Thank you for the video. We are the Hungarian sellers of this machine that you have mentioned. We have asked the manufacturer to set the pressure to 9 bar as default.
As a modded GC (2006) user I can say that I'm happy to see these popping up. Gaggia might actually put their shit together and release something that's actually "Pro"-worthy and not just small modifications in a two-decade old chassis. However, I'm not entirely sure that I'd trust a Chinese brand with such a short history. I had so many repairs and mods done to my machine, so many parts were necessary both new and used that were abundant and easily purchasable. It will take a lot of time for this new guy to get the same level of market penetration and 3rd party support. In any case, thanks for the videos as always.
We have been working with this manufacturer for 5 years. A very fair company. They develop new machines much faster than the Europeans. We need to service more Lelit machines than these Chinese machines. We have been selling the previous model for 3 years. You can hardly see machines for sale online.
You’re right in a way. But I bet you anything that your gaggia classic will last you forever. How long is this going to last heating up and down heating up heating down. Gaggia will last forever. I have to say that it’s about 600 dollars. If you do multiple shots per day this will die. By, it packs a lot that’s what I’m scared about.
Hey Asser, Great presentation and very descriptive! I am just starting out in the coffee world and growing my knowledge slowly. I'm fortunate to have found your channel as one of my tools for learning more about coffee.
I have the same machine also from MiiCoffee, I didn't adjust the water flow, they mentioned best not to. I did noticed the 3 hole is very weak on steam I had trouble steaming the milk. They are sending me a single hole as well, which should help a lot with steaming and controlling to learn on. I really glad it has PID and pressure bar, help you learn about grind and taste. My biggest CON on this machine is the water Distribution, the single down pour doesn't distribute the water well and I tend to have a lot weak water flow on some parts of the puck. I also upgraded to the IMS shower screen, which helped a little. Don't get me wrong.. GREAT VALUE for what you're getting. I think it's a great machine to start and learn on!
Great to hear! You must be one of the first customers in the US. I always use a puck screen - that helps to keep the shower screen clean and also reduces the risk of channeling. The shower screen is pretty similar to other entry level models and best practice is flushing/brushing between shots if you don't use a puck screen.
@@coffeechronicler Thanks, Yes I think i was the first one to order when they went on sale. I agree the puck screen is a must, however the water distribution is it’s weakest point, GCPE has 4 ports where water is distributed to different quarter area of the brew head, this only has one and relies on the resistance of the Shower screen to distribute water. I would post a photo but I can’t post it here. If they used a similar system as the GCP it would be a killer machine. I do think it’s interesting they didn’t go with a OPV valve but has a 3 way solenoid valve.
No. The same amount of water is dispensed regardless of the setting. The timer is simply the wait time before extraction begins. FYI, the “pre infusion” is at full pressure so the grounds are not fully saturated.
Couldn’t the water debit screw on the bottom he mentioned theoretically be used like a flow control knob? If that’s the case you could build something that sticks out in the front and hugs the screw on the bottom and use it like a slayer mod. Hopefully this gets some buzz because this would be intriguing.
I bought one a few weeks ago. In China, it is sold under a different brand. I use it in the camper. It is small and heats fast. Compared to my home high-end machines, it works surprisingly well. I have changed the portafilter and bottomless handle. It is capable of producing pretty good shots. Milk steaming is kinda slow, but doable with a little practice. I don't know how long the machine will last, but I would say it is worth the cost. btw. there is user adjustable OPV. It is next to the group hed on the back left. You can adjust to 9 bars easily.
Exactly my experience so far. However, the little screw is for water debit. It will affect the pump pressure so you can get closer to 9 bars, but it's not an OPV. The pump will still kick up to 15 bars when backflushing or faced with really fine grind size.
It can be converted to 9 Bar pressure very easily. It can also be done at home. Sorry, but this is written in Hungarian.@@coffeechronicler th-cam.com/video/nCqenXQQf-Q/w-d-xo.html
@@TheRealSwidi I think it’s 1,700 watts when it’s heating, then it goes lower. Just need to make the coffee fast and turn off. 5~6,minutes and I’m done.
Two questions: 1.) Do you think you would get a better shot by lowering the pressure closer to 9 bars by further adjusting other variables (grind size, flow rate, etc.)? 2.) How consistent is the temperature while brewing? You have it set to 96 degrees, but does it drop as you pull a shot, and by how much?
I have the Turin Legato V2 arriving this week. Per @magnificoas388 excellent observations posted a month ago: 1. Hoping pre-infusion issues are solved in v2. Aside from full pressure, the other pre-infusion issue was puck pressure was released from the group when the pump was turned off, thus destroying the puck. May need to install a 3way valve to prevent that pressure release. Or instead, prepared to install a dimmer solution, then just running manual shots. 2. Espresso Outlet suggests 9 bar OPV has been added but we will see. Should be an easy fix if not. 3. Espresso Outlet & MiiCoffee are both supporting parts supply for USA. 4. May need to get creative with alternative shower screen. In addition, will likely add a QuickMill Pulsor to help quiet the pump sound& smooth the pressure flow.
youtube did not give me a notification about this video, i just double checked after having this pop up in my recommended list i am subscribed and had all notifications on
Yes, it's coming in October. I think Miicoffee will ship to Denmark either via Amazon in Europe or their own webshop. As for European retailers I only know about AVX in Hungary.
Thank you so much for this review. I had no idea a product like this existed. To me this certainly appears to be a budget king. I always question the safety of consumption when things are made in China though. Have you gotten a chance to look at the insides?
My biggest concern is just the longevity of the parts compared to more tried and true options like a gaggia. But also on paper this is such a great value it's really hard to recommend other single boiler entry level machines over it, especially ones that dont come stock with a PID
It's new in the US market but since it's been around in Europe and Asia for a while (in a slighly different iteration), I don't think there will be too many unexpected errors. But yes, single boilers definitely feel dated in this era.
We have been selling the older model for 3 years. No problem with these machines and the part is much cheaper than for European machines. It also has an Italian Ulka brand pump.
We jointly developed the predecessor model with the manufacturer. There was one 550ml boiler in it. Then came the idea to make a Dual boiler machine. This coffee machine can do about as much as the QM Silvano, but at half the price.@@coffeechronicler
@@avx1981 Technicly it is not dual boiler! I know Breville BE serving for 5 years. That's not approval on longevity. Though this machine has lot to say on entry level market despite of its nonameless and thermostability issues.
Thank you for your fantastic presentation. I've been grappling with the decision between the Gaggia Classic Pro Evo and this machine for quite some time now. Any advice on the pros and cons, especially compared to the GCP, would be greatly appreciated. Looking for some insights before making the final call. Thanks a bunch!
The GCP Evo is a single boiler dual-purpose without PID, so I don't see how it stands a chance against a machine with those features. If you're not familiar with espresso, it might seem like minor technical details, but it's not. In daily use, it makes a huge difference in workflow and consistency.
Well, Turin Legato (Apex, etc.) is quite impressive. I won't tell the "pros" here but the 4 main "cons" I detected: 1/ pre-infusion is at full pressure destroying the puck, (solution would be to implement some new knob dimming pi pressure and launch the extraction in a smooth way) 2/ no OPV (but this should be not difficult to implement for next version), 3/ spare pieces? where? 4/ weak shower screen, Former version of the Legato had a HUGE flaw wrt pre-infusion. And they fixed it (but see point 2 above, remaining flaw) because famous people complaining recently on YT !! This model is quite old and spread in Asia etc. There are factories for grinders and different factories for espresso machines. I will wait, not bying until they fix the 3 first main "cons". But let's say it is not "difficult" to implement an OPV and a dimmer to control the pression out of the pump. That should be a hack to controll manually pre-infusion. So maybe RIP gaggia classic,..., or evolve quickly, I mean true "evo v2".
I have the Turin Legato v2 arriving this week: 1. Hoping pre-infusion issues are solved. Prepared to install a dimmer solution if needed, then just running a manual shot. Other issue was puck pressure was released during pre-infusion when the pump was turned of, destroying the puck. May need to install a 3way valve to prevent that pressure release. Prepared to install a dimmer solution if needed, then just running a manual shots. 2. Espresso Outlet suggests 9bar OPV has been added but we will see. Should be an easy fix if not. 3. Espresso Outlet & MiiCoffee are both supporting parts supply. 4. May need to get creative.
I think this will be what I end up putting the gaggiuno software. Even the regular price CAD is unbeatable for having dual heaters for water and steam. Standard portafilter size is an amazing thing to boot. Finally a worthy, budget handyman upgrade to having gaggiuno on my 150CAD machine lol.
I would make sure to understand that it is not a dual boiler. You can't steam milk and pull a shot at the same time. The thermoblock helps to steam but uses the same boiler for brewing. Gaggia is easily repaired, I'm sure this one is too, but less of a user base to help troubleshoot.
550ml acid-proof boiler + PID: we make the coffee with this. High performance thermoblock: this is used to steam milk. It cannot be used at the same time, because the power consumption would be too high.@@nicholashorswill4052
A few points as takeaways for me. After reviewing the specs online, this model has a stainless steel boiler vs the coated aluminium boiler on the Gaggia. As I am concerned about the aluminium and the coating problems on Gaggia, this is a definate plus for the machine. The other notable I think to think about is the maintenance of this machine. For example, where would I find the gasket replacement for it once the orignal goes ? I might wait a bit for the next gen to se where this all goes.
It looks great, but what is the longevity and repairability? I've just been through the disposible planned obsolescence culture of Breville/Sage. Utterly unimpressive waste of money. Current Amazon reviews of performance of the Apex is not so top of the food chain. I think the downsides of the Gaggia Classic Pro seem small considering the feasibility of a machine that won't have to be thrown out.
Hi! Noticed in the 3:54 min mark, the lcd showed "ECO". Does it go to "eco mode" automatically and if so, did you notice how many minutes it took before going into that mode? Thanks!
I'll stick with my gaggia classic pro. Bottomless portafilter, upgraded my shower screen, 9bar sprin ,new 22 gram basket. My brother's machine doesn't seem to have a great build quality either.8 put that all together for under 700 bucks.
My entry-level machine was a refurbished Gaggia Baby for around $250. I still think that is hard to beat. I replaced the garbage wand tip with a single hole piece for $15 and made some really nice coffees for a couple of years. This machine, especially if they add an adjustable OPV, will truly disrupt the entry level market. I don't have many of these features on my HX machine today.
Sounds similar to the Crossland CC1, but in a fancier case. The CC1 has an OPV, though, and was spec'd by Bill Crossland. It'd be interesting to compare the insides of the two machines, as the prices seem comparable.
@@avx1981 It's been updated multiple times. Anyhow, that's why it would be interesting to see the insides of this new machine. Many machines and grinders of different brand names share many internal parts. For example, if the boiler tops are the same between the Apex and the CC1, then it would be trivial to add the CC1's OPV (which itself is an off-the-shelf part) - and adding an adustable OPV to the Apex would make the machine much more usable and desirable.
Hej Hvor kan man købe den henne? Jeg har længe gået og ikke kunne beslutte mig, Gaggia Classic pro evo eller Rancilio silvia, men måske denne er noget for mig.
@@coffeechroniclertak.. ok, jeg er stadigvæk lidt i tænkeboks over de hvilken af de 2 andre. Så den der er også et godt bud, men måske de andre er nemmere at få fat i.
was excited. but Breville dual boiler is the same price after shipping at least in australia and is a much much better machine. breville comes with compression fittings, 2 boilers with pid and a precision basket along with the potentiometer preinfusion and choice of volumetric or shot timer as well as service centre network... no brainer to go with breville
I have a Dual Boiler and it's a better machine. But in most countries it's going to be 3x the price, so I think there's a different segment for each machine. And then there's also the question of size. BDB is huge, while this has a moderate footprint.
Sorry, I forgot to mention it. It takes around 7-10 minutes, but you can save a couple of minutes if you don't mind running a bit of water through the group.
as a 20 year old Gaggia user I think the big difference is that a Gaggia, Rancillio or others will never let you down. The chance is very small, but if there is something broken, you can run out to the store, get the part that is broken, repair it easily and in less than 2 hours you have the same enjoyable coffee as before. How nice it is that it is possible to make at around the same price this chinese 'PRO' model, it could never outstand the advantages of an old school brand.
gaggia let me down after 10yrs. repair will be more expensive than buying this. the inconsistent coffee and the annoying bleeding the macchine after steaming are part of the past now :)
Thanks for this review. I saw this thing pop up, and didn’t know anything about it. A couple questions- 1) is the PID for both the boiler and steam wand? Or one or the other? Does the probe go to the boiler or group head? 2) can you pull a shot AND steam at the same time? Or just steam after pulling the shot? Thanks!
Hi Brent! The PID is only for the boiler. You can't steam and brew at the same time, even though I have seen that mentioned in some product descriptions online. Not a big deal for a home user, though. I never do that even with a Dual Boiler.
There's probably only one pump. I am thinking they added the thermolock just for longevity in steaming. I had the Kafmasino version of this, and I can confirm that it's usage is as a single boiler.@@justinbouchard
hi Tom! thanks for adding this! It was so close to being a handy man's dream lmao I could honestly see myself just taking my stilosa apart and putting the other boiler inside of this one bahhaha
If you search Kafmasino, you'll see my review. It's the same machine, without the iPad. Too bad it's not a real dual boiler, but what can you do? @@justinbouchard
Don't have any insights about that machine, but it seems to be a similar story with rebranding in different markets. Maybe we'll see it in the Western world.
I tested every new type. For home use, 3148 is the best. We just ordered this type. I didn't like 3148. We wrote to the manufacturer what should be rebuilt.
This looks very tempting. I was recently considering a cafelat robot but it seems hard to ignore this machine when it's at the same price point. My only concern is whether this will have the same longevity as a gaggia or rancilio, whether the parts will be available in the future, & whether the design allows user repairs. I wouldn't want one random thing on this machine to break in four years then have to toss the entire thing
Over emails with Espresso Outlet it sounds like they plan to stock repair parts and they even have an OPV adapter available for modding in their plans.
Anna has a the worst portafilter size on the market for accessories (57 mm) and only a single boiler for brew and steam. So yeah, it's going to be more frustrating.
This espresso machine would sell very well in Europe and France. It offers similar functions to a Lelit but at a better price and finish. Frankly, at less than €500 it would go like hotcakes. As someone who is looking for a machine, it really tempts me. Unfortunately France is far from the State of Washington and if I need repairs or worse to return the machine it will cost me an arm and a leg.
I honestly think it's absurd that Rancillio and Gaggia have refused to add a PID to their single boiler models. They had such a strong market position that i think they absolutely deserve to lose. This machine looks amazing! Could be a bit of a silver bullet.
@@coffeechronicler I'm excited to see how this machine gets updated for sure. I've got an original Df64 that I think is absolutely fine but the gen 2 seems to be a pretty huge upgrade. I wonder if the same will happen to this machine over time. ___ And similarly to the Df64 this could definitely spur on some competition from other manufacturers - would be a good thing for consumers.
@@avx1981 That was read sad thing, as Lelit makes real machines, but yes, these kichen appliance-firms do well...on money-side. And name-always changing-side ;-)
Any thoughts on how this compares with the profitec go? Seems they have similar features, but the profitec has external OPV adjustment. Their website also shows it only comes with 110-120v so would be annoying if you needed a transformer for 220-240v
My impression is that you need to do some purging as part of the GO workflow, which for me is a major deal breaker with a machine at that price point. But don't have first hand experience with the GO. Obviously, Profitec machines look way better and are also more expensive.
@@coffeechronicler This machine has the same buttons and Screen than the Lelit, Rancilio are black square switches. They moved the pressure indicator only and put the vapor knob. Lelit could be 60% Rancilio, DF is 95% Lelit
hi Asser, had been enjoying and benefited fr your channel as coffee beginner at Asia …. basically a filter person at home, but I do enjoy espresso cuppa when out at cafes. with this introduction you made, will definitely start looking at these type of home machines onwards. do you have any chance to know under which names should I look for if based at Southeast Asia? or anyone here also from the same region would know? thank you 🤎
Intriguing review, @coffeechronicler! I’m in the market for a machine, have followed your vids, Tom’s Coffee Corner, etc… and this machine looks to tick the boxes I’d been disappointed in the GCEP, Lelits, and PGo. (The preinfusion situ is disappointing, tho.) If the choices were (in $USD): Bambino $250 Bambino Plus $400 MiiCoffee Apex $500 which would you choose, value-wise (best bang for the buck, vs money is no obstacle)? In other words, is the BB+ worth $150 over the BB, and do you believe the MCA is worth another $100?
I think they all offer good value at their respective price points. As for BBP vs the Apex, I'd say people who are more into espresso should go for the Apex, while those who prefer milk-drinks, convenience (3 sec warm up) and form factor should go Bambino Plus.
@@coffeechronicler thanks for your answer, I know are different type of machines, do you think it worth buy this one or get the solid barista perffeta plus that is way cheaper and has kind the same features, (except the pid and the boiler and thermoblock that comes in miicoffeeapex) Both have 3 way solenoid valve, temperature select, good steam wand, comes with good tamper, pressure gauge, are kind of quick start, what are your thoughts
Unrelated, but you're likely the one to know. I'm looking for the best quality small hand grinder, specifically one that fits inside a standard aeropress. Seems I can only find 1zpresso q2s or timemore c2 (or so Lance Hendrick claims)
Given that I own a Lelit Elizabeth, I think this one looks pretty good...pretty similar, in fact, to the Elizabeth, Anna, and Victoria. For those of us with limited space, eliminating, most if not all E61 group head machines, this might be ideal. I'd like to see that preinfusion option programmable as it is on my Elizabeth.
This machine looks great value for money. The only issue is lack of steam pressure is some versions. Pluse brew temp fluctuations despite of PID. Totally it can and has one competitor. GC for sure.
We would be very happy for a closer cooperation. Together, new machines could be created in a nicer outer box. I will also ask the guys at Kafmasino.@@coffeechronicler
Hi, I have one since 2 years in Hungary and I love it. But I guess mine some older model, back in those days there were no manometer version. But, the pre-infusion is actually for fixed 3 seconds. And yhea, it was and still is an excellent value for the money. One of my favourite part is the water reservoir. Unfortunately you can't see it much on this video. But the point is that you can remove or refill in-place from the top as well and it does not use those ugly hoses like the big Italian brands.I couldn't name any downside, only few nitpicking improvement options, which would probably make it more expensive anyways. (properly programmable pre-infusion, manually adjustable OPV... and that's it actually :D)
The pressure bar is a very personal thing, it was set by Italian companies as it worked best for them with the dark roast low dose espresso in Italy. Try to play with pressure, I have coffee’s that are better with 6 bar then with 8 or 9. And visa versa, so many factors are in play now so it’s impossible to say one is better than the other
Koryaiko is the distributor in the PH but the brand is Gemilai. The main manufacturer is Guangdong Shunde Corrima Electrical Appliances Co., Ltd. in China. I've been trying to source this machine from them to North America since it became popular for small to medium coffee shops in the the PH a few years back, especially their CRM3200. Good to hear Miicoffee is offering it with the 120v option since it's mostly 220v out of the factory. I think Espresso Outlet in MI, USA offers the same machine under the Legato name.
This machine has a huge boiler capacity 500ml. So this can make excellent thermal stability. The GCP has a small 80ml boiler prone to instabilities even with PID because in a 1 to 2 ratio you refill half of capacity with fresh cold water . The GCP also have aluminium boiler in contact to stainless steel group which causes corrosion. In my opinion GCP is a big hoax. But GCP has a massive propaganda and no one tells the truth. Big money involved. In conclusion Miicoffee is a hell of machine far more advanced than GCP and most more affordable than Silvia Pro X. About China makers, everyone buy Iphones made in China and no one complains about Cheers,
Won't confirm or deny the 'sales pitch' claim, however this does appear to be the first review outside of forums on this machine. So definitely will have to wait and see. I'm torn because I finally ordered a Gaggia classic evo pro for black friday and eventually plan on PID mod, but this machine is so close in price I would have maybe held off if I'd known. However, Gaggia Classic is tried and true and well known. This isn't at least in the US market. Maybe it will give Gaggia a kick in the ass to install a PID in a stock machine.
I have this machine. I think the review is pretty accurate. My machine came with bunch of “gifts” too. Not I want any of them. Just saying. I think the machine is pretty good bang for your buck. At least it uses standard 58mm group head. I was considering between Lelit and this. Porta filter size made the choice in the end. Time will tell how long it will last though…
Thank you for the video. We are the Hungarian sellers of this machine that you have mentioned.
We have asked the manufacturer to set the pressure to 9 bar as default.
Great to hear from you! That sounds promising for the future.
They need to fire the guy who put + on the left instead of right
Didn't notice it until now, but you got a point. They could also get a new guy to do the icons while we're at it..
lol
It’s chineasium that’s why they print opposite.
As a modded GC (2006) user I can say that I'm happy to see these popping up. Gaggia might actually put their shit together and release something that's actually "Pro"-worthy and not just small modifications in a two-decade old chassis. However, I'm not entirely sure that I'd trust a Chinese brand with such a short history. I had so many repairs and mods done to my machine, so many parts were necessary both new and used that were abundant and easily purchasable. It will take a lot of time for this new guy to get the same level of market penetration and 3rd party support. In any case, thanks for the videos as always.
Good points! And thanks.
We have been working with this manufacturer for 5 years. A very fair company. They develop new machines much faster than the Europeans. We need to service more Lelit machines than these Chinese machines. We have been selling the previous model for 3 years. You can hardly see machines for sale online.
@@avx1981 True, never even heard this machine.
You’re right in a way. But I bet you anything that your gaggia classic will last you forever. How long is this going to last heating up and down heating up heating down. Gaggia will last forever. I have to say that it’s about 600 dollars. If you do multiple shots per day this will die. By, it packs a lot that’s what I’m scared about.
@@Maybaby1959A test can be done to verify that. Until then, I think the competition to the European products is a good thing .
Hey Asser, Great presentation and very descriptive! I am just starting out in the coffee world and growing my knowledge slowly. I'm fortunate to have found your channel as one of my tools for learning more about coffee.
I have the same machine also from MiiCoffee, I didn't adjust the water flow, they mentioned best not to. I did noticed the 3 hole is very weak on steam I had trouble steaming the milk. They are sending me a single hole as well, which should help a lot with steaming and controlling to learn on. I really glad it has PID and pressure bar, help you learn about grind and taste. My biggest CON on this machine is the water Distribution, the single down pour doesn't distribute the water well and I tend to have a lot weak water flow on some parts of the puck. I also upgraded to the IMS shower screen, which helped a little. Don't get me wrong.. GREAT VALUE for what you're getting. I think it's a great machine to start and learn on!
Have your considered using a puck screen? It would solve the water distribution issue and will keep the machine internals cleaner.
Yes I have 3 different kind with 3 different thickness and layout it doesn’t solve it, help and can only improve it a little
Great to hear! You must be one of the first customers in the US. I always use a puck screen - that helps to keep the shower screen clean and also reduces the risk of channeling. The shower screen is pretty similar to other entry level models and best practice is flushing/brushing between shots if you don't use a puck screen.
@@coffeechronicler Thanks, Yes I think i was the first one to order when they went on sale. I agree the puck screen is a must, however the water distribution is it’s weakest point, GCPE has 4 ports where water is distributed to different quarter area of the brew head, this only has one and relies on the resistance of the Shower screen to distribute water. I would post a photo but I can’t post it here. If they used a similar system as the GCP it would be a killer machine. I do think it’s interesting they didn’t go with a OPV valve but has a 3 way solenoid valve.
I'm really curious how did you adjust the flow rate, I would like to lower it to 240ml per min as well
@@coffeechronicler
You can set for how many seconds the per-infusion will run water by holding down the manual button!
No. The same amount of water is dispensed regardless of the setting. The timer is simply the wait time before extraction begins. FYI, the “pre infusion” is at full pressure so the grounds are not fully saturated.
Couldn’t the water debit screw on the bottom he mentioned theoretically be used like a flow control knob? If that’s the case you could build something that sticks out in the front and hugs the screw on the bottom and use it like a slayer mod. Hopefully this gets some buzz because this would be intriguing.
I bought one a few weeks ago. In China, it is sold under a different brand. I use it in the camper. It is small and heats fast. Compared to my home high-end machines, it works surprisingly well. I have changed the portafilter and bottomless handle. It is capable of producing pretty good shots. Milk steaming is kinda slow, but doable with a little practice. I don't know how long the machine will last, but I would say it is worth the cost. btw. there is user adjustable OPV. It is next to the group hed on the back left. You can adjust to 9 bars easily.
Exactly my experience so far. However, the little screw is for water debit. It will affect the pump pressure so you can get closer to 9 bars, but it's not an OPV. The pump will still kick up to 15 bars when backflushing or faced with really fine grind size.
It can be converted to 9 Bar pressure very easily. It can also be done at home. Sorry, but this is written in Hungarian.@@coffeechronicler th-cam.com/video/nCqenXQQf-Q/w-d-xo.html
In the camper? How much wattage does this thing need? 🤔
@@TheRealSwidi I think it’s 1,700 watts when it’s heating, then it goes lower. Just need to make the coffee fast and turn off. 5~6,minutes and I’m done.
Two questions:
1.) Do you think you would get a better shot by lowering the pressure closer to 9 bars by further adjusting other variables (grind size, flow rate, etc.)?
2.) How consistent is the temperature while brewing? You have it set to 96 degrees, but does it drop as you pull a shot, and by how much?
I have the Turin Legato V2 arriving this week. Per @magnificoas388 excellent observations posted a month ago:
1. Hoping pre-infusion issues are solved in v2. Aside from full pressure, the other pre-infusion issue was puck pressure was released from the group when the pump was turned off, thus destroying the puck. May need to install a 3way valve to prevent that pressure release. Or instead, prepared to install a dimmer solution, then just running manual shots.
2. Espresso Outlet suggests 9 bar OPV has been added but we will see. Should be an easy fix if not.
3. Espresso Outlet & MiiCoffee are both supporting parts supply for USA.
4. May need to get creative with alternative shower screen.
In addition, will likely add a QuickMill Pulsor to help quiet the pump sound& smooth the pressure flow.
youtube did not give me a notification about this video, i just double checked after having this pop up in my recommended list
i am subscribed and had all notifications on
Hm, that's mysterious. Thanks for the heads up!
can you make a vid exploring the internal components? this machine seems like a better way to go than the bambino breville.
Hi Asser - Looks like there is a Turin Legato Version 2 on the way. Do you know if they will be avaliable in Denmark/Europe?
Yes, it's coming in October. I think Miicoffee will ship to Denmark either via Amazon in Europe or their own webshop. As for European retailers I only know about AVX in Hungary.
Thank you so much for this review. I had no idea a product like this existed. To me this certainly appears to be a budget king. I always question the safety of consumption when things are made in China though. Have you gotten a chance to look at the insides?
Sage/Breville machines are made in China, parts of Decent are also, as are many other brands. It's a non-issue.
My biggest concern is just the longevity of the parts compared to more tried and true options like a gaggia. But also on paper this is such a great value it's really hard to recommend other single boiler entry level machines over it, especially ones that dont come stock with a PID
It's new in the US market but since it's been around in Europe and Asia for a while (in a slighly different iteration), I don't think there will be too many unexpected errors. But yes, single boilers definitely feel dated in this era.
That's in Chinese market for a while not Europe. It's basiclly Gemilai CRM3007G which rebranded differently in diffrent zones.
We have been selling the older model for 3 years. No problem with these machines and the part is much cheaper than for European machines. It also has an Italian Ulka brand pump.
We jointly developed the predecessor model with the manufacturer. There was one 550ml boiler in it. Then came the idea to make a Dual boiler machine. This coffee machine can do about as much as the QM Silvano, but at half the price.@@coffeechronicler
@@avx1981 Technicly it is not dual boiler! I know Breville BE serving for 5 years. That's not approval on longevity. Though this machine has lot to say on entry level market despite of its nonameless and thermostability issues.
Thank you for your fantastic presentation. I've been grappling with the decision between the Gaggia Classic Pro Evo and this machine for quite some time now. Any advice on the pros and cons, especially compared to the GCP, would be greatly appreciated. Looking for some insights before making the final call. Thanks a bunch!
The GCP Evo is a single boiler dual-purpose without PID, so I don't see how it stands a chance against a machine with those features. If you're not familiar with espresso, it might seem like minor technical details, but it's not. In daily use, it makes a huge difference in workflow and consistency.
Well, Turin Legato (Apex, etc.) is quite impressive. I won't tell the "pros" here but the 4 main "cons" I detected:
1/ pre-infusion is at full pressure destroying the puck, (solution would be to implement some new knob dimming pi pressure and launch the extraction in a smooth way)
2/ no OPV (but this should be not difficult to implement for next version),
3/ spare pieces? where?
4/ weak shower screen,
Former version of the Legato had a HUGE flaw wrt pre-infusion. And they fixed it (but see point 2 above, remaining flaw) because famous people complaining recently on YT !!
This model is quite old and spread in Asia etc. There are factories for grinders and different factories for espresso machines.
I will wait, not bying until they fix the 3 first main "cons".
But let's say it is not "difficult" to implement an OPV and a dimmer to control the pression out of the pump. That should be a hack to controll manually pre-infusion.
So maybe RIP gaggia classic,..., or evolve quickly, I mean true "evo v2".
I have the Turin Legato v2 arriving this week:
1. Hoping pre-infusion issues are solved. Prepared to install a dimmer solution if needed, then just running a manual shot. Other issue was puck pressure was released during pre-infusion when the pump was turned of, destroying the puck. May need to install a 3way valve to prevent that pressure release. Prepared to install a dimmer solution if needed, then just running a manual shots.
2. Espresso Outlet suggests 9bar OPV has been added but we will see. Should be an easy fix if not.
3. Espresso Outlet & MiiCoffee are both supporting parts supply.
4. May need to get creative.
those kruve glass cups are sooo nice!
I think this will be what I end up putting the gaggiuno software. Even the regular price CAD is unbeatable for having dual heaters for water and steam.
Standard portafilter size is an amazing thing to boot.
Finally a worthy, budget handyman upgrade to having gaggiuno on my 150CAD machine lol.
I would make sure to understand that it is not a dual boiler. You can't steam milk and pull a shot at the same time. The thermoblock helps to steam but uses the same boiler for brewing. Gaggia is easily repaired, I'm sure this one is too, but less of a user base to help troubleshoot.
550ml acid-proof boiler + PID: we make the coffee with this. High performance thermoblock: this is used to steam milk. It cannot be used at the same time, because the power consumption would be too high.@@nicholashorswill4052
So where do you buy this machine in Europe or more specifically in Denmark? I only see them in the US or China.
A few points as takeaways for me. After reviewing the specs online, this model has a stainless steel boiler vs the coated aluminium boiler on the Gaggia. As I am concerned about the aluminium and the coating problems on Gaggia, this is a definate plus for the machine. The other notable I think to think about is the maintenance of this machine. For example, where would I find the gasket replacement for it once the orignal goes ? I might wait a bit for the next gen to se where this all goes.
*BLACK FRIDAY DEAL* miicoffee.shop/products/miicoffee-apex-espresso-machine?sca_ref=2683737.1hBgxWk5At&sca_source=yt
Thank you for sharing with us. This is an interesting one. Speaking of Miicoffee, any chance you will get to check out the D40+?
Thanks. I haven't tried the D40, but maybe in the future.
The float in the drip tray should be on every machine. It's crazy how my cheap DeLonghi machine has a float, but much more expensive machines don't.
It looks great, but what is the longevity and repairability? I've just been through the disposible planned obsolescence culture of Breville/Sage. Utterly unimpressive waste of money. Current Amazon reviews of performance of the Apex is not so top of the food chain. I think the downsides of the Gaggia Classic Pro seem small considering the feasibility of a machine that won't have to be thrown out.
Fantastic ! I was looking for a new cheap option while aboard. Liked and suscribed
Hi! Noticed in the 3:54 min mark, the lcd showed "ECO". Does it go to "eco mode" automatically and if so, did you notice how many minutes it took before going into that mode? Thanks!
20mins 😊
The flow adjusting screw. Which way to turn to reduce the flow?
is it eu plug and voltage?
I'll stick with my gaggia classic pro. Bottomless portafilter, upgraded my shower screen, 9bar sprin ,new 22 gram basket. My brother's machine doesn't seem to have a great build quality either.8 put that all together for under 700 bucks.
My entry-level machine was a refurbished Gaggia Baby for around $250. I still think that is hard to beat. I replaced the garbage wand tip with a single hole piece for $15 and made some really nice coffees for a couple of years. This machine, especially if they add an adjustable OPV, will truly disrupt the entry level market. I don't have many of these features on my HX machine today.
ive got the gcp with preinstalled pid for $275, im learning to make some simple designs. what will single hole steamwand give me? :)
Sounds similar to the Crossland CC1, but in a fancier case. The CC1 has an OPV, though, and was spec'd by Bill Crossland. It'd be interesting to compare the insides of the two machines, as the prices seem comparable.
CC1 looks interesting, but seems to have very limited distribution. I never ran into it in the wild.
@@coffeechronicler I think that the machines are only available in the USA/Canada.
Very old development. Minimum 10 years.
@@avx1981 It's been updated multiple times. Anyhow, that's why it would be interesting to see the insides of this new machine. Many machines and grinders of different brand names share many internal parts. For example, if the boiler tops are the same between the Apex and the CC1, then it would be trivial to add the CC1's OPV (which itself is an off-the-shelf part) - and adding an adustable OPV to the Apex would make the machine much more usable and desirable.
Does this machine have a 3 way valve? Or does it need it?
Hej
Hvor kan man købe den henne? Jeg har længe gået og ikke kunne beslutte mig, Gaggia Classic pro evo eller Rancilio silvia, men måske denne er noget for mig.
Den Ungarske forhandler AVX er umiddelbart mit bedste bud i EU
@@coffeechroniclertak..
ok, jeg er stadigvæk lidt i tænkeboks over de hvilken af de 2 andre. Så den der er også et godt bud, men måske de andre er nemmere at få fat i.
wow. is this it. finally gaggia and silvia can actually start working and upgrade their shit together
was excited. but Breville dual boiler is the same price after shipping at least in australia and is a much much better machine. breville comes with compression fittings, 2 boilers with pid and a precision basket along with the potentiometer preinfusion and choice of volumetric or shot timer as well as service centre network... no brainer to go with breville
I have a Dual Boiler and it's a better machine. But in most countries it's going to be 3x the price, so I think there's a different segment for each machine. And then there's also the question of size. BDB is huge, while this has a moderate footprint.
How is the breville so cheap in Australia?!
@@cben86Breville is an Australian company
Sorry if I missed it - but about how long does it take to come to temp?
About 7-10 minutes. I forgot to mention it. You can get away with pulling a dark roast a bit before that if you run a preheat flush.
I already have Flair58, wondering if going for this legato is an upgrade?
Very difficult to compare the two. Apex is only an upgrade if you want milk drinks and a traditional workflow.
Not even close, this is a Chinese Knockoff, you have better flow control with the flair
I have have an offer out to buy a rancillio Silva for $425… would you recommend this over a Silva?
Definitely!
Much better than the Silvia. That is not a good construction. We have listed it from the selection.
Maybe I missed it in the video.. How long does it take to heat up?
Sorry, I forgot to mention it. It takes around 7-10 minutes, but you can save a couple of minutes if you don't mind running a bit of water through the group.
10 minutes is enough.
If I can get the Black Friday deal, I'm going to pre-order the Turin Legato which looks like it's basically the same machine, but for the U.S. market.
Both are for the US market. I believe they are identical.
I managed to get the $200 off coupon code. I swear that was the fastest transaction I’ve ever made in my life.
@@biondolg1dude where!?
as a 20 year old Gaggia user I think the big difference is that a Gaggia, Rancillio or others will never let you down. The chance is very small, but if there is something broken, you can run out to the store, get the part that is broken, repair it easily and in less than 2 hours you have the same enjoyable coffee as before. How nice it is that it is possible to make at around the same price this chinese 'PRO' model, it could never outstand the advantages of an old school brand.
gaggia let me down after 10yrs. repair will be more expensive than buying this. the inconsistent coffee and the annoying bleeding the macchine after steaming are part of the past now :)
Thanks for this review. I saw this thing pop up, and didn’t know anything about it.
A couple questions-
1) is the PID for both the boiler and steam wand? Or one or the other? Does the probe go to the boiler or group head?
2) can you pull a shot AND steam at the same time? Or just steam after pulling the shot?
Thanks!
Hi Brent! The PID is only for the boiler. You can't steam and brew at the same time, even though I have seen that mentioned in some product descriptions online. Not a big deal for a home user, though. I never do that even with a Dual Boiler.
oh gosh I'm glad I read all these comments and learned this 😂 I didn't realize you can't steam at the same time as it's brewing 😭
There's probably only one pump. I am thinking they added the thermolock just for longevity in steaming. I had the Kafmasino version of this, and I can confirm that it's usage is as a single boiler.@@justinbouchard
hi Tom! thanks for adding this! It was so close to being a handy man's dream lmao
I could honestly see myself just taking my stilosa apart and putting the other boiler inside of this one bahhaha
If you search Kafmasino, you'll see my review. It's the same machine, without the iPad. Too bad it's not a real dual boiler, but what can you do? @@justinbouchard
I'd love to hear your thoughts on the Gemilai CRM3145. Do you think 2,700W is too much power for a domestic machine?
Don't have any insights about that machine, but it seems to be a similar story with rebranding in different markets. Maybe we'll see it in the Western world.
it is way to much power for a normal residential home breaker ...
@@The_Coffee_Rabbit_Holenot really, it's 11 amps on 240V.
@@sprolever ha ok here its 110v for house so for 220v i guess its ok
I tested every new type. For home use, 3148 is the best. We just ordered this type. I didn't like 3148. We wrote to the manufacturer what should be rebuilt.
This looks very tempting. I was recently considering a cafelat robot but it seems hard to ignore this machine when it's at the same price point. My only concern is whether this will have the same longevity as a gaggia or rancilio, whether the parts will be available in the future, & whether the design allows user repairs. I wouldn't want one random thing on this machine to break in four years then have to toss the entire thing
Agree, while I love high end manual levers like the Robot and F58, they feel very pricy for all the features you get here.
Over emails with Espresso Outlet it sounds like they plan to stock repair parts and they even have an OPV adapter available for modding in their plans.
Bambino plus or this?… I’m so soooo unsure.
does a E61 compatible naked portafilter fit this?
Yes
thanks
Would you recommend it over the Lelit Anna pl41tem with PID?
Maybe that is also a nice espressomaschine for you to evaluate.
Anna has a the worst portafilter size on the market for accessories (57 mm) and only a single boiler for brew and steam. So yeah, it's going to be more frustrating.
Much better than Lelit Anna. All you need to know is that we also participated in the development of the machine.@@coffeechronicler
@@coffeechroniclerа разве Анна не лучший вариант из-за ОПВ -клапана и качества сборки¿
Any update on the pre-infusion, or any suggested fix?
Nothing yet, but think Miicoffee has had conversations with the factory.
Tom's coffee corner just pushed his video where he shows pre infusion duration and -pause settings for his Miicoffee variant machine
So are MiiCoffee and EspressoOulet/Turin just the same people? They sell the exact same stuff just under different brand names.
No, they are separate companies run by different people, but both importing similar products and adding their own branding to them.
This espresso machine would sell very well in Europe and France. It offers similar functions to a Lelit but at a better price and finish. Frankly, at less than €500 it would go like hotcakes. As someone who is looking for a machine, it really tempts me. Unfortunately France is far from the State of Washington and if I need repairs or worse to return the machine it will cost me an arm and a leg.
Once they put a 9 bar OPV and a hot water dispenser in this machine it is unbeatable
Actually the same model(Gemilai 3007L) in China only costs 357dollars
So is no one going to write down what it's called in other countries? What and where would I buy if I lived in the UK?
I honestly think it's absurd that Rancillio and Gaggia have refused to add a PID to their single boiler models.
They had such a strong market position that i think they absolutely deserve to lose.
This machine looks amazing! Could be a bit of a silver bullet.
Exactly my thoughts! Hopefully this can wake them up.
@@coffeechronicler I'm excited to see how this machine gets updated for sure.
I've got an original Df64 that I think is absolutely fine but the gen 2 seems to be a pretty huge upgrade.
I wonder if the same will happen to this machine over time.
___
And similarly to the Df64 this could definitely spur on some competition from other manufacturers - would be a good thing for consumers.
@@coffeechroniclerit will not, as long as it’s owned and designed by Italians it will not change
Then that company will be acquired, just as the Lelit company was also purchased by the Breville group 1 year ago.@@Timberjagi
@@avx1981 That was read sad thing, as Lelit makes real machines, but yes, these kichen appliance-firms do well...on money-side. And name-always changing-side ;-)
Any thoughts on how this compares with the profitec go? Seems they have similar features, but the profitec has external OPV adjustment. Their website also shows it only comes with 110-120v so would be annoying if you needed a transformer for 220-240v
My impression is that you need to do some purging as part of the GO workflow, which for me is a major deal breaker with a machine at that price point. But don't have first hand experience with the GO. Obviously, Profitec machines look way better and are also more expensive.
Profitec is a brand name. Which type?
@@avx1981 the name of the machine is in the question an the answer - it's the profitec 'go'
I was not familiar with this model. It's really not bad.@@luispaulobogliolo19
Do you know how to order these in the UK? Thanks
Not sure if there's a distributor yet. AVX in Hungary are the only ones I know in Europe so far.
It is a Lelit Grace copy with a couple of modifications.
And Lelit Grace is a Rancilio Silvia copy with a couple of modifications ;)
@@coffeechronicler This machine has the same buttons and Screen than the Lelit, Rancilio are black square switches. They moved the pressure indicator only and put the vapor knob. Lelit could be 60% Rancilio, DF is 95% Lelit
@@coffeechronicler Love your review, I think you give very honest reviews! keep up with that!
hi Asser, had been enjoying and benefited fr your channel as coffee beginner at Asia …. basically a filter person at home, but I do enjoy espresso cuppa when out at cafes. with this introduction you made, will definitely start looking at these type of home machines onwards. do you have any chance to know under which names should I look for if based at Southeast Asia? or anyone here also from the same region would know? thank you 🤎
Gemilai, iTop, Koryaiko, Corrima... I'm sure there are probably more.
What is the Name for European market? I am looking to replace my de longhi dedica…
Intriguing review, @coffeechronicler! I’m in the market for a machine, have followed your vids, Tom’s Coffee Corner, etc… and this machine looks to tick the boxes I’d been disappointed in the GCEP, Lelits, and PGo. (The preinfusion situ is disappointing, tho.)
If the choices were (in $USD):
Bambino $250
Bambino Plus $400
MiiCoffee Apex $500
which would you choose, value-wise (best bang for the buck, vs money is no obstacle)?
In other words, is the BB+ worth $150 over the BB, and do you believe the MCA is worth another $100?
I think they all offer good value at their respective price points. As for BBP vs the Apex, I'd say people who are more into espresso should go for the Apex, while those who prefer milk-drinks, convenience (3 sec warm up) and form factor should go Bambino Plus.
does it have 3 way solenoid valve?
Yes
@@coffeechronicler thanks for your answer, I know are different type of machines, do you think it worth buy this one or get the solid barista perffeta plus that is way cheaper and has kind the same features, (except the pid and the boiler and thermoblock that comes in miicoffeeapex)
Both have 3 way solenoid valve, temperature select, good steam wand, comes with good tamper, pressure gauge, are kind of quick start, what are your thoughts
Unrelated, but you're likely the one to know. I'm looking for the best quality small hand grinder, specifically one that fits inside a standard aeropress.
Seems I can only find 1zpresso q2s or timemore c2 (or so Lance Hendrick claims)
Q2s is the best choice, but Timemore Nano and Slim also fit. C2 is too wide to fit.
@@coffeechronicler thank you very much!
Gemilai crm 3007G, for those who wondering what's the factory model number
its 3007L, 3007G has no PID, etc
Given that I own a Lelit Elizabeth, I think this one looks pretty good...pretty similar, in fact, to the Elizabeth, Anna, and Victoria. For those of us with limited space, eliminating, most if not all E61 group head machines, this might be ideal. I'd like to see that preinfusion option programmable as it is on my Elizabeth.
This machine looks great value for money. The only issue is lack of steam pressure is some versions. Pluse brew temp fluctuations despite of PID. Totally it can and has one competitor. GC for sure.
Any idea if this is available anywhere else in Europe outside Hungary?
Not sure currently, but would be surprised if there wouldn't be a few shops selling it soon.
It is on sale in Turkey under brand of Idose. If you are looking for 220v version.
We have the first version, but it's not bad either. We just ordered the latest version.
We would be very happy for a closer cooperation. Together, new machines could be created in a nicer outer box. I will also ask the guys at Kafmasino.@@coffeechronicler
Yes. Spain, Slovakia and Romania.
Hi,
I have one since 2 years in Hungary and I love it. But I guess mine some older model, back in those days there were no manometer version. But, the pre-infusion is actually for fixed 3 seconds. And yhea, it was and still is an excellent value for the money. One of my favourite part is the water reservoir. Unfortunately you can't see it much on this video. But the point is that you can remove or refill in-place from the top as well and it does not use those ugly hoses like the big Italian brands.I couldn't name any downside, only few nitpicking improvement options, which would probably make it more expensive anyways. (properly programmable pre-infusion, manually adjustable OPV... and that's it actually :D)
this or lelit victoria?
Victoria is nicer, the other one is better and cheaper. We also had Black Friday. We sold many more DB1s than Victoria.
The pressure bar is a very personal thing, it was set by Italian companies as it worked best for them with the dark roast low dose espresso in Italy. Try to play with pressure, I have coffee’s that are better with 6 bar then with 8 or 9. And visa versa, so many factors are in play now so it’s impossible to say one is better than the other
Looks like the base for the Kafmasino :P
Note to self:
Comment AFTER watching the video!
Good point! 😅
Yes. They buy the machines from us, and then they convert them very skillfully.
@@avx1981 Interesting machine! I am actually considering it for my mobile cafe :P
What the brand name again for Philippines? Sorry can't get it. It's not you. My fault.
Think it's Koryaiko
Koryaiko is the distributor in the PH but the brand is Gemilai. The main manufacturer is Guangdong Shunde Corrima Electrical Appliances Co., Ltd. in China. I've been trying to source this machine from them to North America since it became popular for small to medium coffee shops in the the PH a few years back, especially their CRM3200. Good to hear Miicoffee is offering it with the 120v option since it's mostly 220v out of the factory. I think Espresso Outlet in MI, USA offers the same machine under the Legato name.
Please please please if someone finds out how to hack or configure the OPV to 9 Bar post a video about it!
Sadly they don't sell to every country in Europe.... Like the Netherlands
sounds like a "meh" to me thus far. I'll keep an eye on it though.
dude you look like captain America!
This machine has a huge boiler capacity 500ml. So this can make excellent thermal stability. The GCP has a small 80ml boiler prone to instabilities even with PID because in a 1 to 2 ratio you refill half of capacity with fresh cold water . The GCP also have aluminium boiler in contact to stainless steel group which causes corrosion. In my opinion GCP is a big hoax. But GCP has a massive propaganda and no one tells the truth. Big money involved. In conclusion Miicoffee is a hell of machine far more advanced than GCP and most more affordable than Silvia Pro X. About China makers, everyone buy Iphones made in China and no one complains about
Cheers,
add to that the microscopical water channels in the solenoid, and the macchine is prone to clogging.
Simple question, simple answer... No.
Mir gefallt es nicht
Seems like a sales pitch not an honest review. Sorry...
I'll wait for papa hoff for a real review
Won't confirm or deny the 'sales pitch' claim, however this does appear to be the first review outside of forums on this machine. So definitely will have to wait and see. I'm torn because I finally ordered a Gaggia classic evo pro for black friday and eventually plan on PID mod, but this machine is so close in price I would have maybe held off if I'd known.
However, Gaggia Classic is tried and true and well known. This isn't at least in the US market. Maybe it will give Gaggia a kick in the ass to install a PID in a stock machine.
I think I covered plenty cons as well as pros. But feel free to wait a few years for a Hoff review ;)
I have this machine. I think the review is pretty accurate. My machine came with bunch of “gifts” too. Not I want any of them. Just saying. I think the machine is pretty good bang for your buck. At least it uses standard 58mm group head. I was considering between Lelit and this. Porta filter size made the choice in the end. Time will tell how long it will last though…