I like how you approach a problem, do proper experiments, and show us not only the results but also all the data. Much better than speculation or hearsay which seems to be rampant among car enthusiasts.
Here in Finland most people drive studded winter tyres during the months that there's snow and have regular tyres to put on in the spring. Very few drivers use all-season tyres for the whole year. It's pretty clear to people here in northern Europe that winter months require a very specific sort of tyres to handle safely...
markotark All season tires in Scandinavia are a death trap lol. Studded tires are defo a pluss, but I have been seeing alot of tires without them lately.
"In many states in the US studded tires are illegal." While the studded tyres are basically the safest option to use in the Nordic winter, there are several downsides to them. The studs come of the tyres and can damage windshields, just like the sand that is put on some roads during winter-time. Also the wear that the studded tyres cause to the roads and the amount of dust that is added to the air can be quite expensive for both road-maintenance and problems for peoples health. These issues aren't as clear as the way that studded tyres decrease both the rate of accidents as well as how severe they are when they occur, so we continue to use them...
markotark Nah man. The only down-side to them is the excessive wear, and how risky it is for your money to drive around with them on asphalt before you are allowed to swap them. Although, in a heavily populated city, fine dust might be an issue, but clearly not one I've heard of :p
Nick I used to run winters in summer. Wear was about average, 40-50k out of each set. All seasons and summers are rated for the same. Grip was actually much better than most tires, especially in gravel and rain. Corners, no more squealing than normal.
FCFordLord hard to believe wear was normal considering that softer tires heat up faster causing faster wear. Not saying you're wrong just saying what I would think would happen.
I have also run winter tires for one summer. The wear was far less than I had expected, but the tires felt soft in the corners (sorry, I don't know how to describe it better) and the grip on dry tarmac on a warm day was considerably worse than the grip with normal summer tires.
Hey Jason, I hope you read this. Have you considered testing winter tyres in the heat of summer (something like 35°C and above)? Some manufacturers warn that the tyres might start to marble at temperatures above 30°C, under heavy braking (causing little rubber pellets to form beneath the tyre, making the wheel roll on top of them, significantly reducing grip). I've been trying to find examples of that happening on the internet, but I wasn't able to find any convincing data to support it. It would make for a very interesting video topic, I believe.
even though winters up here in Alaska can be longer then summer i have separate winter and summer tires on separate wheels for all my cars, well worth the investment unfortunately i see many people still driving with winter tires, studded or sipped in summer , some drivers are either just too lazy or cheap to change over in summer and usually have to end up getting new tires or driving on crappy wheels by winter in glad the police fine people for running studs in summer
If you still have that thermal camera I think it would be interesting to see the difference in operating temperature between the winter tires and the all seasons under normal driving conditions. Also curious as to how the winter tires would behave in heavy rain. All those sipes (probably spelled wrong) would have to allow that water to absorb some of that heat
You should send your video to the Government of Quebec! Since they put a law that requires winter tires from December 15 to April 15 some people decided to run on winter tires all year long. So they end up running on almost flat tires the next winter!
At least here in Canada, they sell "all-weather" tires. They're basically all-season tires that pass the standards for a winter tire, with a slightly lower lifespan as a tradeoff. They're not good for going out in the country but they're great for winter driving in cities like Toronto or Montreal. The two that I know of are the Hankook Optimo 4S and the Nokian WRG3
Diego Santesteban We had the Nokians for about 8 months before our car was totaled in an accident, so I can't comment on durability but the grip in snow and ice was outstanding. Very expensive, though.
I have the Hankooks. They were a cheaper option with a lower speed rating (*only* 210 kph). So far they've made it through 30,000 km with no problem, and they're supposedly good for 60K or 65K.
I enjoy your videos. You don't make ridiculous assumptions or draw conclusions without the data to back them up. You also explain your methods and possible concerns people might have. As an adult who is going back to school (finals this week!! AHHH!!) to study engineering, your videos are always refreshing and not full of facepalm material like so many other TH-camrs who claim to be sciencing all the things. Thanks, and keep them coming. :)
Thank you, I appreciate the comment! I worked as a test engineer before quitting and pursuing TH-cam full time. It can easily go unappreciated the amount of time that goes into planning and performing a test with as few changing variables as possible, but it's worth it to have conclusions that I feel confident in. Glad you enjoy the videos!
You're never going to have non carbon based lubricant. Name one lubricant that doesn't have carbon. Carbon itself is one of the best lubricating components in liquid and dry form.
Silicone grease is non-carbon based. It is a siloxane (alternating Si-O backbone) polymer thickened with silica (SiO2); no carbon required. Silicone oil (without silica thickener) is commonly used on condoms because it doesn't destroy latex like many carbon-based oils do. Silicon is the most similar element to carbon, so it makes sense that they would have similar lubricous properties. Most silicone oils contain organic side groups (usually methyl), because they're cheap and safe, but the C side chains could theoretically be replaced with something less safe (possibly F like in teflon).
While that is great information Ponchy, why would we use silicon based lubricants where oil or carbon based oils do the better job? Sticking silicon in your caliper slides is pretty different than expecting it to hold up in a race bearing or an engine. If the goal is to reduce the use of carbon...this is a misguided attempt to help the earth. Silicon sprays have more warnings for toxicity than all my oil based sprays. They give you a headache easier too, not that that is an accurate way of measuring toxicity.
I ran old snow tires at an autocross once by the end of the runs i was sliding all over couldnt hardly keep it from spinning out. I got the showmanship award but they yelled at me for drifting too much lol It was hot that day too
I have a 2009 Land Rover and run winters all year long because optimum summer performance is not a huge priority for my rainy day car. I find that even really worn winter tires grip better in the snow than brand new all seasons. Winters are my all seasons now.
Rally races are run with tires that only last the course of the race which leads me to believe winter compound tires would be super grippy in summer but would also deteriorate a lot faster
Another item is that the winter tires have less tread meeting the road - but instead has lots of places for the snow to go and provides that grip on snow. And of course Studs extend stopping (and acceleration) on dry surfaces, kind of like wearing metal cleats on a linoleum floor. I used to run studs all the time, however there isn't enough snow/ice all year around anymore and was noticing how much the wheels spin. My "new" car has all the fancy ABS/ESP features and now I have "studless" tires and haven't looked back. Plus - the winter tire tread wears very fast when it gets warm out..and cornering is squishyier. And it works the other way too.... Years ago I waited too late to swap and tried getting to work on a cold snowy morning. My 3-season summer tires were so hard that I lost control at low speed and hit a curb. I also feel that Directional snow tires make a huge difference when it comes to cornering - having owned both over the years on the same car - I recommend paying the premium.
Another thing when comparing winter tires vs. summer/all-season tires is sidewall rigidity. Winter tires have less rigid sidewalls, and if you use them on a high-gripping surface, ie. asphalt in the summer, the tire will behave quite badly when you're cornering or doing other sudden movements. The sidewall will kind of "bend" quite a bit and you'll lose a lot of grip. This could be tested on a skid pad, trying out for the max v that the tires can handle before you start losing grip.
As someone who had a complaint about the last tire test, this I feel is a great and very informative comparison. I didn't take that close of a look at the tread patterns, but I wonder if one of the other reasons the all-seasons do better is because of greater surface area. Snow tires are designed to allow snow to pack in (one of the best way to get grip on snow is to use snow) so I figure that would inherently lower surface area.
You can run winter tires year-round your MPG will reduce with winter tires. Sumoto Ice edge are very good on traction all year. The grip of the winter tire holds traction and does not lose traction in the summer. My car stops shorter in distance with the Sumoto Ice Edge in the summer than the Good year Eagles in the summer.
back when I had a cheap econo car, I needed to get tires but couldn't afford good ones. so I went to my local used tire place and got 4 practically new winter tires for $120 installed. wierd part is, how did the shop end up with these tires in South Florida? the tires were loud and did well in the summer rain.
Winter tires being bad in the summer is common knowledge nowadays, I've heard theories of the material gelling over under high heat braking. However I'd like to see a test using 3/5/7/10 year old winter tires, because people are being told by "tire experts" to basically throw away their winter tires after 3-5 years as the compound has hardened up and are basically useless as winter tires. However seeing as how people only use them for a few months of the year, they could very well still have 90% of their tread left by that point. So by listening to them, you would need to buy a new set of winter tires that often to appease them, because according to those same experts you can't use them in summer either. However, taking into account the natural drying and hardening they've gone through year after year sitting in storage in the off-season, I'd be curious to find out how their performance is affected, in summer, at let's say 10 years old - which is my current case, driving a car in winter, fall, spring and yes summer, with hardened up 10 year old winter tires with 90% of their tread left, unwilling to throw seemingly "perfectly good tires" in the trash.
Not many outside the US even understand imperial because all we use is metric. It would be great if you could use metric or imperial + metric because it really helps a lot to not go check every time how much it actually is.
Miko I do agree with you, however as for now (as a first year) its extremely difficult to estimate if the number you just calculated is reasonable as ive never used these units before.. however I keep practicing, cause it is very useful to be able to understand both!
lol freedom units i love it !!!But yeah even in my engineering courses we use both. Starting to transition more to metric but for people like us who grew up on "freedom" unit, Its hard to really visualize a measurement in metric.
I just ran winter tires for whole summer and no problems with stopping. They are a bit nosier but that's about it. Not much thread lost. Now, when it is raining, it is good to be a bit extra careful, but still it is stable.
Norway here. We all use Summer tires during the summer and proper winter tires during winter. Nokian Hakkapelita are a favorite among many northern folks.
When on dry road surface, I've noticed a threshold when breaking hard with winter tires where there is a sudden loss of traction/grip. This abrupt threshold isn't so apparent with my summer tires (even in the winter when they are rock hard). My theory for this is that under this threshold (normal conditions), the soft compound with sipes will deform slightly and keep a broad contact patch on the flat portion of tread between the sipes. When at this threshold and above (supra normal conditions, i.e. hard accel/decel), the tread deforms so far that the siping causes extra ridges to form creating a "rougher" surface. This is after all what the sipes are there to do, create ridges for more snow to get caught in/push against and provide better water evacuation. This is good on snow which conforms to the rough tread shape. However when on pavement, with these edges protruding farther than the flat contact patches between the sipes, this raises the flat contact patch and causes the tire to ride on the skinny edges. This decreases the total surface area in contact with the road surface. Less contact between rubber and road means less grip, which means more slippage. I bet that if you took the same compound that my winter tires are made of (michelin x-ice xi3's), and took away the sipes, then they would stop in a shorter distance on dry pavement than the original (siped) version. And quite possibly better than my summer tires if tread pattern was the same and only the compound was different. Though this compound would have pretty poor tread life during the summer.
Shame pirelli cant make a proper compounds. Super softs lasting the entire race. They should get them to last in the following manner Ultra Soft: 12% of 200km(race distance) Super Soft: 24% of 200km(race distance) Soft: 36% of 200km(race distance) Medium:48% of 200km(race distance) Hard: 60% of 200km(race distance)
Well that is all extremely dependent on timing and regulations with them, they need to precisely portion out their tire use against time gain and time lost on changes. It is in no way a one solution pony.
Finnish engineers have a lock on cold weather compound formulation. I would recommend that you do the same testing on Hakkapeliitta manufactured tires.
Interesting results. Another thing to think about may be the tread pattern. The all-season tires probably have a bit more rubber in contact with the road than the winter tyres. I wonder if you'd have similar differences in performance on wet roads or not.
We live a few hours south near Sun Valley. We run winter tires all year. 6 years now and no issues lol. Cheaper and less hassle. We will be moving to Oregon in a year or so. So glad to not have to run winter tires any more!
I live in Michigan, on my 06 Crown Vic Interceptor I run General Altimax Arctics in winter and General Gmax AS03 in summer, both the same size. The difference is amazing. The winters are very surefooted in snow and slush but are very squirmy when pushed just a little. When I change wheels from winter to summer it feels like a different car, handles MUCH better and feels much more surefooted on the highway especially at speeds over 70.
I run winters all year not a problem , not too concerned about the loss of grip in the heat but I guess I would be if I couldnt stop in time and hit a tree LOL
Some years I drove about 5k miles a year and kept the winters on. They were noisy, I kept my speed down driving the highways, but were great handling wet. I had them on a small awd suv. When my wheels needed aligned they wore out incredibly fast in a couple months fast. On my turbo awd suv I change seasonally between all weather and winter for best handling.🌦❄️🌬
I've heard that winter tyres are a lot more prone to aqua-planing than summer tyres. I have also experienced aqua-planing with winter tyres in conditions where I think the summer tyres would have done better. You can also tell by the threading on summer tyres that they are designed to eject water away through the curved canals, while winter tyres don't have threading designed especially for water dispersion.
The province of Quebec (in Canada) actually mandates the use of winter tires from mid-November to mid-April every year. All-season tires just aren't good enough when you have more than ~2 days a year with meaningful snowfall. Beyond that, you can actually be pulled over and have your tires inspected for wear and tread depth in the winter; so even if you have winter tires and run them all year round, your tread may not pass the test and you'll still get ticketed.
Yes I totally agree. My 2015 WRX handles and grips wonderfully with winter tires at cold temps but those same tires are really squishy at anything over 50 deg F.
The siping is key with braking tests, the block movement resulting in few clean surfaces on the road are a huge limiting factor. If you'd tested lateral grip you'd have found the results closer which highlights compound is less of an issue (until overheated) If you fancy talking tyres more, I'll make sure I'm visiting Carthrottle next time you're in the UK!
it is not a big deal but on mobile your end card overlays your correcting annotation information on the error you made on naming tyre you made a point about. This was also something I wondered. Thanks for investigating.
MavHunter20XX In the 70's (I was there) the scientists were wringing their hands about the 'Coming Ice Age'. Then in the 80's it was 'Nuclear Winter' because the left just KNEW that Reagan, the EVIL extremist, was going to Nuke the Russians. Then in the 90's it was 'Global Warming', Al Gore assured us that New York City would be under water by now. Now 'Climate Change' is the buzz words that get government grants. It's all B.S. and political agendas. Follow the money; the money trail never lies, science does.
Nice video - just a couple of comments: - With Tread patterns, my understanding is that for winter tyres the tread pattern is designed to allow the rubber to move more, and generate heat in the tread to generate the grip. This is what makes them perform worse when it's warm as the tread overheats. One thing I think you should consider is going to a skid pan, and getting a tap from the steering column sensor and a lateral accelerometer, and seeing the difference between applying a steering force and the time taken for the car to turn (applied lateral acceleration) - I expect there will be a significant delay on the winter tyres to the summer tyres. - Regarding control of the variables, the one variable that I think was not controlled was brake line pressure. I understand that you mentioned the ABS was cutting in and that the tyre is the limiting factor, however this is only effective down to ~15 mph when the wheel speed sensors become less effective. I think a more thorough controlled test would be to conduct the test at a range of brake line pressures, and measure the stopping distance at each brake line pressure (bit more difficult to do in terms of tooling up the car, but not impossible)
+BlythyVXR87 based on my speed vs time graph, ABS becomes less effective at 2 mph on the Crosstrek, so it's actually super consistent testing. Perhaps I'll show this in a future video for folks to see. At 2 mph, the distance traveled is less than a foot for braking distance, so not really an impact on final results. But definitely something worth discussing!
Hi! Could you do a video explaining how the old Porsche 911 air-cooled engines worked, how the newer water-cooled engines work and the pros and cons of each??
WGRs are likely the oddball exclusion. Basically winter tire tread and bite, but made of a harder compound so it's allowable as an all-season. It's also one of the few all-seasons that don't suck in winter. Trade off is a bit more road noise, but doesn't seem all that terrible other than that.
If i may add some input: the road surface in the winter is soft and therefore i think the movement of the tyre treads helps to have a larger contact surface since it moves and shifts with the road surface (snow, whatever). On summer tyres in the snow, the tyre is rigid and therefore when the snow shifts under the wheels it will have more slip. In the summer winter tyres will try to shift with the road but the road being rigid will result in more slip - so in conclusion i think rigid road surface will get best randament with a rigid tyre and soft road surface will get it with soft tyres (i may be terribly wrong here :P ). I think there is a phenomenon there that would be cool if someone would do something like a wheel high speed camera (300-400 FPS) during this test. Also it would be cool if you do this test in warm rainy conditions - i think that the winter tyres will fail terribly there - then again maybe the rigidity of the summer tyres may result in more slip - if you find the time and resources i'd love that video. Trial and error :). Anyway, cool video! Also sorry for my awful english (or engrish) :P P.S. i'd also love to see "time wear" on any type of tyres; like brand new summer tyres vs 10 year old practically new summer tyres of the same model and make. THANK YOU FOR YOUR AWESOME VIDEOS!!!
I think that the following things occur when you use winter tyres in the summer - After exposure to high summer temperatures the compound of the winter tyres actually cooks itself and it becomes very hard so you have less grip and even if you consider re-using the tyres in the winter they won't have the same grip, because they are already "cooked".
Winter tires show good performance on wet and snowy weather. On dry asphalt performances are similar in those close to freezing temperatures. Try it on -20 or -30 celsious and you will see how different they are.
I worked at Ford up here in Calgary and it's a great idea to get a dedicated set of winter tires. You only have to program the TPMS once. There is often a winter tire sale just before 1st snowfall to encourage people to come in early to install winter tires. Every winter, people seem to forget to change tires until the first snowfall, and then there are 800 people pleading for service! Then when the all-season tires wear out, that came with the car when new, you can get a dedicated summer tire and voila! You have the best of both worlds!
Andrew Wood Yeah I have a cheap set of steel rims for my winter tires. An hour to change tires in my driveway in the fall/spring is more convenient and saves ~$40 every time. I don't have TPMS to worry about, I just keep a gauge in the glovebox
Wait - that was a legit question? i thought that is a joke. in most of middle europe this is just normal - you get a set of summer and a set of winter tires. Changing them is really easy and fast and only the elderly and some really .. picky... people go to a shop for that.
when i import my 555 sti, i ran the snow tires that the car came with. 0 grip, quite scary when it was raining as well. the good thing is that i knew how to keep control of my car when sliding and understeering
here in germany i often see people with shiny new performance tires on big alloys in the summer...and then the cheapest narrowest winter tires they could find for the winter (presumably because all the money got spend on the bling bling stuff ;) ) - would be interesting to see a new, performance sommer tire against a cheap old, worn down winter tire - in wet and snowy conditions.
I ride a motorcycle with knobbies, and you can feel how each knob flexes a little when turning hard, allowing the tyre to effectively slip a little. This probably happens with winter tyres as well, as you describe
What wears winter tires more: Higher temps? or dry roads? I'm guessing that colder temps protect the softer tires because they are harder in winter = less wear. I also think that snow on roads causes less wear than dry roads. What Im wondering is if dry roads in winter are much of a concern for wear of snow tires? or is temperature the main concern?
I have had some bad experiences with winter tyres but it was more in the wet. I respect your numbers but without numbers and not having the car with all seasons yet to compare and know what I was missing I was not phased by the dry performance. I did have a few near misses on just a wet road corner and another time in heavy rain that had enough water that hydroplaning may have been possible except I was accelerating and it felt like all 4 wheels were turning as I overtook a slow moving vehicle in my Forester. I attribute the symmetrical awd to keeping the car very neutral through it all. After those experiences I was fearful that if I encountered an unexpected wet patch on a corner in the midst of otherwise dry road it could spell trouble. The reason I am watching is because of an accident where a vehicle with all winter tyres travelling at a moderate speed in heavy rain could not stop when the vehicle in front stopped suddenly. The driver reported being on the brakes hard and hearing and feeling all the abs working but the vehicle just would not stop. A test of the wet braking and cornering of winter tyres in summer time would be very interesting I suspect. Please do not do it on public roads however so we can keep getting your videos :-)
I was always told not to use winter tires in warmer weather bc of excessive wear. I guess the compound is ideal for colder weather. It likely hardens to a point where it provides great grip but doesnt wear away.
I have an older Accord and delayed buying new summer tires so running Michelin X ice until fall and will just buy new ones then--if I keep the car. Basically, verifies your test. Driving in a spirited manner causes the tires to feel greasy, not good grip. Stopping distances are DEFINATELY longer as the days get warmer. This is the same greasy condition my Z06 used to get driving with street tires on the track once they got overheated--which is why the car is now on Hoosier slicks.
Dude, don't let them mount your tiers to the Yellow alignment dot... The RED is supposed to be lined up with the valve stem. I made them take my tires off and do it again, I think you are to nice to your shop. Been watching your for a while. Thank you for what you do!
I associate softer compound with more, not less, grip -- like when you compare pilot super sports to all seasons. I was expecting winter tires to have terrible tread life, but not materially worse grip.
How a tyre acts on the road really depends on how old it is + the quality it self ! also have in mind humidity road surface and vehicle weight these are all factors that will effect braking and accelarating. for me i would change my tyres every 4 years depending on what i have done with my car ! now if you drive slowly in city conditions and you go maximum 100 km/h rarely sure you can run even 6 years with summer tyres but i would not reccomend that when a tyre ages no matter the thread the material it self loses its qualities and it becomes either junk or you can use them for burners ! winter tyres are really important also i would change them every 3 years if i drove around 50km everyday ! i mean come on don't you buy new shoes every now and then same goes with the car all seasons are great for taxi drivers or people who just have small little cars they use only in city conditions
You will mostly find the performance of a tire degrade greatly from age when using poor quality tires. Remember, tire manufacturers make various quality tires. Buy cheap, get cheap. But sometimes you can come across a good tire inexpensively. I drove a Porsche 928 on Fuzion ZRi's for six years, terrific tires, good in the rain, and inexpensive to boot. Today, they market them as Firestones with a different name. Talk to others who own your type of vehicle. Learn what they like in tires. There's a forum for just about every vehicle made. Ask around and see what other people are using, and what they like. Top priced Michelin and Bridgestone tires are almost always going to be excellent, but their off branded tires can be excellent, too (Bridgestone makes both Fuzion and Firestone).
Jason I would agree with you on this but I would propose a follow-up question and experiment. What happens when the winter tire is nearly worn out? Having very little tread depth the tread blocks, I would think, wouldn't move and shift around as much when they get warm and thus I don't think it would have the adverse effect they do when new like you experienced. And if that's the case, would it actually improve grip? I moved from North Dakota to Phoenix, AZ in January and I have a pair of Nokian Hakka R2's on the rear (drive wheels) of my 2000 Lexus LS400. At least in accelerating I have to say I can't get the car to break loose on dry pavement even if I powerbrake the thing. However when I had all-season tires I could do donuts all day when the temperature was around 50-60 degrees. What do you think?
Coming from the motorbike world I know that you never go to a race track with street tires. The problem with street tires is that they heat up FAR quicker than race tires. At first this sounds good because hot tires means more traction, right? Yes, up to a certain point. And after that the tires just start to get far too hot and that's when they start to smear and lose traction. Race tires take a lot longer to get up to temperature but when you floor them on a race track, you'll get there eventually. And that's where race tires are at their best. Coming back to this topic, my guess is that it's probably the same with winter / summer tires. In theory winter tires should have more grip because they get hot more easily. But when you use them in higher temperatures they were not designed for, they'll get far too hot and also start to smear, just like street tires for motorbikes.
An all weather version of a US spec all season tire, such as Michelin CrossClimate, a summer spec tire that meets the winter spec may be a good compromise for those who need occasional better winter tire performance but don't reside on high mountain ice/snow covered roads.
Have wondered about using snow tires running the 1/4 mile in a 4x4 truck with traction issues. thanks! would love to see you do a video on micro siping. a nascar team was recently caught doing it. so something must be there.
Once we had a very warm winter where the temperature rarely went below 8C° and i noticed that my wintertires felt sort a like "chewinggum" in corners on february. Thing was, due to the warm remperatures the profile on the tires literally "offset" of the tire
How do you think how the results would be if you made the test in the wet condition?I belive the winter tires will be more efficient that the summer tires,mainly do to the winter tires profile.
At my dealer, I was told the rear diff (wrx) could get extra wear if I don't exchange tires when it warms. I change for safety in the winter and performance in the summer. In Cleveland it may snow or be 80 degrees through April so it is tough to decide when to swap.
Makes perfect sense. I wonder how "all weather" tires do against "all season" tires. The new "all weather" claim to be effective in all weather conditions. I have only seen one test ever done of this newer technology - all weather seem better than all-season on multiple conditions.
You should do a test on how tires change as they age. I have a pair of old Blizzaks which are about 8 years old and they have become so hard they are pretty well useless in the snow now (with minimal wear).
You should try on wet asphalt as well. I had winter tires that were great in snow and on ice, but complete failures on wet and dry asphalt. Nowadays I drive on winter tires that are ok in all aspects, not being 10/10 on anything, but no 2/10 either. I just changed to summer tires, and even then my decent winter tires doesn't come close in handling and braking distance to real summer tires.
winter tires are actually a great cheap alternative to drag radials due to a soft tread and a flexible sidewall. Maybe you should do a test to see how they act under acceleration.
Not only in the tread block, but some snows don't even have a reinforced sidewall (Q rated) or even speed rating. This results in sidewall torque, which is much like how a drag tire shifts when under load. Not only does a snow tire under perform in the summer in braking, but because of the typical higher speeds and higher temps in the summer, this means Un-even wear. This causes an uncomfortable ride, due to typical cupped tread (vibration) and decrease in tire longevity (tread depth). Wrong equipment for the element. Just like you wouldn't wear crampons in the sand.
That's because you shouldn't be driving in snow at high speeds, so winter (mud and snow rated) tires aren't designed for high speeds. Way too many people want ONE tire to be great at everything. Not going to happen. Race boys just want to go as fast as they can all the time. Normal people just want to get where they're going, and if it takes a little longer to get there in terrible weather, then so be it. I've driven snow tires in the summer, and summer performance tires in the snow. What it takes, is the patience to adapt the situation to the tires you have; that often means slowing down, adjusting tire pressure to adjust the contact patch, and of course, prepare to drive with less traction, so don't mash the throttle or brakes. Most people can't be bothered, and just want to continue to drive as fast as they possibly can.
Hey man I've been watching your vids for a long time. I do like the new format of videos you've done, but when are you going to bring back the white board? 😁
I'm suprised that you have the shop switch the tires on the same rim and not just have a completely different set of rims. Less chance of the bead getting messed up.
I make about 20 000 km/year and use summer and winter tires. The best option for long mileage and safety. Of course I use two set of wheels. Climate mediteran/mountain.
I had winter tires on one of my old cars. There was a warm spell for a few weeks but sense I was a poor high school grad I couldn't afford a second set of wheels with other tires not to mention a place to store them. I had huge wear on the tires and pieces of rubber flying off in just 50 degree weather. They still felt pretty good though.
I'm still on my winter tyres sadly. April was quite crazy and we still got snow. So there was no point of changing in April. But my PS4S will go on soon.
Great! been waiting for a honest analysis like this. I have a 2012 Range Rover Evoque that I take off-road frequently and would love to have the extra grip but I live in California a d worry about heat. Just not sure if the trade off is worth it. The car has a stopping distance of 113' which is great on All-season tires (Michelin) but wonder how much difference I'd have with soft rubber. But in 35000 miles I've never been in a lockup situation.
I run blizzard ws80 only tire I run where I live it snows like crazy I live quite away from work and work 5 days a week I get 70,000 miles out of them and they are at 2/32-3/32 thread life with no issues with them. I do drive in various road conditions all year anywhere from snow to mud to loose gravel I maintain the speed limit and the givin road conditions
I guess there's diminishing return to soft compound, at one point the become too soft and brake away like you said. Interesting. It also make sens, otherwise tire maker would use the same material for super sport tire as winter tire, which they don't.
I think that the best lesson for winter tire users would be just to teach them that winter tires don't mean 100% grip on ice in -20 degrees while going 140km/h
You should try winter tyres at summer in your s2k. If its even +5 celcius outside and I fully accelerate with my 220 hp RWD Benz, you can feel the rear end squirming and even the traction control warns me of slippery conditions with bone dry asphalt!
that's why you just run no tires. then save your winter tires for winter, smh
Yes. I enjoy the sparks. Much better than putting tires on.
NastyMcBurgers more spark = more horse power
marc 🔥 🔋too.
Genius, smaller wheel diameter, more power to the ground.
Now we just need the government to pay for the roads to be the rubber...unpaved roads, you'd go no where, LOL.
I like how you approach a problem, do proper experiments, and show us not only the results but also all the data. Much better than speculation or hearsay which seems to be rampant among car enthusiasts.
Here in Finland most people drive studded winter tyres during the months that there's snow and have regular tyres to put on in the spring.
Very few drivers use all-season tyres for the whole year. It's pretty clear to people here in northern Europe that winter months require a very specific sort of tyres to handle safely...
markotark torille
markotark All season tires in Scandinavia are a death trap lol. Studded tires are defo a pluss, but I have been seeing alot of tires without them lately.
markotark In many states in the US studded tires are illegal.
"In many states in the US studded tires are illegal."
While the studded tyres are basically the safest option to use in the Nordic winter, there are several downsides to them.
The studs come of the tyres and can damage windshields, just like the sand that is put on some roads during winter-time.
Also the wear that the studded tyres cause to the roads and the amount of dust that is added to the air can be quite expensive for both road-maintenance and problems for peoples health. These issues aren't as clear as the way that studded tyres decrease both the rate of accidents as well as how severe they are when they occur, so we continue to use them...
markotark Nah man. The only down-side to them is the excessive wear, and how risky it is for your money to drive around with them on asphalt before you are allowed to swap them. Although, in a heavily populated city, fine dust might be an issue, but clearly not one I've heard of :p
If you like excessive wear, less grip and squealing tyres in corners by all means use winter tyres in the summer.
Nick I used to run winters in summer.
Wear was about average, 40-50k out of each set. All seasons and summers are rated for the same.
Grip was actually much better than most tires, especially in gravel and rain.
Corners, no more squealing than normal.
then the tires were not real winter tyres.
FCFordLord hard to believe wear was normal considering that softer tires heat up faster causing faster wear. Not saying you're wrong just saying what I would think would happen.
Dont forget that the studs give away a lot of noise :(
I have also run winter tires for one summer. The wear was far less than I had expected, but the tires felt soft in the corners (sorry, I don't know how to describe it better) and the grip on dry tarmac on a warm day was considerably worse than the grip with normal summer tires.
Tire Rack did the same on ice test years ago. Great to have a test on the oposite temperatures. Eye opening.
Thank you, love this channel.
In Canadian cities where it's cold and people do not have room for two sets of tires, people use winter tires all year round.
Hey Jason, I hope you read this.
Have you considered testing winter tyres in the heat of summer (something like 35°C and above)? Some manufacturers warn that the tyres might start to marble at temperatures above 30°C, under heavy braking (causing little rubber pellets to form beneath the tyre, making the wheel roll on top of them, significantly reducing grip). I've been trying to find examples of that happening on the internet, but I wasn't able to find any convincing data to support it.
It would make for a very interesting video topic, I believe.
even though winters up here in Alaska can be longer then summer i have separate winter and summer tires on separate wheels for all my cars, well worth the investment
unfortunately i see many people still driving with winter tires, studded or sipped in summer , some drivers are either just too lazy or cheap to change over in summer and usually have to end up getting new tires or driving on crappy wheels by winter
in glad the police fine people for running studs in summer
If you still have that thermal camera I think it would be interesting to see the difference in operating temperature between the winter tires and the all seasons under normal driving conditions. Also curious as to how the winter tires would behave in heavy rain. All those sipes (probably spelled wrong) would have to allow that water to absorb some of that heat
You should send your video to the Government of Quebec! Since they put a law that requires winter tires from December 15 to April 15 some people decided to run on winter tires all year long. So they end up running on almost flat tires the next winter!
It's illegal to drive worn tires too, at least here. 1.6 mm thread for summer tires and 3.0 mm for winter tires.
At least here in Canada, they sell "all-weather" tires. They're basically all-season tires that pass the standards for a winter tire, with a slightly lower lifespan as a tradeoff. They're not good for going out in the country but they're great for winter driving in cities like Toronto or Montreal.
The two that I know of are the Hankook Optimo 4S and the Nokian WRG3
Diego Santesteban We had the Nokians for about 8 months before our car was totaled in an accident, so I can't comment on durability but the grip in snow and ice was outstanding. Very expensive, though.
I have the Hankooks. They were a cheaper option with a lower speed rating (*only* 210 kph). So far they've made it through 30,000 km with no problem, and they're supposedly good for 60K or 65K.
All I am saying is that Montreal has one of the worst driving in the World and all year around lol
I enjoy your videos. You don't make ridiculous assumptions or draw conclusions without the data to back them up. You also explain your methods and possible concerns people might have. As an adult who is going back to school (finals this week!! AHHH!!) to study engineering, your videos are always refreshing and not full of facepalm material like so many other TH-camrs who claim to be sciencing all the things. Thanks, and keep them coming. :)
Thank you, I appreciate the comment! I worked as a test engineer before quitting and pursuing TH-cam full time. It can easily go unappreciated the amount of time that goes into planning and performing a test with as few changing variables as possible, but it's worth it to have conclusions that I feel confident in. Glad you enjoy the videos!
You're never going to have non carbon based lubricant. Name one lubricant that doesn't have carbon. Carbon itself is one of the best lubricating components in liquid and dry form.
You're very welcome. It's not unappreciated by all of us. :)
Silicone grease is non-carbon based. It is a siloxane (alternating Si-O backbone) polymer thickened with silica (SiO2); no carbon required. Silicone oil (without silica thickener) is commonly used on condoms because it doesn't destroy latex like many carbon-based oils do.
Silicon is the most similar element to carbon, so it makes sense that they would have similar lubricous properties. Most silicone oils contain organic side groups (usually methyl), because they're cheap and safe, but the C side chains could theoretically be replaced with something less safe (possibly F like in teflon).
While that is great information Ponchy, why would we use silicon based lubricants where oil or carbon based oils do the better job?
Sticking silicon in your caliper slides is pretty different than expecting it to hold up in a race bearing or an engine.
If the goal is to reduce the use of carbon...this is a misguided attempt to help the earth. Silicon sprays have more warnings for toxicity than all my oil based sprays. They give you a headache easier too, not that that is an accurate way of measuring toxicity.
I ran old snow tires at an autocross once by the end of the runs i was sliding all over couldnt hardly keep it from spinning out. I got the showmanship award but they yelled at me for drifting too much lol It was hot that day too
I have a 2009 Land Rover and run winters all year long because optimum summer performance is not a huge priority for my rainy day car. I find that even really worn winter tires grip better in the snow than brand new all seasons. Winters are my all seasons now.
At some point you should do a test where you could try this experiment at a higher temperature in july or something
Rally races are run with tires that only last the course of the race which leads me to believe winter compound tires would be super grippy in summer but would also deteriorate a lot faster
Another item is that the winter tires have less tread meeting the road - but instead has lots of places for the snow to go and provides that grip on snow. And of course Studs extend stopping (and acceleration) on dry surfaces, kind of like wearing metal cleats on a linoleum floor. I used to run studs all the time, however there isn't enough snow/ice all year around anymore and was noticing how much the wheels spin. My "new" car has all the fancy ABS/ESP features and now I have "studless" tires and haven't looked back. Plus - the winter tire tread wears very fast when it gets warm out..and cornering is squishyier. And it works the other way too.... Years ago I waited too late to swap and tried getting to work on a cold snowy morning. My 3-season summer tires were so hard that I lost control at low speed and hit a curb. I also feel that Directional snow tires make a huge difference when it comes to cornering - having owned both over the years on the same car - I recommend paying the premium.
Another thing when comparing winter tires vs. summer/all-season tires is sidewall rigidity. Winter tires have less rigid sidewalls, and if you use them on a high-gripping surface, ie. asphalt in the summer, the tire will behave quite badly when you're cornering or doing other sudden movements. The sidewall will kind of "bend" quite a bit and you'll lose a lot of grip.
This could be tested on a skid pad, trying out for the max v that the tires can handle before you start losing grip.
As someone who had a complaint about the last tire test, this I feel is a great and very informative comparison.
I didn't take that close of a look at the tread patterns, but I wonder if one of the other reasons the all-seasons do better is because of greater surface area. Snow tires are designed to allow snow to pack in (one of the best way to get grip on snow is to use snow) so I figure that would inherently lower surface area.
You can run winter tires year-round your MPG will reduce with winter tires. Sumoto Ice edge are very good on traction all year. The grip of the winter tire holds traction and does not lose traction in the summer. My car stops shorter in distance with the Sumoto Ice Edge in the summer than the Good year Eagles in the summer.
back when I had a cheap econo car, I needed to get tires but couldn't afford good ones. so I went to my local used tire place and got 4 practically new winter tires for $120 installed. wierd part is, how did the shop end up with these tires in South Florida? the tires were loud and did well in the summer rain.
Winter tires being bad in the summer is common knowledge nowadays, I've heard theories of the material gelling over under high heat braking. However I'd like to see a test using 3/5/7/10 year old winter tires, because people are being told by "tire experts" to basically throw away their winter tires after 3-5 years as the compound has hardened up and are basically useless as winter tires. However seeing as how people only use them for a few months of the year, they could very well still have 90% of their tread left by that point. So by listening to them, you would need to buy a new set of winter tires that often to appease them, because according to those same experts you can't use them in summer either. However, taking into account the natural drying and hardening they've gone through year after year sitting in storage in the off-season, I'd be curious to find out how their performance is affected, in summer, at let's say 10 years old - which is my current case, driving a car in winter, fall, spring and yes summer, with hardened up 10 year old winter tires with 90% of their tread left, unwilling to throw seemingly "perfectly good tires" in the trash.
Whats with all the freedom units, I thought you were an engineer!
I was born in America. We use both units here.
Not many outside the US even understand imperial because all we use is metric. It would be great if you could use metric or imperial + metric because it really helps a lot to not go check every time how much it actually is.
Miko I do agree with you, however as for now (as a first year) its extremely difficult to estimate if the number you just calculated is reasonable as ive never used these units before.. however I keep practicing, cause it is very useful to be able to understand both!
It teaches us to be more flexible.
lol freedom units i love it !!!But yeah even in my engineering courses we use both. Starting to transition more to metric but for people like us who grew up on "freedom" unit, Its hard to really visualize a measurement in metric.
I just ran winter tires for whole summer and no problems with stopping. They are a bit nosier but that's about it. Not much thread lost. Now, when it is raining, it is good to be a bit extra careful, but still it is stable.
Norway here. We all use Summer tires during the summer and proper winter tires during winter. Nokian Hakkapelita are a favorite among many northern folks.
When on dry road surface, I've noticed a threshold when breaking hard with winter tires where there is a sudden loss of traction/grip. This abrupt threshold isn't so apparent with my summer tires (even in the winter when they are rock hard). My theory for this is that under this threshold (normal conditions), the soft compound with sipes will deform slightly and keep a broad contact patch on the flat portion of tread between the sipes. When at this threshold and above (supra normal conditions, i.e. hard accel/decel), the tread deforms so far that the siping causes extra ridges to form creating a "rougher" surface. This is after all what the sipes are there to do, create ridges for more snow to get caught in/push against and provide better water evacuation. This is good on snow which conforms to the rough tread shape. However when on pavement, with these edges protruding farther than the flat contact patches between the sipes, this raises the flat contact patch and causes the tire to ride on the skinny edges. This decreases the total surface area in contact with the road surface. Less contact between rubber and road means less grip, which means more slippage. I bet that if you took the same compound that my winter tires are made of (michelin x-ice xi3's), and took away the sipes, then they would stop in a shorter distance on dry pavement than the original (siped) version. And quite possibly better than my summer tires if tread pattern was the same and only the compound was different. Though this compound would have pretty poor tread life during the summer.
Even F1 teams dont really use ultra soft tires on hot tracks as the tires overheat and the tires dont last very long.
IIGrayfoxII supersoft for the win
Shame pirelli cant make a proper compounds.
Super softs lasting the entire race.
They should get them to last in the following manner
Ultra Soft: 12% of 200km(race distance)
Super Soft: 24% of 200km(race distance)
Soft: 36% of 200km(race distance)
Medium:48% of 200km(race distance)
Hard: 60% of 200km(race distance)
Well that is all extremely dependent on timing and regulations with them, they need to precisely portion out their tire use against time gain and time lost on changes.
It is in no way a one solution pony.
Finnish engineers have a lock on cold weather compound formulation. I would recommend that you do the same testing on Hakkapeliitta manufactured tires.
Interesting results. Another thing to think about may be the tread pattern. The all-season tires probably have a bit more rubber in contact with the road than the winter tyres. I wonder if you'd have similar differences in performance on wet roads or not.
We live a few hours south near Sun Valley. We run winter tires all year. 6 years now and no issues lol. Cheaper and less hassle. We will be moving to Oregon in a year or so. So glad to not have to run winter tires any more!
I live in Michigan, on my 06 Crown Vic Interceptor I run General Altimax Arctics in winter and General Gmax AS03 in summer, both the same size. The difference is amazing. The winters are very surefooted in snow and slush but are very squirmy when pushed just a little. When I change wheels from winter to summer it feels like a different car, handles MUCH better and feels much more surefooted on the highway especially at speeds over 70.
I run winters all year not a problem , not too concerned about the loss of grip in the heat but I guess I would be if I couldnt stop in time and hit a tree LOL
I run summer tires in snow and i have no problem.
Some years I drove about 5k miles a year and kept the winters on. They were noisy, I kept my speed down driving the highways, but were great handling wet.
I had them on a small awd suv. When my wheels needed aligned they wore out incredibly fast in a couple months fast.
On my turbo awd suv I change seasonally between all weather and winter for best handling.🌦❄️🌬
I've heard that winter tyres are a lot more prone to aqua-planing than summer tyres. I have also experienced aqua-planing with winter tyres in conditions where I think the summer tyres would have done better. You can also tell by the threading on summer tyres that they are designed to eject water away through the curved canals, while winter tyres don't have threading designed especially for water dispersion.
The province of Quebec (in Canada) actually mandates the use of winter tires from mid-November to mid-April every year. All-season tires just aren't good enough when you have more than ~2 days a year with meaningful snowfall.
Beyond that, you can actually be pulled over and have your tires inspected for wear and tread depth in the winter; so even if you have winter tires and run them all year round, your tread may not pass the test and you'll still get ticketed.
Yes I totally agree. My 2015 WRX handles and grips wonderfully with winter tires at cold temps but those same tires are really squishy at anything over 50 deg F.
The siping is key with braking tests, the block movement resulting in few clean surfaces on the road are a huge limiting factor. If you'd tested lateral grip you'd have found the results closer which highlights compound is less of an issue (until overheated)
If you fancy talking tyres more, I'll make sure I'm visiting Carthrottle next time you're in the UK!
how did you remember all of that and say it all while driving, skill right there😂
A bit of prep and a list
Someone is on the hood with flash cards.
it is not a big deal but on mobile your end card overlays your correcting annotation information on the error you made on naming tyre you made a point about.
This was also something I wondered. Thanks for investigating.
After watching your video, it reminds me driving in the alleys of Chicago Illinois with treacherous snow conditions.
Is winter really ever going to end
Nope... it's dropping down to low 40s here in DC in the next week.
Isogen Were at 80 in Colorado. few days ago it was snowing
no, as long as people in the US deny climate change.
Climate changes all the time. Either we're going to freeze over or we're going to boil over....they can't make up their minds.
MavHunter20XX In the 70's (I was there) the scientists were wringing their hands about the 'Coming Ice Age'. Then in the 80's it was 'Nuclear Winter' because the left just KNEW that Reagan, the EVIL extremist, was going to Nuke the Russians. Then in the 90's it was 'Global Warming', Al Gore assured us that New York City would be under water by now. Now 'Climate Change' is the buzz words that get government grants. It's all B.S. and political agendas. Follow the money; the money trail never lies, science does.
Nice video - just a couple of comments:
- With Tread patterns, my understanding is that for winter tyres the tread pattern is designed to allow the rubber to move more, and generate heat in the tread to generate the grip. This is what makes them perform worse when it's warm as the tread overheats. One thing I think you should consider is going to a skid pan, and getting a tap from the steering column sensor and a lateral accelerometer, and seeing the difference between applying a steering force and the time taken for the car to turn (applied lateral acceleration) - I expect there will be a significant delay on the winter tyres to the summer tyres.
- Regarding control of the variables, the one variable that I think was not controlled was brake line pressure. I understand that you mentioned the ABS was cutting in and that the tyre is the limiting factor, however this is only effective down to ~15 mph when the wheel speed sensors become less effective. I think a more thorough controlled test would be to conduct the test at a range of brake line pressures, and measure the stopping distance at each brake line pressure (bit more difficult to do in terms of tooling up the car, but not impossible)
+BlythyVXR87 based on my speed vs time graph, ABS becomes less effective at 2 mph on the Crosstrek, so it's actually super consistent testing. Perhaps I'll show this in a future video for folks to see. At 2 mph, the distance traveled is less than a foot for braking distance, so not really an impact on final results. But definitely something worth discussing!
Hi! Could you do a video explaining how the old Porsche 911 air-cooled engines worked, how the newer water-cooled engines work and the pros and cons of each??
Can you do a video on cable shift vs direct shift in a manual trans?
WGRs are likely the oddball exclusion. Basically winter tire tread and bite, but made of a harder compound so it's allowable as an all-season. It's also one of the few all-seasons that don't suck in winter. Trade off is a bit more road noise, but doesn't seem all that terrible other than that.
Always educational ! Thank you.
RS. Canada
I didn't even have my speakers on for the first 5 seconds of the video, I just knew what you were saying, and I heard it in your voice.
If i may add some input: the road surface in the winter is soft and therefore i think the movement of the tyre treads helps to have a larger contact surface since it moves and shifts with the road surface (snow, whatever). On summer tyres in the snow, the tyre is rigid and therefore when the snow shifts under the wheels it will have more slip. In the summer winter tyres will try to shift with the road but the road being rigid will result in more slip - so in conclusion i think rigid road surface will get best randament with a rigid tyre and soft road surface will get it with soft tyres (i may be terribly wrong here :P ). I think there is a phenomenon there that would be cool if someone would do something like a wheel high speed camera (300-400 FPS) during this test. Also it would be cool if you do this test in warm rainy conditions - i think that the winter tyres will fail terribly there - then again maybe the rigidity of the summer tyres may result in more slip - if you find the time and resources i'd love that video. Trial and error :). Anyway, cool video! Also sorry for my awful english (or engrish) :P P.S. i'd also love to see "time wear" on any type of tyres; like brand new summer tyres vs 10 year old practically new summer tyres of the same model and make. THANK YOU FOR YOUR AWESOME VIDEOS!!!
I think that the following things occur when you use winter tyres in the summer - After exposure to high summer temperatures the compound of the winter tyres actually cooks itself and it becomes very hard so you have less grip and even if you consider re-using the tyres in the winter they won't have the same grip, because they are already "cooked".
Winter tires show good performance on wet and snowy weather. On dry asphalt performances are similar in those close to freezing temperatures. Try it on -20 or -30 celsious and you will see how different they are.
Is it worth buying a second set of rims to avoid the costs of having a shop change and balance every fall/spring?
Can be if you don't worry about TPMS sensors. If you need to recalibrate TPMS sensors each time, it won't be worth it.
I worked at Ford up here in Calgary and it's a great idea to get a dedicated set of winter tires. You only have to program the TPMS once. There is often a winter tire sale just before 1st snowfall to encourage people to come in early to install winter tires. Every winter, people seem to forget to change tires until the first snowfall, and then there are 800 people pleading for service! Then when the all-season tires wear out, that came with the car when new, you can get a dedicated summer tire and voila! You have the best of both worlds!
Andrew Wood Yeah I have a cheap set of steel rims for my winter tires. An hour to change tires in my driveway in the fall/spring is more convenient and saves ~$40 every time. I don't have TPMS to worry about, I just keep a gauge in the glovebox
absolutely yes, plus if you get a flat you can sub in a snow tire instead of the doughnut
Wait - that was a legit question?
i thought that is a joke.
in most of middle europe this is just normal - you get a set of summer and a set of winter tires. Changing them is really easy and fast and only the elderly and some really .. picky... people go to a shop for that.
when i import my 555 sti, i ran the snow tires that the car came with. 0 grip, quite scary when it was raining as well. the good thing is that i knew how to keep control of my car when sliding and understeering
Great video! I was wondering if increasing the winter tire pressure will have a better impact on the test. What do you think?
here in germany i often see people with shiny new performance tires on big alloys in the summer...and then the cheapest narrowest winter tires they could find for the winter (presumably because all the money got spend on the bling bling stuff ;) ) - would be interesting to see a new, performance sommer tire against a
cheap old, worn down winter tire - in wet and snowy conditions.
What people really need is a demonstration of the power of winter tires in winter. People don't use winter tires when they should.
This video is also useful, don't get me wrong. But you can't abuse winter tires if you never bought them.
I ride a motorcycle with knobbies, and you can feel how each knob flexes a little when turning hard, allowing the tyre to effectively slip a little. This probably happens with winter tyres as well, as you describe
What wears winter tires more:
Higher temps? or dry roads?
I'm guessing that colder temps protect the softer tires because they are harder in winter = less wear. I also think that snow on roads causes less wear than dry roads. What Im wondering is if dry roads in winter are much of a concern for wear of snow tires? or is temperature the main concern?
Definitely suggest crossclimate2’s. I’m at 55,000 miles and they’re still great in the winter and quite in summer
I have had some bad experiences with winter tyres but it was more in the wet. I respect your numbers but without numbers and not having the car with all seasons yet to compare and know what I was missing I was not phased by the dry performance. I did have a few near misses on just a wet road corner and another time in heavy rain that had enough water that hydroplaning may have been possible except I was accelerating and it felt like all 4 wheels were turning as I overtook a slow moving vehicle in my Forester. I attribute the symmetrical awd to keeping the car very neutral through it all. After those experiences I was fearful that if I encountered an unexpected wet patch on a corner in the midst of otherwise dry road it could spell trouble. The reason I am watching is because of an accident where a vehicle with all winter tyres travelling at a moderate speed in heavy rain could not stop when the vehicle in front stopped suddenly. The driver reported being on the brakes hard and hearing and feeling all the abs working but the vehicle just would not stop. A test of the wet braking and cornering of winter tyres in summer time would be very interesting I suspect. Please do not do it on public roads however so we can keep getting your videos :-)
I was always told not to use winter tires in warmer weather bc of excessive wear. I guess the compound is ideal for colder weather. It likely hardens to a point where it provides great grip but doesnt wear away.
I have an older Accord and delayed buying new summer tires so running Michelin X ice until fall and will just buy new ones then--if I keep the car. Basically, verifies your test. Driving in a spirited manner causes the tires to feel greasy, not good grip. Stopping distances are DEFINATELY longer as the days get warmer. This is the same greasy condition my Z06 used to get driving with street tires on the track once they got overheated--which is why the car is now on Hoosier slicks.
Dude, don't let them mount your tiers to the Yellow alignment dot... The RED is supposed to be lined up with the valve stem. I made them take my tires off and do it again, I think you are to nice to your shop. Been watching your for a while. Thank you for what you do!
You should do a vid on drag radials vs slicks for factory cars, not dedicated drag cars.
Great video. I have always wondered about this. Result is a little surprising, though your hypotheses make sense.
why is it surprising?
I associate softer compound with more, not less, grip -- like when you compare pilot super sports to all seasons. I was expecting winter tires to have terrible tread life, but not materially worse grip.
How a tyre acts on the road really depends on how old it is + the quality it self ! also have in mind humidity road surface and vehicle weight these are all factors that will effect braking and accelarating. for me i would change my tyres every 4 years depending on what i have done with my car ! now if you drive slowly in city conditions and you go maximum 100 km/h rarely sure you can run even 6 years with summer tyres but i would not reccomend that when a tyre ages no matter the thread the material it self loses its qualities and it becomes either junk or you can use them for burners ! winter tyres are really important also i would change them every 3 years if i drove around 50km everyday ! i mean come on don't you buy new shoes every now and then same goes with the car
all seasons are great for taxi drivers or people who just have small little cars they use only in city conditions
You will mostly find the performance of a tire degrade greatly from age when using poor quality tires. Remember, tire manufacturers make various quality tires. Buy cheap, get cheap. But sometimes you can come across a good tire inexpensively. I drove a Porsche 928 on Fuzion ZRi's for six years, terrific tires, good in the rain, and inexpensive to boot. Today, they market them as Firestones with a different name. Talk to others who own your type of vehicle. Learn what they like in tires. There's a forum for just about every vehicle made. Ask around and see what other people are using, and what they like. Top priced Michelin and Bridgestone tires are almost always going to be excellent, but their off branded tires can be excellent, too (Bridgestone makes both Fuzion and Firestone).
Jason I would agree with you on this but I would propose a follow-up question and experiment. What happens when the winter tire is nearly worn out? Having very little tread depth the tread blocks, I would think, wouldn't move and shift around as much when they get warm and thus I don't think it would have the adverse effect they do when new like you experienced. And if that's the case, would it actually improve grip? I moved from North Dakota to Phoenix, AZ in January and I have a pair of Nokian Hakka R2's on the rear (drive wheels) of my 2000 Lexus LS400. At least in accelerating I have to say I can't get the car to break loose on dry pavement even if I powerbrake the thing. However when I had all-season tires I could do donuts all day when the temperature was around 50-60 degrees. What do you think?
Do a winter tire vs summer tire on off-road. The winter is better in mud and sand.
really liked this test but could you do same test but with bald tires to try test just the compounds? great vids
Coming from the motorbike world I know that you never go to a race track with street tires. The problem with street tires is that they heat up FAR quicker than race tires. At first this sounds good because hot tires means more traction, right? Yes, up to a certain point. And after that the tires just start to get far too hot and that's when they start to smear and lose traction. Race tires take a lot longer to get up to temperature but when you floor them on a race track, you'll get there eventually. And that's where race tires are at their best.
Coming back to this topic, my guess is that it's probably the same with winter / summer tires. In theory winter tires should have more grip because they get hot more easily. But when you use them in higher temperatures they were not designed for, they'll get far too hot and also start to smear, just like street tires for motorbikes.
An all weather version of a US spec all season tire, such as Michelin CrossClimate, a summer spec tire that meets the winter spec may be a good compromise for those who need occasional better winter tire performance but don't reside on high mountain ice/snow covered roads.
Have wondered about using snow tires running the 1/4 mile in a 4x4 truck with traction issues.
thanks!
would love to see you do a video on micro siping. a nascar team was recently caught doing it. so something must be there.
Can you do a video explaining winter tires, summer tires, all season tires, off road tires and high performance tires(semi slicks or slicks)?
I think he already di one on summer vs winter vs all season. basically they come down to optimum operating temperature
Once we had a very warm winter where the temperature rarely went below 8C° and i noticed that my wintertires felt sort a like "chewinggum" in corners on february. Thing was, due to the warm remperatures the profile on the tires literally "offset" of the tire
How do you think how the results would be if you made the test in the wet condition?I belive the winter tires will be more efficient that the summer tires,mainly do to the winter tires profile.
Quick question, why did you pick all season tires versus getting some summer tires?
+Jonathon Duran I probably would have gone with summer, but the all-seasons were the stock tires from the factory (came with the car).
Completely forgot about that little fact haha. Thanks!
Jonathon Duran
It rains during the summer too.
Canada Post runs Winter tires year round. As long as you're not pushing the tire they hold up super well in the Summer.
At my dealer, I was told the rear diff (wrx) could get extra wear if I don't exchange tires when it warms. I change for safety in the winter and performance in the summer. In Cleveland it may snow or be 80 degrees through April so it is tough to decide when to swap.
Makes perfect sense. I wonder how "all weather" tires do against "all season" tires. The new "all weather" claim to be effective in all weather conditions. I have only seen one test ever done of this newer technology - all weather seem better than all-season on multiple conditions.
You should do a test on how tires change as they age. I have a pair of old Blizzaks which are about 8 years old and they have become so hard they are pretty well useless in the snow now (with minimal wear).
Here in Bulgaria you get a ticket if you dont have winter tires during the winter. but if you have winters in the summer its fine
It's fine but not safe.
You should try on wet asphalt as well. I had winter tires that were great in snow and on ice, but complete failures on wet and dry asphalt. Nowadays I drive on winter tires that are ok in all aspects, not being 10/10 on anything, but no 2/10 either. I just changed to summer tires, and even then my decent winter tires doesn't come close in handling and braking distance to real summer tires.
winter tires are actually a great cheap alternative to drag radials due to a soft tread and a flexible sidewall. Maybe you should do a test to see how they act under acceleration.
Not only in the tread block, but some snows don't even have a reinforced sidewall (Q rated) or even speed rating. This results in sidewall torque, which is much like how a drag tire shifts when under load. Not only does a snow tire under perform in the summer in braking, but because of the typical higher speeds and higher temps in the summer, this means Un-even wear. This causes an uncomfortable ride, due to typical cupped tread (vibration) and decrease in tire longevity (tread depth). Wrong equipment for the element. Just like you wouldn't wear crampons in the sand.
That's because you shouldn't be driving in snow at high speeds, so winter (mud and snow rated) tires aren't designed for high speeds. Way too many people want ONE tire to be great at everything. Not going to happen. Race boys just want to go as fast as they can all the time. Normal people just want to get where they're going, and if it takes a little longer to get there in terrible weather, then so be it. I've driven snow tires in the summer, and summer performance tires in the snow. What it takes, is the patience to adapt the situation to the tires you have; that often means slowing down, adjusting tire pressure to adjust the contact patch, and of course, prepare to drive with less traction, so don't mash the throttle or brakes. Most people can't be bothered, and just want to continue to drive as fast as they possibly can.
Good info and GREAT looking road to drive!
Hey man I've been watching your vids for a long time. I do like the new format of videos you've done, but when are you going to bring back the white board? 😁
It's not only about handling and braking - fuel consumption go up drastically using winter tyres.
I'm suprised that you have the shop switch the tires on the same rim and not just have a completely different set of rims. Less chance of the bead getting messed up.
I am curious then what the difference between all season and summer tires during the summer. thanks for the video
I make about 20 000 km/year and use summer and winter tires. The best option for long mileage and safety. Of course I use two set of wheels. Climate mediteran/mountain.
I would like to see a similar test on wet surface ... summer tire vs rain tire vs all season vs winter.
Fitting, I just changed my dad's tyres last night.
I had winter tires on one of my old cars. There was a warm spell for a few weeks but sense I was a poor high school grad I couldn't afford a second set of wheels with other tires not to mention a place to store them. I had huge wear on the tires and pieces of rubber flying off in just 50 degree weather. They still felt pretty good though.
I'm still on my winter tyres sadly. April was quite crazy and we still got snow. So there was no point of changing in April. But my PS4S will go on soon.
Excellent video
Great! been waiting for a honest analysis like this. I have a 2012 Range Rover Evoque that I take off-road frequently and would love to have the extra grip but I live in California a d worry about heat. Just not sure if the trade off is worth it. The car has a stopping distance of 113' which is great on All-season tires (Michelin) but wonder how much difference I'd have with soft rubber. But in 35000 miles I've never been in a lockup situation.
This video educationally enlightened me
I run blizzard ws80 only tire I run where I live it snows like crazy I live quite away from work and work 5 days a week I get 70,000 miles out of them and they are at 2/32-3/32 thread life with no issues with them. I do drive in various road conditions all year anywhere from snow to mud to loose gravel I maintain the speed limit and the givin road conditions
sooooo scenic, is this around the appalachians somewhere?
Boise Idaho
Well I was pretty off lol. Thanks
I guess there's diminishing return to soft compound, at one point the become too soft and brake away like you said. Interesting. It also make sens, otherwise tire maker would use the same material for super sport tire as winter tire, which they don't.
I think that the best lesson for winter tire users would be just to teach them that winter tires don't mean 100% grip on ice in -20 degrees while going 140km/h
Great video, as always.
You should try winter tyres at summer in your s2k. If its even +5 celcius outside and I fully accelerate with my 220 hp RWD Benz, you can feel the rear end squirming and even the traction control warns me of slippery conditions with bone dry asphalt!