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Podcast 415: Debunking the Serotonin-Depression Theory (with Dr. Joanna Moncrieff)
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 7 ก.ย. 2022
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SHOW DESCRIPTION: In this podcast I talk to psychiatrist, researcher, professor and best-selling author Dr. Joanna Moncrieff about her new study on the chemical imbalance myth, antidepressants as placebo, the causes of depression, how to withdraw from psychiatric drugs, and so much more.
Read Dr. Moncrieff's article here: www.nature.com...
Sign up to Patreon to get access to the full video and audio recording add-free, exclusive downloads, live Q&As, and more: / drcarolineleaf
Read the blog and show notes here: drleaf.com/blo...
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EPISODE HIGHLIGHTS:
3:30 The new study on depression everyone is talking about
5:50 How antidepressants really work
10:00, 29:00 What the drug-centered approach to psychiatry is & why it is so important
12:00, 16:07 Antidepressants compared with placebo: what we see in the randomized controlled trials data
18:50 The chemical imbalance myth: why it is so worrying
20:00 Depression is not as simple as a brain disease
25:00 Why informed consent is a huge issue in psychiatry
27:45 Psychiatric drugs are not harmless, which is why it is so important we understand what they do & how they can affect us
36:50 Young adults & antidepressants
40:05, 52:00 Withdrawing from psychiatric drugs
56:00 Psychedelics & mental health
ADDITIONAL RESOURCES:
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-Facebook: Dr. Caroline Leaf: / drleaf
-Twitter: @drcarolineleaf: / drcarolineleaf
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*DISCLAIMER: This podcast and blog are for educational purposes only and are not intended as medical advice. We always encourage each person to make the decision that seems best for their situation with the guidance of a medical professional.
Some are misdiagnosed as depression when they are dealing with grief and/or trauma. A pill cannot fix a broken heart.
I was prescribed Zoloft when my son died. It just numbed me and delayed processing. I was prescribed it again when my daughter was born, saying I had PND, which was still just grief. I am soooo sick of people saying strong human emotions are depression.
The more powerful a trade, profession or oganisation is, the more it predates upon it's customers. And the human capacity to rationalise, to make excuses, to invent reasons, for what is actually evil, when it's touted by authority, or is in the their interest, is astonishing.
Also misdiagnosed with depression because a benzodiazepine has been prescribed, changing the patient’s brain chemistry and CAUSING depression. Dr Moncrieff says that when a psychotropic drug is introduced it causes the chemical imbalance. 😡 The truth is out there now. Even on the paperwork I get from the pharmacy! I’m mad. I’ve been betrayed. Makes me question every doctor and every hospital. I really need to learn homeopathy because our medical system and pharmaceuticals are killing me and people in my family. One already gone. It is poison and it causes dependency.
@@dichallis4135 thats how pharma sell you products you dont need. and it's astonishing to see the data on drug profits growth during past 10-20 years.
Or even a thyroid problem.
Thank you Dr Leaf for interviewing Prof Joanna Moncrief. I thoroughly enjoyed the interview. I am a family physician with over 35 years experience treating patients with mental health disorders. After reading Dr William Glassners book, written in the late 80s, psychiatry may be hazardous to your health, I became very sceptical about many psychiatry drugs for depression, anxiety and psychosis
For over 20 years I managed to wean most of my patients off their antidepressants and benzos and even their antipsychotics especially if the psychosis was caused by substance abuse. I found teaching people how to cope with life's challenges is a far more effective way of treating depression and anxiety than drugs. Thank you for this excellent video, Dr Rapiti Cape Town
I’m one of the kids who was placed on the most powerful ssri at only 12 years old. I had generalized anxiety because of family dysfunction, a family member loss, my parents fighting all the time and my mom frequently leaving for weeks at a time and my first diagnosis was separation anxiety… of COURSE I developed these! My parents are who needed therapy. They got it as empty nesters and had a full recovery but now all their kids are dealing with the long term health effects of these medications. And they are very serious health effects. I knew this medication was not good for me when it gave me severe depression and instead of looking at the medication, they told my parents I had inattentive ADHD and gave me more drugs. It has always been about the money and we have all been lied to. The world is going to hear my story soon.
I'm sorry to hear what you went through! I honestly believe it's criminal to give these drugs to children.
tell that story, All the stories must be told. This could be bigger than Thalidomide. People's lives have been irreversibly ruined.
I had been on Venlafaxine for 8 years and decided to stop. I went from 125 mg to 0 mg in one year. Everything was fine until i had been without for 3 months. I felt so restless and down i had to get on them again. It was way too fast for me. Now i think i will be without them in 3 years time or so. This is serious stuff. Wish someone had informed me before..
It took me just over six months to come off 200mgs of Prestiq I was taking for PTSD and depression caused by childhood sexual abuse which I had put into my minds vault and lived with alcohol and drug abuse most of my 69 years. I was diagnosed with depression and anxiety about 12 years ago prescribed 200mg of Prestiq. Finally free from the above. I found the carnivore diet helped me greatly. Warm regards Gary
Brilliant. All who are taking psychiatric drugs, such as so called antidepressants and antipsychotics , or who have relatives on these drugs, must reconsider their use and side effects.
I’m glad your putting this information out. I would also like you to have a podcast on the birth control pill. How it misses with your emotions etc.
Dr Moncrieff does everyone with a depression issue a huge service simply by refusing to dumb down the hugely complex issues surrounding mental illness, treatments and recovery factors. Excellent video. ❤😊
I am glad to listen to these findings. I worked with Dr Moncrieff some years ago, an exceptional professional. I loved her approach to treatment with mental health patients.
Great interview. I wish I knew how to overcome TH-cam's algorithms to have found this awhile back when I was researching Ketamine. I would never had done that treatment. It was an awful traumatic experience that still haunts me.
I have had chronic depression for 34 years, on medication most of those years. I decided to stop medication for a while. I live a blessed life there is nothing going on emotionally or otherwise to cause me to feel this way. So what do I do now? I have seen psychologists, psychiatrists, been in hospital many times. Medication is always their answer and talking therapy. I’m at a loss 😢
Walking, running, eating healthy vegetables and fruits. Also eliminate ultra processed foods and talk to others.
There are maybe different therapies to try where you live. The outcome from talktherapy must depend on who you are talking to? Maybe if you find a therapist that is right for you your depression will start to fade ? Don't give up finding help.
Have you processed your childhood? Have you looked into trauma therapy like EMDR? Have you done shadow work? Sometimes we have to embrace our darkness.
That's a lovely fireplace in Dr. Moncrieff's home.
Agreed. Life is not all about mental health ! And two shades of blue ! ( no pun intended.)
♥️♥️♥️♥️♥️♥️♥️♥️♥️♥️♥️
#Day 4 off of antidepressants now all this information is just pouring in #Thank-you #Thank-you .
#The fog is lifting these pills just stopped me feeling & thinking & making me feel sick daily.
What a relief could this be menopause as I am in my late 50’s or childhood & or adult trauma or family hereditary mental health .
This was so good. I’ve been off of Celexa for 4 weeks. It has been an ordeal.
How are you doing now, seven months later? I hope well.
8 months and I finally had "proper" emotional response to MUSIC and a death , been like jumping off a train.
It’s So good to have this information to share with others. So many ppl have no idea how ssri’s work in in the body /brain. Much needed overdue factual science 🧬 being shared here with the public. Thank you !!
Thank you Dr Caroline Leaf and Dr Joanne Moncrieff for an insightful and hard hitting interview. I have seen the cycle you mention play out time and time again with my family. Your revelations are true and have been my belief for years based on what I have seen play-out all my life. I would love for you to continue the conversation around solutions for coming off these drugs because the medical professionals involved in my family’s care advocate that they need to be on these drugs for life. How then can we expect them to support the process of weening off the drugs in a controlled approach?
Great question!
There is no help. The drugs have damaged my brain and body and no one gets it. They need to be sued. I need help. Their drugs have caused me to be nonfunctional and my life stolen from me. They cause severe suicidal depression. It’s awful way to live. Alive but not living. I’m suffering
Same. Can we heal?
Thank you, dr. Leaf! Just received a tons of bullets on Tiktok for saying exactly the same, your podcast is so timely! I so appreciate your work! Thank you, thank you, thank you!
Speaking only for myself, I suffered like a dog for five years in my early 20s with depression and anxiety that put me in the hospital and made it impossible for me to work. I lost years of my life. Then I took an SSRI. In three weeks I was perfectly fine, have had no ill effects and have felt great ever since. While the mechanism of action of SSRIs has been not completely known for decades (this is not new information in the study), there is no question but that they work for some people. There was also a reason that serotonin was the focus of research in the first place. Obviously there are other actions at play, and those actions (whatever they are) saved my life.
This was an incredible interview. Thank you very much to Dr. Leaf and Dr. Joanna Moncrieff for this information. I am currently taking a degree in Psychology and will read up on this paper as this is something that I find very important and serious presently.
Yes I was always cautious about antidepressants I would never 👎 take these pills 💊 until I was desperately seeking wellness from trauma …
Bloody hell I was terrified & scared & fearful of being homeless after divorce & DV . Thank-you so much for information being informed! GodBless you Both !
Look into amino acids to balance serotonin and dopamine.
Yeah, when my marriage ended I went through so much. It has taken me 5 years to get off the medication I was incorrectly prescribed (that affected my physical and emotional health) and pick up the pieces of my life with my daughter. I am still scared about my financial future, but at least I have the emotional and cognitive function to do something about it.
Thank you for bringing this up. ❤
On day two of the Prozac Bridge to get off of (Effexor 16 years). So far so good. I've read where this method has worked for others with way less withdrawals than trying to get off the effexor alone. I'm determined to get my full range of emotions back no matter how long it takes. I should have never gotten on effexor in the first place. And now that the Serotonin Theory is debunked it gives me that much more determination to get clean from these pharmaceuticals. Thank you doctors for bringing this information to the public. It's time the world gets clean from these mind altering and emotion destroying drugs.
Can’t hear what your guest is saying at he very beginning, the audio cuts back in. So thankful for this episode.
Thank you for guidance in decreasing dosages. Been on antidepressants for 28 yrs, with increase in dosage and adding different types. It is very hard decreasing and tempting to decrease quickly. Going through this now...🙏
How are you doing now?🙏
@@janetdrews525 ... thanks for 🙏! Yeah, I've been tempted a couple of time to stop decreasing, but I'm starting to feel better. My advice is to decrease very very slowly. 🙏💜🙏
@@yvieart Here is a video that explains how to taper slowly. Dr. Moncrieff mentioned her co-author Dr. Mark Horowitz has researched drug tapering and this video by Dr. Sanil Rege explains his research. Good luck and take care! th-cam.com/video/1wWCBPSj7ZA/w-d-xo.html
What's worrying is how the doctors get kickbacks $$$ by prescribing certain drugs from certain companies, that may have sponsored their training.
I am so glad you put this out here! I have been saying this for years from a spiritual perspective. I have been healed from several mental illnesses and now I help others get free and healed. There is a lot of money to be made from convincing people that these meds help them. I lived over 20 years on these drugs before I gave my life to Jesus! Thank you again for putting this out there.
Zoloft destroyed my life. Im off. Neurological damage. Can only walk short distance. Cant work out. Cant work. Physically crippled. And the brain feels fried.
Excellent! Much needed.
Where are the links that she mentions were going to be posted when discussing tapering?
The pain system, poorly understood and taught, when malfunctioning, is a frequent t cause of depression possibly explaining the high incidence of e of ‘depression ,in chronic pain which is a disease of the pain system. Once the chronic pain is effectively managed the depression improves consistently.
I agree that serotonin doesn't do a thing for my depression
Pharmaceutical companies pushing new drugs decades ago, why? Financial gain of course!
Thank you Thank you thank you thank you thank you
Love how you are speaking the truth.
It is a myth.
Have we thought about the chemical bathing in utero relating to our mothers emotional/chemical state as we were being forged?
I notice that there are no debunking the seratonin myth episodes when it comes to anxiety (like Generalized Anxiety Disorder). Are there any episodes on seratonin levels, ssri's, as it pertains to anxeity in Dr. Leaf's 415 episodes?
Good question
View our new documentary (as seen on PBS) about this topic: medicatingnormal.com
In Spain, they say on the info that comes with all medications, 'we don't how they work exactly but we know that they work' in any psy medication info.
Every single era of torture in my life story has a direct connection to the prescribing of psych medicines, going on the ramp or flying off the ramp, come to find out here that the ramp didn't exist!!!
ssris stole so much from my life..i was put on them as a 15 year old when really i was living in a abusive environment
that makes me angry... you just needed a kind adult to talk about your life in an abusive environment and instead they are too lazy to care about your situation and just give you a drug 😠 you were just a child 🤦♀
An ad every 3 mins 😑
But good content, I’m on Prozac so I need this info!
Yes, the ads are super annoying!
I'm half the way through and I knew I didn't want antidepressants. I'm not going with this road.
Grace and peace in Jesus 🙏
It's not just this channel. TH-cam is going nuts with the ads lately testing to push TH-cam premium.
Important to know.
Wonderful information
People need to work, raise children etc.etc. So what kind of herbs, supplement etc is helpful for people detoxing off of med or those living with depression and anxiety. As we know low income family do not have access to therapy or can afford supplements.
We dont have any easy answers to lifes numerous problems. Drugs are not the answer, and indeed psychiatric drugs are the problem nowadays.
Thank you for this!
thank you. a lot of this information is suppressed due to the control of big pharma
Yup & blackballing & threats to Dr’s
It's at least as much to do with the cultural paranoia and persecution-complex that has taken hold over institutional psychiatry. That predates drugs, of course. We've been through this already with lobotomy, and insulin shocks before that, and many other things from phrenology to the present.
Most psychiatrists are taught little other than pushing drugs at all costs, and quickly begin to distrust reality as sacrilegious and double down. Academic psychiatry isn't quite as bad, but it's still defensive. It's not like these insular groups have ever admitted that there has ever been anything wrong in the past either. It will be the same with this.
I’m halfway through interview, but just want to say, what worries me is long term use of these brain chemical changing drugs. Do they cause permanent damage to the body/brain, or does the brain rectifies itself to bring you back to homeostasis?
It depends on the individual, how high their dose is, how long they have been on the drug and how many psych drugs they are on. Generally, the higher the dose and longer the time period they have been on the drug(s), the longer the tapering process will take, possibly several months to several years. Whether or not the brain can return to normal is uncertain. Because the brain, which oversees the body's homeostasis, is always making adjustments to maintain a healthy, functioning system, it also makes adjustments in response to these drugs, which stop the re-uptake of neurotransmitters (e.g. serotonin and dopamine). So the brain detects there's too much serotonin, for example, so it will change how the serotonin sensors work and some may die off, according to Dr. Peter Breggin, a Harvard-trained psychiatrist and former Consultant at the National Institute of Mental Health. He explains this in his presentation, "Psych Meds Cannot Fix Biochemical Imbalances Because There Are No Biochemical Imbalances In The Brain" th-cam.com/video/V815ZSoGkI0/w-d-xo.html
"The Three Most Important Facts About Psychiatric Drugs" www.madinamerica.com/2017/12/the-three-most-important-facts-about-psychiatric-drugs/
@@faitht3643 thank you and thank you for the links xx
I've been on and off Lexapro for 15 years now after starting it for panic attacks. This makes so angry.
Honourable lady, is in this for many years, but still can't perceive that drugs are effective,as farma is saying, but in what specific terms? I will tell her that it works in sense that it has affect, but not desirable or beneficial for people. Main affects are damaging
So just out of curiosity if these meds don't help,how do u explain the disorders such as bipolar disorder,pmdd, and all the other mood disorders and such that are out there? Are they just all fake?? And if not how do u suggest we help these issues? For example I have bipolar disorder,anxiety and PTSD I have been off meds and on them most of my life I was diagnosed at 17 and am now 40 and it seems to have gotten worse with age, and I def feel more like myself on them than not so I'm genuinely curious what u think these mood disorders actually are??
Yes, I have a very similar story. Actually it's basically the same and I agree with what you're saying so I too am very curious.....
I explain them by “unhealthy lifestyle and choices/overwhelm/burnout/toxic social constructs” ..
It's possible there is a biological component of one diagnosis or another, but it has to be pointed out that there is absolutely zero meaningful evidence to say there is. But it's equally important to point out that the diagnoses themselves are not inherently valid for the same reason. What you read in the DSM - that's all there is. There is nothing behind it, it's just someone peering at you (however well they even do that) and vaguely matching to those vague bullet points. The nosology is contrived, not discovered.
So what do you mean when you say "I have such and such"? You mean there were some circumstances (probably) that led someone to say you have such and such. Ever since, you've been going in circles.
If anyone tries to conclusively say anything more than that, they're misleading you, intentionally or not. That is all there has ever been to any of it, with a few exceptions.
So what do you "have", and what do you do about it, you ask? As long as your perceptions and judgement aren't clouded by an overt delusion or disinformation (like the diagnosis and associated rhetoric itself), you are the person best equipped to wrestle with those questions. Again, it's possible there is a biological factor that might one day be discovered and, necessarily by happenstance, you could draw a link between that factor and your present day "diagnosis". And it's possible there will never be any such thing. It can be difficult, because even putting on'e's past and circumstances that may have led to whatever diagnosis they are labeled with aside, being on the treatment train for so long and adopting narrative elements connected to it reshapes people's views and thinking and behavior. The wishy-washyness of the above also aside again, the drugs do affect people and coming off them does affect people, and that gets co-opted into the model. What's really going on? Is it "fixing" anything, like the doctor said? No. Coming off has withdrawal effects - does that mean it was working? No. What is my "baseline" now, then? What can I do? That can only be found out be pushing through the gauntlet to find out.
@@georgeshapiro301 That is so brilliantly put, George. And so few people think this way...
You might like to read a book called 'adrenaline dominance' by Dr Michael Platt. It will help you to understand bipolar disorder, and to see a better way of treating it.
Monoamine antidepressants at best suppress the symptoms of depression, but the real treatment is psychotherapy! But yes, there's potential in the newer treatments like Ketamine, dextromethorphan etc
Not all anti depressants work, can cause suicidal thoughts, as a side effect. Glad they are rethinking mental health drugs.
Who's "they"? The more this stuff gets explored and talked about, the more institutional actors batten down the hatches, plug their ears, and screech of persecution.
What hope is there for me? 25 years on their drugs? Benzodiazepines and antidepressants and antipsychotics and my son has been forced on antipsychotics and in ICU right now. I’m hopeless. These drugs have stolen everything from my life. This information is late for my family and me. Foolishly listened to doctor. I ask God to please just let me die. My life is over.
No it is not!!! It is about to get worse before it gets better! ❤
I understand how you feel. My son is in the hospital now after taking himself off of Duxoletine. I think he is going to make it, but he had all the side effects of that drug. I am praying for you.
@@aliciamull4882 how much worse can it get? Death? My son has been beaten. The tried to kill him when he was in a residential home. First, the pdoc abruptly stopped the 500mg clozapine per day for 6 days as we all insisted he reinstate. Even my son wanted it. They ended up baker acting him. He was physically ill from the abrupt cessation and they kept shooting him up with haldol, which is on his allergy list. My husband saw him dying a horrific death. I had to argue with staff to stop his death. He finally was rushed to CV-ICU. He was dying. All organs were shutting down. They stopped his death. Then I was in the fight for his life against the psycho mafia. It was insane. THEY are insane. Gaslighting, intimidation, and more. I finally got him out of that. Maybe six times I’ve been able, with God’s help, stop them from putting him in the state hospital. They don’t know what they are doing half the time- the other half are manipulating my son’s mind with drugs! It’s pure evil!! Yet again, last year they gave him injections of Haldol and now he has NO RIGHT EYE AT ALL!! He’s only 28-years-young. He hasn’t had a chance at life. Psychiatry here is EVIL! They are not helping. They destroy people with these drugs and then blame the patient! I have agencies and lots of proof of malpractice and medical neglect, yet they get slapped on the wrist and continue to torture and KILL people with drugs in their torture chambers called behavioral health units. I know 2 mothers who have lost their sons in there. I’ve seen the brutality and the misuse of drugs. They think they are above the law!
@@gailkarrer6041 thank you. Pray for complete transformation of mental health so that it is actually helpful and not destructive and horrible.
Read 'Adrenaline Dominance' by Dr Michael Platt. There is hope for you and your family.
And also do u think hormone therapy can help? Like for instance I had blood work done and my Dr found that my hormones are all over the place and very low in many of them including one called pregnenolone?? Apparently it causes many issues so my Dr is recommending to take these hormones to see if they will help progesterone also so I'm just curious as to what ur thoughts are on that??
Hormones are always all over the place. Change daily.
@@hisforever4937 what I'm experiencing is a little more than just normal stuff but thanks 👍
I actually understand that. I’m sorry that sounded kind of vague. What I mean is you can never track a normal hormone level because hormones are always fluctuating.
@@hisforever4937 it's cool I've just been sick for a long time not knowing what's wrong with me and learning about the hormones and stuff is what I'm hoping will help me
What about TMS therapy?
💔💔💔💔I am so sad. There’s no life left. We need deprescibing clinics. This is not living.
Don’t have hope, take our pill instead.
There are a lot of natural herbs that can help with anxiety and depression and not all get FDA approve. I like to hear more about this.
No no no!. Nothing that you eat (pills, herbs) or damage the brain with (ECT) is the answer. It's lifestyle, life events, and real problems that cause people to be severely distressed. Stop looking for magic bullets.Society, friends, family need to help change the situations. It's not simple.
At the very least, anyone who prescribes psychiatric drugs should be an expert in how to withdraw from them... and they aren't!! Prescribers need to warn about the possible side effects, and nutritional deficiencies that can be caused by psych drugs as well. They don't do this either.
So true.
I take 60m of florexitine and its helped me immensely. Are you saying that Florexitine is a placebo?
Not at all. Placebos are used in clinical trials and research in which people are given drugs that appear to be the real thing but designed to have no therapeutic benefits. It's unethical to be prescribed a sugar pill without the person knowing. But in these trials some people using the placebo benefit the same way as using actual drug.
@@tarafetterhoff1965 So you mean they are told they are taking a placebo beforehand? Do you have an opinion on flourexitine?
@@k9ine999 The participate never knows if they are getting the placebo. But they go into the study aware it's a placebo study. It's either a single blind study where the patient doesn't know but the doctor knows which people have the placebo or a double blind which neither doctor or person know. I study psychology. I have my thoughts on depression pills, but they aren't appropriate to tell them to someone who they are helping to. I like to hear success stories with peoples health.
Placebo effects are not the same as the placebo. You can say it helped you, but (without trying to demean you here) we have to be clear about what that means. You noticed it affected you in some way. Did you think "I'm being helped" because you felt something and you were being told you were being helped, and convince yourself of something in particular? Or maybe you began to make other concrete or mental changes along with it. Or maybe it was incidental. Maybe you personally found the effect useful regardless. Or maybe you didn't, but you assumed that is what help is. Placebo effects can even be seen in outcomes for "concrete" matters like cancer. Perception and belief are immensely powerful, and accounting for placebo in psychiatry is more difficult because everything from the diagnoses to the heuristics of outcome are ill-defined and lack validity, and because people will generally know if they are in the control group or not because, regardless of whether the mind-altering substance is doing something "legitimate", people are aware if they are taking a sugar pill or the drug because it does do something that they notice. Still when accounting for these things, "efficacy" approaches zero, and even turns negative by some measures.
Yes , mainly, and a little sedatve side effect.
Psychiatrists are panicking that they will not have any scientifically validated, effective drugs left to prescribe for their 'disorders' soon. Thus they are trying to encourage the use of psychedelics and ketamine now as new ideas, where there is again no evidence of their beneficial effects or indeed their safety. The definition of madness is to try something that doesn't work (drug treatments), and then to try it again.
I am a Psychiatrist and feel happy to see this podcast.
I give my patients this info and use small doses and do not prescribe these meds for ever.
2023...
Hi Joanna
Whilst I find your research interesting I do think you over play the idea that psychiatrists tell people that for sure they have a chemical imbalance .
I am the son of a consultant psychiatrist that you have met /talked to a few times at meeting for royal college in London. I find your message that the problem of depression or anxiety is purely down to experiences etc. The truth is that we don't really know. I got diagnosed with asergers when younger and despite having better a levels than my dad I have had long term anxiety / depression which in part relates to autism . To push the idea that psychiatric disorders do not stem from the brain is dangerous . There are many disorders such as schizophrenia , autism (likely mood and anxiety disorders) , neurological disorders that almost certainly stem from the brain.
I agree that treatments are poor bit a few points on ham d is the best we have . Please don't go back to dark ages and start blaming people for the problems that they can encounter. Obviously life experiences can cause mood disorders but I am convinced and there is evidence for some brains differences in certain disorders.
If you are still practicing are you following nice guidelines given your current views?
She is speaking mainly about depression.
I always suspected that it was all placebo