@Anarchy In The Galaxy Reveal this card; then discard a random card; if this card is discarded pay 4000 lp and once that resolves lose the game. Its summon is like the other dangers 😂
I feel like with all these topics I want to just hear you all talk about it for longer. I get that it doesn't fit the format of the show, but having separate discussions about these things would be neat
100%. This is a really interesting series that didn't even need the mini game of the liar, because it's just topics that I'd love to hear people talk about in general. Apparently I'm asking for a topic based podcast, now that I think about it.
Everytime Gage has been the imposter BOTH of his takes(real and fake) have been totally reasonable. It's only when he's crew that he turns into a madman.
His real take was super reasonable too tho, the main problem with this episode is that most people agree on legacy support, in term of general vibes at least.
I actually agree more with his fake take, like who the fuck wants to play with fucking Naturia Cherries or Kazejin in 2023 where cards like Spright Starter, Reinoheart (pre banlist) and SHS Wakaushi literally sets up a better end board than a 3 card combo deck.
@@gabrielgois8724 That's why they should release new formats where the old cards are playable, instead of just printing a whole new deck with just the name on it.
Coder forgot about the other type of legacy support. That type of support is when the support doesn't do anything to give the archetype any type of actual game plan and just gives it a fuck ton of search power that shits out monsters that lose to basic interaction. The most prominent examples of this would be Neos and Dark Magician, but honorable mentions also go to Amazoness and Harpie Lady.
MBT: "Legacy support boils down to either you are forced to play the shitty old cards as bricks or you retrain all the old cards to be playable" And then you have Synchron, where all the good new cards are your bricks (Jet, Assault, Stardust, Revolution and Wheel) and your starter is Junk Synchron, a card from a starter deck that came out in 2008.
and this is why I hate junk speeder. It makes it where everything needs to be designed around the context of it existing which ends up meaning they make every new synchron a brick that's just a speeder target.
They really made a card that’s basically, synchro whatever the hell you want. And they can never hit it because the actual deck isn’t flexible or that great. It just summons a million things and maybe wins sometimes.
Legacy support as a concept is phenomenal. Support for a deck that fell out of favor ages ago is always appreciated. In practice however, it's dropped the ball more often than it's added anything worthwhile. There's the infamous "just give 'em a floodgate" strategy which can be annoying if they get it to stick, but half the time the archetype it's made for has to use every resource it has just to access it. Then there's "just give them an omni-negate" which is...a mixed bag (usually bad because it's unsearchable or too slow. Often both). The best support would take the archetype's original goal and give it a few cards that further that goal in a way that's in line with modern card design.
Me: Man I really do agree with Gage's take. It's kinda tragic but sometimes that's what you gotta do to modernize old game plans like Naturia's toolbox floodgate style Gage: Yeah it was me Me: FUCK I FORGOT RULE NUMBER ONE
Even then I think it may be an issue, look at electrumite, it would also need a hard restriction imo like beyond the pendulum or just be exclusively crystron
@@MysteriousGuardian Would also be fine if it had the stipulation, "When duplicating the effect of a polymerization or fusion spell, all material(s) used for that Fusion Summon are banished face down."
@@ivantheenigma577 i mean They still wouldn't play it since all their best cards hard lock them into fusions...... Only way to fix it is make it a contact fusion.
@@MysteriousGuardian WHY DO PEOPLE SAY THIS, PREDAPS DON'T NEED OR USE VERTE. ITS ONLY USE IS BEING A GENERIC LINK TO GET RID OF IBLEE LOCKS AND OTHER SIMILAR CRINGE.
I am honestly surprised a positive example wasn't bought up in Traptrix, that deck has both old and new cards and doesn't rely on Floodgate turbo to win games. Sera was 2019, the new structure has a wave of good cards (holeutea being borderline broken advantage wise) but despite that every deck has 3 mantis 3 myrmeleo and 1-3 dionea, some of the OGs. They show they can do it without invalidating the entire deck space, pushing a broken floodgate, breaking theme, or retraining every card
I guess a downside is more Traptrix players existing and that feels like a mistake but overall there's evidence that Komoney can really perform every now and then
Indeed. The traptrix support is very good and it gels with the OG power players of the archetype well, and it doesn't dish out skill drain or vanity's on legs.
I found a guy that can play with Athrax and "Hole from hand" turbo months ago, maybe after Traptrix new cards announced. That is actually a good example of how new cards support the old one because you can see Atrax and Nepenthes become the core of the game plan. Too bad, I cannot find his channel now.
Oddly enough they're also an ecample of horrible legacy support. Before MR4 Rafflesia obsoleted the entire archetype as a generic Rank 4 that had a deckbuilding cost of, PLAYING Bottomless.
Traptrix is legacy support on top of a few previous waves of legacy support. After Sera the deck was playable and made Rafflesia something a pure version could summon. The new support takes that playstyle and gives it more power, consistency, and resilience. Support that makes the old best board a deck could make the baseline while shortcutting a ton of steps is peak support. Circular did this for Mathmech and so did the Marincess stuff last year.
This instantly make me think of the guys who brought a massive deck with searchers, shufflers, and burn cards to win on time. I don't know the count but it was like 2 feet (2/3 of a meter) high.
I agree, the current premise is fun but I'd love to have a full on podcast where they just chill and actually talk in depth about these topics, like what everybody thinks, how each person would implement ideas, counter ideas, etc. I think it'd be a chill vibe.
The biggest issue with legacy support is it can often fall under the "1 broken card" category which means a deck gets a really strong support card but instantly folds if its negated. Springans taly-ho is a rota + soul charge that recurs itself but you ash it you end on nothing.
I mean Springans arent the best example since they are playable, not meta relevant by any means but waaaay more playable than other decks that have that same 1 broken card problem you perfectly described, even without taly Springans can steal games
@@nbassasin8092 yeah i don’t think springans is a good example especially since tally ho doesn’t play the entire game by itself, champion Sargas definitely connects some of the dots that were missing while also giving access to therions + tally ho just makes it more cohesive.
@@txkyoaes5743 yeah and lets not act that springans were horrible even before newer support, they were one of the worst albaz archetypes but in comparison to the entirety of yugioh they were actually kinda decent. They wont top any YCSs anytime soon but they are consistent and strong enough to be considere respectable, even witho just tje original lineup
I really enjoyed the Ancient Gear support we got a few years back. Ballista was an amazingly designed link for the archetype, Catapult enables your game plan quite well, and Chaos Ancient Gear Giant is the perfect over-the-top finisher for the archetype. Now if we could only get some damn extenders so we don't lose to a negate on summon of Wyvern, that'd be pretty cool.
Harpies are the best example of legacy support. Initially a wholly new archetype, then further enhanced years later with new support that simply further enhances the original legacy support.
A bit unrelated, but I play shadowverse as well and they do cool stuff with legacy support. My favorite example is there was an archetype called usurpation, that created 1 cost spells in your hand called loot. Then later the lore made the leader of the archetype have a 180 on her beliefs, so instead of being a thief she believed in throwing away worldly possessions. So the new cards actually get their good effects by discarding the loot cards, which I really enjoy the design philosophy. Sorry for the long post, and sorry to other shadowverse players, I know fusion isn't technically discarding. Anyways, thanks for reading.
I believe that not only is legacy support good, its the BEST thing about yugioh and the thing that makes us different from other games. The identity people have with their decks is huge and legacy support makes that possible
@@willgiesbrecht9318 its unique because other games don’t have the same structure that we do, with archetypes and all, so there aren’t as many people with a huge identity in 1 strategy (No set rotation also plays a part here)
@@flogos989 there are plenty of non rotating formats in other games as well. MTG has a plethora of creature tribes that receive support fairly regularly along with general deck playstyles
legacy support exists in other games with either a archtype system, like vamguard and digimon, or games that reward playing certain playstyle/keywords. anything with an eternal format tends to give legacy support.
Surprised they didn’t mention casual legacy support. Like the Egyptian god stuff. It’s not gonna make the god cards relevant (as cool as that would be), but it makes roleplaying with them significantly easier/more fun. Like, the majestic stardust dragon stuff makes it so much easier to summon that card.
Ok, but this exists and it should be fleshed out into a full archtype. Evil Heroes are just the villain versions of E-Heroes and it already has a good in archtype poly and a searcher for it. It just needs actual main deck monsters and fusion monsters so that its not a 3 card splash into mixed Heroes to pop out Malicious Bane.
Every single one of these feels like I’m watching the “Detective Coder and friends show”, he just takes charge during the questioning section it feels like he’s the only questioning anyone and some how it’s still enjoyable.
i think some good legacy support was the Mako tsunami stuff since it played a bit with the use the field spell for cost to activate effects and what not like the Daedalus cards did.
Honestly, Gage has the best strategy here. If he has a real take, he's a madman. If it's fake, it's calm and reasonable so nobody suspects him. This is why Gage should be on this series, he makes it WAY more interesting.
I like how giving SuperGrapha a unique form of disruption that basically only helped his archetype's gameplan was actually just a fluke and they went straight back to swarming and skill drains
I am of the opinion that it depends on what playstyle the new support promotes. like, yeah sure, you do get really awful support like the stuff for blue eyes or red eyes, or even stuff that tries to take the archetype in a completely different direction like genex. but then you get really awesome support that helps modernize and maintain those older cards like the new fabled cards or the infernity support (see call of the reaper). cards like scrap raptor that help give the deck the edge it needs without sacrificing its playstyle are exactly what legacy support should be. then you get support that changes the playstyle in a positive way like the most recent ice barrier support or dare i say even the six samurai support from STOR format. point being it depends on what konami chooses to make the archetype focus on.
Gate Guardian would be better if they make a new Sanga of the Thunder, Kazejin and Suijin that has effects when they are in the Spell & Trap Zone or just let you place them in the Spell & Trap Zone for the Fusions that need them on the field. I'm bad at names but they could call them Sanga of the Thunderstorm, Tornado Kazejin and Tsunami Suijin.
Ideally they would make Sanga, Kazejin and Suijin into pendulum monsters, just tack on a name change to the original either at all times such as with the early harpy lady variants or like with Shari Red where they apply for all relevant locations. Maybe make them scale 7 with a +/- 1 depending on which zone they are in or if just add the search effect of the field spell and Laberynth Heavy Tank(maybe just for one specific member instead of any, I.E. water sets wind, wind sets thunder, thunder sets water or similar) to make the 2 piece fusions more accessible.
@@uaeoaeoeoi Yeah that's a great idea I'm not that good at making decks heck I completely forgot about pendulum monsters when writing my original comment.
Legacy support is honestly something that should really be worked on more to be expanded on archetypes. Of course not all archetypes can have their old cards be usable but a support that evokes the same spirit as the original should be used. Obviously not just floodgates, but actual support cards that either make more modern archetypess have an easier time to do their main plays or older ones that have retrains of the original since not everything would be playable and many older cards would just become bricks.
I think that the new Superheavy support is really good, the archetype needs some work, but not nearly as much as it used to, and on top of this, Superheavy still uses cards back from the literal first release, Benkei is still used, most of the OG synchros are still pretty good, hell the new level 12 isn't 100% better than Steam train King, it just provides the deck an easier way to put a 12 on field.
I think an interesting counter point when MBT argued that structure deck archetypes tend to only allow the new cards, decks like traptrix play a lot of the old stuff and the new stuff helps the deck further it's game plan rather than builds a new game plan
Even using his Dark World example is not completely correct either, half the cards used are the old ones, and all that new ones do is further the game plan of the old ones.
Only Dionea and Mymerllo are really old, the rest was released as a legacy support, almost all the most played trap holes were released during the Link era.
@@ketsura3618 yes in the link era the deck received stuff like sera but pretty much every archetype received a new link monster, my point was that the gameplan of the deck hasn't changed since the structure deck was released but some of the cards have furthered the capabilities of the deck making it a legit rogue deck
I don’t know what MBT was talking about the Dark World Structure. Yeah now the strategy revolves around Genta and Reignbow jerking each other off for 20 minutes, but that’s all for the purposes of getting to utilize the old Dark World cards for all their non once per turn glory. As for the old first generation Dark World cards like Grenn, you didn’t play those anyway even before the structure came out.
7:18 Ok this is actually incorrect Ishizu's one onscreen duel had her using exchange of the spirit, and the Ishizu cards even came out with a retrained Exchange of the Spirit, some even let you search it. So the reason the Ishizu cards are the way they are is to facilitate that gameplan
Legacy support is, as with so many things in Yu-Gi-Oh, a good idea with horribly inconsistent implementation quality. When will your deck get support? No one knows. Will they try and start fresh with retrains or create increasingly convoluted ways to get old cards out? No one knows. Will the retrains be powerful and faithful or so mediocre that people just play the old versions? No one knows. Will they give you Suship style names, or Buster Blader names? No one knows. Will they boost the most powerful part of a deck or try and salvage a long abandoned boss monster that everyone gave up on? No one freakin knows. Will they add a new extra deck card type the deck has never interacted with before? Probably.
The darklord support was amazing support, it gave the deck an actual end board and goal/payoff. It would be nice for more fusions, and fusion spells, however.
I think the best version of legacy support is when they drop about 4 new cards that intentionally work with the old ones, even if it's not going to bring a deck to modern relevancy. The Ghostrick support is the best example of this. Festival, Shot, and Trick or Treat are amazing support cards(I'm actually blanking on Sirien rn) that made the deck infinitesimally more playable without breaking out any one overpowered card. All it did was 'hey why don't we give them a starter and a new way to deal with links and a negate with a time rule win attached'
I love the blackwings support that came out in DABL, it's really good, adds a way to recycle resources (2, actually), adds synchro focussed cards (before this it was just ultimate falcon turbo+Kali yuga) which is of course the theme of the deck and gives you a reason to play black winged dragon that otherwise wouldn't be even played because terrible by itself. Overall a good boost for the deck with a way to play older cards along with the new ones
@@thepuzzycatzz4313 no not really. You already have one, Sudri, but you for sure prefer to use its search on something more useful for your combos. It's a good counter trap that could negate nibiru for example since it can be activated from the hand but you already have a way to play around nibiru in the Kali yuga version of the deck at least Edit: i was wrong, it can't negate nibiru because it has to be a monster your opponent controls that activates its effect, otherwise it could have been a useful tech against our most hated enemy, The Rock
I was a big fan of the support wave that came out of LINK Vrains. Yes the quality varied greatly and it was just one Link per Archetype. But it was really exciting to see the new Links be revealed bit by bit and finding out which deck got a new staple and which deck got shafted.
I love Mayakashi, and I am so happy to get Link 3 Yuki Onna. But HOLY SHIT is "Ghost Meets Girl - A Masterful Mayakashi Shiranui Saga" a card of all time. It is way too good to not play, but you also need to just revolve your endboard completely around it, since you might need to spend your "Mayakashi Return" search on it, not to mention either sacrifice off your yuki onna, or get an additional Synchro Monster on the field just to trigger it. And for what? To vanities your opponent for one turn and hope you can then play through the backrow interruption, after already investing all your resources into the stupid trap the previous turn
My favorite type of legacy support is the one that is synergistic with the old card within the archetype, give reason to run old cards within the archetype and isn't overly generic. Personally not a big fan of skill drain type effect either I think MBT brings up a good point where giving support to relatively new archetype makes more sense while for old archetype they basically need an overhaul (retrain) to make it even rogue tier. The rikka support is quite good in making the combo much smoother than "petal snowdrop pass". In madolche Pettingcess and Antjelly makes the archetype a lot more playable but I am still sad that majority of Madolche card in the past just doesn't make the cut due to the awkward synergy they have
gotta be honest I feel like we need a term specific to support for archetypes/series from the last two to three years, because I feel like that is significantly different from "true" legacy support, which I think of as, for instance, the cards from the link vrains pack to help strategies from before the link era work at all in the modern game
1:00-1:10 (edit) Yes from a lore and nostalgia perspective. No from a playability perspective. It’s puzzling how the most iconic cards in the game are given mid-level support at best (Dark Magician). Most of the time they just end up being a meme deck with one key card or engine used as a tech tool in a better deck. i’m getting sick and tired of the wide disparity in inherent power levels in a mainly one format game. Tearlaments were born the best deck by a mile and Gate Guardians need 24/7 supervision from Magicians’ Souls and Elemental Hero Prisma in order to actually function, taking away precious flex slots. Now if the payoff were worth the slot investment that would be one thing. It’s not.
Yeah, frankly I'd rather if they're gonna pump out a bunch of legacy support for iconic cards like DM and blue eyes, make it nuts, make it awesome, make it what they actually need to be competitive, otherwise what. Is even. The damn. Point. I'd rather they release busted support or nothing at all instead of incredibly luke warm additions that still leave each deck basically unplayable.
I do hecking love legacy support. With no set rotation decks need new cards to adapt to newer formats, or simply they really could just use a new toy from time to time. Sure, the newer support might still not make the deck meta relevant but, for instance, as a fan of Karakuri, all the new cards in Ignition Assault were awesome, not a single bad one. Sure the deck saw no meta play, but if for whatever reason I wanna play Karakuri in a modern setting I can now change battle positions with quick effects, changing battle positions can convert into banishes and I can more easily Synchro climb, fantastic support, took what the deck already did and made it more efficient, gave it payoffs for doing it, chef's kiss. I love when we get stuff like that, again, even if it doesn't make the deck meta. Then there's stuff like Salamangreat Zebroid X and Blaze Dragon, have you guys heard of those? Zebroid X exists to make Salamangreat rank 4's, which the deck has plenty, such as Blaze Dragon and... Blaze Dragon. And what does Blaze Dragon do? It's an indesdructible xyz while it has material that can go into other Salamangreat XYZs during the battle phase, if it has no material(?????) and if it goes into itself you get a pop. Like... What? It sounds like you get better pops with Rage and if you wanna go into Miragestallio you just go into Miragestallio to begin with. So I do agree with Farfa that sometimes decks get new cards that just don't help them at all, it's basically pack filler and not even fun pack filler for the people who like the deck. I also have to agree giving archetypes floodgates out of nowhere is just bad design. As to what Gage brought up with Naturia, that the new cards eclipse the old ones and you have no reason to even play the old ones, while I agree it would be cool if the support made stuff like Cherries and Cliff playable, decks such as Naturia are in a weird spot because the archetype is so disjointed. What did a Naturia deck do before the support? What was the synergy? How do you support a deck that had barely any existing synergy before?
5:40 I'm glad Joe brought this up as it's something I've felt about legacy support for a while. Most notably with the Ice Barrier SD. Now look I understand making an archetype like that good would be difficult but if you're playing IB you're just playing 2-3 of each new card and maybe like 2 total cards old cards. And at that point the structure may as well have been a new archetype. Also personally I don't really mind when worse decks get a floodgate, like yeah it's lazy card design but if it plays into the style of the deck or it's just there for a slower deck to keep up it's really not that bad. Alot of the recent legacy floodgates have barely done anything anyway. I'd say Rexturm is the most notable one but he's part of a trap deck so he fits.
I really liked OG Noble Knights ever since Legacy of the Duelist. It's what got me back into Yu-Gi-Oh and the first Archetype that ever genuinely loved to play. I thought they did a good job with it's legacy support. Sure, Isolde is a bit generic, but most decks can't even use her, she requires that you play equip spells which there are only a few generic good ones, and Noble Knights ultimately get the most out of her. Heritage is a Rota for both names and archetype equips, that can occasionally recycle itself. Glory is a quickplay to equip from deck. Custennin and Ivyanne help the deck get multiple guys on board and Sacred Custennin provides an additional boss, that gives the deck a different form of removal as well as added protection and assistance Xyz summoning. Until Noble Arms are Needed gives them a duality and special from deck. Clarent lets them circumvent Towers type monsters and Morgan was a hand trap. They all brought something that the deck wanted and none of them were overpowered. I also really love the Infernoble Knights as a shift from the Xyz focused Noble Knights to a Synchro focused strategy. It let's the deck easily go into High Laundsallyn, which was difficult before, and keep the ability to use their Xyz monsters. It fixes the issue of how over-reliant Noble Knights were on their normal summon. Multiple Noble Knight cards are still playable in Infernoble, even going back to the first wave of Knights such as Brothers. It takes the equip focus to the next level by having monsters that can become equips for useful effects, such as battle immunity, destruction protection and targetting protection. Good at generating advantage and recycling resources. Charles is an outstanding boss that has the old Protect The Castle energy that the old deck had with Artorigus while being able to make itself stronger as the game progresses and give you multiple more opportunities to generate advantage, interrupt your opponent, and thin your deck. I got a look at the new stuff and I'm super excited. I've been wanting Noble Knights to get a new field spell and a link 1 for a while and I got that and more and it all looks good. I can't wait to play those cards.
I am frustrated that the arguments got bogged down in the the "1 broken card" and the "Generic Link" kind of legacy support making it bad, when the former ends up being an extremely small minority of all legacy support(but also the most memorable one, which is why people think these happen more often than not) and the latter is the unfortunate side effect of MR4. They needed to print the Generic Synchro Link, Generic Fusion Link, Generic Xyz Link and whatever not as quickly as possible because they made A LOT of cardboard literally unplayable. The side effects of this are that a lot of the more restrictive archtypes had to get their own seperate Links, like Junk Connector or Cherubini, even if in some cases they already could not summon the Link and use some of their effects the same turn(but the alternate is only ever playing with one zone). That being said Junk Connector is a very odd example to bring up when Connector is the earlier support and Speeder came later, and would therefore be the Legacy support that doesn't play with the rest(though the TCG appears to have gotten them together which is where the confusion comes from) But if look at the actual state of legacy support we just need to go over the most recent 2-3 sets and everything that ha been announced for the next set in the OCG to see barely any of the complaints hold, but I guess if Dino ends up being top tier and the new Evolzar terrorises the meta by some wild twist of fate, then people are gonna probably ignore it came along with two other Evol monsters that won't make the archtype good, but certainly made it more fun for any fan of it(same with the poor forgotten Mayakashi Link 3 because they put a floodgate next to her).
Personal example, the new evol support. Yes the XYZ is great and godlike. I'm referring to the two new main decks. Instead of fixing issues with the deck,like ability to extend,they just gave us a searcher for the trap and a searcher for the spell. And the spell is only a one for one unless you have 1 specific monster in hand with the spell. We needed special summoning power,not the ability to revive one facedown from GY. In an XYZ deck. And yes I know u can revive najasho facedown to tribute,but how lucky do you need to be to put two monsters in the board
5:00 Print em a skill drain! Print em a skill drain! Print em a skill drain! Print em a skill drain! Print em a skill drain! Print em a skill drain! Print em a skill drain! Print em a skill drain!
I'm surprised none of them mentioned the traptrix structure deck and how amazing it was as legacy support in that most of your deck IS the old cards! You're still normaling myrmeleo, still using mantis, still playing a bunch of trapholes, still making r4 xyz to support your backrow I love it
If a deck has some older cards that are good, Legacy Support is nice to have. Otherwise it's like playing an entire new deck with retrains and shared themes with stuff you're familiar with. I see no problem with either of these things. I think most gripes with it are just releasing cards that don' t do enough compared to recent powercreep, or that don't even fit with their original archetype cards. That's less a problem with the act of providing legacy support than its implementation though.
My shitty take about legacy support: the game has so many archetypes and so many strategies at this point that Konami could spend a year or two without printing a single new archetype and it would be fine, just making new support for both things that were great in the past but wore off with time, and for things that were not that good/were bad. Not that I want them to do it, but at the same time they release so many new archetypes each year that the list just piles up and it gets harder and harder for niche archetypes to get new things, even beloved archetypes like Kozmo or Volcanic.
Personally we have very mixed views on legacy support, and that just comes down to the decks we've ended up liking. There's a dichotomy in cards that aren't "here's a floodgate". On one hand, you have the 2020 Karakuri lineup. An excellent set of cards which gave the deck a game plan, and a way to accomplish it consistently and effectively. It could still use more, the deck has serious issues, not least of which is that its ROTA is basically useless, but every new card was good and gave the deck some real punch while keeping as much of its identity as possible. And then you have the Sky Striker "support", which we do not understand the purpose of. The game is too fast for whatever the hell it's trying to do, and not only do most of the cards do almost nothing for it, the Magi turn off your striker spells. Linkage is really good, really versatile, and closes up some weaknesses, but it's one card out of...what, five? So, yeah, very mixed feelings on the execution of legacy support by Konami. And no, we're not saying the Karakuri support made it good. It's shit. But it's now shit that does anything at all.
If you're open to prompt suggestions. Ide love to hear peoples ideas on removing limited /semi limited and only have a ban list. I personally believe limiting doesn't solve card power problems in most instances. It just makes the game more of a sac fest
I'd love to hear their takes on this too. Limiting cards just feels annoying to me. It's like saying "this card isn't bad enough to be outright banned, but I think it'd be great if you bricked more" Recent examples in master duel I got a little annoyed when they semi limited branded opening, aluber, and Longyuan. Like did it actually hurt those decks? No not really. All it did was hurt their consistency a little, which ultimately boils down to being a "fuck you" change.
Archetypes coming back through the years is one of YuGiOhs best selling points, like, Fire Kings were forgotten for almost a decade and then they recieved their structure and it just happens that Fire is the best Attribute rn. Even when they become a Floodgate.deck, like Shaddoll Invoked, seeing a deck back from the abyss is one of the best feelings ever... for a week or so...
Farfa missed the biggest card he could have mentioned... Subterror Behemoth Fiendess A Link Monster...In an Archtype that requires all your monsters be able to be turned facedown to Special Summon your big beaters and boss effect monsters...A Link Monster...Who can never be turned Facedown. The Spell Cards are Unsearchable by Guru, despite how great they are...
I definitely get that sometimes an old archetype just doesn’t work in the modern game, but I knew it was Gage when he said he enjoyed the names of these archetypes being taken and used to excite players with basically an entirely new archetype. The entire reason that I’d enjoy legacy support is to play an older deck that I loved. Like in Dark World, I’m still playing Beiige, Snoww, Ceruli, Sillva, Grapha, and even Goldd. I’m still discarding my monsters for cool effects, but now the fusion gives me something to end on, Genta gives me a great starter, the fusion spell is immaculate, and retrained reign-beaux is a card I didn’t think I needed. I honestly thought reign-beaux was doomed cause of Dark World shenanigans never working, but now only one of them is. I get that reign-beaux wasn’t gonna be playable otherwise, but reign-beaux was never playable (as far as I know, I’m not the oldest or most experienced player, so I could not know about something), so I’m not upset cause I didn’t lose anything. I’m still not playing that card, but now there’s a Reign-Beaux in my deck in some way shape or form.
a better example than cherubini is protector whelp. a card that (within buster blader) boosts its intended strategy 10 fold. but in any other deck, becomes an enabler for bust lock as a generic splashable card. however, it sees no play. its even more accessible and better off than artifact scythe and dagda ever was, yet it sees no play because people arent willing to set up the equiping part of the combo. which functionally turns buster whelp into a card that is only played in buster blader, even if they pay up for a lengthy set up is broken, its still not worth it unless its in its intended archetype. this is how a card can be both generic and balanced. 'generic' doesnt mean good. 'usable' does. just because a card is easily accessable, doesnt make it borken,
Honestly, one and only thing for a legacy support I want is to be playable. I even love Halq, Verte, Magician Soul, although Isolde (for its time) and Ishizu were a bit too much. By good I don't necessarily mean tear 1. Naturia, Traptrix and maybe even Dark World (although that couldn't come out in worse time) and HERO are great as well. I just think that if you won't use tge cards in your locals, they shouldn't be printed.
I love legacy support and really agree with Gage's take. Stuff like Mathmech Circular, which not only neatly fits into the archetype but also fixes most of its problems AND is a powerful card on its own is VERY satisfying
You mean for Swordsoul since every Wyrm deck is Swordsoul support now😁😂 Jokes aside Im more than down, Wyrms are generally not represented enough and Yang Zings are cool, they should just errata the old ones, give some small buff in 2-3 new cards and theyd be fine fun archetype that you could combine with other Wyrms
@@nbassasin8092 I agree, Yang Zing is my favorite deck of all time, and they were a viable deck during INOV with denglong and nine pillars, I really just want them to be a viable deck again.
@@Linkiscool115 Viable is a tough one, as they are a bit slow for modern yugioh, but they could be playable for sure, firstly Denglong is overdue to come off the banlist, and secondly they just need another card that can make them a bit faster to activate, some new spell or monster that does that (or both) would do the trick however, i still think people would use them more as a supplement for Swordsoul than standalone deck. But IMO it would be cool to have the big 3 of Wyrm archetypes combined into 1 deck (they are already, but Yang zings are only present in the extradeck unfortunately)
I'm gonna be that guy But while Sistart wasn't needed at the time, it's valuable now because the backrow is so important for Madolche. Her effect to shuffle back another Madolche monster instead of being destroyed is also valuable because it procs those same spells she protects.
She wasn't what we needed at the time (but was at least some arrows pointing down so we could have multiple xyz in master rule 4) but every other piece of legacy Madolche support since then has been an absolute banger and she has just gotten better with time.
Honestly I'm just mostly upset that the legacy support we get is mainly for archetypes that already had their time in the spotlight and have been at least meta relevant to some degree in the past 5yrs. Just saying...there's over 400 archetypes in the game and it seems like only the most recent 25 meta relevant archetypes get more. Once in a blue moon you will see a card or 2 for an archetype. And if we do get retrains of Halq and Verte, can we make them synchros and fusion respectively that do basically the same thing, except more xeno locked since this isn't MR4 anymore
This is why I'm adamant that thunder dragon is one of the best legacy archetypes made to date Thunder dragon isnt just a nice way to thin your deck, or a brick. As a thundra player, having played multiple variants of the deck, i genuinely love seeing 1 copy of thunder dragon in my opening hand. It is such an incredibly useful card, thinning the deck, discard fodder, pops with a Titan out, maybe fusing it to make colossus, banish fodder for a bystial if needed just the tool box Versatility of this card is insane and the thunder dragon archetype as a deck utilizes it so well Also to be fair, i don't mind. A completely redesigned archetype. BUT i want to logically be able to see how that redesign came about. Like, i want to look at the old card, look at the new card, and go "oh this is like, following the spirit of what the og card did. But its actually good or at least does something "
A good exemple of a complete rework of an archetype given a different name was the Paléozoïque into Eldlicht, same concept but vastly different power level.
@@TheWizardMus They share more similarity than Vampire and Naturia with their new support, they both are trap monsters deck with various powerfull effect that summon more body from the graveyard, Paleo was 2 drops for XYZ and Links, and Eldlich is a beefy 2500 monster that never go away.
The best piece of Legacy Support is Wightbaking. It's not entirely necessary to resolve but it helps out immensely. It also doesn't invalidate previous members of the Archetype, although that's more Skull Servants's dripfeed over the years sticking to a cohesive strategy.
Farfa spittin the Goddamn Truth! That disparity is so irritating. That's why it was so funny when Albaz was getting a bunch of support to wrap up his story, but the next time you see new support for say "Heroes" all complaints of over support seem to vanish.
Synchron is a good example of legacy support done right. Mind you it does support a few archetypes and I guess it's an anime protagonist archetype but I'd also argue that it's legacy support done right sometimes.
I think that as long as an archetype's playstyle still fits its theming then completely revamping a bad archetype is OK. The change from Vampires to a monster stealing xyz deck is so much better than the poorly aged bleed effect that the old vampires relied on. Though, there are a lot of other examples where the transition is nowhere near as thematically smooth. (Red-Eyes being the most obvious example) My problem with the Gate Guardian support is not that you have to run the Gate Guardian pieces, but that the new support just isn't strong enough. Accessing the 3 material fusion is incredibly easy, but targeting protection is just not enough these days, even if it's on all your cards. Two of the two mats are better, but they are also somehow harder to summon than the 3 mat because Konami were cowards and didn't make them all ABC Buster Dragons. Heck, the floating effects of the spell/traps should special summon or shuffle draw the pieces not add them to your bloody hand because unless you are making the 3 mat, they're just stuck there
Gage being out of focus the whole time is just on point with his character
Ageh of gageh
Ageh of gageh
Ageh of gageh
He's a Yu-Gi-Oh cryptid
Danger! Gage
@@anarchyinthegalaxy The lack of a question mark indicates he's a possible threat and I love it!
It's how everyone but coder see's things without their glasses
@Anarchy In The Galaxy Reveal this card; then discard a random card; if this card is discarded pay 4000 lp and once that resolves lose the game. Its summon is like the other dangers 😂
I feel like with all these topics I want to just hear you all talk about it for longer. I get that it doesn't fit the format of the show, but having separate discussions about these things would be neat
100%. This is a really interesting series that didn't even need the mini game of the liar, because it's just topics that I'd love to hear people talk about in general. Apparently I'm asking for a topic based podcast, now that I think about it.
Indeed, they need a podcast
I agree; the liar gimmick is kinda fun, but I'd also trade it for a longer form discussion as well
I actually super enjoy the liar section, but a post-discussion that is longer (or even same length as the former) than one minute would be amazing
Everytime Gage has been the imposter BOTH of his takes(real and fake) have been totally reasonable. It's only when he's crew that he turns into a madman.
His real take was super reasonable too tho, the main problem with this episode is that most people agree on legacy support, in term of general vibes at least.
If Gage's take is reasonable, he's the impostor. If it's not, he's not. Easy.
I actually agree more with his fake take, like who the fuck wants to play with fucking Naturia Cherries or Kazejin in 2023 where cards like Spright Starter, Reinoheart (pre banlist) and SHS Wakaushi literally sets up a better end board than a 3 card combo deck.
@@DoggoDoesStuff1 That's what i meant. That in both cases his real and fake takes have been totally reasonable.
@@gabrielgois8724 That's why they should release new formats where the old cards are playable, instead of just printing a whole new deck with just the name on it.
Coder forgot about the other type of legacy support. That type of support is when the support doesn't do anything to give the archetype any type of actual game plan and just gives it a fuck ton of search power that shits out monsters that lose to basic interaction. The most prominent examples of this would be Neos and Dark Magician, but honorable mentions also go to Amazoness and Harpie Lady.
Some also just straight up change the playstyle of their decks. Stuff like cubics and subterrors
It made Duel Links interesting, and that is.
There's so many fucking archetypes that they can never give anythying actually good because they can just instantly search their entire archetype
Which Harpie cards are you talking about?
The latest harpie card is Harpie's Pet Dragon Fearsome Fire Blast, which is great in Harpie Decks.
@@superfactorial5717 Red eyes got by far the worst of this...
MBT: "Legacy support boils down to either you are forced to play the shitty old cards as bricks or you retrain all the old cards to be playable"
And then you have Synchron, where all the good new cards are your bricks (Jet, Assault, Stardust, Revolution and Wheel) and your starter is Junk Synchron, a card from a starter deck that came out in 2008.
and this is why I hate junk speeder. It makes it where everything needs to be designed around the context of it existing which ends up meaning they make every new synchron a brick that's just a speeder target.
They really made a card that’s basically, synchro whatever the hell you want. And they can never hit it because the actual deck isn’t flexible or that great. It just summons a million things and maybe wins sometimes.
Legacy support as a concept is phenomenal. Support for a deck that fell out of favor ages ago is always appreciated.
In practice however, it's dropped the ball more often than it's added anything worthwhile. There's the infamous "just give 'em a floodgate" strategy which can be annoying if they get it to stick, but half the time the archetype it's made for has to use every resource it has just to access it. Then there's "just give them an omni-negate" which is...a mixed bag (usually bad because it's unsearchable or too slow. Often both).
The best support would take the archetype's original goal and give it a few cards that further that goal in a way that's in line with modern card design.
Me: Man I really do agree with Gage's take. It's kinda tragic but sometimes that's what you gotta do to modernize old game plans like Naturia's toolbox floodgate style
Gage: Yeah it was me
Me: FUCK I FORGOT RULE NUMBER ONE
I'm still holding out hope that we get an errata or retrain of Halq that limits its use to Crystrons or at the very least, synchro decks
Even then I think it may be an issue, look at electrumite, it would also need a hard restriction imo like beyond the pendulum or just be exclusively crystron
Same for Verte. If could only summon predaplants and search prediprime fusion it would be fine.
@@MysteriousGuardian Would also be fine if it had the stipulation, "When duplicating the effect of a polymerization or fusion spell, all material(s) used for that Fusion Summon are banished face down."
@@ivantheenigma577 i mean They still wouldn't play it since all their best cards hard lock them into fusions...... Only way to fix it is make it a contact fusion.
@@MysteriousGuardian WHY DO PEOPLE SAY THIS, PREDAPS DON'T NEED OR USE VERTE. ITS ONLY USE IS BEING A GENERIC LINK TO GET RID OF IBLEE LOCKS AND OTHER SIMILAR CRINGE.
I am honestly surprised a positive example wasn't bought up in Traptrix, that deck has both old and new cards and doesn't rely on Floodgate turbo to win games. Sera was 2019, the new structure has a wave of good cards (holeutea being borderline broken advantage wise) but despite that every deck has 3 mantis 3 myrmeleo and 1-3 dionea, some of the OGs. They show they can do it without invalidating the entire deck space, pushing a broken floodgate, breaking theme, or retraining every card
I guess a downside is more Traptrix players existing and that feels like a mistake but overall there's evidence that Komoney can really perform every now and then
Indeed. The traptrix support is very good and it gels with the OG power players of the archetype well, and it doesn't dish out skill drain or vanity's on legs.
I found a guy that can play with Athrax and "Hole from hand" turbo months ago, maybe after Traptrix new cards announced. That is actually a good example of how new cards support the old one because you can see Atrax and Nepenthes become the core of the game plan. Too bad, I cannot find his channel now.
Oddly enough they're also an ecample of horrible legacy support. Before MR4 Rafflesia obsoleted the entire archetype as a generic Rank 4 that had a deckbuilding cost of, PLAYING Bottomless.
Traptrix is legacy support on top of a few previous waves of legacy support. After Sera the deck was playable and made Rafflesia something a pure version could summon. The new support takes that playstyle and gives it more power, consistency, and resilience. Support that makes the old best board a deck could make the baseline while shortcutting a ton of steps is peak support. Circular did this for Mathmech and so did the Marincess stuff last year.
This series is fast becoming my favourite. I can't wait for when they get around to deck size.
This instantly make me think of the guys who brought a massive deck with searchers, shufflers, and burn cards to win on time. I don't know the count but it was like 2 feet (2/3 of a meter) high.
Good news, MBT has said he doesn't like long series so expect a couple more episodes and then it's gone!
honeslty you guys hould do a podcast and take sponsers. 4 very different perspectives and ways to view a topic in this game would be a fun experiment
I agree, the current premise is fun but I'd love to have a full on podcast where they just chill and actually talk in depth about these topics, like what everybody thinks, how each person would implement ideas, counter ideas, etc. I think it'd be a chill vibe.
The biggest issue with legacy support is it can often fall under the "1 broken card" category which means a deck gets a really strong support card but instantly folds if its negated. Springans taly-ho is a rota + soul charge that recurs itself but you ash it you end on nothing.
I mean Springans arent the best example since they are playable, not meta relevant by any means but waaaay more playable than other decks that have that same 1 broken card problem you perfectly described, even without taly Springans can steal games
Subterror Guru. And I say this as a moderator for the Discord server.
@@nbassasin8092 yeah i don’t think springans is a good example especially since tally ho doesn’t play the entire game by itself, champion Sargas definitely connects some of the dots that were missing while also giving access to therions + tally ho just makes it more cohesive.
@@txkyoaes5743 yeah and lets not act that springans were horrible even before newer support, they were one of the worst albaz archetypes but in comparison to the entirety of yugioh they were actually kinda decent. They wont top any YCSs anytime soon but they are consistent and strong enough to be considere respectable, even witho just tje original lineup
@@TakopathTraveler you’d have to pay me to admit that online
I really enjoyed the Ancient Gear support we got a few years back. Ballista was an amazingly designed link for the archetype, Catapult enables your game plan quite well, and Chaos Ancient Gear Giant is the perfect over-the-top finisher for the archetype. Now if we could only get some damn extenders so we don't lose to a negate on summon of Wyvern, that'd be pretty cool.
Harpies are the best example of legacy support. Initially a wholly new archetype, then further enhanced years later with new support that simply further enhances the original legacy support.
A bit unrelated, but I play shadowverse as well and they do cool stuff with legacy support. My favorite example is there was an archetype called usurpation, that created 1 cost spells in your hand called loot. Then later the lore made the leader of the archetype have a 180 on her beliefs, so instead of being a thief she believed in throwing away worldly possessions. So the new cards actually get their good effects by discarding the loot cards, which I really enjoy the design philosophy. Sorry for the long post, and sorry to other shadowverse players, I know fusion isn't technically discarding. Anyways, thanks for reading.
Based fellow Loot Sword enjoyer
I can’t wait until they start getting into format debates or deck size, this series is so much fun and is really enlightening to the game as a whole.
I believe that not only is legacy support good, its the BEST thing about yugioh and the thing that makes us different from other games.
The identity people have with their decks is huge and legacy support makes that possible
Every other tcg I've ever played has legacy support what do you mean unique
@@willgiesbrecht9318 its unique because other games don’t have the same structure that we do, with archetypes and all, so there aren’t as many people with a huge identity in 1 strategy (No set rotation also plays a part here)
@@flogos989 there are plenty of non rotating formats in other games as well. MTG has a plethora of creature tribes that receive support fairly regularly along with general deck playstyles
legacy support exists in other games with either a archtype system, like vamguard and digimon, or games that reward playing certain playstyle/keywords. anything with an eternal format tends to give legacy support.
Surprised they didn’t mention casual legacy support. Like the Egyptian god stuff. It’s not gonna make the god cards relevant (as cool as that would be), but it makes roleplaying with them significantly easier/more fun. Like, the majestic stardust dragon stuff makes it so much easier to summon that card.
We need Anti-Legacy support. Print new Rival Archetypes to battle older ones. Give me some Elemental VILLAINS!!!
Ok, but this exists and it should be fleshed out into a full archtype. Evil Heroes are just the villain versions of E-Heroes and it already has a good in archtype poly and a searcher for it. It just needs actual main deck monsters and fusion monsters so that its not a 3 card splash into mixed Heroes to pop out Malicious Bane.
bruh then its just evil hero support lmao
White magician archetype babyyy
@@claire6452we already kinda have this with the chronicles magicians lol
@@kauanjos3199 One card isn't an archetype, especially when it support the Dark Magician instead of being the "rival" asked for.
Every single one of these feels like I’m watching the “Detective Coder and friends show”, he just takes charge during the questioning section it feels like he’s the only questioning anyone and some how it’s still enjoyable.
Farfa flexing his play set of Gemini elf really set the tone for this entire episode. Love it
The LART version too
A playset of the LART Gemini Elf is less than 10 bucks
@@hxppytrigger that’s the best part about it XD
@@hxppytrigger i know. I bought mine for 8
Had the read on Gage the moment he said anything that didn't make me want to shove him in a locker.
Gonna miss this series😢❤
Where is it going?😊
Is it ending???
i think some good legacy support was the Mako tsunami stuff since it played a bit with the use the field spell for cost to activate effects and what not like the Daedalus cards did.
Honestly, Gage has the best strategy here. If he has a real take, he's a madman. If it's fake, it's calm and reasonable so nobody suspects him. This is why Gage should be on this series, he makes it WAY more interesting.
Lets give them a Skill Drain
This deck doesn't do shit and neither will yours!
I like how giving SuperGrapha a unique form of disruption that basically only helped his archetype's gameplan was actually just a fluke and they went straight back to swarming and skill drains
"What if we gave it a fucking skill drain🎶"
I am of the opinion that it depends on what playstyle the new support promotes. like, yeah sure, you do get really awful support like the stuff for blue eyes or red eyes, or even stuff that tries to take the archetype in a completely different direction like genex. but then you get really awesome support that helps modernize and maintain those older cards like the new fabled cards or the infernity support (see call of the reaper). cards like scrap raptor that help give the deck the edge it needs without sacrificing its playstyle are exactly what legacy support should be. then you get support that changes the playstyle in a positive way like the most recent ice barrier support or dare i say even the six samurai support from STOR format. point being it depends on what konami chooses to make the archetype focus on.
The Scrap support was crazy with Raptor
Gate Guardian would be better if they make a new Sanga of the Thunder, Kazejin and Suijin that has effects when they are in the Spell & Trap Zone or just let you place them in the Spell & Trap Zone for the Fusions that need them on the field.
I'm bad at names but they could call them Sanga of the Thunderstorm, Tornado Kazejin and Tsunami Suijin.
Ideally they would make Sanga, Kazejin and Suijin into pendulum monsters, just tack on a name change to the original either at all times such as with the early harpy lady variants or like with Shari Red where they apply for all relevant locations. Maybe make them scale 7 with a +/- 1 depending on which zone they are in or if just add the search effect of the field spell and Laberynth Heavy Tank(maybe just for one specific member instead of any, I.E. water sets wind, wind sets thunder, thunder sets water or similar) to make the 2 piece fusions more accessible.
@@uaeoaeoeoi Yeah that's a great idea I'm not that good at making decks heck I completely forgot about pendulum monsters when writing my original comment.
Legacy support is honestly something that should really be worked on more to be expanded on archetypes. Of course not all archetypes can have their old cards be usable but a support that evokes the same spirit as the original should be used. Obviously not just floodgates, but actual support cards that either make more modern archetypess have an easier time to do their main plays or older ones that have retrains of the original since not everything would be playable and many older cards would just become bricks.
I think that the new Superheavy support is really good, the archetype needs some work, but not nearly as much as it used to, and on top of this, Superheavy still uses cards back from the literal first release, Benkei is still used, most of the OG synchros are still pretty good, hell the new level 12 isn't 100% better than Steam train King, it just provides the deck an easier way to put a 12 on field.
Cant wait to see which take will give me an aneurysm today
@Deus Nox i actually agreed with him (at the end)
Farfa saying Sistart was bad was it for me
honestly would've said MBT cause when asked about hero he avoided the fact that his favorite card of all time is a floodgate
I love legacy support but boy are they the biggest handtrap targets. Simorgh bird, Dream Mirror card, etc. They need more.
What’s really funny is that HERO is a floodgate deck. Plasma, Dark Law, Dark Angel
YES! this archetypes turn 1 is lame as FUCK
Plasma was given to Hero during its initial run in GX so by definition it's not "legacy support floodgate"
Would it be better if they had negates instead?
@@thestormtrooperwhocanaim496 Yes, I can play around 3 negates, I can't around Macro, an Anti-Search effect, Skill Drain, and Imperial Order.
@@Powerman293 That's a fair point, but Dark Law and Dark Angel have no excuses
I think an interesting counter point when MBT argued that structure deck archetypes tend to only allow the new cards, decks like traptrix play a lot of the old stuff and the new stuff helps the deck further it's game plan rather than builds a new game plan
Even using his Dark World example is not completely correct either, half the cards used are the old ones, and all that new ones do is further the game plan of the old ones.
Only Dionea and Mymerllo are really old, the rest was released as a legacy support, almost all the most played trap holes were released during the Link era.
@@ketsura3618 yes in the link era the deck received stuff like sera but pretty much every archetype received a new link monster, my point was that the gameplan of the deck hasn't changed since the structure deck was released but some of the cards have furthered the capabilities of the deck making it a legit rogue deck
I don’t know what MBT was talking about the Dark World Structure. Yeah now the strategy revolves around Genta and Reignbow jerking each other off for 20 minutes, but that’s all for the purposes of getting to utilize the old Dark World cards for all their non once per turn glory.
As for the old first generation Dark World cards like Grenn, you didn’t play those anyway even before the structure came out.
Man I absolutely adore the outro slow blackout everytime
7:18
Ok this is actually incorrect
Ishizu's one onscreen duel had her using exchange of the spirit, and the Ishizu cards even came out with a retrained Exchange of the Spirit, some even let you search it. So the reason the Ishizu cards are the way they are is to facilitate that gameplan
Legacy support is, as with so many things in Yu-Gi-Oh, a good idea with horribly inconsistent implementation quality. When will your deck get support? No one knows. Will they try and start fresh with retrains or create increasingly convoluted ways to get old cards out? No one knows. Will the retrains be powerful and faithful or so mediocre that people just play the old versions? No one knows. Will they give you Suship style names, or Buster Blader names? No one knows. Will they boost the most powerful part of a deck or try and salvage a long abandoned boss monster that everyone gave up on? No one freakin knows. Will they add a new extra deck card type the deck has never interacted with before? Probably.
The darklord support was amazing support, it gave the deck an actual end board and goal/payoff. It would be nice for more fusions, and fusion spells, however.
I think the best version of legacy support is when they drop about 4 new cards that intentionally work with the old ones, even if it's not going to bring a deck to modern relevancy. The Ghostrick support is the best example of this. Festival, Shot, and Trick or Treat are amazing support cards(I'm actually blanking on Sirien rn) that made the deck infinitesimally more playable without breaking out any one overpowered card. All it did was 'hey why don't we give them a starter and a new way to deal with links and a negate with a time rule win attached'
My absolute favorite series on all of youtube and yall don't make enough of these.
I love the blackwings support that came out in DABL, it's really good, adds a way to recycle resources (2, actually), adds synchro focussed cards (before this it was just ultimate falcon turbo+Kali yuga) which is of course the theme of the deck and gives you a reason to play black winged dragon that otherwise wouldn't be even played because terrible by itself. Overall a good boost for the deck with a way to play older cards along with the new ones
Just curious. Do you think a searcher for Black Bird Close for Blackwings legacy support would be OP?
@@thepuzzycatzz4313 no not really. You already have one, Sudri, but you for sure prefer to use its search on something more useful for your combos. It's a good counter trap that could negate nibiru for example since it can be activated from the hand but you already have a way to play around nibiru in the Kali yuga version of the deck at least
Edit: i was wrong, it can't negate nibiru because it has to be a monster your opponent controls that activates its effect, otherwise it could have been a useful tech against our most hated enemy, The Rock
I love how Gage's camera had the chair in the background in focus and he himself was a blurry mess. 10/10 Gage. We love you.
I was a big fan of the support wave that came out of LINK Vrains. Yes the quality varied greatly and it was just one Link per Archetype. But it was really exciting to see the new Links be revealed bit by bit and finding out which deck got a new staple and which deck got shafted.
I love Mayakashi, and I am so happy to get Link 3 Yuki Onna.
But HOLY SHIT is "Ghost Meets Girl - A Masterful Mayakashi Shiranui Saga" a card of all time.
It is way too good to not play, but you also need to just revolve your endboard completely around it, since you might need to spend your "Mayakashi Return" search on it, not to mention either sacrifice off your yuki onna, or get an additional Synchro Monster on the field just to trigger it.
And for what? To vanities your opponent for one turn and hope you can then play through the backrow interruption, after already investing all your resources into the stupid trap the previous turn
My favorite type of legacy support is the one that is synergistic with the old card within the archetype, give reason to run old cards within the archetype and isn't overly generic. Personally not a big fan of skill drain type effect either
I think MBT brings up a good point where giving support to relatively new archetype makes more sense while for old archetype they basically need an overhaul (retrain) to make it even rogue tier. The rikka support is quite good in making the combo much smoother than "petal snowdrop pass". In madolche Pettingcess and Antjelly makes the archetype a lot more playable but I am still sad that majority of Madolche card in the past just doesn't make the cut due to the awkward synergy they have
gotta be honest I feel like we need a term specific to support for archetypes/series from the last two to three years, because I feel like that is significantly different from "true" legacy support, which I think of as, for instance, the cards from the link vrains pack to help strategies from before the link era work at all in the modern game
Ok but have you seen the Traptrix and Unchained support? It's absolutely perfect in supporting what they've already been doing.
Ok you can argue that the Sera-generation support for Traptrix completely changed what the archetype does, which is fair.
1:00-1:10 (edit) Yes from a lore and nostalgia perspective. No from a playability perspective. It’s puzzling how the most iconic cards in the game are given mid-level support at best (Dark Magician). Most of the time they just end up being a meme deck with one key card or engine used as a tech tool in a better deck. i’m getting sick and tired of the wide disparity in inherent power levels in a mainly one format game. Tearlaments were born the best deck by a mile and Gate Guardians need 24/7 supervision from Magicians’ Souls and Elemental Hero Prisma in order to actually function, taking away precious flex slots. Now if the payoff were worth the slot investment that would be one thing. It’s not.
Yeah, frankly I'd rather if they're gonna pump out a bunch of legacy support for iconic cards like DM and blue eyes, make it nuts, make it awesome, make it what they actually need to be competitive, otherwise what. Is even. The damn. Point.
I'd rather they release busted support or nothing at all instead of incredibly luke warm additions that still leave each deck basically unplayable.
I do hecking love legacy support.
With no set rotation decks need new cards to adapt to newer formats, or simply they really could just use a new toy from time to time. Sure, the newer support might still not make the deck meta relevant but, for instance, as a fan of Karakuri, all the new cards in Ignition Assault were awesome, not a single bad one. Sure the deck saw no meta play, but if for whatever reason I wanna play Karakuri in a modern setting I can now change battle positions with quick effects, changing battle positions can convert into banishes and I can more easily Synchro climb, fantastic support, took what the deck already did and made it more efficient, gave it payoffs for doing it, chef's kiss. I love when we get stuff like that, again, even if it doesn't make the deck meta.
Then there's stuff like Salamangreat Zebroid X and Blaze Dragon, have you guys heard of those? Zebroid X exists to make Salamangreat rank 4's, which the deck has plenty, such as Blaze Dragon and... Blaze Dragon. And what does Blaze Dragon do? It's an indesdructible xyz while it has material that can go into other Salamangreat XYZs during the battle phase, if it has no material(?????) and if it goes into itself you get a pop. Like... What? It sounds like you get better pops with Rage and if you wanna go into Miragestallio you just go into Miragestallio to begin with. So I do agree with Farfa that sometimes decks get new cards that just don't help them at all, it's basically pack filler and not even fun pack filler for the people who like the deck.
I also have to agree giving archetypes floodgates out of nowhere is just bad design.
As to what Gage brought up with Naturia, that the new cards eclipse the old ones and you have no reason to even play the old ones, while I agree it would be cool if the support made stuff like Cherries and Cliff playable, decks such as Naturia are in a weird spot because the archetype is so disjointed. What did a Naturia deck do before the support? What was the synergy? How do you support a deck that had barely any existing synergy before?
5:40 I'm glad Joe brought this up as it's something I've felt about legacy support for a while. Most notably with the Ice Barrier SD. Now look I understand making an archetype like that good would be difficult but if you're playing IB you're just playing 2-3 of each new card and maybe like 2 total cards old cards. And at that point the structure may as well have been a new archetype.
Also personally I don't really mind when worse decks get a floodgate, like yeah it's lazy card design but if it plays into the style of the deck or it's just there for a slower deck to keep up it's really not that bad. Alot of the recent legacy floodgates have barely done anything anyway. I'd say Rexturm is the most notable one but he's part of a trap deck so he fits.
Wait hold on, ignoring the entire video... the end of video music slowdown into the the standard sub outro is tight as hell!
I really liked OG Noble Knights ever since Legacy of the Duelist. It's what got me back into Yu-Gi-Oh and the first Archetype that ever genuinely loved to play. I thought they did a good job with it's legacy support. Sure, Isolde is a bit generic, but most decks can't even use her, she requires that you play equip spells which there are only a few generic good ones, and Noble Knights ultimately get the most out of her. Heritage is a Rota for both names and archetype equips, that can occasionally recycle itself. Glory is a quickplay to equip from deck. Custennin and Ivyanne help the deck get multiple guys on board and Sacred Custennin provides an additional boss, that gives the deck a different form of removal as well as added protection and assistance Xyz summoning. Until Noble Arms are Needed gives them a duality and special from deck. Clarent lets them circumvent Towers type monsters and Morgan was a hand trap. They all brought something that the deck wanted and none of them were overpowered.
I also really love the Infernoble Knights as a shift from the Xyz focused Noble Knights to a Synchro focused strategy. It let's the deck easily go into High Laundsallyn, which was difficult before, and keep the ability to use their Xyz monsters. It fixes the issue of how over-reliant Noble Knights were on their normal summon. Multiple Noble Knight cards are still playable in Infernoble, even going back to the first wave of Knights such as Brothers. It takes the equip focus to the next level by having monsters that can become equips for useful effects, such as battle immunity, destruction protection and targetting protection. Good at generating advantage and recycling resources. Charles is an outstanding boss that has the old Protect The Castle energy that the old deck had with Artorigus while being able to make itself stronger as the game progresses and give you multiple more opportunities to generate advantage, interrupt your opponent, and thin your deck.
I got a look at the new stuff and I'm super excited. I've been wanting Noble Knights to get a new field spell and a link 1 for a while and I got that and more and it all looks good. I can't wait to play those cards.
Imo six sams are the best example of this, reskins but added an extra word on front, legendary secret etc
Wake up, babe. New magical hats episode just dropped
I think a very nice retain/new archetype would be flames swordsman
That would be so cool. Would love a flame swordsman archetype
I am frustrated that the arguments got bogged down in the the "1 broken card" and the "Generic Link" kind of legacy support making it bad, when the former ends up being an extremely small minority of all legacy support(but also the most memorable one, which is why people think these happen more often than not) and the latter is the unfortunate side effect of MR4.
They needed to print the Generic Synchro Link, Generic Fusion Link, Generic Xyz Link and whatever not as quickly as possible because they made A LOT of cardboard literally unplayable. The side effects of this are that a lot of the more restrictive archtypes had to get their own seperate Links, like Junk Connector or Cherubini, even if in some cases they already could not summon the Link and use some of their effects the same turn(but the alternate is only ever playing with one zone). That being said Junk Connector is a very odd example to bring up when Connector is the earlier support and Speeder came later, and would therefore be the Legacy support that doesn't play with the rest(though the TCG appears to have gotten them together which is where the confusion comes from)
But if look at the actual state of legacy support we just need to go over the most recent 2-3 sets and everything that ha been announced for the next set in the OCG to see barely any of the complaints hold, but I guess if Dino ends up being top tier and the new Evolzar terrorises the meta by some wild twist of fate, then people are gonna probably ignore it came along with two other Evol monsters that won't make the archtype good, but certainly made it more fun for any fan of it(same with the poor forgotten Mayakashi Link 3 because they put a floodgate next to her).
Personal example, the new evol support. Yes the XYZ is great and godlike. I'm referring to the two new main decks. Instead of fixing issues with the deck,like ability to extend,they just gave us a searcher for the trap and a searcher for the spell. And the spell is only a one for one unless you have 1 specific monster in hand with the spell. We needed special summoning power,not the ability to revive one facedown from GY. In an XYZ deck. And yes I know u can revive najasho facedown to tribute,but how lucky do you need to be to put two monsters in the board
5:00
Print em a skill drain!
Print em a skill drain!
Print em a skill drain!
Print em a skill drain!
Print em a skill drain!
Print em a skill drain!
Print em a skill drain!
Print em a skill drain!
This was briefly brushed over in the video, but how about the archetypes that never get legacy support? Like never!
I'm surprised none of them mentioned the traptrix structure deck and how amazing it was as legacy support in that most of your deck IS the old cards!
You're still normaling myrmeleo, still using mantis, still playing a bunch of trapholes, still making r4 xyz to support your backrow
I love it
If a deck has some older cards that are good, Legacy Support is nice to have. Otherwise it's like playing an entire new deck with retrains and shared themes with stuff you're familiar with. I see no problem with either of these things.
I think most gripes with it are just releasing cards that don' t do enough compared to recent powercreep, or that don't even fit with their original archetype cards. That's less a problem with the act of providing legacy support than its implementation though.
My shitty take about legacy support: the game has so many archetypes and so many strategies at this point that Konami could spend a year or two without printing a single new archetype and it would be fine, just making new support for both things that were great in the past but wore off with time, and for things that were not that good/were bad.
Not that I want them to do it, but at the same time they release so many new archetypes each year that the list just piles up and it gets harder and harder for niche archetypes to get new things, even beloved archetypes like Kozmo or Volcanic.
Personally we have very mixed views on legacy support, and that just comes down to the decks we've ended up liking. There's a dichotomy in cards that aren't "here's a floodgate". On one hand, you have the 2020 Karakuri lineup. An excellent set of cards which gave the deck a game plan, and a way to accomplish it consistently and effectively. It could still use more, the deck has serious issues, not least of which is that its ROTA is basically useless, but every new card was good and gave the deck some real punch while keeping as much of its identity as possible.
And then you have the Sky Striker "support", which we do not understand the purpose of. The game is too fast for whatever the hell it's trying to do, and not only do most of the cards do almost nothing for it, the Magi turn off your striker spells. Linkage is really good, really versatile, and closes up some weaknesses, but it's one card out of...what, five?
So, yeah, very mixed feelings on the execution of legacy support by Konami.
And no, we're not saying the Karakuri support made it good. It's shit. But it's now shit that does anything at all.
anyone else focus on gage's house more than hey focused on him?
the camera wanted G A G E H to be fuzzy
love magical hats! more of this please :)
Ngl I love the shade thrown at Blue eyes and DM. Other anime characters should've gotten the spotlight when it was the same old duo
If you're open to prompt suggestions. Ide love to hear peoples ideas on removing limited /semi limited and only have a ban list. I personally believe limiting doesn't solve card power problems in most instances. It just makes the game more of a sac fest
I'd love to hear their takes on this too. Limiting cards just feels annoying to me. It's like saying "this card isn't bad enough to be outright banned, but I think it'd be great if you bricked more"
Recent examples in master duel I got a little annoyed when they semi limited branded opening, aluber, and Longyuan. Like did it actually hurt those decks? No not really. All it did was hurt their consistency a little, which ultimately boils down to being a "fuck you" change.
@@SknowingWolf 100% agree
idk what naturia plays anymore, but I recall pineapple and bamboo shoot to be pretty ok, it would be cool if that archetype could use them more
I didn't knew naturia was at this point, heck, Bamboo shoot is a strong card and I don't know why they don't use It anymore... Kinda sad.
I love this show not even for the game aspect. I just love seeing conversations about yugioh like this play out.
1:05 Farfa loving his LART Gemini Elves lol
Archetypes coming back through the years is one of YuGiOhs best selling points, like, Fire Kings were forgotten for almost a decade and then they recieved their structure and it just happens that Fire is the best Attribute rn.
Even when they become a Floodgate.deck, like Shaddoll Invoked, seeing a deck back from the abyss is one of the best feelings ever... for a week or so...
Have really enjoyed this series
Farfa missed the biggest card he could have mentioned...
Subterror Behemoth Fiendess
A Link Monster...In an Archtype that requires all your monsters be able to be turned facedown to Special Summon your big beaters and boss effect monsters...A Link Monster...Who can never be turned Facedown.
The Spell Cards are Unsearchable by Guru, despite how great they are...
I definitely get that sometimes an old archetype just doesn’t work in the modern game, but I knew it was Gage when he said he enjoyed the names of these archetypes being taken and used to excite players with basically an entirely new archetype.
The entire reason that I’d enjoy legacy support is to play an older deck that I loved. Like in Dark World, I’m still playing Beiige, Snoww, Ceruli, Sillva, Grapha, and even Goldd.
I’m still discarding my monsters for cool effects, but now the fusion gives me something to end on, Genta gives me a great starter, the fusion spell is immaculate, and retrained reign-beaux is a card I didn’t think I needed. I honestly thought reign-beaux was doomed cause of Dark World shenanigans never working, but now only one of them is. I get that reign-beaux wasn’t gonna be playable otherwise, but reign-beaux was never playable (as far as I know, I’m not the oldest or most experienced player, so I could not know about something), so I’m not upset cause I didn’t lose anything. I’m still not playing that card, but now there’s a Reign-Beaux in my deck in some way shape or form.
a better example than cherubini is protector whelp. a card that (within buster blader) boosts its intended strategy 10 fold. but in any other deck, becomes an enabler for bust lock as a generic splashable card. however, it sees no play. its even more accessible and better off than artifact scythe and dagda ever was, yet it sees no play because people arent willing to set up the equiping part of the combo.
which functionally turns buster whelp into a card that is only played in buster blader, even if they pay up for a lengthy set up is broken, its still not worth it unless its in its intended archetype. this is how a card can be both generic and balanced.
'generic' doesnt mean good. 'usable' does. just because a card is easily accessable, doesnt make it borken,
"ass blast the beast boy" -gage 2023
I am super excited for the upcoming Altergeist support, also, I am really terrified for the upcoming Altergeist support
Honestly, one and only thing for a legacy support I want is to be playable. I even love Halq, Verte, Magician Soul, although Isolde (for its time) and Ishizu were a bit too much.
By good I don't necessarily mean tear 1. Naturia, Traptrix and maybe even Dark World (although that couldn't come out in worse time) and HERO are great as well. I just think that if you won't use tge cards in your locals, they shouldn't be printed.
I love legacy support and really agree with Gage's take. Stuff like Mathmech Circular, which not only neatly fits into the archetype but also fixes most of its problems AND is a powerful card on its own is VERY satisfying
I've changed my mind; this is the best Magical Hats episode. Good takes all around
I'm still waiting for legacy support for Yang Zing.
Just make the old cards not miss timing, archetype saved.
@@Ragnarok540 I wish it was that easy, but having denglong back and a link 1 that is really good for the deck would be great.
You mean for Swordsoul since every Wyrm deck is Swordsoul support now😁😂
Jokes aside Im more than down, Wyrms are generally not represented enough and Yang Zings are cool, they should just errata the old ones, give some small buff in 2-3 new cards and theyd be fine fun archetype that you could combine with other Wyrms
@@nbassasin8092 I agree, Yang Zing is my favorite deck of all time, and they were a viable deck during INOV with denglong and nine pillars, I really just want them to be a viable deck again.
@@Linkiscool115 Viable is a tough one, as they are a bit slow for modern yugioh, but they could be playable for sure, firstly Denglong is overdue to come off the banlist, and secondly they just need another card that can make them a bit faster to activate, some new spell or monster that does that (or both) would do the trick
however, i still think people would use them more as a supplement for Swordsoul than standalone deck. But IMO it would be cool to have the big 3 of Wyrm archetypes combined into 1 deck (they are already, but Yang zings are only present in the extradeck unfortunately)
All this legacy support has me thinking, when are we getting a Skull Servant Structure. Enough of this one new skull servant every 3-6 years
Sistart helps with our backrow, also it is used as way to fill GY or clean GY, but.. that was one card for whole link era, and it is link 2
Wasn't their whole point to end on VFD or DPE plus the OTHER Scythe, and pray it won them the game for free?
I'm gonna be that guy
But while Sistart wasn't needed at the time, it's valuable now because the backrow is so important for Madolche. Her effect to shuffle back another Madolche monster instead of being destroyed is also valuable because it procs those same spells she protects.
She wasn't what we needed at the time (but was at least some arrows pointing down so we could have multiple xyz in master rule 4) but every other piece of legacy Madolche support since then has been an absolute banger and she has just gotten better with time.
Honestly I'm just mostly upset that the legacy support we get is mainly for archetypes that already had their time in the spotlight and have been at least meta relevant to some degree in the past 5yrs.
Just saying...there's over 400 archetypes in the game and it seems like only the most recent 25 meta relevant archetypes get more. Once in a blue moon you will see a card or 2 for an archetype.
And if we do get retrains of Halq and Verte, can we make them synchros and fusion respectively that do basically the same thing, except more xeno locked since this isn't MR4 anymore
I unironically love this series.
Gage picked a weird archetype to go in on since sacred beast did nothing before their structure deck.
This is why I'm adamant that thunder dragon is one of the best legacy archetypes made to date
Thunder dragon isnt just a nice way to thin your deck, or a brick. As a thundra player, having played multiple variants of the deck, i genuinely love seeing 1 copy of thunder dragon in my opening hand. It is such an incredibly useful card, thinning the deck, discard fodder, pops with a Titan out, maybe fusing it to make colossus, banish fodder for a bystial if needed just the tool box Versatility of this card is insane and the thunder dragon archetype as a deck utilizes it so well
Also to be fair, i don't mind. A completely redesigned archetype. BUT i want to logically be able to see how that redesign came about. Like, i want to look at the old card, look at the new card, and go "oh this is like, following the spirit of what the og card did. But its actually good or at least does something "
Gage's background lookin' CLEAN
A good exemple of a complete rework of an archetype given a different name was the Paléozoïque into Eldlicht, same concept but vastly different power level.
Paleozoic and Eldlich? I kind of get what you mean with trap monsters but the two decks are not really alike at all besides that.
@@TheWizardMus They share more similarity than Vampire and Naturia with their new support, they both are trap monsters deck with various powerfull effect that summon more body from the graveyard, Paleo was 2 drops for XYZ and Links, and Eldlich is a beefy 2500 monster that never go away.
The best piece of Legacy Support is Wightbaking. It's not entirely necessary to resolve but it helps out immensely. It also doesn't invalidate previous members of the Archetype, although that's more Skull Servants's dripfeed over the years sticking to a cohesive strategy.
Farfa spittin the Goddamn Truth! That disparity is so irritating. That's why it was so funny when Albaz was getting a bunch of support to wrap up his story, but the next time you see new support for say "Heroes" all complaints of over support seem to vanish.
The whole thing derailing from legacy support into retrains is what I'm here for
Mekk-Knight Orcust Girsu-esque support is the kind of shit I love to see, unreal powerful 0 generic use
Synchron is a good example of legacy support done right. Mind you it does support a few archetypes and I guess it's an anime protagonist archetype but I'd also argue that it's legacy support done right sometimes.
I think that as long as an archetype's playstyle still fits its theming then completely revamping a bad archetype is OK. The change from Vampires to a monster stealing xyz deck is so much better than the poorly aged bleed effect that the old vampires relied on. Though, there are a lot of other examples where the transition is nowhere near as thematically smooth. (Red-Eyes being the most obvious example)
My problem with the Gate Guardian support is not that you have to run the Gate Guardian pieces, but that the new support just isn't strong enough. Accessing the 3 material fusion is incredibly easy, but targeting protection is just not enough these days, even if it's on all your cards. Two of the two mats are better, but they are also somehow harder to summon than the 3 mat because Konami were cowards and didn't make them all ABC Buster Dragons. Heck, the floating effects of the spell/traps should special summon or shuffle draw the pieces not add them to your bloody hand because unless you are making the 3 mat, they're just stuck there
I'm surprised no one brought up the animals Ninja support. It is amazing and well designed