Pelagius: The Church Father that Saved Me from Christianity
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 29 ก.ย. 2024
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Pelagius is regarded as one of the foundational theologians of Celtic Christianity, and is regarded as a heretic by many, but ahead of his time by others. He would teach women, saw goodness in the creation, and helped me on a path that ultimate led me away from Christianity, and yet still with a healthy respect for Pelagianism and Celtic Christianity. So here I explain a little about Celtic Christianity, Pelagius, and the journey he inspired in me.
6:18 ah, so we are about to hear the tale of (darth) Pelagius the wise, then?
Ah, dang it. I thought I was being original making that joke. lol
he became more and more strong and big
lost his power afterwards
afterwards he died
Love this
Interesting page. Pelagius sounds like his head was in the right place. I'll be researching more about him
glad I was not the only one who thought of this lmao
This is not a story the Jedi would tell you.
Well the republic was controlled by the senate.. which was controlled by the empire... so who was really keeping the story hidden?
@@neowolf09 indeed??????
@@neowolf09 The Jedi...
Let me tell you the tragedy of Darth Pelagius the Wise.
Is it possible to learn this power?
I love this!
I missed your video in the barcrawl yesterday because my connection was bad, but this guy kinda teaches EXACTLY what I actually believe
I definitely remember grappling with some of these concepts taken for granted and see as law by most modern Christians. I think the apostle Paul said that there are good people outside of the Christian faith, that would be safe from hell because God's not so unjust that he would hold it against them that they didn't know, but that after being told about the jesus and denying him then they would be judged. And I thought to myself then proselytizing is the worst sin one can commit. You have plucked a soul safely from the gates of heaven and condemned them to hell just by aggressively sharing your beliefs and not just living a good life silently. Sorta lead me down a de-christianization rabbit hole to a more holistic pagany type view.
You know, I never thought to look at it that way before. From that, proselytizing now sounds like one big smear campaign to send as many souls to hell as possible lol.
Paul did say that, but that just means they won't be judged for rejecting Christ, they're still judged for their other sins, so Christians can still justify evangelization as it still makes forgiveness easier for people.
My dad has always been Christian and growing up he talked a bit about it to me. Im 23 today and my dad is 56. Dad always has this view like Pelagius. It's sounds like common sense :D To see God / Gods in everything everywhere and to love the world / the creation.
Sola Scriptura is an idea that only exists in Protestantism. The Orthodox Church uses Apostolic tradition to interpret the bible, otherwise you can get it to say just about anything which is why today there's tens of thousands of Protestant denominations with each one saying something different.
What’s apostolic tradition? Does that refer to stories, documents , council decisions, and rules developed outside the canon? I’m not aware of apostles still in existence by the second century.
@@contentstarved991 It's referring to the central tennents of the faith which was passed down from Jesus to the Apostles to their successors within the Church. The Orthodox church traces its lineage all the way back to Jesus Himself. The Roman Catholics too but they strayed some time ago.
Love this! I am so glad this channel was recommended ro me.
Born and raised roman catholic. Former youth pastor, church choir leader, and was heavily involved in church until I was 17 and a new administrator from the arch diocese came in. Because I was openly gay I was asked to be less involved in the church in a visible way. I was basically told that because I choose to live a sinful life with no remorse or intention of repenting that i was not a good influence for those trying to live a christian life, the frat boy who bragged about doing drugs, partying every night, and banging as many girls as he could each party was still allowed to speak and lead youth groups.
I have all but left the church and have labeled myself as agnostic and have done a bit of comparative religion research. I think that this video is extremely informative and I plan to look more into Palagius because of it.
Patristic’s would argue for the same things that Pelagius taught. Augustinian tradition was based upon coercion, violence, extortion and bribery. Augustine was known for his near extermination of an entire group of people, The Donastists. Coming out of the time of the great persecution of Diocletian, Donatus and his followers refused to accept the leadership and ministry of priests and bishops who had shown cowardice in the face of persecution. This was only one group that Augustine went after. His sexual promiscuity was explained away by his adherent view of total depravity (He literally “couldn’t help himself” 😆). Augustine very often had a poor tendency to develop doctrine based on his own experience rather than what scripture taught. Augustine’s problem with promiscuity and lust, as a churchman and bishop, caused problems with his thought-life. He concluded that no one is able to choose to do good ever and that all are reprobate wretches perpetual incapable of ever permeating goodness no matter what they tried. His over indulgent sexuality formed the basis for the doctrines of experiential theology. Mostly based on his own moral failures which caused him to attack the Biblically Orthodox Theology of Pelagius, Celestius and Julian of Eclanum. All of whom taught of man’s intrinsic goodness and God’s panentheistic presence that permeated all things. Living in Rome, Pelagius condemned the Emperor's court, thus earning the enmity of Emperor Honorius. As many did when it looked like the “barbarians” might overwhelm Rome, Pelagius left Rome for other parts, specifically, Palestine. While living in Palestine, several of Augustine's followers in Palestine brought charges of heresy against Pelagius, and Jerome joined in the accusations. There were two trials/synods held in Palestine, and at both of these examinations, Pelagius was declared to be Orthodox on all counts. He was actually present to defend himself and explain what he taught. Not content to have Palestinian bishops try Pelagius, Augustine had two more trials/synods held to "examine" Pelagius' teachings, both in North Africa, in Augustine's own home town. To no one's great surprise, these two kangaroo courts declared Pelagius to be a heretic. Mind you, these two trials were held in North Africa, under Augustine's direction, and without Pelagius there to defend his teachings. Results of these four trials were sent to Pope Innocent of Rome, who sided with Augustine. But Innocent had been lobbied hard by Augustine ahead of time. Pelagius had not had a chance to defend his teachings. Knowing that Augustine was working to have him declared heretical, Pelagius prepared a defence of his teachings and sent it to Rome. Innocent died before Pelagius' defense arrived, and a new pope was selected, Zosimus. Zosimus received Pelagius' written defense, and after reading the defense, reopened the case. After examining both sides, Zosimus declared Pelagius wholly Orthodox in teaching yet again by an impartial decree. This gave Augustine and his party fits, and so they decided to enlist a little more help. Augustine supported using “legal force” to settle church matters in the case of the Donatists. Therefore Augustine decided to enlist the Emperor in this matter of doctrine. Augustine and his party decided to appeal to Emperor Honorius in order to sway him to join them on this matter of doctrine. In addition, a fellow bishop and friend of Augustine, Alypius, sent a bribe of 80 stallions to Honorius to use his influence on Zosimus. Again, to no one's surprise, the following year, Zosimus bowed to Imperial pressure and declared Pelagius a heretic. The Wester Church, after the death of Augustine and Pelagius, and under the sting of Imperial pressure and Jerome's hatred, went on to declare all of Pelagius' teachings heretical and all of Augustine's as Orthodox. It is due to the ungodly efforts of Augustine and his party that we owe the spectacle of church doctrine being decided by political power and chicanery. Augustine was far from being a saint and was responsible for much bad theology being introduced into the Western Church. Most Protestantism (Albeit the majority of Western “Orthodoxy.” Catholicism and the 40,000+ “Christian” denominations that all claim to have the “truth.”) is built firmly upon the foundations laid by Manichaeism masqueraded as “Christian” all because of an egotistical psychopath. Today teachings of the Gnostics are highly prevalent in Western Christian doctrine. Augustine's appeal to horrific violence was the justification that now drenches history books with the marred image of a blood-stained church willing to kill to enforce its positions. This is a far deviation from the non-violent, radically forgiving, unconditionally loving, co-suffering and other centred teachings of Jesus. Perhaps the life of Pelagius should give us all pause to consider what we’ve been indoctrinated to believe no matter if it’s religion, politics, science or philosophy.
Pelagianism is how my father, a priest in the Orthodox Church, functionally approached his faith and teachings, which helped me realize that the churches of Christianity were the false idols. I’ve since (mostly) set aside faith (hard to do when it’s drilled into that soft kid brain) in favor of living a life of good acts and service. I hope to teach my children to be good, kind, responsible people who care after their neighbors and the Earth.
11:37 if you look at Justin Martyr though for example he seems to have promoted that there are seeds of Truth everywhere and this idea still exists in the Orthodox in Catholic Churches today
Thanks. I think John Wesley referenced Pelagius when he was trying to find an early church source that stood outside of the toxic orthodoxy that we've inherited as christianity.
...i studied that like over thirty years ago so its hard to remember exactly.
Thanks. Great video. Good stuff.
Yes I would be interested to investigate this further.
"Toxic orthodoxy"
If you think Augustine is "orthodox", you are definitely wrong. Augustine had orthodox views before the pelagian controversy. Pelagius just confronted Augustine because he was going into unorthodox teachings (Augustine was a Manichean for 10 years before he converted). Augustine didn't like that, used his position, strawmanned Pelaguis and shifted from orthodoxy from platonic and gnostic thought.
Pelagius condemned the 14 points in which Augustine accused him. Pelagius himself wasn't even "a pelagian".
The problem is that when people get presented with Calvinistic views of God they think that the real God of the Bible, but that's far from the truth. God is good, just, He doesn't condemn people because of something which Adam did, He condemns them for their own sins. God draws all people to Himself and everyone can come to Him as long as he really wants.
I would like add that Pelagius was really only condemned in the the Roman tradition of Christianity in Orthodox Christianity his views aren't that different. Western Roman Christianity was a major fanboy of Augustin of Hippo. Orthodox Christianity doesn't have the same view on the whole "Original Sin".
Watched this a few times,I agree 100 pct with you . Being a deacon in Coptic Orthodox church and before that a mega church guy in southern California.I have often wondered how the veil was cast over my eyes all these years...A few things Jesus say in Holy Bible ring true,but I think he is sad what Christianity has morphed into ...Thanks for awesome content
I honestly do not know a lot about Pelagius outside of what you have shared and what Augustine has said about him, but he sounds like he was right about a lot of things. I would agree that you can see a reflection of God in all creation similar to how you would see an arrest reflected in their work. Because God is omnipresent he is every where, but I believe that there are times when God is more obviously somewhere or where He manifests his presence more potently.
I think that Pelagius is right about scripture and women, although I would argue that scripture is a well preserved human account of how God has interacted with his people. I believe Pelagius and Luke would get along very well and that Paul and Augustine would get along better on that issue.
Thank you for sharing your video, and it is nice to see your face. I am always seeking to become a better Christian and a better person and I believe spending time with Jesus is more important than spending time in the Bible, but also that it is important to understand the Bible. Because if God and his followers have already gone through something we can learn from them and avoid wrong beliefs and wrong practices on our journey to become more like Jesus.
I hear tints of the Gnostics and Cathars (what little we really know) in this and if you keep digging Gnostics started as Pagan too. There must be a connection, Britain and France were a kingdom or region for a time towards the end of the western Empire and the Celtic tribes of France, Britain and Ireland were pretty connected (if only for a good dust up) for a long time.
The Bible has the Gospel of Luke, A.K.A. Loki. And in Genesis in the Garden of Eden there is Yggdrasil, the the World Tree, as the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil.
Hi and thanks for the interesting video. I'm in the process of becoming a Christian at the moment and whilst looking into the Pelagian heresy I found your video. From what I've read, the problem with Pelagius' teaching was that he believed too strongly in free will - too much of a Stoic, thinking that man could solve all of his problems and undergo radical transformation without divine grace. St. Augustine wrote the Confessions as an honest portrayal of how he struggled to reign in his own appetites, arguing there's some part of his soul which can't stop sinning and doing bad things no matter how much tries to stop himself: this is original sin. Pelagius, on the other hand, disagrees arguing that man can overcome his capacity to sin through his own willpower and pull himself up by the bootstraps without the need of grace. For myself, Augustine's description of the human experience seems to model reality far more accurately
Well, people don't talk much about it, but at least in Catholic theology there are some ideas of how so called "virtuous pagans" could be saved. Jesus could apear to them in the afterlife or purgatory. At least the ones that came before him, but I think it could easily apply to people in other locations, etc. Though, Aquinas for instance says that if there is a virtuous man that is open to Jesus raised alone in the woods the Bible will find a miraculous way to get to him. Wich is hilariously dumb, of course, and also means somewhat that if you haven't came in contact with a bible, you are not trully virtuous doesn't matter what you do.
Man, when I left catholicism I thought Christianity was weird, but after I discovered just how much worse other branches were, I'm glad I was raised a catholic. I know nobody can trump the historical atrocities of them, but in terms of nowaday doctrines, at least it had a purgatory, and most people would probably spend some time in there. When I discovered there where people who believed there's only eternal reward of eternal punishment I thought "what a scarry way to live and what an unjust God".
Did you ever heard the story of Darth Palegius the wise?
I thought not. It's not a story the christians would tell you
Daam you! I wanted that. Pffftttttt arrghhhh 😂
Somebody beat me too it lol
Have you heard of Darth Vader the dark lord....no pun intended.
Repent, and believe the Gospel of Luke and the sacred Jedi Texts! I have the high ground! 🤣
Of course you like Pelagius, his name comes from πέλαγος, i.e. open sea, or OCEAN.
a common Tibetan name (and the name I was given when I took Refuge from a Tibetan lineage) is Gyatso, which means ocean. Weird how connected Indo-European culture seems to still be after so much diversification and diaspora
@@badluckrabbit Tibetan, of course, belongs to the Sino-Tibetan family. But since Pali, Sanskrit, etc. are Indo-European, I imagine there could be an Indo-European influence, via Buddhism, on Tibetan naming practices. I don't know enough about the topic to say.
@@nathanmauk9387 yeah some kind of cultural pollination from Indian Buddhism would make sense
@@badluckrabbit a lot more indo-European culture than people realize. It’s amazing. I have this book March of the Titans (The Complete History of the White Race) by Arthur kemp. It’s a very detailed Kemp spent 30 yrs researching to write it. What is fascinating is the reach these ancient people. The mummies of Pharaoh Ramses 2 with red hair, Yuya with blonde hair, Thuya Tutankhamun’s great grandmother with blonde hair, also there’s a statues with blue lapus lazuli inset eyes, and a fourth dynasty depiction of Queen Hetop-Heres2 daughter of Cheops with blonde hair. And the Tocharian mummies in China , Canary Islands, and also North America. There’s also pre-Columbian murals in Mexico that show chichen itza warriors sacrificing white prisoners with long blonde hair. So much history and different ancient cultures describe white bearded gods bringing knowledge and civilization. The similarities of the Egyptian pyramids the canary island pyramids and the Mexican pyramids. The Aztecs the the Spaniards were the gods returning from the sea from which they came.
@@James_from_I.E. Wrong Channel, Sir. You might find one of the Odin Norse channels your thing.
" so there one problem "
its going to be about teaching women
" people drag him for teaching women "
Men were ( are )so frightened of a woman who isn't kept down by ignorance.
“Living a life of wisdom”, that sounds very _Havamal_
That was my thought too
@@Bee-zr5pb me and my gf were talking about sleep paralysis demons last night and this comment lit up my ipad+the whole room and scared the shit out of us
comedic timing lmao
@@BrigantinosDoRoudos wow, crazy synchronicity lol
Reminds me of some Greek philosophers too. Also Gnosticism. Makes me wonder if what he got these ideas from was some far older Druidic mystery school that he tried to rebrand as Christianity to make the ancient wisdom survive. It would make sense!
Sounds like Solomon
These teachings are something I've known in my heart and tried to talk about as a child (in the language and perspective of a child, I wasn't some child genius) in the Catholic church and didn't understand why I was told I was wrong. The older I get, the more I see how Catholics and Christians interpret, and the more I feel that we have gotten the whole thing wrong. So many good ideas in early Christianity that got squashed. I can only blame people who want to create and hoard power. :|
I mean, you can always become protestant what you're saying is essentially just the protestant claim.
Well no worries, Christianity is inherently a bad idea
Isn't this the guy who has Sheogorath in his head???
I see we have an Elder Scrolls fan.
no, no, that was Pelagius the III, this is just Pelagius... close, but no cigar. ^_~
If no one had beaten me to it, I would be undecided if I wanted to make puns about Darth Pelagius or Pealgius Septim III lolol
Ah shit your right
Yes
I had a formal Catholic education and the only thing we were ever taught about Pelagius was that he taught against original sin, which was/is considered an essential part of the argument as to why Christ's sacrifice was even needed in the first place. Ironically just about every other one of his teachings that you went through is pretty compatible with Catholic teaching nowadays, but that was never brought up in my education. It's worth mentioning I don't consider myself a Catholic (or even a christian really) anymore, though.
Same here and you're right, more or less everything is in line with post Vatican II Catholicism. Not so much with traditional Catholicism.
I'm not a Catholic either any longer, and I made sure to make it formal, but it was bloody hard. I had to write official letters to my bishop several times, stating I am an atheist, all so my name would be removed from the church books.
Even then nothing was working, I was constantly being told to wait and they would "deliberate" on it.
Eventually, I literally had to threaten that I would desecrate the host right there on the mass if I had to, and within 2 weeks I was officially "excommunicated".
Ditto, I had that formal catholic education. Whats funny is that the catholics from the East also reject Augustine and his original sin teachings. It creates an odd dynamic. They also have issues with the immaculate conception as a result.
Jesus came to update the covenant with God that Moses made.
Ya but master can hold u to perfection in spirit thru Christ Jesus Amen
It's weird how he singles out the idea that they were against teaching women when Jerome publicly spoke about the need to teach women the same as men and taught many women, himself, not only how to read the scriptures but even how to read them in the original Hebrew. And he wasn't remotely the only one doing this. I mean, the fact we have so many women saints and churches named after non-Biblical women should be kind of a dead giveaway that there's something off with that teaching.
But this sounds like a guy who believed a book instead of doing significant research into the veracity of its claims so he doesn't realize he's actually being kind of a bigot.
If he'd bothered to learn Catholic history and beliefs many of his issues would have had answers. Which is weird. He claims he investigated, but he clearly stopped at learning about early Catholicism (which is a big part of what we based Vatican II on). He may want to evaluate his biases.
I've been studying Irish Celtic spirituality, and let me tell you what, a lot of that shit you described rings pretty true to what I've read.
Having a camera allows for the physical comedy and body language I've always enjoyed seeing when you've been on streams and such to come through in your scripted content as well and I think it's a really good step to take. I really like water blob boi tho, can he like hang out in the corner of the screen or something?
I am a Christian and I agree pretty much with everything you said! About 10 or so years ago I began to realize that for the first 300 years or so the Church Fathers were far more Pelagian than Augustinian (to put it anachronistically). They genuinely believed that God IS Love - and that - at the end of the ages - ALL would be saved by that Love (sometimes referred to as "Historic Christian Universalism")
Thanks for sharing these insights!
I'm a heathen like ocean, but I have a deep love of, and fascination with theology of all faiths. I've come to think that if there is a salvific event as Christianity, and other faiths claim, its probably a much safer bet for me to follow the path I'm on, and be a good person that it would've been to continue on in the fundamentalist perversion of Christianity i was raised in. Got a new theology book coming in at the moment, Jesus for the non-religious by Bishop John Shelby Spong, who I definitely recommend checking out if you're not already familiar with him since you're a Christian yourself. I'd imagine any Christian who'd be commenting on an ocean keltoi vid without trying to convert us would probably appreciate Bishop Spong's work just as much, if not even more than I do.
@@burninsherman1037 Appreciate the recommendation! I am familiar with Spong. We all have to “land” somewhere (at least to rest on our quest)… I’m 69, a former Calvinist pastor who has “repented” of believing in that morally monstrous “god”. I haven’t “arrived”, but now embrace (unlike Spong) a pretty (classical) orthodox perspective not unlike many of the early Church Fathers. I confess and believe that Jesus Christ is God incarnate, and the Savior of the world. The greatest seismic shift was for me was embracing Historic Christian Universalism- coming to believe that God really is Love, and is hell bent on saving every human being who ever has or will live. If I may return the favor, check out Thomas Talbot, former philosophy professor (now retired), and his book The Inescapable Love of God. Thanks for reaching out and sharing❤️!
I am a Christian pastor and Bible teacher at Christian private school. I’ve discussed Pelagius briefly, but only in reference to his condemnation by the church. I’m interested in you fleshing this out a bit more. Thanks for sharing.
No wonder Celtic Christianity & Irish paganism always appealed to me. Being around nature, seeing the goodness of creation & mankind, no original sin, seeing God and the gods in everything etc.
gods in everything?
And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent. - Jesus of Nazareth the Christ.
Exodus 20:3- Thou shalt have no other gods before me.
Who is the Father Jesus was referring to?
Mat. 22: 31-32
But as touching the resurrection of the dead, have ye not read that which was spoken unto you by God, saying,
I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living.
@@AA-by7xc Jesus isn’t the “only true God” friend. Sorry to burst your bubble
@@marksalazar4086 Where did the other "gods" come from?
@@marksalazar4086 I will tell you there are other angelic beings, and even Satan is called the “God of this world.” Followers of the Father do not worship these entities though.
This is basically what traditional Christianity taught. Augustine was the only church father who taught original sin. Even Augustine argued that everything is good in so far as it participates in being and evil has no real existence
if i ever went back to Christianity, (i won't) i would believe Pelagius
Same, honestly. If I were to trek back to Christianity, Celtic Christianity would be my home. But I dont think I ever will.
Same here. My dad’s relatives came from Poland, Lithuania, Germany and Austria and originally they were all Jewish. Over time they drifted away from Judaism and many of them converted to Christianity (the Protestant form). What pushed me out of my concept of monotheism was the death of my grandpa, my dad’s dad. I began to explore different faiths and I stumbled upon Wicca. Over time I discovered Neodruidism and Asátru and I have been very lucky to have supportive parents who supported my decision to follow a polytheistic faith. My brother used to tease me about it but I think my mom might have told him to behave. I wish I had told my grandma, my dad’s stepmom who was Catholic, that I converted to Celtic polytheism but I never did. I don’t doubt that she would’ve accepted my decision since she welcomed my mom, who comes from a Lutheran family, with open arms but maybe it’s because I was worried she might not fully understand my decision. Ever since I converted I feel happy with my spiritual beliefs. I’m currently feeling melancholic but it’s because I miss my hometown and I’ve been struggling with homesickness. Also I told my mom about Pelagius and she actually said good for him for putting forward the concept of free will.
Because he aligns with your man-centered view of reality?
@@OceanKeltoi you ought to be ashamed too. To claim you were a believer in the first place is an obvious lie. Hopefully one day you'll wake up, before it's too late.
@@Isaac-hr8ug There's nothing to gain from an entity that doesn't exist, you can't submit to things that don't exist
This reminds me of my philosophy teacher (for some background, I went to a catholic school most of my life, however I found myself in paganism and wicca early on.) He was cool, one thing he taught however, was that their God was in everything. I mentioned ideas of polytheism and he had said that the reason it "doesn't work" is because there was "only enough room (in the universe) for one god", because he's in everything.
My friends and I (who all have differing but similar beliefs) ended up agreeing that, because of our limited human perspective, we're unable to know if a sole god could fit in everything, or if it were possible for 1. other deities to be responsible for different things and 2. that multiple deities couldn't overlap, considering their bodies aren't physically.
It was a weird conversation lol just some food for thought :)
There is a difference between the polytheistic gods and the demiurge. Monotheistic religions have a wrong perspective of what polytheistic gods are, thinking they are the demiurge. In the view of a lot of western esotericists (including me), the polytheistic gods can be labeled under a hierachy of angels called 'Powers'. This can also be confirmed amongst other things, in the bible, where it indicated a clear relation that 'the sons of God saw that the daughters of mankind were beautiful, and they took any they chose as wives for themselves.', an indication to the rapes by Zeus and other figures. So in my view they are not 'god' in the sense of the christian god but rather angels of high status. The view of the christian god, which in my opinion is also flawed by having the qualities of a 'pure human', relates to the demiurge, which we know nothing about.
Apart from that argument, one can point out the holy trinity, three beings in one. Why can't there be more? Alas, I abstain from this argument as the trinity is a metaphorical identity to the crown sephira, and the sides of man, mineral, vegetable and animal...sulfur, salt, mercury (not in the right order).
I'll definitely be researching Pelagius more now. This channel keeps giving me more research topics; keep them coming!
I really like this pelagius his ideas same very Arian as for Celtic christianity that was totally pagan friendly and didn't condemn the Gods it simply added jesus to the pantheon which as a pagan and gnostic I'm totally fine with.
Did it really allow for worship of the Celtic gods as well? This has been a very concerning question for me lately, I am torn between praying to Jesus and praying to the Celtic Gods... I feel like this Celtic Christianity, if it follows what you said, is definitely for me if it allows for co-worship
@@user-yc8qi2yu4j it definitely did it's the same with Gothic christianity and even Anglo Saxons if you look at the Frank's casket on one side it has the story of way wayland and on the other it has the adoration of the Magi, theres literally nothing wrong with worshipping the Gods and Jesus.
Danny Gardiner that makes me feel so much better, I’ve been praying to what I just called “god” for so long while not having grown up in church. I felt like there was more that existed that I didn’t know about, but now that I’ve found Celtic religion, I didn’t want to give up prayer that I’ve been doing my whole life, but also am now pulled to pray to the gods and ancestors as called for within Celtic Polytheism.
@@user-yc8qi2yu4j that's great man you definitely should you shouldn't confine yourself to just one thing Jesus had no issue with people following other Gods 🙂
@Space Organism how insightful
Speaking of Lao Tzu even though I have an affinity for Norse Paganism I personally feel that Lao Tzu's writings are some of the most spiritually profound I've ever heard.
I feel the same way.
@@OceanKeltoi SO DO I!
1) the camera work is good, but maybe think about adding a soft light behind you and to your left? I think that might make you and your setup pop a little more.
2) I've been poking at the issue of "if you have to believe in Jesus to be saved, does that mean that all the thousands of generations Aboriginal peoples are unanimously going to hell?" For a while. This was actually the first big question about theology I started asking people. And I was about 8 when I first asked it. Nobody ever gave me a good answer. A few months ago, I was talking to my mom about it, and she finally gave an answer: the same answer Pelagius had. That if you're a good and Christ-like person, God will accept you, even if you never heard of him.
I didn't know that St. Augustine had managed to get that teaching to be deemed a heresy though. That is good info to have.
And as always, your videos are great. I'm glad you are getting more subs.
This is my first exposure to the teachings of Pelagius and I am shocked at how closely it seems aligns with my own, self-formed, understandings of Christianity.
My maternal grandmother always had something she said to us whenever we encountered a less pleasant part of the natural world (bad weather, baby birds falling from nests, various insects, etc): "It's part of nature and nature is beautiful." She also said the same thing in regards to the more pleasant parts of nature. She was Baptist, and that attitude was passed to my mom, which was passed to us. That was the closest either of them got to any sort of paganism at all, and it also prevented me from internalizing the concept of original sin, which I'm grateful for lol.
It's the logical interpretation of the gospels that one comes up with if they were not previously influenced by any other interpretation.
@@DB-pp7kjTrue.
Man, I see why he was so influential for you- I think he’s my favorite church father now!
This sounds very familiar to the kinds of things I was taught growing up in a Presbyterian church. A lot of focus on acting good and emulating Christ and loving and forgiveness and acceptance and all that.
I never really encountered anything different until I moved away. I think clumping all Christians into a single category really misses a lot. I've come to appreciate how radically different the beliefs of various Christians are.
Thanks for giving a good overview and background on Pelagius. Oddly enough the first time I'd heard of him was in the movie "King Arthur" with Clive Owen, which mentions his teachings and has the character Arthur tell his knights "You were all free from your first breath."
The story of Darth pelagius the wise, it isn't a story the fundamentalists would tell you.
Bring back the real Ocean #FakeOcean #OceanIsCancelled
Errrrrm do I need to ggo down that rabbit hole lol
I consider myself agnostic/atheist. I’m just poking around looking to learn more about pagan belief systems. Thanks for the introduction to Pelagius. Great content!
I love your delivery and honesty. I find it so fulfilling and joyful as a Baltic/Slavic pagan
Ironically, a lot of catholics (seemingly including the pope ) now believe the "salvation for non believers" thing. It makes me suspect that the church wasn't just about finding truth after all...
Well some would say the Catholic Church was taken over by "outside forces" I think they killed the pope to put a masonic pope on the thhrone allowing many things to go unseen.
@ThetaRexForever We watched the same documentary. I'd suggest you do research on the veracity of the 'facts' in this documentary. I'd also suggest you do research into what scholars think of Joseph Atwill, who is the center of this "jesus is made up by the romans" claim. The historicity of Jesus Christ is universally accepted by scholars, there's too much attestation (both Christian and non-Christian) to deny that. Archaeologist and Biblical Researcher at Duke University, Eric Meyers, even says that "those who deny the existence of Jesus are like the deniers of climate change.”
For that reason and many more, serious scholars across the pond (atheist, agnostic, religious) are not really fond (to put it lightly) of Joseph Atwill. Might I add that he actually isn't a biblical scholar with credentials, do with that whatever you may.
On the historicity of Jesus Christ:
www.reasonablefaith.org/images/uploads/Rediscovering_the_Historical_Jesus_The_Evidence_for_Jesus.pdf
A short article by a Public Theologian on Joseph Atwill's conspiracy
www.huffpost.com/entry/was-jesus-a-roman-inventi_b_4080458
Check thoughts from an actual Scholar, who even had a conversation with Joseph Atwill about his conspiracy. This should be helpful:
www.richardcarrier.info/archives/4664
Another article on Atwill's conspiracy by a researcher and scholar
josh.do/why-were-talking-about-joseph-atwill-and-caesars-messiah/
Other stuff to check out:
www.reddit.com/r/AskHistorians/comments/1o1ca2/id_like_a_real_historians_critique_of_american/
www.reddit.com/r/AcademicBiblical/comments/i2ltyc/what_are_the_opinions_on_joseph_atwill_and_caesar/
www.quora.com/What-do-other-historians-think-about-the-works-of-Joseph-Atwill-American-Biblical-scholar-trying-to-disprove-Jesus
It's sad that Joseph Atwill's conspiracy has been allowed to gain mass following, but I hope you're willing to actually look beyond the confirmation bias :)
false
@ThetaRexForever No problems! I added a couple more articles and edits to my comment :)
@ThetaRexForever I' hope I didn't come across that way, sorry if I did. However, I'm not interested in forcing anyone to conform to anything. It seems, though, that you're implying that belief in "my religion" is conformation and evidence against falsehoods is forcefully trying to make one conform. Not really sure I'd agree with that. If you aren't implying that, fair. The language used was interesting at the least.
All this to say, I'm really just trying to stand for truth and proper scholarship. Atwill's work is very unfounded (lightly speaking) and has really made people think they've sunk the historicity of Jesus Christ. I'd also rather one not believe than think they're being forced to believe.
Oh I've heard of this guy didn't he use the force to influence the mitochondria in your blood to create life
So I’m by no means a Christian, probably not even a theist. But I just remembered that in r.e. Or what is called we were talking about different perceptions of god. As an introduction we were asked to dress god and inevitably most drew an old bearded dude on a cloud. Mostly to be creative and do sth different I tried to visualize a more naturalistic view and of course I didn’t explain it well. But the teacher said he liked the drawing better then the explanation. I’ve never heard of Pelagius once on my education. I feel more and more cheated and lied to by my teachers. My drawing would have been a great opportunity to at least mention him in passing and instead I was dismissed. Thanks for adding just another puzzle piece in understanding how bad my religious education actually was.
I had never heard of Pelagius. Thank you for doing this amazing video. I have tried to enlighten a neighbor about this to no avail. He seems stuck in believing Christian=good and pagan=bad despite the fact that I basically saved his life. I am able to sense certain things and I sensed that he had cancer and it was spreading. I took a chance and told him. He did go to the doctor and I was correct. He is now on chemo. Despite all this and his thanking me for saving his life, he still is adamant that I basically am going to his Christian Hell.,.I give up, lol
You hear the tragedy of Darth Pelagius the Wise? I thought not. It's not a story the Jedi would tell you.
Come on, if we're gonna do the pun, do it correctly "It's not a story the Christians would tell you" lolz
Why does his name bear a striking resemblance to a certain Sith Lord whose life ended in tragedy...
Irony. Palagius' name is a Latinized Gaelic name, George Lucas just liked taking scary sounding words, like tyrant, plague, maul, etc & turning them into Sith names.
I feel like Caelestius was pronounced "kah-ee-les-tee-oos". I took Latin and his name in documented history would have been romanized.
it depends on who you ask... in "Church Latin" he would be pronounced "tsay-les-tee-oos", the way I learned it in school "kay-les-tee-oos" which still is different than apparently you learned it.
I've found that I don't encounter your main issue with Christianity outside of America so much. All the European Christians I know sound more like Pelagius (goodness is about being christ-like). Most Americans are shallow tho, so if it's not your denomination that makes you "good", then it's your race, or your nationality, or some other bullshit to pass the most shallow of judgements. That's just how shallow people think, and they'll twist any ideology to use like that.
Christian here! This is really fascinating to me! I've been studying a lot of other religions recently and trying to find Yahweh in them, and I do! I really do agree with this concept in a lot of ways!
Background: I do believe in soli-scriptura.
The way I have come to personally understand salvation is rooted in a couple different verses I've found over the years (I can't remember the exact references right now) It talks about there being two judgements on judgement day, and in Roman's 7 Paul also talks a LOT about how we (Christians), as those under the revealed law, are actually held to a stricter standard, even going so far as to say that those NOT under the law Don't Even Sin. This has lead me to apply a Thief on the Cross mentality to salvation. I'll epxlain.
The thief on the cross, in his last moments, knew Jesus to be the Son of God/God incarnate. In that moment Jesus says that he will be with him in paradise. The way I see it, I think there are MANY MANY MANY people who are serving God, but under different names (I have Muslim friends who pray to Allah using the specific names of Mercy, Forgiveness and pray "Allah, if there is a better way to serve you, show me and lead me to it." I believe God always hears those genuine prayers.) So I believe that on the day he is revealed, many people who were serving him with different names will go "Aha, of COURSE this is you. This is who I have been seeking to know and worship." just like the thief on the cross. That's the only way that it makes sense to me especially in regards to how far modern Christianity has fallen from the original intent, so of COURSE people are going to reject it, I reject it more than most of my non-religious friends honestly. Our version is pretty bullshit. And I think I'll have the same "Aha!" reaction too when he's revealed to me, like all the pieces finally fit together, I just think he might possibly use the same name that I believe he revealed, Yahweh, I AM.
The point for me comes down to the character of God. I believe he is the revelation of perfect goodness in the world, from where all good, beauty, and love comes from. I think if one is truly pursuing that Person, they will find him and I don't think anyone will just "happen to miss" the info. I don't think an infinite deity of Love would allow that to happen.
Also, many of the most selfish people I know are Christians, they have oriented their entire lives around themselves and when they get to heaven, unless they realize it, I believe that shutting themselves off completely from his attributes, kindness, love, justice, etc. means that they physically cannot exist within his presence as they have starved those attributes until they died and all that was left was the dregs of wickedness.
Hey Ocean, hope you're doing well. I really like this new video. I am glad to see your face on camera, that helps me especially being autistic. I like to see the facial structure and movement so that I can fully understand what you're conveying, so I do really really enjoy this. Thank you! I support you and your channel. I was a pagan and heathen priest for a group in prison and these teachings that you're giving are exactly what I was giving to my students who were just starting on their path of pagan and heathenism. So keep up the good work, Ocean, and I'm really liking this. Hail and welcome! Stay Trú and go with the Gods!
Cordially, J. Lee Thunarkin
Interesting!!
I love this take. I also had huge issue with Original Sin and Christian-Only salvation when I was a Christian.
I'll have to look this up.
My son has shown me this and I'd just like to say ...What a super wee talk. You make a lot of good points there. I was a christian for 20 years and had many questions that were never answered. "You're on a need to know basis and you don't need to know" :-)
I like what you have to say here. It makes a lot of sense and voices many of my thoughts from back then. I walked away from christianity 8 years ago. Looking forward to watching more of what you have produced.
Ah the heretic Pelagius.
I had never heard of Pelagius, but his teachings resemble the realizations I had about Christianity on a mushroom trip.
I loved this new style of video, Ocean! Good to see the epic beard! Also, loved hearing part one of your journey to your current path, excited to hear the rest! :)
John 3:16 speaks of believing to receive eternal life, YET the following verses explain what it means to believe - it means to LIVE ACCORDINGLY!
Pelagius was right!
ALL of life is a mystery, embrace the mystery, while endeavoring to live in the flow of love.
Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. It does not dishonor others, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres. Love never fails.
Really good video! I’ve heard of Pelagius, but didn’t know anything about him beyond he wasn’t liked in Rome.
I'm watching this as a Christian, and every other new factoid has me saying "Pelagius sounds based as fuck". Feels like it leads into Universalism well enough, at least from my understanding.
at about 11:00 the question of good people who never hear the gospel; the scripture teaches in Roman 10:18 where it is quoting Psalm 19:4 "their sound has gone out to all the earth"; essentially, creation reveals the first truths of the gospel universally, those things demonstrated in Psalm 19, discussed in Romans 1. There is testimony of God sufficient to persuade humans of all time to respond in choosing the fear of the Lord. On making that choice to fear God, He has promised to reveal to those people His covenant, Who is Jesus Christ Himself.
As a Celtic pagan this warms my heart. I came from a conservative fundamentalist Christian background and have had a number of arguments with my relatives over why I rejected the "truth" in favor of paganism, despite the teachings of Christianity being so diverse and complicated across the numerous denominations that pinning any single one of them down as "the truth" is impossible. I can't help that I find spiritual fulfillment in nature. I can't help that I'm drawn to Celtic traditions. And getting to hear about the teachings of Pelagius - for the first time, mind you, in this video - affirms to me that this really is the path that I'm meant to walk. Thank you for sharing your story. :) May the gods bless every step you take on your journey.
I find your "but how could x go to hell, he was such a good person!?!" Argument to be weaksauce. I hate Augustine's gnosticism and Pelagius' heresy, but it's better to learn more about these people than to just read the tagline. Thanks for your work.
I personally enjoy the ideas of Pelagius (not a story the Jedi would tell you). I am a Christian, but my theology veers more towards mysticism/liberation theology. So I'm not sure the video is really directed at me, I personally subscribe more to the idea of salvation through works and grace (also I don't believe in Hell). All in all good video, always good to see your face!
I think you mean this is not a story a Christian would tell you
What do you mean by "mysticism/liberation theology"?
How do you understand salvation through works and grace?
Why don't you believe in hell?
sounds like another episode of the church getting rid of someone who didn'tput the church and church authority at the center of all things.
I really enjoy this kind of mental and spiritual stimulation, your videos are awesome! Interestingly enough, in the Morning church they believe that if you didn't have a chance to learn the word of God in life, you will have an opportunity to learn in the afterlife! I always thought that was an interesting reconciliation with what you spoke about near the end.
I came out of Christianity too but not by following a pagan. I followed Yeshua, the Messiah, the son of the living God straight out of Christianity.
Pelagius was condemned for the simple reason that his teachings lead people away from the apostolic faith once delivered to the Saints. The presenter is a prime example. The presenter also had a very modern evangelical view of sola scriptura, not a classical or confessional Protestant perspective.
sadly the roman church and their very rich and powerful bishops can't be defeated back then, until now
I didnt know that Pelagius was a pantheist. That explains his heretical theology.
I've never liked how much salvation we need to get rid of the "original sin"
Ok, so our ancestors ate the fruit and we suffer because of that (which itself opens so many questions about God but whatever). Then you get Christ dying to wash away our sins. But that's not enough. We also need baptism, confirmation, confession... You can collect sacraments like pokemons and you'll still be a dirty sinner
It's like Jesus' sacrifice meant nothing
It's probably Kay-less-ti-us as in Fae or Maeve cause y'know Celtic and all IMHO
When I hear that pronunciation, I think of Khayless the first Emperor of the Klingon Empire in Star Trek.
Hail Odin! New sub !
Interesting video, one that I shall share with a " Cradle Catholic", that I know...I'll keep ya posted...!
He is a Christian version of Epicurus. I think I like Pelagius.
Hey man, although I disagree with your view of Christianity I'd like to say that this was an interesting listen for me. For starters, I'm an Orthodox Christian. You really had my attention when you mentioned Lao Tzu and other philosophers and their possibilities of salvation despite knowing almost nothing about Christ. I'd recommend that you look into a book called "Christ the Eternal Tao" by Hieromonk Damascene. I got the honor of meeting and speaking to Fr. Damascene about two years ago during an annual church retreat and he was very insistent in saying that philosophers before Christ's time definitely had the possibility of attaining salvation depending on how they lived their lives. He was also a pupil of Fr. Seraphim Rose, who despite some controversy in America, is like a celebrity in the Orthodox Church, especially in Eastern Europe, so you'd probably be interested in reading up on him too. I don't know if any of the things I recommended will enlighten you or get you to think of things in a new light in regards to specifically Eastern Christianity, but nevertheless thank you for sharing this video. I'll be praying for you, God bless!
Your Christ is a copy of Syrian myths mixed with the Iranian\Persian cults of Zoroastrianism and Mithra. It is HISTORICALLY impossible for Jesus to be the Messiah or the "Christ". First because the Jewish law forbids human sacrifices, second because the genealogy of Jesus is totally wrong and third because Jesus is not a descendant of David. Only Paul of Tarsus who was a Roman citizen taught that Jesus came to die for sins. Jesus never ever claimed to be the Messiah or that he came to die for sins. The Messiah is not a soul savior like Mithra was or other soul savior gods. The New Testament is full of mythological layers they put over Jesus of Nazareth. The truth is more simpler. I am a Taoist and please leave Lao-Tzu aside and do not compare it to Christianity most of what Lao Tzu taught or Taoism is not different of what Jesus taught but it gives even more than the toxic Abrahamic religions. Jesus' teachings are like Eastern wisdom with Hebrew accent. The same way Moses adapted all the Egyptian knowledge to a tribal deity called Yahweh, Jesus did the same with Eastern wisdom to the Jews. Abrahamic religions are TOXIC their cornerstone are threatens and punishment or judgements from God if you disobey. Sounds more to me that the Abrahamic gods are more like pagan deities and in fact they are. God has nothing to do with this tribal and nationalistic pride that Christian or Jews or Muslims have on calling themselves "special" or the "people of God" who gave them a holy land. God is not a real estate agent. Jesus never claimed he came to die to give salvation from sins or our evil nature that doesnt exists or anything like that.
So many Star Wars references but not one Skyrim reference. The even the name is the same there!
Edit: alright, I've found one
If someone had told me I would hear this (12:13 really?) I would not have believed it...
"...saved me from Christianity"? Indeed you are!
As a Christian I never thought that all people that aren't Christians are bound to go to hell. Maybe that's my European Catholic upbringing because I often hear these kinds of extreme views from US branches of Christianity.
5:07 seconds and you've already made me pause the video to take a step back and google a concept I'd been grappling with for years and never had a name for. Thank you
Well, it looks like anyone and everyone can study the scripture and learn about the truth and have in fact been shown it.
Romans1:19-20
19 For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them. 20 For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world,[a] in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse.
And with further investigation we find that there was a time of ignorance that was pardoned
Acts17:30
The times of ignorance God overlooked, but now he commands all people everywhere to repent,
And that Pelagius was right!
Acts 17:28
Thank you for the great video!
Proverbs27:17
I look forward to watching more videos
Also
2 Tim 2:15
St Francis of Assisi is one of my favorites.
Its so funny that the subtitles said "leo bay" when you said liu bei lmao
The true heretic was St Augustine and Christianity never recovered from his influence.
Finally the Algorithm sent me somewhere decent. I appreciate the concept of higher thinking then dogma. Good video, just subscribed.
I can safely say I was a Protestant Christian for 10 plus years but entirely unaware of Pelagius or much of the actual history of the religion/church. Still happier out of it but welcome learning about pieces of history I had never encountered before. Thank you Ocean.
Four of Pelagius works have recently been rediscovered. Ali Bonner did her doctoral dissertation on his works comparing them to the charges brought against him in Augustine’s and other church writings. Her conclusion is that Pelagius was a scapegoat for a smear campaign for Augustine to introduce his take on the doctrine of original sin and doctrine of predestination to be introduced into the church as orthodoxy. The book is called The Myth of Pelagianism by Dr Ali Bonner.
For me it was Origen and his universalist belief that all things will eventually reunite with God. That and finding out about how much the Bible had been tweaked to fit the views of the early Christian community and the number of outright lies like the additions to the book of Enoch, the editing of Josephus and the 'new' ending to Mark's Gospel. I had been a pagan prior to being evangelised and I finally gave up on what was to me an alien belief structure and returned to the arms of the Goddess. I just wish it hadn't cost me so much of my life.
Great vids. I 'm questioning my faith in Christ. Pelagius sounds interesting. Would love to chat with you directly.
Very interesting. This resonates with a lot of my own thoughts lately.
I hadn’t heard of Pelagius however the same questions which lead you out of being a southern baptist are the same things which lead me out. Also landed on paganism for a similar reason. It simply made more sense to me.
I like this video format better 👍🏻
As a former Irish Catholic what is not known is that the Church in Ireland was always different from the Roman Church as Rome never got to Ireland it was brought via the Gulf Stream from North of Africa etc. and a blend of local faith.. It was such a problem that they had to forcefully integrate the Church .. starting the 12th Century peaking at the 14th etc. etc. There was no "dark ages" in Ireland it was known in the Roman Western Empire as the land of Saint and Scholars at the time this was simply due to Saint Patrick witnessing the fall of Rome after returning and witnessing the illiterate rates risng in the UK and France where he studied.. ie he put writing as central to preserving knowledge.. ... HOWEVER as the Church seperate from Rome flourished in Ireland as a result.. this is all veriable with legitimate historic searches... You had some interesting things with the "celtic Church " referred to by some..
ie Priest could marry there was women as priest Bridget was a bishop of Rome.. ... fact go check .now what is the point .. we "Irish" had heresy for worshiping at holy wells etc. and therefore it gave "Saints" to the Catholic church even today they Catholic can "pray" to saints and not God..and its allowed ..even names of Older Gods got brought into the "Saint " bracket .. St. Bridget .. etc. etc.. The laws of the "pagans" was covered in 12 books available today by St. Patrick known as the Brehon Laws.. outling equal rights of women children innocence etc.. etc. again go check that.. anyway .. Ireland had an interesting mixture.. ALL the towns etc.. we setup by the Vikings mostly Norwegian and Danish so his output .. was pretty much part of the "problem" of the "Holy Roman Catholic Church" and the church in Ireland was for themselves was called "Catholic" etc.. anyway we are all children of Ash .. may your Wyrd be wonderous and fruitful .. :) And by the way phonetic spelling is SEE lest ti US .... :) And yes we are taught Irish Gaelic in schools growing up and there is PLENTY in the language to consult to but not much translated into English.. unfortunately as the grip of the "Holy Roman Catholic Church" got more and more power in Ireland ...well we all know where that ended up ...
Never heard of you before this video. I really enjoyed the philosophical outlook you have on things, it's the same reasoning that has me in a perpetual state of spiritual struggle. As a loyal man and as one who has felt "god" as a Christian i find myself always flirting with the idea of Christianity but as a Pagan and again one who has felt this same source of spirituality with the faith i have practiced for years it always boils down to the catastrophic levels of philosophical error made within Christianity. Every time I try to reason my way back into faith I can not, I'm only left with the confusion of wondering why part of me wants to go back... I've yet to find a pure and authentic reason but yet the idea remains. Honestly I feel that I've spent more time in this spiritual limbo than living an authentic faith as I truly wish to do.
tfw the british saved you from christanity
Pelagius made me a real Christian
Have you heard the tragedy of Darth Pelagius the Wise?
It's a story that Augustine would never tell you.