, with (manual) calculated travel only do so much to maximise your chances and hitting the stronghold is partially luck, and the way in which it's done is indistinguishable from calculator or external aid.
When people started using spreadsheets, how was the question "should we unban calculators?" and not "should we ban spreadsheets?" Also it seems pretty easy to police if you ban both. Disqualify any run that copies the debug log to the clipboard. The game shows when it happens...
Disqualify any run that opens the debug log
@@t395delta desqualify any run that uses any F key
@@DNL-gr3kc Disqualify anyone that uses any 3rd party program to get an unfair advantage in any competition, period....We have a word for those type of things, 'trainers' 'hacks'...Cheats. And they're not allowed for competition or multiplayer games in general. I love a good cheat in a single player game where I'm just dicking around with spawnign 100 dragons in skyrim for the laughs. But its entirely different when its a competition or a multiplyer game that effects others. So the simple solution to keep things fair, and to not legitimize cheating in competition, is just disallow any 3rd party programs, and if you get caught.....Get dat ass banned.
If someone wanted to cheat with minecraft, they could always have an external application watch/actively read the log on a separate monitor and show the location of a stronghold once it has enough information *shrugs*. It's a difficult rule to enforce, not sure they should have given up on enforcing it though.
@@tien-le then you can make legal to use jetpacks in the olympic 100 metres because running 100 metres in under 10 seconds isn't exactly easy
I have no issues with the use of tools for a speedrun but they should definetely go into a TAS category or even a category of their own.
There can be 3 categories. TAS, Debug, and Pure...
That's why categories exist
can you explain how calculators would help a tas in any way? the majority of the community already voted for calc unban, nothings changing.
@@karatebaby6871 Calculators per definition is TAS, even if it's not say a bot that speedruns for you. TAS stands for Tool Assisted Speedrun, and a calculator is a tool
@@karatebaby6871 Weel, basically a TAS is a "Tool assisted speedrun" a calculator is a Tool not given by the game so it should (Imo) stand in a TAS category. The decision was to first ban it. The rule said : no calculators allowed but the spirit was : do not use anything else to help calculate the stronghold coordinates. People respected the rule but not its spirit so, after a vote, the calculators got unbanned. But the thing is, even if people voted to unban it, it's not like the spirit is still the same. Like he said in the video, what makes a speedrun great is the performance of a human being, not the greatness of the tool they used. It's like a sport and so using tools to help winning doesn't make it a greater performance.
It should definitely be it's own category. Hell, most games already have this category. It's called "tool-assisted"
I do agree with this but there needs to be something done about speedrunners asking their chat to do anything for them when speed running. It puts bigger streamers at a massive advantage.
A 5 minute stream delay should be mandatory for speedruns. Not sure though if this could be validated after a new WR? Comparing system time with stream time could probably just be rigged by setting your systems time 5 minute off i guess?
A simple review of the stream’s comments that contained the speedrun should solve any of those issues
@@chiefbologna5719 If you implement a rule against chat helping bad faith actors can do the input and kill a run when the streamer doesn't even want help though, no?
@@emojack
"15 MINUTE DELAY
AND THEN WHAT?
THEN WHAT?
I TALK TO MYSELF,
LIKE SOME CRAZY
COMPLETE IDIOT?
HEY GUYS THANKS FOR THE SUB MAN
OH OH YO OH WAIT,
OH YOU'RE,
YOU'RE TWELVE?
OH O YOU HAVE A BEARD NOW?
THAT'S FANTASTIC
DUD, DUD
THE,
THE VIEWERS WILL GROW UP,
HAVE CHILDREN,
GO TO COLLEGE,
GRADUATE,
GET MARRIED,
GET SIX KIDS,
DIE,
COME BACK TO LIFE,
GET REZZED,
THEN I'LL STILL FU
SHAAA
DU-DU"
- Felix Lengyel
@@simonvietjohansson8069 can easily avoid that by adding a delay on stream or they can even have his chat set to emote only for just that run. There's many, many ways around what youre talking about
They should setup a second webcam with a sheet of paper and a ti 84 where they calculate by hand imo.
They want to use a Ti84 in the middle of a potential world record speedrun? The use of tools that require manual input is fine by me because that's time loss for them. It's the fact that the inputs are not manual that makes this bad.
@@TheTrueBrawlerit’s a joke u nerd
TI-84 can be programmed lol
But s piece of paper and a pen are also tools. They are using tools. What if you are just better at math? That is not a game skill. What if you just have a better education? Then you make sure only wealthy people can compete. This makes no sense.
They should just make them separate categories so people who don’t like it can still hold WR and have fun
Duh.
I agree sort of like mario 64 where there is shortcut and non shortcut categories...have self triangulation and computer triangulation categories
Yeah they should make a category in which you can use Tools that Assist your Speedruns
Or they could just call it what it is, tool assisted lol
I mean, it inevitably already has splintered into two categories. I think the real question is which category gets the prestige of being any%?
I feel like this is an easy fix, break the runs into 2 different categories. The first is no pause, no f3, no tools. With the second being called tool assisted, and let people use all that stuff.
100% agree, woul have commented the same thing.
F3 should have it's own category.
Vanilla, F3, TAS.
Honestly I feel like F3 should be allowed as vanilla. Maybe an "Ultra Vanilla" category should disallow F3.
How, exactly, would you suggest the moderators go about policing this easy fix of yours?
Why f3 or pausing? Make a seperate category for people who want to beat Minecraft only using what is actually INSIDE the game.
At that point, why not just do /seed and have a tool tell you where the closest nether fortress, bastion, and stronghold are? It's ridiculous
cause the tool to set the seed extearnally is missing, as well as the insta winn
@@kskcp7243 It's only a matter of time before someone figures out how to reverse-engineer a seed from arbitrary data like initial terrain layout and so forth.
Once you open the door to external programs like the ones that can predict Stronghold locations from digging up random treasure chests, you will eventually get to the point where a couple of images of terrain can determine pretty much every element of a seed: locations of iron/obsidian/other goodies, location of bastions, etc.
It's not a slippery slope argument; it's inevitability.
@@GeneralBolas There are progammes to calculate the seed form the world e.g. mossy cobblestone in dungeons or fossils in the nether or caves or ravins...
@@GeneralBolas That already exists and he mentioned it in the video
@@wiirambo7437 that's not allowed, reverse engineering the seed is strictly against the rules
There should be two separate categories. One for no F3 + no calculators and one with F3 + calculators.
F3 already gives such a huge advantage with techniques such as E-raying to find bastions, quadrant checking, the dragon fight, and stronghold location it's wild that there isn't a separate category for F3 runs even before the recent unbanning of calculators.
F3 is a MASSIVE tool- more significantly game breaking than any of the calculators, it's just accepted because people put a lot of time into learning how to abuse it in increasingly creative ways, and it's "part of the game." You know what else is part of the game? Creative mode. And yet if you swapped into that, people would call hacks. Using F3 is also what made pausing problematic. There are PLENTY of skill elements left to separate the best runners without needing to rely on being able to best abuse f3 to find strongholds- runners can either play no f3, or play the fastest, least rng version of random seed available
Facts, also hey cub, awesome season of hermitcraft, hope the new year is treating you well
cubfan is so based
One problem with the "anti-F3" argument is that it ignores the fact that F3 is literally programmed into the game. In my opinion, F3 should be considered "normal", while no-F3 should be a specialty "extra hard" category.
the game already has 84 categories, just the random seed single player is separated in before version 1.9 the versions 1.9-1.15 and version 1.16+ also a separation between any% and glitchless any% oh, and there is also peaceful mode which has all the same, but no separation between 1.9-1.15 and 1.16+
Really well made video and we have a bunch of very similar thoughts. Great work Karl and thanks for making a video on this topic :)
Hello Couriway :) big fan of your work
Imo they should just make a new category for tool assisted run if people really want to use calculators, as putting them in the same category as runs with no tools is just unfair
By this video’s logic, any speedrun with a timer is also a TAS. After all, a timer is an external tool which gives helpful additional information to the player that is not available in the default game and significantly assists with the speedrunning process. I don’t see his point at all.
@@thesaroscycle_archive Now that I think about it, that makes a lot of sense. Timers give you valuable information about what pace you're on, and allows you to make decisions based off of that pace.
@@thesaroscycle_archive ratio
you have a point.. not a good one, but its something
I see nothing wrong with tools being allowed, but the run must thus specifically be identified as "Tool-Assisted".
thought about writing the same comment :D
Part of the problem is 'tool assisted' has adopted such a different definition over the years. TAS Minecraft already exists and is far different from simply using a triangulation calculator.
Maybe just "calculator" or "no calculator."
I think it should just be a different category
The entire thing can definitely be solved with creating two different Speedrun categories
I love when people are sponsored by Raid and mock it in a way that wouldn't necessarily disqualify them from being sponsored
That's really dishonest. You get paid to promote something, if you don't like it and are convinced it's a good product, then don't take the money and show your whole community something you don't yourself believe in.
@@DieEineMiezeI don’t think TH-camrs have any obligation to their viewers to only sponsor products that they genuinely support. Think about TV ads. Do you think that every TV channel supports all of the ads that they show? Are they passionate about all the products that they are promoting? Of course not, it’s just their way of making money. They don’t care. Neither should TH-camrs. If a TH-camr is sponsored by some game they don’t really care about like raid, it’s not dishonest for them to promote the game anyway. It’s not lying. It’s just advertising. It is not lying or tricking anyone or being dishonest at all.
For anyone interested in how the 17.5 block method works, it uses the small angle approximation of sin(theta) = theta where theta is the angle in radians.
By throwing your first eye then moving perpendicular to the throw 17.5 blocks, you draw a right triangle between the two points of your throw and the location of the stronghold. The side closest to you is 17.5 blocks long, and the difference between the two recorded angles is the furthest angle from you. From this you can use the definition sin(theta) = opposite/hypotenuse to get the length of the hypotenuse. If you try a few numbers in your calculator (with angles in radians) then you will quickly see that for small angles (~15 degrees or less) then sin(theta) is pretty close to theta, enough for a rough approximation.
Why does dividing by 1000 as stated in the video work? The angle in-game is represented as a bearing in degrees. To convert to radians we need to divide that by pi/180. Rewriting the above equation to hypotenuse = opposite/theta, we can plug in the known numbers (opposite = 17.5, theta = measured angle/(pi/180)) to get:
hypotenuse = (17.5*180/pi)/(measured angle in degrees).
Conveniently (or rather, why the length of 17.5 was chosen in the first place!), 17.5*180/pi is roughly 1000, so 1000/(measured angle in degrees) is a very good first approximation of the distance of the stronghold!
If the angle between the two eye tosses gets to big this approximation breaks down, but by imagining the triangle formed by the eyes and the stronghold you can intuit that the stronghold must be quite close by, so this method works even if the maths start to break down.
in a nutshell is that 17.5/sin(1°)=1002.727 which is basically 1k. so you can do 1k/angle change
why isnt there a leaderboard with no F3 or tools? seems like a simple fix to me
Additional leaderboards fragment the player base. If new boards were created each time there was a disagreement there would be literally hundreds of categories to track.
There isn't an official one, but I've seen an uprise in people playing hypervanilla (no f3 gamma 1) and it's genuinely fun to watch unlike the pause abuse or TAs runs
For real, it didn't make sense when I heard him talk about F3 being allowed.
@@morbideddie this isn’t a little disagreement though, it’s either tool assisted or not, that’s something that completely changes the game 100%
@@CHloE748 it’s not tool assisted in the typical sense of the term. And if we are using a broader definition that includes any tools then timers are also a form of tool that informs a run. There are loads of external tools runner use across several runs and those are generally accepted as non TAS.
Calculators save the runner doing some on the fly maths but most top runners would have chat do the maths anyway. The previous WR used a table to work out the ideal divine coordinates. This levels the playing field between runners with a large and small chat and doesn’t change the structure of the runs.
I’m still not a fan of it personally, but I don’t see why it’s a massive issue here and not with other games. And I don’t like the approach of just making new categories every time a new rule is debated. It is always suggested and almost always a bad idea.
I would love to see Random Seed, Glitchless, Real Time, No F3, No external help (tools or chat or motivational texts from mom) speedruns be a thing.
maybe we can allow motivational texts from mom
In game time is beacuse there becomes a hardware diffrence in the loading sections
@@StarComet7 you can always use real time and reduce it by loading times. I believe Brie wanted to avoid abusing pausing the game.
@@aquathird5918 The current timing method is adequate as it is. They do real time - loads - settings changes. I believe all other pauses are timed. Also, they only retime top runs, not every run, as it would take too long to do.
@@energy9802 I think you missed the point of my comment. Read the 2 comments above mine in this chain as well.
This is my thought too - it sounds like enough 'sus' things are allowed in this category now that a category split would be meaningful
The simplest solution is to have a category for each.
Dont use anything, "PURE" speedrun, and another that is essentially a TAS.
If you want a middle ground of a specific tool just for a particular reason, thats fine as well.
But dont mix the categories, as a leaderboard makes only sense if the people work under the same rule set, otherwise you compare apples to space ships.
"Don't mix the Categories"
Ala Diablo 3's ridiculous Randomly Generated Greater Rifting "Leaderboards". It's utterly and completely pointless because no two Greater Rifts have ever or will ever be identical, the point is to hunt and fish for specifically narrow possibilities for a "Faster" clear, while skill IS a factor, the fact of the matter is, every map is 100% procedurally generated and so no two races are the same.
Drives me crazy.
I thought most games already had a TAS category? weird that minecraft did not, and now they choose to combine rta and tas into 1? /S
You missed the issue of why they went with this decision - How will you prove that someone is using calculator when submiting "pure" speedrun? As long as he enters data manualy into it (for example on second computer with one hand while still moving in game with the other one) you would have no way to prove one way or the other.
The more extreme one pearl tactics notwithstanding, how will you differentiate between player who can do good triangulation with two pearls vs one who used calculator? In both cases their gameplay would look same. Unlike with cheaters with xray or who used non-random seed, where you can see them acting on knowledge they should not have, with this you would have no way to call one or the other cheater.
@@PyroclasticMind there not litterly combining the 2 categories and minecraft did have tas runs.
I fail to understand how people overlook the problem with this argument.
You clutter the leaderboards heavily when you make a category for each, when people get wrs on the different categories, the magic is lost and people just start arguing about whether to count it as the wr.
I'm not a speed runner, so I come to this very much with an outsider's viewpoint, but the introduction of console tools seems to be far more "tool assisted" than allowing someone to automate a bit of 2d trigonometry. Loads of people can do basic trigonometry and write computer programs but feeling your way to a location using only the thrown eyes looked far more like a computer game playing skill.
If I understand that correctly, this is not something that just does some 2D trig. This is (basically) a hot-key activated program that does the whole triangulation process for you. This is way more than pulling up the F3 console and crunching some numbers with a calculator on your desk.
I agree with this. If the F3 screen was a mod rather than a gameplay feature the moderation team would ban it immediately. No one would even question why it was banned, those that did would just be laughed at.
@@Jack-kx5rf By that logic they might as well just spawn in the ender dragon with console commands. It's in the game.
Console commands aren’t available when cheats aren’t on. The things in the video should be allowed - cheating is 1. Not following rules of the category, 2. Modification of the game, 3. Modification of inputs. This doesn’t fall under any of them. By that logic you could say reading twitch chat is getting external help and all runners should play in a sensory deprivation chamber
exactly, either allow F3 or not at all. A pro could screen scrape co-ordinates or type them into a calculator on another computer on another monitor. Plus, if you banned spreadsheets I'm sure people would have went to lengths like printing out precalculated lookup tables no much different than the trigonometric lookup tables in the back of grade 10 textbooks before calculators.
I love watching a good TAS just to see the craziness that is technically possible but beyond a human ability to pull off (at least reliably), but I also like to see the actual speedruns and how crazy good people get. I agree that this is just making every run a TAS, which ruins the point of a leaderboard.
This reminds me of something we've been talking about in the Metroid Dread community. There can be a lot of mashing to fire at a boss quickly, and there are people who want to allow turbo controllers. I'm probably a mid-speed masher, and I know that I lose a lot of time when I have to mash a lot, but I'm still adamantly against turbo controllers for it. Just like here, it's a skill that should be worked on, not fixed by a machine.
I honestly believe that just splitting the categories and having people be honest about what they're using is the solution.
@@hariman7727 There's been talk about that, and making a separate category, but there's such a stigma attached to turbo that they're afraid having a new category will scare people off. There are merits to both discussions, and the big talk is a capped turbo. Not so fast that it's an instant kill, but and slow enough that most people can mash at least as fast as the turbo.
I came here to say the same thing. While I agree that turbo shouldn't be used, at least with Dread there's the concern that high speed mashing could physically damage you (e.g. carpal tunnel).
@@SpaveFrostKing some people also just don't have the coordination to mash it's super fast speeds, which is why I honestly think a turbo allowed and a separate capped turbo category would be the best.
@@SpaveFrostKing I'm more concerned for my controller, lol.
I feel like this doesn't belong in speedrunning as I believe everything acheived in a speedrun should be kept in the game. ACE in majora's mask or OoT is acceptable because they are achieved by in-game methods, if they were instead achieved by just rigging the n64 to your computer then it would be different, this is no different.
but in that same breath they use calculators to solve for SRM, i don't think this is far off, just a more active use of it
@@xBeesafree the major difference is that majora and OoT all have planned routes since the game is the same every time, so calculator usage outside the run to plot a route is perfectly acceptable to me. however, in Minecraft, calculator usage during the run of a game where one of its main aspects is its randomness ruins the whole point of a Minecraft speedrun, if I were to say this in terms of any other speedrun it would be like getting halfway through the run, and hooking the console up to a TAS script for the other half.
@@xBeesafreeHowever for the case of SRM all of the calculation is done before the speedrun takes place. Many speedruns have point totals or very specific numbers that were calculated with outside tools before the run takes place. SRM angles and setups don't depend on rng that changes each run, and are all known before hand, meaning that while the run takes place, its just the runners knowledge and muscle memory.
However, something that I would equate to a similar level is the rng prediction tool for sploosh kaboom in wind waker.
@@FracturedStaffOfArmadyl but in the case of the spreadsheet, all the values ARE calculated before the run, granted you dont need to rreference the notes for SRM during the run. I 100% believe notes should be allowed. I do not support any type of external program that reads game data or plugin within minecraft. But notes should be allowed.
I think the use of external tools is fine, providing that the speedrunner has to manually input the data. Wind Waker his a minigame called Sploosh Kaboom that involves a ton of RNG, and an external solver tool is allowed because the speedrunner must manually input data into the program to make it work. I think the most problematic part of this Minecraft tool is that you can just copy the F3 screen to the clipboard and have the program read it automatically. I don't think that part should be allowed.
I think this really shows the issues I've had with Minecraft speedruns. I understand that things like movement patterns and other forms of RNG will always have an effect, but the entire run of Minecraft is based on RNG, where you spawn, Piglin trades, where the stronghold is, etc. It seems like the speedrunners are interested in overcoming the challenge of playing a different world every game, but then they methods which try to streamline and minimise the challenge that logically follows from playing such a format.
If you don't want to deal with the difficulties of random worlds, you can already run set seed.
I think tools become a problem when they're made for things that can be improved on by skill. You cant practice RNG like the wind waker battleship minigame. But you can practice finding strongholds without a calculator.
Yes, the wind waker battleship game is a perfect example why sometimes tools should be allowed
@@AniviaS But is is a perfect example that they should not be used. People just don't want to invest so much time learning the ins and outs of that game. That is just a cop out. No one would use that logic with minecraft seeds, but because the minigame is a small part of the game no one wants to invest time to learn it.
This tbh. Really good analogy. I mean, the battleship minigame is pure luck, you can't practice it. But stronghold finding? The way i see it, if you reach the point where you don't even need an eye of ender to find the stronghold anymore, then what's the point of searching for them in the first place? IMO, that's just a seed viewer with extra steps. Might as well allow those now that calculators are allowed. While we're at it, by that logic, you can probably use calculators to locate blaze spawners too. With this in mind, we might as well allow seed viewers for that purpose. At that point, the only real difference to set seed speedruns is that you don't know the seed right away.
@@RanEncounter The game is solved, everyone already knows the optimal strategy, it's just down to luck if you don't use the tool.
@@hoodedman6579It is not just down to luck. There are optimal strategies to picking the right square in each situation.
Also in that game there is literally a different cathegory to using the tool. That is the best option in my opinion.
I’ve always disagreed with allowing pauses. Make all MC speedruns RTA for starters, this would limit (or at least minimize) the effect of external resources.
The problem with pure RTA is then load times become a factor, meaning you need a really good computer to viably compete as well as introducing an element of psudorandomness. You need some way of cutting out loading screens.
@@Arttano Would be a shame if there was randomness in minecraft speedruns... Oh wait.
For random seed I think no pauses is fine.
Agreed. Brentilda had so much pause time to use a tool to help do divine travel. To me, this is basically cheating and while I do believe Brentilda is an excellent player, I have no respect for the methods or that run. Minecraft speedrunning has lost so much integrity in my mind.
To people whining about load times as an excuse, many other games cut out load times without allowing pauses, it’s pretty easy to distinguish, try harder.
@@uwu_senpai okay but like longer load times isnt random its based on hardware and making having better hardware a factor for better times makes it pay to win at least in part
No, it literally wouldn't. Ninb bot allows you to create very precise measurements on only a matter of seconds
"Well cheating is difficult to detect so we can't police it" is what I'm getting from this.
and to that my response is "mods r gae"
Says the same guys that wrote a whole mathematics paper on how and why dream cheated.
@@Briskeeen whats your point here? other than someone bothered putting in effort?
aka, an appeal to futility.
@@dylanc2806 They went all out in a huge paper about a popular streamer cheating, but chickened out at something as easy as forcing you to show your windows and monitors.
I feel like with the introduction of external tools like these should be broken into a new category as they do seem to take the spirit away from aspects of the run but are very interesting in their own way. So to keep both communities happy that could be an easy fix
As regards the calculator rule, I always thought it was a bit silly. After all, during a math heavy task, why shouldn't I pull out my trusty TI-84? However, seeing what is actually meant by "calculator" in this context, I agree wholeheartedly that they have no place in a legitimate competition.
Yeah. It's ok to use a calculator in a test, or any other tool to help you, but it would make no sense to make a math competition and then allow calculators to be used, because then the best mathematician will be the fastest typer, and anyone could do that.
@@morwitzz And even if you allow calculators, you put a limit on the computing power in that case (like only a TI-84 or less powerful for example) and don't allow running a super-computer powered solver...
Yea, I was initially thinking it was going to be inputting the numbers into a graphing calculator, and the problem being something like not being able to prove they didn't set things up in advance (like how you have to clear your calc before a test), but no, this is just straight up a conversion calculator.
If you are a dedicated speedrunner, you can learn to do anything a simple calculator can give you in your head with sufficient precision, and this remove ambiguity of being tool-assisted or not. There are a lot of situations where banning calculators is silly, but for speedrunning competition, it makes sense.
I was also thinking wouldn't be way slower to sit in place smashing a bunch of numbers in your calculator instead of just doing them in your head? Could be good for new runners to get used to the other mechanics but useless for the pros. But with that sort of calculation? out may as well just have a program reading RAM and telling you exactly what RNG you have.
As a programmer who's interested in speedrunning: I agree.
The clipboard usage is clearly a way of communicating between the game and the external tool without "direct" communication.
Realistically, that's no different from an autoclicker - or even a TAS, just pulling data instead of pushing it.
If external tools are allowed, players should have to manually enter data in. This at least adds a penalty
which skilled players might be able to avoid.
I agree... but i would go one step further. You have to open the calculator on the same screen and the game and the calculator cant be on screen at the same time.
@@thecalculatecavy2837 This
@@thecalculatecavy2837 Absolutely this
@@thecalculatecavy2837 And one more for the Algo
@@thecalculatecavy2837 This
The goal of speedrunning Minecraft over other games is to test and watch someone's quick-planning, routing and task optimization. With the addition of a calculator to maximize the first two, a piece of what makes watching and running enjoyable is lessened. It's nice to see when a world record is being lowered by the community, but a run being fun comes first.
Quick-planning, routing, and task optimization, all things almost every other game has. I get your point, but please use valid reasoning for it.
Edit: Alright, a lot of people have misunderstood me, and lot of people have come up with decent counter arguments. I was a bit naive in the fact that most games have "planning ahead of time" rather than "quick-planning" which is true. I was certainly not saying, however, using a calculator is good for speedrunning, I am heavily against what the speedrun mods are doing about that. Can none of you really see an objective fact without assuming the writer is on the opposite side? I wasn't arguing for calculators, I was simply stating a fact, misguided, perhaps, but a fact. That's all.
to be the devil's advocate for a moment, the watching of a speed run being fun is tertiary to the point. Watching say glitched doom 2016 runs, where they hop through levels at breakneck speed is fairly boring, (infact watching anything that isn't 100 percent glitchless imo in doom 2016 is pretty boring. This is why Byteme is one of my favorite speedrunners) But it's still valid to the point of speedrunning, finishing the game faster than someone else.
Some people are incredible at math, and others struggle with basic algerbra. I feel like this eases that discrepancy in which repetition doesn't overcome a learning disability. However, even trying to play the devil's advocate here, I can't come up with a single reason that the category shouldn't be split in to TAS and Tool-less.
@@ninenezumi well that just makes their point stand more doesnt it? If almost every game has those elements, it implies theyre an important part of speedrunning in general, so removing them ny using a calculatir just isnt a good idea really
@@ninenezumi "other games"
Then get a WR in those games. If you need a 3rd party software to beat a game then you suck at the game and don't deserve a world record.
Period.
@@ninenezumi These things are extraordinarily more previlant in MC. It's a sandbox game that's procedurally generated. You have to think "what am I going to do next" there are MANY MANY things that can randomly force you to take a different path. You have to route the run *as you're doing it* there is no second run on that seed. Only equally important thing to other games is task optimization. Depending on what items you have, you may need to adjust the task to optimize.
MC speedrunning is a speedrun about coming up with a plan and rewriting the plan in a moments notice.
Just to mention, there is at least one example where an external tool actually made a run better, which is windwaker 100% where now days a tool is used to predict the patterns for the minigame "sploosh kaboom" (a version of battleship).
But there is one difference. In windwaker the thing that was removed was a pure luck element, because runners could only blind guess and it was just rng if the run died or not. Also you need to input everything manually.
But the same principal doesn't apply here because 1. The thing that is removed from the run isn't rng but skill and 2. It isn't even done manually, which from my standpoint would compare if you (an console) don't modify the game but the console (turbo buttons, etc.) And I hope I don't need to tell you why those aren't legal anymore.
Rng is being “removed”, but the fact is that Minecraft is all about playing around the rng and making calculated decisions. The calculator removes the “calculated” part
@@burgerchild and as I said, in Minecraft there is no rng part being removed but a skill part
@@burgerchild actually it "improves" the calculated decision haha.
Don't worry I know what you meant, just sae an oppertunity for some wordplay
Another is in RE3, where there's a mod that makes the magnum a granade launcher, which basically eliminated the possibility that 50% of runs will die because the runner gets the mangum as opposed to the launche. This has been accepted by the community since all it does is replace the item with another, nothing more.
Totally agree about the Windwaker 100%. Also to note here about that. The RNG in Wind Waker ticks from the time the game is turned on. In Dragon Roost Dungeon (which happens before the Sploosh Kaboom game) the RNG ticks crazy fast because of all the particle physics calls happening. The tool only works if you have a decent estimate of your RNG value range when you hit Sploosh Kaboom, otherwise it is pretty useless. So even then, the Wind Waker tool only really works if the runner consistently executes all of the run (especially Dragon Roost) up till that point In the game. Makes a huge difference when no information is exported from the game to the tool and players have to manually enter.
I feel like they're going to need to make seperate categories for those wanting to use calculators or anything else to help them speedrun minecraft.
Im surprised that wasnt the default decision by the mods
@CLOV3R713 y'know, isn't there already a category for specific seeds? If you take the guesswork out of the game, then there's not really a difference between the two
@CLOV3R713 well yeah, there are the set seed categories and the random seed categories. the current set seed wr (for 1.16) is 1:56 by Rayoh
Tool Assisted is the only category that would fit.
Traditional vs. TA
@ExtraDash TAS means tool assisted speedrun, it seems you are the one who don't know what it means, these calculators are (tools) that are (assisting) players in their (speedruns), i don't get why people would be okay with any kind of tools used to speedrun a game, what is the point anymore.
I experimented with triangulation using these methods, and I have a few runs worth of statistics that can give you an idea of how precise these methods can be. I'll have to dig it up. IMO, there should be a "pure" category that does now allow external tools, or the F3 stuff, or whatever. Separate would allow assistance of any kind, in-game or otherwise.
My thoughts exactly. Just split the categories and put F3 with the other tools.
I don't really think F3 should be allowed, or at the very least there should be a no-F3 category (Hell, maybe there is - I don't ACTUALLY care, it's just something I think when I see these vids)
It kinda goes against the spirit of a run (in my opinion, ofc) to have all your statistics available in a way that would be invisible during 'normal' gameplay.
@@Ashfold_Eberesche the thing is f3 isent some external program,it's a perfectly vanilla game feature.i can see why its allowed,no real reason for it to be banned(you thinking it's lame doesent count as a proper reason).
@@zacharyadams3422 Oh, I know. Like I said, I don't REALLY care about it - I'm not in the MC community, and only ever think about it when these videos pop up. It's purely my subjective opinion that it's kinda against the spirit of the game.
I can definitely see why it's allowed too, and maybe if I had a 'horse in the race' so to speak, my opinion might be different. I've heard people say that F3 actually allows for the skill ceiling to be higher, and that's a fairly good argument (although external tools invalidate this, but obviously that's a separate issue)
I didn't really say it SHOULD be banned or anything. I mean, I guess you could read my post that way but it wasn't really the intention. I just have a preference, that's all.
@@Ashfold_Eberesche yeah,when it comes to opinions you do you,I ain't gonna Stab you for it.
i feel like the decision was made based on the context, like “if it’s legal to use spreadsheets should it be legal to use calculators” instead of “should tools be allowed during speed runs” but also i just watch these videos for fun so i’m not super knowledgeable on what’s happening
They should have just banned spread sheets too.
That was my impression aswell. Afterall you cant check if someone used a spreadsheet so I was guessing they allowed calculators in an effort to balance out the playing field.
@@tashfeenj8259 Yes im so fucking confused why they didnt just vote on that instead lmao
they probably didn't just ban it cause they for the simple fact of clearly people can just find loopholes around this technicality right? So wha'ts the point of trying to fight something if it's fundamentally impossible to ban or even police. What runners just made a bot that they could just watch my stream and it'll tell me where it is? Technically i'm not using a calculator or spreadsheets. Plus how do you know if people aren't using the calculator or spreadsheet? The problem is this is stuff that's just hard to police cause without basically patting down the runner and like having them show everything on their desktop (which is illegal in some countries cause that's invasion of privacy) there's no real way to know or say they aren't using one
@@lifeiaskedfor i dunno bro i jus said i watched these for fun😐
Why not split the leaderboard like theyve done a thousand times? A no F3 leaderboard, an F3 allowed leaderboard, and an F3 plus calculators leaderboard.
"Call it what it is, a tool assisted speed run". I love this idea!! We see this concept used WIDELY in the entire Speed Running community, i don't see what Minecraft should be any different when external tools are clearly being used.
@ExtraDash I think TAS by its most raw definition is a speedrun that uses any sort of tool to assist the runner, so these can be counted as TAS just like a vehicle can be a car or a plane. There are some TASs where doing precise save states and frame inputs are too difficult (look at L4D2 TASs for example). Not to mention, I feel like the distinction, although useful, might imply that ETSs are a more valid form of TAS. A TAS is a TAS, you can't say it's only half.
@@punishedkid It would be really dumb to have people that are just using calculators in the same category as actual TAS runs.
@@nuansd A new category that doesn't include runs using things like TRC or lotas could solve those issues, maybe something like ETAS (external tool assisted speedrun) as a category.
@@nuansd they're both TAS's though, just to different extents.
there have been TAS runs played in real-time in games like half-life using tools to aid the player, it doesn't have to be perfectly scripted inputs for every frame to be considered TAS
I think this is what will happen - tool-assisted runs will continue to exist, but the prestige category for Minecraft will just shift to "any% toolless" and WRs there will be the ones making headlines.
I feel like tools should be allowed in a case-by-case, game-by-game, tool-by-tool basis.
For example, the Sploosh-Kaboom tool for Wind Waker. In order to finish a 100% run, about 30-40 minutes in, you have to basically play battleship 3-4 times in a certain amount of shots. Runners hate Sploosh-Kaboom because it's pure RNG in a mostly skill-based run (not to mention it can use up a ton of Rupees needed for other things later in the run), and viewers might think it's boring to watch someone play single player battleship for 10+ minutes just to finish a run. A tool was developed that figures out what RNG step a player is on and can more or less tell what a given Sploosh-Kaboom board would be based on previous boards. A vote was made to allow the tool, and it passed. A boring 10 minute portion of the run can now be done in about 5.
In Minecraft's case, I personally don't think the tool should be allowed, or at the very least a category split should be made for use of the tool versus not being able to use it. Wind Waker's case is a 4+ hour 100% speedrun with the possibility of a run completely burning due to bad RNG, even if the prior 30 minutes were absolutely perfect. Minecraft is a 10-15 minute run where many attempts can be made in a few hours and adapting to RNG is a) *possible* and b) *part of the run.*
Doesn't even matter what game it is if people want to use a tool that's just a new category. If people don't want to use a tool then they're on a different category ,it's really not that hard to figure out
@@anonony9081 most of the people are talking about RSG
I think I agree with you. If its smth thats entirely rng in a long run? yes it should be allowed. With minecraft this is just a skill thing I think and it shouldnt
Many attempts in and hour is still like one good run that gets to the nether then terrible stronghold and go again.
While I mostly agree with you and I don't like the use of these calculators, hell I don't even like the use of the debug screen (as someone from outside the community tho). It was said in the video that this was decided by a vote just as well. This is not an arbitrary decision by the mods, it was chosen by the community.
I think tools should allowed but in their own separate category. I'm something of a purist and don't like people trying to use anything but their own two hands to achieve their times. If someone wants to use a tool that's fine. I just think those should have their own categories like many other games have. Allowing for tools to be used in runs without separating them from runs that don't is kind of a slap in the face of the runners who worked their asses off practicing strategies, perfecting travel efficiency, optimizing menu navigation etc... Imagine if the tilted cart strat or the disassembled second controller trick were allowed in Goldeneye speedrunning. It would shit on everything all the runners worked for years to accomplish. All the WRs that took years to achieve would cease to be the amazing feats that they are. I mean Karl if you read this think about how shitty it would feel if they started to allow those tricks again and all your records would go from being awesome feats of skill and practice to looking like what records from pre look down look like today.
All of the top runs are invalidated every single time a new time save is discovered, whether the time save uses a calculator or not. That possibility is something that speedrunners accept when they run a game, and they're usually happy to have their run made obsolete if a huge new time save is found. Having runs invalidated isn't an argument at all, it happens literally every day in speedrunning.
@@josephblattert6311 I think their point is that the run isn't being invalidated by a new discovery or skill, it's being made obsolete by assets that's the previous runner's most likely were well aware existed, and definitely were capable of using, they just weren't allowed to, we have separate speedrunning catagories for a reason, it is completely out of a person's control if modifications are made to the game or what rules are set in place for running that game on a competitive forum, even lesser speedrun games like the dark souls series have several catagories for this reason, in ds3 speedrunning they have both a current patch catagory and an any patch catagory since several game breaking glitches have been patched out of the game, a person has no chance of beating the world record on current patch since you can't skip half the game, so we have a separate category for it
@@peristeronic37 Are you just saying "it's not fair to the old records"?
@@shorthanyfantano6944 kind of but not really, I'm saying it's unfair to the old type of runs, they could very easily make it it's own catagory since it operates under different rules and principles but they just aren't, the way I see it it's like if they suddenly added bikes and cars to the 100m sprint
@@shorthanyfantano6944 like I personally think TAS runs are awesome and allow a different unique experience than normal speedruns, as well as helping show what is or isn't theoretically possible when a game gets runned to that point, but it just isn't the same thing, because it requires a very different skill set, take super mario for instance, it's also not like things like this make running more accessible, if anything it makes it less accessible because it creates an ever growing list of things you need to have downloaded in order to keep up
Next up: Minecraft speed running unbans bots navigating for you!?
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I feel like this was an inevitability after allowing the f3 debug menu.
but F3 only gives you the information, you still have to do the mental data processing yourself
I agree it should be strictly game information, not debug values. You're not skilled in the game calculating values, you're just good at Math.
@@ishopeatsea Bro information is the most valuable thing in speedrunning
I agree. While i think this decision now is bad - to me its not a huge turning point but rather a logical follow up to the decision to allow F3. The moment this information was available for the player it was obvious that people would maximize the use of it. And as soon as you need skills that have no connection to the game you loose all ways to properly monitor and regulate it.
Best thing would be if people go to a "no F3" category as the main speedrun and the current ruleset is put up as a kind of semi-TAS.
I'm against the use of tools, also I'd like pausing to be prevented during the runs to prevent all these calculations. As mentioned in the video: using tools will take away the skill involved from being skilled at the game to being skilled at using these tools fast enough.
I think pausing is fine but it can't stop the timer
Is Minecraft timing based on IGT or real time?
@@samallard93 IGT but it’s complex. Certain pauses are counted towards the IGT
@@dylanc2806 that might be the first step to solve this problem. I'd agree with this as a basic solution, then monitor players and community opinion.
I mean, doesn't fighting the dragon and getting enough eyes to get there and all that take skill as well?
Don't get me wrong, trigonometry takes skill. But, and I admit that I'm a complete outsider to Minecraft speedrunning, is doing maths an interesting skill to see as a viewer?
The tool doesn’t make it more fun, it doesn’t make the runs more interesting and it doesn’t increase the skill required. It just makes it easier, not in an intelligent interesting way it’s just easier. I guess you could make the argument it makes it more accessible but is that worth the overall reduction in challenge and skill.
Well put.
Speedruninng is all about reaction timing and your own knowledge. Having Minecraft wiki near me will make it easier
@@alkaupadhyay7650 But then you have to keep looking over to check the info on it(whether it's on another screen or another tab) and that will slow you down.
When you first said calculator, I immediately thought of those TI-30X calculators we used in school. To me that type of calculator is really just an extension of pen and paper since we were taught how to do everything those calculators could do by hand. I feel like pen and paper are an obvious "tool" for any speed run and I guess by extension a hand held calculator. Maybe for me the line in the sand is "human input" for the calculations, since the tools shown in the video pretty clearly require little to no understanding on the runner's part of the calculations going on behind the scenes. The way the end of the video was worded, it seemed to imply things like pen and paper ought to invalidate a run since a runner could "just remember better" as a skill. Maybe for the hardcore purists that's an actual take. Food for thought.
Maybe the rule could be that the calculator should either be non-programmable or in exam mode.
"tools shown in the video pretty clearly require little to no understanding on the runner's part of the calculations going on behind the scenes" Sure like u know how calculator calculate thing like sin cos tan log. When using hand calculator like this, you sure know how those thing are calculated right?
@@khiemgom That is not his point, unnecessary...
I agree, i think paper and pen, or some external tool are fine. You have to have the game knowledge and the math knowledge... A software designed to do everything for you isn't far from a cheating software, like a bot...
@@sophiacristina but still not knowing how a piece of software works doesnt mean using it is cheating
Remember when Karl warned of this outcome a year ago
I love how speedrunners responded to the banning of calculators by just making massive log tables.
In all sincerity, this was an inevitable result of allowing the F3 screen. Either ban both, or ban neither.
Idk, I think allowing the f3 screen actually raises the skill ceiling. More data to look through that CAN give you an advantage, but you have to do those calculations by yourself on the fly. External tools of almost any kind lower the skill ceiling. I'm all for raising the skill ceiling on games. Let the best players do even better if they put in more work. I think lowering it in any capacity unless absolutely necessary is a great way to kill a speedrun game/category. Now that external tools are explicitly allowed, who knows what kind of programs the genius runners/programmers in the community will come up with.
or just ban spreadsheets..
@@Lodus_beatbox literally how do you ban spreadsheets
@@Lodus_beatbox rules not only have to make sense (which your idea clearly does) but need to be enforced. If speedruns where made on a stage live infront of judges this would be possible, but to verify a speedrun all you can use is the data from the players system.
So there is no way to distinguish between calculating fast in your head or having the spreadsheet available. To me there is only one solution: dont ban the use of the information, ban obtaining the information (F3)
@@PEOJII wdym, its pretty damn obvious when they open f3 press a few buttons and the coordinates for the stronghold are just there.
I can understand how these calculations would be incredibly unfun for many, but without question this should be limited to a specific category of runs.
Most people voted to allow calculators so for most it would not be unfun only for some
@Jailsongmc_ 01_ Calculations, not calculators. Calculators are tools that assist you by doing the (unfun) calculations for you. That by definition has always been a seperate category in speedrunning.
@@johnathanbennett5908 Fast thinkers will always have an advantage though
@@doobster3650 It's called communism and it is an extremely dark religion.
@@johnathanbennett5908 Hey man, read less Karl Marx
At the beginning of the video, regarding external programs, Karl says, “Gone are the days where you would actually need to use your brain.” Lol then says, “I will also share my opinion at the end.” Hmmm I wonder what his opinion is about these tool assisted runs 😆.
Honestly, I'm a bit old school and I think the debugging screen has already made it in many respects a TAS by letting you peak behind the scenes to get data you can't organic get by playing the game naturally. The fact that external calculators are allowed doesn't feel like that big of a leap to me as a result. But no, I don't think tools should be allowed.
I mean, the debug screen is available in any fresh installation of the game without even enabling it in a settings menu, it is completely available to anyone at any time.
@@dablux3892 yes, but it's called a debug for a reason. It's showing you behind the scenes information that you couldn't get naturally, i.e. through not accessing debugging features. It's a tool that is assisting your speed run.
The debug screen isn't an external tool however, and actually helps in speedrunning this extremely luck-based game. And a player would still need to have a certain kind of skill to properly process the data it gives you. I say it's a fair trade.
With calculators, requiring the player's skill to process that data would be taken away entirely. Not a fair trade.
@@beauvoirferril It's not being skilled at the game, it's being proficient at maths. What would be your argument if stronghold infos were directly fed to the player in the billion info on the debug menu?
@@beauvoirferril So is the pause menu, it was a feature built right into the game, and you'd still need a certain kind of skill to properly process the information to get a fast run, but pausing breaks the intent of the run (Which is why I personally think a run should be counted from the moment the seed is loaded external to the game). If you want a unique category for pauses and debug menus I have no problem with that, but personally I don't find it interesting to watch a run where half the screen is taken up with debug information and I think it cheapens the overall talent required to get fast times. The fact that it's built in doesn't change the fact that accessing it takes you out of natural game play and into debug mode play.
At what point are runners going to take the seed and input it into a program to "calculate" the exact X,Y,Z of the stronghold and overlay arrows on the map of exactly where to go? What if they automatically analyzed each world based on the seed and overlayed arrows pointing to the best chests, bastion location, most optimal paths, or straight up said "seed not runnable" saving the runner time? Allowing any form of tool I think opens up a can of worms. Have a separate category.
Everything that calculates a seed or similar is forbidden
@@1.0 And until now, so was the calculator tools. The point is that they're opening a door that should have stayed closed.
@@1.0 How is the tool at 18:04 any different than taking the seed and inserting it into a program that is "forbidden"? IMO The moment you are no longer doing math in your head, you have crossed that line. Doesn't matter if a tool/spreadsheet specifically uses the seed or not, if it accomplishes the same goal as using the seed, its the same thing. Not saying it should be against the rules altogether, just to make it a separate category.
This is a slippery slope fallacy. There will be no point when this is allowed.
‘Doesn't matter if a tool/spreadsheet specifically uses the seed or not, if it accomplishes the same goal as using the seed, its the same thing.’ - of course it does. In one case you’re relying on reverse-engineering the game code and internal algorithms of the game, in the other you’re using observable in-game behaviour which is explained in game’s lore (such as it is).
@@mina86 the slipper slope is not a fallacy when you're figuratively slipping down the damn slope...
I thought this was going to be justified by the idea that some "objectively bad runs" are saved and become contenders entirely based on Stronghold location luck, or "great runs" ruined for similar reasons. Color me surprised to find out that they're unbanning a tool not because it cleans up a huge RNG component, but rather, because they're not interested in enforcing it and just decided that "everyone is working around it anyway."
Imagine if other rules in other competitions were dropped just because big players were circumventing them in one way or another. "We don't need the no steroid rules because the guys juicing up are just submitting someone else's samples to avoid detection!" It's just bad precedent, as you stated, and now more tools are being made to make the old tools obsolete. The game is becoming a race to see who can make the faster calculator instead of who can play with more precision, speed, and yes, even luck.
As someone with dyscalculia whose brain just does not compute numbers in a normal way, I am conflicted. I see the arguments and I 100% agree, but I also see an effort to create a chance for equality by giving everyone the same chance in getting a speedrun record. Should be a brand new category though. It IS not the same, it IS a TAS.
I wish something like that would have been part of the reasons calculators were unbanned. I don't speedrun the game, but I'm not happy with the moderators' decision.
I'm pretty sure that was consideration for unbanning calculators, people had brought that up before, but mostly people didn't like that mental math in general was becoming a more important skill.
Calling it a TAS is just inaccurate imo. Sure a tool is assisting your speedrun, but doesn't the timer also do that? There are also plenty of other tools like in AA for tracking which advancements you have done. The definition of a TAS is very specific, because the calculator does not perform any inputs for you, it's not considered a TAS. Karl just decided to misuse the term for some reason
As someone who has spent countless hours speedrunning a game, I can’t imagine letting something like this ever be legal. If anyone even suggested this to me as a moderator/runner, I would almost be offended tbh. I get it, it’s hard to do this stuff on the fly and the randomness is annoying, but if it’s so annoying just run a different game or category. Don’t ruin the integrity of the leaderboard or game. I’m disappointed by this news, and I hope it’ll be changed in the future
To me it depends on the tool, obviously if runners don't even need eyes to make it to the end, the game is basically pointless. But also the randomness of the old way is unrealted to skill. I think if there were only certain tools allowed, they could remove some randomness without ruining the integrity of the runs. Tools are fine until they play the game for you, just need to strike a good balance.
If you spent all your time speedrunning minecraft instead of whatever game you’re talking about, then you would understand why minecraft unbanned calculators. Don’t make uninformed opinions
@@Shnenanigans Uninformed? I've tried my best to keep up with the minecraft stuff for a while and I can tell you that decreasing the necessary skill level didn't make the category any better or give it any more integrity. Explain to me how a tool assist would make this any better as a speedgame. It doesn't, maybe it makes it more enjoyable for some people to run, but it hurts the game
@@tastydirtydan988 I agree that there can be a balance in specific cases, but I also think that when it removes a skill needed to complete a run quickly, it goes over that line
The vote was not made becase "the randomness is annoying", it was made becase there were tools that were technically allowed, but did not fall under the spirit of the rules. It was the speedrunners who decided this rule, not you
I feel there are edge cases where external tools make the run more interesting or remove arbitrary RNG that would otherwise cause excessive resets in otherwise flawless runs.
Not sure that this qualifies under that, though. Finding the stronghold seems like a major part of the run, not an arbitrary bit of RNG, and there's gameplay elements already in place to help.
What this makes me think of is the ruling about allowing the RNG search for the Squid Hunt minigame in Wind Waker 100%. This is technically a tool. However, NOBODY liked doing Squid Hunt because it was so easy to never have enough information to successfully finish it on even a few passes, so the game could take anywhere from 5 to 30 minutes. That's ridiculous! Also, the game had a few million possible states, and just trying best battleship style probabilities wasn't THAT much better. So what they did was, someone built a tool that would figure out where in the RNG you were when you got to the game (rough estimate based on your current time, which would be +- a few thousand values. You play the game once, you figure out which precise value WAS called for that game, then play it again. Now you only have less than a hundred possibilities for which board your rolled, and it only takes 4-5 shots to narrow the possibility grid down to one, and so you get to finish the game in a much more consistent amount of time.
The ruling the Wind Waker community made was that this tool was allowed, because everyone wanted it, but you were NOT allowed to have the script run automatically. You HAD to punch in your values manually, same as you would for having any lookup tables or other cheat sheets offscreen. I think this is fine, because speedruns have always allowed cheat sheets. You are allowed timers for "guess how much time has passed" minigames, and this is really just a more complex version of that. But the main thing here is that the community wanted it--it made an unfun part of the game into something that both saves time, is more consistent, and is about the same level of player involvement.
IMO, the place where minecraft is falling short here is that they're allowing people to copy-paste directly from the debug menu into an outside program. Otherwise, this IS just an evolution of strategy, given that they debug menu's been allowed for so long. At the very least, people should be required to run the calculator entirely separately from the game, such as on a different computer, phone or tablet. I think that would be the most fair option.
EDIT: to note that even in this case the "most fair" option doesn't necessarily mean a GOOD option, since in this case it's not removing an unpredictable side quest, it's just taking out a large chunk of the skill that used to be there. It's just been optimized now and I'm not sure how to otherwise fix that, other than banning the debug menu again or something.
if we wanted no RNG there would be no random seed category
Isn’t the entire Minecraft speedrun already based on RNG?
@@rickpgriffin This is exactly what I thought of when the whole idea of the Minecraft speedrun being a TAS now was brought up. That minigame in Wind Waker is just agonizing to watch, play and sit through from both sides of the speedrun. Finding the Stronghold is such an integral part of the Minecraft speedrun that it might as well be automating a quarter of the run versus removing ridiculous RNG from multi-hour 100% WW run.
@@IggyHitokage That's the other thing. I wonder if at this point the genie's out of the bottle, and the fun has been optimized out of (a quarter of) the run. Because if it isn't this, it WOULD just be the spreadsheet lookup tables.
Nice to know that the advice of our school of never having calculators on us at all times is once again disproven.
It being in Minecraft speedrunning is a nice bonus.
Thats the thing: our calculators dont do the entire job, you still need to know how to do it, theirs are probably programmed to do it, since they arent in math class so why waste time?
in my school we should always have calculators on us
Learning how to do math is an essential skill I stead of relying on a computer 😔
@@stonksrus I have a thing in my hand right now, it's called a smartphone and it has a calculator. I can add and subtract in my head as well as do full figures on tax when buying stuff but I'm pretty bad at fractions and division. We literally always have a calculator on us now and math teachers keep saying the same lie of us not having one. And in a job where it's math intensive we have calculators always.
@@ralcogaming7674 the point of not using calculators in education is to teach you the fundamentals of arithmetic and other more complex types of math (more advanced calculators have extremely cool features that solve very complex equations and forms). At your job, you need to get a job done. So nobody cares how you get to it. But in school, where you are supposed to learn stuff, it is good practice to teach you to be able to do math without a calculator. It will also make you a better calculator user because you will know what needs to be done and roughly how it works. Programmers go through the same ordeal. You study a programming language and use it in what is called "vanilla form" and then after you got the fundamentals, you can start using more advanced tools that save you programming time and you can install libraries and modules and import code from other places to save time. You could develop everything yourself, but it wouldn't improve your skills much, it will just cost time. So just like math, first you learn to do it and then in practice you can start using tools to assist you since production is more important than the purity of the craft because nobody cares.
Speedrunning is a sport. In sports being a puritan is part of the point of it. It's a measurement of skill and perseverance. There is not product you need to ship to a client with a deadline. There are math competitions with rules that don't allow calculators and you need to memorize a lot of mathematical tricks to figure things out. That's the point of competition. If schools allow you to use calculators from young age, it's really bad. It will make you much weaker in a world that more and more requires math (mainly in the digital world). It's a transferable skill. It's similar to writing and typing. You are taught to write first because if you know how to write, you can quickly transition to typing. But if you learn to type, it's really hard then to learn how to write. Typing is a tool for writing just like a calculator is a tool for arithmetic (and other math related stuff). You learn the fundamentals and then use tools that help you do more advanced stuff or just to the fundamentals faster. There is a reason for that order, and if you don't respect it, well, I've got nothing to say to you.
Schools in that respect are doing the right thing. Don't use calculators in math when you are learning math (late highschool is fine if it's for various arithmetic nonsense cause by that time you should've practiced enough).
I agree that allowing calculators for this is absurd, its like allowing students to use their phones on an exam. It completely takes the point out of it.
In my opinion if you work it out on pen and paper than it's fine but using a literal program to do it is just really dumb
Bro ots a mc speedrun not a math test. A speedrun should test a players skill, not their education.
@@drmusa1003 I'm using the concept of substitution to point out how stupid it is. It's not meant to be taken literally
It seems like the whole issue could be so easily solved by creating different categories and letting the community decide which category they like the most. The continuous changes of rules makes older runs incomparable with the new ones. A situation where some runners use tools and others don't (or don't want to) is the worst possible outcome.
If massive game breaking glitches found early in a game's life can kill hype, I can only imagine how bad tool assisted speed runs that are not proper TAS will kill interest. Removing the human element without replacing it with dedication like those seen in proper TAS just removes the fun.
The League of Their Own quote really sums it up perfectly.
'Of course it's hard, otherwise everyone would be able to do it, that's what makes it special'
I always find massive glitches while facinating boring speedruns. Even if the game is old. This is specifically about oot, like I forget the glitches name I'm sorry but finding it etc all that is really cool but seeing it in use kinda blah.
idk where I was going with that but like I agree its taking away smth I think allowing this because its just gonna allow more until its just.. bad.
Well this is the glitchless category and looking at a spreadsheet isn't a glitch. Also the human element in finding a stronghold is based on luck and very easy. Not really a cool element such as bastion raiding and one cycling for example.
@@unwono Please read my comment before responding
@@iimuffinsaur Nice thing about OoT is it already established its self before a lot of more recent glitches. It will get a lot of neat categories, similar to SM64.
Meanwhile DOOM Eternal will likely only see glitchless or all glitches
In my view, this is just the natural consequence of allowing the debug menu. Once you allow what is essentially an in-game tool-assist, it becomes a lot harder to draw the line somewhere else.
Playing minecraft without f3 would be kind of weird since you use it in normal gameplay anyways. Playing normally OR running without f3 would basically be a challenge run.
@@theopendoorev But then again. Like Tom Hanks said: It's supposed to be hard.
@@theopendoorev for any kind of game, I've never used the debug menu except when I was cheating or playing with mods
@@theopendoorev literally played Minecraft my entire life without the debug menu.
Minecraft debug menu feels very different from the debug menu in essentially any other game
i guess minecraft players consider math a superfluous skill not needed to differentiate the best players from the worst players.
Even allowing the use of F3 has always seemed baffling to me. It's one thing to allow glitches, those might be unintentional, but at the end of the day they arise from the actual gameplay mechanics and are arguably just a part of them. F3 isn't really a gameplay mechanic though, it's a debugging tool. Allowing it to be used is analogous to allowing the use of console commands or cheat codes. I think if a guy just used the console to fly to the end in a game like Skyrim pretty much everyone would consider that cheating. Obviously F3 doesn't have as dramatic an effect, but I still consider it cheating since like noclip, it's a developer tool rather than a real mechanic.
That said there's nothing wrong with allowing some forms of cheating if it makes for a more interesting competition. I guess it just bothers me when it's unacknowledged, like if the category is labelled any%. I guess they couldn't call it something like any% cheats allowed, since it would inevitably be taken as a value judgement even if it wasn't intended as such, but if things like developer tools or external programs are used I really think that should be acknowledged somewhere in the name of the category.
Totally agree. The leader boards do note whether people use F3 or not and some runners don't use it but the vast majority do. I wish F3less was more prevalent but the majority of players use it even playing casually so it has become an accepted part of the game. I am in the minority of Minecraft players in that I have always considered using F3 as cheating and could never understand why it didn't have less info by default and allow co-ordinates only if cheats were enabled(there are ways to remove co-ordinates but they are hidden away in the settings). I find it much less interesting but people will use whatever is easier.
Don't take this as an offense or anything, but you probably don't play Minecraft, F3 is basically a feature by this point and will never be removed. I'd say 90% or even more of the community consider it a quality of life tool more than anything else.
Allowing F3 in a game with an Ender Pearl mechanic means that precise mathematical triangulation was inevitable. Mods should've had the foresight to ban F3 usage, or at least restrict F3 to a separate category. Something like the hop-four-times-to-the-side trick that Karl demonstrated seems like the perfect blend of applying outside trigonometry while also relying on player skill and execution.
I feel like there's plenty of other games/categories out there that would get crusty if they had and allowed similar debug tools to be legal in speedrunning.
@@subzerosanijs yeah F3 is heavily used in any type of technical play from farms to grinders to chunk loaders to messing with light levels. Use of F3 is far from cheating it's a basic feature that is intentionally updated for users to use just like other features.
Absolutely agree. I've loved watching speedruns for many years but have never watched Minecraft runs. I clicked this vid because Karl's content is interesting. I was instantly flabbergasted to learn what the F3 function was and that it was actually deemed acceptable in a normal Any% speedrun! To me, the addition of unbanning calculators was just icing on an already questionable cake. I'm not trying to take anything away from anyone. Just make separate categories, and everyone can run the game how they prefer while still remaining competitive within those categories.
18:38
Regarding the Twitch chat "helping" runners, it's a common thing in Factorio Speedrun community, maybe because it's more relaxed this way, or maybe because the amount of focus for speedrunning this game is daunting, anyway it's probably way different than Minecraft viewers running the calculators themselves, most of the time it's to help the runner fix some error he missed that could ruin the run half an hour later...
I would compare this with the use of outside program in Wind Waker HD for the Sploosh Kaboom mini-game, but on a far more abusable scale.
The program used to pinpoint the RNG value of the game with Sploosh Kaboom boards is used in order to complete the mini-game with far less possible timeloss, but it is slower to use since you have to manually input board states in the program. It also is only there to prevent minutes of timeloss from randomness, but in a multiple hour speedrun.
The case of calculator for triangulation in Minecraft is not a thing to remove random timeloss, but to remove most of the calculation on the runner's part. The length of the speedrun being from 10 minutes to half an hour also makes it worse. You have a tool in game to figure out where the stronghold is, the calculation are doable in real-time (even simple approximations), but you remove all that for more consistant runs, and remove a big skill element at the end of the run.
As an outside viewer, I am definitely against the motion to allows calculators in Minecraft speedruns, but I can understand that this problem comes from the speedrun itself becoming so incredibly optimised.
I had the exact same thought. You could read the same text as the conclusion of the WW video, and every word would make sense, but it would be the opposite of what he said that time.
Actually it's worse, as the WW exploit identifies the random seed, which could also be done in Minecraft based on the blocks, in order to know everything about a world.
I find it funny that most people will never figure out Sploosh Kaboom. There is a strat to win every time without any outside tools.
@@lukeshoo If said strat existed is it documented anywhere? I'd love to be wrong but if there was a guaranteed win every time I'd imagine speed runners would have found it and been abusing it by now.
@@UnsavedTrash it's more like 90 to 99% of the time and it just involves spacing out your moves perfectly so you hit all areas of the board
@@lukeshoo Thats what runners did do before the tool and they would end up losing tons of time because it isn't nearly as accurate or successful as you think it is, especially when you need to go for the high score reward in 100%
I have a feeling this is the start of a slippery slope to just using chunkbase to find the strongholds, fortresses, and bastions and if needed towns.
The point of finding the stronghold is to use your game knowledge, and experience and understanding of the games mechanics to locate it. I don’t care what method they use, if you have the location literally given to you without any in game effort, then it is by definition assisted. Really feels like they missed the forest for the trees with this decision.
it was a voting of the comunity if im not mistaken. so we are the ones in the minority wanting it to be something the majority doesnt enjoy
@@rksworld4405 It takes the skill out of something heavily based on skill, it makes it far too easy.
Well put. 👍 Why Minecraft community thought that using a DEBUGGING TOOL (F3) in any form of competition was acceptable is beyond me. 🤦🏻♂️ All the other issues stem from this one baffling decision to allow players access to information that they were never intended to have. For TAS use whatever you like (hence the name “tool assisted”), but for non-TAS there should be NO tools allowed. There, problem(s) solved. Next. 🙃
@@rksworld4405 the kind of people who want to use software to improve their chances in-game are the same clowns that would make sockpuppets to brigade a vote.
@@GleeAllmighty Even the TASers wouldn't agree to it. We're about pushing the game to a theoretical fastest/most entertaining playthrough, we only want to use set seeds or premade maps and break them.
This would be an incredibly unoptimized LOTAD, not even TAS.
What has ultimately led to this issue is that the debug screen is allowed. Give an inch, they'll take a mile.
Disallowing the F3 menu isn't any solution, though. You can easily circumvent that problem with more tools.
the f3 menu gives you information, but you need a lot of skill to use that information. Calculators require basically no skill at all except getting the right angle.
It's like if other games would let you read their RNG tables while playing. It's the strangest thing to be allowed imo
@@luclon-vu7og Next they are going to say qhy cant we just use seed maps its just a tool
@@luclon-vu7og
I don't think he is suggesting banning F3
This isn't the first game I've heard use external tools for speedrunning, as Windwaker also allowed a tool for speeding up one of its minigames. The key difference between the cases, and why I think that calculators should not be allowed is that 1.) the section in Windwaker that was sped up was a 30-minute, mostly luck-based section with little math and 2.) the tool was fully external (no copy and pasting coordinates). I am more sympathetic to tools that make games more skilled-based and more watchable, not the other way around.
Pretty mmuch it's the same as step routes in the JRPGs. All it does is replace RNG with skill. Before they were made it was pure RNG who had the record, now there's actual skill as if you step off that route ONCE you're borked.
I think the timers used in pokemon speedruns to time frame perfect inputs is a good example too
I think the big difference is also just the percentage of "run deciding moments" this affects.
For Minecraft, it's literally next to all of them - You don't start a run without finding a village basically at spawn.
While a ruined portal is nice, it's not THAT big of a time loss to not have one, especially with bastions.
This means that your "big deciding factors" are... Pure RNG from Piglins, and finding the stronghold.
You're removing 50% of the run deciding factors, and the only one that required actual skill, knowledge, ability, game knowledge, game sense, w/e term you want to use.
Windwaker?
Is Sploosh Kaboom even 1% of a 100% run?
Yeah, full agree. Wind Waker's eliminated a boring, 100% RNG, and small part of an otherwise interesting run. Minecraft's tools *destroy* a key element of the run which promoted learning/training skills and lead to longer, more interesting runs in general.
Windwaker was the first thing I thought of as well.
The difference, for me, is that Windwaker's tool is used to bypass a singe random part of a non-random game. Minecraft on a random seed is all about randomness.
If people want a non-random experience, they should run set seeds.
(Great wall of text incoming)
As a speedrunner in a community that is no stranger to arguing fervently about rules, I think this situation is a little bit more complicated than you have portrayed it.
Ultimately, the people who make the decisions for the rules of Minecraft speedrunning should be the people who speedrun Minecraft, and if that's the way it currently is, that's their choice. Viewer enjoyment of a speedrun is definitely an important factor that should be taken into account, but it is not the only factor to be taken into account, or even the largest factor.
One thing that I have observed in my own speedrunning community is something I'll call "rule creep", where over the course of long time spans, more "modern" game rulings eventually become normalized, and then making even more things allowed seems reasonable (like first F3 screen, and then calculator tools). This can be hard to spot, as often viewers don't have the knowledge to understand fully what is going on in a speedrun, and the rules are usually made to enhance the player experience, so most runners will have no objections.
That being said, I think one of the most important factors in making rules for speedruns is the experience of the runner. If a rule makes a game more fun to run, then usually it would be a good rule. Of course, you can't start allowing noclip in every speedrun, but there is a point somewhere in between no rule changes and allowing noclip that is the optimal rule change. People will disagree about where this point is, and personally I lie on the side of traditionalism in speedrunning (less things allowed), but people differ greatly in opinion on this subject.
Regarding Minecraft specifically, I agree that allowing the stronghold calculator programs drastically changes the run, and when comparing it to a no-F3 style run, its almost completely different. But calling them tool assisted speedruns is misinformed at best, and disingenuous at worst - thats obviously only a TAS by name, and not what a real TAS is.
Making a new category for calculators allowed is also problematic, because you can't just create new categories for every rule change, because then there will be 80 different categories for every different rule, and while there may be a lot of minecraft runners, in my experience there is a limit to how many categories can be active at once, and that limit is small. Plus, you wouldn't want every runner to pick their category based on what rules they want to follow and then have no competition because there are 20 categories; they should all compete on the same boards with fair rules, whenever possible, unless there is a different version or a significantly different rule that players show genuine interest in running.
Category shaming aside, I think the solution many other commenter have pointed out about splitting into a "no-F3 category" and an "F3+calculators" category could be good, as those two categories are sufficiently different from each other, and a no F3 category could lead to new strategies, such as throwing eyes, moving while keeping the mouse still, then throwing eyes again and counting pixels to triangulate.
As a final thought, I just want to remind everyone that what the Minecraft speedrunning community does is their own business, and they will almost certainly do what is in their best interest, as they are the ones who know what it's like to actually run the game
Agreed, they should split the categories, in fact probably should have split them from the moment people started using the F3 window..
How many games already use external information to aid speed runs? So many games have been taken apart to determine the chance, or even the seeded chance of a given thing happening in so many games that lots of people know to throw out a run if they don't get good RNG on certain early events.
You can't, and shouldn't ban memorizing where to go an what to do in a game, as that's half or more of speed running, but you CAN'T memorize where to go in MC, as it's randomized, and the only tool you have to figure out where to go injects huge, late game RNG.
To compare it to something else, the Windwaker 100% guys have spent forever working out how to manipulate the RNG on sploosh kaboom and the auctions, that's no different than this, and was done for the same reasons, to help reduce late-game RNG.
Basically the argument here is, "Well, you should learn to do complex geometry, in your head, or else this major, late part of the run should basically be subject to RNG for you."
Geometry has almost nothing to do with playing Minecraft. I admit I don't much care about MC speed runs, but if I were watching, it wouldn't be to see how good the player is at estimating complex geometry in their head, or else how lucky they get on the random checks that their eyes break if they're bad at it. 🤷♂
@@Nevir202 well about that last point, geometry doesn't normally have much to do with Minecraft, but if it helps you go faster then it has everything to do with speedrunning minecraft. Speedruns inherently require bizzare and unique skills that are not normally required
I agree with making the distinction between F3 and no-F3, since F3 can be considered a debug tool or console/cheat access. making the distinction between "you can perform these kinds of calculations this way but not these other kinds of calculations this other way" makes no sense to me.
tru. but MC speedrunners must then reckon, that fewer people will watch their runs.
@@dontbeasadsoulja fair, but the point of speedrunning isn't really to get people to watch your runs; that's just a side effect. That being said, I can't actually nail down what the point of speedrunning is besides "go fast" but it's probably a little different for everyone, for some people it may be to make videos people will watch, idk
personally I already drew that line when the debug menu became popular. sure yeah its build into the game, but it's not part of the gameplay mechanics if you ask me. Using it to be better/faster at the game always felt off to me. Honestly, allowing calculators feels more in line with allowing debug information. I like neither.
On another note, what stops people from opening a new category? isn't that what speedrunners always do in these cases?
I think the problem with a new category is that there's no way to validate that a runner didn't use a calculater/spreadsheat/chat or something like that.
Came here to say that. I feel like when f3 was allowed it kinda opened the floodgates for things like this
Indeed, before I was on the fence about f3 but now I do feel that it would be for the best if it was banned. After all, commands are part of the game, and yet pressing Open to LAN > Allow Cheats: On during a speedrun is illegal. Subnautica for example has a separate console allowed category, which tends to end in under 2 seconds.
Yeah it's like using a debug screen on Earth, Minecraft is kind of like Earth with how it grinds the s*** out of you
a lot of things speedrunners use are not "part of the gameplay mechanics", just think of all the out of bound glitches...
Karl: "Gone are the days where you actually needed to use your brain"
Also Karl: "I'll also share my opinion at the end"
I feel like you already did...
That's what's called 'poisoning the well'. And this video is nothing but that from beginning to end. Calling for a discussion after such a primer is just a slap in the face.
@@meinacco it was actually so heavy-handed that I thought there was going to be a twist at the end where Karl was actually fine with the ruling and was just pretending to hold the opposite opinion, like when he started a video a bit ago with "this just in: speedrunning isn't fun".
There’s nothing I love more than a Karl Jobst video where you can feel his intense disapproval of something/someone bubbling underneath his signature monotone voice the entire time. It’s the definition of passive aggressive and I love it.
@@meinacco I get you, and your point is very valid now that I think about it, but Karl obviously feels extremely passionately about this. Speedrunning is his life and he sees the things in this video as ruining the spirit of it, even admitting in this video that he finds some of those things “offensive”. Karl isn’t able to fully contain his sarcasm, yes, but he still presents all of the pure facts that anybody would need to make an opinion against OR for this decision. So, I excuse it.
Besides, anybody who follows Karl’s content 100% knew that we would get his opinion and what it would be as soon as we started the video. He’s made his stance very clear in the past, don’t need an external tool to do the math on this one.
Yeah karl is very obviously biased but I dont think anyone watches him for down the middle information
Merry Christmas bro! Hope you and the family are doing well. Thanks for the upload.
The only comment we need this season
Math class: why am I learning this? I'll never use it?
Young teacher: looks like you'll never be a mine craft speedruner
Math teacher: _"you have to learn this, because it's not like you will be allowed to use calculator on every speedrun!"_
Speedrunners: 😏
They aren’t even learning, external tools are doing all the work for them
I think using F3 in itself is already pretty controversial and shouldn't be allowed in my opinion, using any form of external tool, even if it was just a simple calculator, is the cherry on top of it.
Definitely, once the F3 screen was allowed this sort of thing was inevitable.
As far as I'm concerned, using the debug screen also counts as tool-assisted. It's not part of the game itself, as it is a debugging tool. As soon as you start number crunching/ calculating is when the line is crossed.
F3 = noob runners
but pressing f3 is part of the game. Its not a debugging tool at all
@@theopendoorev eh. its the 'debug menu'
@@theopendoorev its freely available to anyone as soon as they install the game. You dont need to enable it anywhere, it is simply just a part of the game. Besides, bedrock edition displays the coordinates as a base feature, so why is using the debug menu in java to see the coordinates any different?
@@dablux3892 that’s exactly what I’m saying
The whole point of this specific category is that it's random/no pre-generated seed, yes?
The best way to handle it would be to create a separate category that allows the use of some limited tool/s to be able to find stronghold. But like you said, at that point it's basically an ongoing slope of 'where do you stop allowing tools?'. If you allow tools to find the stronghold, why not tools to find the nether fortress or bastions? or villages in the overworld? Why bother with a random seed at all, if you're just going to start allowing tools and methods to 'undo' some of the randomness? At some point, you may aswell be running a pre-generated seed.
But either way; it should really be a separate leader-board altogether to denote the differences in skill/execution.
rng-minimzation = set seed yea man AMAZING thought process
@@CtrlAltSpray Honestly that could have a place for speedrunning tournaments. Imagine all the big speedrunners sign up for a tournament. The players all load up their clients, start recording, and then the admins announce the seed for that particular run. Given how random minecraft speedrunning is, I'm surprised this hasn't become a thing yet.
How would external tools to find fortress villages (pepelaugh useless) and bastions work. WR holder Brentilda said it pretty well "Anyone who thinks like this should run the game for a little while and see if they don't drastically change their opinion. A no-f3 category is not a bad idea at all, the problem is no one wants to run it at a serious level because it's 100x more of an RNG fest. It's almost like this video is by and for people who don't have any clue about speedrunning this game, and the video doesn't give them any necessary context at all.
Another thing most viewers don't realize is that even the vast majority of anti-calculator people in the community support things that would be considered "tools", they mostly support the use of spreadsheets and tables which are just precalculations for you to look at after you get your angle change. Non-calculator triangulation doesn't require tremendous skill, doesn't have much skill gap and requires more luck. Even with no human error it's still luck if you hit the stronghold, unlike with calculator. The iron-man argument against calculators would be that "luck which can be influenced by skill is the name of the game, so make people triangulate manually". But I doubt you could also get people to vote out the use of tables/spreadsheets mid run, or have a split based on the usage of this. This is the core of the whole issue which this video doesn't even begin to touch.
Hopefully no one tells Karl or most of his viewers that RSG runners use multiple instances of the game with mods to make it run faster, generate worlds faster, and macros to do countless resetting inputs for you if you click once. I think that might be "tool assisted". It's almost like the boundaries we set are slightly arbitrary and 75% of top runners voted to arbitrarily allow calculators."
@@_mark_3814 Karl has been speedrunning MC for at least a year, and has nothing against F3 debug. It's almost as if you haven't watched any of his videos and came here just to disagree with him.
@@JMcAfreak I am in Karl's discord server and actively keep up with him. Saying he's been speedrunning MC for at least a year implies he has been doing it actively. He has not. He has been playing on the Legends SMP a bit I believe though. Just because I disagree with a creator doesn't mean I don't watch his videos. Calculators are primarily reducing luck and not skill at the top level. Top runs already have god blinds.
One would expect, with the abundance of new players, that the rules would be made, on the contrary, harder. I don't understand the decision either. It makes no sense to call non assisted, a tool assisted speedrun, even if only one tool is used. In minecraft, finding the stronghold is a real gameplay element, in which skill is important not to waste eyes. it's not like it's full luck finding it.
I'm down for splitting calc and non-calc times. While this is a barrier for entry, it's one that leads to this speedrun being as unique as it is. Good analysis, Jobst, as always.
If anything, I think Minecraft has a genuine issue with the fact that most seeds are doomed to be _very_ sub-optimal from the start. At best, you have to restart 20 times until you roll a good seed, and at worse, you find that the current seed is not good very late into the run.
Being able to triangulate the stronghold location is a skill, while having a fortress with no blaze spawners in it is a run automatically failed far before you even know it.
And for "casual speedrunners" this is even more prominent: while triangulation can save you a couple minutes which are crucial at the top level, having to restart a casual 30-minute speedrun because the current seed just happened to be bad is a far greater loss.
Yeah, the endurance needed to be patient enough to get a good seed AND run it well isn't a good test of actual skill.
Oh no how dare this children's game not be designed for sweaty losers to base their self worth on
@@CarbonRollerCaco there is reset efficiency which is a big part of mcsr
100% agree, brentilda's run was basically a segmented rsg run. True rsg runs half the point is that it is random and you have to react on the fly. The pause abuse removed that key element of the speedrun. As far as I am concerned we still have yet to see the first true sub 10 rsg run and if this calculator rule stands we may never see it happen.
Imagine running a category where the randomness of the seed is the point, trying to use tools to effectively eliminate the RNG of the seed when there is already a fixed seed category.
It feels like the real problem is f3 debug mode, though. Debug mode is already arguably a cheat, and one that gives information that can so easily be exploited. If you want to argue against the overuse of pausing, then you can't even justify debug use as being "part of the game". You might as well just have two groups, one for no abuses and one where all abuses are allowed. If you want a "pure" speedrun that has "meaning", don't use Debug either. If you want assists to boost your time, then you get Debug, calculators, pause abuse, and whatever other shortcuts the community wants to develop.
Yeah, maybe the solution here should be one category where debug is not allowed and one where it is. Just call it something neutral like debug-allowed or no-debug, and players will automatically sort themselves according to how they want the game to be played.
Thanks, that's exactly the issue I have with his position. He takes umbrage with calculators, spreadsheets, and pause-spam, but sees no problem with using the F3 menu - and I'm pretty sure an earlier video of his lauded SM64 runners for modifying their controller to get a specific angle easier (might've been ezscape though).
This sounds less like someone who is concerned about the integrity of speedrunning or whatever, and more like someone who just likes where the rules *are,* and doesn't want to adapt to change.
The difference is that pausing the game was stopping the timer. Using the F3 screen gives you a lot of information, but it still takes time for the player to read the information, understand it, and then figure out what to do with it. If you could look at the F3 screen and pause the game for 5 minutes to think about it, then we would have a problem. I don't remember what the solution to the pause abuse feature was (haven't seen the video in a while), but if the timer kept going through pause screens, I don't think anyone would have an issue with pausing the game to think about your next move. But really, using *external tools* and literally stopping the timer is way worse than using the information the game gives to you, especially when that information takes a lot of effort and knowledge in order to even be useful in the first place. I do agree that the uses of certain tools and techniques should be in a separate category though. I just wonder which one would end up being more popular.
I have a rather controversial mindset that the debug screen shouldn’t even be viewable in survival mode. There should in-game tools for cords, biome, light levels, etc… but I fully understand why this will probably never be the case.
It isnt that controversial. I dont like f3 either.
i will never understand why minecraft STILL lacks items that show your location better than a compass or a map
I agree, it should only be available with "cheats enabled" option.
There's more to the F3 screen than just that; it also shows information about Minecraft's performance (framerate and ram usage for example), current version, targeted block, targeted entity, etc
It's way more than just your location. To get rid of it entirely is a waste of something that is useful to basically everyone. While I agree that there should be more immersive methods of determining things like light level, getting rid of F3 in its entirety is not the way to do that. Not everyone speedruns, and as such, not everyone (more like no-one) will find that change welcome.
@@flux7945 well, there *was* going to be a more immersive method of determining light levels, but people didn't vote for it
Thanks mojang for having amazing ideas and erasing them from existence forever because one other idea just happened to be cooler.
A tool should always be an extension of ones own abilities. If the tool starts doing some of your own work for you then it is not okay. An accepted tool can for example be a better grip for a controller, or a mouse with better precision.
100% agree, an example of your first sentence is the f3 screen
So, if you can program an tool, that is an extension of your own abilities since 1 of your abilities is to program an tool.
flawed logic.
@@DarkDyllon then you should be allowed to use your tools only...
@@DarkDyllon Not really. The tool should just enhance your own abilities but still require you to do it. Think of a sword vs. a thermonuclear warhead. Both will kill your target but the sword is just a force multiplier while the warhead requires no external force of your own.
So You Cant Automate The Entire Speedrun Through AI Based Development?
Simple solution from my ignorant point of view: Reban F3. Takes away any of the problems with policing tools as it kills any of these current strats.
I don't know just how badly that will effect the runs, and how they'd become even more swingy in terms of luck than before. Maybe it would be too much for the community. But I think using tools hurts the competition too much to be allowed.
Banning f3 would solve it ,but literally zero people who actually run the game want it to be banned and it would make running minecraft any% rsg infinately more shitty.
It would hurt the runs really badly, trust me. IMO it's ok because at least it is a part of the game (I'm basically playing in F3 half of the time even though I'm not a speedrunner) and not some sort of outside tool or spreadsheet
Your solution would solve this problem.
But it will not pass because it clashes with another problem with MC speedruns. Very heavy dependance on good RNG. There is so many big and little things that can happen in MC that can screw your run without you being able to do anything about them. You can play as perfectly as you want but without amazing RNG you will still not get anywhere near top of leaderbords.
F3 removes part of that RNG in fair way (fair in sense that it works the same for everyone without any bias).
With current speedruning times, getting back to age before F3 would probably cause quite an outrage. And removing all times, or moving them to TAS would cause outrage too. In both cases it would put a lot of people at huge disadvantage or simply thrown away result of their efforts.
@@VasiliyOgniov If you can't boot up vanilla Minecraft and speedrun it without any external help or programs, then its a tool assisted run in my book.
@@mikeanthony999 What do you mean? F3 mode is not external. It is not intended for excessive usage but it is still in-game feature usable without any other software
Ohhh that quote from "a league of their own " I always liked it. it applies to so many scenarios. And yes, speed running is supposed to be hard. I have played a few video games in my life but I'd never want to speed ran them, cause it'd be hard and I don't care about that kind of greatness. But adding third party programs and tools just defeats the purpose
Speaking as an outside observer of speedruns, I could only see things turn out like this when f3 was allowed. I since then had lost interest in Minecraft speedruns, and this just further cements my decision. It's no longer a game of skill, knowledge, and chance but an exercise in who can fill in the blanks faster.
Again, in my non-speedrunner opinion.
I run games very casually, but I still see external tools as an issue. I feel that something like f3 is interesting, but deserving of an alternate category. It requires a different skillset.
@@benjaminshields9421 yeah I kinda agree, I think using f3 shouldn't be banned but like it's clearly kinda cheating.. gives you way too much info and I think calculators are just an extension of that
There is still a ridiculous amount of skill, knowledge, and chance involved in Minecraft speedruns. You should watch some streams sometime.
I agree, and what surprised me the most in this video was learning the arguments for the unban. I'd expect something about how luck doesn't reflect skill, but allowing it because it's too hard to prevent seems ridiculous. Like other comments below, I'm also surprised they didn't just add more speedrun categories. It'd make perfect sense to just split runs into something like standard, calculator and TAS, and maybe variants with or without using f3. In most games with many speedrunning categories it becomes apparent pretty quickly which ones are more popular anyway, and the risk of someone secretly using a calculator in a calculator-less run would be very low. Not because cheaters don't exist, but because most runners participating in no-calculator speedrunning would presumably be people who are against the use of calculators in the first place.
"it's too hard to prevent seems ridiculous." detecting it's ridiculous and oh boy do mod have work to do
It being too hard to detect is a legitimate reason imo. Imagine all the time it saves the mod team from having to investigate whether or not a calculator was used. The only realistic way to ensure that someone isn't using one of these calculators is to have the speedrunners live streaming not only their game but themselves as well. Using one of these calculators and getting away with it is easier than committing murder or producing child pornography.
What is the point in having this as a rule if it is impossible to enforce?
Here in the comments, I'm seeing a lot of folks talk about how these should be separate categories, and I do agree with that.
However, I wonder if it wouldn't make sense to have the category distinction be based on the use of the F3 Debug stuff. I mean, if the hard numbers are there, is it really that much of a skill difference between calculating the values mentally and using a calculator? Sure, guestimating where the Stronghold is will be less precise and the player will still need to use those eyes to find it as they get closer, but the main concern is how will we know the player isn't using an external calculator from the footage provided?
Instead, would it make more sense to assume those using the F3 Debug menu are going to use calculators, and have that be the category. It seems to be it would be much easier to feel confident that calculators aren't being used if the Debug details aren't available. Perhaps there are still loopholes, but it may make identifying a run a little cleaner.
It's just a thought, though. I know next to nothing about Minecraft speedrunning in general.
No F3 is a very interesting challenge and I wish it got more attention. I'd love a separate category
I dont think f3 is that bad because doing mental math quickly is a skill, but a no f3 category would be cool
I think I agree with this take the most. Because like if the runners are using the F3 menu, disallowing calculators is just punishing people that can't trig well and you're effectively just a power-tripping high school math teacher. Karl said himself that most people using the F3 methods and doing the 50-block just have key values memorized and those using 17.5-block use a nifty math lifehack of dividing by 1000 or whatever. Like if you're gonna memorize a trig table, just use the damn calculator, that doesn't help and is just a somewhat elitist barrier to entry and the whole take of "just be smart" is a bad one, like sorry, muscle memory and setups for consistency, etc. are relevant skills but not memorizing a damn trig table.
SO just leave it as that, F3+Calculator and NO F3. Very simple distinction that would make both camps happy, and I'd even posit that many of people that would try to argue F3 no calculator are doing so in bad faith, because again, its not testing an actual game-related mechanics and skills, it's just to create this random concept of "just be smarter" about something that shouldn't even be significant to the speedrun. The ability to recall trivial information about math is irrelevant to minecraft and I think that a lot of the F3 menu use is just to help people recall random numbers. All the "skillful setups" are just to remember math tables better, and sorry but memorizing math tables is not in any way more impressive than just reading the tables or having the tables calculated for you. Like sure, memorizing key values of the Thermodynamics table for a specific common liquid refrigerant might help you out on the Unit exam in your college course that you have an hour to complete, but it makes you no better an engineer than one that just reads the tables themselves or puts in the equations in their calculator. Same with speedrunning, in my opinion, which is to say not much of an opinion given my relative lack of knowledge about minecraft speedruns, just based on the statements made in this video, this is my take.
BUT with that said, I do agree with the take that calculators pushes it into TAS territory and should be a distinct category. And again, I agree with you specifically in that the category distinction should be made at the F3 menu level rather than the calculator level.
"Is there a skill difference between mental calculations and using a calculator?"
I feel like the average person would know the answer is yes.
"is it really that much of a skill difference between calculating the values mentally and using a calculator?" - Yes. Being able to do trigonometry in your head is a skill.
Frankly allowing F3 was already a step too far for me, this is simply a natural extension of that. In fact as long as F3 is allowed I am all for this so as to not unnecessarily gatekeep against speedrunners with dyscalculia and similar disabilities who would otherwise have all the speedrunning skill and knowledge to do the run.
Keep the calculator, or ditch F3 entirely. Don't half ass this garbage.
I agree. F3 is a debugging TOOL that hides a lot of technical information otherwise hidden. They just need to separate the categories.
The difference is that F3 is something IN the game while calculators are completely external.
@@905SunnyGachaGaming It technically isn't part of the game.
I fully agree with you in this regard. If F3 is allowed, using calculators to simply crunch the numbers from that debug menu is fair game. I'm kinda annoyed that F3 is not part of its own category or not considered tool-assisted since it trivializes all of the difficulty of obtaining the F3 info anyway.
@@905SunnyGachaGaming Some games, like goldeneye, have a cheat menu in-game. That doesn't mean it should be used on speedruns
i think these tools shouldn't be allowed period and frankly i think using F3 debugger is already going too far.
I honestly don't get why we're having this debate,why not just make a category that hard bans f3 and pausing and bs like that and call it a day.
the difference is that f3 is built into the game, whereas these tools are completely external.
@@debornmc okay lets speedrun GTA games by using built in cheat button combinations or Retrogames by using Passwords that spawn you at the final boss. All built into the game! What a terrific experience it is to watch someone trying to type a password quickly in order to shave off 1s off of their PB. F3 is a pandoras Box you shouldn't open.
i never said "because its in the game it should be allowed"
with that logic /gamemode creative and /locate stronghold would be allowed as well
im just saying theres a difference between external tools and internal tools.
which of those tools should be allowed and which are considered cheats depends on the game (obviously)
looking back my original comment was kinda dum, shouldnt have made it :P
I saw the video about pausing and unpausing during a run to stop the clock. Allowing a calculator basically means you can toss your pearl, pause, do your calculations, then go back to the game KNOWING where the stronghold is without having lost any time. Ridiculous.