Lemme share with you just one personal statistics: I was working in Silicon Valley back in the early 1980's (and later in other places around the world, but with the chip fabrication industry) and over the years I get to know a lot of people who worked inside the fab facilities. Almost 40 years of experience, those who I (used to) know who worked inside the fab, 90% either have died, or are suffering from all kinds of illnesses. Of those who do not work inside the fab buildings, at least 60% are still alive. Chip fabrication process costs lives.
When I first, and recently started listening to your channel, I was impressed enough to subscribe: I judged your research was thorough. However with this video, and your reporting on sulphuric acid, and cancer... clearly you are not a chemist, or an oncologist, and also clearly you are talking through your hat. Stick to things you know... not to things you think you know... but, clearly don't.
@@willthecat3861 A whole array of chemical used in semiconductor manufacturing can and should be classified as *"Superfund Hazardous Waste"* They include : Solvents such as trichloroethylene and denatured ethanol; Photoresist chemicals such as phenol formaldehyde, ethylene glycol ethers and 2-Methoxyethanol. There are just too many to be listed here.
1974, was an associate engineer (newly engineer graduate) at Raytheon Semiconductor, acids and solvents were dumped into the same drains which emptied into the bay. One time experienced a violent reaction when the previous person didn’t flush the drain with water and then aqua regia was poured into the same drain. This was the standard practice, didn’t know better. Located on Ellis Street in Mt. View just down the street from Fairchild. Remembered the car windshield got pitted after a while, probably from the HF fumes. They were the “cowboy days” of semiconductor.
Everybody used to do it everywhere. Lots of labs, used only lead pipes in the drains: no copper. What's 250 ml of aqua regia into the sanitary sewer?: some pissed off e. coli. What's 250 ml of aqua regia into the storm sewer?: some very very very dilute aqua regia. The problem is when everybody does it; and, everybody does it a lot. Phosphates from laundry detergents caused a lot more problems in water courses than some random drops of aqua regia. And anyways, no one working in a lab dumps random chemicals down the drain anymore. Fabs in China... fabs anywhere a big problem? ... not really... millions of random citizens dumping everything from turtles to tetracycline down the pooper: ya.
The ghosts of silicon valley are made evident when one looks at a map of superfund sites in the area. The aqua regia has probably all decomposed by now, but the more complex solvents are deep in the ground. To be fair a lot of it was also generated at Moffett.
I commend you for a very ambitous review. I am a research chemist who worked in semiconductor process development in the 1980's in the US. Chemists probably have a different view of hazards than what you might find on Google. You mentioned sulfuric acid, because it pops out in terms of volume used. Believe me, chemists don't worry about sulfuric acid. Semiconductior production might use truly horrific chemicals, such as HF. asenic, antimony, or phosgine, albeit in tiny amounts. These compounds are probably thousands or times more toxic but get under reported since EPA reporting in too focused on pounds released. So, how should the risks be assessed by using studies and published reports? That's a tough one.
I bet you’ve got some cool stories. I am purely a layman, but find chemistry fascinating. I love Derek Lowe’s ‘Things I Won’t Work With’ articles and I have a feeling the semiconductor industry works with at least a few chemicals worthy of inclusion to such a list.
As a chemist college I agree, chemists do not worry much about sulfuric acid. It is easy to control in a laboratory setting. And yes, the EPA and other agencies focus too much on production volumes or inconclusive studies to ban great chemicals like the famous DDT that saved maybe millions of lives in poor nations, leaving them without alternatives. Meanwhile, really nasty chemical working conditions still exist here in the US, especially in republican states like South Carolina. These states are actually miniversions of China or Mexico, at best. I come from Mexico and have seen at least one worse factory here in SC. Unfortunately, regulations have been a disappointing solution sometimes. DDT and other useful chemicals like PCBs got banned, maybe more due to being good targets for lawsuits. Whole industries were either destroyed or sent overseas, like semiconductors. Meanwhile, other well proven toxic chemicals like lead, is still present in several pipes all over the USA. Local states are not very worried about it. Vermont, for instance, is planning to upgrade internet connection, if I recall well. Fortunately. Asianometry well shows the critical benefits of regulation in California back in the 60's and 70's (min 11:00), truly protecting the population from poisons dumped in the sewage by industries.
@@Nowhere-from the main reason why DDT was banned is not the human health factors but the damage it could and did do to the environment by doing its intended job, and because it accumulated more and more the higher up the food chain it got. Modern insecticides degrade faster after use, accumulate less rapidly when going up the food chain, and ideally don't just nuke all insects they come in contact with but instead just target some specific group of insects you need gone.
Toxicity is pretty much why the entire US chemical industry moved to China...and BTW, thanks for bringing up this aspect of the electronics industry. People' don't realize what a gigantic source of environmental impact our fancy gadgets have!
The electronics industry's legacy of pollution predates the age of semiconductors... back when PCB's (Polychorinated Biphenols, not printed circuit boards) were used in transistors and capacitors. They were dumped into open freshwater supplies - including drinking water sources - as well as cooling water resevoirs and also contaminated ground water. Although not as heart-wrenching as miscarriage and birth defect, the impacted regions have something of a reputation as breast-cancer hot spots, although a statistically robust causation link has never been established. Bottom line: Rome had it's lead pipes and goblets. Modern digital societies have our electronic gadgets.
If things are in such a total shambles that your workers are somehow inhaling H2SO4 mist, your fab has way, WAY, *WAYYYYYY* bigger and more immediate problems to worry about than potential increased rates of cancer in decades to come; like, ya know, making sure the walls and ceilings don't crumble to pieces and collapse. It's just not an issue in chip fabs. The main concerns in semi manufacturing should be acute risks of wildly toxic gasses (arsine, phosphine, hydrogen selenide, etc.), which are relatively easily managed with appropriate engineering measures for supply gas sources, and chronic risks of heavy metal, volatile organic solvent, and halogenated persistent organic pollutant wastes in both gas and water plant effluent. With modern wastewater and waste gas treatment technologies all of these contaminants can be reduced to practically zero, it's just a question of how clean the company wants to go and how much the company wants to pay for.
Sulfuric acid is the least of anybody's worries in a semiconductor fab. What this does not highlight quite enough is the personnel who work directly on equipment in a fab. At least half of the personnel inside a fab work directly on equipment which processes wafers (excluding workers who support fab supporting equipment like gas/chemical supply, vacuum pumps, abatement systems, which would push the % well above half, depending on whether the fab uses an AMHS or AGS) who, despite safety measures, are regularly directly exposed to byproducts during work. The issue is not a large concentration of noxious or carcinogenic compounds or acids in ambient fab air, as was supposed and was ridiculed... In my experience, aside from semiconductor toxic solid waste management, exposure of workers to compounds (concentrations above or below OSHA standards) regularly is still a substantial risk. For example, plasma etch chamber maintenance requires periodic mechanical cleaning\ scrubbing of fluorides and polymers from the vacuum chamber walls and interior components. The scrubbing can provide sufficient heat to decompose fluorinated polymers if it is not kept cool enough, which presents the opportunity to form HF or Hydrofluoric Acid vapor in your face if there is sufficient moisture on your scrubbing pad or enough humidity in the air. Many stringent engineered solutions, standards and procedures are indeed implemented in these processes, but those are so far from perfect in the little understood, cost sensitive world of plasma cocktails and other semiconductor manufacturing processes. It is an incredibly toxic and polluting industry... Most people outside the industry have nooooooooo idea.
Nothing works like that, Mr. Muonuim. The factory wall at best might just get discolored in 2-3 decades. Nothing is gonna crumble down like Hollywood movie. Rather, harm comes slowly but permanently - like you might suddenly hear one colleague working in a separate facility recently had an abortion, an older colleague died of cancer soon after retirement, etc.
@@tanner3801 ...and that is why everybody in the industry gets safety training at least once a year. If you work maintenance or chemicals you get additional job specific training. I do automation (never touched anything more dangerous than Isopropanol) and got this year's training about a month ago. Also, at least where I come from (Europe), government regulations are so strict that the grilled sausage I eat on my way home is much more carcinogenic than anything I was likely exposed to during afull day in the clean room. Yes, I'm more worried about amides than HF - I eat the amides without safety, the HF is locked away and I got training on what to do if it gets out of the pipe.
When I came to San Jose in 1987, there was a bit of a scandal that got printed up in the Mercury news. Seems a tester for the city had found a lot of toxic materials in the sewer, heavy metals and chemicals. That turns out to be easy to track. They just keep taking samples from the sewer upstream until they find where the materials no longer exist, then they have found the outlet of the chemicals. At that time, Intel was running a fab, and they were cited. However, there were others on the list. As the video says, it was a shock to many here who believed that the silicon fabs were "clean" industries.
I lived in Taoyuan for about seven years and it was surprising just how many of my friends had family or their friends who had died of some kind of cancer, quite often stomach cancer, or another.
Sulfuric acid gives you cancer due to damage. Because it is so damaging you will feel it if you are exposed. It is the least of my concerns. I’m much more concerned about organics in photoresist and byproducts of plasma etching.
HF is especially scary, a drop of it can permeate your skin and eat through the calcium ions in your nerves, you'd feel nothing much for the first few days
I worked in a fab almost 40 years ago. I was very worried about this. The main problem I saw was solvents. They used acetone and a lot of other solvents to clean and to suspend photoresist etc. I only stayed on that job for less than a year, but I've always felt it was a liability. They tell you everything is so clean - but exactly - with respect to the wafers.
The joke when I was still in college was that the more toxic and dangerous a chemical was the better and more effective it was in semiconductor manufacturing. Being from the Bay Area, I know for a fact that there is a plaza across from Cupertino HS that they purposely kept empty for decades for fear of the contamination from the facilities that used to sit on top of it. Only fairly recently did they allow that land to be developed. There is now a Target and several restaurants there.
What I am going to share is REAL. I once had a supplier who had to shut down the fab because the safety alarm system malfunction and did not detect toxicity leak in the air. The fab was eventually vacated because the stainless steel furniture in the clean room started to turn green from the corrosion. Beat that !!!
I have been in the industry in various fabs for 30 years, and although I agree with some of your points I would indicate that I have not seen any incentive for factories to cut corners during build (in US). That is to say, that the EHS activities are in place and discussed during fab build and maintenance activities and whether a factory would do more, would need to be tied to a cost trade off. Good video.
I have been working in this industry for 30 years. I have worked at TSMC Taiwan, Intel AZ and Oregon, Texas Instruments, Samsung Korea, Micron Ut and Boise. I installed systems and maintained system. This is absolutely the safest industry in the world to work in. This video is click bait.
@@记住天安门广场 I agree Taiwan is a country and have met some impressive Taiwanese. Your resume is quite impressive. If I ever have questions about your industry can I call you?😀
@@记住天安门广场 you should tell that to the women in Samsung factory. After their health problems surfaced, Samsung pretty much just ignore them completely and let them die.
@@ericreed4535 I am just a simple observer working in the industry for many years. At one time it was unsafe in the beginning, today the industry is very safe. Almost to the point of being annoying.
I'd say the industry is probably trending towards safer processes, maybe not out of express concern for the workers, but because the newer processes require a lot more precision and are even more sensitive to impurities
We all like to hope. But if you look at the fab process summarized at @2:00, these chemical has to be washed out. Also, doesn't mind the nanometer, the chemicals are required as per production volume. The only hope is that the massive volume used might make recycling more economic than buying new batches. But that'll only cover some, relatively benign chemicals like H2SO4.
There are quite a few EPA Superfund sites in Silicon Valley where former semiconductor fabs were because back in the 70s people really didn't give a second thought to how all those chemicals were disposed.
Was a tech at Texas Instruments (TI) and they used a wide variety of chemicals to manufacture and and perfect the etching of their chips. It's just mind boggling to think how hazardous the environment is. The OEM Invested a large chunk of money for training new talents to ensure safety.
Some of the Google Buildings are built on the "Middlefield/Ellis/Whisman" Superfund Site, brought to us by NEC, Fairchild, and one other "clean" semiconductor company.
Superfund is where an environmental disaster evolves on such a scale that a US company, local state, and federal state all have to finance the cleanup isn't it? I remember it being used a lot around the issue of radium-factories
I have been working in this industry for 30 years. I have worked at TSMC Taiwan, Intel AZ and Oregon, Texas Instruments, Samsung Korea, Micron Ut and Boise. I installed systems and maintained system. This is absolutely the safest industry in the world to work in. This video is click bait.
@@记住天安门广场 your word against his. That's why you present facts and statistics, not anecdotes. So bringing this topic up makes sense. However, I think the US has become too sensitive in themselves and can't push the boundaries like it once had. I mean, their carrier planes used to be owned by the Japanese Navy until they learned their weaknesses and made better planes. I don't think we should pretend there are no safety challenges in this industry, but we have to live and accept it, and improve it. China did not perfect lithium refinement overnight. It took a decade of environmental destruction, employee wage sacrifices, and market manipulation to get there.
@@triadwarfare I would encourage you to find anyone that works in the fabs in this industry and talk to them. I think you will find i speak the simple truth. No statistics required.
Learn some Chinese, there will be a lot of Taiwanese people running around the fab. English is not spoken much in Taiwan but the younger generation is better. I really like Taiwanese people , i think they are vey respectful. They wont be used to American culture so be patient and kind. I am very excited to see TSMC coming to the US. Taiwan is a very beautiful country with beautiful people. America must stand strong with Taiwan against the Chinese Communist Party which wants to invade Taiwan. You will find security is extremely tight in these facilities. It has nothing to do with America it is how they protect their intellectual property. Very common in Korea , Taiwan and Japan.
Good information and nice to hear that chip productions facilities are getting cleaner and recycling. Keep a eye on these guys. Better to pay a bit more and get it right for our health.
I've said from the beginning decades ago, it's not just wages. chemical controls are expensive. Disposal is expensive. In the Asian areas these chemicals are poured into rivers
@@deezeed2817 Lol commies are even worse. The Soviets did their dirty work in their satellite states. Hence the Ukranians got to deal with the fallout from Chernobyl.
We have had a number of people get throat cancer at my company. Always people who've worked there for decades. Always throat cancer. The occasional lungful of HF vapour or repeated whiffs of Boron Tribromide probably don't help. And while chemicals like Butyl Acetate are relatively non-toxic, breathing in the vapours for hours at a time probably doesn't help. With regards to sulphuric though, we only ever use it inside sealed, extracted machines and only when mixed with Hydrogen Peroxide to make piranha to clean the wafers. We never come into contact with the sulphuric and we use such a high concentration that it's viscous like treacle and there's no real vapours.
What was butyl acetate being used for? I think it was also being used as a solvent for binders used to suspend fluorescent lamp phosphors prior to coating and baking in the lehr.
@@gregorymalchuk272 not sure. I work in thermal diffusion and it's used in the photolithography department. I deal in physics and that's chemistry 🤣 I think it was used a solvent but I believe we've changed processes now and use something else but like I said, not my department.
It is interesting that pretty much everything revolving around semiconductors has become so incredibly toxic to humanity. And I say that as a long time computer hobbyist. Besides the physical environment toxicity we have a greatly elevated noise floor that is driving people insane (social media et al). We have a wildly out of control government spying paradigm on their own respective citizens. We have stock markets that a normal consumer has no chance in due to high speed trading. I don't think we have to throw the baby out with the bath water but it is abundantly obvious that we (humanity) has completely lost control of the usage of semiconductors as a benefit to mankind. And then there is the looming threat of AI we have heard so much about. Mankind has very big problems, we need help to get this under control before it gets any worse...
agreed completely. i'm also big into the computer field in every conceivable way, and was raised by the internet pretty much entirely. but it's literally killing all of us slowly. it's horrible. the further you dig the darker it gets i'm not going to start being all doom and gloom. but once you start reading about how these corporations have infiltrated (or completely overtaken) sovereign governments it really makes you worry
@@Retrofire-47 Corporations can only exist because of government. Governments are the worst; basically, corporations and government are the same thing.
You should investigate the radiation effects from ion implantation process as well. There is a history of it, mostly in the 80's. I remember working in the photolighography department where the Material Saftey Data Sheets said the solvents caused testicular atrophy.
Were people sticking their hands in the ion implanters with the particle accelerator still running? Or was there enough scattering to affect people nearby,?
In other words: Electronics are cheap for consumers, profitable for companies, and unbearable for the environment. What happens with the checmicals after disposal? Thank you for those bits, I really appreciate being informed about this industry that is otherwise such a walled garden. It saddens me as a software engineer not knowing much about these processes before me and then finding out long after the fact. :(
One of the biggest compamy in this field （ called ASE Group ）in Taiwan just threw all the used chemicals to the sea ( without proper cleaning process ) to save costs . How about that ? Oh, it was just an accident made by LOW-level employees , that's what they said.
I was offered a job in one of these places. Pay was really good. A friend that already worked there told me a lot of people got cancer that worked there for a long time. Its important work but I'm glad I didn't do it. I don't want to harm my health like that. At the same time, we need semiconductors. The industry is super important, and if I'm not mistaken, is one of the largest types of industries in the world too. How to balance human health with economic necessity?
"Mahayantra Pravartnam" - a caution in ancient Vedic scriptures warns about the consequences of excessive use of high technology (Maha = great/high, Yantra = machine/technology, Pravartnam = turning/rolling/running) - which they metaphorically said would anger the 5 element (pollute - Earth, Water, Air, Sky & Fire). And since all beings were made from those 5 elements they thought, the corruption would also inevitably show up in the composition of all derivative beings.
Given the need for wafer and chip production to be free of particles and the “wrong” substances (they call it a clean room for a reason), worker exposure to toxins should be relatively low (except maybe those who clean up after accidents). Having participated in cleaning up literally thousands of chemical spills, including at fabs, most mainstream fab workers have very low exposures. My credentials? PhD in Env Sci & Eng, MS in Env Chemistry, BS in Biology…and decades of experience.
that was my feeling as well, from what I've read most of the newer processes just use ultra pure water exactly because the process is so sensitive to anything. He's not wrong that its an extremely closed up industry, but that's also how nearly every industry that uses chemicals works
@@BasedAchaemenid My work was explicitly to clean up spills in the environment, for whom ever hired us. One very problematic one was caused by a “recycler” who took waste solvent from the electronics industry and dumped it into a dry well. About 2,000 gallons.
I'm still working in implant for more than 20 yrs. So numerous fab evacuation alarm experiences we have encountered. Imagine a dummy wafer can emit outgassing residues that can trigger fab alarm if those dummy wafers are not replaced in a recommended period of time.
The irony here is similar processes are used to produce photovoltaic panels. I'm a little disappointed your video didn't cover this as this is the dirty secret behind solar.
Although the toxic chemical dumping in the industry is a serious issue, the industry is safer to work in. In terms of cancer, the most likely cause is the schedule semiconductor works are expected to work. Shift work is a known carcinogen.
@@rixille The pyramids didn't cure cancer. Our incredible microelectronic technology allows faster screening of drugs and analysis of protein folding to treat and prevent cancer. We are living in an infinitely better world, even with semiconductor fab superfund sites.
Thank you for talking about this topic! I work as a (Trainee-)Technician on Etching-Tools - safety is always number one first, but i have already heard of lots of horrorstories. Your content is so enlightening and shows me the bigger picture of the industry i am working in.
I spent 16 years in a US semiconductor fab as electronic maint tech. 1 1/2 years in military group Eutectic gold/silicon die attach and aluminum wedge wire bonding bonding. 8 years in commercial back end assembly, epoxy die attach, gold wire wire bonding, saw, mount and wafer back grinc before my kast 6 years were spent in R&D dry etch. Our waste controls were very good and clean hazardous chems (very rare) we had supplied air and full mask. Our used gases and etch by products from dry etch we run through natural gas burn box to creste an inert waste. Sludge from saws and back grind were processed in aTer treatment plant and sludge was dewatered before disposal. Overall a great experience to work in. But short dighted management removed real tool maint from company techs and handed it to vendors signaling a tome to move on. Just completing 16years in oilfield electronic maint this year in bakken
Oh wow, this was my literal backyard. My family lived upstream of the contamination sites at fairchild and IBM. Many of my friends from school had older siblings born in 84-85 who had severe birth defects and/or their mothers had miscarriages. One thing is we're literally in a valley and all that solvent was in the air too, and i don't think anybody has thoroughly contemplated that aspect.
just found site, and joined. worked in some plants, and son at microchip with his mom etc in Chandler. i worked NELCO made large chip,circuict boards, various dangerios jobs.
Brilliant video! Although not so much into the electronics field myself, I am generally concerned about the ways governments are sanctioning corporations to continue polluting the environment with toxic chemicals and waste products that are damaging ecosystems and causing massive imbalances. We may be one of the last of the few generations to enjoy this planet before we come to a flash point of some sort.
Great video! In my job I am searching for new locations for microelectronics plants. One of the things I need to take in to account is also the risk of accidents. For example if a plant catches on fire the burning of the toxic chemicals may affect nearby neighborhoods very fast.
I worked at INTEL, Aloha, Oregon for a while. I left because the air was very bad, and the people that worked there acted really Obsessive Compulsive. Today, 20 years later I have COPD.
I work somewhere related to both fab and sub fab, go all over campus. When inspecting some rooms and chases I've developed short hand for them on my documentation. 'sweet room' for the solvents pmea rooms, avoid (acid) room, etc. The worst are the arsenic areas. Those guys flaunt their own safety protocols ALL THE TIME. plus clean room protocol. It's a balancing act between safety and the ignorant laziness of workers and social climbers. Kind of sad
The names alone are making me vomit. I'm very well acquainted to labs that handle harmful bacteria and viruses (Biosafety labs). I feel like even Biosafety level 3 facilities might be at least 100 times safer than the sweet room.
Cancer draws a lot of attention. But organic chemicals used in the process can cause a plethora of problem like hormonal imbalance, lung damage leading to asthma and related problems, digestive problem, reproductive health issues and many others. The problem with ordinary people is that it's hard to make them realize that the world is barely a black and white place, it has thousands of colors and billions of shades.
The ground water contamination is very concerning. That has not driven home buyers away. 12:47 , relative to the super fund clean up sites, the housing prices are mostly driven up by proximity to the Apple campuses. And driven down by the proximity to the train tracks. except for Alviso (top middle dot) every other location the very low end single family home price for 2021 is $1.4 million.
That's ridiculous.. How many of those properties are vacant I wonder? Even if someone was wealthy enough to live in those homes, why would they do that to themselves?
Thanks,,,, spend hours and hours learning from all your videos,,, man sit and talk in person with you has to be fantastic,, thanks for the Knowledge and your time,,, and eye opening
You should take a look at the chemicals used in ALD (atomic layer deposition), for example diethylzinc, MeCpPtMe3, or (rarely used for all i know) dimethylcadmium, this is used for thin film deposition, normally you would use it for transistor gates (though not with these materials) there are of course many other uses and is used in other ways in fabs, yet im still quite new in the area, so i don't know that much
Really like your vedios! Very great! The style is like The Economist's. The part that fresh my eye is that your context is very predictive and foresighted! Please keep going!
Ion Implantation should be added to the explanation of basic processing. The doping of silicon is part of how transistors are made. Also the materials used in Ion Implantation are a part of this conversation. Arsenic, Phosphorous, Boron to name a few. Hope your day is good. I enjoy your videos. ^^
If they are still using high-pressure gases, there will be a high risk of gas leaks due to corrosion and chokage. Nowadays , we are using SDS bottles to be lesser risk for leaks. We experienced gas explosion using high-pressure bottles 20 years back. My ex colleague was changing Arsine bottle and mistakenly cracked the pigtail line of a phosphine bottle without closing the stem valve. Fab evacuation and thorough safety investigation follows.
I was a thin films / vacuum repair tech in part because I knew what Photolithography chemicals had... The operators & mechanics that handled them day in day out did not though. It was maddening. Worst I ever saw was heated solvent vapors that ate your subcutaneous fat, xylene, etc, but the benzenes & compounds in photoresist are absolutely evil.
@@seng8174 I'm sure that depends on the facility. Mine was 3 floors & the laminar flow pulled about 2 meters between production & underbelly/facilities. Equally they had most conduit/piping done separate of the subfacility in a ~.4-.6 meter tall subfloor. It would be different in different facilities, but repairing conduits for fluids was thin, quickly replaceable copper/etc conduit. It changed every 6 months, was contracted out for liability, & could fail & scare the shit out of everyone. Whereas the "facilities" was mostly huge main lines that never changed & had little risk.
@@seng8174 In short: What I did, process engineers & equipment engineers who actually installed the gear bore the most risk of employees employed on site. Often times the equipment manufacturers had lifelong contracted "technicians" on site for your company & you did not install their more complicated tech so as to get the full value of your service contract.
Regulations exist only on paper. Enforcement is a sick joke. I have some understanding of thermal power, iron, paper, cement, and enforcement is on paper most days
It's always good to take a step back from occupational hazards and consider that people will happily expose themselves to cigarettes, car exhausts, alcohol, fried foods, high-fat diets, low amounts fruit/vegetables, obesity, and a sedentary life style. I say this not to demean, but to place it into perspective.
the things you list are mostly chosen freely. with occupational hazard management chooses for you - to deliver more profit there is a fundamental difference.
@@peter4526 the point was that in certain circumstances, occupational safety is better than personal safety. Any further improvements to occupational safety would then likely have no effect as it's overshadowed by other risk factors
@@peter4526 completely bullshit. these things are rarely a choice. my entire family histories' medical paradigm is evidence to that end. when you drive your car you are likely being exposed to more things than you can imagine. even when you walk across the street. or enter an ordinary residential house in suburban Ohio. it does not matter. this issue is omnipresent and we are part of the experiment
@@Retrofire-47 sure. never go for the guys that completely control the 8h or more of your live. always go for the other things. mich easier! no change. all good! YEAH! happyhappy
@@redtails the point was that any further improvement to occupational safety is not your choice but the choice of the people that steal money, time and life from you. and would never, ever let their bodies or the bodies of their families and loved ones be exposed to the stuff you/I/we need to take for granted. and galaxy beware workers would want to have a voice in that!
Worked in semi-conductor for 8 years, i felt healthier after i left the industry. 4 years later, i joined back, absorbing the chemical in the air inside the cleanroom. T-T
The fabs left silicon valley because bay area is way too expensive. It has nothing to do with hazardous chemicals in use. Intel's major R&D fab is in Portland and they still have a fab in the bay area. Most of the people who work in the fab have almost no exposure to chemicals since the entire processing is done internally in automated tools. I don't know about your background, but have you really ever been to a real semiconductor fab off late? The real dangers lie in academic fabs and not the big fab houses. Tool manufacturers absolutely know about all expected byproducts of significant concentration and concern and know how to handle the outgoing chemicals. It is not wild west out there.
Sulfuric acid is pretty harmless tho as an industrial pollutant…because it’s not very volatile. Boiling point is over 300C iirc. So you really need to plunge your face into it to come in contact with substantial quantities. And once diluted or neutralized, it’s basically harmless.
Welp I have a HDD reader head fab that is 2 blocks from my house. They have been shutdown for years now. My friend worked there and would talk about one of the etchant tanks leaking. Now I am actually wondering if this has any correlation to people in my area having crazy cancers and failed pregnancies.
The volume on your videos is too low. On all other TH-cam videos, I keep my volume slider at about the 1/4 spot. With yours, I have to move it all the way to the top and the volume is still a bit too low.
I've worked in semiconductor fabs all over the US and Asia for the last 12 years. Handling of any hazardous materials is performed under strict scrutiny and there are sensors in work areas to detect any unexpected releases. You're almost certainly ingesting more dangerous chemicals into your by body eating from plastic food packaging and inhaling the exhaust from your car than fab workers are exposed to on the job.
How do you know? Is there even any research on how much of which chemical workers like you are being exposed to? Remember, you spend ~60-80hr/week in presence of these chemicals. No one spend that much time smelling car exhaust* or food packages. *People living in super polluted cities like Delhi or Dhaka might have similar exposure to car exhaust.
Our company is very strict in handling, usage, storage in recycling chemicals and gases. Singapore government is very strict in implementing environmental laws of the land.
I have worked 8 years in ASML. I am in perfect health and it was a great experience. I'm not saying that semiconductor manufacturers could generate some kind of cancer, but I doubt that ASML. Great video!
It used to be much worse. IBM made many advancements. The chemicals are largely isolated from the workers in the aisles. I do worry sometimes, though, working in the industry. Remember hand dipping wafers? 😬 Also, our fab is one of the only in the world which actually still has ashtrays in fab hallways. 😄
Wow, it’s almost as if the technology that we are dedicating the world to is not so good after all. This is a forewarning to our future but it seems that this was determined from the start to happen.
@@leanderbarreto6523 That can be arranged. 1. They should have taken census of population each year 2. They should have noted people dying due to cancer during the period So where is the result?
@@hahahuhu9828 There is so much more you can not account for. Let's assume that you do this study and it is found out that the cancer rate before TSMC was lower. What is the conclusion? That TSMC causes cancer? There so many more possible factors.
It's not just semiconductor fab. I can get boards fabbed in China or the US, and the differential in cost is about a factor of twenty. The plants are more or less the same and the direct labour costs are minimal: the main difference is disposal of waste. The US plant spends a lot of money for proper waste disposal, the Chinese plant pours used etchant into a sump in the basement.
If you think disposing waste is much more expensive than creating billions of semiconductors size 1/1000 of your hair that must 100% stable work then I feel sorry for you.
Motorola manufactured solid state devices in their Phoenix, AZ plant. I am unaware of how it happened but they got their tits in a wringer with the EPA by disposing these chemicals in 55 gallon drums and burying them on their property. It has cost them millions for the clean up and I believe this site is still highly contaminated. I worked for Motorola for thirteen years, however as a field tech and field tech rep in RI and PA. Motorola was a good company to work for but they had some anuses in their management system. I left Motorola to pursue a career in aviation.
I guess waste disposal is the most rudimentary thing they can do. Then we talk about exposure thru breathing or skin contact and whether the workers' PPE are enough to prevent such exposures.
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Watch more videos like this one on the Global Semiconductor Issues playlist: th-cam.com/play/PLKtxx9TnH76QEYXdJx6KyycNGHePJQwWW.html
Lemme share with you just one personal statistics:
I was working in Silicon Valley back in the early 1980's (and later in other places around the world, but with the chip fabrication industry) and over the years I get to know a lot of people who worked inside the fab facilities.
Almost 40 years of experience, those who I (used to) know who worked inside the fab, 90% either have died, or are suffering from all kinds of illnesses.
Of those who do not work inside the fab buildings, at least 60% are still alive.
Chip fabrication process costs lives.
Eh i thought you knew. We are going extinct. Go learn about abrupt climate change!
When I first, and recently started listening to your channel, I was impressed enough to subscribe: I judged your research was thorough. However with this video, and your reporting on sulphuric acid, and cancer... clearly you are not a chemist, or an oncologist, and also clearly you are talking through your hat. Stick to things you know... not to things you think you know... but, clearly don't.
@@willthecat3861 A whole array of chemical used in semiconductor manufacturing can and should be classified as *"Superfund Hazardous Waste"*
They include :
Solvents such as trichloroethylene and denatured ethanol;
Photoresist chemicals such as phenol formaldehyde, ethylene glycol ethers and 2-Methoxyethanol.
There are just too many to be listed here.
@@willthecat3861 What's more important is that *American Chipmakers Had a Toxic Problem. Then They Outsourced It To Asia*
1974, was an associate engineer (newly engineer graduate) at Raytheon Semiconductor, acids and solvents were dumped into the same drains which emptied into the bay. One time experienced a violent reaction when the previous person didn’t flush the drain with water and then aqua regia was poured into the same drain. This was the standard practice, didn’t know better. Located on Ellis Street in Mt. View just down the street from Fairchild. Remembered the car windshield got pitted after a while, probably from the HF fumes. They were the “cowboy days” of semiconductor.
@@BasedAchaemenid retired from semiconductor manufacturing engineer in 2018, it was a fun ride.
Everybody used to do it everywhere. Lots of labs, used only lead pipes in the drains: no copper. What's 250 ml of aqua regia into the sanitary sewer?: some pissed off e. coli. What's 250 ml of aqua regia into the storm sewer?: some very very very dilute aqua regia. The problem is when everybody does it; and, everybody does it a lot. Phosphates from laundry detergents caused a lot more problems in water courses than some random drops of aqua regia. And anyways, no one working in a lab dumps random chemicals down the drain anymore. Fabs in China... fabs anywhere a big problem? ... not really... millions of random citizens dumping everything from turtles to tetracycline down the pooper: ya.
The ghosts of silicon valley are made evident when one looks at a map of superfund sites in the area. The aqua regia has probably all decomposed by now, but the more complex solvents are deep in the ground. To be fair a lot of it was also generated at Moffett.
I commend you for a very ambitous review. I am a research chemist who worked in semiconductor process development in the 1980's in the US. Chemists probably have a different view of hazards than what you might find on Google. You mentioned sulfuric acid, because it pops out in terms of volume used. Believe me, chemists don't worry about sulfuric acid. Semiconductior production might use truly horrific chemicals, such as HF. asenic, antimony, or phosgine, albeit in tiny amounts. These compounds are probably thousands or times more toxic but get under reported since EPA reporting in too focused on pounds released.
So, how should the risks be assessed by using studies and published reports? That's a tough one.
Interesting take. HF is truly frightening. Just a whiff can eat up your insides. It was used to make refrigerants where I worked.
I bet you’ve got some cool stories. I am purely a layman, but find chemistry fascinating. I love Derek Lowe’s ‘Things I Won’t Work With’ articles and I have a feeling the semiconductor industry works with at least a few chemicals worthy of inclusion to such a list.
As a chemist college I agree, chemists do not worry much about sulfuric acid. It is easy to control in a laboratory setting. And yes, the EPA and other agencies focus too much on production volumes or inconclusive studies to ban great chemicals like the famous DDT that saved maybe millions of lives in poor nations, leaving them without alternatives.
Meanwhile, really nasty chemical working conditions still exist here in the US, especially in republican states like South Carolina. These states are actually miniversions of China or Mexico, at best. I come from Mexico and have seen at least one worse factory here in SC. Unfortunately, regulations have been a disappointing solution sometimes.
DDT and other useful chemicals like PCBs got banned, maybe more due to being good targets for lawsuits. Whole industries were either destroyed or sent overseas, like semiconductors. Meanwhile, other well proven toxic chemicals like lead, is still present in several pipes all over the USA. Local states are not very worried about it. Vermont, for instance, is planning to upgrade internet connection, if I recall well.
Fortunately. Asianometry well shows the critical benefits of regulation in California back in the 60's and 70's (min 11:00), truly protecting the population from poisons dumped in the sewage by industries.
HF, EDP, Arsine gas. Scary stuff
@@Nowhere-from the main reason why DDT was banned is not the human health factors but the damage it could and did do to the environment by doing its intended job, and because it accumulated more and more the higher up the food chain it got.
Modern insecticides degrade faster after use, accumulate less rapidly when going up the food chain, and ideally don't just nuke all insects they come in contact with but instead just target some specific group of insects you need gone.
Toxicity is pretty much why the entire US chemical industry moved to China...and BTW, thanks for bringing up this aspect of the electronics industry. People' don't realize what a gigantic source of environmental impact our fancy gadgets have!
Like cobalt in Congo
some moved to texas.
The electronics industry's legacy of pollution predates the age of semiconductors... back when PCB's (Polychorinated Biphenols, not printed circuit boards) were used in transistors and capacitors. They were dumped into open freshwater supplies - including drinking water sources - as well as cooling water resevoirs and also contaminated ground water. Although not as heart-wrenching as miscarriage and birth defect, the impacted regions have something of a reputation as breast-cancer hot spots, although a statistically robust causation link has never been established. Bottom line: Rome had it's lead pipes and goblets. Modern digital societies have our electronic gadgets.
Indeed, like when GE was dumping PCB's into the Hudson river.
If things are in such a total shambles that your workers are somehow inhaling H2SO4 mist, your fab has way, WAY, *WAYYYYYY* bigger and more immediate problems to worry about than potential increased rates of cancer in decades to come; like, ya know, making sure the walls and ceilings don't crumble to pieces and collapse. It's just not an issue in chip fabs. The main concerns in semi manufacturing should be acute risks of wildly toxic gasses (arsine, phosphine, hydrogen selenide, etc.), which are relatively easily managed with appropriate engineering measures for supply gas sources, and chronic risks of heavy metal, volatile organic solvent, and halogenated persistent organic pollutant wastes in both gas and water plant effluent. With modern wastewater and waste gas treatment technologies all of these contaminants can be reduced to practically zero, it's just a question of how clean the company wants to go and how much the company wants to pay for.
Wow finally someone who knows what they are talking about. Very rare on the tube.
Sulfuric acid is the least of anybody's worries in a semiconductor fab. What this does not highlight quite enough is the personnel who work directly on equipment in a fab. At least half of the personnel inside a fab work directly on equipment which processes wafers (excluding workers who support fab supporting equipment like gas/chemical supply, vacuum pumps, abatement systems, which would push the % well above half, depending on whether the fab uses an AMHS or AGS) who, despite safety measures, are regularly directly exposed to byproducts during work. The issue is not a large concentration of noxious or carcinogenic compounds or acids in ambient fab air, as was supposed and was ridiculed... In my experience, aside from semiconductor toxic solid waste management, exposure of workers to compounds (concentrations above or below OSHA standards) regularly is still a substantial risk.
For example, plasma etch chamber maintenance requires periodic mechanical cleaning\ scrubbing of fluorides and polymers from the vacuum chamber walls and interior components. The scrubbing can provide sufficient heat to decompose fluorinated polymers if it is not kept cool enough, which presents the opportunity to form HF or Hydrofluoric Acid vapor in your face if there is sufficient moisture on your scrubbing pad or enough humidity in the air.
Many stringent engineered solutions, standards and procedures are indeed implemented in these processes, but those are so far from perfect in the little understood, cost sensitive world of plasma cocktails and other semiconductor manufacturing processes. It is an incredibly toxic and polluting industry... Most people outside the industry have nooooooooo idea.
Nothing works like that, Mr. Muonuim. The factory wall at best might just get discolored in 2-3 decades. Nothing is gonna crumble down like Hollywood movie. Rather, harm comes slowly but permanently - like you might suddenly hear one colleague working in a separate facility recently had an abortion, an older colleague died of cancer soon after retirement, etc.
@@tanner3801 Thanks for detailed comment. Please make this a comment under the main video.
@@tanner3801 ...and that is why everybody in the industry gets safety training at least once a year. If you work maintenance or chemicals you get additional job specific training. I do automation (never touched anything more dangerous than Isopropanol) and got this year's training about a month ago.
Also, at least where I come from (Europe), government regulations are so strict that the grilled sausage I eat on my way home is much more carcinogenic than anything I was likely exposed to during afull day in the clean room. Yes, I'm more worried about amides than HF - I eat the amides without safety, the HF is locked away and I got training on what to do if it gets out of the pipe.
When I came to San Jose in 1987, there was a bit of a scandal that got printed up in the Mercury news. Seems a tester for the city had found a lot of toxic materials in the sewer, heavy metals and chemicals. That turns out to be easy to track. They just keep taking samples from the sewer upstream until they find where the materials no longer exist, then they have found the outlet of the chemicals. At that time, Intel was running a fab, and they were cited. However, there were others on the list. As the video says, it was a shock to many here who believed that the silicon fabs were "clean" industries.
I lived in Taoyuan for about seven years and it was surprising just how many of my friends had family or their friends who had died of some kind of cancer, quite often stomach cancer, or another.
Sulfuric acid gives you cancer due to damage. Because it is so damaging you will feel it if you are exposed. It is the least of my concerns. I’m much more concerned about organics in photoresist and byproducts of plasma etching.
Mr. John's lack of scientific understanding sometimes causes problems like this.
HF is especially scary, a drop of it can permeate your skin and eat through the calcium ions in your nerves, you'd feel nothing much for the first few days
Sulfur by itself is likely to be well studied, because it is one of the most damaging (to humans) car exhaust gases.
I worked in a fab almost 40 years ago. I was very worried about this. The main problem I saw was solvents. They used acetone and a lot of other solvents to clean and to suspend photoresist etc. I only stayed on that job for less than a year, but I've always felt it was a liability. They tell you everything is so clean - but exactly - with respect to the wafers.
I used to be in an emergency response team, if people knew what chemicals are being stored they’d live as far away as possible from these factories
And never drive or walk by them
The joke when I was still in college was that the more toxic and dangerous a chemical was the better and more effective it was in semiconductor manufacturing. Being from the Bay Area, I know for a fact that there is a plaza across from Cupertino HS that they purposely kept empty for decades for fear of the contamination from the facilities that used to sit on top of it. Only fairly recently did they allow that land to be developed. There is now a Target and several restaurants there.
Yes that's true. Anything that's not toxic doesn't work as good.
So they turned it from an empty plot into a wasteland?
Oh dang, is that the strip mall north of Cupertino HS, across Steven's Creek Blvd? I go there all the time
What I am going to share is REAL.
I once had a supplier who had to shut down the fab because the safety alarm system malfunction and did not detect toxicity leak in the air. The fab was eventually vacated because the stainless steel furniture in the clean room started to turn green from the corrosion.
Beat that !!!
High hydrogen bromide concentration in the fab air?
@@tanner3801 I think it was chlorine.
Having worked in Biotech, I assure you that such, though uncommon, but not rare at all.
@@BasedAchaemenid Dosent matter when somebody can shut it off because it’s an “annoyance”.
@John Doe bring back some gangho and cowboy memories of my days in a fab :-D lucky nothing bad happened despite having the stupidity of a young man.
MOS Technology's Pennsylvania plant (later bought by Commodore, and later sold) was closed in 2000 and was already a Superfund Site by the late 1980s.
I have been in the industry in various fabs for 30 years, and although I agree with some of your points I would indicate that I have not seen any incentive for factories to cut corners during build (in US). That is to say, that the EHS activities are in place and discussed during fab build and maintenance activities and whether a factory would do more, would need to be tied to a cost trade off. Good video.
Ahh yes the classic how cheap can we murder the locals by pollution accounting exercise!
I have been working in this industry for 30 years. I have worked at TSMC Taiwan, Intel AZ and Oregon, Texas Instruments, Samsung Korea, Micron Ut and Boise. I installed systems and maintained system. This is absolutely the safest industry in the world to work in. This video is click bait.
@@记住天安门广场 I agree Taiwan is a country and have met some impressive Taiwanese. Your resume is quite impressive. If I ever have questions about your industry can I call you?😀
@@记住天安门广场 you should tell that to the women in Samsung factory. After their health problems surfaced, Samsung pretty much just ignore them completely and let them die.
@@ericreed4535 I am just a simple observer working in the industry for many years. At one time it was unsafe in the beginning, today the industry is very safe. Almost to the point of being annoying.
I'd say the industry is probably trending towards safer processes, maybe not out of express concern for the workers, but because the newer processes require a lot more precision and are even more sensitive to impurities
We all like to hope. But if you look at the fab process summarized at @2:00, these chemical has to be washed out. Also, doesn't mind the nanometer, the chemicals are required as per production volume. The only hope is that the massive volume used might make recycling more economic than buying new batches. But that'll only cover some, relatively benign chemicals like H2SO4.
I guess someday you have to talk about Fairchild.
There are quite a few EPA Superfund sites in Silicon Valley where former semiconductor fabs were because back in the 70s people really didn't give a second thought to how all those chemicals were disposed.
Was a tech at Texas Instruments (TI) and they used a wide variety of chemicals to manufacture and and perfect the etching of their chips. It's just mind boggling to think how hazardous the environment is. The OEM Invested a large chunk of money for training new talents to ensure safety.
The more and more I learn about these industries, the better mr robot gets. Thanks for the explanation!
Some of the Google Buildings are built on the "Middlefield/Ellis/Whisman" Superfund Site, brought to us by NEC, Fairchild, and one other "clean" semiconductor company.
Superfund is where an environmental disaster evolves on such a scale that a US company, local state, and federal state all have to finance the cleanup isn't it?
I remember it being used a lot around the issue of radium-factories
I literally just applied to TSMC AZ
I have been working in this industry for 30 years. I have worked at TSMC Taiwan, Intel AZ and Oregon, Texas Instruments, Samsung Korea, Micron Ut and Boise. I installed systems and maintained system. This is absolutely the safest industry in the world to work in. This video is click bait.
@@记住天安门广场 ^^this seems a relevant comment
@@记住天安门广场 your word against his. That's why you present facts and statistics, not anecdotes. So bringing this topic up makes sense.
However, I think the US has become too sensitive in themselves and can't push the boundaries like it once had. I mean, their carrier planes used to be owned by the Japanese Navy until they learned their weaknesses and made better planes.
I don't think we should pretend there are no safety challenges in this industry, but we have to live and accept it, and improve it. China did not perfect lithium refinement overnight. It took a decade of environmental destruction, employee wage sacrifices, and market manipulation to get there.
@@triadwarfare I would encourage you to find anyone that works in the fabs in this industry and talk to them. I think you will find i speak the simple truth. No statistics required.
Learn some Chinese, there will be a lot of Taiwanese people running around the fab. English is not spoken much in Taiwan but the younger generation is better. I really like Taiwanese people , i think they are vey respectful. They wont be used to American culture so be patient and kind. I am very excited to see TSMC coming to the US. Taiwan is a very beautiful country with beautiful people. America must stand strong with Taiwan against the Chinese Communist Party which wants to invade Taiwan. You will find security is extremely tight in these facilities. It has nothing to do with America it is how they protect their intellectual property. Very common in Korea , Taiwan and Japan.
Good information and nice to hear that chip productions facilities are getting cleaner and recycling. Keep a eye on these guys. Better to pay a bit more and get it right for our health.
I like how the title doesn't go like the typical "Health and Safety", but skips to "Health and Cancer" directly lol.
I've said from the beginning decades ago, it's not just wages. chemical controls are expensive. Disposal is expensive. In the Asian areas these chemicals are poured into rivers
Capitalists always outsource their waste to other countries
@@deezeed2817 we will be transporting you asap
@@deezeed2817 Lol commies are even worse. The Soviets did their dirty work in their satellite states. Hence the Ukranians got to deal with the fallout from Chernobyl.
I’m always smarter if not at least better informed after watching your videos!
We have had a number of people get throat cancer at my company. Always people who've worked there for decades. Always throat cancer. The occasional lungful of HF vapour or repeated whiffs of Boron Tribromide probably don't help. And while chemicals like Butyl Acetate are relatively non-toxic, breathing in the vapours for hours at a time probably doesn't help.
With regards to sulphuric though, we only ever use it inside sealed, extracted machines and only when mixed with Hydrogen Peroxide to make piranha to clean the wafers. We never come into contact with the sulphuric and we use such a high concentration that it's viscous like treacle and there's no real vapours.
What was butyl acetate being used for? I think it was also being used as a solvent for binders used to suspend fluorescent lamp phosphors prior to coating and baking in the lehr.
@@gregorymalchuk272 not sure. I work in thermal diffusion and it's used in the photolithography department. I deal in physics and that's chemistry 🤣 I think it was used a solvent but I believe we've changed processes now and use something else but like I said, not my department.
It is interesting that pretty much everything revolving around semiconductors has become so incredibly toxic to humanity. And I say that as a long time computer hobbyist. Besides the physical environment toxicity we have a greatly elevated noise floor that is driving people insane (social media et al). We have a wildly out of control government spying paradigm on their own respective citizens. We have stock markets that a normal consumer has no chance in due to high speed trading.
I don't think we have to throw the baby out with the bath water but it is abundantly obvious that we (humanity) has completely lost control of the usage of semiconductors as a benefit to mankind. And then there is the looming threat of AI we have heard so much about.
Mankind has very big problems, we need help to get this under control before it gets any worse...
agreed completely. i'm also big into the computer field in every conceivable way, and was raised by the internet pretty much entirely. but it's literally killing all of us slowly. it's horrible. the further you dig the darker it gets
i'm not going to start being all doom and gloom. but once you start reading about how these corporations have infiltrated (or completely overtaken) sovereign governments it really makes you worry
@@Retrofire-47 Corporations can only exist because of government. Governments are the worst; basically, corporations and government are the same thing.
Thanks!
You should investigate the radiation effects from ion implantation process as well. There is a history of it, mostly in the 80's. I remember working in the photolighography department where the Material Saftey Data Sheets said the solvents caused testicular atrophy.
Were people sticking their hands in the ion implanters with the particle accelerator still running? Or was there enough scattering to affect people nearby,?
Was completely unaware to all of this. Thank you and I hope you shine a light on more content like this
In other words: Electronics are cheap for consumers, profitable for companies, and unbearable for the environment. What happens with the checmicals after disposal?
Thank you for those bits, I really appreciate being informed about this industry that is otherwise such a walled garden. It saddens me as a software engineer not knowing much about these processes before me and then finding out long after the fact. :(
One of the biggest compamy in this field （ called ASE Group ）in Taiwan just threw all the used chemicals to the sea ( without proper cleaning process ) to save costs . How about that ?
Oh, it was just an accident made by LOW-level employees , that's what they said.
exceptional case study.
I've found that this kind of phenomenon is everywhere, in every aspect of our lives now,
I was offered a job in one of these places. Pay was really good. A friend that already worked there told me a lot of people got cancer that worked there for a long time. Its important work but I'm glad I didn't do it. I don't want to harm my health like that. At the same time, we need semiconductors. The industry is super important, and if I'm not mistaken, is one of the largest types of industries in the world too. How to balance human health with economic necessity?
"Mahayantra Pravartnam" - a caution in ancient Vedic scriptures warns about the consequences of excessive use of high technology (Maha = great/high, Yantra = machine/technology, Pravartnam = turning/rolling/running) - which they metaphorically said would anger the 5 element (pollute - Earth, Water, Air, Sky & Fire).
And since all beings were made from those 5 elements they thought, the corruption would also inevitably show up in the composition of all derivative beings.
Given the need for wafer and chip production to be free of particles and the “wrong” substances (they call it a clean room for a reason), worker exposure to toxins should be relatively low (except maybe those who clean up after accidents). Having participated in cleaning up literally thousands of chemical spills, including at fabs, most mainstream fab workers have very low exposures. My credentials? PhD in Env Sci & Eng, MS in Env Chemistry, BS in Biology…and decades of experience.
that was my feeling as well, from what I've read most of the newer processes just use ultra pure water exactly because the process is so sensitive to anything. He's not wrong that its an extremely closed up industry, but that's also how nearly every industry that uses chemicals works
@@BasedAchaemenid My work was explicitly to clean up spills in the environment, for whom ever hired us. One very problematic one was caused by a “recycler” who took waste solvent from the electronics industry and dumped it into a dry well. About 2,000 gallons.
@@BasedAchaemenid John did a recent episode about Japan’s history w semiconductors which may have enough info to figure that out.
I'm still working in implant for more than 20 yrs. So numerous fab evacuation alarm experiences we have encountered. Imagine a dummy wafer can emit outgassing residues that can trigger fab alarm if those dummy wafers are not replaced in a recommended period of time.
The irony here is similar processes are used to produce photovoltaic panels. I'm a little disappointed your video didn't cover this as this is the dirty secret behind solar.
Good job on a tough topic.
No wonder INTEL expanded their facilities in Malaysia, Malaysia should investigate those dumping chemicals waste in Malaysia...
Thank you for let us know about this situation around the Semiconductor facilities
So glad i found this channel
Great video and there is a lot more to be done. It's sad that there isn't so much focus on it.
Although the toxic chemical dumping in the industry is a serious issue, the industry is safer to work in. In terms of cancer, the most likely cause is the schedule semiconductor works are expected to work. Shift work is a known carcinogen.
That was a very edifying and thoughtful exposition. Nice altruistic endeavor.
big boy words 😏
It just shows there really isn't any commodity that doesn't cause harm to someone or to the environment
Big words and you chose to use the word "Nice"
@@brodiering literally 😭😭
Thanks for bringing this important topic, Mr. John. Like the Pyramid built by the Pharaohs, our modern wonders too are built in expense of us.
At least the ancient pyramids don't leak toxic chemicals into the fresh water supply over time.
@@rixille The pyramids didn't cure cancer. Our incredible microelectronic technology allows faster screening of drugs and analysis of protein folding to treat and prevent cancer. We are living in an infinitely better world, even with semiconductor fab superfund sites.
Thank you for talking about this topic!
I work as a (Trainee-)Technician on Etching-Tools - safety is always number one first, but i have already heard of lots of horrorstories.
Your content is so enlightening and shows me the bigger picture of the industry i am working in.
I spent 16 years in a US semiconductor fab as electronic maint tech.
1 1/2 years in military group
Eutectic gold/silicon die attach and aluminum wedge wire bonding bonding. 8 years in commercial back end assembly, epoxy die attach, gold wire wire bonding, saw, mount and wafer back grinc before my kast 6 years were spent in R&D dry etch. Our waste controls were very good and clean hazardous chems (very rare) we had supplied air and full mask.
Our used gases and etch by products from dry etch we run through natural gas burn box to creste an inert waste. Sludge from saws and back grind were processed in aTer treatment plant and sludge was dewatered before disposal. Overall a great experience to work in. But short dighted management removed real tool maint from company techs and handed it to vendors signaling a tome to move on. Just completing 16years in oilfield electronic maint this year in bakken
Oh wow, this was my literal backyard. My family lived upstream of the contamination sites at fairchild and IBM. Many of my friends from school had older siblings born in 84-85 who had severe birth defects and/or their mothers had miscarriages.
One thing is we're literally in a valley and all that solvent was in the air too, and i don't think anybody has thoroughly contemplated that aspect.
just found site, and joined. worked in some plants, and son at microchip with his mom etc in Chandler. i worked NELCO made large chip,circuict boards, various dangerios jobs.
Brilliant video! Although not so much into the electronics field myself, I am generally concerned about the ways governments are sanctioning corporations to continue polluting the environment with toxic chemicals and waste products that are damaging ecosystems and causing massive imbalances. We may be one of the last of the few generations to enjoy this planet before we come to a flash point of some sort.
Great video! In my job I am searching for new locations for microelectronics plants. One of the things I need to take in to account is also the risk of accidents. For example if a plant catches on fire the burning of the toxic chemicals may affect nearby neighborhoods very fast.
Pro tip; don't live near those plants
brilliant topic & presentation, as always enlightening... thanks.
I worked at INTEL, Aloha, Oregon for a while. I left because the air was very bad, and the people that worked there acted really Obsessive Compulsive. Today, 20 years later I have COPD.
What's COPD fam?
@@himansh4812 clogged up lungs
@@himansh4812 , Chronic Obstructive Pulmonary Disease.
I work somewhere related to both fab and sub fab, go all over campus.
When inspecting some rooms and chases I've developed short hand for them on my documentation.
'sweet room' for the solvents pmea rooms, avoid (acid) room, etc.
The worst are the arsenic areas. Those guys flaunt their own safety protocols ALL THE TIME. plus clean room protocol.
It's a balancing act between safety and the ignorant laziness of workers and social climbers. Kind of sad
The names alone are making me vomit. I'm very well acquainted to labs that handle harmful bacteria and viruses (Biosafety labs). I feel like even Biosafety level 3 facilities might be at least 100 times safer than the sweet room.
If that were true then I would be very curious on the rate of cancer in Taiwan vs America
Cancer draws a lot of attention. But organic chemicals used in the process can cause a plethora of problem like hormonal imbalance, lung damage leading to asthma and related problems, digestive problem, reproductive health issues and many others. The problem with ordinary people is that it's hard to make them realize that the world is barely a black and white place, it has thousands of colors and billions of shades.
Lots of workers in fabs die in horrific ways, but are ignored due to signing NDA’s.
The ground water contamination is very concerning. That has not driven home buyers away. 12:47 , relative to the super fund clean up sites, the housing prices are mostly driven up by proximity to the Apple campuses. And driven down by the proximity to the train tracks. except for Alviso (top middle dot) every other location the very low end single family home price for 2021 is $1.4 million.
That's ridiculous.. How many of those properties are vacant I wonder? Even if someone was wealthy enough to live in those homes, why would they do that to themselves?
Thanks,,,, spend hours and hours learning from all your videos,,, man sit and talk in person with you has to be fantastic,, thanks for the Knowledge and your time,,, and eye opening
You should take a look at the chemicals used in ALD (atomic layer deposition), for example diethylzinc, MeCpPtMe3, or (rarely used for all i know) dimethylcadmium, this is used for thin film deposition, normally you would use it for transistor gates (though not with these materials)
there are of course many other uses and is used in other ways in fabs, yet im still quite new in the area, so i don't know that much
I enjoy the new way you carry your voice a lot more. You find great images
Lowkey my favorite channel
The genie is out of the lamp and we won't and can't put it back.
Really like your vedios! Very great! The style is like The Economist's. The part that fresh my eye is that your context is very predictive and foresighted! Please keep going!
Ion Implantation should be added to the explanation of basic processing. The doping of silicon is part of how transistors are made. Also the materials used in Ion Implantation are a part of this conversation. Arsenic, Phosphorous, Boron to name a few. Hope your day is good. I enjoy your videos. ^^
If they are still using high-pressure gases, there will be a high risk of gas leaks due to corrosion and chokage. Nowadays , we are using SDS bottles to be lesser risk for leaks.
We experienced gas explosion using high-pressure bottles 20 years back. My ex colleague was changing Arsine bottle and mistakenly cracked the pigtail line of a phosphine bottle without closing the stem valve. Fab evacuation and thorough safety investigation follows.
@@ntabile Was your colleague held for medical observation after the arsine exposure.
@@gregorymalchuk272 We have a periodic Arsenic level, so far it is not high and normal as he has a protective SCBA when he did that.
I meant we have an Arsenic level test that day and periodically.
Im majoring in engineering technology an plan to go work at the number of chip manufacturers in my area. We just toured one recently. Great video!
I was a thin films / vacuum repair tech in part because I knew what Photolithography chemicals had... The operators & mechanics that handled them day in day out did not though. It was maddening.
Worst I ever saw was heated solvent vapors that ate your subcutaneous fat, xylene, etc, but the benzenes & compounds in photoresist are absolutely evil.
Hi my friend said maintaining, repairing vacuum pump and working in the (facilities) sub fab is relatively safer than clean fab, is it true?
@@seng8174 I'm sure that depends on the facility. Mine was 3 floors & the laminar flow pulled about 2 meters between production & underbelly/facilities. Equally they had most conduit/piping done separate of the subfacility in a ~.4-.6 meter tall subfloor. It would be different in different facilities, but repairing conduits for fluids was thin, quickly replaceable copper/etc conduit. It changed every 6 months, was contracted out for liability, & could fail & scare the shit out of everyone. Whereas the "facilities" was mostly huge main lines that never changed & had little risk.
@@seng8174 In short: What I did, process engineers & equipment engineers who actually installed the gear bore the most risk of employees employed on site. Often times the equipment manufacturers had lifelong contracted "technicians" on site for your company & you did not install their more complicated tech so as to get the full value of your service contract.
Regulations exist only on paper. Enforcement is a sick joke. I have some understanding of thermal power, iron, paper, cement, and enforcement is on paper most days
It's always good to take a step back from occupational hazards and consider that people will happily expose themselves to cigarettes, car exhausts, alcohol, fried foods, high-fat diets, low amounts fruit/vegetables, obesity, and a sedentary life style. I say this not to demean, but to place it into perspective.
the things you list are mostly chosen freely. with occupational hazard management chooses for you - to deliver more profit there is a fundamental difference.
@@peter4526 the point was that in certain circumstances, occupational safety is better than personal safety. Any further improvements to occupational safety would then likely have no effect as it's overshadowed by other risk factors
@@peter4526 completely bullshit.
these things are rarely a choice. my entire family histories' medical paradigm is evidence to that end. when you drive your car you are likely being exposed to more things than you can imagine. even when you walk across the street. or enter an ordinary residential house in suburban Ohio. it does not matter. this issue is omnipresent and we are part of the experiment
@@Retrofire-47 sure. never go for the guys that completely control the 8h or more of your live. always go for the other things. mich easier! no change. all good! YEAH! happyhappy
@@redtails the point was that any further improvement to occupational safety is not your choice but the choice of the people that steal money, time and life from you. and would never, ever let their bodies or the bodies of their families and loved ones be exposed to the stuff you/I/we need to take for granted. and galaxy beware workers would want to have a voice in that!
This Topic, how did it even occur to you to make a video on it. Such a deep level of research. Very nice research.
When I was working in machine shops 30 years ago I used 1,1,1, Trichloroethane and
Benzene everyday.
"The Traitorous Eight and all that jazz."
Excellent video! I’ve shared this video with others.
If you want to see the dirty secret of the semiconductor industry look at the parts cleaning loop.
Worked in semi-conductor for 8 years, i felt healthier after i left the industry. 4 years later, i joined back, absorbing the chemical in the air inside the cleanroom. T-T
The fabs left silicon valley because bay area is way too expensive. It has nothing to do with hazardous chemicals in use. Intel's major R&D fab is in Portland and they still have a fab in the bay area. Most of the people who work in the fab have almost no exposure to chemicals since the entire processing is done internally in automated tools. I don't know about your background, but have you really ever been to a real semiconductor fab off late? The real dangers lie in academic fabs and not the big fab houses. Tool manufacturers absolutely know about all expected byproducts of significant concentration and concern and know how to handle the outgoing chemicals. It is not wild west out there.
Thank you for making this video.
Hydrofloric acid was the big one they told you about … but there was a very high rate of psycho behaviour in the fabs due to the fumes
Yeah it was disturbing to see people slowly go insane from the fumes, the EHS charlatan didn't help.
Sulfuric acid is pretty harmless tho as an industrial pollutant…because it’s not very volatile. Boiling point is over 300C iirc. So you really need to plunge your face into it to come in contact with substantial quantities. And once diluted or neutralized, it’s basically harmless.
Welp I have a HDD reader head fab that is 2 blocks from my house. They have been shutdown for years now. My friend worked there and would talk about one of the etchant tanks leaking. Now I am actually wondering if this has any correlation to people in my area having crazy cancers and failed pregnancies.
Shut it conspiracy theorist
TSMC is building a new fab in Arizona. And the US Is pushing for a few more fabs in the US.
That's why it's important to know the risks and learn how to deal with them, rather than sweeping them under the rug or banning them outright.
The volume on your videos is too low. On all other TH-cam videos, I keep my volume slider at about the 1/4 spot. With yours, I have to move it all the way to the top and the volume is still a bit too low.
No idea what you're on about the volume is fine
Strange... on my Sony WH1000-XM3 head phones he's at the same volume as everyone else who speaks in a relaxed voice.
I wish if you just put the articles websites in the description or in the comments .
1-1-1-trichloroethane @ 5:27
I've worked in semiconductor fabs all over the US and Asia for the last 12 years. Handling of any hazardous materials is performed under strict scrutiny and there are sensors in work areas to detect any unexpected releases. You're almost certainly ingesting more dangerous chemicals into your by body eating from plastic food packaging and inhaling the exhaust from your car than fab workers are exposed to on the job.
Can you mention which subcontractors and or companies you worked for in this? Your experience might not be universal but is surely informative
How do you know? Is there even any research on how much of which chemical workers like you are being exposed to? Remember, you spend ~60-80hr/week in presence of these chemicals. No one spend that much time smelling car exhaust* or food packages.
*People living in super polluted cities like Delhi or Dhaka might have similar exposure to car exhaust.
You worked there in PR???
Our company is very strict in handling, usage, storage in recycling chemicals and gases. Singapore government is very strict in implementing environmental laws of the land.
I have worked 8 years in ASML. I am in perfect health and it was a great experience. I'm not saying that semiconductor manufacturers could generate some kind of cancer, but I doubt that ASML. Great video!
that feeling when I realize that I was in contact with most of those chemicals in uni
It used to be much worse. IBM made many advancements. The chemicals are largely isolated from the workers in the aisles. I do worry sometimes, though, working in the industry. Remember hand dipping wafers? 😬
Also, our fab is one of the only in the world which actually still has ashtrays in fab hallways. 😄
Wow, it’s almost as if the technology that we are dedicating the world to is not so good after all. This is a forewarning to our future but it seems that this was determined from the start to happen.
Do a similar one on solar panels.
The industrie left silicon valley because of health issues.
I think a ridiculous bonus for the ceo's is a more realistic main reason.
shouldn't there be data for cancer before and after TSMC in Taiwan?
But you'll have to account for population change
@@leanderbarreto6523 That can be arranged. 1. They should have taken census of population each year
2. They should have noted people dying due to cancer during the period
So where is the result?
@@hahahuhu9828 There is so much more you can not account for. Let's assume that you do this study and it is found out that the cancer rate before TSMC was lower. What is the conclusion? That TSMC causes cancer? There so many more possible factors.
12:00 10% volumetric or compound count?
good to know!
It's not just semiconductor fab. I can get boards fabbed in China or the US, and the differential in cost is about a factor of twenty. The plants are more or less the same and the direct labour costs are minimal: the main difference is disposal of waste. The US plant spends a lot of money for proper waste disposal, the Chinese plant pours used etchant into a sump in the basement.
If you think disposing waste is much more expensive than creating billions of semiconductors size 1/1000 of your hair that must 100% stable work then I feel sorry for you.
Please use a compressor/limiter for your audio track. The volume is too low.
I saw dead birds almost everyday outside for a week. It was very nerve wrecking. I think there's differently danger working at one.
Motorola manufactured solid state devices in their Phoenix, AZ plant. I am unaware of how it happened but they got their tits in a wringer with the EPA by disposing these chemicals in 55 gallon drums and burying them on their property. It has cost them millions for the clean up and I believe this site is still highly contaminated. I worked for Motorola for thirteen years, however as a field tech and field tech rep in RI and PA. Motorola was a good company to work for but they had some anuses in their management system. I left Motorola to pursue a career in aviation.
I guess waste disposal is the most rudimentary thing they can do. Then we talk about exposure thru breathing or skin contact and whether the workers' PPE are enough to prevent such exposures.
My grandfather was ok of those numbers he contracted leukemia from working at one of those places…