This isn’t video related but thanks to your confidence and assurance it gave me the confidence and courage to enter in a fierce debate with a group of Christians disrespecting our gods. I’m proud a follower of the gods but I’ve always avoided debates, due to fear. But tonight I took a stand, and I won. I shut down their disrespect of gods and pointed out how they contradicted themselves to put my rebuttals into Christian light. I’ve never felt more proud in my life, and you are apart of the reason I found courage. So I writing as a thank you. Thank you for helping me find my courage
It is easy for us Christians to fall into the trap of believing we are the exclusive gatekeepers of knowledge, and it's a shame some of my religion aren't interested in learning about how other people see God (or whichever ones you reverence, I'm not sure).
Belief is like attempting a jigsaw when someone has stolen a piece and says they will return it when the puzzle is finished. You can't finish the puzzle until you have it and if you manage to finish the puzzle you don't need that piece anymore.
Philosophical Taoism revealed to me the curious strength that comes with holding one open to possibility; the world of the Mystic. Holding reverence for life and awe towards it mysteries, this is the balance beam I walk. Patterns revel themselves over time; these patterns people name as Gods. I have learned to recognize, but not cling, to these energetic tapestries. It is only one Way.
A little off topic but I think you might enjoy reading 'the broken empire trilogy' starting with 'prince of thorns' and the following trilogy 'red queen's war' starting wit 'Prince of fools'. Second trilogy is my absolute favourite. Themes of possibility and a cracked reality.
Thank you for this. I will say, however, that when I was in seminary, my systematic theology prof told his class: "The opposite of faith is not doubt; the opposite of faith is certainty." That has guided me through my journey as an Anglican priest and a heathen.
I think our approach to epistemology is shaped by our experience of power relations. Solipsism is really only tempting for example if you've been so consistently validated in believing in yourself, in seeing yourself as a being with agency, that the truth of it seems unquestionable. For a variety of reasons I have the exact opposite problem. My experience of Christianity was variously abusive. My self was the LEAST valid source of knowledge - if it was part of my inner experience, not only did it not happen, it was also inherently bad. The version of the Christian God I'm most familiar with demanded total commitment to the invalidation and erasure of self as a prerequisite for a relationship. So now, on an emotional level, it is almost impossible for me to imagine a spirituality in which the human follower gets to have healthy boundaries. Thus for me the knottiest problem is not "Can I know that gods exist?" but rather, "Can I form a valid judgment about whether or not gods can be trusted?"
Fun thought experiment on my home commute. On "knowing" vs "believing:" Many of those who claim to "know" their religious orientation are simply working from conditioned belief. That conditioning is generations deep, if genetic memory is valid, thus it becomes difficult (though not impossible) to think about what is actually the "belief" in any other way than the certainty with which it's expressed. Although sometimes the expression is for the benefit of observers in the orbit of the believer rather than the believer themselves...they say such things to impress the world with their certainty. Ego does that to some. I feel like I've always been a polytheist, even when I was growing up in a mostly monotheistic family. It's part of the baggage I carried at that time because one wasn't supposed to believe such things. But later down the road, it's what made the transition possible. Do I believe in the gods? Well, yeah, though I won't offer with any certainty to explain them. I do have to admit though that a key factor in dropping my own monotheistic baggage was the "logic and rationale" of atheism....I just couldn't fully commit to disbelief. It helped assuage the "conditioned" belief (and genetic memory?) of hellfire and damnation; but didn't ultimately feel right to me. There are lots of beliefs in the world (sus as that is) and I imagine the answer is hiding amongst the combination of them. I don't view one or another as being more or less valid. Rather, I see the variation of beliefs as what they are: cultural interpretations of that which we cannot fully know in the experience of life. I lean (nowadays) toward the Heathen version because it feels more at home for me than those of Eastern, Middle Eastern, or others. But even as I embrace my own gnosis, I don't claim to "know" anything. I don't think we're supposed to. I think the uncertainty is part of the test, so to speak. What we do with it is more germane to the life experience than whether this or that belief is valid. I think solipsism also part of the equation, though admittedly I don't follow the concept closely. Consciousness seems to be an objective truth we all share (I assume this is what is referred to as "the mind), but from there it's all a matter of perception and interpretation of the same. The senses we use to experience life are more like filters - we don't perceive the full light, sound, kinetic, or olfactory spectrums...so yeah, there's much more to reality than we're able to perceive in our waking lives. Again, probably part of the equation. Anyway, good presentation to get the brain waves going. No idea what the answer is, but I don't sweat not knowing it that much. Keeps life interesting.
Thanks for the interesting discussion. I absolutely think there's a lot of fault in placing so much importance on whether we "know" things with absolute unquestionable certainty. There are a lot of things we can never know for sure and I think if we block ourselves off from exploring and finding solace in things that we can't necessarily confirm in a certain, objective manner, then we're losing a lot of worthwile things by doing so (and I don't just mean spirituality! there are many things that fit under this).
How much do you think a person's personality influences what gods they gravitate to? Do you think that feeling of kinship with a god gives people a better sense of comfort than worshipping a god that is their polar opposite?
A very good " apparently" well thought out presentation! Good job...🤓! I think, therefore I am confused, and am free to admit that!!! Lol!! Gonna have to watch/ listen a few more times to this.. try ...n let it sink in... 👍🐾🐺🧙♂️🐺🐾👍 🙊🙈🙉!!!!
Ocean, this is really well explained! I'm istening after a rough, bad'ish' day. I've a question, but first, I was thinking while you were talking about believing without knowing, Bill Maher has a segment called 'I can't prove it, but I know it's true' and it's pretty funny. I love the multi sus part! My question is probably really dumb, and I'm sure very suspicious! Fellow commenters may answer, hopefully charitably! So, what is the difference between pagan and heathen? 👍👏💝🥰✌
Hi Ocean, I want to ask you something about spirits... So there was one moment of my life in which I saw a spirit. It was a no ordinary spirit, it was the spirit of arlequin, a female arlequin. I felt that it wasn't a wondering spirit, but a spirit of some kind of purpose, of which I can't be sure. It said my name, I don't know why, or maybe it sounded like that to me. So what can you say about this experience of mine, maybe share some information, or if you like give me an opinion!? Thank you in avance!
Every time I try to think of a pun for the Gods, it almost not Freyr how strange they are. I guess I could make a joke that’s more Loki but that would be pretty Frigg-in stupid. I could Hodr along and try to make a better joke but as they say, the Thor the merrier.
As a pagan who is BOTH a former Catholic and a former atheist, this was a really interesting and well thought out video. I definitely feel like people try to be too "black and white" in these conversations. There can be so many subtle shades of gray that often get missed.
@@aelfwealld No hate, but as a life long atheist I find this neopagan thing very cringe. Most people in there are former christians with traumas who dont actually believe in any of it.
@jonoc3729 how do you know they don't actually believe? Are u just making an assumption? (yes). A lot of former religious ppl have prayed to God and have gotten answers from pagan gods instead. I find a lot of you atheists are very similar to christians, same coin, opposite sides.
I was also Christian, until I started to notice and take into account how my experiences were absent with the Christian god. So I went exploring. I got DEEP into mythologies and different cultures around the world, till one stuck with me and felt the most correct (which was Norse heathenism). My beliefs come from the experiences I had and continue to have with the gods, as I have always treated them with respect and love. Which in turn, they repay me with kindness as well; like family. I would even say that I attribute a lot of my happiness, success, and willingness to grow, to them. No matter what belief someone might have; I hope they find that same, or similar peace with themselves and the world around them. Much love
I took the same route and it brought me closer to Yahweh. In fact, I am still diving because there is so much that has been stolen by time and revolving propaganda machines. Do not confuse the ways of men for the ways of gods. If you are clear headed, it is very easy to tell the two apart. The problem, as I see it, is the very ridiculous notion that any Deity, or any one, can be boxed in. That every thing has to be One Way. Kinda like saying that everyone experiences everything the same way. But they do not. Spoonfed spirituals don’t take the time to hunt for their nourishment. They spit out what lines they were fed and call it a day. We have to Hunt for greater meaning. One could even say Cultivate. Or Weave. No matter the path, there must be effort to make peace with ourselves and the rest of Reality.
One thing I often struggle with is determining what interpretations are right. If you have an indeterminate divine experience how do you know if it's from a monotheistic god, a polytheistic god, or if the experience itself was anything more than a misperception? This is the only thing that seems to keep me from belief in deities. I've had experiences I aould call religious, but they could have been one of many things.
@@kellysouter4381 That is something I've wanted to do, but I am conflicted over. It might sound dumb but the deity I naturally identified as the cause is a Hindu deity. I was studying Hinduism at the time and have no idea if that influnced my perception. Even if I ignore that, I'm not sure how to go about praying to a deity that is still worshipped in a culture so culturally different than my own in a manner that is ethical. This might be over analysis on my part honestly
Honestly all relationships with a spiritual being are different. Humans perceive the world very differently from each other, so why wouldn't it be the same with the divine? I often see my deities in more human forms or I feel their presence. Some of my friends see them as images or in the world around them. There is no concrete interpretation of a deity because they are everything and nothing all at once. They are a part of your mind, a feeling, an event, even the universe itself. We cannot think truly of Gods because we are human. To see a God for everything it is wouldn't make sense. That's just my two cents, though. Your beliefs will be different from mine and be very unique. Explore them and come to your own conclusions.
I really enjoyed this video. This is something that I have thought about quite often. I came to the conclusion that, no, I cannot scientifically prove that the gods exist, but I choose to believe in them based upon experiences I have had. Others who have had different experiences may come to different conclusions. I have noticed that many atheists want to have absolute hard scientific proof and I just don't think that spirituality works like that. Great video!
How does this not boil down to "your truth" though? Meaning no truth. Or make believe. I recognize that may seem reductive but to my mind any person deciding to "believe" in their favorite flavor is dismissing every other flavor. And if you claim they all exist you lose me. It is so...so clear that we have created from whole cloth every story ever told. Why do we need the metaphysical. We have new religions born within generations that should stand as confidently on assertions like yours. I'm sure Mormonism and Scientology deserve that kind of respect, right?
@@Amrylin1337 I'm not understanding how all flavors exist and this is my favorite one/type is beyond you. I don't want to sound like a dick, but isn't this something that ppl do everyday and accept with actual flavors?
As an atheist, I think it's perfectly valid to choose to believe something based on the best interpretation of your own personal experience you can come up with, whether or not you can demonstrate it to anyone else. There are many things that we believe in that we actually can't demonstrate, about ourselves and the world. The only caveats I have is that most of the time I don't think the supernatural is the best interpretation of people's experiences even from the perspective of the person having the experience, and secondly, you can't explain other people to believe you if all you have is personal experiences.
@@Amrylin1337 My personal hierarchy of favorite flavors does not negate the existence of anyone else's and can't. I'd have to be elevated to the ultimate arbiter of flavors, which is patently absurd when considering the thousands of flavors out there. You also claim it's obvious humanity created the stories from whole cloth but fail to present any evidence for it. And really, why would it matter? We also created the scientific method, plastics, and chocolate from cacao beans. Humans create and develop things and ideas. It's part of our normal process of existence. I'm creating this comment as I type. If some of us created the gods as a means of explaining certain concepts, why do you care? Just don't follow them if that bothers you. My choice to interact with certain deities is exactly that. So long as I don't use my beliefs as a weapon against unbelievers, you cannot accurately judge me as problematic.
@@Matt-on4of I know the question was directed to someone else, but I think omens during rituals are pretty incredible sometimes… probably what ultimately transformed me into an animist / polytheist. In my experience, deities express themselves in different ways, and I think is more believable when you don’t know how the deity will behave. You experience it first and find out later how is it that this deity expresses themselves to others, it often matches with what is supposed to happen. One example for me is that I often get some amount of money in some unlikely manner after I feel the strong presence of a goddess associated with wealth and luck… It always happens 1 hour or 1 exact day after I feel that. I don’t feel her strong presence in a lot of cases though, so I guess she doesn’t always choose to do something in the physical world.
@@thepeopleslibrary8673 I agree. One god that has smiled on me for a long time has done things like clear busy roads of traffic in a safe manner. Such as flipping the lights red out of turn. As a teen, his assistance was very useful in getting home. As an adult, I still appreciate it very much.
The old gods have simply kept me alive under circumstances that should have ended me. I view them as not really “ caring” at all about me personally but rather they get a kick out of allowing “ the game” of my life life to continue because I acknowledges them and do not ask unreasonable things lol.
The first time I ever tried to contact the gods in any capacity was when I was trying to talk to Vör for guidance. I was completely ignorant of heathen practices and I used a meditation where I was supposed to envision a garden space where I could talk to her. The entire thing felt forced, but at the end I do think I had a breakthrough because I was hit with a message so clearly that I can’t attribute it to anything else. You wanna know what she said? “This garden is bullshit.” And I have taken that with me as a lesson. It was everything I needed to hear.
The first thing I had to accept as I started moving away from Christianity and into polytheism was that regardless of where I ended up absolute proof did not exist, so the best I could do was find something that was real to me through experience and was something I wanted to participate in and go from there. The Christian god is real to me even now because of the experiences I had, but so are other gods. Christianity has hurt me in ways that polytheist spaces have not, and so I'm still debating whether or not Christianity or their god will be a part of my practice. One of the best things polytheism ever taught me is that I can believe in a god and still choose not to worship them or engage with them.
I'm in a similar place religiously, though I identify as a monolatrist Christian (I actively worship the Christian God, but believe that others exist as well.) I probably would have wound up being more alienated by Christianity if it weren't for my mother's family's very casual non-dogmatic brand of it, which is what my own practice follows. Basically we operate under the assumption that at the end of the day God just wants people to behave in a kind and just manner, and doesn't really care that much about things like actually attending church, exact interpretations of the bible, or whether you actually even worship him or not. We've all had experiences we attribute to the Christian God, and assume that if he disapproved of our stance he would have given up on us long ago, but obviously we won't know for sure until we're dead. Meanwhile, the other side of my family is Church of Christ, spent a decent amount of my childhood trying to convert me, most of my parent's marriage trying to convert my mom when they weren't bullying her, and generally dismissing all of us as dinosaur-believing pagans (anyone not Church of Christ is pagan according to them, regardless of their actual beliefs.) Which has been my experience with a lot of other Christians too, unfortunately, which is why I tend to gravitate more towards polytheistic or agnostic circles as well...too many Christians scare me...
Isn't it a false dilemma when you interpret certain spiritual experiences as either nothing or the god you're psychologically/culturally predisposed to?
@@friendlyjester8482 I suppose so, but at the end of the day all I have to work with are my experiences and limited knowledge. The things I believe in may not be true, and I don't want anyone to take my experiences as evidence for them to be true, but as long as wherever I land spiritually isn't harmful to myself or others and it continues to be fulfilling to me I'm alright with not being perfectly intellectually diligent. I could be misinterpreting my own experiences based on my biases, and that's a risk that's always going to be there. I will never know for sure and I'm okay with that. I'm a bit tired so my head isn't exactly very clear or focused, but I hope this helps and makes sense. I found your reply to be a pretty interesting one to think about, even if my brain isn't at its best at the moment.
It's really interesting watching your discussion as an atheist, and agreeing with a lot of what you're saying. I'm a fan of the notion of "practicality" when it comes to belief and knowledge: if it seems to be true now, and I can use it to make predictions about the future, then I should assume it is true; doing otherwise is impractical. I think this ties into what you said at the end about "exploring ideas" and solipsism. I can recognize that I do not know for certain anything except that I exist in some fashion, but proceed with my life and my observation of the world as if everything that *appears* to exist, *does.* It's more interesting that way anyways. As for your earlier comments... I think there is an important point to be made that I don't think you touched on (unless I missed it). The Bible, and other texts/records from history like it, are good things to examine from a historical perspective. They are, after all, talking about *history,* and trying to use scientific methods to examine history is... just not applicable (like, imagine trying to use the scientific method to figure out specific details of what happened during the American Civil War! You'd reach the "experimentation" phase and realize that you've nothing to experiment with). However, many of these books do make scientific *claims.* By way of an example, the Bible claims that God turned Lot's wife into a pillar of salt. The discussion of whether or not this, or a similar event, actually *happened* is a historical thing, and would involve cross-referencing other resources to see if we could determine one way or the other if anything even vaguely resembling this event likely took place. The question of whether or not it is even possible for a human to *be* spontaneously turned into a pillar of salt, however, is a scientific one. And is a rather extraordinary claim, too; taking our bodies, mostly composed of carbon, hydrogen, and oxygen, and rapidly transforming those elements into mostly sodium and chloride, would be a process that had never been seen before! At least, not at a time where we could actually make detailed and easily verifiable recordings of the phenomenon. Thus, the *historical* examination of the event is colored by the *scientific* observation that such an event seems *highly* unlikely; as historical examinations try to find out what event *most likely* took place, the historian must then mark that event as improbable, and find more historical evidence than usual before proposing it as historical fact. I dunno, it seemed worth pointing out. Seriously though, it was really gratifying to hear someone talk about how they look at the world in a way similar to my own... you just have seen/do see patterns that indicate to you that deities exist, and I never have. Thus, one of us lives assuming that they do, and the other assuming that they do not. I do kind of wonder if I would have come to the same conclusions as you had I experienced what you had, differing perspectives and all. WOW that was long. And I doubt almost anybody will see it (I dunno how many of your comments you actually read LOL) but it was nice to get out at least o3o (to add a tl;dr: it's cool to see another person who looks at "when should we act as though things exist" in a very similar way to myself, and sometimes historical documents make extraordinary scientific claims, and when they do that colors how historically accurate we may consider them because historians look for what events seem *most* likely to have happened)
Long but brought in a lot of good points that I agree with. I'm a fan of the historical method, which often utilizes inferences to the best explanation (which is where, as you gave a good example, science can aid us in understanding history), which would mean understanding the mechanism by which events took place. This is why we don't include the actions of deities, at least as credited to those deities, in our established historical narrative, because we don't understand the mechanisms by which they interact with the world. We can, however, include the attestations that people make to them so that we can note for further examinations by those interested in those claims as they explore the subject for themselves.
@@OceanKeltoi WOAH you actually saw what I said, that's kewl (legit have never had a human on the youtube part of the internet say anything to me so like... exciting) And yeah! Hadn't thought about personal examinations, but that definitely makes sense. Especially when the topic itself is so tied to personal experience; having those resources so people can bounce what happened to them off of what stories are left from the past would be very helpful.
This definitely speaks to my post-Catholic experience. I decided that if we can't know which deity is the "right" one, why play the guessing game? I've been in limbo (agnosticism, I guess?), for the last 22 years as a result. I still think there may be a higher power, but the whole thing overwhelms my ADHD-addled brain. Christianity is a no-go, and having lived through its lens for so long makes looking outside quite difficult. This is one of the biggest reasons I appreciate your viewpoints, Ocean. They give me hope that perhaps I'll find a new home someday. I really want to, but the fog is thick (and Leon's getting larger!).
I am the wisest man alive, for I know one thing, and that is that I know nothing. Socrates But, I do “believe” that I “know” some things, yet those may be disproven or disputed at any time. Good video!
As someone who does theoretical science, hardcore empiricism frustrates the ever living hell out of me. So many people don't seem to understand that science deals in *models* of reality, not Truth. Great video, Ocean!
As a fellow scientist I agree, that when Reddit Atheists insist on "science being the path to truth" I feel nauseous, because in our framework/"philosophy" truth is an idealist, unpragmatic and problematic concept. They took the general statements from educators and scientists which go something like "science is the best thing we have to ensure our knowledge about our world is correct" (which I interpret as, OK science is the least wrong in its approach, but that doesn't mean there is any special well of knowledge we are hiding) to mean "science is the only way to deal with truth". This is such a huge leap in claims and implications that I always get a bitter taste in my mouth from it.
@@varany3376I'm just a student in chemistry, so I'm not going to talk like I'm a valid scientist, but your comment is exactly the way I think, and I really appreciate reading it. I firmly believe in science as a good approach to understand the world around us, to understand ourselves, but I think that's just one part of the experience, and that ignoring the other aspects of our lives, our beliefs, experiences, and thoughts because of being "non empirical" misses the point of searching for "truth". Even though, as it has been said, "truth" is vague, and it's an ideal that we try to get close to. I believe science is just a part of the experience of "seeking truth" not the whole experience itself. Hope that makes sense.
I really like this video since this is the question I struggle the most with and I've convinced myself before that either I don't exist or I'm the only thing that exists..... but I've learned to not think about that part too much so we good
13:08 thank you for mentioning this. Almost EVERYONE I run into in the online occult world would rather believe in pseudoscience then admit that science can be correct. There’s a massive massive dislike if not hatred towards science. It’s ridiculous.
You don't get it, we need to take the Lovecraftian approach. All our "sciences" are the comfortable lie we tell ourselves to make sense of a senseless world! /s
@@sorayatorchic it’s not like people will just blatantly say since is a lie. Instead they pretty much only ever mention science if they are talking shit about it. And then get upset if I ever point that out. And in my experience if all you do is criticize something then you clearly really really dislike it. No offense but your response here was an example of that. You don’t see a dislike of science in the pagan community…but you’re very happy to criticize it? That’s pretty much the same in my opinion as just saying you don’t like it. And yes people use the idea of science to try and disprove your beliefs. But the community at large has decided that this means the only time science can be talked about is when your criticizing or just outright shitting on it. That’s not too far removed from calling belief in science scientisim and just joining the extreme conspiracy theorists in believing anything no matter what.
I don't understand this. I use science daily at my job . Then again I work as a Veterinary Technician at a Zoo. Everyone at my job knows that I am Pagan and they don't care because I have been a Vet Tech for about 3 decades now. So they are aware I know what I am doing.
This made me think of the time I believed I had to make a connection with the gods in order to believe in them, or really BE a spiritual person. I still can’t say if I’ve ever received a “sign” from the gods or have felt their presence. As awesome as that would be, I’ve realized that’s not the most important part of my spiritual journey.
I'm at the part of the video where you describe how we know things. I really like this open. I'm someone who wants to believe in gods but I'm deeply agnostic. I have had experiences that keep me going with my practice to one extent or another, but I also find myself doubting the meaning of those experiences enough that I hesitate to call myself a believer. I wouldn't call myself an atheopagan, but I don't think I fall strictly into the theistic camp either. That being said even with my half-faith I feel a deep connection to the gods even if I don't have the confidence to say I believe in the gods. Its an odd feeling.
I actually know exactly what you mean and what I loved most about this man's thoughts is that he was letting us know it is perfectly fine..no...great even!- to embrace that ambiguity and uncertainty whether you believe or not. Actually what he said reminds me a lot about other important things in life some of which you'll hear people talk about in the world of therapy too. Last night I was watching the latest episode of a well loved show called 'The Boys' which delved into the same type of uncertainty within our current ideals of 'masculinity' and how trying to artificially force certainty into it just leads to more suffering and greater insecurity in the end.
The exact same thing has been happening to me, so let me teach you this phrase: "What can't be answered by your brain, can sometimes be answered by your heart" And despite my rather agnostic views, I still practice my religion and worship my Gods, so I guess you can too!
I am an ex Muslim atheist who studied biology. How many stereotypes do I cross off? Yes I've experienced a little bit of the frustration early on in my spiritual exploration to find difficulties in communicating with those who believe differently than I. I've no come to appreciate and even love religions of different kinds as well as other spiritual disciplines for what they may offer especially in the idea that others believing differently than I do can offer such Rich Variety in perspective on the world. I no longer think it it's sad that others think differently than I.
Only two minutes in, I just want to note that I'm an epistemic anti-realist or philosophical agnostic. I don't think truth exists or if it does humans don't have access to it. This has been a big step towards me respecting other perspectives and also to my personal happiness because trying to find truth is exhausting in the same way that trying constantly to stick your tongue to the back of your head would be.
In chaos magick this is really important as the practice suggests that you try out switching different belief systems and paradigms to see their effects and how can they be used in your advantage.
This was such a great listen and helped me clarify some things I don't always know how to put into words regarding my own slow transition from being a hardcore atheist edgelord to actually believing in some ancient gods even if just a little bit nowadays. With that said I still believe the best thing for society is for church and state to remain strictly separate and for us to try and base our policies on science first because it's the closest thing we currently have to 'objectivity', but for our personal lives I really like this approach of spiritual belief as something to explore and grow with, without that requiring us to dogmatically 'believe' the same way Christians would. Instead you can explore and experiment and 'believe' at the same time. Which is basically what I have done with the polytheist faiths, and rather than what the Christians would say about that somehow being a sign of 'weakness' for polytheism I actually view it as not only a huge strength, but just something that is healthier for followers in general. That you're free to explore before making this huge commitment, and free to leave if it turns out to not be compatible in the end, and that you're allowed to be comfortable with the inescapable greyness that comes with existence, and still be empowered to do your best with it all anyway. As for me I also came to convene with the Gods more often when I had unlikely personal experiences with them that made me want to get to know them better and make them a part of my life more. I don't want to convert anyone just based on that. I view at as personal to me and if anyone is curious I'll talk to them but that is it. Since coming to the realizations I have though I always viewed it more as something I'm exploring and building a relationship with the same way I would a new friend and it's hard to get that nuance across to people raised in a culture where they are taught that nuance and uncertainty are mutually exclusive with friendship, belief, or strength! And that is what I love about polytheism so much is that there IS room for that nuance in our spiritual practice!
I was having a bit of Christian leftover anxiety over my lack of being able to, like, scientifically verify the god’s’ existence. Thank you very much for this video; it helped me realize how much of my anxiety is just hanging on from my previous religion and that I really don’t need to worry about it in that way. Questioning things is actually ok now! :)
*Re: Solipsism* I took a Philosophy class about a month or two ago now, and your section on solipsism called to mind reading Descartes' Meditations. I could never roll with the idea that imperfect senses required their dismissal as a whole. That seems to be an extreme measure, in my mind. I think the more reasonable assumption is that of damage or poor conditions causing these issues, rather than a malevolent force/demon deceiving a person by providing these senses. Also, I think the idea of two solipsists conversing is just bloody hilarious. It would seem to me that, eventually, they would both come to think the other is _sus._ It sounds like the ultimate form of egotism to only recognize oneself as "real."
Absolutely loved this topic. Thank you so much for taking the time. I find so many other videos on mono/a/polytheism to feel, as you said, dogmatic. They prop up things using holy scripture as all the proof they need, they prop up things using hard science and logic like a cudgel, the prop up things with the fluffiest of bunnies and mind-numbing leaps in their thinking. I had never realized it before, but I do believe it is due to something latent they are carrying around. When I dropped out of my very loose and casual hold of Christianity and felt the pulling of the gods, part of the reason I gravitated toward the Norse pantheon was the fact that so little remains of "official knowledge" and much of what we have to pull from has been whitewashed heavily by Christianity that I would pretty much be FORCED to blaze my own trail to get to know these deities. In doing so, I would have to be honest with myself. I would have to know that I don't REALLy know, and that not knowing is OK. The gods get along just fine without me. They don't need me to sing praises to exist. I hope they dig my cat purr of fancy libations poured in their honor as I clumsily fumble my way through what might pass as a prayer and know that I'm doing my damnedest to show that I am earnestly reaching out to make a connection. Not "knowing" is the most refreshing aspect of my spiritual journey. I've never felt so unburdened in my life. Thanks again for such an insightful and useful video. It really helps fresh Heathens like myself to navigate this brave new...er, old world.
Hey man - one of your unicorn Catholic viewers here as I've mentioned before. Love the shit out of this video and the discussion of epistemology. Really enjoying seeing my own perspectives reflected in other faiths.
The old adage “you don’t know what you don’t know” feels appropriate. This is a reach, but I realized fairly recently that I can stop overreacting to certain things with my son (who is now 12) because he simply doesn’t carry the same baggage and associations (and subsequent reactions to) that I do around said thing; UNLESS I GIVE IT TO HIM! 🤣 And thus I had a mind blown moment of “we teach what we pass on.”
I liked the brief mention of gender identity in there because this is something I've run into far more often than I should have to among other atheists (and is one of the reasons I avoid atheist communities and hate a lot of terminally online debater atheists). Cause I'm a trans woman. I am more certain about that than I am about anything else in my life. Even if the reality we experienced were a complete illusion I would still know I'm a woman. And it is literally impossible for me to prove that conclusively to anyone because it is entirely based on personal experience that only exists within my brain. I've even brought that up a couple of times when challenging atheists on their complete dismissal of personal experience. And I usually get one of two responses: either they deny the existence of trans people entirely and say social sciences are garbage, or they argue I can prove it to others. The latter is the more interesting but it is still wrong. Because nothing I do can prove to another person I'm trans. Some will argue "well you can get diagnosed with gender dysphoria by a specialist." Sure, but what if I'm faking it? Or what if I'm just depressed and get misdiagnosed? Ironically the reverse of that happened when my dysphoria was misdiagnosed as depression for years. Point is it's not conclusive proof. "Well you can go on hormones or get surgery or otherwise transition in some way." Sure, but I could still be faking it. Maybe I just like estrogen. Maybe I'm just such a big fan of boobs I've decided to grow some. There's plenty of things I can do that indicate I'm probably trans, and we generally accept that people who engage in these things and who describe their experience in ways x, y, and z are usually trans. So we roll with it. But I can never conclusively prove it to anyone else. I can't even expose them to the experiences that led to me figuring it out beyond just explaining it. They'll never feel it. They'll never live it. But I'm still trans whether they want to believe it or not. Whether I can meet their arbitrary standards of evidence or not.
I carried way to much of my Atheistic mindset into my belief in Native American religion. As far as I'm concerned, I've had personal experience from a place completely devoid of previous knowledge that proves to me, personally, that the spirits are real, but I do not consider myself subservient to anything, I do believe all our myths & stories are 100% made up by people, excepting the ones actually meant to be based upon real history, at every point where there is a disagreement with what science me when dealing with this world, I choose science & I don't feel the need to prove anything to anyone. It kind of makes me have a little less respect respect someone if they just believe everything I say without question, even when it seems to contradict reality. Despite some of them being kind of asinine, coming from a place of thinking all religion is about control, Atheism is a fairly noble & perfectly normal stance to take & I'd be happier being in a room of Atheists than a room of Christians most days.
I do have to agree with the take on 'certainty'. So often in debates do I see a demand not only for showing a position is likely the case but that it is certainly the case. I just don't get why so many people seem to have a different epistemological standard when it comes to different topics or methods of discussion/debate. I mean, having a stricter standard when trying to find out what is certainly the case (like in science, court trials, etc.) is helpful for those particular goals, but in daily life this standard is usually only brought up on a certain subset of topics that usually there is some level of emotional investment in (like the god(s) debate).
The gods communicate with us through coincidence and once we start to notice these convenient circumstances (small miracles) the existence of the gods, and thier intervention is undeniable.
Great video, interesting topic. So In the end ocean believes his experiences because that’s really all anyone has to work with. Their personal experiences.
For me the cementing experience with the Gods is the very real and very shared experience among us of spiritual exhaustion after interacting with them. Intense sobbing (joyful), shaking, exhaustion, exuberant euphoria all wrapped up in one. An more importantly, is discovering it first on my own then talking about it and finding many others have experienced the same with different deities, thought I do recommend Freyja. ;)
SPG is, if you'll excuse the phrase, a godsend. I wouldn't have expected someone who didn't have my background to have experiences with Skaði that lined up so well with my own, but I've found that to be exactly the case.
I've always viewed science as the study of the natural world and arcana as the study of the supernatural world, two sides of the same coin. If humans are ever to improve, I believe it is key to understand both the material and spiritual worlds. Great video btw
This is not entirely accurate. If there was a way to study the supernatural world, then studying the supernatural world would also be science. This is a flaw I've seen in some obscure Christian apologetics. Specifically, there's currently three broad domains under science, as there are three studiable regions that have been discovered. Mathematical science, natural science, and social science, itself a subset of natural science.
@@warrendriscoll350 Not quite. Science is based on the scientific method which relies on natural behaviors and rules we observe in the physical world. These rules aren't as simple or consistent with the supernatural, as there are too many unknown variables to be able to consistently experiment and thus you can't research it as you would other forms of science
@@TheBitingBat The scientific method does not rely on natural behaviour. It relies on empirical philosophy. If you are referring to the laws of physics as rules, those are the products of observation, not the source of observation.
@@warrendriscoll350 well science as a whole relies on the principle that if you do the same exact experiment 100 times you will get the same result every time. The supernatural doesn't work that way, it is by it's very nature impossible to accurately replacate consistent because supernatural forces are perpetually shifting and don't follow strict rules like things in our physical world do. Even quantum physics at least follows logical empirical rules that you can prove with consistency. That's why I don't limit myself to only science to explain the supernatural or preternatural. I use science and other forms knowledge in my pursuit of understanding for this very reason.
I have been wishing for a true spiritual experience for all my life, and never had I had one that I have not felt like I was stretching to fit what I wanted to believe, at least until I had a dream featuring Thor. And of course by that I don’t mean Chris Hemsworth but a man that my brain simply processed as “Thor”. He healed multiple cuts that I had had all over my left hand, and then was following me on a wooded path. That’s all I remember. I don’t think Thor is a god of healing, but hey he is known for protecting humans. Anyway it surprised me as I had no real explanation as to why I would dream something like this. I had been studying Norse related things for a while, but 1. They were mainly related to the Havamal and Odin, not Thor, 2. It just didn’t feel right for me to chalk it up to “I’ve been studying things related to this therefore that is why I dreamed of it therefore it has no meaning” But yeah. I was raised as a Christian for most of my life and I have never had an experience that I can confidently say was Yahweh, Satan, or any other Christian deity. So I just found that interesting.
There is some association with Thor and healing. I’ve seen a bit of shared personal experiences relating to that. So your dream would have consistency with that.
Uh oh beware the Alex Grey esque fractal art and kool aid pushers who advocate for some woke commie BS like “ shadow work “ in order to commune with the gods.
To understand how Polyethism declined and how Christianity rose, I think studying Constantine and how Polytheism declined is a very vital subject to understanding this very fundamental question your video suggests. Also, the reason for how early Christianity rose in Europe is key. There was an incident I remember in Pagan Germania were two priests came to this Holy Tree of Wodan or some God. I can't remember. One of them struck the tree loudly proclaiming that they would strike the tree and challenged that pagan God to be struck by lightning. Nothing came as the priest struck the tree. Quite an interesting story but I'd love to see you make a video about this topic.
Thank you so much for this video. I think you were fairly thorough, and at a level that is fairly easy to interact with. This provides a good baseline for future discussions. Just a few things that I would like to add, though much of my thinking on epistemology is a work in progress. 1. I think there is a deeper reason behind the dogmatic approach to knowledge than Christian influence. While not going as far as the solipsist, we can consider the justified true belief definition of knowledge (for example), which is prechrisitian in origin. Under this framework, I might not be able to prove my knowledge, but it must be true first - meaning two who hold contradictory beliefs would not both be capable of knowledge. 2. On the other hand, knowledge must be able to exist at least in some sense, as we could experience no phenomenon of it otherwise. Certainly it may be a construct of mind, as the solipsist would argue, but then it exists in the mind. This should not be confused with the notion that any experience of knowledge necessarily IS knowledge, however. 3. Epistemology seems to be mutually derivable with logic. That is, when I have a valid argument, I have knowledge that the conclusion will follow from the premises if the premises are true. One may claim that this depends on the rules or logic, but it as much depends on the definition of knowledge. I suspect that any agreed upon rules for logic are tautological with a definition of knowledge. There’s a lot more that can be said on this, but I don’t want to write a thesis in a TH-cam comment, and I think others would prefer I don’t attempt so either. So, I think we are tempted to generalize our concepts of knowledge to apply beyond conclusions drawn from valid arguments, when really it should be better treated as an exercise in consistency. None of this contradicts what you have said, in my mind - I just saw an opportunity to share some thoughts on this subject as it has been on my mind quite a bit lately. Cheers.
The solipsist is not the only one that would argue that knowledge exists only in the mind. If knowledge is a type of belief, we already know it only exists in the mind, unless you can point to a non mind holding belief anywhere.
@@warrendriscoll350 apologies for a delayed response, I didn’t get a notification. What I mean by knowledge as a construct of the mind is, that as a phenomenon it is strictly the sensation - that there is knowledge when it “seems” like there is knowledge, because truth itself is only a quality of mind (because everything is a quality of mind). This line of reasoning is uniquely solipsistic.
I've never specifically held Christian or monotheistic beliefs but was raised in a household where it became increasingly prevalent and, honestly, kind of aggressive. Of course, some of the concepts rubbed off on me, like you must KNOW or you are WRONG, and had led to some pretty extreme arguments with family. As I've grown and gained more lived experience, though, I've come to the wonderful conclusion that no one can really know and honestly I don't care anymore! As you said, there's a few billion of us, one of us might be right, or not! Personally I've come to the thought/counter argument of "There are 8 billion people and counting, what is the chance of ONE person having it all right?" It has relaxed me so much and made me much more open to exploration and learning of so many things. It also leads to delightful confusion when someone says they know something for certain and I reply without much argument or rebuttal (when appropriate, some things still get shot down HARD). Great video and I have a feeling you just really like saying sus :P
I find your channel incredibly fascinating as an atheist, but i do have a few questions: - Do you make a claim of religious exclusivity? Or do other pantheons exist? In your most recent video you said that the Greeks called (insert overly complicated norse name) Chaos. Do you believe that the Greek Gods are just primitive, proto-forms of the Norse ones which later europeans were able to better understand? Or are the Hellenic and Norse traditions equally valid? I was actually a hellenic polytheist for a few years, and i've felt the same "Connection" to my Gods. I poured out libations to Zeus and Athena and asked questions and made pleas, receiving answers the following day. I burned incense for Hermes and traveled safely. I prayed to Poseidon and successfully operated a ship when i was young (Though, in hindsight, it was probably in autopilot and the captain was just letting me fuck with the wheel) - How do you feel about the portrayal of your gods in media? Christians flip their shit when Jesus isn't depicted as a chestnut-haired, blue-eyed, white european dude. Muslims attack people when Muhammad is depicted at all. But your gods, as well as my old ones, are getting decapitated by Kratos and Gorr the God Butcher. Does this bother you at all? - What happens to non-believers? Do you make the same claim of "Follow me or my god(s) will hurt you" like the Christians do? - Do you intend to die a warrior's death to enter Valhalla at some point, or do you think that Odin is subbed to your youtube channel and he'll let you in? And beyond that, do you believe in a literal ragnarok? I mean no disrespect with these questions, i know they might sound rude, but i am asking them genuinely
Objective experience is a synthesis of two or more shared subjective experiences. When a hundred people share an experience of an apparition of the holy virgin, that is objective. How you interpret that experience is another issue. Knowledge is the false Sefirot. It must be judged by understanding and wisdom which come from "above" while data and information come from "below" (see Tree of Life diagram). Experience overrides belief. I do not believe in my car; I experience my car. What goes for cars, goes for spirits and gods (and magick). Of course, you can stick your fingers in your ears and close your eyes shouting nah, nah, nah, and believe what you want. It just inhibits life. Everything becomes a meaningless accident regardless of the measurability of meaning.
As someone questioning their beliefs, this video was a large comfort to me. I completely feel the "dogmatic pressure". I want to explore and experiement- currently I still believe the Abrahamic God is the center of everything, but I am starting to believe that other gods and spirits are manifestations of that source, and we are all parts of that source, and praise of other gods is a praise of that personality and aspect of the source. and yet, I feel an intense pressure to be right, to not be straying from what's "correct". and it's a great comfort to recognize that not only is that not realistic, but it is okay to branch into ideas based on your experiences. it's a hard road to travel, though
I love how acting with knowledge is “putting the cart before the horse”. If this is your philosophy you’re deluding yourself. Everyone acts on knowledge. Beliefs come from knowledge. The idea of gods making lightning came after humans gained the knowledge through sight that lightning occurred.
Well I'm not gonna talk about solipsism. But anyway. Here is my theory about the gods: Okey so, it's fairly reasonable to say that our consciousness is the result of electrical impulses interacting with each other inside our brains, they do that through connections that the neurons provide. Now, are those connections exclusive to physicality or are they possible without physical connections (aka neurons)? Using only energy? Or even non-solid materials? Assuming that it is, it would only be possible with a ton of energy. What would have that amount of energy then? Well the sun is a literal giant ducking reactor. What about the Earth's core? That also has a lot of thermal energy as well as kinetic energy. What about the moon's core? What about Jupiter's core? What about Mars's core? That would explain a lot of civilizations worshiping the sun as a god, or even the earth. Again that's just a theory that I have that makes sense to me.
So, beliefs are a weird thing. I'd been an atheist most my life after a bad experience in church. I, however, was jealous of those who had religion. This big stupid smiles on their faces, I want that. I read a lot on different beliefs, in my research I became friends with a bunch of witches. I still didn't believe and it was hard for me, until I forced myself. HOW? Well, I thought is it possible to believe something you don't have witness to, or knowledge that directly contradicts. Yes, and we all do it. Denial, so I convinced myself, denied my lack of belief, gave myself fully to Norse paganism, and practiced rituals. I've seen things, experienced things, things that solidified my beliefs. I don't believe this is a Norse only deal, no, I believe there are maybe thousands of forgotten gods out there, just waiting for someone to believe. I've been seanchan, thank you for reading 😉
I'd be interested to hear what experiences have led you to believe in the existence of gods. In all my life, I've never seen anything that suggests that any kind of deity exists, or even that they MIGHT. I've also never seen anything suggesting they don't exist, of course, but there's just never been a compelling reason for me to believe in any gods, so I don't. Even when I'm merely assuming something to be true, I at least need some reasons to assume it in the first place, and when it comes to gods I haven't yet come across any. I'm very interested in the topic, however, and in hearing the experiences of others as to how they came to believe what they do. Sadly, most of the people I've discussed this with IRL were of the 'the Bible says so therefore it's true' variety, so I never really got anywhere.
In my experiences I have came to the conclusion that the Gods exist. They are the energies of the universe and all aspects of life and death and everything in between. We give them names so we can more easily connect with them. Also I have noticed my beliefs coincide with science. Science has proven that lightning and thunder comes from a culmination of the earth and sky. Negative and positive charged ions cause a spark and loud crack. Thor was born of a sky god and an earth giantess (Odin and Jord).
After a long and hot summer, I once presented an offering to Thor on the first rain. I stated the one intention I wanted from the offering: to show by some means that the gods exist. I made homemade bread, poured some vodka, and made a sort of alter by a tree. I now have that area designated to at-home offerings. On this day, I also lit 2 candles and an inscent and presented my offerings. I almost felt the present of Thor whom I set out to thank and question. I said some words and asked in this way “I present these offering for one reason, I would like you to show that you exist”. I’ve done this with the Christian god and some other religions to no avail. Here however it started to lightly sprinkle and the wind picked up for several seconds. I asked 3 or 4 times and every time on request, the wind picked up and a sprinkle started. This was the first time by request that a god had ever been willing to present proof of their existance to me, and allowed me to turn from verging atheist to Norse paganism. This was the thing that drew me from not believing in god(s) to believing after trial in the only gods I ever got a response to. It was one of the best experiences, and my first time attempting and offering. This started my journey into Norse paganism which I try to learn more about periodically. Your channel and even TH-camrs like the wisdom of Odin(which I saw your video on and do see your point. He still helped me get started though) helped me to go upon the new journey I find myself in. Keep up the good work, this channel is extremely useful and still entertaining and helps me learn more and more deeply the new faith I find myself in.
I struggle with belief in gods. One of the reasons I left Christianity was because I find it hard to believe in an actual, sentient entity outside of our reality yet interacting with it, especially one that is omnipotent and omnibenevolent. So the concept of multiple sentient entities interacting with our reality, even without the omnipotence, is hard for me to accept. However, I do believe that consciousness is WAY too complex for it to simply be a result of electrical synapses firing in your brain. The concept of our brains actually being receivers and filters of consciousness, rather than creators of it, just seems to jive better for me. So then, where do thoughts come from? What is the source of that signal our brain receives and filters through our own ego and experience? Maybe the different gods are the names we give to whomever it seems sends us those thoughts that don't seem to be our own. Maybe they're personifications of archetypes buried in our collective psyche. In that case, are they functionally different than actual, sentient entities outside of our reality yet interacting with it? I don't know. But I do know that I feel drawn to these particular set of gods, spirit, and worldview. And I'm ok with exploring what the hell that means.
Thank you Ocean, as my current experience aligns with non belief it is the view I currently hold but I can see the wisdom that everyone is having to explore and make judgement calls on the fly. Any one side or group thinking they have an unquestionable Truth has become a red flag for me since leaving christianity and can see where bits of that thinking kind of take up space in the back of atheists, pagans, and others who have continued exploring outside of their previous beliefs. The last thought I had after watching was I expect this kind of feeling may be an intentional process built into some beliefs to try and make it harder for someone to want to explore in the fear that they would leave their original beliefs. I hope through your talks and others more and more of us can see our way to honest exploration.
To be honest if we knew the gods where real is it still faith? To say i am uncertain that the gods are real but i choose to place my faith in them that is what makes it faith. I have experienced this so this strengthens my faith is what makes me believe in the gods. When i make a offer to Thor and ask him to watch over someone. I put my faith in him to do what i cannot do at that moment. And to this day she is safe and i thank Thor for it.
Try this one. Existence does not exist. We are processes living in a world that is a process. We and the world around us are always Becoming something else and in constant motion. Nothing stands still and therefore does not exist. The only motionless process in the universe is light for which, time is all motion and no change.
Really enjoyed this video!! Love the clips and that school of thought is on my list of things to read about so it is nice to see that mentioned in this video lol
I didnt think polytheism was possible when I became distant with Christiananity, and after while I was agnostic wanting to belive in something but had the baggage of not wanting to choose "the wrong one" but after one of your videos I came to the realization that in my opinion there isn't one universal truth but many and its up to the individual to find which one best suits them is basic crude terms my friend puts it in its boring not to believe in something, so why not believe what you want. Which I agree with mostly except that replace "what u want" with what feels right. Let Me know how you guys feel about this stand point and ant thing u may have to add or critique
Many years ago, I followed Asatru. I suppose I had bad experiences in the Asatru community, i.e., folkism, abuse of women, hard right politics, a sense of general anger and even hatred against the world, etc. I just continued on my way, away from that kind of stuff. But I have always remained interested in the core ideas of the old ways. Recently, I happened across this channel quite by accident, or so it would seem, and I am very glad to have done so. You have a most enlightened attitude and approach to this knowledge base. Thank you for sharing with a pagan who has been around the block more than a few times in this life ;-)
I've been an agonistic ever since my mother tried to force me into the christian cult, because while I agree that Christianity is ultimately harmful, if the gods exist, they might even be reincarnations of other beings, like how the Hindus view Devas and Asuras. I think I'm going to try a pagan version of Pascal's wager, as in if the gods exist, I might as well try to foster frith, and if not, well like George Carlin says, I'll pick the superstition that sounds fun, and have fun with it
I still feel plagued by needing to be certain of things. I went from a very strong christian faith to a loose one, then became an atheist, an agnostic after that (mostly because I wasn't certain God didn't exist) and finally I'm here not knowing where I am but paganism is sounding cool right now. Throughout I had several existential crisis about not being certain of anything, I was having doubt I even existed, but ultimately I ended up with the classic "I think therefore I am", so I knew at least I existed in some way. After that I decided to take physical reality as real because it was useful thought, even if solipsism saw it as assumption I think is a fair assumption to make. I feel like I had deconstructed all my beliefs and was rebuild them, but after seeing this video I see there still much deconstruction to be made so I can explore uncertainty without much fear. This video really came in a timely fashion for me.
Great video. Loved the philosophy discussion. I was a Christian because of my parents, but they weren't very dedicated to their religion. I made some great questions and ended up in atheism. I wasn't aware that there was another option, until I met my girlfriend (now my wife) that called herself a witch. I started studying it, ended up in witchcraft and we finally arrived today, in what I'm pretty unsure to classify as "Kemetic neo-pagan", because I mix reconstructionism and eclectic practices. One of the best things in polytheism, for me, is that we don't NEED all the answers. From my personal experience: Christians are obsessed to get their answers from one source, atheists are obsessed to disprove everyone's faith and I... I'm just happy to live today, furthering my life, my practices, my faith and building it as every day passes by. This video quite represents my personal experience and it's great to see more people experience it in similar ways.
the only thing I have absolute certainty about is that this is a great video :p
this youtuber must be a parody account, 'heres why u should believe in thor lmfaao'
This isn’t video related but thanks to your confidence and assurance it gave me the confidence and courage to enter in a fierce debate with a group of Christians disrespecting our gods. I’m proud a follower of the gods but I’ve always avoided debates, due to fear. But tonight I took a stand, and I won. I shut down their disrespect of gods and pointed out how they contradicted themselves to put my rebuttals into Christian light. I’ve never felt more proud in my life, and you are apart of the reason I found courage. So I writing as a thank you. Thank you for helping me find my courage
Heck yeah! I’m glad to hear it went well!
It is easy for us Christians to fall into the trap of believing we are the exclusive gatekeepers of knowledge, and it's a shame some of my religion aren't interested in learning about how other people see God (or whichever ones you reverence, I'm not sure).
⚔️⚒️🍻🌎✨️💖❤️
They hate when I start talking about the Old Testament 😂
Belief is like attempting a jigsaw when someone has stolen a piece and says they will return it when the puzzle is finished. You can't finish the puzzle until you have it and if you manage to finish the puzzle you don't need that piece anymore.
Philosophical Taoism revealed to me the curious strength that comes with holding one open to possibility; the world of the Mystic.
Holding reverence for life and awe towards it mysteries, this is the balance beam I walk. Patterns revel themselves over time; these patterns people name as Gods. I have learned to recognize, but not cling, to these energetic tapestries. It is only one Way.
A little off topic but I think you might enjoy reading 'the broken empire trilogy' starting with 'prince of thorns' and the following trilogy 'red queen's war' starting wit 'Prince of fools'. Second trilogy is my absolute favourite. Themes of possibility and a cracked reality.
Is it just me or is your beard looking extra omnipotent today?
Speaking of contradictory statements...
As opposed to omnipresent, in which case, the entire comment section would be arguing over whether or not we finally found bigfoot.
The beard could be omnipresent in the sense that you keep finding beard hairs in the bathroom, all over the house, in the car...
I always enjoyed seeking knowledge and the thought of uncertainty fascinates me.
Thank you for this. I will say, however, that when I was in seminary, my systematic theology prof told his class: "The opposite of faith is not doubt; the opposite of faith is certainty." That has guided me through my journey as an Anglican priest and a heathen.
beautifully done sir
As I always say, believe what you want to believe, because in the end we all find out the truth.
I think our approach to epistemology is shaped by our experience of power relations. Solipsism is really only tempting for example if you've been so consistently validated in believing in yourself, in seeing yourself as a being with agency, that the truth of it seems unquestionable.
For a variety of reasons I have the exact opposite problem. My experience of Christianity was variously abusive. My self was the LEAST valid source of knowledge - if it was part of my inner experience, not only did it not happen, it was also inherently bad. The version of the Christian God I'm most familiar with demanded total commitment to the invalidation and erasure of self as a prerequisite for a relationship. So now, on an emotional level, it is almost impossible for me to imagine a spirituality in which the human follower gets to have healthy boundaries.
Thus for me the knottiest problem is not "Can I know that gods exist?" but rather, "Can I form a valid judgment about whether or not gods can be trusted?"
Fun thought experiment on my home commute.
On "knowing" vs "believing:" Many of those who claim to "know" their religious orientation are simply working from conditioned belief. That conditioning is generations deep, if genetic memory is valid, thus it becomes difficult (though not impossible) to think about what is actually the "belief" in any other way than the certainty with which it's expressed. Although sometimes the expression is for the benefit of observers in the orbit of the believer rather than the believer themselves...they say such things to impress the world with their certainty. Ego does that to some.
I feel like I've always been a polytheist, even when I was growing up in a mostly monotheistic family. It's part of the baggage I carried at that time because one wasn't supposed to believe such things. But later down the road, it's what made the transition possible.
Do I believe in the gods? Well, yeah, though I won't offer with any certainty to explain them. I do have to admit though that a key factor in dropping my own monotheistic baggage was the "logic and rationale" of atheism....I just couldn't fully commit to disbelief. It helped assuage the "conditioned" belief (and genetic memory?) of hellfire and damnation; but didn't ultimately feel right to me.
There are lots of beliefs in the world (sus as that is) and I imagine the answer is hiding amongst the combination of them. I don't view one or another as being more or less valid. Rather, I see the variation of beliefs as what they are: cultural interpretations of that which we cannot fully know in the experience of life. I lean (nowadays) toward the Heathen version because it feels more at home for me than those of Eastern, Middle Eastern, or others. But even as I embrace my own gnosis, I don't claim to "know" anything. I don't think we're supposed to. I think the uncertainty is part of the test, so to speak. What we do with it is more germane to the life experience than whether this or that belief is valid.
I think solipsism also part of the equation, though admittedly I don't follow the concept closely. Consciousness seems to be an objective truth we all share (I assume this is what is referred to as "the mind), but from there it's all a matter of perception and interpretation of the same. The senses we use to experience life are more like filters - we don't perceive the full light, sound, kinetic, or olfactory spectrums...so yeah, there's much more to reality than we're able to perceive in our waking lives. Again, probably part of the equation.
Anyway, good presentation to get the brain waves going. No idea what the answer is, but I don't sweat not knowing it that much. Keeps life interesting.
Thanks for the interesting discussion. I absolutely think there's a lot of fault in placing so much importance on whether we "know" things with absolute unquestionable certainty. There are a lot of things we can never know for sure and I think if we block ourselves off from exploring and finding solace in things that we can't necessarily confirm in a certain, objective manner, then we're losing a lot of worthwile things by doing so (and I don't just mean spirituality! there are many things that fit under this).
Missed the live stream because of a late grocery trip, but I'll just say that it's good to see more exposition on polytheistic agnosticism.
Well said. In agreement with much of this.
How much do you think a person's personality influences what gods they gravitate to? Do you think that feeling of kinship with a god gives people a better sense of comfort than worshipping a god that is their polar opposite?
That would make a cool video
A very good " apparently" well thought out presentation! Good job...🤓!
I think, therefore I am confused, and am free to admit that!!! Lol!! Gonna have to watch/ listen a few more times to this.. try ...n let it sink in...
👍🐾🐺🧙♂️🐺🐾👍
🙊🙈🙉!!!!
Convince the solipist the world is real by telling them you can't truly know yourself.
Ocean, this is really well explained! I'm istening after a rough, bad'ish' day. I've a question, but first, I was thinking while you were talking about believing without knowing, Bill Maher has a segment called 'I can't prove it, but I know it's true' and it's pretty funny. I love the multi sus part! My question is probably really dumb, and I'm sure very suspicious! Fellow commenters may answer, hopefully charitably! So, what is the difference between pagan and heathen? 👍👏💝🥰✌
i pressed the like button because I wanted to pet the like button. the like button is now happy
Hi Ocean, I want to ask you something about spirits... So there was one moment of my life in which I saw a spirit. It was a no ordinary spirit, it was the spirit of arlequin, a female arlequin. I felt that it wasn't a wondering spirit, but a spirit of some kind of purpose, of which I can't be sure. It said my name, I don't know why, or maybe it sounded like that to me. So what can you say about this experience of mine, maybe share some information, or if you like give me an opinion!? Thank you in avance!
I really will apreciate if you give a comment on this expirience of mine!
We can’t. The universe operates exactly how we expect it to if there were no gods.
also do all of his vids usually have premieres queues?
Every time I try to think of a pun for the Gods, it almost not Freyr how strange they are. I guess I could make a joke that’s more Loki but that would be pretty Frigg-in stupid. I could Hodr along and try to make a better joke but as they say, the Thor the merrier.
This is horrible. I love it.
Hahaaaa I see what you did there 😄😄😐
Interested in some Krispy Freyrd Chicken?
Haha, I Ra-bsolutely love this!
@@ItsLucy_GD 😂 that’s Sūrtr-ly high praise. Thank you
As a pagan who is BOTH a former Catholic and a former atheist, this was a really interesting and well thought out video. I definitely feel like people try to be too "black and white" in these conversations. There can be so many subtle shades of gray that often get missed.
This is a common trend, isn’t it? Christian to atheist. Atheist to heathen. It was the same for me.
For me, it was just atheist to pagan I’m pretty glad I grew up in a non-Christian family.
@@aelfwealld No hate, but as a life long atheist I find this neopagan thing very cringe. Most people in there are former christians with traumas who dont actually believe in any of it.
@jonoc3729 how do you know they don't actually believe? Are u just making an assumption? (yes). A lot of former religious ppl have prayed to God and have gotten answers from pagan gods instead. I find a lot of you atheists are very similar to christians, same coin, opposite sides.
@@RED-my9hl God/gods dont exist. Most modern "pagans" are the same as satanists, former christians with church traumas.
I was also Christian, until I started to notice and take into account how my experiences were absent with the Christian god. So I went exploring. I got DEEP into mythologies and different cultures around the world, till one stuck with me and felt the most correct (which was Norse heathenism). My beliefs come from the experiences I had and continue to have with the gods, as I have always treated them with respect and love. Which in turn, they repay me with kindness as well; like family. I would even say that I attribute a lot of my happiness, success, and willingness to grow, to them. No matter what belief someone might have; I hope they find that same, or similar peace with themselves and the world around them. Much love
I took the same route and it brought me closer to Yahweh. In fact, I am still diving because there is so much that has been stolen by time and revolving propaganda machines.
Do not confuse the ways of men for the ways of gods. If you are clear headed, it is very easy to tell the two apart.
The problem, as I see it, is the very ridiculous notion that any Deity, or any one, can be boxed in. That every thing has to be One Way. Kinda like saying that everyone experiences everything the same way. But they do not.
Spoonfed spirituals don’t take the time to hunt for their nourishment. They spit out what lines they were fed and call it a day.
We have to Hunt for greater meaning. One could even say Cultivate. Or Weave. No matter the path, there must be effort to make peace with ourselves and the rest of Reality.
This is what I went through as well o searched for something that made me feel right and found it in north Paganism
This video is fire young man
Uh oh.
Love your show, Drew. Would also love it if you were to have Ocean on it! I would watch the hell outta that :D
?
One thing I often struggle with is determining what interpretations are right. If you have an indeterminate divine experience how do you know if it's from a monotheistic god, a polytheistic god, or if the experience itself was anything more than a misperception? This is the only thing that seems to keep me from belief in deities. I've had experiences I aould call religious, but they could have been one of many things.
Definitely something worth going into in a future video.
Maybe approach them with no preconception of what is a god and try to analyse the experience on its own.
You could seek a second opinion from someone known to have a gift of clarity. Or you could pray to the deity in question and ask them direct.
@@kellysouter4381 That is something I've wanted to do, but I am conflicted over. It might sound dumb but the deity I naturally identified as the cause is a Hindu deity. I was studying Hinduism at the time and have no idea if that influnced my perception. Even if I ignore that, I'm not sure how to go about praying to a deity that is still worshipped in a culture so culturally different than my own in a manner that is ethical. This might be over analysis on my part honestly
Honestly all relationships with a spiritual being are different. Humans perceive the world very differently from each other, so why wouldn't it be the same with the divine? I often see my deities in more human forms or I feel their presence. Some of my friends see them as images or in the world around them. There is no concrete interpretation of a deity because they are everything and nothing all at once. They are a part of your mind, a feeling, an event, even the universe itself. We cannot think truly of Gods because we are human. To see a God for everything it is wouldn't make sense. That's just my two cents, though. Your beliefs will be different from mine and be very unique. Explore them and come to your own conclusions.
I really enjoyed this video. This is something that I have thought about quite often. I came to the conclusion that, no, I cannot scientifically prove that the gods exist, but I choose to believe in them based upon experiences I have had. Others who have had different experiences may come to different conclusions. I have noticed that many atheists want to have absolute hard scientific proof and I just don't think that spirituality works like that. Great video!
How does this not boil down to "your truth" though? Meaning no truth. Or make believe. I recognize that may seem reductive but to my mind any person deciding to "believe" in their favorite flavor is dismissing every other flavor. And if you claim they all exist you lose me. It is so...so clear that we have created from whole cloth every story ever told. Why do we need the metaphysical. We have new religions born within generations that should stand as confidently on assertions like yours. I'm sure Mormonism and Scientology deserve that kind of respect, right?
@@Amrylin1337 I'm not understanding how all flavors exist and this is my favorite one/type is beyond you. I don't want to sound like a dick, but isn't this something that ppl do everyday and accept with actual flavors?
As an atheist, I think it's perfectly valid to choose to believe something based on the best interpretation of your own personal experience you can come up with, whether or not you can demonstrate it to anyone else. There are many things that we believe in that we actually can't demonstrate, about ourselves and the world. The only caveats I have is that most of the time I don't think the supernatural is the best interpretation of people's experiences even from the perspective of the person having the experience, and secondly, you can't explain other people to believe you if all you have is personal experiences.
@@Amrylin1337 My personal hierarchy of favorite flavors does not negate the existence of anyone else's and can't. I'd have to be elevated to the ultimate arbiter of flavors, which is patently absurd when considering the thousands of flavors out there. You also claim it's obvious humanity created the stories from whole cloth but fail to present any evidence for it. And really, why would it matter? We also created the scientific method, plastics, and chocolate from cacao beans. Humans create and develop things and ideas. It's part of our normal process of existence. I'm creating this comment as I type. If some of us created the gods as a means of explaining certain concepts, why do you care? Just don't follow them if that bothers you. My choice to interact with certain deities is exactly that. So long as I don't use my beliefs as a weapon against unbelievers, you cannot accurately judge me as problematic.
I have found if I treat the Gods as real divine beings, I get responses .....it works for me so I roll with it
Out of curiosity, what kind of responses do you get? Is it like hearing a voice or something. I'm an aspiring pagan so I'm still learning this stuff.
@@Matt-on4of dreams, just a feeling and the biggest one is things will line out for days that is more than just random chance
@@Matt-on4of I know the question was directed to someone else, but I think omens during rituals are pretty incredible sometimes… probably what ultimately transformed me into an animist / polytheist.
In my experience, deities express themselves in different ways, and I think is more believable when you don’t know how the deity will behave. You experience it first and find out later how is it that this deity expresses themselves to others, it often matches with what is supposed to happen.
One example for me is that I often get some amount of money in some unlikely manner after I feel the strong presence of a goddess associated with wealth and luck… It always happens 1 hour or 1 exact day after I feel that.
I don’t feel her strong presence in a lot of cases though, so I guess she doesn’t always choose to do something in the physical world.
@@thepeopleslibrary8673 I agree. One god that has smiled on me for a long time has done things like clear busy roads of traffic in a safe manner. Such as flipping the lights red out of turn. As a teen, his assistance was very useful in getting home. As an adult, I still appreciate it very much.
The old gods have simply kept me alive under circumstances that should have ended me. I view them as not really “ caring” at all about me personally but rather they get a kick out of allowing
“ the game” of my life life to continue because I acknowledges them and do not ask unreasonable things lol.
The first time I ever tried to contact the gods in any capacity was when I was trying to talk to Vör for guidance. I was completely ignorant of heathen practices and I used a meditation where I was supposed to envision a garden space where I could talk to her. The entire thing felt forced, but at the end I do think I had a breakthrough because I was hit with a message so clearly that I can’t attribute it to anything else.
You wanna know what she said?
“This garden is bullshit.”
And I have taken that with me as a lesson. It was everything I needed to hear.
The first thing I had to accept as I started moving away from Christianity and into polytheism was that regardless of where I ended up absolute proof did not exist, so the best I could do was find something that was real to me through experience and was something I wanted to participate in and go from there. The Christian god is real to me even now because of the experiences I had, but so are other gods. Christianity has hurt me in ways that polytheist spaces have not, and so I'm still debating whether or not Christianity or their god will be a part of my practice. One of the best things polytheism ever taught me is that I can believe in a god and still choose not to worship them or engage with them.
I'm in a similar place religiously, though I identify as a monolatrist Christian (I actively worship the Christian God, but believe that others exist as well.) I probably would have wound up being more alienated by Christianity if it weren't for my mother's family's very casual non-dogmatic brand of it, which is what my own practice follows. Basically we operate under the assumption that at the end of the day God just wants people to behave in a kind and just manner, and doesn't really care that much about things like actually attending church, exact interpretations of the bible, or whether you actually even worship him or not. We've all had experiences we attribute to the Christian God, and assume that if he disapproved of our stance he would have given up on us long ago, but obviously we won't know for sure until we're dead. Meanwhile, the other side of my family is Church of Christ, spent a decent amount of my childhood trying to convert me, most of my parent's marriage trying to convert my mom when they weren't bullying her, and generally dismissing all of us as dinosaur-believing pagans (anyone not Church of Christ is pagan according to them, regardless of their actual beliefs.) Which has been my experience with a lot of other Christians too, unfortunately, which is why I tend to gravitate more towards polytheistic or agnostic circles as well...too many Christians scare me...
Exactly! Nice to know other people feel the same
Isn't it a false dilemma when you interpret certain spiritual experiences as either nothing or the god you're psychologically/culturally predisposed to?
@@friendlyjester8482 I suppose so, but at the end of the day all I have to work with are my experiences and limited knowledge. The things I believe in may not be true, and I don't want anyone to take my experiences as evidence for them to be true, but as long as wherever I land spiritually isn't harmful to myself or others and it continues to be fulfilling to me I'm alright with not being perfectly intellectually diligent. I could be misinterpreting my own experiences based on my biases, and that's a risk that's always going to be there. I will never know for sure and I'm okay with that.
I'm a bit tired so my head isn't exactly very clear or focused, but I hope this helps and makes sense. I found your reply to be a pretty interesting one to think about, even if my brain isn't at its best at the moment.
It's really interesting watching your discussion as an atheist, and agreeing with a lot of what you're saying. I'm a fan of the notion of "practicality" when it comes to belief and knowledge: if it seems to be true now, and I can use it to make predictions about the future, then I should assume it is true; doing otherwise is impractical. I think this ties into what you said at the end about "exploring ideas" and solipsism. I can recognize that I do not know for certain anything except that I exist in some fashion, but proceed with my life and my observation of the world as if everything that *appears* to exist, *does.* It's more interesting that way anyways.
As for your earlier comments... I think there is an important point to be made that I don't think you touched on (unless I missed it). The Bible, and other texts/records from history like it, are good things to examine from a historical perspective. They are, after all, talking about *history,* and trying to use scientific methods to examine history is... just not applicable (like, imagine trying to use the scientific method to figure out specific details of what happened during the American Civil War! You'd reach the "experimentation" phase and realize that you've nothing to experiment with). However, many of these books do make scientific *claims.* By way of an example, the Bible claims that God turned Lot's wife into a pillar of salt. The discussion of whether or not this, or a similar event, actually *happened* is a historical thing, and would involve cross-referencing other resources to see if we could determine one way or the other if anything even vaguely resembling this event likely took place. The question of whether or not it is even possible for a human to *be* spontaneously turned into a pillar of salt, however, is a scientific one. And is a rather extraordinary claim, too; taking our bodies, mostly composed of carbon, hydrogen, and oxygen, and rapidly transforming those elements into mostly sodium and chloride, would be a process that had never been seen before! At least, not at a time where we could actually make detailed and easily verifiable recordings of the phenomenon. Thus, the *historical* examination of the event is colored by the *scientific* observation that such an event seems *highly* unlikely; as historical examinations try to find out what event *most likely* took place, the historian must then mark that event as improbable, and find more historical evidence than usual before proposing it as historical fact.
I dunno, it seemed worth pointing out. Seriously though, it was really gratifying to hear someone talk about how they look at the world in a way similar to my own... you just have seen/do see patterns that indicate to you that deities exist, and I never have. Thus, one of us lives assuming that they do, and the other assuming that they do not. I do kind of wonder if I would have come to the same conclusions as you had I experienced what you had, differing perspectives and all.
WOW that was long. And I doubt almost anybody will see it (I dunno how many of your comments you actually read LOL) but it was nice to get out at least o3o
(to add a tl;dr: it's cool to see another person who looks at "when should we act as though things exist" in a very similar way to myself, and sometimes historical documents make extraordinary scientific claims, and when they do that colors how historically accurate we may consider them because historians look for what events seem *most* likely to have happened)
Long but brought in a lot of good points that I agree with. I'm a fan of the historical method, which often utilizes inferences to the best explanation (which is where, as you gave a good example, science can aid us in understanding history), which would mean understanding the mechanism by which events took place. This is why we don't include the actions of deities, at least as credited to those deities, in our established historical narrative, because we don't understand the mechanisms by which they interact with the world. We can, however, include the attestations that people make to them so that we can note for further examinations by those interested in those claims as they explore the subject for themselves.
@@OceanKeltoi WOAH you actually saw what I said, that's kewl (legit have never had a human on the youtube part of the internet say anything to me so like... exciting)
And yeah! Hadn't thought about personal examinations, but that definitely makes sense. Especially when the topic itself is so tied to personal experience; having those resources so people can bounce what happened to them off of what stories are left from the past would be very helpful.
This definitely speaks to my post-Catholic experience. I decided that if we can't know which deity is the "right" one, why play the guessing game? I've been in limbo (agnosticism, I guess?), for the last 22 years as a result. I still think there may be a higher power, but the whole thing overwhelms my ADHD-addled brain.
Christianity is a no-go, and having lived through its lens for so long makes looking outside quite difficult. This is one of the biggest reasons I appreciate your viewpoints, Ocean. They give me hope that perhaps I'll find a new home someday. I really want to, but the fog is thick (and Leon's getting larger!).
I am the wisest man alive, for I know one thing, and that is that I know nothing. Socrates
But, I do “believe” that I “know” some things, yet those may be disproven or disputed at any time. Good video!
As someone who does theoretical science, hardcore empiricism frustrates the ever living hell out of me. So many people don't seem to understand that science deals in *models* of reality, not Truth. Great video, Ocean!
Predicting observable reality to be specific, but what do you mean by truth? Logical statements derived from axioms like in math?
👏👏
As a fellow scientist I agree, that when Reddit Atheists insist on "science being the path to truth" I feel nauseous, because in our framework/"philosophy" truth is an idealist, unpragmatic and problematic concept. They took the general statements from educators and scientists which go something like "science is the best thing we have to ensure our knowledge about our world is correct" (which I interpret as, OK science is the least wrong in its approach, but that doesn't mean there is any special well of knowledge we are hiding) to mean "science is the only way to deal with truth". This is such a huge leap in claims and implications that I always get a bitter taste in my mouth from it.
@@varany3376I'm just a student in chemistry, so I'm not going to talk like I'm a valid scientist, but your comment is exactly the way I think, and I really appreciate reading it.
I firmly believe in science as a good approach to understand the world around us, to understand ourselves, but I think that's just one part of the experience, and that ignoring the other aspects of our lives, our beliefs, experiences, and thoughts because of being "non empirical" misses the point of searching for "truth". Even though, as it has been said, "truth" is vague, and it's an ideal that we try to get close to. I believe science is just a part of the experience of "seeking truth" not the whole experience itself. Hope that makes sense.
I really like this video since this is the question I struggle the most with and I've convinced myself before that either I don't exist or I'm the only thing that exists..... but I've learned to not think about that part too much so we good
I love learning about the gods!! It's like there is always something new to learn !!
And here I deadass thought that this was going to be a video of Ocean just tripping balls on DMT
Who says i'm not?
@@OceanKeltoi I guess it's impossible to know for certain..
@@OceanKeltoi now im imagining you on old school joe rogan, new joe rogan would be… interesting as well.
13:08 thank you for mentioning this. Almost EVERYONE I run into in the online occult world would rather believe in pseudoscience then admit that science can be correct. There’s a massive massive dislike if not hatred towards science. It’s ridiculous.
You don't get it, we need to take the Lovecraftian approach. All our "sciences" are the comfortable lie we tell ourselves to make sense of a senseless world!
/s
Huh. I have not encountered this often. Personally I think science is super important however I do think it’s missing something.
I have ran into anti med pagans so much, those that refuse modern medicine
@@sorayatorchic it’s not like people will just blatantly say since is a lie. Instead they pretty much only ever mention science if they are talking shit about it. And then get upset if I ever point that out. And in my experience if all you do is criticize something then you clearly really really dislike it.
No offense but your response here was an example of that. You don’t see a dislike of science in the pagan community…but you’re very happy to criticize it?
That’s pretty much the same in my opinion as just saying you don’t like it. And yes people use the idea of science to try and disprove your beliefs. But the community at large has decided that this means the only time science can be talked about is when your criticizing or just outright shitting on it.
That’s not too far removed from calling belief in science scientisim and just joining the extreme conspiracy theorists in believing anything no matter what.
I don't understand this.
I use science daily at my job . Then again I work as a Veterinary Technician at a Zoo. Everyone at my job knows that I am Pagan and they don't care because I have been a Vet Tech for about 3 decades now. So they are aware I know what I am doing.
To quote Einar Selvik from Wardruna "the gods are representatives of various aspects of both humans and nature" *drop mic*
This made me think of the time I believed I had to make a connection with the gods in order to believe in them, or really BE a spiritual person. I still can’t say if I’ve ever received a “sign” from the gods or have felt their presence. As awesome as that would be, I’ve realized that’s not the most important part of my spiritual journey.
I'm at the part of the video where you describe how we know things. I really like this open. I'm someone who wants to believe in gods but I'm deeply agnostic. I have had experiences that keep me going with my practice to one extent or another, but I also find myself doubting the meaning of those experiences enough that I hesitate to call myself a believer. I wouldn't call myself an atheopagan, but I don't think I fall strictly into the theistic camp either. That being said even with my half-faith I feel a deep connection to the gods even if I don't have the confidence to say I believe in the gods. Its an odd feeling.
I actually know exactly what you mean and what I loved most about this man's thoughts is that he was letting us know it is perfectly fine..no...great even!- to embrace that ambiguity and uncertainty whether you believe or not. Actually what he said reminds me a lot about other important things in life some of which you'll hear people talk about in the world of therapy too. Last night I was watching the latest episode of a well loved show called 'The Boys' which delved into the same type of uncertainty within our current ideals of 'masculinity' and how trying to artificially force certainty into it just leads to more suffering and greater insecurity in the end.
The exact same thing has been happening to me, so let me teach you this phrase: "What can't be answered by your brain, can sometimes be answered by your heart"
And despite my rather agnostic views, I still practice my religion and worship my Gods, so I guess you can too!
I am an ex Muslim atheist who studied biology. How many stereotypes do I cross off? Yes I've experienced a little bit of the frustration early on in my spiritual exploration to find difficulties in communicating with those who believe differently than I. I've no come to appreciate and even love religions of different kinds as well as other spiritual disciplines for what they may offer especially in the idea that others believing differently than I do can offer such Rich Variety in perspective on the world. I no longer think it it's sad that others think differently than I.
Only two minutes in, I just want to note that I'm an epistemic anti-realist or philosophical agnostic. I don't think truth exists or if it does humans don't have access to it. This has been a big step towards me respecting other perspectives and also to my personal happiness because trying to find truth is exhausting in the same way that trying constantly to stick your tongue to the back of your head would be.
I finally have a word for my belief that absolute truth is inaccessible to the human mind if it even exists at all.
In chaos magick this is really important as the practice suggests that you try out switching different belief systems and paradigms to see their effects and how can they be used in your advantage.
This was such a great listen and helped me clarify some things I don't always know how to put into words regarding my own slow transition from being a hardcore atheist edgelord to actually believing in some ancient gods even if just a little bit nowadays. With that said I still believe the best thing for society is for church and state to remain strictly separate and for us to try and base our policies on science first because it's the closest thing we currently have to 'objectivity', but for our personal lives I really like this approach of spiritual belief as something to explore and grow with, without that requiring us to dogmatically 'believe' the same way Christians would. Instead you can explore and experiment and 'believe' at the same time. Which is basically what I have done with the polytheist faiths, and rather than what the Christians would say about that somehow being a sign of 'weakness' for polytheism I actually view it as not only a huge strength, but just something that is healthier for followers in general. That you're free to explore before making this huge commitment, and free to leave if it turns out to not be compatible in the end, and that you're allowed to be comfortable with the inescapable greyness that comes with existence, and still be empowered to do your best with it all anyway. As for me I also came to convene with the Gods more often when I had unlikely personal experiences with them that made me want to get to know them better and make them a part of my life more. I don't want to convert anyone just based on that. I view at as personal to me and if anyone is curious I'll talk to them but that is it. Since coming to the realizations I have though I always viewed it more as something I'm exploring and building a relationship with the same way I would a new friend and it's hard to get that nuance across to people raised in a culture where they are taught that nuance and uncertainty are mutually exclusive with friendship, belief, or strength! And that is what I love about polytheism so much is that there IS room for that nuance in our spiritual practice!
Ocean talking philosophy makes me wish he would do a speaking tour.
I was having a bit of Christian leftover anxiety over my lack of being able to, like, scientifically verify the god’s’ existence. Thank you very much for this video; it helped me realize how much of my anxiety is just hanging on from my previous religion and that I really don’t need to worry about it in that way. Questioning things is actually ok now! :)
*Re: Solipsism*
I took a Philosophy class about a month or two ago now, and your section on solipsism called to mind reading Descartes' Meditations.
I could never roll with the idea that imperfect senses required their dismissal as a whole. That seems to be an extreme measure, in my mind. I think the more reasonable assumption is that of damage or poor conditions causing these issues, rather than a malevolent force/demon deceiving a person by providing these senses.
Also, I think the idea of two solipsists conversing is just bloody hilarious. It would seem to me that, eventually, they would both come to think the other is _sus._ It sounds like the ultimate form of egotism to only recognize oneself as "real."
This is why when we get into this conversation about senses and the external world, I'm much more partial to ideas like Idealism than solipsism.
really digging this redux
Absolutely loved this topic. Thank you so much for taking the time.
I find so many other videos on mono/a/polytheism to feel, as you said, dogmatic. They prop up things using holy scripture as all the proof they need, they prop up things using hard science and logic like a cudgel, the prop up things with the fluffiest of bunnies and mind-numbing leaps in their thinking. I had never realized it before, but I do believe it is due to something latent they are carrying around. When I dropped out of my very loose and casual hold of Christianity and felt the pulling of the gods, part of the reason I gravitated toward the Norse pantheon was the fact that so little remains of "official knowledge" and much of what we have to pull from has been whitewashed heavily by Christianity that I would pretty much be FORCED to blaze my own trail to get to know these deities. In doing so, I would have to be honest with myself. I would have to know that I don't REALLy know, and that not knowing is OK. The gods get along just fine without me. They don't need me to sing praises to exist. I hope they dig my cat purr of fancy libations poured in their honor as I clumsily fumble my way through what might pass as a prayer and know that I'm doing my damnedest to show that I am earnestly reaching out to make a connection. Not "knowing" is the most refreshing aspect of my spiritual journey. I've never felt so unburdened in my life.
Thanks again for such an insightful and useful video. It really helps fresh Heathens like myself to navigate this brave new...er, old world.
This one ought to be good. May Odin and Dionysos inspire you!
Hey man - one of your unicorn Catholic viewers here as I've mentioned before. Love the shit out of this video and the discussion of epistemology. Really enjoying seeing my own perspectives reflected in other faiths.
Hello unicorn friend
The old adage “you don’t know what you don’t know” feels appropriate. This is a reach, but I realized fairly recently that I can stop overreacting to certain things with my son (who is now 12) because he simply doesn’t carry the same baggage and associations (and subsequent reactions to) that I do around said thing; UNLESS I GIVE IT TO HIM! 🤣 And thus I had a mind blown moment of “we teach what we pass on.”
I liked the brief mention of gender identity in there because this is something I've run into far more often than I should have to among other atheists (and is one of the reasons I avoid atheist communities and hate a lot of terminally online debater atheists).
Cause I'm a trans woman. I am more certain about that than I am about anything else in my life. Even if the reality we experienced were a complete illusion I would still know I'm a woman.
And it is literally impossible for me to prove that conclusively to anyone because it is entirely based on personal experience that only exists within my brain. I've even brought that up a couple of times when challenging atheists on their complete dismissal of personal experience. And I usually get one of two responses: either they deny the existence of trans people entirely and say social sciences are garbage, or they argue I can prove it to others. The latter is the more interesting but it is still wrong.
Because nothing I do can prove to another person I'm trans. Some will argue "well you can get diagnosed with gender dysphoria by a specialist." Sure, but what if I'm faking it? Or what if I'm just depressed and get misdiagnosed? Ironically the reverse of that happened when my dysphoria was misdiagnosed as depression for years. Point is it's not conclusive proof.
"Well you can go on hormones or get surgery or otherwise transition in some way." Sure, but I could still be faking it. Maybe I just like estrogen. Maybe I'm just such a big fan of boobs I've decided to grow some.
There's plenty of things I can do that indicate I'm probably trans, and we generally accept that people who engage in these things and who describe their experience in ways x, y, and z are usually trans.
So we roll with it. But I can never conclusively prove it to anyone else. I can't even expose them to the experiences that led to me figuring it out beyond just explaining it. They'll never feel it. They'll never live it. But I'm still trans whether they want to believe it or not. Whether I can meet their arbitrary standards of evidence or not.
I carried way to much of my Atheistic mindset into my belief in Native American religion. As far as I'm concerned, I've had personal experience from a place completely devoid of previous knowledge that proves to me, personally, that the spirits are real, but I do not consider myself subservient to anything, I do believe all our myths & stories are 100% made up by people, excepting the ones actually meant to be based upon real history, at every point where there is a disagreement with what science me when dealing with this world, I choose science & I don't feel the need to prove anything to anyone. It kind of makes me have a little less respect respect someone if they just believe everything I say without question, even when it seems to contradict reality. Despite some of them being kind of asinine, coming from a place of thinking all religion is about control, Atheism is a fairly noble & perfectly normal stance to take & I'd be happier being in a room of Atheists than a room of Christians most days.
I do have to agree with the take on 'certainty'. So often in debates do I see a demand not only for showing a position is likely the case but that it is certainly the case. I just don't get why so many people seem to have a different epistemological standard when it comes to different topics or methods of discussion/debate. I mean, having a stricter standard when trying to find out what is certainly the case (like in science, court trials, etc.) is helpful for those particular goals, but in daily life this standard is usually only brought up on a certain subset of topics that usually there is some level of emotional investment in (like the god(s) debate).
That duckie in the background is sus lol
Thats my comment on this intellectual video 😂
Those aren't puns, they're dad jokes.
The gods communicate with us through coincidence and once we start to notice these convenient circumstances (small miracles) the existence of the gods, and thier intervention is undeniable.
As an atheist stuff like this is so interesting to listen about.
I cant be certain but i think this was another gem.
Great video, interesting topic. So In the end ocean believes his experiences because that’s really all anyone has to work with. Their personal experiences.
There's a little more to it than that, but I'll be going into it over the course of later videos.
For me the cementing experience with the Gods is the very real and very shared experience among us of spiritual exhaustion after interacting with them. Intense sobbing (joyful), shaking, exhaustion, exuberant euphoria all wrapped up in one. An more importantly, is discovering it first on my own then talking about it and finding many others have experienced the same with different deities, thought I do recommend Freyja. ;)
SPG is, if you'll excuse the phrase, a godsend. I wouldn't have expected someone who didn't have my background to have experiences with Skaði that lined up so well with my own, but I've found that to be exactly the case.
Loved the "sus" clip. It was truly beautiful.
I've always viewed science as the study of the natural world and arcana as the study of the supernatural world, two sides of the same coin. If humans are ever to improve, I believe it is key to understand both the material and spiritual worlds.
Great video btw
It's funny, alot of early scientists were very open to this, Freud, Curie, etc.
This is not entirely accurate. If there was a way to study the supernatural world, then studying the supernatural world would also be science. This is a flaw I've seen in some obscure Christian apologetics.
Specifically, there's currently three broad domains under science, as there are three studiable regions that have been discovered. Mathematical science, natural science, and social science, itself a subset of natural science.
@@warrendriscoll350 Not quite. Science is based on the scientific method which relies on natural behaviors and rules we observe in the physical world. These rules aren't as simple or consistent with the supernatural, as there are too many unknown variables to be able to consistently experiment and thus you can't research it as you would other forms of science
@@TheBitingBat The scientific method does not rely on natural behaviour. It relies on empirical philosophy. If you are referring to the laws of physics as rules, those are the products of observation, not the source of observation.
@@warrendriscoll350 well science as a whole relies on the principle that if you do the same exact experiment 100 times you will get the same result every time. The supernatural doesn't work that way, it is by it's very nature impossible to accurately replacate consistent because supernatural forces are perpetually shifting and don't follow strict rules like things in our physical world do. Even quantum physics at least follows logical empirical rules that you can prove with consistency. That's why I don't limit myself to only science to explain the supernatural or preternatural. I use science and other forms knowledge in my pursuit of understanding for this very reason.
I have been wishing for a true spiritual experience for all my life, and never had I had one that I have not felt like I was stretching to fit what I wanted to believe, at least until I had a dream featuring Thor. And of course by that I don’t mean Chris Hemsworth but a man that my brain simply processed as “Thor”. He healed multiple cuts that I had had all over my left hand, and then was following me on a wooded path. That’s all I remember. I don’t think Thor is a god of healing, but hey he is known for protecting humans.
Anyway it surprised me as I had no real explanation as to why I would dream something like this. I had been studying Norse related things for a while, but 1. They were mainly related to the Havamal and Odin, not Thor, 2. It just didn’t feel right for me to chalk it up to “I’ve been studying things related to this therefore that is why I dreamed of it therefore it has no meaning”
But yeah. I was raised as a Christian for most of my life and I have never had an experience that I can confidently say was Yahweh, Satan, or any other Christian deity. So I just found that interesting.
There is some association with Thor and healing. I’ve seen a bit of shared personal experiences relating to that. So your dream would have consistency with that.
What Tool Album is this
Uh oh beware the Alex Grey esque fractal art and kool aid pushers who advocate for some woke commie BS like “ shadow work “ in order to commune with the gods.
To understand how Polyethism declined and how Christianity rose, I think studying Constantine and how Polytheism declined is a very vital subject to understanding this very fundamental question your video suggests.
Also, the reason for how early Christianity rose in Europe is key. There was an incident I remember in Pagan Germania were two priests came to this Holy Tree of Wodan or some God. I can't remember. One of them struck the tree loudly proclaiming that they would strike the tree and challenged that pagan God to be struck by lightning. Nothing came as the priest struck the tree. Quite an interesting story but I'd love to see you make a video about this topic.
The more I hear, the more I learn! Thank you for being out here for us newbies to Heathanry.
Thank you so much for this video. I think you were fairly thorough, and at a level that is fairly easy to interact with. This provides a good baseline for future discussions. Just a few things that I would like to add, though much of my thinking on epistemology is a work in progress.
1. I think there is a deeper reason behind the dogmatic approach to knowledge than Christian influence. While not going as far as the solipsist, we can consider the justified true belief definition of knowledge (for example), which is prechrisitian in origin. Under this framework, I might not be able to prove my knowledge, but it must be true first - meaning two who hold contradictory beliefs would not both be capable of knowledge.
2. On the other hand, knowledge must be able to exist at least in some sense, as we could experience no phenomenon of it otherwise. Certainly it may be a construct of mind, as the solipsist would argue, but then it exists in the mind. This should not be confused with the notion that any experience of knowledge necessarily IS knowledge, however.
3. Epistemology seems to be mutually derivable with logic. That is, when I have a valid argument, I have knowledge that the conclusion will follow from the premises if the premises are true. One may claim that this depends on the rules or logic, but it as much depends on the definition of knowledge. I suspect that any agreed upon rules for logic are tautological with a definition of knowledge. There’s a lot more that can be said on this, but I don’t want to write a thesis in a TH-cam comment, and I think others would prefer I don’t attempt so either.
So, I think we are tempted to generalize our concepts of knowledge to apply beyond conclusions drawn from valid arguments, when really it should be better treated as an exercise in consistency. None of this contradicts what you have said, in my mind - I just saw an opportunity to share some thoughts on this subject as it has been on my mind quite a bit lately. Cheers.
The solipsist is not the only one that would argue that knowledge exists only in the mind. If knowledge is a type of belief, we already know it only exists in the mind, unless you can point to a non mind holding belief anywhere.
@@warrendriscoll350 apologies for a delayed response, I didn’t get a notification. What I mean by knowledge as a construct of the mind is, that as a phenomenon it is strictly the sensation - that there is knowledge when it “seems” like there is knowledge, because truth itself is only a quality of mind (because everything is a quality of mind). This line of reasoning is uniquely solipsistic.
I've never specifically held Christian or monotheistic beliefs but was raised in a household where it became increasingly prevalent and, honestly, kind of aggressive. Of course, some of the concepts rubbed off on me, like you must KNOW or you are WRONG, and had led to some pretty extreme arguments with family. As I've grown and gained more lived experience, though, I've come to the wonderful conclusion that no one can really know and honestly I don't care anymore! As you said, there's a few billion of us, one of us might be right, or not! Personally I've come to the thought/counter argument of "There are 8 billion people and counting, what is the chance of ONE person having it all right?"
It has relaxed me so much and made me much more open to exploration and learning of so many things. It also leads to delightful confusion when someone says they know something for certain and I reply without much argument or rebuttal (when appropriate, some things still get shot down HARD).
Great video and I have a feeling you just really like saying sus :P
I find your channel incredibly fascinating as an atheist, but i do have a few questions:
- Do you make a claim of religious exclusivity? Or do other pantheons exist? In your most recent video you said that the Greeks called (insert overly complicated norse name) Chaos. Do you believe that the Greek Gods are just primitive, proto-forms of the Norse ones which later europeans were able to better understand? Or are the Hellenic and Norse traditions equally valid? I was actually a hellenic polytheist for a few years, and i've felt the same "Connection" to my Gods. I poured out libations to Zeus and Athena and asked questions and made pleas, receiving answers the following day. I burned incense for Hermes and traveled safely. I prayed to Poseidon and successfully operated a ship when i was young (Though, in hindsight, it was probably in autopilot and the captain was just letting me fuck with the wheel)
- How do you feel about the portrayal of your gods in media? Christians flip their shit when Jesus isn't depicted as a chestnut-haired, blue-eyed, white european dude. Muslims attack people when Muhammad is depicted at all. But your gods, as well as my old ones, are getting decapitated by Kratos and Gorr the God Butcher. Does this bother you at all?
- What happens to non-believers? Do you make the same claim of "Follow me or my god(s) will hurt you" like the Christians do?
- Do you intend to die a warrior's death to enter Valhalla at some point, or do you think that Odin is subbed to your youtube channel and he'll let you in? And beyond that, do you believe in a literal ragnarok?
I mean no disrespect with these questions, i know they might sound rude, but i am asking them genuinely
Objective experience is a synthesis of two or more shared subjective experiences. When a hundred people share an experience of an apparition of the holy virgin, that is objective. How you interpret that experience is another issue. Knowledge is the false Sefirot. It must be judged by understanding and wisdom which come from "above" while data and information come from "below" (see Tree of Life diagram). Experience overrides belief. I do not believe in my car; I experience my car. What goes for cars, goes for spirits and gods (and magick). Of course, you can stick your fingers in your ears and close your eyes shouting nah, nah, nah, and believe what you want. It just inhibits life. Everything becomes a meaningless accident regardless of the measurability of meaning.
As someone questioning their beliefs, this video was a large comfort to me. I completely feel the "dogmatic pressure". I want to explore and experiement- currently I still believe the Abrahamic God is the center of everything, but I am starting to believe that other gods and spirits are manifestations of that source, and we are all parts of that source, and praise of other gods is a praise of that personality and aspect of the source. and yet, I feel an intense pressure to be right, to not be straying from what's "correct". and it's a great comfort to recognize that not only is that not realistic, but it is okay to branch into ideas based on your experiences. it's a hard road to travel, though
I love how acting with knowledge is “putting the cart before the horse”. If this is your philosophy you’re deluding yourself. Everyone acts on knowledge. Beliefs come from knowledge. The idea of gods making lightning came after humans gained the knowledge through sight that lightning occurred.
Well I'm not gonna talk about solipsism. But anyway. Here is my theory about the gods:
Okey so, it's fairly reasonable to say that our consciousness is the result of electrical impulses interacting with each other inside our brains, they do that through connections that the neurons provide. Now, are those connections exclusive to physicality or are they possible without physical connections (aka neurons)? Using only energy? Or even non-solid materials?
Assuming that it is, it would only be possible with a ton of energy. What would have that amount of energy then? Well the sun is a literal giant ducking reactor. What about the Earth's core? That also has a lot of thermal energy as well as kinetic energy. What about the moon's core? What about Jupiter's core? What about Mars's core?
That would explain a lot of civilizations worshiping the sun as a god, or even the earth.
Again that's just a theory that I have that makes sense to me.
So, beliefs are a weird thing. I'd been an atheist most my life after a bad experience in church. I, however, was jealous of those who had religion. This big stupid smiles on their faces, I want that. I read a lot on different beliefs, in my research I became friends with a bunch of witches. I still didn't believe and it was hard for me, until I forced myself. HOW? Well, I thought is it possible to believe something you don't have witness to, or knowledge that directly contradicts. Yes, and we all do it. Denial, so I convinced myself, denied my lack of belief, gave myself fully to Norse paganism, and practiced rituals. I've seen things, experienced things, things that solidified my beliefs. I don't believe this is a Norse only deal, no, I believe there are maybe thousands of forgotten gods out there, just waiting for someone to believe. I've been seanchan, thank you for reading 😉
I'd be interested to hear what experiences have led you to believe in the existence of gods. In all my life, I've never seen anything that suggests that any kind of deity exists, or even that they MIGHT. I've also never seen anything suggesting they don't exist, of course, but there's just never been a compelling reason for me to believe in any gods, so I don't. Even when I'm merely assuming something to be true, I at least need some reasons to assume it in the first place, and when it comes to gods I haven't yet come across any. I'm very interested in the topic, however, and in hearing the experiences of others as to how they came to believe what they do. Sadly, most of the people I've discussed this with IRL were of the 'the Bible says so therefore it's true' variety, so I never really got anywhere.
I hope to see more about this. I'd love to see a open debate about the subject matter!
In my experiences I have came to the conclusion that the Gods exist. They are the energies of the universe and all aspects of life and death and everything in between. We give them names so we can more easily connect with them. Also I have noticed my beliefs coincide with science. Science has proven that lightning and thunder comes from a culmination of the earth and sky. Negative and positive charged ions cause a spark and loud crack. Thor was born of a sky god and an earth giantess (Odin and Jord).
After a long and hot summer, I once presented an offering to Thor on the first rain. I stated the one intention I wanted from the offering: to show by some means that the gods exist. I made homemade bread, poured some vodka, and made a sort of alter by a tree. I now have that area designated to at-home offerings. On this day, I also lit 2 candles and an inscent and presented my offerings. I almost felt the present of Thor whom I set out to thank and question. I said some words and asked in this way “I present these offering for one reason, I would like you to show that you exist”. I’ve done this with the Christian god and some other religions to no avail. Here however it started to lightly sprinkle and the wind picked up for several seconds. I asked 3 or 4 times and every time on request, the wind picked up and a sprinkle started. This was the first time by request that a god had ever been willing to present proof of their existance to me, and allowed me to turn from verging atheist to Norse paganism. This was the thing that drew me from not believing in god(s) to believing after trial in the only gods I ever got a response to. It was one of the best experiences, and my first time attempting and offering. This started my journey into Norse paganism which I try to learn more about periodically. Your channel and even TH-camrs like the wisdom of Odin(which I saw your video on and do see your point. He still helped me get started though) helped me to go upon the new journey I find myself in. Keep up the good work, this channel is extremely useful and still entertaining and helps me learn more and more deeply the new faith I find myself in.
I struggle with belief in gods. One of the reasons I left Christianity was because I find it hard to believe in an actual, sentient entity outside of our reality yet interacting with it, especially one that is omnipotent and omnibenevolent. So the concept of multiple sentient entities interacting with our reality, even without the omnipotence, is hard for me to accept.
However, I do believe that consciousness is WAY too complex for it to simply be a result of electrical synapses firing in your brain. The concept of our brains actually being receivers and filters of consciousness, rather than creators of it, just seems to jive better for me. So then, where do thoughts come from? What is the source of that signal our brain receives and filters through our own ego and experience?
Maybe the different gods are the names we give to whomever it seems sends us those thoughts that don't seem to be our own. Maybe they're personifications of archetypes buried in our collective psyche. In that case, are they functionally different than actual, sentient entities outside of our reality yet interacting with it?
I don't know. But I do know that I feel drawn to these particular set of gods, spirit, and worldview. And I'm ok with exploring what the hell that means.
So glad I watched this again.
Thank you Ocean, as my current experience aligns with non belief it is the view I currently hold but I can see the wisdom that everyone is having to explore and make judgement calls on the fly. Any one side or group thinking they have an unquestionable Truth has become a red flag for me since leaving christianity and can see where bits of that thinking kind of take up space in the back of atheists, pagans, and others who have continued exploring outside of their previous beliefs. The last thought I had after watching was I expect this kind of feeling may be an intentional process built into some beliefs to try and make it harder for someone to want to explore in the fear that they would leave their original beliefs. I hope through your talks and others more and more of us can see our way to honest exploration.
To be honest if we knew the gods where real is it still faith? To say i am uncertain that the gods are real but i choose to place my faith in them that is what makes it faith.
I have experienced this so this strengthens my faith is what makes me believe in the gods. When i make a offer to Thor and ask him to watch over someone. I put my faith in him to do what i cannot do at that moment. And to this day she is safe and i thank Thor for it.
I think it was Red. I saw him on the bookshelf just staring at a rubber ducky, really sus ...
The exploration is what I love most about my religion.
Try this one. Existence does not exist. We are processes living in a world that is a process. We and the world around us are always Becoming something else and in constant motion. Nothing stands still and therefore does not exist. The only motionless process in the universe is light for which, time is all motion and no change.
What if I were to tell you that we are all both right and wrong at the same time?....maybe....
yes, this was a good video, or so I do believe.
Thank you for the section on fluffy bunnies, that's something that kept me away from paganism for a long time
woah woah woah, "brain in a vat"? not until you prove the absolutely certain existence of brains and vats!
I refuse to comment just because you asked, oh wait, fuck.
Really enjoyed this video!! Love the clips and that school of thought is on my list of things to read about so it is nice to see that mentioned in this video lol
What school of thought? Empericism?
I didnt think polytheism was possible when I became distant with Christiananity, and after while I was agnostic wanting to belive in something but had the baggage of not wanting to choose "the wrong one" but after one of your videos I came to the realization that in my opinion there isn't one universal truth but many and its up to the individual to find which one best suits them is basic crude terms my friend puts it in its boring not to believe in something, so why not believe what you want. Which I agree with mostly except that replace "what u want" with what feels right. Let Me know how you guys feel about this stand point and ant thing u may have to add or critique
Many years ago, I followed Asatru. I suppose I had bad experiences in the Asatru community, i.e., folkism, abuse of women, hard right politics, a sense of general anger and even hatred against the world, etc. I just continued on my way, away from that kind of stuff. But I have always remained interested in the core ideas of the old ways. Recently, I happened across this channel quite by accident, or so it would seem, and I am very glad to have done so. You have a most enlightened attitude and approach to this knowledge base. Thank you for sharing with a pagan who has been around the block more than a few times in this life ;-)
You have a sort of Sextus Empiricus vibe going on here.Thank you for your clarity of expression!
Very much an inspiration, you've got a good eye.
@@OceanKeltoi Thank you for your kind reply.
I've been an agonistic ever since my mother tried to force me into the christian cult, because while I agree that Christianity is ultimately harmful, if the gods exist, they might even be reincarnations of other beings, like how the Hindus view Devas and Asuras. I think I'm going to try a pagan version of Pascal's wager, as in if the gods exist, I might as well try to foster frith, and if not, well like George Carlin says, I'll pick the superstition that sounds fun, and have fun with it
I still feel plagued by needing to be certain of things. I went from a very strong christian faith to a loose one, then became an atheist, an agnostic after that (mostly because I wasn't certain God didn't exist) and finally I'm here not knowing where I am but paganism is sounding cool right now.
Throughout I had several existential crisis about not being certain of anything, I was having doubt I even existed, but ultimately I ended up with the classic "I think therefore I am", so I knew at least I existed in some way. After that I decided to take physical reality as real because it was useful thought, even if solipsism saw it as assumption I think is a fair assumption to make.
I feel like I had deconstructed all my beliefs and was rebuild them, but after seeing this video I see there still much deconstruction to be made so I can explore uncertainty without much fear.
This video really came in a timely fashion for me.
Great video. Loved the philosophy discussion.
I was a Christian because of my parents, but they weren't very dedicated to their religion. I made some great questions and ended up in atheism.
I wasn't aware that there was another option, until I met my girlfriend (now my wife) that called herself a witch. I started studying it, ended up in witchcraft and we finally arrived today, in what I'm pretty unsure to classify as "Kemetic neo-pagan", because I mix reconstructionism and eclectic practices.
One of the best things in polytheism, for me, is that we don't NEED all the answers.
From my personal experience: Christians are obsessed to get their answers from one source, atheists are obsessed to disprove everyone's faith and I... I'm just happy to live today, furthering my life, my practices, my faith and building it as every day passes by.
This video quite represents my personal experience and it's great to see more people experience it in similar ways.