Will This Controversial Decision Ruin Minecraft Speedrunning?
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 25 ธ.ค. 2021
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In today's video we will take a look at a very controversial decision that was recently made by the Minecraft speedrunning moderators to allow external tools to be used during speedruns. Do you think this is a good decision?
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No.
Congratulations on your exclusive sponsorship for this exciting new game. I've heard many great things about.. hahaha as if. Well I can't blame you.
I've never played mine craft (I'm old), but I love Karl's videos, so here I am.
Merry Christmas, everyone.
This game is all the rage in the gaming community right now
Genuine question could you cover the GuitarHeroStyles/AdvyStyles drama? It’s a major topic in the geometry dash community.
Imagine you practice for a marathon for years and years. You dedicate your life to it and then someone comes up and is like: "Yea, you can also use cars now"
Excellent analogy bro!
Or if cars were banned, but bicycles were allowed. "He's still using his legs for power, so it's allowed".
sounds rad as hell
This is more like, you don't have to carry your own water now.
What kind of analogy is this? All the external tools do is give the location of the Stronghold. It's like running a marathon except you have the GPS on your phone so you know how to get to the finish line.
If only there was a category that allows TOOLS that ASSIST you in SPEEDRUNS.
What a dream category that would be
Right? I think someone should start it. Sounds like a popular enough idea and it keeps the purists from going obsolete.
Pesthuf i see what ya did there 😂 that was a good one
@Raz MaTaz what you’re misunderstanding is that Pesthuf was actually shouting those words…so the capitalization was appropriate.
@@Luminethereploid okay give it to me straight, is this a reference to Dream using altered drop chances, which to an extent would be a tool assisted speedrun (if not just straight up cheating, even in a TAS catagory)?
Straight up insane for them to do this without making a separate category.
Yeah, the majority of top minecraft speedrunners who made this decision on their own are INSANE and definitely not the guy who "hates" their decision
I'm with this- I don't want to punish runners who have worked hard to develop this skill, but nor do I blame runners who want to eliminate a math intensive, slower paced part of the run, particularly since people are finding ways around it anyway and it's very hard to prove the not-use of many of the things implemented. We could go back to no F3, but that slows things down SO MUCH, and speedrunners would lose their minds
On that note, I fully support a "No F3" category extension
@@mjp121 Already exists. Doesn't get runs and doesn't get attention because the game is extremely random without it. You guys have to deal with reality man this is insane...
@@shorthanyfantano6944 'the guy who hates their decision' if you have to make bad faith arguments maybe your position isn't very good? Clearly a LOT of people have issue with this decision. Saying people shouldn't criticize it because qualified people had a hand in making it is equally insane. Was that supposed to be a dunk...?
I personally would allow a non-programmable physical calculator, just cause I think it would be fun to watch them punch the numbers in
I'd prefer watching people do calculations on a sheet of paper
Separate categories for abacus and slide rule, is pencil and paper permitted (and the controversial issue of pre-sharpening pencils before the timer starts), counting on fingers only for the purists...
I think this would be fine too as they would lose time to the point where it's not worth it for higher level play. It makes it easier to get into, but without changing the ultimate goal.
@@Hosh1yami Make them crack out the ol' abacus
thats still a Tool Assisted Speedrun, just not the same tools your used to lol
I assure you, my protractor is very necessary for locating the stronghold. Please don’t ban it:(
Yep
My sextant is crucial to the run :(
POV: You are the center of a protractor.
You guys aren't using octants?
You've been quiet on here lately EZ... Miss you man, hope you're doing well, and may your protractor forever be 1 radian in circumference.
"The final part of the run is The End"
Look Karl, I know exactly what you mean, but this still got a surprisingly large chuckle out of me
Yes -he did have to confirm that we are not talking about, say, the Sonic, Tails and Knuckles category-
kek
@@unavailableun You gave me a stroke reading this
@@sipinosapa _bows_
When people started using spreadsheets, how was the question "should we unban calculators?" and not "should we ban spreadsheets?" Also it seems pretty easy to police if you ban both. Disqualify any run that copies the debug log to the clipboard. The game shows when it happens...
Disqualify any run that opens the debug log
@@t395delta desqualify any run that uses any F key
@@DNL-gr3kc Disqualify anyone that uses any 3rd party program to get an unfair advantage in any competition, period....We have a word for those type of things, 'trainers' 'hacks'...Cheats. And they're not allowed for competition or multiplayer games in general. I love a good cheat in a single player game where I'm just dicking around with spawnign 100 dragons in skyrim for the laughs. But its entirely different when its a competition or a multiplyer game that effects others. So the simple solution to keep things fair, and to not legitimize cheating in competition, is just disallow any 3rd party programs, and if you get caught.....Get dat ass banned.
If someone wanted to cheat with minecraft, they could always have an external application watch/actively read the log on a separate monitor and show the location of a stronghold once it has enough information *shrugs*. It's a difficult rule to enforce, not sure they should have given up on enforcing it though.
@@tien-le then you can make legal to use jetpacks in the olympic 100 metres because running 100 metres in under 10 seconds isn't exactly easy
There should be two separate categories. One for no F3 + no calculators and one with F3 + calculators.
F3 already gives such a huge advantage with techniques such as E-raying to find bastions, quadrant checking, the dragon fight, and stronghold location it's wild that there isn't a separate category for F3 runs even before the recent unbanning of calculators.
F3 is a MASSIVE tool- more significantly game breaking than any of the calculators, it's just accepted because people put a lot of time into learning how to abuse it in increasingly creative ways, and it's "part of the game." You know what else is part of the game? Creative mode. And yet if you swapped into that, people would call hacks. Using F3 is also what made pausing problematic. There are PLENTY of skill elements left to separate the best runners without needing to rely on being able to best abuse f3 to find strongholds- runners can either play no f3, or play the fastest, least rng version of random seed available
Facts, also hey cub, awesome season of hermitcraft, hope the new year is treating you well
afaik an f3 speedrun is labeled with "(f3)"
cubfan is so based
One problem with the "anti-F3" argument is that it ignores the fact that F3 is literally programmed into the game. In my opinion, F3 should be considered "normal", while no-F3 should be a specialty "extra hard" category.
I’m a musician, and in the world of music when a new tool comes out that makes the process of creating music more accessible it’s always a positive thing. When I started this video that was what I was thinking about and how that mindset could be true with speed running as well. More people being able to run the game without having to know all the strategies and math involved. However it only took me a few minutes to realize that speed running is different. Speed running isn’t art it’s a sport, you should have to learn the strategies and techniques to make it to the top. Speed running has a clear finish line, being the fastest in the world and to be the fastest you should have to play without the aid of any device that simplifies the process. It is hard but that’s the point of it.
The spirit is important, but if all you want is hard they could be saying "no F3 either". What's also important is that most of the community agrees on and plays within the rules.
I agree. Music isn't a competitive sport. That being said, I wouldn't mind if autotune was banned :D
@@soapfoam f3 is in the game, calculators are not
musician here as well. Perfecting your musicianship does not have a clear finish line, speedrunning does. I totally agree with you here.
@@Alpacachino_ Going back to music - just because people are trained on classical means they shouldn't use outside resources like jazz chords and microtonal scales? It's a matter of taste. If you don't like that make something different (a new leaderboard, an appeal to the minecraft mods, etc.)
The only way new tools should be allowed is if a new category is made for their use.
That's my thought. Sure, do the runs with tools if it's more fun for you. But I don't think they should be in the same leaderboards as those doing without. That's not fair to the people who do the calculations themselves.
When I finished the video that was my thoughts lead me to. I don’t speedrun, but play Minecraft. If you ask me it is like allowing steroids in the Olympics.
You literally cannot tell if someone is using it on another screen, thats why it does nothing to ban it other than handicapping honest runners.
@@RedstoneWizard1983 No F3 category and F3 with calculators
@@azerim2039 yes something like that.
It should definitely be it's own category. Hell, most games already have this category. It's called "tool-assisted"
They should setup a second webcam with a sheet of paper and a ti 84 where they calculate by hand imo.
They want to use a Ti84 in the middle of a potential world record speedrun? The use of tools that require manual input is fine by me because that's time loss for them. It's the fact that the inputs are not manual that makes this bad.
@@TheTrueBrawlerit’s a joke u nerd
TI-84 can be programmed lol
But s piece of paper and a pen are also tools. They are using tools. What if you are just better at math? That is not a game skill. What if you just have a better education? Then you make sure only wealthy people can compete. This makes no sense.
This is a lot like the "broomgate" controversy in the sport of curling. I wonder if it will take the same path.
In 2009, a scientific paper finally proved what many players suspected: that the direction a player swept the ice could greatly affect the path of the rock depending on the type of broom head the players used. For about 5 years, there was a curling broom arms race, with some teams looking for any edge they could get. There were a group of high level players that outright refused to use the most effective broom heads, because they didn't like the fact that the new heads were so effective that once mediocre teams could make great shots if they had great sweepers.
There was a debate on what skills should be rewarded in high-level curling. Since the game's inception, shotmaking had been the most important skill, but in the span of a couple years, upper body strength and endurance became the most important trait a team could have. Eventually, seeing the degradation of the sport into a contest of brawn over finesse and brains, the World Curling Federation banned many broom heads outright and set even stricter rules for major competitions to reduce the effect of sweeping to pre broomgate days.
That's an interesting take but there is an important distinction to make between an olympic sport and minecraft speedrunning, which is much less popular or well known. All the mods are volunteers. They don't get paid like curling officials do, and they have so much work to do as it is with so many more people submitting speedruns that need to be watched and accepted. They simply don't have the ability to fully regulate speedrunning especially when it comes to programs or calculators that are extremely hard to detect.
Thank you for this comment. I love random facts like this and this one takes the cake as one of the most random of facts I have learned.
@@rainbow-kc8pw I don't think they have the ability to regulate this kind of thing regardless of how much time and effort they spend. The problem is that everything is predictable in Minecraft due to how it's made, and there's a ton of ways they can cheat the information off screen. If chat can feed a streamer info, so can a buddy in the same room, or a private message from someone watching the stream, or some other near.undetectable way.
And what happens if they crack down on chat feeding information? Sounds good on paper, until you realize chat can grief runs by just giving information to the streamer whether they want it or not.
Sweeping also makes Curling look like the dumbest sport of all time.
@@harbingerofwarx995 speedrunning (especially Minecraft speedrunning) is based on the honor system in the first place. It’s really easy to splice a run (I haven’t I swear) but people don’t do it because they have integrity so calculators would also be based off the honor system and it would still be fine. One of the cons listed in the google form vote for keeping calculators banned was it was based off the honor system which isn’t optimal. However if you have the guiltless mindset to use a banned frowned-upon resource and still (without guilt) submit it and receive validation for the run then you have the guiltless mindset to splice a run. The same system works. This still doesn’t account for chat spam so whatever also how would you be able to casually do the setup in a real run with it going under the radar ok bye
I'm okay with it, but it needs to have its own category, separate from the category where people don't use it.
In this way, everyone can do what they want, and we can watch the ones *we* want.
Yea!!! Options are always better. I honestly think that's what will end up happening. It sux that it's got to be the meta now for all the runs. We already have any % runs and TAS runs and that's where this belongs IMO
Calculator%
Just my thought
Especially since the vote to unban it appeared rather close, indicating that there would probably be sufficient interest to support both categories.
I kinda agree but it's not a perfect solution either as it divides the community between the calculator runners and the other runners. The separation isn't as big as the player vs TAS one but it's one to think about
I love when people are sponsored by Raid and mock it in a way that wouldn't necessarily disqualify them from being sponsored
That's really dishonest. You get paid to promote something, if you don't like it and are convinced it's a good product, then don't take the money and show your whole community something you don't yourself believe in.
For anyone interested in how the 17.5 block method works, it uses the small angle approximation of sin(theta) = theta where theta is the angle in radians.
By throwing your first eye then moving perpendicular to the throw 17.5 blocks, you draw a right triangle between the two points of your throw and the location of the stronghold. The side closest to you is 17.5 blocks long, and the difference between the two recorded angles is the furthest angle from you. From this you can use the definition sin(theta) = opposite/hypotenuse to get the length of the hypotenuse. If you try a few numbers in your calculator (with angles in radians) then you will quickly see that for small angles (~15 degrees or less) then sin(theta) is pretty close to theta, enough for a rough approximation.
Why does dividing by 1000 as stated in the video work? The angle in-game is represented as a bearing in degrees. To convert to radians we need to divide that by pi/180. Rewriting the above equation to hypotenuse = opposite/theta, we can plug in the known numbers (opposite = 17.5, theta = measured angle/(pi/180)) to get:
hypotenuse = (17.5*180/pi)/(measured angle in degrees).
Conveniently (or rather, why the length of 17.5 was chosen in the first place!), 17.5*180/pi is roughly 1000, so 1000/(measured angle in degrees) is a very good first approximation of the distance of the stronghold!
If the angle between the two eye tosses gets to big this approximation breaks down, but by imagining the triangle formed by the eyes and the stronghold you can intuit that the stronghold must be quite close by, so this method works even if the maths start to break down.
in a nutshell is that 17.5/sin(1°)=1002.727 which is basically 1k. so you can do 1k/angle change
I have no issues with the use of tools for a speedrun but they should definetely go into a TAS category or even a category of their own.
There can be 3 categories. TAS, Debug, and Pure...
That's why categories exist
can you explain how calculators would help a tas in any way? the majority of the community already voted for calc unban, nothings changing.
@@karatebaby6871 Calculators per definition is TAS, even if it's not say a bot that speedruns for you. TAS stands for Tool Assisted Speedrun, and a calculator is a tool
@@karatebaby6871 Weel, basically a TAS is a "Tool assisted speedrun" a calculator is a Tool not given by the game so it should (Imo) stand in a TAS category. The decision was to first ban it. The rule said : no calculators allowed but the spirit was : do not use anything else to help calculate the stronghold coordinates. People respected the rule but not its spirit so, after a vote, the calculators got unbanned. But the thing is, even if people voted to unban it, it's not like the spirit is still the same. Like he said in the video, what makes a speedrun great is the performance of a human being, not the greatness of the tool they used. It's like a sport and so using tools to help winning doesn't make it a greater performance.
They should just make them separate categories so people who don’t like it can still hold WR and have fun
Duh.
I agree sort of like mario 64 where there is shortcut and non shortcut categories...have self triangulation and computer triangulation categories
Yeah they should make a category in which you can use Tools that Assist your Speedruns
Or they could just call it what it is, tool assisted lol
I mean, it inevitably already has splintered into two categories. I think the real question is which category gets the prestige of being any%?
I'm not a speed runner, so I come to this very much with an outsider's viewpoint, but the introduction of console tools seems to be far more "tool assisted" than allowing someone to automate a bit of 2d trigonometry. Loads of people can do basic trigonometry and write computer programs but feeling your way to a location using only the thrown eyes looked far more like a computer game playing skill.
If I understand that correctly, this is not something that just does some 2D trig. This is (basically) a hot-key activated program that does the whole triangulation process for you. This is way more than pulling up the F3 console and crunching some numbers with a calculator on your desk.
I agree with this. If the F3 screen was a mod rather than a gameplay feature the moderation team would ban it immediately. No one would even question why it was banned, those that did would just be laughed at.
@@Jack-kx5rf By that logic they might as well just spawn in the ender dragon with console commands. It's in the game.
Console commands aren’t available when cheats aren’t on. The things in the video should be allowed - cheating is 1. Not following rules of the category, 2. Modification of the game, 3. Modification of inputs. This doesn’t fall under any of them. By that logic you could say reading twitch chat is getting external help and all runners should play in a sensory deprivation chamber
exactly, either allow F3 or not at all. A pro could screen scrape co-ordinates or type them into a calculator on another computer on another monitor. Plus, if you banned spreadsheets I'm sure people would have went to lengths like printing out precalculated lookup tables no much different than the trigonometric lookup tables in the back of grade 10 textbooks before calculators.
When you first said calculator, I immediately thought of those TI-30X calculators we used in school. To me that type of calculator is really just an extension of pen and paper since we were taught how to do everything those calculators could do by hand. I feel like pen and paper are an obvious "tool" for any speed run and I guess by extension a hand held calculator. Maybe for me the line in the sand is "human input" for the calculations, since the tools shown in the video pretty clearly require little to no understanding on the runner's part of the calculations going on behind the scenes. The way the end of the video was worded, it seemed to imply things like pen and paper ought to invalidate a run since a runner could "just remember better" as a skill. Maybe for the hardcore purists that's an actual take. Food for thought.
Maybe the rule could be that the calculator should either be non-programmable or in exam mode.
"tools shown in the video pretty clearly require little to no understanding on the runner's part of the calculations going on behind the scenes" Sure like u know how calculator calculate thing like sin cos tan log. When using hand calculator like this, you sure know how those thing are calculated right?
@@khiemgom That is not his point, unnecessary...
I agree, i think paper and pen, or some external tool are fine. You have to have the game knowledge and the math knowledge... A software designed to do everything for you isn't far from a cheating software, like a bot...
@@sophiacristina but still not knowing how a piece of software works doesnt mean using it is cheating
If they're going to allow calculators, they need a new category then: Human TAS Any% for 1.9 or earlier, 1.10 - 1.16, and 1.17 or later. Just like so many speed runs have Glitched and Glitchless categories, or OOB and In Bounds, Minecraft could have a Human TAS tab. The rule is that the player must be physically active within the speed run, with no external program manipulating any movements, but are allowed to use third party tools to aid in calculations, without altering in-game calculations and game rules, to avoid the Dream Run controversy. If a player is demonstrated to have used a calculation tool or a spreadsheet even once during a run, then they do not qualify for a standard any% category. Since glitches are generally not supported in Minecraft speedruns as they can look very similar to modded speedruns, and do not always work across versions or platforms or even devices (thus an unfair advantage in speedrunning), a Human TAS category could allow extreme players to test the limits, like a glitch or OOB abuse run, without harming the efforts of standard runners on their leaderboards.
This would eliminate the need to even ask the questions, because the label will clearly show, this runner is just trying to run the game as fast as possible by any means necessary, rather than only using skills and instinct and functioning within the boundary of the game.
"If a player is demonstrated to have used a calculation tool or a spreadsheet even once during a run, then they do not qualify for a standard any% category"
No one tell them that most anti-calculator runners support using spreadsheets mid run and that if you're streaming there's nothing to stop your chat from calculating for you, there's also nothing to verify that you memorised the contents of a spreadsheet rather than just looking it up, how would verifiers know otherwise?
People should watch one of these "TAS" runs and judge for themselves instead of going by Karl's warped description of them and how little skill they have. Look at Crookste's 10:56 from a few days ago. The very vast majority of thinking on the spot is still done. Karl should also mention that perfect travel doesn't take 0 skill, some runners who did manual calculation (with aid of spreadsheet/table) didn't want to learn it because they weren't able to do it. Also check out 7rowl's 10:59 uploaded an hour ago. RSG runners are more talented than ever, it's a stupid time to try to diminish what they're doing, not a single person is "using a calculator because they suck and want to go faster without trying", this might apply to someone who doesn't have a sub 20 time if anyone
"this might apply to someone who doesn't have a sub 20 time if anyone" Yet that's the point isn't it? A ton of worse runners with slow blinds getting top times because external programs basically wipe out the time it takes to triangulate the stronghold. You can actually relate to that one since you literally blinded into the stronghold in your run, making you, someone with a previous 17 or 18 minute pb into the first sub 10. You're being pretty disingenuous when you tell someone to look at top runners' recent PBs, since they've displayed skill with and without external programs. The issue is with other runners, slower runners, who can now compete with these top times, not because of more skill, but because of way better endgames.
@@brentilda The point he is trying to make isn't that it removes all skill from the equation but gives a strong disadvantage to players that wish to play without spread sheets or calculators just how a speedruners with glitches can involve just as much skill if not more then glitchless speedruns but both are categories are commonly run and enjoyed. separating the runs into 2 categories would allow both types of speedruners to run the game in the way they find most enjoyable with out having their speedruns discounted
@@Otto_Von_Beansmarck How will we determine that someone isn't looking at a spreadsheet on another monitor or being told the values by someone? Manual triangulation for the last 8+ months has just been a game of memorising distances for x angle change, often with a tables/spreadsheet open even if just to double check that your memory is right. You could just claim that you remembered. Also, considering that most people voted to allow calculators, I think even more of them would vote to allow spreadsheets/tables. A split is ambiguous and a ton of work, will we get splits for purist, no-calc no-aid, no-calc aid, restricted calc (what we have), unlimited calc? How can you police that people are following criteria like no-calc no-spreadsheet? There is simply no feasible way.
@@PigeonFlare "They've displayed skill without external programs" Why do you think I mentioned them? They use calculators. The Couriway ad hominen "argument" of "you hit the blind" is pure nonsense because like I've said I am advocating for less RNG in end games. If I want to capitalise on the edge I've gotten from getting lucky, why would I advocate for that?And no, it won't make people without sub 20 times get top times any more than hitting the blind does. It's not so much that calc saves time, it's that it's reliable. The outcome we're interested in is hitting the stronghold, with (manual) calculated travel only do so much to maximise your chances and hitting the stronghold is partially luck, and the way in which it's done is indistinguishable from calculator or external aid.
I see nothing wrong with tools being allowed, but the run must thus specifically be identified as "Tool-Assisted".
thought about writing the same comment :D
Part of the problem is 'tool assisted' has adopted such a different definition over the years. TAS Minecraft already exists and is far different from simply using a triangulation calculator.
Maybe just "calculator" or "no calculator."
I think it should just be a different category
The entire thing can definitely be solved with creating two different Speedrun categories
Just to mention, there is at least one example where an external tool actually made a run better, which is windwaker 100% where now days a tool is used to predict the patterns for the minigame "sploosh kaboom" (a version of battleship).
But there is one difference. In windwaker the thing that was removed was a pure luck element, because runners could only blind guess and it was just rng if the run died or not. Also you need to input everything manually.
But the same principal doesn't apply here because 1. The thing that is removed from the run isn't rng but skill and 2. It isn't even done manually, which from my standpoint would compare if you (an console) don't modify the game but the console (turbo buttons, etc.) And I hope I don't need to tell you why those aren't legal anymore.
Rng is being “removed”, but the fact is that Minecraft is all about playing around the rng and making calculated decisions. The calculator removes the “calculated” part
@@burgerchild and as I said, in Minecraft there is no rng part being removed but a skill part
@@burgerchild actually it "improves" the calculated decision haha.
Don't worry I know what you meant, just sae an oppertunity for some wordplay
Another is in RE3, where there's a mod that makes the magnum a granade launcher, which basically eliminated the possibility that 50% of runs will die because the runner gets the mangum as opposed to the launche. This has been accepted by the community since all it does is replace the item with another, nothing more.
Totally agree about the Windwaker 100%. Also to note here about that. The RNG in Wind Waker ticks from the time the game is turned on. In Dragon Roost Dungeon (which happens before the Sploosh Kaboom game) the RNG ticks crazy fast because of all the particle physics calls happening. The tool only works if you have a decent estimate of your RNG value range when you hit Sploosh Kaboom, otherwise it is pretty useless. So even then, the Wind Waker tool only really works if the runner consistently executes all of the run (especially Dragon Roost) up till that point In the game. Makes a huge difference when no information is exported from the game to the tool and players have to manually enter.
I think this really shows the issues I've had with Minecraft speedruns. I understand that things like movement patterns and other forms of RNG will always have an effect, but the entire run of Minecraft is based on RNG, where you spawn, Piglin trades, where the stronghold is, etc. It seems like the speedrunners are interested in overcoming the challenge of playing a different world every game, but then they methods which try to streamline and minimise the challenge that logically follows from playing such a format.
If you don't want to deal with the difficulties of random worlds, you can already run set seed.
At that point, why not just do /seed and have a tool tell you where the closest nether fortress, bastion, and stronghold are? It's ridiculous
slippery slope, poor argument
cause the tool to set the seed extearnally is missing, as well as the insta winn
@@kskcp7243 It's only a matter of time before someone figures out how to reverse-engineer a seed from arbitrary data like initial terrain layout and so forth.
Once you open the door to external programs like the ones that can predict Stronghold locations from digging up random treasure chests, you will eventually get to the point where a couple of images of terrain can determine pretty much every element of a seed: locations of iron/obsidian/other goodies, location of bastions, etc.
It's not a slippery slope argument; it's inevitability.
@@GeneralBolas There are progammes to calculate the seed form the world e.g. mossy cobblestone in dungeons or fossils in the nether or caves or ravins...
@@GeneralBolas That already exists and he mentioned it in the video
I feel like with the introduction of external tools like these should be broken into a new category as they do seem to take the spirit away from aspects of the run but are very interesting in their own way. So to keep both communities happy that could be an easy fix
Why not split the leaderboard like theyve done a thousand times? A no F3 leaderboard, an F3 allowed leaderboard, and an F3 plus calculators leaderboard.
Really well made video and we have a bunch of very similar thoughts. Great work Karl and thanks for making a video on this topic :)
Hello Couriway :) big fan of your work
Imo they should just make a new category for tool assisted run if people really want to use calculators, as putting them in the same category as runs with no tools is just unfair
By this video’s logic, any speedrun with a timer is also a TAS. After all, a timer is an external tool which gives helpful additional information to the player that is not available in the default game and significantly assists with the speedrunning process. I don’t see his point at all.
@@thesaroscycle_archive Now that I think about it, that makes a lot of sense. Timers give you valuable information about what pace you're on, and allows you to make decisions based off of that pace.
@@thesaroscycle_archive ratio
you have a point.. not a good one, but its something
I do agree with this but there needs to be something done about speedrunners asking their chat to do anything for them when speed running. It puts bigger streamers at a massive advantage.
A 5 minute stream delay should be mandatory for speedruns. Not sure though if this could be validated after a new WR? Comparing system time with stream time could probably just be rigged by setting your systems time 5 minute off i guess?
A simple review of the stream’s comments that contained the speedrun should solve any of those issues
@@chiefbologna5719 If you implement a rule against chat helping bad faith actors can do the input and kill a run when the streamer doesn't even want help though, no?
@@emojack
"15 MINUTE DELAY
AND THEN WHAT?
THEN WHAT?
I TALK TO MYSELF,
LIKE SOME CRAZY
COMPLETE IDIOT?
HEY GUYS THANKS FOR THE SUB MAN
OH OH YO OH WAIT,
OH YOU'RE,
YOU'RE TWELVE?
OH O YOU HAVE A BEARD NOW?
THAT'S FANTASTIC
DUD, DUD
THE,
THE VIEWERS WILL GROW UP,
HAVE CHILDREN,
GO TO COLLEGE,
GRADUATE,
GET MARRIED,
GET SIX KIDS,
DIE,
COME BACK TO LIFE,
GET REZZED,
THEN I'LL STILL FU
SHAAA
DU-DU"
- Felix Lengyel
@@simonvietjohansson8069 can easily avoid that by adding a delay on stream or they can even have his chat set to emote only for just that run. There's many, many ways around what youre talking about
At the beginning of the video, regarding external programs, Karl says, “Gone are the days where you would actually need to use your brain.” Lol then says, “I will also share my opinion at the end.” Hmmm I wonder what his opinion is about these tool assisted runs 😆.
Next up: Minecraft speed running unbans bots navigating for you!?
Next Next up: Minecraft speed running unbans hacks!?
Next Next Next up: minecraft speed running unbans creative mode!?
While I agree with the points you’ve made, what happens when you use the F3 menu, and chat uses a calculator, beyond your control, and they say the calculated value in chat? Is your run invalid because someone else spoiled it for you? It’s worth thinking about.
Edit: I wrote the comment like 20 seconds before you commented about it in the video. Yeah like, technically if the calculated answer appears in chat at all, the run is technically invalid if the “calculators banned” rule were enforced without limitation. So it means the streamer could never look at chat, or not have a chat at all, for fear of someone ruining their run by giving them the calculated value.
If chat becomes a tool a runner must turn it off. The same way blind sm64 speed run can not have text to speech
Can't they put chat on emote only for the runs?
I'm not a speedruner myself but if you were going for a WR or PB wouldn't you avoid looking at the chat or anything that could distract from the game?
Turn on sub-only chat? Tell your subs they get banned if they do that. It's your fanbase, your responsibility.
Also, seriously, how likely is this? If there's a big warning saying "Dude, don't tell me calculations" how many people who actually spend their time watching your stream are gonna disobey that?
@@emeraldbonsai I… do like that idea. I mean it doesn’t solve the core issue of being able to hide calculator use by the streamer, but I do like the idea of hiding those details from chat if I wanted to avoid others spoiling it for me.
This reminds me of something we've been talking about in the Metroid Dread community. There can be a lot of mashing to fire at a boss quickly, and there are people who want to allow turbo controllers. I'm probably a mid-speed masher, and I know that I lose a lot of time when I have to mash a lot, but I'm still adamantly against turbo controllers for it. Just like here, it's a skill that should be worked on, not fixed by a machine.
I honestly believe that just splitting the categories and having people be honest about what they're using is the solution.
@@hariman7727 There's been talk about that, and making a separate category, but there's such a stigma attached to turbo that they're afraid having a new category will scare people off. There are merits to both discussions, and the big talk is a capped turbo. Not so fast that it's an instant kill, but and slow enough that most people can mash at least as fast as the turbo.
I came here to say the same thing. While I agree that turbo shouldn't be used, at least with Dread there's the concern that high speed mashing could physically damage you (e.g. carpal tunnel).
@@SpaveFrostKing some people also just don't have the coordination to mash it's super fast speeds, which is why I honestly think a turbo allowed and a separate capped turbo category would be the best.
@@SpaveFrostKing I'm more concerned for my controller, lol.
The use of external tools isn't just outside of the spirit of speedrunning, it's outside the spirit of gaming in general. We've become so used to looking things up on wikis in this day and age that many of us have forgotten the joys of figuring things out for ourselves.
Minecraft itself, admittedly, has contributed to this problem by actively encouraging players to look things up in walkthroughs, and arguably still being borderline impossible to complete without the use of outside help. However, I think that giving in to a desire to encourage the use of external tools makes the problem worse, not better.
I can't imagine that anyone can honestly say that plugging numbers into a spreadsheet is more fun than playing the game properly, even if, as the joke so often goes, people are trying to optimize the fun out of it. But, if such people exist (and I do happen to know a Minecraft player who genuinely has fun working with databases, God bless him) they can always create their own category and compete to see who can spreadsheet the fastest. We can call it the Excel% category.
yo, I was playing games with external tools since before the internet.
No one who played Zork or Wizardry didn't make maps, also, I refuse to believe that anyone ever beat Castlevania Simon's Quest without a guide or prior knowledge.
But yeah, why this wasn't just given it's own category is beyond me.
+1 for Excel%
@@NormalPersonCommenting I also back this
+2 for Excel%
Wind Waker speedrunners sure like plugging numbers into a tool more than sploosh kaboom RNG destroying runs
You never trade tips on the playground?
I agree to a certain extent figuring out a puzzle on your own is part of gaming imo but sometimes a developer can make a puzzle too complicated or just do a flat out bad job at conveying how the puzzle should be completed. Like the original LOZ it's an amazing game but a lot of the hints make little since and it doesn't do a very good job conveying where to go, that's why I think botw was do much better it to that original Idea that they had and fixed the issues with it. I don't think speedrunning should allow external tools but I don't think external tools goes against the spirit of gaming there have been guides and walk through to games since games like adventure on atari plus if we consider any outside tool against the spirit of gaming then manuals would go against that since many back in nes days were used to help the player understand where to go maybe not outright stating it but leading them in that direction. I think it's OK to get help with a game when you need it because to me I view at least things like walk through and guides represent what gaming is, a media meant to be shared.
None of this was really about the minecraft Calc thing which I want to clarify I'd dumb and should have been allowed. It's just my opinion that external tools go against gaming which is just wrong no matter which generation of gamer you are it's OK to need help and your not dumb for getting stuck on a part the method of getting help is different then it was in then 80s and 90s but it is essentially the same thing it always was.
One would expect, with the abundance of new players, that the rules would be made, on the contrary, harder. I don't understand the decision either. It makes no sense to call non assisted, a tool assisted speedrun, even if only one tool is used. In minecraft, finding the stronghold is a real gameplay element, in which skill is important not to waste eyes. it's not like it's full luck finding it.
The simplest solution is to have a category for each.
Dont use anything, "PURE" speedrun, and another that is essentially a TAS.
If you want a middle ground of a specific tool just for a particular reason, thats fine as well.
But dont mix the categories, as a leaderboard makes only sense if the people work under the same rule set, otherwise you compare apples to space ships.
"Don't mix the Categories"
Ala Diablo 3's ridiculous Randomly Generated Greater Rifting "Leaderboards". It's utterly and completely pointless because no two Greater Rifts have ever or will ever be identical, the point is to hunt and fish for specifically narrow possibilities for a "Faster" clear, while skill IS a factor, the fact of the matter is, every map is 100% procedurally generated and so no two races are the same.
Drives me crazy.
I thought most games already had a TAS category? weird that minecraft did not, and now they choose to combine rta and tas into 1? /S
You missed the issue of why they went with this decision - How will you prove that someone is using calculator when submiting "pure" speedrun? As long as he enters data manualy into it (for example on second computer with one hand while still moving in game with the other one) you would have no way to prove one way or the other.
The more extreme one pearl tactics notwithstanding, how will you differentiate between player who can do good triangulation with two pearls vs one who used calculator? In both cases their gameplay would look same. Unlike with cheaters with xray or who used non-random seed, where you can see them acting on knowledge they should not have, with this you would have no way to call one or the other cheater.
@@PyroclasticMind there not litterly combining the 2 categories and minecraft did have tas runs.
I fail to understand how people overlook the problem with this argument.
You clutter the leaderboards heavily when you make a category for each, when people get wrs on the different categories, the magic is lost and people just start arguing about whether to count it as the wr.
I feel like this is an easy fix, break the runs into 2 different categories. The first is no pause, no f3, no tools. With the second being called tool assisted, and let people use all that stuff.
100% agree, woul have commented the same thing.
F3 should have it's own category.
Vanilla, F3, TAS.
Honestly I feel like F3 should be allowed as vanilla. Maybe an "Ultra Vanilla" category should disallow F3.
How, exactly, would you suggest the moderators go about policing this easy fix of yours?
Why f3 or pausing? Make a seperate category for people who want to beat Minecraft only using what is actually INSIDE the game.
I agree, and what surprised me the most in this video was learning the arguments for the unban. I'd expect something about how luck doesn't reflect skill, but allowing it because it's too hard to prevent seems ridiculous. Like other comments below, I'm also surprised they didn't just add more speedrun categories. It'd make perfect sense to just split runs into something like standard, calculator and TAS, and maybe variants with or without using f3. In most games with many speedrunning categories it becomes apparent pretty quickly which ones are more popular anyway, and the risk of someone secretly using a calculator in a calculator-less run would be very low. Not because cheaters don't exist, but because most runners participating in no-calculator speedrunning would presumably be people who are against the use of calculators in the first place.
"it's too hard to prevent seems ridiculous." detecting it's ridiculous and oh boy do mod have work to do
It being too hard to detect is a legitimate reason imo. Imagine all the time it saves the mod team from having to investigate whether or not a calculator was used. The only realistic way to ensure that someone isn't using one of these calculators is to have the speedrunners live streaming not only their game but themselves as well. Using one of these calculators and getting away with it is easier than committing murder or producing child pornography.
What is the point in having this as a rule if it is impossible to enforce?
I agree that allowing calculators for this is absurd, its like allowing students to use their phones on an exam. It completely takes the point out of it.
In my opinion if you work it out on pen and paper than it's fine but using a literal program to do it is just really dumb
Bro ots a mc speedrun not a math test. A speedrun should test a players skill, not their education.
@@drmusa1003 I'm using the concept of substitution to point out how stupid it is. It's not meant to be taken literally
I would love to see Random Seed, Glitchless, Real Time, No F3, No external help (tools or chat or motivational texts from mom) speedruns be a thing.
maybe we can allow motivational texts from mom
In game time is beacuse there becomes a hardware diffrence in the loading sections
@@StarComet7 you can always use real time and reduce it by loading times. I believe Brie wanted to avoid abusing pausing the game.
@@aquathird5918 The current timing method is adequate as it is. They do real time - loads - settings changes. I believe all other pauses are timed. Also, they only retime top runs, not every run, as it would take too long to do.
@@energy9802 I think you missed the point of my comment. Read the 2 comments above mine in this chain as well.
This is my thought too - it sounds like enough 'sus' things are allowed in this category now that a category split would be meaningful
I think tools become a problem when they're made for things that can be improved on by skill. You cant practice RNG like the wind waker battleship minigame. But you can practice finding strongholds without a calculator.
Yes, the wind waker battleship game is a perfect example why sometimes tools should be allowed
@@AniviaS But is is a perfect example that they should not be used. People just don't want to invest so much time learning the ins and outs of that game. That is just a cop out. No one would use that logic with minecraft seeds, but because the minigame is a small part of the game no one wants to invest time to learn it.
This tbh. Really good analogy. I mean, the battleship minigame is pure luck, you can't practice it. But stronghold finding? The way i see it, if you reach the point where you don't even need an eye of ender to find the stronghold anymore, then what's the point of searching for them in the first place? IMO, that's just a seed viewer with extra steps. Might as well allow those now that calculators are allowed. While we're at it, by that logic, you can probably use calculators to locate blaze spawners too. With this in mind, we might as well allow seed viewers for that purpose. At that point, the only real difference to set seed speedruns is that you don't know the seed right away.
@@RanEncounter The game is solved, everyone already knows the optimal strategy, it's just down to luck if you don't use the tool.
@@hoodedman6579It is not just down to luck. There are optimal strategies to picking the right square in each situation.
Also in that game there is literally a different cathegory to using the tool. That is the best option in my opinion.
I have a feeling this is the start of a slippery slope to just using chunkbase to find the strongholds, fortresses, and bastions and if needed towns.
In my opinion, people shouldn't just stick to the concept whether it is tool-assisted or not. If using a calculator is the same as checking a table, and checking a table is the same as reciting the table, there is no choice for the moderators but to allow calculators as a whole.
I mean, you can't ban people reciting tables. This table may be too long to recite, but other tables like the one for Divine Travel is perfectly recitable. There is no way you can draw a line to say which table is recitable and which is not. The moderators really didn't have a choice.
There is also the issue if they are using a second monitor or their phones to use the calculator/tables. Honestly, it is basically impossible to enforce.
I feel like tools should be allowed in a case-by-case, game-by-game, tool-by-tool basis.
For example, the Sploosh-Kaboom tool for Wind Waker. In order to finish a 100% run, about 30-40 minutes in, you have to basically play battleship 3-4 times in a certain amount of shots. Runners hate Sploosh-Kaboom because it's pure RNG in a mostly skill-based run (not to mention it can use up a ton of Rupees needed for other things later in the run), and viewers might think it's boring to watch someone play single player battleship for 10+ minutes just to finish a run. A tool was developed that figures out what RNG step a player is on and can more or less tell what a given Sploosh-Kaboom board would be based on previous boards. A vote was made to allow the tool, and it passed. A boring 10 minute portion of the run can now be done in about 5.
In Minecraft's case, I personally don't think the tool should be allowed, or at the very least a category split should be made for use of the tool versus not being able to use it. Wind Waker's case is a 4+ hour 100% speedrun with the possibility of a run completely burning due to bad RNG, even if the prior 30 minutes were absolutely perfect. Minecraft is a 10-15 minute run where many attempts can be made in a few hours and adapting to RNG is a) *possible* and b) *part of the run.*
Doesn't even matter what game it is if people want to use a tool that's just a new category. If people don't want to use a tool then they're on a different category ,it's really not that hard to figure out
@@anonony9081 most of the people are talking about RSG
I think I agree with you. If its smth thats entirely rng in a long run? yes it should be allowed. With minecraft this is just a skill thing I think and it shouldnt
Many attempts in and hour is still like one good run that gets to the nether then terrible stronghold and go again.
While I mostly agree with you and I don't like the use of these calculators, hell I don't even like the use of the debug screen (as someone from outside the community tho). It was said in the video that this was decided by a vote just as well. This is not an arbitrary decision by the mods, it was chosen by the community.
I’ve always disagreed with allowing pauses. Make all MC speedruns RTA for starters, this would limit (or at least minimize) the effect of external resources.
The problem with pure RTA is then load times become a factor, meaning you need a really good computer to viably compete as well as introducing an element of psudorandomness. You need some way of cutting out loading screens.
@@Arttano Would be a shame if there was randomness in minecraft speedruns... Oh wait.
For random seed I think no pauses is fine.
Agreed. Brentilda had so much pause time to use a tool to help do divine travel. To me, this is basically cheating and while I do believe Brentilda is an excellent player, I have no respect for the methods or that run. Minecraft speedrunning has lost so much integrity in my mind.
To people whining about load times as an excuse, many other games cut out load times without allowing pauses, it’s pretty easy to distinguish, try harder.
@@uwu_senpai okay but like longer load times isnt random its based on hardware and making having better hardware a factor for better times makes it pay to win at least in part
No, it literally wouldn't. Ninb bot allows you to create very precise measurements on only a matter of seconds
Shaking my head in disbelief for half of this video. I thought the debug menu was bad lol wow.
Incredible video as always Karl. Happy New Year
Certain aspects of the debug menu are bad. But checking the exact angle and doing math is a lot cooler than just guessing, but all of the other debug stuff is lame
I always thought it was dumb that spreadsheets were allowed and chat was allowed to use calculators and tell the streamer the answers but I wasn't allowed to use a calculator (and by calculator here I don't mean like a program, I just mean an actual physical calculator). To me the question should have been to either allow calculators or to disallow external help in the form of spreadsheets and chat input. Personally I'd be a purist and vote to stick with only using what the game itself had to offer. But there was a vote and there was a result, so now I'm using the Ninjabrain calculator. This isn't what I envisioned it meant by calculator, I thought it meant I could just plug numbers into an actual calculator to save me doing the mental maths, so on that basis I wasn't too against calculators, but the reality of what it's become does remove some of the skill required. Shame because I just learnt how to do axis calculated the day before the change haha. My initial reaction was annoyance at the change, but then trying Ninjabrain out I quite liked it because doing mental maths during a run annoyed me too (I never used spreadsheets). But after two months I'm sad of the direction it's taken because I could have had two months practice with axis calculated and be super comfortable with that by now (although that does use spreadsheets) or even still be happy with the 17.5 block jumps triangulation
I'm sorry to hear that missed out on two months of being annoyed.
@@shorthanyfantano6944 I'm sorry to see you exist. We all have regrets.
@@shorthanyfantano6944 I’m sorry for your parents you were born
As regards the calculator rule, I always thought it was a bit silly. After all, during a math heavy task, why shouldn't I pull out my trusty TI-84? However, seeing what is actually meant by "calculator" in this context, I agree wholeheartedly that they have no place in a legitimate competition.
Yeah. It's ok to use a calculator in a test, or any other tool to help you, but it would make no sense to make a math competition and then allow calculators to be used, because then the best mathematician will be the fastest typer, and anyone could do that.
@@morwitzz And even if you allow calculators, you put a limit on the computing power in that case (like only a TI-84 or less powerful for example) and don't allow running a super-computer powered solver...
Yea, I was initially thinking it was going to be inputting the numbers into a graphing calculator, and the problem being something like not being able to prove they didn't set things up in advance (like how you have to clear your calc before a test), but no, this is just straight up a conversion calculator.
If you are a dedicated speedrunner, you can learn to do anything a simple calculator can give you in your head with sufficient precision, and this remove ambiguity of being tool-assisted or not. There are a lot of situations where banning calculators is silly, but for speedrunning competition, it makes sense.
I was also thinking wouldn't be way slower to sit in place smashing a bunch of numbers in your calculator instead of just doing them in your head? Could be good for new runners to get used to the other mechanics but useless for the pros. But with that sort of calculation? out may as well just have a program reading RAM and telling you exactly what RNG you have.
The goal of speedrunning Minecraft over other games is to test and watch someone's quick-planning, routing and task optimization. With the addition of a calculator to maximize the first two, a piece of what makes watching and running enjoyable is lessened. It's nice to see when a world record is being lowered by the community, but a run being fun comes first.
Quick-planning, routing, and task optimization, all things almost every other game has. I get your point, but please use valid reasoning for it.
Edit: Alright, a lot of people have misunderstood me, and lot of people have come up with decent counter arguments. I was a bit naive in the fact that most games have "planning ahead of time" rather than "quick-planning" which is true. I was certainly not saying, however, using a calculator is good for speedrunning, I am heavily against what the speedrun mods are doing about that. Can none of you really see an objective fact without assuming the writer is on the opposite side? I wasn't arguing for calculators, I was simply stating a fact, misguided, perhaps, but a fact. That's all.
to be the devil's advocate for a moment, the watching of a speed run being fun is tertiary to the point. Watching say glitched doom 2016 runs, where they hop through levels at breakneck speed is fairly boring, (infact watching anything that isn't 100 percent glitchless imo in doom 2016 is pretty boring. This is why Byteme is one of my favorite speedrunners) But it's still valid to the point of speedrunning, finishing the game faster than someone else.
Some people are incredible at math, and others struggle with basic algerbra. I feel like this eases that discrepancy in which repetition doesn't overcome a learning disability. However, even trying to play the devil's advocate here, I can't come up with a single reason that the category shouldn't be split in to TAS and Tool-less.
@@ninenezumi well that just makes their point stand more doesnt it? If almost every game has those elements, it implies theyre an important part of speedrunning in general, so removing them ny using a calculatir just isnt a good idea really
@@ninenezumi "other games"
Then get a WR in those games. If you need a 3rd party software to beat a game then you suck at the game and don't deserve a world record.
Period.
@@ninenezumi These things are extraordinarily more previlant in MC. It's a sandbox game that's procedurally generated. You have to think "what am I going to do next" there are MANY MANY things that can randomly force you to take a different path. You have to route the run *as you're doing it* there is no second run on that seed. Only equally important thing to other games is task optimization. Depending on what items you have, you may need to adjust the task to optimize.
MC speedrunning is a speedrun about coming up with a plan and rewriting the plan in a moments notice.
(Great wall of text incoming)
As a speedrunner in a community that is no stranger to arguing fervently about rules, I think this situation is a little bit more complicated than you have portrayed it.
Ultimately, the people who make the decisions for the rules of Minecraft speedrunning should be the people who speedrun Minecraft, and if that's the way it currently is, that's their choice. Viewer enjoyment of a speedrun is definitely an important factor that should be taken into account, but it is not the only factor to be taken into account, or even the largest factor.
One thing that I have observed in my own speedrunning community is something I'll call "rule creep", where over the course of long time spans, more "modern" game rulings eventually become normalized, and then making even more things allowed seems reasonable (like first F3 screen, and then calculator tools). This can be hard to spot, as often viewers don't have the knowledge to understand fully what is going on in a speedrun, and the rules are usually made to enhance the player experience, so most runners will have no objections.
That being said, I think one of the most important factors in making rules for speedruns is the experience of the runner. If a rule makes a game more fun to run, then usually it would be a good rule. Of course, you can't start allowing noclip in every speedrun, but there is a point somewhere in between no rule changes and allowing noclip that is the optimal rule change. People will disagree about where this point is, and personally I lie on the side of traditionalism in speedrunning (less things allowed), but people differ greatly in opinion on this subject.
Regarding Minecraft specifically, I agree that allowing the stronghold calculator programs drastically changes the run, and when comparing it to a no-F3 style run, its almost completely different. But calling them tool assisted speedruns is misinformed at best, and disingenuous at worst - thats obviously only a TAS by name, and not what a real TAS is.
Making a new category for calculators allowed is also problematic, because you can't just create new categories for every rule change, because then there will be 80 different categories for every different rule, and while there may be a lot of minecraft runners, in my experience there is a limit to how many categories can be active at once, and that limit is small. Plus, you wouldn't want every runner to pick their category based on what rules they want to follow and then have no competition because there are 20 categories; they should all compete on the same boards with fair rules, whenever possible, unless there is a different version or a significantly different rule that players show genuine interest in running.
Category shaming aside, I think the solution many other commenter have pointed out about splitting into a "no-F3 category" and an "F3+calculators" category could be good, as those two categories are sufficiently different from each other, and a no F3 category could lead to new strategies, such as throwing eyes, moving while keeping the mouse still, then throwing eyes again and counting pixels to triangulate.
As a final thought, I just want to remind everyone that what the Minecraft speedrunning community does is their own business, and they will almost certainly do what is in their best interest, as they are the ones who know what it's like to actually run the game
Agreed, they should split the categories, in fact probably should have split them from the moment people started using the F3 window..
How many games already use external information to aid speed runs? So many games have been taken apart to determine the chance, or even the seeded chance of a given thing happening in so many games that lots of people know to throw out a run if they don't get good RNG on certain early events.
You can't, and shouldn't ban memorizing where to go an what to do in a game, as that's half or more of speed running, but you CAN'T memorize where to go in MC, as it's randomized, and the only tool you have to figure out where to go injects huge, late game RNG.
To compare it to something else, the Windwaker 100% guys have spent forever working out how to manipulate the RNG on sploosh kaboom and the auctions, that's no different than this, and was done for the same reasons, to help reduce late-game RNG.
Basically the argument here is, "Well, you should learn to do complex geometry, in your head, or else this major, late part of the run should basically be subject to RNG for you."
Geometry has almost nothing to do with playing Minecraft. I admit I don't much care about MC speed runs, but if I were watching, it wouldn't be to see how good the player is at estimating complex geometry in their head, or else how lucky they get on the random checks that their eyes break if they're bad at it. 🤷♂
@@Nevir202 well about that last point, geometry doesn't normally have much to do with Minecraft, but if it helps you go faster then it has everything to do with speedrunning minecraft. Speedruns inherently require bizzare and unique skills that are not normally required
I agree with making the distinction between F3 and no-F3, since F3 can be considered a debug tool or console/cheat access. making the distinction between "you can perform these kinds of calculations this way but not these other kinds of calculations this other way" makes no sense to me.
tru. but MC speedrunners must then reckon, that fewer people will watch their runs.
@@dontbeasadsoulja fair, but the point of speedrunning isn't really to get people to watch your runs; that's just a side effect. That being said, I can't actually nail down what the point of speedrunning is besides "go fast" but it's probably a little different for everyone, for some people it may be to make videos people will watch, idk
I saw the video about pausing and unpausing during a run to stop the clock. Allowing a calculator basically means you can toss your pearl, pause, do your calculations, then go back to the game KNOWING where the stronghold is without having lost any time. Ridiculous.
I feel like this doesn't belong in speedrunning as I believe everything acheived in a speedrun should be kept in the game. ACE in majora's mask or OoT is acceptable because they are achieved by in-game methods, if they were instead achieved by just rigging the n64 to your computer then it would be different, this is no different.
but in that same breath they use calculators to solve for SRM, i don't think this is far off, just a more active use of it
@@xBeesafree the major difference is that majora and OoT all have planned routes since the game is the same every time, so calculator usage outside the run to plot a route is perfectly acceptable to me. however, in Minecraft, calculator usage during the run of a game where one of its main aspects is its randomness ruins the whole point of a Minecraft speedrun, if I were to say this in terms of any other speedrun it would be like getting halfway through the run, and hooking the console up to a TAS script for the other half.
@@xBeesafreeHowever for the case of SRM all of the calculation is done before the speedrun takes place. Many speedruns have point totals or very specific numbers that were calculated with outside tools before the run takes place. SRM angles and setups don't depend on rng that changes each run, and are all known before hand, meaning that while the run takes place, its just the runners knowledge and muscle memory.
However, something that I would equate to a similar level is the rng prediction tool for sploosh kaboom in wind waker.
@@FracturedStaffOfArmadyl but in the case of the spreadsheet, all the values ARE calculated before the run, granted you dont need to rreference the notes for SRM during the run. I 100% believe notes should be allowed. I do not support any type of external program that reads game data or plugin within minecraft. But notes should be allowed.
I think the use of external tools is fine, providing that the speedrunner has to manually input the data. Wind Waker his a minigame called Sploosh Kaboom that involves a ton of RNG, and an external solver tool is allowed because the speedrunner must manually input data into the program to make it work. I think the most problematic part of this Minecraft tool is that you can just copy the F3 screen to the clipboard and have the program read it automatically. I don't think that part should be allowed.
As a programmer who's interested in speedrunning: I agree.
The clipboard usage is clearly a way of communicating between the game and the external tool without "direct" communication.
Realistically, that's no different from an autoclicker - or even a TAS, just pulling data instead of pushing it.
If external tools are allowed, players should have to manually enter data in. This at least adds a penalty
which skilled players might be able to avoid.
I agree... but i would go one step further. You have to open the calculator on the same screen and the game and the calculator cant be on screen at the same time.
@@thecalculatecavy2837 This
@@thecalculatecavy2837 Absolutely this
@@thecalculatecavy2837 And one more for the Algo
@@thecalculatecavy2837 This
Math class: why am I learning this? I'll never use it?
Young teacher: looks like you'll never be a mine craft speedruner
Math teacher: _"you have to learn this, because it's not like you will be allowed to use calculator on every speedrun!"_
Speedrunners: 😏
They aren’t even learning, external tools are doing all the work for them
Personally, I feel that the distaste for spreadsheets in runs is a bit uncalled for. A spreadsheet is more akin to a book of trig tables than a digital program performing trigonometry calculations directly from clipboard information.
Think about how trig and calculus tests used to be vetted. Using a book of trigonometry tables was almost certainly allowed in those cases
why isnt there a leaderboard with no F3 or tools? seems like a simple fix to me
Additional leaderboards fragment the player base. If new boards were created each time there was a disagreement there would be literally hundreds of categories to track.
There isn't an official one, but I've seen an uprise in people playing hypervanilla (no f3 gamma 1) and it's genuinely fun to watch unlike the pause abuse or TAs runs
For real, it didn't make sense when I heard him talk about F3 being allowed.
@@morbideddie this isn’t a little disagreement though, it’s either tool assisted or not, that’s something that completely changes the game 100%
@@CHloE748 it’s not tool assisted in the typical sense of the term. And if we are using a broader definition that includes any tools then timers are also a form of tool that informs a run. There are loads of external tools runner use across several runs and those are generally accepted as non TAS.
Calculators save the runner doing some on the fly maths but most top runners would have chat do the maths anyway. The previous WR used a table to work out the ideal divine coordinates. This levels the playing field between runners with a large and small chat and doesn’t change the structure of the runs.
I’m still not a fan of it personally, but I don’t see why it’s a massive issue here and not with other games. And I don’t like the approach of just making new categories every time a new rule is debated. It is always suggested and almost always a bad idea.
I love watching a good TAS just to see the craziness that is technically possible but beyond a human ability to pull off (at least reliably), but I also like to see the actual speedruns and how crazy good people get. I agree that this is just making every run a TAS, which ruins the point of a leaderboard.
I agree that they maybe should have made a separate category for this. I enjoyed the GDQ vids I've seen of the runner having to manually find the stronghold, I thought that was impressive.. A real shame I might not see that again in future runs
I feel bad for the mods of minecraft speedrunning
Having to handle such a large speedrunning community sounds wild
"Call it what it is, a tool assisted speed run". I love this idea!! We see this concept used WIDELY in the entire Speed Running community, i don't see what Minecraft should be any different when external tools are clearly being used.
@ExtraDash I think TAS by its most raw definition is a speedrun that uses any sort of tool to assist the runner, so these can be counted as TAS just like a vehicle can be a car or a plane. There are some TASs where doing precise save states and frame inputs are too difficult (look at L4D2 TASs for example). Not to mention, I feel like the distinction, although useful, might imply that ETSs are a more valid form of TAS. A TAS is a TAS, you can't say it's only half.
@@punishedkid It would be really dumb to have people that are just using calculators in the same category as actual TAS runs.
@@nuansd A new category that doesn't include runs using things like TRC or lotas could solve those issues, maybe something like ETAS (external tool assisted speedrun) as a category.
@@nuansd they're both TAS's though, just to different extents.
there have been TAS runs played in real-time in games like half-life using tools to aid the player, it doesn't have to be perfectly scripted inputs for every frame to be considered TAS
I think this is what will happen - tool-assisted runs will continue to exist, but the prestige category for Minecraft will just shift to "any% toolless" and WRs there will be the ones making headlines.
Allowing outside tools like this, without putting them in their own category, is extremely shortsighted and hilariously dumb.
At that point you might as well just cut out the middle man. Just slap your entire seed into Chunkbase and look up the closest End Portal yourself. Go ahead and find the closest Blaze spawner and Bastion while you're at it, we'll wait.
hell at this point they might as well just say "Hey guys you can use /locate stronghold now" it's pretty much what they're doing with calculators anyway
slippery slope argument is invalid
@@swordyshield “Slipper Slope is invalid” is invalid.
18:40: I mean, I sympathize, but I think hell would freeze over before a stream chat stopped backseating
I think those runs should have their own category. Something like Any% CAS (Calculator Assisted Speedrun).
Better yet, just call them what they are TAS (Tool Assisted Speedruns) and categorize them as such.
@@Kenshiro3rd there is a huge difference of tas runs.
@@dimitrifake53 you mean like the huge difference between Calculator Runs & non-Calculator runs? Not all tools slow the game down to or such. Tools Assisted Speedruns are just that speed runs that make use of tools external or otherwise that alter the mechanics of the game to assist the player in their speedrun. And yes using Data gained from DevTOOLS & a calculator to tell you exactly where to go in a scavenger hunt most assured DOES change the mechanics.
@@Kenshiro3rd well the problem was that tas runs alredy existed and their are a different beast. You still have to manually play while other tas use computers to play through the whole game frame by frame.
@@dimitrifake53 you do realize that not all TAS are the same right? Not all TAS have the computer play them. Ones that do are called Automated runs anyway. TAS just means you used Tools (External or otherwise) to assist you in your speedrun.
As someone who has spent countless hours speedrunning a game, I can’t imagine letting something like this ever be legal. If anyone even suggested this to me as a moderator/runner, I would almost be offended tbh. I get it, it’s hard to do this stuff on the fly and the randomness is annoying, but if it’s so annoying just run a different game or category. Don’t ruin the integrity of the leaderboard or game. I’m disappointed by this news, and I hope it’ll be changed in the future
To me it depends on the tool, obviously if runners don't even need eyes to make it to the end, the game is basically pointless. But also the randomness of the old way is unrealted to skill. I think if there were only certain tools allowed, they could remove some randomness without ruining the integrity of the runs. Tools are fine until they play the game for you, just need to strike a good balance.
If you spent all your time speedrunning minecraft instead of whatever game you’re talking about, then you would understand why minecraft unbanned calculators. Don’t make uninformed opinions
@@Shnenanigans Uninformed? I've tried my best to keep up with the minecraft stuff for a while and I can tell you that decreasing the necessary skill level didn't make the category any better or give it any more integrity. Explain to me how a tool assist would make this any better as a speedgame. It doesn't, maybe it makes it more enjoyable for some people to run, but it hurts the game
@@tastydirtydan988 I agree that there can be a balance in specific cases, but I also think that when it removes a skill needed to complete a run quickly, it goes over that line
The vote was not made becase "the randomness is annoying", it was made becase there were tools that were technically allowed, but did not fall under the spirit of the rules. It was the speedrunners who decided this rule, not you
"Well cheating is difficult to detect so we can't police it" is what I'm getting from this.
and to that my response is "mods r gae"
Says the same guys that wrote a whole mathematics paper on how and why dream cheated.
@@Briskeeeen whats your point here? other than someone bothered putting in effort?
aka, an appeal to futility.
@@dylanc2806 They went all out in a huge paper about a popular streamer cheating, but chickened out at something as easy as forcing you to show your windows and monitors.
If tools aren't allowed stop reading the programmed code and logs completely. U can't keep ur two legs on two cliffs without a bridge. Either ban using the angle and get super large speedruns or use tools and get faster ones. Pause abuse makes sense but this criticisms on calculators doesn't. Pokemon abuses calculators a lot trying to understand how much damage one move can do to a pokemon. This is but one example. I admit that tools using programming shouldn't be legal but that runs for the f3 screen too if u allow people to read rpgrammes well might as well let bots play too.
if the modern speedrunning boards came out of obscure forums and bare communities, then new leaderboards can be made to accommodate different rulesets. plus, if it takes more skill to pull this manually, then it will naturally attract more attention.
personally I don't see much flair in invisible mental math. the results could easily be ascribed to blind luck over brain power, so as long as the tools aren't physically tied to gameplay then who cares. it's arguable that taping down controller buttons in some speedruns is a more egregious departure from the sport than this.
i feel like the decision was made based on the context, like “if it’s legal to use spreadsheets should it be legal to use calculators” instead of “should tools be allowed during speed runs” but also i just watch these videos for fun so i’m not super knowledgeable on what’s happening
They should have just banned spread sheets too.
That was my impression aswell. Afterall you cant check if someone used a spreadsheet so I was guessing they allowed calculators in an effort to balance out the playing field.
@@tashfeenj8259 Yes im so fucking confused why they didnt just vote on that instead lmao
they probably didn't just ban it cause they for the simple fact of clearly people can just find loopholes around this technicality right? So wha'ts the point of trying to fight something if it's fundamentally impossible to ban or even police. What runners just made a bot that they could just watch my stream and it'll tell me where it is? Technically i'm not using a calculator or spreadsheets. Plus how do you know if people aren't using the calculator or spreadsheet? The problem is this is stuff that's just hard to police cause without basically patting down the runner and like having them show everything on their desktop (which is illegal in some countries cause that's invasion of privacy) there's no real way to know or say they aren't using one
@@lifeiaskedfor i dunno bro i jus said i watched these for fun😐
Hear hear! I can't agree more with literally everything said in this video. Karl is absolutely right in saying these are quite literally tool assisted speedruns, and I think F3 itself is also a tool that should be banned. At the very LEAST given it's own category if nothing else.
Anyone who thinks this should run the game for a little while and see if they don't drastically change their opinion. A no-f3 category is not a bad idea at all, the problem is no one wants to run it at a serious level because it's 100x more of an RNG fest. It's almost like this video is by and for people who don't have any clue about speedrunning this game, and the video doesn't give them any necessary context at all.
Another thing most viewers don't realize is that even the vast majority of anti-calculator people in the community support things that would be considered "tools", they mostly support the use of spreadsheets and tables which are just precalculations for you to look at after you get your angle change. Non-calculator triangulation doesn't require tremendous skill, doesn't have much skill gap and requires more luck. Even with no human error it's still luck if you hit the stronghold, unlike with calculator. The iron-man argument against calculators would be that "luck which can be influenced by skill is the name of the game, so make people triangulate manually". But I doubt you could also get people to vote out the use of tables/spreadsheets mid run, or have a split based on the usage of this. This is the core of the whole issue which this video doesn't even begin to touch.
Hopefully no one tells Karl or most of his viewers that RSG runners use multiple instances of the game with mods to make it run faster, generate worlds faster, and macros to do countless resetting inputs for you if you click once. I think that might be "tool assisted". It's almost like the boundaries we set are slightly arbitrary and 75% of top runners voted to arbitrarily allow calculators.
Hear Hear! The one to use mods to remove f3 from the game speaks!. On a serios note, I am completely with you. But the strategies they have come up with are pretty useful for Survival Servers, so I don't mind it that they startet using f3, but would be happy if they would stop again. If it is way more fun, make a category for it, I wouldn't want them to have less fun, I just want strategies easier to understand, because I heard some crazy shit about how things supposedly works, when it absolutely doesn't
F3 is used in casual Minecraft play. Banning somethings casuals use would be a bit odd
I tend to agree with f3 - each new version of Minecraft has made f3 far more useful - older versions have an almost useless f3 while newwere versions have LOTS of info. Just need to split f3 and non f3 use
denying using f3 is a bit too far, it's literally an intended feature in the game
I have an opinion about this as an old League of Legends player. There are jungle camps and neutral objectives in the game that have a set respawn timer. The player in the jungler role is basically speedrunning these objectives to gain experience and gold. In early League, it was common for an experienced player to either put into chat or his head "Drake 12:30" after defeating the dragon objective at 7:30 for example. It used to be a basic part of every good Jungler's skillset that you had to rely upon. Riotgames then changed the game to feature built in respawn timers that everyone could access at any time. A lot of people were very angry and afraid that this would decrease the possible skill expression for the Jungle role who now had objectively less to do during the game. It's been many years since this change and the game has yet to hit a skill ceiling, on the contrary, high level Junglers are doing incredible things. I see the League change as more of an "unleashing" of other skills where now you can focus much more on improving a different skillset.
The difference here is substantial game changes consistently happen in League. So, the most efficient stratagy changes weekly. If league only had one playable character and was speedrun on one patch we would hit a ceiling.
@@TheAleQc but doesn't Minecraft get frequent updates as well and speedruns are done in those new updates? But you're right, it's not an apples to apples comparison. The situations have overlaps though
Most minecraft updates have no effect on the luck balance or strategy of minecraft. As new strategies are developed, they are often compared to previous patches. If it saves time reliably, and it is not possible in the similar patches laid out in the current leaderboard, the moderation team gets together and determines if a split for the new update is required. League has balance shifts that can be pretty significant to a player strategy every few weeks. The core identity of league stays fairly constant, but mains can abuse 1% gains in a way that minecraft speedruns will never have to worry about given the amount of luck already in the game.
this is irrelevant the map in league never changes the skill comes from perfecting what you know in minecraft improvising on a large scale is what make's it special you could never get away with that in a high level game
legitimate question. In reference to your statement near the end of never being able to get behind any external tool for use in a speedrun. What is your opinion then on the Windwaker tool they use for getting past the stupid battleship game? I have always seen that as an exception to the rule of no tools as it was genuinely not skill based and potentially a straight out run killer.
In this case, the strong hold isn't the rim killer in this. Often times it's the start seed, fortress, and dragon perch. Finding the Strong Hold is the most constant part. There are 3 major skills, movement, calculations, and the one-cycle. You won't get high on the leader board without the first. The one-cycle is the easiest to practice. Calculations is the last skill barrier. Without it the run becomes who was lucky without the knowledge to grasp it.
I guess a difference is that the wind wakes tool removed a purely RNG part of the game while the mine craft calcs remove a skill part
But the stronghold location is exactly RNG…
@@f.n.8540 Nope. They spawn in set rings around spawn and the ender eyes lead straight to them. If you can explain what part of finding the stronghold is still left to random chances feel free.
I feel like they're going to need to make seperate categories for those wanting to use calculators or anything else to help them speedrun minecraft.
Im surprised that wasnt the default decision by the mods
@CLOV3R713 y'know, isn't there already a category for specific seeds? If you take the guesswork out of the game, then there's not really a difference between the two
@CLOV3R713 well yeah, there are the set seed categories and the random seed categories. the current set seed wr (for 1.16) is 1:56 by Rayoh
Tool Assisted is the only category that would fit.
Traditional vs. TA
@ExtraDash TAS means tool assisted speedrun, it seems you are the one who don't know what it means, these calculators are (tools) that are (assisting) players in their (speedruns), i don't get why people would be okay with any kind of tools used to speedrun a game, what is the point anymore.
I think tools should allowed but in their own separate category. I'm something of a purist and don't like people trying to use anything but their own two hands to achieve their times. If someone wants to use a tool that's fine. I just think those should have their own categories like many other games have. Allowing for tools to be used in runs without separating them from runs that don't is kind of a slap in the face of the runners who worked their asses off practicing strategies, perfecting travel efficiency, optimizing menu navigation etc... Imagine if the tilted cart strat or the disassembled second controller trick were allowed in Goldeneye speedrunning. It would shit on everything all the runners worked for years to accomplish. All the WRs that took years to achieve would cease to be the amazing feats that they are. I mean Karl if you read this think about how shitty it would feel if they started to allow those tricks again and all your records would go from being awesome feats of skill and practice to looking like what records from pre look down look like today.
All of the top runs are invalidated every single time a new time save is discovered, whether the time save uses a calculator or not. That possibility is something that speedrunners accept when they run a game, and they're usually happy to have their run made obsolete if a huge new time save is found. Having runs invalidated isn't an argument at all, it happens literally every day in speedrunning.
@@josephblattert6311 I think their point is that the run isn't being invalidated by a new discovery or skill, it's being made obsolete by assets that's the previous runner's most likely were well aware existed, and definitely were capable of using, they just weren't allowed to, we have separate speedrunning catagories for a reason, it is completely out of a person's control if modifications are made to the game or what rules are set in place for running that game on a competitive forum, even lesser speedrun games like the dark souls series have several catagories for this reason, in ds3 speedrunning they have both a current patch catagory and an any patch catagory since several game breaking glitches have been patched out of the game, a person has no chance of beating the world record on current patch since you can't skip half the game, so we have a separate category for it
@@peristeronic37 Are you just saying "it's not fair to the old records"?
@@shorthanyfantano6944 kind of but not really, I'm saying it's unfair to the old type of runs, they could very easily make it it's own catagory since it operates under different rules and principles but they just aren't, the way I see it it's like if they suddenly added bikes and cars to the 100m sprint
@@shorthanyfantano6944 like I personally think TAS runs are awesome and allow a different unique experience than normal speedruns, as well as helping show what is or isn't theoretically possible when a game gets runned to that point, but it just isn't the same thing, because it requires a very different skill set, take super mario for instance, it's also not like things like this make running more accessible, if anything it makes it less accessible because it creates an ever growing list of things you need to have downloaded in order to keep up
Imagine running a category where the randomness of the seed is the point, trying to use tools to effectively eliminate the RNG of the seed when there is already a fixed seed category.
I'm really curious how something like this compares to the Sploosh Kaboom tool for Wind Waker 100% runs in how people view the impact on runs.
afaik sploosh's tool was designed by the community, as the section is a huge run sink due to being entirely rng, and is really appreciated
@@quicksyss Exactly - but at what point is the RNG just a part of the run? In both cases - _the game was intentionally designed that way to have that RNG._
That's why it's a question of at what point it's something that's acceptable for the community to use tools to circumvent. That's what decides when that tool just becomes a part of the normal route that everyone uses, and when does using that tool require its own separate category?
I can understand how these calculations would be incredibly unfun for many, but without question this should be limited to a specific category of runs.
Most people voted to allow calculators so for most it would not be unfun only for some
@Jailsongmc_ 01_ Calculations, not calculators. Calculators are tools that assist you by doing the (unfun) calculations for you. That by definition has always been a seperate category in speedrunning.
@@johnathanbennett5908 Fast thinkers will always have an advantage though
@@doobster3650 It's called communism and it is an extremely dark religion.
@@johnathanbennett5908 Hey man, read less Karl Marx
I experimented with triangulation using these methods, and I have a few runs worth of statistics that can give you an idea of how precise these methods can be. I'll have to dig it up. IMO, there should be a "pure" category that does now allow external tools, or the F3 stuff, or whatever. Separate would allow assistance of any kind, in-game or otherwise.
My thoughts exactly. Just split the categories and put F3 with the other tools.
I don't really think F3 should be allowed, or at the very least there should be a no-F3 category (Hell, maybe there is - I don't ACTUALLY care, it's just something I think when I see these vids)
It kinda goes against the spirit of a run (in my opinion, ofc) to have all your statistics available in a way that would be invisible during 'normal' gameplay.
@@Ashfold_Eberesche the thing is f3 isent some external program,it's a perfectly vanilla game feature.i can see why its allowed,no real reason for it to be banned(you thinking it's lame doesent count as a proper reason).
@@zacharyadams3422 Oh, I know. Like I said, I don't REALLY care about it - I'm not in the MC community, and only ever think about it when these videos pop up. It's purely my subjective opinion that it's kinda against the spirit of the game.
I can definitely see why it's allowed too, and maybe if I had a 'horse in the race' so to speak, my opinion might be different. I've heard people say that F3 actually allows for the skill ceiling to be higher, and that's a fairly good argument (although external tools invalidate this, but obviously that's a separate issue)
I didn't really say it SHOULD be banned or anything. I mean, I guess you could read my post that way but it wasn't really the intention. I just have a preference, that's all.
@@Ashfold_Eberesche yeah,when it comes to opinions you do you,I ain't gonna Stab you for it.
I personally don't think the tools would be that bad if they had their own speed running section for it. It becomes a problem when these runs are uploaded with the runs that aren't using the tools. I guess we'll just have to wait and see what happens.
Are Goldeneye speedruns that use rubber bands/tape on the TV screen as a makeshift reticule in a different category than runs that don't use these tools? This would seem to me to be pretty similar.
I feel like this was an inevitability after allowing the f3 debug menu.
but F3 only gives you the information, you still have to do the mental data processing yourself
I agree it should be strictly game information, not debug values. You're not skilled in the game calculating values, you're just good at Math.
@@ishopeatsea Bro information is the most valuable thing in speedrunning
I agree. While i think this decision now is bad - to me its not a huge turning point but rather a logical follow up to the decision to allow F3. The moment this information was available for the player it was obvious that people would maximize the use of it. And as soon as you need skills that have no connection to the game you loose all ways to properly monitor and regulate it.
Best thing would be if people go to a "no F3" category as the main speedrun and the current ruleset is put up as a kind of semi-TAS.
Honestly, I'm a bit old school and I think the debugging screen has already made it in many respects a TAS by letting you peak behind the scenes to get data you can't organic get by playing the game naturally. The fact that external calculators are allowed doesn't feel like that big of a leap to me as a result. But no, I don't think tools should be allowed.
I mean, the debug screen is available in any fresh installation of the game without even enabling it in a settings menu, it is completely available to anyone at any time.
@@dablux3892 yes, but it's called a debug for a reason. It's showing you behind the scenes information that you couldn't get naturally, i.e. through not accessing debugging features. It's a tool that is assisting your speed run.
The debug screen isn't an external tool however, and actually helps in speedrunning this extremely luck-based game. And a player would still need to have a certain kind of skill to properly process the data it gives you. I say it's a fair trade.
With calculators, requiring the player's skill to process that data would be taken away entirely. Not a fair trade.
@@beauvoirferril It's not being skilled at the game, it's being proficient at maths. What would be your argument if stronghold infos were directly fed to the player in the billion info on the debug menu?
@@beauvoirferril So is the pause menu, it was a feature built right into the game, and you'd still need a certain kind of skill to properly process the information to get a fast run, but pausing breaks the intent of the run (Which is why I personally think a run should be counted from the moment the seed is loaded external to the game). If you want a unique category for pauses and debug menus I have no problem with that, but personally I don't find it interesting to watch a run where half the screen is taken up with debug information and I think it cheapens the overall talent required to get fast times. The fact that it's built in doesn't change the fact that accessing it takes you out of natural game play and into debug mode play.
For me, it comes down to what tools are within the game and who is playing the game. Macros are banned because they are 1) not within the game and 2) not the speedrunner playing. Aimbots are the same. Modifying controllers is generally banned in speedrunning as well, correct? Let's look at calculator/ spreadsheet use. It is 1) not within the game and 2) not the player doing it. Based on these assumptions as to what dictates an unmodified speedrun I believe that they should be banned.
I would agree with you, but there can be cases in which an external program doesn't make as much harm as these ones do.
In Wind Waker 100%, if I'm not mistaken, speedrunners can use an external program that would be fed ingame data to calculate the probabilities of hitting a ship in "Sploosh Kaboom", a game that would, otherwise, be pure RNG, RNG which could easily kill a perfect run.
@Caio da Costa Gossi But like you said, the minigame is pure RNG. While the location of a stronghold may be RNG, finding it takes skill. Finding the ships in the minigame can’t really be done through skill
Mental gymnast here. So external programs should be allowed if you feel the speed run is too boring?
@@f.n.8540 Are you sure you replied to the right comment thread?
@@AutumnReel4444 the other commenters say external programs cracking rng in WW is ok, because it is a) vulnerable to bad rng, and b) doesn't take skill.
but faster strats are always more risky and based on rng. one guy divine travels to the stronghold, now everyone competing needs to do it.
skill is subjective, but, assuming that you don't play it slow and safe and want to use
as a non speed runner I feel like using the debug mode is the same thing. It's just about it being in the game. But that is NOT a clean play. You just use outside information and you DO calculate. What if you're an amazing player but can't calculate in your head? Is a piece of paper a tool? Is a pen a tool? If you use those to calculate it SURELY that is ALSO using outside tools?
The point of finding the stronghold is to use your game knowledge, and experience and understanding of the games mechanics to locate it. I don’t care what method they use, if you have the location literally given to you without any in game effort, then it is by definition assisted. Really feels like they missed the forest for the trees with this decision.
it was a voting of the comunity if im not mistaken. so we are the ones in the minority wanting it to be something the majority doesnt enjoy
@@rksworld4405 It takes the skill out of something heavily based on skill, it makes it far too easy.
Well put. 👍 Why Minecraft community thought that using a DEBUGGING TOOL (F3) in any form of competition was acceptable is beyond me. 🤦🏻♂️ All the other issues stem from this one baffling decision to allow players access to information that they were never intended to have. For TAS use whatever you like (hence the name “tool assisted”), but for non-TAS there should be NO tools allowed. There, problem(s) solved. Next. 🙃
@@rksworld4405 the kind of people who want to use software to improve their chances in-game are the same clowns that would make sockpuppets to brigade a vote.
@@GleeAllmighty Even the TASers wouldn't agree to it. We're about pushing the game to a theoretical fastest/most entertaining playthrough, we only want to use set seeds or premade maps and break them.
This would be an incredibly unoptimized LOTAD, not even TAS.
Even allowing the use of F3 has always seemed baffling to me. It's one thing to allow glitches, those might be unintentional, but at the end of the day they arise from the actual gameplay mechanics and are arguably just a part of them. F3 isn't really a gameplay mechanic though, it's a debugging tool. Allowing it to be used is analogous to allowing the use of console commands or cheat codes. I think if a guy just used the console to fly to the end in a game like Skyrim pretty much everyone would consider that cheating. Obviously F3 doesn't have as dramatic an effect, but I still consider it cheating since like noclip, it's a developer tool rather than a real mechanic.
That said there's nothing wrong with allowing some forms of cheating if it makes for a more interesting competition. I guess it just bothers me when it's unacknowledged, like if the category is labelled any%. I guess they couldn't call it something like any% cheats allowed, since it would inevitably be taken as a value judgement even if it wasn't intended as such, but if things like developer tools or external programs are used I really think that should be acknowledged somewhere in the name of the category.
Totally agree. The leader boards do note whether people use F3 or not and some runners don't use it but the vast majority do. I wish F3less was more prevalent but the majority of players use it even playing casually so it has become an accepted part of the game. I am in the minority of Minecraft players in that I have always considered using F3 as cheating and could never understand why it didn't have less info by default and allow co-ordinates only if cheats were enabled(there are ways to remove co-ordinates but they are hidden away in the settings). I find it much less interesting but people will use whatever is easier.
Don't take this as an offense or anything, but you probably don't play Minecraft, F3 is basically a feature by this point and will never be removed. I'd say 90% or even more of the community consider it a quality of life tool more than anything else.
Allowing F3 in a game with an Ender Pearl mechanic means that precise mathematical triangulation was inevitable. Mods should've had the foresight to ban F3 usage, or at least restrict F3 to a separate category. Something like the hop-four-times-to-the-side trick that Karl demonstrated seems like the perfect blend of applying outside trigonometry while also relying on player skill and execution.
I feel like there's plenty of other games/categories out there that would get crusty if they had and allowed similar debug tools to be legal in speedrunning.
@@subzerosanijs yeah F3 is heavily used in any type of technical play from farms to grinders to chunk loaders to messing with light levels. Use of F3 is far from cheating it's a basic feature that is intentionally updated for users to use just like other features.
Absolutely agree. I've loved watching speedruns for many years but have never watched Minecraft runs. I clicked this vid because Karl's content is interesting. I was instantly flabbergasted to learn what the F3 function was and that it was actually deemed acceptable in a normal Any% speedrun! To me, the addition of unbanning calculators was just icing on an already questionable cake. I'm not trying to take anything away from anyone. Just make separate categories, and everyone can run the game how they prefer while still remaining competitive within those categories.
bros got more chatters than couri
ThatsCrazy
It seems like such an easy fix, split ntcs and pal for wii sports, split calculator runs and non calc runs, just make it fair for everyone, afterall its all for fun and prestige
Edit: considering the split between unban/ban this is clearly not a big enough majority to just do it directly imo
I feel there are edge cases where external tools make the run more interesting or remove arbitrary RNG that would otherwise cause excessive resets in otherwise flawless runs.
Not sure that this qualifies under that, though. Finding the stronghold seems like a major part of the run, not an arbitrary bit of RNG, and there's gameplay elements already in place to help.
What this makes me think of is the ruling about allowing the RNG search for the Squid Hunt minigame in Wind Waker 100%. This is technically a tool. However, NOBODY liked doing Squid Hunt because it was so easy to never have enough information to successfully finish it on even a few passes, so the game could take anywhere from 5 to 30 minutes. That's ridiculous! Also, the game had a few million possible states, and just trying best battleship style probabilities wasn't THAT much better. So what they did was, someone built a tool that would figure out where in the RNG you were when you got to the game (rough estimate based on your current time, which would be +- a few thousand values. You play the game once, you figure out which precise value WAS called for that game, then play it again. Now you only have less than a hundred possibilities for which board your rolled, and it only takes 4-5 shots to narrow the possibility grid down to one, and so you get to finish the game in a much more consistent amount of time.
The ruling the Wind Waker community made was that this tool was allowed, because everyone wanted it, but you were NOT allowed to have the script run automatically. You HAD to punch in your values manually, same as you would for having any lookup tables or other cheat sheets offscreen. I think this is fine, because speedruns have always allowed cheat sheets. You are allowed timers for "guess how much time has passed" minigames, and this is really just a more complex version of that. But the main thing here is that the community wanted it--it made an unfun part of the game into something that both saves time, is more consistent, and is about the same level of player involvement.
IMO, the place where minecraft is falling short here is that they're allowing people to copy-paste directly from the debug menu into an outside program. Otherwise, this IS just an evolution of strategy, given that they debug menu's been allowed for so long. At the very least, people should be required to run the calculator entirely separately from the game, such as on a different computer, phone or tablet. I think that would be the most fair option.
EDIT: to note that even in this case the "most fair" option doesn't necessarily mean a GOOD option, since in this case it's not removing an unpredictable side quest, it's just taking out a large chunk of the skill that used to be there. It's just been optimized now and I'm not sure how to otherwise fix that, other than banning the debug menu again or something.
if we wanted no RNG there would be no random seed category
Isn’t the entire Minecraft speedrun already based on RNG?
@@rickpgriffin This is exactly what I thought of when the whole idea of the Minecraft speedrun being a TAS now was brought up. That minigame in Wind Waker is just agonizing to watch, play and sit through from both sides of the speedrun. Finding the Stronghold is such an integral part of the Minecraft speedrun that it might as well be automating a quarter of the run versus removing ridiculous RNG from multi-hour 100% WW run.
@@IggyHitokage That's the other thing. I wonder if at this point the genie's out of the bottle, and the fun has been optimized out of (a quarter of) the run. Because if it isn't this, it WOULD just be the spreadsheet lookup tables.
I love how speedrunners responded to the banning of calculators by just making massive log tables.
In all sincerity, this was an inevitable result of allowing the F3 screen. Either ban both, or ban neither.
Idk, I think allowing the f3 screen actually raises the skill ceiling. More data to look through that CAN give you an advantage, but you have to do those calculations by yourself on the fly. External tools of almost any kind lower the skill ceiling. I'm all for raising the skill ceiling on games. Let the best players do even better if they put in more work. I think lowering it in any capacity unless absolutely necessary is a great way to kill a speedrun game/category. Now that external tools are explicitly allowed, who knows what kind of programs the genius runners/programmers in the community will come up with.
or just ban spreadsheets..
@@Lodus_music literally how do you ban spreadsheets
@@Lodus_music rules not only have to make sense (which your idea clearly does) but need to be enforced. If speedruns where made on a stage live infront of judges this would be possible, but to verify a speedrun all you can use is the data from the players system.
So there is no way to distinguish between calculating fast in your head or having the spreadsheet available. To me there is only one solution: dont ban the use of the information, ban obtaining the information (F3)
@@PEOJII wdym, its pretty damn obvious when they open f3 press a few buttons and the coordinates for the stronghold are just there.
as usual i completely agree with you.
allowing tools like this without having a specific category for them seems like a way to just bring the WR times down and take away a chunk of the effort/skill it takes to get them in the first place.
Jobst didn't care about that when he gleefully embraced drawing a dot in the middle of his TV to know exactly where his bullet was going to go like some sort of cheatcode
@@shorthanyfantano6944 what is this a reference to?
completely agree, i can understand pausing other games timers for load screen variations... somewhat, but the category is arbitrary now. I'd love to see the dissidents form a new category called like, 'RSG Honorable' or something like that. I feel like all of this comes out the hustle for stream donations rather than a love for the game.
At what point are runners going to take the seed and input it into a program to "calculate" the exact X,Y,Z of the stronghold and overlay arrows on the map of exactly where to go? What if they automatically analyzed each world based on the seed and overlayed arrows pointing to the best chests, bastion location, most optimal paths, or straight up said "seed not runnable" saving the runner time? Allowing any form of tool I think opens up a can of worms. Have a separate category.
Everything that calculates a seed or similar is forbidden
@@1.0 And until now, so was the calculator tools. The point is that they're opening a door that should have stayed closed.
@@1.0 How is the tool at 18:04 any different than taking the seed and inserting it into a program that is "forbidden"? IMO The moment you are no longer doing math in your head, you have crossed that line. Doesn't matter if a tool/spreadsheet specifically uses the seed or not, if it accomplishes the same goal as using the seed, its the same thing. Not saying it should be against the rules altogether, just to make it a separate category.
This is a slippery slope fallacy. There will be no point when this is allowed.
‘Doesn't matter if a tool/spreadsheet specifically uses the seed or not, if it accomplishes the same goal as using the seed, its the same thing.’ - of course it does. In one case you’re relying on reverse-engineering the game code and internal algorithms of the game, in the other you’re using observable in-game behaviour which is explained in game’s lore (such as it is).
@@mina86 the slipper slope is not a fallacy when you're figuratively slipping down the damn slope...
I'm against the use of tools, also I'd like pausing to be prevented during the runs to prevent all these calculations. As mentioned in the video: using tools will take away the skill involved from being skilled at the game to being skilled at using these tools fast enough.
I think pausing is fine but it can't stop the timer
Is Minecraft timing based on IGT or real time?
@@samallard93 IGT but it’s complex. Certain pauses are counted towards the IGT
@@dylanc2806 that might be the first step to solve this problem. I'd agree with this as a basic solution, then monitor players and community opinion.
I mean, doesn't fighting the dragon and getting enough eyes to get there and all that take skill as well?
Don't get me wrong, trigonometry takes skill. But, and I admit that I'm a complete outsider to Minecraft speedrunning, is doing maths an interesting skill to see as a viewer?
Man it's really weird seeing this perspective when I've seen a similar thing in Wind Waker speedrunning where eventually a tool was made to calculate the battleship minigame to universal joy, not a single complaint calling it a TAS. Suppose the big difference being that it was just RNG to deal with in that case, no real strategy. I see the appeal in performing tracking skills but I don't really see this as particular different from any big route change or glitch discovery in a game. It'd be laughable to hear people cry out that the new route removes skill or that "glitch abuse" is ruining the competitive spirit in speedrunning in any other community so I don't really how this is somehow different. Especially strange to claim it could ruin everything when you'll generally see a category split to accommodate everyone in these situations, hell you don't even need an official one really, you can just start doing it right now without what you consider tools and label it as such.
Though, I wouldn't even agree that calling it a TAS is any more fair than calling using the strategies gained from the community instead of coming up with your own an assist, is that not "letting someone else do the work for you?" God knows work isn't just execution, you're already calling talking to others over discord one so why not? Are we going to call using splits in your speedrun a TAS because you could just work on the skill of feeling out how your run is instead of having a tool tell you your run is dead? Tool assisted is literally accurate but it's not really how the acronym TAS is used.
Last thing is that I just can't agree with what you say is the point of speedrunning. Boiling it down to just being a competition of skill really strips down what makes it fascinating to me and surely many others, a community wanting to finish something as fast as they can. People making tools, data mining to understand mechanics, glitch hunters doing it the old fashioned way, and skilled runners to execute it all working together to absolutely crush time barriers is honestly what I love about this hobby. Could say any Mario 64 category aside from 120 stars is missing the point seeing as other categories vastly "bypass the skill of getting all 120 stars". Sure, competing and showing off how good you are is great fun, but I personally don't think it comes before "beat the game in the least amount of time possible" to the point where new innovations are shunned because "C'mon guys I put a lot of practice in doing it the old way."Course, If you don't enjoy the new ways that's why category splits happen and it most likely will happen here considering how people are reacting. No hate either way of course.
Neat video overviewing the subject but I just can't agree.
Jobst gleefully embraced the external tool of drawing a reticule on his TV for Goldeneye. I guess the skill of aiming wasn't an important portion of the game, like doing basic trigonometry is in Minecraft.
I guess one has to look at what it is you want to measure. That's why there are different categories. Yes of course any% Mario 64 removes the skill of getting most of the 120 stars (especially the consistency / stamina part - you have to perform on high level for a long amount of time) but it adds a tremendous amount of really hard stuff to perform. That is why there are different categories - they require different skills. A 120 star WR is neither less nor more impressive than any% IMHO. It's like comparing table tennis to badminton. That said, Sploosh Kaboom is mostly RNG based and no matter your skill it's very likely to kill your run somehow. So getting rid of that type of RNG is what the community decided. The stronghold position might be random, but getting good at finding it is not - that is a skill that can be learned.
@@shorthanyfantano6944 LOL? Ware you really comparing putting a piece of sticky tape on your TV (or making a marker dot) as a visual aid to (essentially) letting the computer search through gigabytes of Excel-Sheet that the speedrunner potentially has not even created by themselves?
@@tetsi0815 he's right, both of those are external tools that takes some information provided by the game and converts it into a different form for the player. one is analog and one is digital, but that shouldn't matter at all. restricting external calculations will be unenforceable anyway, which is directly due to the fact that they are indistinguishable from manual computation and memorization (because they are functionally identical).
@@tetsi0815 lol was drawing a dot in the center of his TV a true showcase of speedrunning skill or something? Yeah, it's an external tool. All of his Goldeneye runs should be retroactively moved to the TAS category, by his logic. You don't need the excel sheet if you just do the math (calculate) bud.
As someone with dyscalculia whose brain just does not compute numbers in a normal way, I am conflicted. I see the arguments and I 100% agree, but I also see an effort to create a chance for equality by giving everyone the same chance in getting a speedrun record. Should be a brand new category though. It IS not the same, it IS a TAS.
I wish something like that would have been part of the reasons calculators were unbanned. I don't speedrun the game, but I'm not happy with the moderators' decision.
I'm pretty sure that was consideration for unbanning calculators, people had brought that up before, but mostly people didn't like that mental math in general was becoming a more important skill.
Calling it a TAS is just inaccurate imo. Sure a tool is assisting your speedrun, but doesn't the timer also do that? There are also plenty of other tools like in AA for tracking which advancements you have done. The definition of a TAS is very specific, because the calculator does not perform any inputs for you, it's not considered a TAS. Karl just decided to misuse the term for some reason
I would compare this with the use of outside program in Wind Waker HD for the Sploosh Kaboom mini-game, but on a far more abusable scale.
The program used to pinpoint the RNG value of the game with Sploosh Kaboom boards is used in order to complete the mini-game with far less possible timeloss, but it is slower to use since you have to manually input board states in the program. It also is only there to prevent minutes of timeloss from randomness, but in a multiple hour speedrun.
The case of calculator for triangulation in Minecraft is not a thing to remove random timeloss, but to remove most of the calculation on the runner's part. The length of the speedrun being from 10 minutes to half an hour also makes it worse. You have a tool in game to figure out where the stronghold is, the calculation are doable in real-time (even simple approximations), but you remove all that for more consistant runs, and remove a big skill element at the end of the run.
As an outside viewer, I am definitely against the motion to allows calculators in Minecraft speedruns, but I can understand that this problem comes from the speedrun itself becoming so incredibly optimised.
I had the exact same thought. You could read the same text as the conclusion of the WW video, and every word would make sense, but it would be the opposite of what he said that time.
Actually it's worse, as the WW exploit identifies the random seed, which could also be done in Minecraft based on the blocks, in order to know everything about a world.
I find it funny that most people will never figure out Sploosh Kaboom. There is a strat to win every time without any outside tools.
@@lukeshioshio If said strat existed is it documented anywhere? I'd love to be wrong but if there was a guaranteed win every time I'd imagine speed runners would have found it and been abusing it by now.
@@UnsavedTrash it's more like 90 to 99% of the time and it just involves spacing out your moves perfectly so you hit all areas of the board
@@lukeshioshio Thats what runners did do before the tool and they would end up losing tons of time because it isn't nearly as accurate or successful as you think it is, especially when you need to go for the high score reward in 100%
The tool doesn’t make it more fun, it doesn’t make the runs more interesting and it doesn’t increase the skill required. It just makes it easier, not in an intelligent interesting way it’s just easier. I guess you could make the argument it makes it more accessible but is that worth the overall reduction in challenge and skill.
Well put.
Speedruninng is all about reaction timing and your own knowledge. Having Minecraft wiki near me will make it easier
@@alkaupadhyay7650 But then you have to keep looking over to check the info on it(whether it's on another screen or another tab) and that will slow you down.
Minecraft speedrunners need to be able to pause the game and use tools to assist them. Jeez man. That sounds boring as hell to watch.
You don’t pause while using it, from a viewing perspective it makes absolutely zero difference.
Pausing rules were fixed forever ago, and my god this video is such a damaging overreaction to calculators for several reasons
@@GikamesShadow It doesnt do the same thing. Not even remotely. It most of the time gives the same Result though.
The problem with unbanning these tools, and not having seperate categories is all it does is put pressure on those who never used them to start using them, or else they're likely to never make it on the leaderboard at all because of those actively using them.