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SoD was our first experience with Classic Plus. Problem was the devs gave up on the Sodcore and the players for the most followed the devs lead. Those of us still logging in every day. We are the Classic Plus niche.... the Sodcore. Doing our thing until the next evolution of C+ I've been subbed 16 years playing a ranged hunter for 15 of them and melee hunter for the past year on the only version of wow that currently supports my spec.
I leveled my first 60 without incursions. Was not going to use a broken system until they fixed it. Started using incursions once they were made into dailies. They are just another tool in the leveling toolbox. The road to 60 can be paved with only pvp, dungeons, raids, incursions or good old fashion leveling, or a mixed leveling experience of al;l of the above. And SoD offers both an accelerated leveling experience, or a normal leveling experience(by shutting the bonus xp off). A customizable option.
I had stopped playing after cata because I had felt the game changed too far from what it was and never looked back other then checking up on lore stuff from videos...which ya know.... yeah. Anyways thanks for all your sacrifice for the community and I hope more to come for us to look back on and reminisce on.
@@shakeyownz That is true, but I don't see how they couldn't try and do something similar. Having a hard cap to level 60, unlocking the profession limit and just adding new gear woth more incremental boosts instead of squishing the stats of old gear could be interesting. Adding to existing areas instead of only making new ones and polling the additions would also be incredibly fun imo.
@@shakeyownz I'm sorry, I don't really understand as I'm not familiar with how the sandbox model prevents the OSRS voting system (which is what I think the OP is referring to) from being applied to WoW. Can you explain? Thanks!
people need to get it through their thick skulls that the Blizzard that made great games is long gone, these are just people with lack of talent pupeteering the corpse to keep using its name
Ohh they have a lots of talent and enthusiasm to do so... Most of the people working for Blizzard are there because of their endless love for their games...
@@martin9202 Everyone who created vanilla WoW is gone, every single person. The people at Blizzard today don't have a single percentage of the talent that the OGs had.
@@AlmostAeroGauge almost certainly everyone at blizzard has more talent than the people that founded Blizzard, they just dont have the creative freedom. there's a difference.
Turtle got it right. New zone quests, dungeon revamps, professions and loot, hell new zones and dungeons all the way from Westfall to Tanaris. Valuing the part of the game that holds the most people, leveling. Ofc they didnt stop there either. Hopefully one day Blizzard will understand again.
@@antonioazevedo9166client is old, maybe even janky but it's perfectly fine and they are working on a UE5 upgrade, and also nothing about it is pay to win. I really don't know why people are waiting for blizzard to do classic plus wrong, when turtle wow has been doing it right since 2018.
@@antonioazevedo9166 yet the experience on turtle is overall better than anything the multi-million company can deliver with their creatively bankrupt skeleton crew
World of Warcraft from the start was itself a compromise between open world and instanced content, because most of the guys who made the game were Everquest veterans who frequently raided there and saw instances as a solution to the "problem" (some people may see it as a problem, some not) that was early Everquest, with no instances whatsoever, not even in raids. Vanilla was born with instancing, so it wasnt the world in itself the main character, lets be real. Most people just think it is because they didnt played or remember the pre-WoW mmos -- mainly EQ, SWG and UO if we are talking the great PVE experiences of that era. Your point makes sense in comparison to what came after WoW, not before -- but even then Vanilla WoW is this "middle ground" (and I'm not even sure if is the best way to see it) of these mmos.
No. Players change. Its not the game. You go to classic and people are spamming chat for dungeon runs, no ones gives a fuck about the world. They all use questie and restedXP.
@@user-fv7jd4xj5n They changed because they learned what has the most challenge and most reward after playing the game over and over again and reading every guide (and using addons, like you said - there are also some which report XP gains per hour). When I say challenge I don't mean it to the extreme, as dungeons aren't particularly difficult, even if you're 4 levels below the end boss, but they are a hell of a lot more engaging than questing, and the loot, gear, and XP that comes out of them generally leaves the open world obsolete to the savvy player. The only exception is if you're on a PvP server and actively seeking combat. In fact, many of the quests which grant the best items outside dungeons are embarrassingly worse than what you can get from dungeons that were already available to you for several levels - and that pitiful reward requires you to spend real life hours walking through zones you outlevel (which are empty of other players, thanks to "layering", one of the worst additions to Classic), or sitting on the same flight path you've been on 20 times. The only difference to that A proper Classic+ should include several new vast elite areas, and I mean huge, multi-level mazes you can actually get lost in and have to learn your way around, for all levels 6-60. Give them frequent treasure that spawns more often if PvP kills are occurring in the zone. Elite areas are already where the best, most vicious PvP already happens, and they offer significant XP/loot gains over typical questing and grinding, so adding even more of them will lead to people grouping up and spending more time out there grouping with randoms in the world. Blizzard will NEVER stop people dungeon spamming if they want the fastest XP. They can nerf some things, like letting mobs benefit from diminishing returns on soft and hard CC, to prevent spellcleave from being so effective, for example. But it will still be faster XP even in a traditional group. And locking the instance reset timer to 24 hours, or one week, or whatever, will lead to unhealthy instance group culture. They need to add more to the game. You are correct, once again, the players changed. Now it's Blizzard's turn to change the game for the better, and rather than try to chase the players who are spamming dungeons they should throw a bone to players who want more open world.
I was dreaming of a WoW 2 oder Classic plus or whatever taking place in a time short before the First War happened so we can replay all of the history we learned about
@@reforged3588 if blizzard were valve they would simply hire the people responsible for that and get them to do changes, at which point within a year people would go from praise to whinning because wow players dont know what they want anyways
As someone who has played both wow and osrs, I really don't think most wow players understand what they're asking for when they say they want osrs style classic +. Needing 70% of the active player base to agree on all updates is a massive risk. Before Sailing passed, lots of people thought the polling system would kill the game by preventing any major additions. The Old School community has had years to get used to the voting system. If wow players got it tommorow, it might take years before anything passes
I would also worry about WoW bots and their ability to vote on polls. I know osrs has alot of bots but when I played wow there were bots that would just never get banned.
Polling is one of the worst things to happen to OSRS and it only has gotten worse over the time. Its all survivorship bias and playerbase segregation between PvP and PvE players. "Would you like 2x xp rate on a skill? yes absolutely i hate playing this game" "Would you want new content to bring more players to wilderness? no i hate engaging with people in MMO's"
I think turtle wow has it down pretty good. New dungeons and BGs, some meme specs are actually viable and most importantly no blood elves only high elves.
Had 10 year break from retail, came back this year to War within, but got bored of the constant mindless mythics, raiding, and generally easy gameplay. Levelling in retail is just something to push through, they've clearly given that up. Found Twow through YT after 3 months of retail, and cancelled subscription within 1 day. The best thing about Twow is that even if someone is ridiculously geared, they still need to group up to do lvl 50 dungs(ST, BRD, etc.), and this creates a very friendly environment where people are actually dependent on each other. The new dungeons(expanded Wailing caverns and Deadmines to mention a few) are top tier, item drop% for consumables, quest, trade goods, and certain rares increased, which prevents ridiculous AH prices and profession botting. Super friendly community with continuous updates and a bunch of RPers which brighten your day - had a guy RP as a SW guard who accused me of not showering before entering AH xD And its free.
I think there’s a lot of nuance of what you presented here. I love the simplicity of Classic compared to Retail but that does’t mean I want to play auto attack simulator when playing Paladin. I like unbalance and some classes being good in some roles that others don’t, but I don’t like only being able to play a specific “viable” spec or class to get invited to groups.
"to play a specific “viable” spec or class to get invited to groups." This doesn't happen unless you decide to play with complete PUGs all the time, or if your guild is trash. Literally anyone who is elitist-gating your class in this game is a piece of garbage. I blame Asmongold, quite frankly you should too.
@@Shorkshire This is just objectively false. Everything is pretty much viable in TBC, which in my opinion is the far better version of WoW, nothing is fun about Vanilla balancing. It's one of the things many people can agree is garbage about the game.
@@torrybrockert5750 most players are pugging these days. WoW is a dad game, and a lot of those people aren't comfortable with needing to be at their computers every week at a certain time(s). That's part of the reason GDKP became so popular. It's basically pugs on demand. That's just how people play now. So the game has to cater to that to at least some extent. One of the way is to make the classes and specs closer together. They don't have to be close like retail is now with all the damage specs being within about 3% of each other, but it can't be like in Vanilla where a fury warrior did something like 4x the damage of a ret paladin. As for the thing with Asmongold, that dude was just telling how it was. If you want to blame anybody, blame the current game director Ion who used to run a guild called . Their website was one of the top theorycrafting sites back in the day. So it was people like him who figured out what classed were good and bad.
TBC talents was awfull, awfull pve rotations, awfull pvp with endless resists/stuns from spec. Anyway people need to leave that idea alone, blizzard proven they cant make anything.
If you ask me, they should add tbc and wotlk, scale it all down to 60 (40-60), make it one big world. No more items artificially made useless above 60, many useful trinkets and random weapons with interesting effects, many raids and dungeons, everything at level 60. Useful talents and spells can be added from scrolls, books dropped off of bosses, quest lines, whatever. They already used books to do this in vanilla.
@@alrightylol I think most people would agree that the direction of TBC prepatch was a good one even if the implementation was poor, and that enabling more specializations to play in PvP and PvE is a good thing. I don't think the Classic+ community would be upset if Blizzard spent a decent amount of time in a Classic+ "preseason" where they spend time discovering what and where to place each specialization, and how to help them.
@@alrightylol TBC was about as balanced as the game ever was while still maintaining the RPG feel. Besides, it would just be a starting point. There would still be adjustments made.
My experience with Turtle WoW was swarms of multi-boxers and botters instantly tapping every quest mob. The real players I encountered were about what I remember in CoD lobbies. An absolutely terrible experience. I do think the changes they've made are great though. Just wish it wasn't covered in the slime of its own playerbase.
@@foobazabar Sounds like your experience occured during the time when tons of chinese players came to the server. That was indeed an... experience. They got their own server now :)
turtle wow as a client is great but the community is mind numbing, its full of meat head morons all trying to outdo each other on who can say the most brain dead sht in world chat
Chess did get balance patches. Before 1828 you could only promote to pieces that were already captured, so you couldn't get two queens. They still make minor changes sometimes, like changing the 50 move rule to the 100 move rule sometimes (in the 60s).
WoW classic makes everything important, that's kind of why it works, because it utilizes the entire game. Leveling is important yes, but also crafting, gathering, PvP, leveling-dungeons, Quest rewards, specific stat-breakpoints and general preparedness for the world. Time spent playing classic is spent planning ahead for what comes next, your agency is maximized and it's your own fault (mostly) when you don't meet your goals. I think this is fantastic and the leveling, especially with a few friends, couldn't be better. I think the biggest enemy of classic+ in the way described is modern audiences, they will theorycraft and break classic+s little kneecaps and then we are stuck with people leveling optimally, playing optimally and asking for changes as the way to play optimally turned out to not be fun.
@@jrblackify the pawns had how they moved changed, they were not originally able to move two squares forward for their first move. Also castling was not originally allowed either
@@jrblackify Once upon a time, the queen was the worst piece. She got to move two spaces on her first movement and only one square DIAGONALLY after that. Quite literally got reworked.
I don't see each class as a different chess piece, I see the classes as a whole chess colour. Some classes will win almost every battle, and some classes will lose almost every battle.
You're wrong about chess, it has been changed, more than once even. In early iterations, the queen had a much smaller move set and could only move 1-square diagonally. It actually had its move set buffed more than once over time. Hell, the queen isn't even the only piece that had its move set changed, not to mention there were entire rules that were changed/reworked as well concerning the game as a whole. There usd to be alternate ways to win outside of checkmate, stalemates used to mean a loss and not a tie, castling didn't used to exist, pawn promotion could only select from already-captured materials. There are more changes as well if you do a brief google search. I agree with everything you said, but that was actually a swing and a miss of an analogy. Much love and respect for your videos!
You dont think trashseason actually ever had a thought do you?? Dude had a mental breakdown because of a token, but still wont move on from wow. Its amazing and I cant look away from this trainwreck
@@JimSmith-g2d Please do not associate me with your toxicity, I'm not interested in badmouthing someone for making a fun youtube video. I was just sharing something I noticed. Have a good day.
The chess argument was where I stopped watching too, but kind of from the other direction. The homogenization argument is always so weird to me. We have had meta comps for all forms of content across raid, pvp and dungeons for as long as I've been playing (end of MoP) and homogenization hasn't prevented that from being a thing at all.
classes having huge flaws made them so much more interesting, like I remember in Vanilla, BC and WOTLK people looked at Warrior as such an exotic and cool class despite a bunch of other classes just doing so many things better than Warrior and partly it was because Warrior was so full of flaws but if you built it up and had friends and certain situations around you it did so well in a certain environment, the flaws didn't really need fixing, it gave it character and class fantasy
Twow is by far the best vanilla+ server out there, and i seriously doubt that blizz will manage to match it purely because of their lack of love and passion but who knows, i might be proven wrong.
@@mitchconner2021 Id much rather have a healthier player base and economy than being on an empty server just to lvl up faster. Vanilla wow is about player interaction and exploring a world that feels alive, layering would kill that.
There's a serious flaw in comparing the balance of an MMO to the balance of a game like chess. While in chess, I must start off with 8 pawns, 2 rooks, 2 bishops, 2 knights, a queen, and a king, in an MMO, I don't need to bring a set number of each class. If it turned out that before playing a game of chess, I could choose to bring 15 queens, I absolutely would.
Which is why we see with how brown classic raid rosters are. Now would it be a better experience if there were more viable/optimal options? I honestly couldn't say but I feel like at least options that are currently unthinkably unplayable could be fixed a bit to at least work
He wasn't really comparing the balance, he was comparing the unit design philosophy to class design. Not a perfect analogy, but you understand what he's saying if you take it into context.
@ I understand exactly what he was saying, which is that part of chess’s greatness is due to the fact that each of the pieces do different, unique things, and that it would be a mistake to buff the weaker pieces because then chess would lose its richness. He *was* talking about balance, not just unit design philosophy. He was talking about the relationship between balance on the one hand and unit uniqueness on the other hand-there is a push and pull here. The problem, as I said, is that you are forced to start each game with a set number of pieces in chess, but that’s just not the case with classes in wow. It’s all fine and good to have some pieces be far shittier than others because you have to use them-you don’t have a choice. But in an MMO, I don’t have to use the shitty pieces. I can just tell them to go away and wait until I have good pieces. That is why it’s a silly analogy. You can *only* really make Madseason’s point if you also insist that in classic+, group compositions should be forced, so that you have to take a set number of each class.
I picked up vanilla during the Naxxramas pre-event; I rolled a human priest based on the character I had been using for DnD (human cleric). In the early levels when I went to train my skills, I was too poor to afford them all and since my DnD character was lawful good I skipped buying the shadow spells (plenty of holy spells that deal damage anyway!). Once I hit level 10 and unlocked talents, I forsake the Shadow tree as again it didn't fit the character I wanted to play (healer/holy nuker). As you can imagine, this made leveling in the game very hard. An irl friend who was on the server looked at my character and said I should re-spec shadow. I told him I wanted to heal and use holy spells, he explained how terrible that would be for leveling and that if I wanted to heal, I would first have to spend levels 1-59 as shadow. Also that I should re-roll as a dwarf. From the moment I started playing, strangers would whisper me and tell me I picked the wrong race; I should quit this character and re-roll a dwarf. By the time my free month had ran out I was level 36 and had played the game enough to know how much better a dwarf priest truly was. I never came back to vanilla, but did reroll gnome warlock and ended up raiding TBC thru Cata.
You had a fun approach towards the game! Those who were pestering you with their "recommendations" were tryhards who suck all the fun out of any game XD well done!
Alliance High Elves, Horde Ogres, Quel'Thalas/Ghostlands area filled with Blood Elves hostile to both factions, including dungeons and raids in Silvermoon City similar to Stratholme and Blackrock Depths.
i can agree that charm is very important, and i don't want huge class changes like SoD. But it is stupid, and i can't imagine it is what the developers originally wanted, to have completely useless class roles in the game. Like only warriors being tanks and druids, shammys, and paladins all being forced to heal. That is beyond charm into removing all the RP if your chosen class is only decent at one thing.
Druid tanks are good already, and forcing shamans/rets to heal is actually great for the game because otherwise filling a 40 man with 10 healers would be nearly impossible.
With the 20th anniversary I leveled my last WoW character, I got to 60 on my Paladin the morning of December 1st, just 3hrs before my 29 year long subscription finally expired. I bring this up because during this final leveling I discovered an area I'd never seen before, its in the south east of Desolace, behind the Magram Centaur base that has all the water, if you can get around behind all that water there is a tiny break in the cliffs which leads to Shadowbreak Ravine, its a Twilight Hammer ritual area with one of their towers & a stable that houses a bunch of Felsteeds then if you go up the path there's a big summoning circle. Wowpedua says it was initially supposed to be used for the Warlock's Felsteed quest, but since that was cut nothing sends you there, the obly thing it has is some of the Felhunters you can kill for their brains for one of the quests (at least on Alliance). The area has some really cool plague mushrooms with a blue glow that I don't think I've seen anywhere else in the game. Another spot I learned about recently from a video is that there is a cool area in STV where you can sit under a waterfall, it's just south of the Naga area where you kill them for the Akris Reeds, you can see the waterfalls from the south of their island area at the bridge, if you stick to the mountains there will be a little pathway that weaves up so you can walk under the waterfall, there are also a bunch of rocks jutting out that could be used as diving boards, really cool little vista whhere you can just sit and relax. These spots aren't new, they were created over 20 years ago now, but they were new to me as of this past month, even after playing for the last 18 years (I took over the sub from my dad when he passed, so the sub has been for 20, I just only played 18 of those years) I could still find new areas I'd never seen before in Vanilla.
its now ive started making content that not only do i enjoy your videos but am amazed at the effort and detail that goes into every single one, espcially the documentary which i slap on in the background every now and then, you are literally the standard at which all hope to be at
I think the two things I would want most from classic+ would be class tuning and zone finishing. Classic was designed with the concept of the hybrid tax where classes that could perform multiple roles were made worse at those roles in order for it to be fair. But this just isn't a good idea it turns out. So in classic+ I'd like to see buffs to prot and ret paladin, balance and feral (both cat and bear) druid, shadow and disc priest, and enh and ele shaman so that all these roles are roughly as viable as the other classes (and so feral druids no longer have to farm manual crowd pummelers and wear a level 45 helm all throughout end game to manage to still not be as good as rogue or warrior dps). And even though they're not a hybrid class, warlocks too just because you never really see them in end-game except for like 1 per raid group to summon. Along these same lines of class tuning I'd like to see tier sets reworked to give bonuses to all specs like how retail tier bonuses do, that way your tier set doesn't pigeonhole you into being a druid healer or whatever. Though I do agree that the unbalanced nature of the game is part of its charm, so I don't need things to be perfectly balanced. Warriors could even remain the best dps. I just don't want some specs to be so terrible in comparison. (But what you said about chess actually isn't true, it's been balanced and changed a lot of times. For example, bishops used to only be able to move 2 spaces. Plus, a problem with the chess analogy is that while the pieces aren't balanced with respect to each other, each player uses all the pieces. A truer comparison to WoW would be a chess game where you only play as one piece, and other people play as other pieces. Obviously everybody's going to want to be the queen.) And for zone finishing, I'd really like to see the stuff that the classic development team planned to be in classic but got cut. Of course it would be cool to see whole zones that got cut, like the Emerald Dream, but really I'm just talking about stuff that's in the game but is incomplete, like most of Kalimdor. The questing in Kalimdor is just obviously not finished (Azshara is an obvious example, but a lot of the zones are very quest sparse or have quest lines with no conclusion. It's pretty difficult in the level 30-40 range to not need to go to Eastern Kingdoms to find quests). And I think if classic+ is going to add any zones the first one should definitely be Mount Hyjal because it's half in the game already. It's labeled on the map and everything. What I would definitely NOT like to see in classic+ are flying mounts, daily or weekly quests, or new class/race combinations.
The issue with the hybrid tax is that warriors do not pay it. If they did, fury/arms would do roughly as much DPS as cat/ret and tank as well as prot paladins and bears.
@@LeRoiduSaucisson-t4o I mean, they kind of were paying it in TBC. Warriors didn't do well until T6. But I'd be down to nerf warrior dps. Rage normalization is totally a thing that should happen.
@@seanwilliams7655 TBC is when they dropped the hybrid tax iirc. Everyone was doing decent damage to the point that "selfish" classes that didn't bring useful buffs/debuffs started to get sidelined. It's what prompted the utility creep from TLK onwards. It's not that warriors were nerfed, it's that everyone else was buffed into viability coupled with the disappearance of world buffs and ungodly amounts of consumables that propped warriors up. I agree with rage normalisation, btw.
@@LeRoiduSaucisson-t4o they lowered it in TBC. It wasn't dropped completely until Wrath and Ghostcrawler with his "bring the player not the class" philosophy.
Also chess requires you to start with all of the different types of pieces. If you could replace all other pieces with queens I feel like a lot of people would and the game would play very very differently. Which is the issue that wow in general but definitely classic has, where some race/class combinations are just entirely better than others and when you get to pick and chose who can come into the group of course most people are gonna chose the combinations that are going to give the highest and quickest chance at success.
Yeah, but the overall concept of Chess hasn't changed. No new pieces, no new board. It's the same layout, same everything, the only change has been adjusting the rules to keep it fresh/interesting. Chess itself hasn't changed, at all, it's just Chess, but the rules we put on it change it accordingly. (No, 4d Chess and those quasi-trans-dimensional chess games are not Chess, those are gimmicks) Same argument can be made on anything. A Cake is the same as every cake ever baked, but it's different once you do it. Chess is the same as it has always been, until we decided it wasn't, yet it still is. Chess is chess.
People always claim it's nostalgia, but it isn't. Classic WoW has properties barely any other MMO including its own expansions have. For example the very process of leveling is part of the (positive) experience in Classic, which is difficult enough that it incentivizes people to group up and socialize, while in its expansions it's just a stepping stone to skip over, and all more doable alone. GuildWars 2 is the next best game that has that. And if you think "leveling up" is such a menial part, remember that Oblivion, Skyrim, Morrowind, Witcher (3), Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter, and many more have 100% of their played time in the "leveling up" phase. As of WoW it's more split between 1-60 and 60 with items.
Awesome video as always. I gotta say tho, It's a pet peeve of mine whenever Mad uses the chess analogy. Chess IS balanced. Even if the pieces are different between each other, both players have the same amount of them in the same arrangement. Wow isn't unbalanced because skills are different between each other, but because different classes can only use some of those skills.
the classes are the pieces silly, and you're agreeing with him - he said the same thing. It's balanced like chess rather than like checkers, and I think we can all agree chess gameplay is more interesting than checkers.
@@mrillis9259yeah Classic raids are definitely not homogenous. There were only * checks notes * 30 warriors in the speedruns. Imagine if every pawn could be replaced by a warrior. If he wants to keep the chess analogy then there has to be a forced reason for ten pawns to be in a group. Why would anyone play pawn (Druid) when they could play queen (warrior/mage)…
@@Slushybear405 he means the classes being homogenous. How ppl decide to grp them isn't the point. Besides, using speed runs as a comparison is disingenuous bc ppl do crazy things for speed runs etc. Its not the norm or required.
Vanilla+ already exists : Turtle WoW, project Epoch and much more less anticipated or known project made by peoples who actually plays and likes the game that aren't (only) motivated by milking players and making the lowest amount of effort possible
I think your points about "cadence" and its knock on effects are the most important, and weirdly something Blizzard never seems to address. To me, that's the entire lesson they should be learning from the popularity of HC WoW. People seem to really like gearing slowly, leveling carefully, and then doing it all over again when they mess up. They like leveling. They like the task of reaching endgame as much as (if not more than) endgame itself. SOD can't take advantage of this because of the seasonal cadence issue, but I'd hope that if Classic+ ever exists, they recognize that blitzing through content to max level isn't the point.
Very much this. SoD's many level and gear skips completely butchers the structure of the main game. If you just want to skip to raiding it's probably fine, but if you don't, there's not much else left. You'll be 60 very quickly with gear that was basically free and better or as good as much of the 5-man end-game gear. Now what?
I’m ngl as a newish player (played the expansion before dragon flight and up) going back to classic is legitimately so hard bc of how simple it is. Going from knowing a whole rotation and needing to move around on frost mage while simultaneously keeping good dps, kinda boring to just stand there and do damage and the leveling takes forever. One thing I do like about classic is that the quests and world seems more like you’re just in the world doing things and not some super hero that needs to stop the fate of the world. You kinda work your way up to that in classic
Great video but chess argument doesnt work. Chess was actually "patched" multiple times over the span of hundreds of years. We have optimized it a lot,and its a good thing.
@@jimh8040 yeah, and if they did, anyone not playing Queen would be at a severe disadvantage. That analogy completely missed the mark in multiple ways.
I am 26 and new to WoW, I have tried to get into the game in the past but the environment of retail was miserable for me. I jumped into Classic because I enjoy OSRS, I really loved the pacing and exploring the world in Classic. I absolutely agree with you that if we were to get a Classic+ I would want to see the world slowly expand, adding zones that weren't able to be added at Vanillas release like Hyjal and Gilneas, I would also like to see new questlines that weave these new zones with old zones at all levels providing players with more options with quests to keep the leveling experience fun and fresh for new and old players. Im playing Paladin and I like that the classes have their limitations. I ended up not liking SoD because it felt like the atmosphere of the game was too different and classes lost their unique charm. Thank you for the video!
Bro just play turtle wow! It has: Gilneas Hyjal 3 new raids Updated dungeons so early level content is fun and fresh Class changes+additions (ret and prot pala actually viable for example, same with enhancement/ele shaman and more) New items mounts and allat A vibrant and generally welcoming and (in my experience) very NOT toxic community And all that, COMPLETELY FREE! You dont have to pay these blizzard corporats a dime.
I think you enjoyed it because it's new to you and you are experiencing everything for the first time and you don't have a database worth of knowledge about everything. How do you like healing? because as a paladin you will be forced to do it.
I think it’s so cool that players like you talk about what you would like in Classic+/Vanilla+ and you’re basically talking about turtle wow. It’s absolutely fantastic! Give it a try.
exactly, the people that made what are still some of the best games ever made, are no longer with the company, the philosophy of "dev make the calls" is gone, what blizzard has become is, by design, unable to make games like wc3, wow-wotlk, diablo 1-2, starcraft/bw, the closest theyll ever get to that level of quality is repackaging what was already made
They could be, but that would require the parent company/management to give them enough time and resources to actually do good development. When Blizzard made all their smash hit games back in days of yore, they abided by "it's done when it is done" for release dates. That's long been trashed and boy does it show.
Old Blizz couldn't do that either :DD I agree that the current Blizzard bleeds from an unending amount of wounds, but so many people forget or straight up ignore just how many stupid, nonsensical and harmful decisions they made in the past. The lawsuits happened because of these "great" past developers too, you know. They made good games, and so what? They couldn't maintain any of them, only mess them up or to let them rot in abandonment. In fact, despite its tremendous amount of problems, DF and TWW brought in many player requested features which "good ol" Blizz ignored for an extremely long time, with another example, that being player housing, also coming in the next expansion
@@karmaceutical3963 That's bullshit... They are absolutely capable of doing it... The issue is Vanilla was born mainly because of enthusiasm and passion of the fictional world they created in warcraft series... That's why it's called World of Warcraft... As indie game studio, just are just passionate about the idea and that empowers you... You create out of passion and as small team you communicate and make decisions together... HOWEVER, as you get bigger and bigger financial aspects and "paying the saleries" overtakes passion and enthusiasm and then you get to the stage as Blizzard/Microsoft is in... They have resources, but since Retail is basically printing money they won't do anything that could threaten it ... If popularity will keep falling as it is now, then we might see something new (worthy)...
@@heli0nsIT would require people who have their Hearts in the Old World of WarCraft, the passion for the world itself. Not their heads cramped into "We have to please all the Players. Everyone should be able to do it. All classes and Specs should be able to do it." etc. And currently i dont See anyone at Blizzard Like this. All those devs are gone. They left Blizzard.
Hey man, I think a lot of people are being too harsh on SOD. I'm just gonna say it, for classic+ to be a success there HAS to be class changes. Did sod take it too far? Yeah. But people need to think of players who LOVE classic wow, but they want to play one of the "meme" specs that blizzard just never finished. These classes were clearly intended to be played but they are so weak it's just not enjoyable. Is it a good thing that the only viable tank in vanilla is warrior...? No it's not. Bears, paladins, and shamans were CLEARLY designed to be able to tank. I'm not saying give everyone everything but having these other classes around brings extra flavor, having 14 warriors doesn't. I've seen amazing things in sod for people who like these meme specs to finally be able to play their class and not get completely shit on for it, just don't forget that.
@@MicrocosmicExperienceImagine wanting no class changes and to continue developing the game trying to ape the previous game design. Don't worry bud, when classic+ happens the classic era servers will still be there for rejects like you 😁
What i would want from Classic+ is stuff like: -An epic questline to cleanse the corrupted ashbringer (Onyxia pre-quest style) -Introduce an actual pre-quest for Naxx -Make Mt.Hyjal an endgame zone -Fix and add all the stuff that was originally planned for vanilla (dragon isles, emerald dream) -Maybe make max lvl 70 because the amount of cut content is way too much to fit into lvl 50-60 content that´s laready there -class changes that make sense without making them op (small stuff like better mana management for druids and shamans, crusader strike from SoD should stay) AND the most important thing is to add all that while keeping it classic (stuff like normal mobs dropping items that are useful but niche for example) Edit: lol i wrote this before watching!^^
I want emerald dream added too. Originally when you died you went to the emerald dream before they changed the lore so it was only druids who could also just freely go. You could choose to rez back on azeroth or stay in the ed and do quests
Agreed with everything except increasing the level cap. Increasing the level cap will make all the current level 60 stuff completely irrelevant, which has been the worst part about expansions since their inception. They should add tons of new stuff, but still have some BiS pieces come from Naxx, BWD, etc. Maybe you'd have 98% of your gear come from the Emerald Dream or Hyjal, but still carry Thunderfury with you.
@DankMemes-xq2xm bad news. The level cap was ALWAYS supposed to start with 70 and the raids were ALWAYS supposed to be staggered. You can literally see the level ranges in the original map that included northrend, outland, kul tires, and dragon isles. Also since you want to make shit up, you used vanilla gear in tbc. You used tbc gear in wrath, but it wouldn't matter if it was in vanilla or not, you would have NEVER hit an end with gear progression in an mmorpg. It's just not going to happen. Whether t4-9 happened in expansions or vanilla, you wouldn't have kept shit from ***BWL** IN content that existed after naxx, because you didn't even do it during naxx.
I'd love to see Classic+! There are a lot of zones in vanilla that are empty (Silithus, Tanaris, Hyjal), so it'd be rad to see them get some love. Also, I love the 10 man raids from Season of Discovery so an expansion of those would be great
The sad part people needs to understand is that we will never get a good polished Classic+ Blizzard can't care less about WoW anymore, they just doing the bare minimum to make A % of players to pay for sub fee years in years out, and spend some cash in the Shop, that's why we see new Classic 60s begin released over and over again with some changes!
Regarding the worldbuilding in Classic, there is one thing that I love in classic and also other old games, which is nowhere to be found in modern WoW is a sense of mundanity. Some NPCs are regular people, going on with their daily lives, asking you for simple help, like getting some water from a fountain or just telling you how their day is. And you start as one of them and have to make a long way to the top. In modern WoW expansions, everything constantly has to be epic. You are the chosen one from day one, every quest leads towards a big climax of fighting a big dragon or some terribly evil undead boss, which has been killed three times already but is still brought back in every expansion due to some lore reasons (looking at you, Illidan, Archimonde, Kill Jaeden, ...).
Love love love that you're using Runescape music even in Wow vids now, as a fellow guy around your age that just recently got into RS partly because of your own attempt to try it, it's just wonderful and palys such a strong role juxtaposed w/ Wow and what a truly good classic+ would look like. I agree that the voting system wouldn't quite work with Wow's community but in basically every other way OSRS is the absolute prime example of this kind of thing.
I would t mind if they used the new textures and skins but in classic. Essentially an HD remake. But the best part of classic for me is just the exploring and leveling
Exactly, don't know why I don't see that topic in any video or discussion. Keep the gameplay but for the love of God, please update at least the character models, I don't want to look like a potato forever, especially as a druid main, shapeshift forms look horrendous in classic.
I'm only fine with them doing an HD remake so long as they do it for everything, otherwise it would look very out of place with the textures that didn't get remade. I absolute loathe the fact that the male incubus model from retail was added to classic, as it is higher polygon than literally the entire world around it. Adding WoD character models but not updating the look of the environment or armor would look so jarring and out of place, idk why people don't understand this.
13:11When I ask for balanced classes I don't mean homogeneous classes. There's a difference there. I believe the classic classes could be tweaked to be more balanced without destroying the charm.
it's wild to think how crazy different vanilla would have been if just a few mana changes with classes had been made in the original game. Take enhance, their dmg isn't bad, they just go oom in like 30 seconds.
“Warriors being miles ahead of everyone in the main area of the game isn’t that bad” - Warrior main. “These other classes can only utilize one spec, and even then it’s not always good. That’s just ‘balance.’” I get the charm, and now level boosts are bad. But being older with actual family obligations and stuff, I can’t no-life it anymore, and a lot of other folks can’t either. Some of that stuff isn’t just for convenience; it’s so we can play the game. It would be nice to be able to end-game tank as a pally or do ele dps as a shaman without a failed spec being called “charm.”
I'm so glad you mentioned osrs. I'm curious if you think a wow+ should have a similar economy. Osrs has lots of horizontal progression that can all add up to maybe a a 20-50% increase in damage done and often this costs you a ton of liquidity because the items never bind but are very rare. Most bosses drop mats much more often than any item but those items are immensely valuable. This allows users to always have something to work for. A full set of bis everything for every situation would cost something close to 10billion gp and very good money makers are around 5mill an hour. The mats the bosses drop can be useful though so that is also a knob to be turned. Even items that have next to no GE can have high HA LA so boss drops can be tuned in many ways. Bosses that do not profit money from the mats always have insanely valuable item drops because the economy is forced to respect your time. All this ends up meaning that farming something over and over again that has a medium skill floor and a high skill ceiling gives you a sense of pride as you do better. There's even some bosses that have a "perfect kill" and you receive double the mats. I feel like this solves problems many people have with mmos where in order to do something it either needs to be recognized as hard to do by the community and have a way of identifying that you've achieved it or give you gear you will throw away 6 months later. In this system however there is always something to go after and incentive to do better. The harder content the more value of the drops because others are gatekeeped by skill and the economy will always reward that long-term. Killing bosses other can't, killing bosses faster, and spending less money are all ways to improve as you work towards making money and getting rare cosmetics/ companions.
I think some rebalance is in order to actually have a Classic+ experience. I don't mean taking away a class identity or making every class able to AOE farm, tank, heal, DPS, solo dungeons or whatever. You can't have the current meta stand forever in something like Classic+, it would burn people out.
Here is how I define the spirit of vanilla: -content and systems that heavily incentivizes player interactions over solo play and automation -the world matters, is vast, varied and everything in it, including the players feels part of a whole -items and experience gained are earned through effort and self-investment That's it. That's what the spirit of vanilla is i think. Very short definition, profound consequences on game design.
Bro your chess analogy is the kind of stuff that keeps me coming back to your channel. I've been saying it for years, and now I have this video to show ppl instead. Thanks my dude.
I'm a Vanilla fan. I've never made it past TBC in WoW because of how it changes the game. I'm definitely a Season of Discovery fan even if it's not perfect for some of the reasons you cited. But there's many really great ideas in SoD that need to be recognized. I think the rune system is great and interactive. The level caps making a temporary endgame for everyone at the same time was interesting. A bigger emphasis on crafting professions. Better reputation rewards such as boots that allow you to walk on water. A quest chain that almost spans the entire leveling process. These are all things (and more) that should make it into Vanilla +. The main reason I love Vanilla is because players have to play with each other, and because the world is vast, interesting and connected. SoD kept all that.
You say anyone that had a decent enough computer could play, but my memory says it could run on the worst PCs. I remember trying to get my friend into playing WoW in 2006 but his family PC was from like 1998 and he told me multiple times the graphics looked way to intense to run. He finally tried out the free version to level 20 and was able to play every single class. (His family said no to subscribing as they didn't have a lot of money so he would just level a class to 20, then reroll.) But it ran fine on his busted 90s pc with graphics at minimum. That was the thing about WoW that got me into it. It looked so good back then and looked like it required an expensive PC but it actually could mostly run on any PC. Not sure about BGs or raids though as my first playthrough took me about 6 months to hit 60 and I only made it to level 55 before TBC dropped.
lol this is not true friend. I avoided all the major cities like the plague lol. If I flew into IF, I would likely fall in the big trench because lag would start as the griffin entered the front gate…. And when I say lag, I mean the screen is frozen and I can move but 3 minutes later it would show me being at the flight master, and then if I tried to move it would freeze again and I would end up somewhere I couldn’t actually see (usually looking into the side of a building xD) Which would mean me trying to log on at like 2 in the morning to avoid people just to hearthstone away xD Raids weren’t even an option… lol
@ I do kinda remember having to stare at the ground zoomed in so I could walk around cities smoothly but I’m not sure if that’s a real memory or not lol.
Personally I would love to see a slightly reimagined game world for a Classic + as it would surely help shape the experience. A big limitation to the game world is it's terrain and design, namely the heavy use of clustered hill/mountain terrain. Seeing the world fleshed out with larger biomes and adjustments to travel systems would be such a fresh breath of air. Imagine iconic zones like Duskwood being much more expansive with farms, and an engaging questline that shows development to the zones. Imagine being able to see the fruit of your labor that turns Darkshire into a bleak town on a edge of collapse to a slightly less cursed and improving town. At least have content and unlocks behind these advancements, similar to OSRS as to how quests can hold large improvements as subsequential rewards. This could also give space for skill improvements to give a healthier identity to the labor and the zones in which you'll spend this time in. Azeroth is an amazing world that deserves to be reinterpreted with a loving dev team that can bring the series into a new healthy growing direction. Sadly Blizz does not seem to be that daring.
Your take on class balance is terrible and entirely devoid of logic. Classes didn't have these weaknesses because it was intentional, Blizzard just designed them terribly. Tell me that Ret & Prot Paladins were intended to be bad at what they should be doing, what the hell is the logic behind that? There is none, the devs simply weren't aware of these issues, a habit which carried on to future expansions too. A class having weaknesses that offset its strengths and create a unique playstyle benefit the game, but if said class is simply weak it just ends up being useless that nobody wants to play. You are just glazing Blizzard here and try to paint them in a way which makes it seem they were doing everything right :D
Can recommend Epoch WoW. a vanilla+ server that will release early 2025. It looks to be very good. The raids have been remade to be harder and ts 25 man. Besides that, it's new zones and new quests and dungeons!
Guys... im gonna be honest. I think it's time to admit you all have a serious nostalgia problem. Im not trying to shame anyone, im really not, but it's not healthy nor natural wanting to go back so much this hard. They already gave you something more than once but is just not enough for some of you. I know midlife crisis hits like a truck, but at some point you gotta let go man.
I got my fix from a private server, you know, back when you could see the same player more than once before sharding and realm sharing and all that, everyone who moves feels like a real person and not a bot like on official servers. But at this point we need new mmos made by passionate people. Blizzard has been desfigured beyond any recognition to be salvagable.
@@necrisro There is it, those words "Back when". You can't say is not nostalgia. You miss a time that's long gone, want a design that simply is not the norm anymore. We have new MMOs all the time. They all fail because it's not the 00s anymore and i'll never be. And you know who has the most succesful one? That's right, Blizzard. The current WoW team is full of passionate people, and that's not hard to see. Thing is, those people, those devs, are younger than the people who demand this "Classic+" Demonifying Blizzard won't change the fact that, as time goes by, your demographic is just not the main target anymore. If that's your main issue then im sorry but Blizzard is not your enemy, is time itself.
@@necrisro nah, all good games have been made already. What we need is old hardware. Gaming died the day that the word "Gamer" has become common vocabulary. And that's ok.
In the science of aesthetics community they tend to say that small asymmetries in the face aren't a flaw, in fact they add uniqueness and attractiveness to a face. I think that also applies to games like WoW Classic or DS 1, their imperfections aren't a flaw, but an extra that makes them unique and even more fun.
We are currently getting more than just Naxx. There is still no word on what will happen after. They said they want to keep the SoD around for guilds to get multiple Atieshs. I’m excited to see what is in store for SoD. I understand your view on classic. They did advertise it though as an experimental server. Though I feel they still haven’t done more. Until I saw what we are seeing now for phase 7. We are getting the Crypts and the Crystal Vale raid. Not sure what it is but the loading screen looks interesting.
Where Blizzard went wrong was the constant level cap increases and addition of micromanagy features that they thought would be cool but become irrelevant in the next expansion like garrisons, covenants, MAYBE battle pets. Things Blizzard should've focused and stuck to: classes, raids, pvp, story-telling.
I think the reason we can’t revisit that part of gameplay is the information from the internet . Nothing is a mystery, nothing stays hidden , nothing’s there to explore . Back then it didn’t matter for your group if your rings weren’t enchanted(not that much at least, ykwim) . It mattered that you are there with the boyz to do the karazhan raid and THATS what you did. If you didn’t do so well, you’ll still be invited in the next raid , because that’s what playin with the boyz is about. Now there’s a gatekeeping that the community has created themselves. And also THE main reason is … age ! Yeah , most of us are 30+ and 40. We can’t say every week we’ll be on at THAT time . IRL caught up. I’m glad I lived in that era of gaming . Now I only play games that I can close when I want to and not be part of some1’s schedule or timezone .
5:15 as a new player myself I've now played for about a week I spent 2 days on retail hit 50 had no idea what 90% of my skills did and didn't get why we were doing dungeons or quests because my friends already knew the story around them and I was just kinda there. So I swapped to classic anniversary for the experience of playing the game from the start IDK if other people resonate with this as well but you sir have hit the nail right on the head new players feel lost, confused and completely overwhelmed by retail and the game in its current state
This is why I have been enjoying EQ1 on classic emulated server. People rely on each other. You need a druid or wizard to teleport you, a cleric or paladin to rez you, a necro to summon your body.
as a long time player of both games, you hit the nail on the head the one thing i want to minorly disagree with about OSRS leagues is pointing out the main game cosmetic rewards: they aren’t a motivator at all, i don’t think anyone cares. the magic of them is that they are just FUN. fresh start with accelerated progress and stupidly overpowered builds for a short period of time, with a fresh theme and style every year. plus your character makes PERMANENT choices at intervals of progress that drastically alter the game from even other players in the forms of relics. so different strengths and weaknesses of each come out over time. niche uses, cliques around your “relic” choice. they strike the perfect balance of making you stupidly overpowered quickly but with limitations in which ways you’re overpowered and which regions you even have access to. meaning people will make multiple characters to try out different paths, and it’s always fun.
Chess actually HAS been "patched" and "rebalanced" over the years. For example, the ability of pawns to move 2 spaces from their home square wasn't in the game initially, and was introduced to speed games up. En Passant was then introduced to close a loophole where a pawn could "skip" past its opposing pawn as a result. The rules on promoting pieces have also changed a lot over the years, even into the past few decades where it was finally codified that you couldn't promote to a piece of the opposite color.
A big part of what works for OSRS is that the loot power tiers have not really increased since like 2005. They just have alternate options, I don't think WoW can function in that way they always have to have a new tier come out that is better than the current or there isn't much point unless they completely rework the game.
I still think we need hard raids... not because only sweats should clear it, just so that playerbase has something to really look up to and it'd be pretty gear reliant so a slow grind ( more resistance checks , bigger hp pools, slightly harder attacking bosses, nothing major overal but definitely 2-3x bigger HP pools will just make it a race or healer check and such)
It makes me happy that someone else sees it the way I do. I'm #NOCHANGES I just want more of it. "More vanilla, in the spirit of vanilla" is exactly what we want. The classic experience was never even close to being finished. All they have to do to hook me in for the next 2-3 years is keep releasing the stuff they already had planned. It's crazy that they haven't done it yet....
SOD is literally classic plus. If that wasn't what people wanted nothing Blizz will ever do will be good enough. They aren't capable of making a "pure" classic plus, it'll never happen.
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SoD was our first experience with Classic Plus. Problem was the devs gave up on the Sodcore and the players for the most followed the devs lead.
Those of us still logging in every day. We are the Classic Plus niche.... the Sodcore. Doing our thing until the next evolution of C+
I've been subbed 16 years playing a ranged hunter for 15 of them and melee hunter for the past year on the only version of wow that currently supports my spec.
I leveled my first 60 without incursions. Was not going to use a broken system until they fixed it.
Started using incursions once they were made into dailies. They are just another tool in the leveling toolbox.
The road to 60 can be paved with only pvp, dungeons, raids, incursions or good old fashion leveling, or a mixed leveling experience of al;l of the above.
And SoD offers both an accelerated leveling experience, or a normal leveling experience(by shutting the bonus xp off). A customizable option.
you should give ashes of creation a try i think you will like it
why not just play turtle wow ?
I had stopped playing after cata because I had felt the game changed too far from what it was and never looked back other then checking up on lore stuff from videos...which ya know.... yeah. Anyways thanks for all your sacrifice for the community and I hope more to come for us to look back on and reminisce on.
the real classic+ is the delusions we made along the way
OSRS established a pretty solid template for Blizzard to simply follow, but they will never do it.
Wow isn’t a sandbox.
@@shakeyownz please shut up
@@shakeyownz That is true, but I don't see how they couldn't try and do something similar. Having a hard cap to level 60, unlocking the profession limit and just adding new gear woth more incremental boosts instead of squishing the stats of old gear could be interesting. Adding to existing areas instead of only making new ones and polling the additions would also be incredibly fun imo.
@@shakeyownz I'm sorry, I don't really understand as I'm not familiar with how the sandbox model prevents the OSRS voting system (which is what I think the OP is referring to) from being applied to WoW. Can you explain? Thanks!
people need to get it through their thick skulls that the Blizzard that made great games is long gone, these are just people with lack of talent pupeteering the corpse to keep using its name
The video starts with "too many cooks" and now the comment section is flooded with all the cooks sharing their classic plus secret recipe lolololol
Funny. But if a few good cooks who actually have the kitchen pick the best of every recipe it can still be a good menu.
The video itself also had some cooking sugestions at the end😂.
Most of the things he added at the end was just TBC, but in the classic world.😅
that is like saying osrs voting is too many cooks
SOD is classic+
meanwhile the real recipe is already available at turtle wow and no one talks about it.
I don't think Blizzard has the talent anymore to pull this off.
this. correct. classic+ means work. they need to make unique content again which they just cant do.
Ohh they have a lots of talent and enthusiasm to do so... Most of the people working for Blizzard are there because of their endless love for their games...
@@martin9202 Everyone who created vanilla WoW is gone, every single person. The people at Blizzard today don't have a single percentage of the talent that the OGs had.
@@AlmostAeroGauge LoL, you cannot even imagine how wrong you are... :D it's funny (you might see your comment somewhere, some time) :D
@@AlmostAeroGauge almost certainly everyone at blizzard has more talent than the people that founded Blizzard, they just dont have the creative freedom. there's a difference.
Turtle got it right. New zone quests, dungeon revamps, professions and loot, hell new zones and dungeons all the way from Westfall to Tanaris. Valuing the part of the game that holds the most people, leveling. Ofc they didnt stop there either. Hopefully one day Blizzard will understand again.
they won't because people keep giving them money for the same old garbage, channel owner included
@@pokemonduck i bet you do to.
They have some pay2win and the client is garbage
@@antonioazevedo9166client is old, maybe even janky but it's perfectly fine and they are working on a UE5 upgrade, and also nothing about it is pay to win. I really don't know why people are waiting for blizzard to do classic plus wrong, when turtle wow has been doing it right since 2018.
@@antonioazevedo9166 yet the experience on turtle is overall better than anything the multi-million company can deliver with their creatively bankrupt skeleton crew
In Vanilla, the world was the main character.
The WORLD of Warcraft. Not the instance of Warcraft.
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World of Warcraft from the start was itself a compromise between open world and instanced content, because most of the guys who made the game were Everquest veterans who frequently raided there and saw instances as a solution to the "problem" (some people may see it as a problem, some not) that was early Everquest, with no instances whatsoever, not even in raids. Vanilla was born with instancing, so it wasnt the world in itself the main character, lets be real. Most people just think it is because they didnt played or remember the pre-WoW mmos -- mainly EQ, SWG and UO if we are talking the great PVE experiences of that era.
Your point makes sense in comparison to what came after WoW, not before -- but even then Vanilla WoW is this "middle ground" (and I'm not even sure if is the best way to see it) of these mmos.
No. Players change. Its not the game. You go to classic and people are spamming chat for dungeon runs, no ones gives a fuck about the world. They all use questie and restedXP.
@@user-fv7jd4xj5n They changed because they learned what has the most challenge and most reward after playing the game over and over again and reading every guide (and using addons, like you said - there are also some which report XP gains per hour). When I say challenge I don't mean it to the extreme, as dungeons aren't particularly difficult, even if you're 4 levels below the end boss, but they are a hell of a lot more engaging than questing, and the loot, gear, and XP that comes out of them generally leaves the open world obsolete to the savvy player. The only exception is if you're on a PvP server and actively seeking combat.
In fact, many of the quests which grant the best items outside dungeons are embarrassingly worse than what you can get from dungeons that were already available to you for several levels - and that pitiful reward requires you to spend real life hours walking through zones you outlevel (which are empty of other players, thanks to "layering", one of the worst additions to Classic), or sitting on the same flight path you've been on 20 times. The only difference to that
A proper Classic+ should include several new vast elite areas, and I mean huge, multi-level mazes you can actually get lost in and have to learn your way around, for all levels 6-60. Give them frequent treasure that spawns more often if PvP kills are occurring in the zone. Elite areas are already where the best, most vicious PvP already happens, and they offer significant XP/loot gains over typical questing and grinding, so adding even more of them will lead to people grouping up and spending more time out there grouping with randoms in the world.
Blizzard will NEVER stop people dungeon spamming if they want the fastest XP. They can nerf some things, like letting mobs benefit from diminishing returns on soft and hard CC, to prevent spellcleave from being so effective, for example. But it will still be faster XP even in a traditional group. And locking the instance reset timer to 24 hours, or one week, or whatever, will lead to unhealthy instance group culture. They need to add more to the game. You are correct, once again, the players changed. Now it's Blizzard's turn to change the game for the better, and rather than try to chase the players who are spamming dungeons they should throw a bone to players who want more open world.
Can't wait for Classic- where we have to stop Arthas from meeting Kel'Thuzad with Live-wing
And then you wake up
@@alrightylol Grab a brush and put a little make-up
Hide the scars to fade away the shake-up
I was dreaming of a WoW 2 oder Classic plus or whatever taking place in a time short before the First War happened so we can replay all of the history we learned about
The true vanilla + is Turtle wow, try it out and stop looking to Blizzard to save the game.
@@djshade69 I don't want to
This literally just sounds like Turtle WoW, you even show the turtle talent tree at the end lol
But did he play it
@@SuTSunShine doubt it, doesn't wanna get fired by daddy Blizz
yeah because twow is good and blizzard is need to take an example from them
@@reforged3588honestly if blizz ported twow into current client, it would be absolutely insane. The og client in twow is ass
@@reforged3588 if blizzard were valve they would simply hire the people responsible for that and get them to do changes, at which point within a year people would go from praise to whinning because wow players dont know what they want anyways
As someone who has played both wow and osrs, I really don't think most wow players understand what they're asking for when they say they want osrs style classic +. Needing 70% of the active player base to agree on all updates is a massive risk. Before Sailing passed, lots of people thought the polling system would kill the game by preventing any major additions. The Old School community has had years to get used to the voting system. If wow players got it tommorow, it might take years before anything passes
I would also worry about WoW bots and their ability to vote on polls.
I know osrs has alot of bots but when I played wow there were bots that would just never get banned.
Not to mention OSRS doesn't have classes.... whos changes could never be up to community vote.
Polling is one of the worst things to happen to OSRS and it only has gotten worse over the time. Its all survivorship bias and playerbase segregation between PvP and PvE players.
"Would you like 2x xp rate on a skill? yes absolutely i hate playing this game" "Would you want new content to bring more players to wilderness? no i hate engaging with people in MMO's"
@@hdgevin It's not quite that bad on OSRS, but with all the factionalism in WoW, it might be like that in Classic +
Very easily influenced by spite voting as well. One reason PVP updates literally never make it to the game.
I think turtle wow has it down pretty good.
New dungeons and BGs, some meme specs are actually viable and most importantly no blood elves only high elves.
This.
Ah, a fellow Turtle.
Tried it for a bit but man.. that old client is so clunky it felt unplayable for me..
@@simpa94 it's not the Real Experience unless it's clunky
Had 10 year break from retail, came back this year to War within, but got bored of the constant mindless mythics, raiding, and generally easy gameplay. Levelling in retail is just something to push through, they've clearly given that up.
Found Twow through YT after 3 months of retail, and cancelled subscription within 1 day.
The best thing about Twow is that even if someone is ridiculously geared, they still need to group up to do lvl 50 dungs(ST, BRD, etc.), and this creates a very friendly environment where people are actually dependent on each other. The new dungeons(expanded Wailing caverns and Deadmines to mention a few) are top tier, item drop% for consumables, quest, trade goods, and certain rares increased, which prevents ridiculous AH prices and profession botting.
Super friendly community with continuous updates and a bunch of RPers which brighten your day - had a guy RP as a SW guard who accused me of not showering before entering AH xD
And its free.
I think there’s a lot of nuance of what you presented here. I love the simplicity of Classic compared to Retail but that does’t mean I want to play auto attack simulator when playing Paladin.
I like unbalance and some classes being good in some roles that others don’t, but I don’t like only being able to play a specific “viable” spec or class to get invited to groups.
"to play a specific “viable” spec or class to get invited to groups." This doesn't happen unless you decide to play with complete PUGs all the time, or if your guild is trash. Literally anyone who is elitist-gating your class in this game is a piece of garbage. I blame Asmongold, quite frankly you should too.
everything is viable in classic which is nice, especially now that the debuff limit has been removed.
@@Shorkshire This is just objectively false. Everything is pretty much viable in TBC, which in my opinion is the far better version of WoW, nothing is fun about Vanilla balancing. It's one of the things many people can agree is garbage about the game.
@@torrybrockert5750 most players are pugging these days. WoW is a dad game, and a lot of those people aren't comfortable with needing to be at their computers every week at a certain time(s). That's part of the reason GDKP became so popular. It's basically pugs on demand. That's just how people play now. So the game has to cater to that to at least some extent. One of the way is to make the classes and specs closer together. They don't have to be close like retail is now with all the damage specs being within about 3% of each other, but it can't be like in Vanilla where a fury warrior did something like 4x the damage of a ret paladin.
As for the thing with Asmongold, that dude was just telling how it was. If you want to blame anybody, blame the current game director Ion who used to run a guild called . Their website was one of the top theorycrafting sites back in the day. So it was people like him who figured out what classed were good and bad.
You won't play auto attack simulator as paladins as you will be forced to heal
Vanilla with the TBC prepatch would be such a great foundation to build on like 2007scape did.
TBC talents was awfull, awfull pve rotations, awfull pvp with endless resists/stuns from spec.
Anyway people need to leave that idea alone, blizzard proven they cant make anything.
If you ask me, they should add tbc and wotlk, scale it all down to 60 (40-60), make it one big world.
No more items artificially made useless above 60, many useful trinkets and random weapons with interesting effects, many raids and dungeons, everything at level 60.
Useful talents and spells can be added from scrolls, books dropped off of bosses, quest lines, whatever. They already used books to do this in vanilla.
@@alrightylol I think most people would agree that the direction of TBC prepatch was a good one even if the implementation was poor, and that enabling more specializations to play in PvP and PvE is a good thing. I don't think the Classic+ community would be upset if Blizzard spent a decent amount of time in a Classic+ "preseason" where they spend time discovering what and where to place each specialization, and how to help them.
@@alrightylol TBC was about as balanced as the game ever was while still maintaining the RPG feel. Besides, it would just be a starting point. There would still be adjustments made.
@@alrightylol "awfull" pve roation as if Frostbolt was a rotation LoL
Turtle WoW has new content and class balancing. It might be a private server, but the love shows that they understand Classic + better than anyone.
The active purging of bots alone makes Turtle WoW such a nice experience compared to Blizzard's shitshow.
My experience with Turtle WoW was swarms of multi-boxers and botters instantly tapping every quest mob. The real players I encountered were about what I remember in CoD lobbies. An absolutely terrible experience.
I do think the changes they've made are great though. Just wish it wasn't covered in the slime of its own playerbase.
@@foobazabar
Sounds like your experience occured during the time when tons of chinese players came to the server.
That was indeed an... experience.
They got their own server now :)
turtle wow as a client is great but the community is mind numbing, its full of meat head morons all trying to outdo each other on who can say the most brain dead sht in world chat
@@foobazabar never seen a bot on the server
Chess did get balance patches. Before 1828 you could only promote to pieces that were already captured, so you couldn't get two queens.
They still make minor changes sometimes, like changing the 50 move rule to the 100 move rule sometimes (in the 60s).
WoW classic makes everything important, that's kind of why it works, because it utilizes the entire game. Leveling is important yes, but also crafting, gathering, PvP, leveling-dungeons, Quest rewards, specific stat-breakpoints and general preparedness for the world. Time spent playing classic is spent planning ahead for what comes next, your agency is maximized and it's your own fault (mostly) when you don't meet your goals. I think this is fantastic and the leveling, especially with a few friends, couldn't be better. I think the biggest enemy of classic+ in the way described is modern audiences, they will theorycraft and break classic+s little kneecaps and then we are stuck with people leveling optimally, playing optimally and asking for changes as the way to play optimally turned out to not be fun.
runescape music in the back lol. he is slowing becoming one of us!
ONE OF US ONE OF US
osrs music is free use and amazing, literally carries countless video essays type videos.
@@patigelstarberry4302its rs2 music not osrs music ffs!
@@the__man osrs is rs2
10:13 chess rules have changed a lot in the past, though.
But not how the pieces move, right? I think that the last such change was probably en passant. But you're right that 50-move rule changed recently.
@@jrblackify the pawns had how they moved changed, they were not originally able to move two squares forward for their first move. Also castling was not originally allowed either
Also chess's devs changed the skins when the game was ported to Europe from India 😂
@@jrblackify Once upon a time, the queen was the worst piece. She got to move two spaces on her first movement and only one square DIAGONALLY after that. Quite literally got reworked.
I don't see each class as a different chess piece, I see the classes as a whole chess colour. Some classes will win almost every battle, and some classes will lose almost every battle.
what a fun and non-controversial topic.
Cool pfp
You're wrong about chess, it has been changed, more than once even. In early iterations, the queen had a much smaller move set and could only move 1-square diagonally. It actually had its move set buffed more than once over time. Hell, the queen isn't even the only piece that had its move set changed, not to mention there were entire rules that were changed/reworked as well concerning the game as a whole. There usd to be alternate ways to win outside of checkmate, stalemates used to mean a loss and not a tie, castling didn't used to exist, pawn promotion could only select from already-captured materials. There are more changes as well if you do a brief google search.
I agree with everything you said, but that was actually a swing and a miss of an analogy.
Much love and respect for your videos!
You dont think trashseason actually ever had a thought do you?? Dude had a mental breakdown because of a token, but still wont move on from wow. Its amazing and I cant look away from this trainwreck
@@JimSmith-g2d Please do not associate me with your toxicity, I'm not interested in badmouthing someone for making a fun youtube video. I was just sharing something I noticed. Have a good day.
The chess argument was where I stopped watching too, but kind of from the other direction. The homogenization argument is always so weird to me. We have had meta comps for all forms of content across raid, pvp and dungeons for as long as I've been playing (end of MoP) and homogenization hasn't prevented that from being a thing at all.
I was looking for this comment!
Google en passant
classes having huge flaws made them so much more interesting, like I remember in Vanilla, BC and WOTLK people looked at Warrior as such an exotic and cool class despite a bunch of other classes just doing so many things better than Warrior and partly it was because Warrior was so full of flaws but if you built it up and had friends and certain situations around you it did so well in a certain environment, the flaws didn't really need fixing, it gave it character and class fantasy
I've been on turtle wow. It's refreshing seeing loads of people in every zone.
Twow is by far the best vanilla+ server out there, and i seriously doubt that blizz will manage to match it purely because of their lack of love and passion but who knows, i might be proven wrong.
Yeah cuz it doesn't have a layering system. Which just makes the game a job to play if you actually have a life.
@@mitchconner2021 Id much rather have a healthier player base and economy than being on an empty server just to lvl up faster. Vanilla wow is about player interaction and exploring a world that feels alive, layering would kill that.
@@georgearapis935 Twow is good but that old ass client makes it a pain to play, even with all the tweaks and shit.
Only thing its missing is modern client, its a huge pain to run multi monitor setup with old vanilla client.
There's a serious flaw in comparing the balance of an MMO to the balance of a game like chess. While in chess, I must start off with 8 pawns, 2 rooks, 2 bishops, 2 knights, a queen, and a king, in an MMO, I don't need to bring a set number of each class. If it turned out that before playing a game of chess, I could choose to bring 15 queens, I absolutely would.
ok and the other faction can do the same thing
unless the queens are shamans, alright what am i saying , you win
Which is why we see with how brown classic raid rosters are. Now would it be a better experience if there were more viable/optimal options? I honestly couldn't say but I feel like at least options that are currently unthinkably unplayable could be fixed a bit to at least work
He wasn't really comparing the balance, he was comparing the unit design philosophy to class design. Not a perfect analogy, but you understand what he's saying if you take it into context.
@ I understand exactly what he was saying, which is that part of chess’s greatness is due to the fact that each of the pieces do different, unique things, and that it would be a mistake to buff the weaker pieces because then chess would lose its richness. He *was* talking about balance, not just unit design philosophy. He was talking about the relationship between balance on the one hand and unit uniqueness on the other hand-there is a push and pull here.
The problem, as I said, is that you are forced to start each game with a set number of pieces in chess, but that’s just not the case with classes in wow. It’s all fine and good to have some pieces be far shittier than others because you have to use them-you don’t have a choice. But in an MMO, I don’t have to use the shitty pieces. I can just tell them to go away and wait until I have good pieces.
That is why it’s a silly analogy. You can *only* really make Madseason’s point if you also insist that in classic+, group compositions should be forced, so that you have to take a set number of each class.
I picked up vanilla during the Naxxramas pre-event; I rolled a human priest based on the character I had been using for DnD (human cleric). In the early levels when I went to train my skills, I was too poor to afford them all and since my DnD character was lawful good I skipped buying the shadow spells (plenty of holy spells that deal damage anyway!). Once I hit level 10 and unlocked talents, I forsake the Shadow tree as again it didn't fit the character I wanted to play (healer/holy nuker). As you can imagine, this made leveling in the game very hard.
An irl friend who was on the server looked at my character and said I should re-spec shadow. I told him I wanted to heal and use holy spells, he explained how terrible that would be for leveling and that if I wanted to heal, I would first have to spend levels 1-59 as shadow. Also that I should re-roll as a dwarf.
From the moment I started playing, strangers would whisper me and tell me I picked the wrong race; I should quit this character and re-roll a dwarf. By the time my free month had ran out I was level 36 and had played the game enough to know how much better a dwarf priest truly was. I never came back to vanilla, but did reroll gnome warlock and ended up raiding TBC thru Cata.
After Blizzard the worst thing about wow is unfortunately it's players.
You had a fun approach towards the game! Those who were pestering you with their "recommendations" were tryhards who suck all the fun out of any game XD well done!
Fear ward was what made dwarf priests OP, but humans had +5% spirit which is more useful in healing
You should have rerolled to horde as warlock, just kidding... or am i?
I could be having the worst day, then hear the intro guitar plucks to a madseason video, then everything washes away
Alliance High Elves, Horde Ogres, Quel'Thalas/Ghostlands area filled with Blood Elves hostile to both factions, including dungeons and raids in Silvermoon City similar to Stratholme and Blackrock Depths.
Madseason is on a crusade to keep me entertained recently, and he's doing a damn fine job at it.
Damn fine.
i can agree that charm is very important, and i don't want huge class changes like SoD. But it is stupid, and i can't imagine it is what the developers originally wanted, to have completely useless class roles in the game. Like only warriors being tanks and druids, shammys, and paladins all being forced to heal. That is beyond charm into removing all the RP if your chosen class is only decent at one thing.
Druid tanks are good already, and forcing shamans/rets to heal is actually great for the game because otherwise filling a 40 man with 10 healers would be nearly impossible.
With the 20th anniversary I leveled my last WoW character, I got to 60 on my Paladin the morning of December 1st, just 3hrs before my 29 year long subscription finally expired.
I bring this up because during this final leveling I discovered an area I'd never seen before, its in the south east of Desolace, behind the Magram Centaur base that has all the water, if you can get around behind all that water there is a tiny break in the cliffs which leads to Shadowbreak Ravine, its a Twilight Hammer ritual area with one of their towers & a stable that houses a bunch of Felsteeds then if you go up the path there's a big summoning circle. Wowpedua says it was initially supposed to be used for the Warlock's Felsteed quest, but since that was cut nothing sends you there, the obly thing it has is some of the Felhunters you can kill for their brains for one of the quests (at least on Alliance). The area has some really cool plague mushrooms with a blue glow that I don't think I've seen anywhere else in the game.
Another spot I learned about recently from a video is that there is a cool area in STV where you can sit under a waterfall, it's just south of the Naga area where you kill them for the Akris Reeds, you can see the waterfalls from the south of their island area at the bridge, if you stick to the mountains there will be a little pathway that weaves up so you can walk under the waterfall, there are also a bunch of rocks jutting out that could be used as diving boards, really cool little vista whhere you can just sit and relax.
These spots aren't new, they were created over 20 years ago now, but they were new to me as of this past month, even after playing for the last 18 years (I took over the sub from my dad when he passed, so the sub has been for 20, I just only played 18 of those years) I could still find new areas I'd never seen before in Vanilla.
Youll be back
its now ive started making content that not only do i enjoy your videos but am amazed at the effort and detail that goes into every single one, espcially the documentary which i slap on in the background every now and then, you are literally the standard at which all hope to be at
chess has been patched a couple times actually to be completely accurate
I think the two things I would want most from classic+ would be class tuning and zone finishing.
Classic was designed with the concept of the hybrid tax where classes that could perform multiple roles were made worse at those roles in order for it to be fair. But this just isn't a good idea it turns out. So in classic+ I'd like to see buffs to prot and ret paladin, balance and feral (both cat and bear) druid, shadow and disc priest, and enh and ele shaman so that all these roles are roughly as viable as the other classes (and so feral druids no longer have to farm manual crowd pummelers and wear a level 45 helm all throughout end game to manage to still not be as good as rogue or warrior dps). And even though they're not a hybrid class, warlocks too just because you never really see them in end-game except for like 1 per raid group to summon. Along these same lines of class tuning I'd like to see tier sets reworked to give bonuses to all specs like how retail tier bonuses do, that way your tier set doesn't pigeonhole you into being a druid healer or whatever. Though I do agree that the unbalanced nature of the game is part of its charm, so I don't need things to be perfectly balanced. Warriors could even remain the best dps. I just don't want some specs to be so terrible in comparison. (But what you said about chess actually isn't true, it's been balanced and changed a lot of times. For example, bishops used to only be able to move 2 spaces. Plus, a problem with the chess analogy is that while the pieces aren't balanced with respect to each other, each player uses all the pieces. A truer comparison to WoW would be a chess game where you only play as one piece, and other people play as other pieces. Obviously everybody's going to want to be the queen.)
And for zone finishing, I'd really like to see the stuff that the classic development team planned to be in classic but got cut. Of course it would be cool to see whole zones that got cut, like the Emerald Dream, but really I'm just talking about stuff that's in the game but is incomplete, like most of Kalimdor. The questing in Kalimdor is just obviously not finished (Azshara is an obvious example, but a lot of the zones are very quest sparse or have quest lines with no conclusion. It's pretty difficult in the level 30-40 range to not need to go to Eastern Kingdoms to find quests). And I think if classic+ is going to add any zones the first one should definitely be Mount Hyjal because it's half in the game already. It's labeled on the map and everything.
What I would definitely NOT like to see in classic+ are flying mounts, daily or weekly quests, or new class/race combinations.
I think TBC got it right. There's still a hybrid tax, but it's much lower, and hybrids have unique buffs that make up for the lack of direct damage .
The issue with the hybrid tax is that warriors do not pay it.
If they did, fury/arms would do roughly as much DPS as cat/ret and tank as well as prot paladins and bears.
@@LeRoiduSaucisson-t4o I mean, they kind of were paying it in TBC. Warriors didn't do well until T6. But I'd be down to nerf warrior dps. Rage normalization is totally a thing that should happen.
@@seanwilliams7655 TBC is when they dropped the hybrid tax iirc.
Everyone was doing decent damage to the point that "selfish" classes that didn't bring useful buffs/debuffs started to get sidelined. It's what prompted the utility creep from TLK onwards.
It's not that warriors were nerfed, it's that everyone else was buffed into viability coupled with the disappearance of world buffs and ungodly amounts of consumables that propped warriors up.
I agree with rage normalisation, btw.
@@LeRoiduSaucisson-t4o they lowered it in TBC. It wasn't dropped completely until Wrath and Ghostcrawler with his "bring the player not the class" philosophy.
At least WoW players are admitting the copium and owning it.
I respect that.
Despite common misconception, chess had several balance patches ☝️🤓
Was about to say!! Rules have constantly changed, with new moves and further nuance created over time.
Also chess requires you to start with all of the different types of pieces. If you could replace all other pieces with queens I feel like a lot of people would and the game would play very very differently.
Which is the issue that wow in general but definitely classic has, where some race/class combinations are just entirely better than others and when you get to pick and chose who can come into the group of course most people are gonna chose the combinations that are going to give the highest and quickest chance at success.
Yeah, but the overall concept of Chess hasn't changed. No new pieces, no new board. It's the same layout, same everything, the only change has been adjusting the rules to keep it fresh/interesting. Chess itself hasn't changed, at all, it's just Chess, but the rules we put on it change it accordingly. (No, 4d Chess and those quasi-trans-dimensional chess games are not Chess, those are gimmicks)
Same argument can be made on anything. A Cake is the same as every cake ever baked, but it's different once you do it. Chess is the same as it has always been, until we decided it wasn't, yet it still is. Chess is chess.
People always claim it's nostalgia, but it isn't. Classic WoW has properties barely any other MMO including its own expansions have. For example the very process of leveling is part of the (positive) experience in Classic, which is difficult enough that it incentivizes people to group up and socialize, while in its expansions it's just a stepping stone to skip over, and all more doable alone. GuildWars 2 is the next best game that has that.
And if you think "leveling up" is such a menial part, remember that Oblivion, Skyrim, Morrowind, Witcher (3), Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter, and many more have 100% of their played time in the "leveling up" phase. As of WoW it's more split between 1-60 and 60 with items.
Saw someone on Reddit say, "Just put Classic into TBC prepatch and make new content." I'm down for this.
I do think TBC talents are mostly better
Awesome video as always. I gotta say tho, It's a pet peeve of mine whenever Mad uses the chess analogy. Chess IS balanced. Even if the pieces are different between each other, both players have the same amount of them in the same arrangement.
Wow isn't unbalanced because skills are different between each other, but because different classes can only use some of those skills.
Wow is better with out homogeneous.
Yeah the only imbalance seems to be who gets to go first, but if you play two games it evens out?
the classes are the pieces silly, and you're agreeing with him - he said the same thing. It's balanced like chess rather than like checkers, and I think we can all agree chess gameplay is more interesting than checkers.
@@mrillis9259yeah Classic raids are definitely not homogenous. There were only * checks notes * 30 warriors in the speedruns. Imagine if every pawn could be replaced by a warrior. If he wants to keep the chess analogy then there has to be a forced reason for ten pawns to be in a group. Why would anyone play pawn (Druid) when they could play queen (warrior/mage)…
@@Slushybear405 he means the classes being homogenous. How ppl decide to grp them isn't the point. Besides, using speed runs as a comparison is disingenuous bc ppl do crazy things for speed runs etc. Its not the norm or required.
Vanilla+ already exists : Turtle WoW, project Epoch and much more less anticipated or known project made by peoples who actually plays and likes the game that aren't (only) motivated by milking players and making the lowest amount of effort possible
Bro project epoch has been pending for a year lmao, they aint ever gonna be ready to release!
Project Epoch is dead on arrival. Its been forgotten about anyway lol
I think your points about "cadence" and its knock on effects are the most important, and weirdly something Blizzard never seems to address. To me, that's the entire lesson they should be learning from the popularity of HC WoW. People seem to really like gearing slowly, leveling carefully, and then doing it all over again when they mess up. They like leveling. They like the task of reaching endgame as much as (if not more than) endgame itself.
SOD can't take advantage of this because of the seasonal cadence issue, but I'd hope that if Classic+ ever exists, they recognize that blitzing through content to max level isn't the point.
Very much this. SoD's many level and gear skips completely butchers the structure of the main game. If you just want to skip to raiding it's probably fine, but if you don't, there's not much else left. You'll be 60 very quickly with gear that was basically free and better or as good as much of the 5-man end-game gear. Now what?
The unknown Quest item that you carry till 60 killed me 😂😂
I’m ngl as a newish player (played the expansion before dragon flight and up) going back to classic is legitimately so hard bc of how simple it is. Going from knowing a whole rotation and needing to move around on frost mage while simultaneously keeping good dps, kinda boring to just stand there and do damage and the leveling takes forever. One thing I do like about classic is that the quests and world seems more like you’re just in the world doing things and not some super hero that needs to stop the fate of the world. You kinda work your way up to that in classic
Great video but chess argument doesnt work. Chess was actually "patched" multiple times over the span of hundreds of years. We have optimized it a lot,and its a good thing.
Also when you play chess you don't just play 1 piece (character)
So was wow, what's your point?
@@jimh8040 yeah, and if they did, anyone not playing Queen would be at a severe disadvantage. That analogy completely missed the mark in multiple ways.
I am 26 and new to WoW, I have tried to get into the game in the past but the environment of retail was miserable for me. I jumped into Classic because I enjoy OSRS, I really loved the pacing and exploring the world in Classic.
I absolutely agree with you that if we were to get a Classic+ I would want to see the world slowly expand, adding zones that weren't able to be added at Vanillas release like Hyjal and Gilneas, I would also like to see new questlines that weave these new zones with old zones at all levels providing players with more options with quests to keep the leveling experience fun and fresh for new and old players.
Im playing Paladin and I like that the classes have their limitations. I ended up not liking SoD because it felt like the atmosphere of the game was too different and classes lost their unique charm.
Thank you for the video!
Bro just play turtle wow! It has:
Gilneas
Hyjal
3 new raids
Updated dungeons so early level content is fun and fresh
Class changes+additions (ret and prot pala actually viable for example, same with enhancement/ele shaman and more)
New items mounts and allat
A vibrant and generally welcoming and (in my experience) very NOT toxic community
And all that, COMPLETELY FREE! You dont have to pay these blizzard corporats a dime.
I think you enjoyed it because it's new to you and you are experiencing everything for the first time and you don't have a database worth of knowledge about everything. How do you like healing? because as a paladin you will be forced to do it.
@@Ysylla5I think he enjoyed it for the reasons he stated he enjoyed it lmao
I think it’s so cool that players like you talk about what you would like in Classic+/Vanilla+ and you’re basically talking about turtle wow. It’s absolutely fantastic! Give it a try.
Blizzard, in it's current state, is not capable of giving us the Classic+ we deserve.
exactly, the people that made what are still some of the best games ever made, are no longer with the company, the philosophy of "dev make the calls" is gone, what blizzard has become is, by design, unable to make games like wc3, wow-wotlk, diablo 1-2, starcraft/bw, the closest theyll ever get to that level of quality is repackaging what was already made
They could be, but that would require the parent company/management to give them enough time and resources to actually do good development. When Blizzard made all their smash hit games back in days of yore, they abided by "it's done when it is done" for release dates. That's long been trashed and boy does it show.
Old Blizz couldn't do that either :DD
I agree that the current Blizzard bleeds from an unending amount of wounds, but so many people forget or straight up ignore just how many stupid, nonsensical and harmful decisions they made in the past. The lawsuits happened because of these "great" past developers too, you know. They made good games, and so what? They couldn't maintain any of them, only mess them up or to let them rot in abandonment.
In fact, despite its tremendous amount of problems, DF and TWW brought in many player requested features which "good ol" Blizz ignored for an extremely long time, with another example, that being player housing, also coming in the next expansion
@@karmaceutical3963 That's bullshit... They are absolutely capable of doing it... The issue is Vanilla was born mainly because of enthusiasm and passion of the fictional world they created in warcraft series... That's why it's called World of Warcraft... As indie game studio, just are just passionate about the idea and that empowers you... You create out of passion and as small team you communicate and make decisions together... HOWEVER, as you get bigger and bigger financial aspects and "paying the saleries" overtakes passion and enthusiasm and then you get to the stage as Blizzard/Microsoft is in... They have resources, but since Retail is basically printing money they won't do anything that could threaten it ... If popularity will keep falling as it is now, then we might see something new (worthy)...
@@heli0nsIT would require people who have their Hearts in the Old World of WarCraft, the passion for the world itself. Not their heads cramped into "We have to please all the Players. Everyone should be able to do it. All classes and Specs should be able to do it." etc. And currently i dont See anyone at Blizzard Like this. All those devs are gone. They left Blizzard.
That chess analogy is OP. it should be taught in every public school.
I remember in Vanilla there was a Orc Rogue who camped the hell out of duskwood. This was on the Crushridge server, we always called it Crashridge.
Turtle wow did the vanilla+
they historically have scammed players and sold lvl 60 accounts. its pay to win
Just play the game lol
@@cothromgrimr161
@ why would I want to waste my time when I know I can just buy everything I want?
@@cothromgrimr161 haha you can buy anything on blizzard servers, so why waste time?
@ so give up and never enjoy it as intended again. Got it
Hey man, I think a lot of people are being too harsh on SOD. I'm just gonna say it, for classic+ to be a success there HAS to be class changes. Did sod take it too far? Yeah. But people need to think of players who LOVE classic wow, but they want to play one of the "meme" specs that blizzard just never finished. These classes were clearly intended to be played but they are so weak it's just not enjoyable. Is it a good thing that the only viable tank in vanilla is warrior...? No it's not. Bears, paladins, and shamans were CLEARLY designed to be able to tank. I'm not saying give everyone everything but having these other classes around brings extra flavor, having 14 warriors doesn't. I've seen amazing things in sod for people who like these meme specs to finally be able to play their class and not get completely shit on for it, just don't forget that.
Classic is hurt by no rage normalization. Rage should only scale with a few statistics, not strength.
If you want class changes go play retail bro. Tell me you play a ret paladin without telling me you play a ret paladin.
@@MicrocosmicExperienceImagine wanting no class changes and to continue developing the game trying to ape the previous game design. Don't worry bud, when classic+ happens the classic era servers will still be there for rejects like you 😁
@MicrocosmicExperience tell me you parse green without telling me you parse green
Nice cope. Your meta slave is showing.
What i would want from Classic+ is stuff like:
-An epic questline to cleanse the corrupted ashbringer (Onyxia pre-quest style)
-Introduce an actual pre-quest for Naxx
-Make Mt.Hyjal an endgame zone
-Fix and add all the stuff that was originally planned for vanilla (dragon isles, emerald dream)
-Maybe make max lvl 70 because the amount of cut content is way too much to fit into lvl 50-60 content that´s laready there
-class changes that make sense without making them op (small stuff like better mana management for druids and shamans, crusader strike from SoD should stay)
AND the most important thing is to add all that while keeping it classic (stuff like normal mobs dropping items that are useful but niche for example)
Edit: lol i wrote this before watching!^^
And paladin taunt. T.T
I want emerald dream added too. Originally when you died you went to the emerald dream before they changed the lore so it was only druids who could also just freely go.
You could choose to rez back on azeroth or stay in the ed and do quests
Agreed with everything except increasing the level cap. Increasing the level cap will make all the current level 60 stuff completely irrelevant, which has been the worst part about expansions since their inception. They should add tons of new stuff, but still have some BiS pieces come from Naxx, BWD, etc. Maybe you'd have 98% of your gear come from the Emerald Dream or Hyjal, but still carry Thunderfury with you.
@DankMemes-xq2xm bad news. The level cap was ALWAYS supposed to start with 70 and the raids were ALWAYS supposed to be staggered. You can literally see the level ranges in the original map that included northrend, outland, kul tires, and dragon isles.
Also since you want to make shit up, you used vanilla gear in tbc. You used tbc gear in wrath, but it wouldn't matter if it was in vanilla or not, you would have NEVER hit an end with gear progression in an mmorpg. It's just not going to happen. Whether t4-9 happened in expansions or vanilla, you wouldn't have kept shit from ***BWL** IN content that existed after naxx, because you didn't even do it during naxx.
Turtle WoW has most of these things.
Every time, that opening theme: "Iiiiiit's the MadSeason Showwwwww"
Just me? Ok
"You can bail faster than Blizzard did from Season of Discovery."
the most enjoyable part of every video you make, is how much in sync my mindset is with yours. well done on another great video !
I'd love to see Classic+! There are a lot of zones in vanilla that are empty (Silithus, Tanaris, Hyjal), so it'd be rad to see them get some love.
Also, I love the 10 man raids from Season of Discovery so an expansion of those would be great
The sad part people needs to understand is that we will never get a good polished Classic+
Blizzard can't care less about WoW anymore, they just doing the bare minimum to make A % of players to pay for sub fee years in years out, and spend some cash in the Shop, that's why we see new Classic 60s begin released over and over again with some changes!
Regarding the worldbuilding in Classic, there is one thing that I love in classic and also other old games, which is nowhere to be found in modern WoW is a sense of mundanity. Some NPCs are regular people, going on with their daily lives, asking you for simple help, like getting some water from a fountain or just telling you how their day is. And you start as one of them and have to make a long way to the top. In modern WoW expansions, everything constantly has to be epic. You are the chosen one from day one, every quest leads towards a big climax of fighting a big dragon or some terribly evil undead boss, which has been killed three times already but is still brought back in every expansion due to some lore reasons (looking at you, Illidan, Archimonde, Kill Jaeden, ...).
Yet at the start of every next expansion, you're back to collecting 10 bird feathers that drop only 10% of the time.
Love love love that you're using Runescape music even in Wow vids now, as a fellow guy around your age that just recently got into RS partly because of your own attempt to try it, it's just wonderful and palys such a strong role juxtaposed w/ Wow and what a truly good classic+ would look like. I agree that the voting system wouldn't quite work with Wow's community but in basically every other way OSRS is the absolute prime example of this kind of thing.
3 TH-cam ads and a minute+ paid ad, all by 10:38. Jesus. I hope they're paying you well.
Yeah dude it's starting to get real old. Ads every 3 minutes on average.
I would t mind if they used the new textures and skins but in classic. Essentially an HD remake. But the best part of classic for me is just the exploring and leveling
I agree on this newer character models and update just a few features, but keep the gameplay the same
Exactly, don't know why I don't see that topic in any video or discussion. Keep the gameplay but for the love of God, please update at least the character models, I don't want to look like a potato forever, especially as a druid main, shapeshift forms look horrendous in classic.
I'm only fine with them doing an HD remake so long as they do it for everything, otherwise it would look very out of place with the textures that didn't get remade. I absolute loathe the fact that the male incubus model from retail was added to classic, as it is higher polygon than literally the entire world around it. Adding WoD character models but not updating the look of the environment or armor would look so jarring and out of place, idk why people don't understand this.
@@krizaxe1 as long as it looks nothing like retail
13:11When I ask for balanced classes I don't mean homogeneous classes. There's a difference there. I believe the classic classes could be tweaked to be more balanced without destroying the charm.
it's wild to think how crazy different vanilla would have been if just a few mana changes with classes had been made in the original game. Take enhance, their dmg isn't bad, they just go oom in like 30 seconds.
“Warriors being miles ahead of everyone in the main area of the game isn’t that bad” - Warrior main. “These other classes can only utilize one spec, and even then it’s not always good. That’s just ‘balance.’” I get the charm, and now level boosts are bad. But being older with actual family obligations and stuff, I can’t no-life it anymore, and a lot of other folks can’t either. Some of that stuff isn’t just for convenience; it’s so we can play the game. It would be nice to be able to end-game tank as a pally or do ele dps as a shaman without a failed spec being called “charm.”
I'm so glad you mentioned osrs. I'm curious if you think a wow+ should have a similar economy. Osrs has lots of horizontal progression that can all add up to maybe a a 20-50% increase in damage done and often this costs you a ton of liquidity because the items never bind but are very rare. Most bosses drop mats much more often than any item but those items are immensely valuable. This allows users to always have something to work for. A full set of bis everything for every situation would cost something close to 10billion gp and very good money makers are around 5mill an hour. The mats the bosses drop can be useful though so that is also a knob to be turned. Even items that have next to no GE can have high HA LA so boss drops can be tuned in many ways. Bosses that do not profit money from the mats always have insanely valuable item drops because the economy is forced to respect your time. All this ends up meaning that farming something over and over again that has a medium skill floor and a high skill ceiling gives you a sense of pride as you do better. There's even some bosses that have a "perfect kill" and you receive double the mats. I feel like this solves problems many people have with mmos where in order to do something it either needs to be recognized as hard to do by the community and have a way of identifying that you've achieved it or give you gear you will throw away 6 months later. In this system however there is always something to go after and incentive to do better. The harder content the more value of the drops because others are gatekeeped by skill and the economy will always reward that long-term. Killing bosses other can't, killing bosses faster, and spending less money are all ways to improve as you work towards making money and getting rare cosmetics/ companions.
I think some rebalance is in order to actually have a Classic+ experience. I don't mean taking away a class identity or making every class able to AOE farm, tank, heal, DPS, solo dungeons or whatever. You can't have the current meta stand forever in something like Classic+, it would burn people out.
100% , Classic+ without rebalancing of classes would be a huge fail
Agree make some of the other specs viable.
Ya rage is too good
You're literally describing turtle wow lol
@@rypere1788 turtle devs are scam artists
Nobody cares about lame private servers
@@cothromgrimr161 ive seen this mentioned alot but nobody explains. Wdym by this? Its free to play
@@unbenanntunbekannt they sell lvl 60 accounts, gold, etc. things they don’t advertise, and destroys the integrity of the game.
Here is how I define the spirit of vanilla:
-content and systems that heavily incentivizes player interactions over solo play and automation
-the world matters, is vast, varied and everything in it, including the players feels part of a whole
-items and experience gained are earned through effort and self-investment
That's it. That's what the spirit of vanilla is i think. Very short definition, profound consequences on game design.
Bro , your videos are amazing and always making my day! love you. keep up the good work!
Bro your chess analogy is the kind of stuff that keeps me coming back to your channel. I've been saying it for years, and now I have this video to show ppl instead. Thanks my dude.
Classic Plus is literally what Turtle WoW private server did :'D
they historically have scammed players and sold lvl 60 accounts. its pay to win
@@cothromgrimr161 can you buy a lvl 60 account now?
@ if you message the owners I bet you can strike a deal
@@cothromgrimr161more blatant lies lol, blizzard HR employee 4 sure
@@cothromgrimr161 people can't change in your worldview ? Its been more then 8 years ago and you still hold them accountable for that.
I'm a Vanilla fan. I've never made it past TBC in WoW because of how it changes the game. I'm definitely a Season of Discovery fan even if it's not perfect for some of the reasons you cited. But there's many really great ideas in SoD that need to be recognized. I think the rune system is great and interactive. The level caps making a temporary endgame for everyone at the same time was interesting. A bigger emphasis on crafting professions. Better reputation rewards such as boots that allow you to walk on water. A quest chain that almost spans the entire leveling process. These are all things (and more) that should make it into Vanilla +.
The main reason I love Vanilla is because players have to play with each other, and because the world is vast, interesting and connected. SoD kept all that.
You say anyone that had a decent enough computer could play, but my memory says it could run on the worst PCs. I remember trying to get my friend into playing WoW in 2006 but his family PC was from like 1998 and he told me multiple times the graphics looked way to intense to run. He finally tried out the free version to level 20 and was able to play every single class. (His family said no to subscribing as they didn't have a lot of money so he would just level a class to 20, then reroll.) But it ran fine on his busted 90s pc with graphics at minimum. That was the thing about WoW that got me into it. It looked so good back then and looked like it required an expensive PC but it actually could mostly run on any PC. Not sure about BGs or raids though as my first playthrough took me about 6 months to hit 60 and I only made it to level 55 before TBC dropped.
Flashbacks to me being stuck in major cities when too many people were around because the PC just couldn't handle it
lol this is not true friend.
I avoided all the major cities like the plague lol.
If I flew into IF, I would likely fall in the big trench because lag would start as the griffin entered the front gate…. And when I say lag, I mean the screen is frozen and I can move but 3 minutes later it would show me being at the flight master, and then if I tried to move it would freeze again and I would end up somewhere I couldn’t actually see (usually looking into the side of a building xD)
Which would mean me trying to log on at like 2 in the morning to avoid people just to hearthstone away xD
Raids weren’t even an option… lol
@ I do kinda remember having to stare at the ground zoomed in so I could walk around cities smoothly but I’m not sure if that’s a real memory or not lol.
That’s what “decent enough” means. I means it meets requirements.
Personally I would love to see a slightly reimagined game world for a Classic + as it would surely help shape the experience. A big limitation to the game world is it's terrain and design, namely the heavy use of clustered hill/mountain terrain. Seeing the world fleshed out with larger biomes and adjustments to travel systems would be such a fresh breath of air. Imagine iconic zones like Duskwood being much more expansive with farms, and an engaging questline that shows development to the zones. Imagine being able to see the fruit of your labor that turns Darkshire into a bleak town on a edge of collapse to a slightly less cursed and improving town. At least have content and unlocks behind these advancements, similar to OSRS as to how quests can hold large improvements as subsequential rewards. This could also give space for skill improvements to give a healthier identity to the labor and the zones in which you'll spend this time in. Azeroth is an amazing world that deserves to be reinterpreted with a loving dev team that can bring the series into a new healthy growing direction. Sadly Blizz does not seem to be that daring.
"Blizzard-Chess" made me laugh so hard hahaha
You already have classic plus. It's called SOD. The forums were raving about classic plus last year and SOD was Blizzard's answer.
Your take on class balance is terrible and entirely devoid of logic. Classes didn't have these weaknesses because it was intentional, Blizzard just designed them terribly. Tell me that Ret & Prot Paladins were intended to be bad at what they should be doing, what the hell is the logic behind that? There is none, the devs simply weren't aware of these issues, a habit which carried on to future expansions too.
A class having weaknesses that offset its strengths and create a unique playstyle benefit the game, but if said class is simply weak it just ends up being useless that nobody wants to play. You are just glazing Blizzard here and try to paint them in a way which makes it seem they were doing everything right :D
please never stop with the "told you so" jokes lmao. preach brother
We will never get over the Wow Vanilla as we will never get over our first crush or well...our childhood and how great it was.
Can recommend Epoch WoW. a vanilla+ server that will release early 2025. It looks to be very good. The raids have been remade to be harder and ts 25 man. Besides that, it's new zones and new quests and dungeons!
Guys... im gonna be honest.
I think it's time to admit you all have a serious nostalgia problem.
Im not trying to shame anyone, im really not, but it's not healthy nor natural wanting to go back so much this hard.
They already gave you something more than once but is just not enough for some of you.
I know midlife crisis hits like a truck, but at some point you gotta let go man.
I got my fix from a private server, you know, back when you could see the same player more than once before sharding and realm sharing and all that, everyone who moves feels like a real person and not a bot like on official servers. But at this point we need new mmos made by passionate people. Blizzard has been desfigured beyond any recognition to be salvagable.
@@necrisro There is it, those words "Back when".
You can't say is not nostalgia. You miss a time that's long gone, want a design that simply is not the norm anymore.
We have new MMOs all the time. They all fail because it's not the 00s anymore and i'll never be. And you know who has the most succesful one? That's right, Blizzard.
The current WoW team is full of passionate people, and that's not hard to see. Thing is, those people, those devs, are younger than the people who demand this "Classic+"
Demonifying Blizzard won't change the fact that, as time goes by, your demographic is just not the main target anymore.
If that's your main issue then im sorry but Blizzard is not your enemy, is time itself.
@@necrisro nah, all good games have been made already. What we need is old hardware. Gaming died the day that the word "Gamer" has become common vocabulary. And that's ok.
People can enjoy playing old videogames, get over it
@20:30 man, no one tell him about TurtleWoW
He knows
In the science of aesthetics community they tend to say that small asymmetries in the face aren't a flaw, in fact they add uniqueness and attractiveness to a face. I think that also applies to games like WoW Classic or DS 1, their imperfections aren't a flaw, but an extra that makes them unique and even more fun.
the majority of the background music was not lost on me good sir!!! Loved it.
We are currently getting more than just Naxx. There is still no word on what will happen after. They said they want to keep the SoD around for guilds to get multiple Atieshs. I’m excited to see what is in store for SoD. I understand your view on classic. They did advertise it though as an experimental server. Though I feel they still haven’t done more. Until I saw what we are seeing now for phase 7. We are getting the Crypts and the Crystal Vale raid. Not sure what it is but the loading screen looks interesting.
Vanilla was before MySpace 😢
I never thought about it being the first real social media
RIP MySpace
Always wanted to see or even make a video like this. Thank you Madseason
Where Blizzard went wrong was the constant level cap increases and addition of micromanagy features that they thought would be cool but become irrelevant in the next expansion like garrisons, covenants, MAYBE battle pets. Things Blizzard should've focused and stuck to: classes, raids, pvp, story-telling.
Watching this video and thinking how amazing a real Classic+ would be.
I think the reason we can’t revisit that part of gameplay is the information from the internet . Nothing is a mystery, nothing stays hidden , nothing’s there to explore . Back then it didn’t matter for your group if your rings weren’t enchanted(not that much at least, ykwim) . It mattered that you are there with the boyz to do the karazhan raid and THATS what you did. If you didn’t do so well, you’ll still be invited in the next raid , because that’s what playin with the boyz is about. Now there’s a gatekeeping that the community has created themselves. And also THE main reason is … age ! Yeah , most of us are 30+ and 40. We can’t say every week we’ll be on at THAT time . IRL caught up. I’m glad I lived in that era of gaming . Now I only play games that I can close when I want to and not be part of some1’s schedule or timezone .
Somehow, I find it totally wholesome that you included a clip of the Cramling ladies and Gotham for the chess section.
5:15 as a new player myself I've now played for about a week I spent 2 days on retail hit 50 had no idea what 90% of my skills did and didn't get why we were doing dungeons or quests because my friends already knew the story around them and I was just kinda there. So I swapped to classic anniversary for the experience of playing the game from the start IDK if other people resonate with this as well but you sir have hit the nail right on the head new players feel lost, confused and completely overwhelmed by retail and the game in its current state
Just downloaded and giving twow a try as I keep reading about it. So far I’m impressed.
This is why I have been enjoying EQ1 on classic emulated server. People rely on each other. You need a druid or wizard to teleport you, a cleric or paladin to rez you, a necro to summon your body.
as a long time player of both games, you hit the nail on the head
the one thing i want to minorly disagree with about OSRS leagues is pointing out the main game cosmetic rewards: they aren’t a motivator at all, i don’t think anyone cares. the magic of them is that they are just FUN. fresh start with accelerated progress and stupidly overpowered builds for a short period of time, with a fresh theme and style every year.
plus your character makes PERMANENT choices at intervals of progress that drastically alter the game from even other players in the forms of relics. so different strengths and weaknesses of each come out over time. niche uses, cliques around your “relic” choice.
they strike the perfect balance of making you stupidly overpowered quickly but with limitations in which ways you’re overpowered and which regions you even have access to. meaning people will make multiple characters to try out different paths, and it’s always fun.
Chess actually HAS been "patched" and "rebalanced" over the years. For example, the ability of pawns to move 2 spaces from their home square wasn't in the game initially, and was introduced to speed games up. En Passant was then introduced to close a loophole where a pawn could "skip" past its opposing pawn as a result. The rules on promoting pieces have also changed a lot over the years, even into the past few decades where it was finally codified that you couldn't promote to a piece of the opposite color.
That queen description is just about the most accurate thing ive ever heard
As someone who missed out in 2019 I really hope the community hasn't given up on the game and that Blizzard comes around
A big part of what works for OSRS is that the loot power tiers have not really increased since like 2005. They just have alternate options, I don't think WoW can function in that way they always have to have a new tier come out that is better than the current or there isn't much point unless they completely rework the game.
I still think we need hard raids... not because only sweats should clear it, just so that playerbase has something to really look up to and it'd be pretty gear reliant so a slow grind ( more resistance checks , bigger hp pools, slightly harder attacking bosses, nothing major overal but definitely 2-3x bigger HP pools will just make it a race or healer check and such)
Also to show off. Exclusivity is important to maintain the value of the content.
It makes me happy that someone else sees it the way I do. I'm #NOCHANGES I just want more of it. "More vanilla, in the spirit of vanilla" is exactly what we want. The classic experience was never even close to being finished. All they have to do to hook me in for the next 2-3 years is keep releasing the stuff they already had planned. It's crazy that they haven't done it yet....
SOD is literally classic plus.
If that wasn't what people wanted nothing Blizz will ever do will be good enough.
They aren't capable of making a "pure" classic plus, it'll never happen.
The ballance in chess is that both sides start with all the pieces...
- classic balance
- more hability
- more rpg aspects only class
- more leveling zones, end-game zones, leveling dungeon and etc