Bret Hart had REASONABLE creative control over the last 30 days of his contract. They hoodwinked Eric here by leaving that out. Not dropping the belt on your way to another company is not reasonable & Vince absolutely would veto that as unreasonable.
I’m not 100 percent behind how Vince handled that situation but I understand because at the time the WWE with on the edge of closing shop. He couldn’t have his top title showing up on his main competitor which was trying to put him out of business. He wasn’t going to take that chance
It's called tradition and it's as old as the territories: on your way out to go to another territory or company, you drop the belt on your way out; it's part of doing business! Bret knew that so he had no excuse whatsoever. He saw Flair drop the belt to him and Flair did a job for Mr.Perfect for his last match! Heck, Cena just did a job for Solo! No excuses for Bret.
Dave Meltzler using leaked info means he is stealing intellectual property and writing about the stolen intellectual property and should be both sued and arrested
John Cena may have had the highest segments during his ten year run, but he was also connected to every single guy that also got over in that period (Brock Lesnar, CM Punk, Daniel Bryan, ect). It could also be argued that John Cena ran off more viewers than any other top star that came before him.
Aye Cena/Orton coming into WWF was as soon as i and everyone i know quit wrestling. Embarrassing gimmick in Cena and a WCW quality absolutely boring nothing guy in Orton pushed as a main eventer
The way I've always understood the contract for Bret was "reasonable" creative control. I'm still a Bret Hart performer fan, but I don't want to drop the title in this particular city for the reason we all know, is not reasonable. It's just not. Vince had every right to do what he did. It's his company, at the time. I have never thought it was a reasonable reason for Bret to not drop the title. It didn't make sense to his character. He was super over with the Canadian fans. He could have dropped it and shook Shawn's hand, in full babyface mode and Shawn could have super kicked him in true heel mode. It would have done so much for both. Bret could have come back in 3 years or whatever and had "unfinished business". The story writes itself. But it was personal for Bret. And personal reasons are not reasonable character control. Is what it is
I know I wasn't there but it had nothing to do with Brett not wanting to lose in Canada because of being a Canadian hero. Bret Hart did not want to lose to that prima Donna and most overrated wrestler of all time and missed his true calling in being an acrobat in a circus or a strip Chip and Dale dancer in Shawn Michaels. He did not want to drop the belt to somebody as undeserving as him due to what Shawn Michaels said to him backstage when Brett was willing to do business. And Vince screwed Brett first by offering him such a lucrative contract and then backing out and reneging on it. So no Vince (copycat) off Eric Bischoff who was the heal authority figure first you screwed Brett. And no I'm not a Bret Hart Fanboy either just calling it like I see it.
I would have probably used an intermediary wrestler to take the belt from Bret and had that intermediary wrestler immediately lose to Shawn. I agree with Vince that the title needed to change hands at the PPV. However, the screwjob angle created a new character (Mr. McMahon) and probably made the WWF/E tens of millions of dollars and I agree that the outgoing wrestler should drop the belt on the way out.
Hold up. Paused it 20:00 because I didn't hear clearly. Rewound a few seconds and I did hear it right. Tony was named booker of the year? Twice!?? Does Dave have ANY idea of what a booker is??!!! Oh no 🤦
THANK YOU THANK YOU THANK YOU ERIC for calling Conrad out on his BS at 1:20:00. THANK YOU SIR. Bret Hart had 'reasonable creative control', according to what has always been said about his contract. Not 'creative control'. "Reasonable creative control." What's reasonable? Depends on what you ask. But it sure as hell ain't "that doesn't work for me brother".
The contract probably had specifics on what reasonable creative control encompassed as well any limitations. Bret had some sort of veto power given that he involved his attorney. My understanding is that both sides had to agree to the creative. So Bret could say no but couldn’t dictate what was to happen without Vince okaying it. Which is where the stalemate came in and led to the screw job.
IMO "reasonable" control for a wrestler is NO creative control. Bret needed to swallow his pride and drop the belt to whomever he was told to. I would have used an intermediary wrestler for Bret to drop to then immediately the intermediary would have dropped to Shawn and I would have blacklisted Bret from working in the then WWF for not doing his job. Bret certainly wouldn't be in the WWE Hall of Fame today. I agree with Vince McMahon that most title drops must take place on PPV to get the biggest bang and profit from it. I wouldn't have thought of a screwjob (granted, the idea of a screwjob came from Jim Cornette) and probably wouldn't have went there even if someone suggested it at the time. However, the screwjob was the catalyst for the heel Mr. McMahon character which made the company tens of millions of dollars at minimum (something that even then WWF co-booker Jim Cornette wouldn't have thought of happening) so everything worked out in the end.
I am absolutely pissing myself laughing just picturing Flair throwing working punches on Bischoff and somehow making his own head juice as usual whilst doing it, then flopping onto his stomach afterwrds 😂
Thank YOU for that quote around 29min mark. "Might not be your day week month or year, but you're still here." Hit me positively and needed, hope y'all have a great Christmas season.
Shane had the chance to stand up for his dad after seeing him get knock the heck out but he didn't so Shane ain't no tough guy and wanted anything to do with an irate bret hart
"You've got to get the fans frothing at the mouth rabid for their guy to win the title..." "The money is in the chase..." I get that, but when do you finally pull the damn trigger? It feels like WWE only does this once every 2-3 years these days. It's always HEAT.
That doesn't matter though. Bret was supposed to drop the title to Shawn and refused to - which was just silly. How Shawn was behaving was largely irrelevant.
The UFC guy makes a good point, and Eric makes a good point of expounding upon it, but the promotion itself cannot put someone over. Guys like MJF got where he did because he was doing something like what Jericho did in the mid 90s. LA Knight is getting over because he is appealing to the Attitude Era nostalgia crowd. It doesn't happen to everyone, and it doesn't happen overnight. If you look at someone like DDP, who got over with the fans before it reflected in how he got booked, he did LOTS of curtain jerking before he won his first title. He was barely above jobber status before Hall and Nash went to the WWF. DDP losing Hall and Nash was the best thing to happen to his career. Then Hall and Nash returned to form the nWo, the internet boom was just bweginning, and it all eventually led to DDP getting over, but the groundwork was done for about 5 years before DDP became a star. The point being, WCW didn't really do ANYTHING to get DDP over. DDP got over because of what DDP did with what TV time he got, and how he leveraged it when the internet did come around.
I've been a devoted fan of this podcast since Day 1, and I love / appreciate EB and CT for bringing us all these great hours of wrestling material. However... does anyone here really believe, that Eric believes, that Shane M. could have taken Bret H. Physically in that situation? No knock on Shane or his ability to kick a$$ because I'm sure Shane can take care of himself very well in a fight. But come on... Just asking the Ad Free Show's family here for their input.
I love love love Eric B and this podcast! I look forward to everything that Eric says! BUT! There is no way that Shane McMahon could of taken Brett Hart in a shoot! Not even a chance. Brett would of made minced meat out of Shane!
lol. Maybe the reason Tony didn’t announce Ric Flair is because he thinks the only people who ever drew money was Hogan, Savage and Piper…There’s your gotcha moment Eric. Wooooooo
Eric I love ya brother but you yourself said long ago that Bret Hart had creative control in WCW. You were speaking on the Legends of Wrestling show on the WWE Network with Foley, Michael Hayes, Jerry Lawler, and JR. Pretty sure it was the "Monday Night War" episode. Either that or the "nWo" episode. But I remember you saying that only two people in WCW had creative control and they were Hulk and Bret.
I gotta agree with Eric on Hulk doing business. You're saying they're the same but they aren't. Hulk may have pulled his creative control card but the business was literally for him to take his ball and go home. That's what ended up being scripted and agreed upon. Bret straight up said this is how it's going to be and that's that. From my understanding the Hulk issue was talked about and they came to an agreement that worked.
I wonder how fast the fanboy in Conrad would get down and open wide for Bret. Comparing the hart and Vince thing to the hogan and russo thing is laughable. Conrad also just completely ignores the fact that Bret had “Reasonable” creative control in his last 60 days. Reasonable IS NOT refusing DOZENS of creative pitches in which he lost the belt because all he wanted the whole time was to leave as the champion because in his own words he felt like “his character was a hero and couldn’t disappoint all of his Canadian fans by coming up short before leaving by losing”. He was being a self important diva and acting like if he lost the belt that tons of little Canadian boys and girls would slit their wrists. The Canadian hero couldn’t possibly lose before leaving, he had to keep the belt and go out on tv and forfeit it so he could leave as the respected veteran champion. Ridiculous.
My understanding is that Bret was willing to drop the belt to anyone but Shawn. If he was using that to avoid losing in Canada I would have fired him immediately, took the belt due to a disqualification (I would have made up some reason), declared the championship vacant and did a three level tournament at the next PPV to crown the new belt holder. It would have ruined the Montreal PPV but at that time I wouldn't have done a screwjob. Now that we know that screwjobs can enhance the story I wouldn't hesitate to do a screwjob in this type of case. I wonder what Vince would have done if Jim Cornette hadn't suggested a screwjob and Bret were truly unwilling to lose in Canada, though.
Did anyone else just find out after all of these years that Bret Hart had full creative control? Or is Conrad just making shit up again, Dave Meltzer style? I would be shocked if Bret had creative control in WWF back then, as Vince never gave that to anyone...He seemed to not have an answer other than that "Yes, he did...Everyone has known that for decades." Sounds like another Conrad fact, just like the one where he pretends that AEW is a legit competitor of WWE...Hilarious...lol.
OK guys get this. On the episode 83 Weeks Bret Hart in WCW, EZ E claims that he had nothing to do with Bret's contract. That was handled by the attorneys. Now he is saying that he offered Bret what he wanted to offer Bret and didn't have to ask anyone for permission. So is EZ E lying?
He had nothing to do with going through the contract with Bret, the attorneys did that. Eric probably created it but that's as far as that went, I don't know, I think Eric doesn't think before he speaks sometimes 😂
I love Eric and his POV he keeps it real. Listing to ConMan is just painfully he’s so bias he’s so pro AEW it’s unlistenable. Like I kno u make money with them but damn that why AEW won’t grow cause there fans can’t be honest
...1:05:30...he wants to take the belt, he spits in your face, he destroys your equipment, he knocks you the fook out, and yet you're the bad guy?...yeah, that makes sense...lol...
What will happen first: 1. AEW will get a 2 million viewer rating for Dynamite. 2. Conrad will be objective about anything to do with Bret Hart. I'm thinking the former. SO DISAPPOINTED. Guaranteed he won't talk to Bruce or JR about this, who will set him straight.
Montreal (like anything wrestling related) was a work, in my opinion. It is entertainment after all. That said, Vince really put on a good show in that interview. His company was getting whipped by WCW and he ended up making himself part of the show, which helped WWE return to the top.
And sent a really boring wrestler in Hart who as a top guy played a big role in WWF being number two, and once a WCW main eventer played a big part in them collapsing. Everyone thinks Bret is a legend but at the time he had no heat and his matches were incredibly boring. He had a good look, but zero charisma.
@@burntvirtue I think Bret Hart got lost in the shuffle and didn't have the passion to go the extra mile to be creatively invested in WCW. I don't think he wanted to be there and that's very understandable.. He could play a heel or face and obviously is a great worker. I think for whatever reasons he just didn't fit or gel with what was going on over there.
When the Montreal screw job took place in November 1997 I was 12 years old. I remember how I heard about it the next day because I did not watch the Survivor series 97 I was pretty fucking shocked because I seen the shady side of the WWF and I know there was other dark stories like the steroid trial but that was in 1992 and I was too young to care about that and they never really mentioned that on their shows during the time, but this the screw job really took me by surprise, and it made me realize how evil and cutthroat, Vince McMahon really is, the Montreal screw job was a chain reaction in wrestling that was followed by the death of Owen Hart a year and a half later then WCW going out of business in 2001 and for a few years wrestling was pretty stale then in 2005 Eddie Guerrero dies then in 2007. It was the Benoit murder suicide, which led to the PG era and wrestling went downhill from there never recovered.
Bret agreed to drop the title to ANYONE but the asshole who disrespected him. Austin, Taker, Brawler, anyone. Top guys ALL have egos, especially Erics buddy Hulk Hogan. So gimme a break. I mean, cmon.
He did not "have" creative control. This is how the narrative gets skewed. His contract mentioned "reasonable" creative input. It did not state he was the final say.
I wonder what would happen if the situation was reversed, and Bret screwed Shawn. Bret said he would never do it, but do you think Vince would force Bret to screw Shawn right before he goes to WCW?
@@donniewynn3277 Well that makes 2 of us lol Nah I'm completely heterosexual, yet had a "man crush" on HBK ever since he put Marty Jannetty through a barber shop window. Cried during his "Tell Me A Lie" videos, cried when he retired, cried during his Hall Of Fame Speech, etc. His Heartbreak and Triumph DVD was something I worshiped. Still have an advertisement of that DVD from a WWE magazine on my bedroom wall. Had the last girl I dated watch it with me, and had my Mom watch it with me. It's still some of my fondest memories. Now looking back at it, it seems so gay to be into a male wrestler so much who wore what he wore in the early 90''s, dancing around, eventually posing for playgirl, and had such gay entrance music lol Don't get it twisted, I support the LGBT community to the fullest, and support all lifestyles. I have no right to criticize any lifestyle, but just using the word gay in 2024 is seen as so controversial and hateful now. Still, it seems like the nicest alternative to more derogatory sounding terms. These days I have absolutely no interest in him as someone who oversees NXT. I couldn't care less about NXT. Only care about HBK as a wrestler in the major league, not a runner of developmental where he doesn't wrestle. I'd rather make a playlist of Shawn Michaels promos as a singles wrestler in the 90s. or promos from 2002-2010. That's the Shawn Michaels I still want, but would probably depress me seeing an old man who lost so much hair, and looks like the shell of a man who was a hero to me growing up. Always wish I could rewind time, and somehow lock in the 90s for the rest of my life, pro wrestling wise. Sorry for writing so much.
Don’t feel like it was as a burial either. This was the 90s where for many the situation was confusing. Today there would 1000 podcast over explaining what happened. McMahon wasn’t disrespectful he told his truth without lifting the curtain too much. WWE was his company and he wasn’t going to let someone highjack it. Everything ended how he said it would Bret regretted it and WWE moved on. Eric was 100 percent right on this one.
Bret's creative control clause was SPECIFICALLY for his final 60 days in the company. He didn't have it UNTIL he was "going out the door". Hogan had it for his entire contract length.
Opportunities are hard to get... thanks . Some of us never ever get one. If I was ever allowed on tv I would milk all 15 minutes to the fullest. If u hate it or love it ud remember it lol.
Kenny Omega, MJF, Jon Moxley, Bryan Danielson, Chris Jericho, Darby Allin, Swerve Strickland, Andrade El Idolo, Jay White need to be the 10 guys. And some aren’t even on TV all the time 🤦♂️
Wether or not Bret should have approached the discussion table differently, the fact still is, Bret and Vince (somewhat unwillingly) agreed on a finish for the match in Montreal, then Vince screewed Bret by breaking this agreement. Then, wether or not one thinks Bret was unreasonable going into the match is another discussion. A whole seperate matter. Thirdly, one might agree or disagree with Vince that screewing Bret was justified, but this too is seperate issue. So, the fact stands, Vince screewed Bret. Reason = Vince and Bret made a deal, then Vince broke the deal and set up a scenario behind Brets back. Another word for this scenario is to con someone, which is synonym to screew someone. Its really that simple folks. They both handled the situation poorly, which is a shame. In a different world, without the screewjob, Vince would have brought Bret back within a couple of years, and everyone would have won. Vince, Bret and all of us, the fans.
Flair showing up on TNT/TBS for the first time since the final Nitro and stepping into a ring with Sting and Schiavone gave off such strong WCW vibes. I don't see Flair going to AEW as being them trying to rehash WWE - Flair spent far more time in NWA/JCP/WCW than he did in WWE. Ric is a WCW legend, as is Sting, while Schiavone became the voice of Nitro and WCW.
What's Thompson on about in relation to so many talent connecting with fans? What show is he watching? The ratings are awful. If they were all "connecting" with fans, that would be reflected in the ratings.
It doesn't look like it has been mentioned just yet--or if it has, I didn't see it--but I'm very certain Hogan used his "creative control card" as early as 1994. Of those three matches he had with Flair, Flair was supposed to win the second one.
I am pretty sure Bret didn't want to lose to SHAWN in Canada because of how disrespectful Bret felt he had been in the past, especially when Bret dropped the belt to Shawn and Shawn told him he didn't want to return the favor. Bret Hart is too smart and came from the wrestling old school. I am sure he would have done business with someone else. He has even said he would have gladly dropped it to someone else. It blows me away Conrad doesn't mention this. Eric is so off base here it is kind of sickening. I get he and Bret dislike each other, but to say Bret didn't get screwed is ridiculous because regardless of how anyone feels about why it happened, the fact of the matter is he was lied to. He thought they worked something out and they screwed him. It doesn't matter if Bret was being a baby or whatever. They lied to him period. Also, to say that Shane Mcmahon could beat up Bret Hart almost sounded like a child with a grudge. Like come on practically everyone says that Bret was legitimately tough and most guys wouldn't want to fight him. Even some bigger guys. Bret was a High School wrestling city champion in Calgary and did really well in provincials, but I don't remember if he did nationals. Plus he has all kinds of stories of fighting kids, lots of times protecting his family. They were picked on even in the 60's and 70's for being the promoters kid. Prime Bret Hart in the 80's and 90's wasn't the biggest guy obviously, but from all accounts he could beat a lot of ass. He was a legitimate 220+ and 5'11. Shawn was like 5'11 190, maybe pushing 200. Yes, shane has size but like come on Eric. You triggered me again muckerfother.
If you look at the WHOLE of the sum nobody was more mistreated then Bret as far as how good they were and what they got. Dude had 6 guys collectively lie to him and got sent off like a jerk in his hometown. Goes to WCW to restart and Eric had his chosen ones already and they considered him a liability after the concussion.
Everyone really needs to back up on the actual reason why Bret didn't want to drop the title. And it wasn't because it was in Canada, it was Shawn it was always dropping it to Shawn at that time. He couldn't do it i guess he felt like why should i lose my integrity dropping it to that little prick.
Vince completely buried Bret here. Vince said that at 52 he could put up a good fight with Bret. So Bret couldn't beat the hell out of Vince in a real fight? Bret was buried.
Cm punk aew is a modern version of this. Somehow Perry has become a guy getting a reaction out of it. Tk is the baby face now. I hope it’s half as successful as this was for wwe
I said this in previous comments and I still standby. My word wrestling has never been exciting after 2001 it has been very mediocre and just plain out boring since WCW went under and Eric Bischoff is always going to blame the AOL Time Warner merger and not take any responsibility for the fall of WCW but in all reality him Hulk Hogan and Kevin Nash had a lot to do with WCW going down the toilet such as giving Hogan, too much political power and letting Kevin Nash become the booker those are some of the reasons for WCW’s demise in 2001
Bret Hart had REASONABLE creative control over the last 30 days of his contract. They hoodwinked Eric here by leaving that out. Not dropping the belt on your way to another company is not reasonable & Vince absolutely would veto that as unreasonable.
That is what I heard and it makes sense. Thank you for your explanation
I’m not 100 percent behind how Vince handled that situation but I understand because at the time the WWE with on the edge of closing shop. He couldn’t have his top title showing up on his main competitor which was trying to put him out of business. He wasn’t going to take that chance
This is it
It's called tradition and it's as old as the territories: on your way out to go to another territory or company, you drop the belt on your way out; it's part of doing business! Bret knew that so he had no excuse whatsoever. He saw Flair drop the belt to him and Flair did a job for Mr.Perfect for his last match! Heck, Cena just did a job for Solo! No excuses for Bret.
@@pulsarstargrave256 💯
Eric Bishoff is right about failing. I learned a lot from failing in my life. I have been able to become successful after failing.
Dave Meltzler using leaked info means he is stealing intellectual property and writing about the stolen intellectual property and should be both sued and arrested
Him and his jooish “journalist” friends are above that
John Cena may have had the highest segments during his ten year run, but he was also connected to every single guy that also got over in that period (Brock Lesnar, CM Punk, Daniel Bryan, ect). It could also be argued that John Cena ran off more viewers than any other top star that came before him.
Orton is a proven ratings killer..but Cena is probably number 3 while JBL is number 2.
Aye Cena/Orton coming into WWF was as soon as i and everyone i know quit wrestling. Embarrassing gimmick in Cena and a WCW quality absolutely boring nothing guy in Orton pushed as a main eventer
The way I've always understood the contract for Bret was "reasonable" creative control. I'm still a Bret Hart performer fan, but I don't want to drop the title in this particular city for the reason we all know, is not reasonable. It's just not. Vince had every right to do what he did. It's his company, at the time. I have never thought it was a reasonable reason for Bret to not drop the title. It didn't make sense to his character. He was super over with the Canadian fans. He could have dropped it and shook Shawn's hand, in full babyface mode and Shawn could have super kicked him in true heel mode. It would have done so much for both. Bret could have come back in 3 years or whatever and had "unfinished business". The story writes itself. But it was personal for Bret. And personal reasons are not reasonable character control. Is what it is
Conrad is lying. Bret did not have creative control over his character. He had reasonable creative control. There is a difference.
Shane couldn't have taken Bret back then
Factual
Or now
@@indecent0079😂😂😂😂😂😂
I know I wasn't there but it had nothing to do with Brett not wanting to lose in Canada because of being a Canadian hero. Bret Hart did not want to lose to that prima Donna and most overrated wrestler of all time and missed his true calling in being an acrobat in a circus or a strip Chip and Dale dancer in Shawn Michaels. He did not want to drop the belt to somebody as undeserving as him due to what Shawn Michaels said to him backstage when Brett was willing to do business. And Vince screwed Brett first by offering him such a lucrative contract and then backing out and reneging on it. So no Vince (copycat) off Eric Bischoff who was the heal authority figure first you screwed Brett. And no I'm not a Bret Hart Fanboy either just calling it like I see it.
This ☝️, Bret didn't want to lose to Shawn because of disrespect.
I would have probably used an intermediary wrestler to take the belt from Bret and had that intermediary wrestler immediately lose to Shawn. I agree with Vince that the title needed to change hands at the PPV. However, the screwjob angle created a new character (Mr. McMahon) and probably made the WWF/E tens of millions of dollars and I agree that the outgoing wrestler should drop the belt on the way out.
Shawn was, is and always will be the better wrestler
Bishop and meltzer beef is funny A'$FUCK GET HIM ERIC
I agree
I love how both Conrad and Bischoff were fans all over again watching the opening not doing anything just watching
Hold up. Paused it 20:00 because I didn't hear clearly. Rewound a few seconds and I did hear it right. Tony was named booker of the year? Twice!?? Does Dave have ANY idea of what a booker is??!!! Oh no 🤦
It was reasonable creative control. Not total creative control. You should know that Conrad.
Only thing that was left for Rick Rude to do was show up in ECW the same week, sporting a mohawk.
THANK YOU THANK YOU THANK YOU ERIC for calling Conrad out on his BS at 1:20:00.
THANK YOU SIR.
Bret Hart had 'reasonable creative control', according to what has always been said about his contract.
Not 'creative control'. "Reasonable creative control."
What's reasonable? Depends on what you ask. But it sure as hell ain't "that doesn't work for me brother".
The contract probably had specifics on what reasonable creative control encompassed as well any limitations. Bret had some sort of veto power given that he involved his attorney. My understanding is that both sides had to agree to the creative. So Bret could say no but couldn’t dictate what was to happen without Vince okaying it. Which is where the stalemate came in and led to the screw job.
IMO "reasonable" control for a wrestler is NO creative control. Bret needed to swallow his pride and drop the belt to whomever he was told to. I would have used an intermediary wrestler for Bret to drop to then immediately the intermediary would have dropped to Shawn and I would have blacklisted Bret from working in the then WWF for not doing his job. Bret certainly wouldn't be in the WWE Hall of Fame today. I agree with Vince McMahon that most title drops must take place on PPV to get the biggest bang and profit from it. I wouldn't have thought of a screwjob (granted, the idea of a screwjob came from Jim Cornette) and probably wouldn't have went there even if someone suggested it at the time. However, the screwjob was the catalyst for the heel Mr. McMahon character which made the company tens of millions of dollars at minimum (something that even then WWF co-booker Jim Cornette wouldn't have thought of happening) so everything worked out in the end.
Yes Connie this angle this whole intro into the McMahon character did in fact print money with or without Bret this angle was genius
True. Conrad says that Hogan was the greatest heel ever, and of course that is not true. The Mr McMahon character is the greatest heel ever.
Bret would have beaten the crap out of Shane, even with his broken hand.
I am absolutely pissing myself laughing just picturing Flair throwing working punches on Bischoff and somehow making his own head juice as usual whilst doing it, then flopping onto his stomach afterwrds 😂
Thank YOU for that quote around 29min mark.
"Might not be your day week month or year, but you're still here."
Hit me positively and needed, hope y'all have a great Christmas season.
Lol Shane going at Bret "it would have been ugly for Bret" craziest thing ive heard Eric say on the podcast. Bret woulda killed shane
I think he meant that is Shane were to do something, Bret would have wrecked him and would have been legally bad
I heard both vince and Shane are pretty tough fighters.
Shane had the chance to stand up for his dad after seeing him get knock the heck out but he didn't so Shane ain't no tough guy and wanted anything to do with an irate bret hart
@@avalond1193 didn't vince tell people before he saw Brett that he was going to let him have 1 shot
Bret would’ve beat most peoples ass in the wwf at that time with the exception of maybe undertaker, Billy Gunn and farooq
I think he only had "reasonable" creative control on he exit
Yea Connie cuz we’ve never seen spit or broken equipment in a wrestling angle come on bro stop it
"You've got to get the fans frothing at the mouth rabid for their guy to win the title..." "The money is in the chase..." I get that, but when do you finally pull the damn trigger? It feels like WWE only does this once every 2-3 years these days. It's always HEAT.
Brother, look at how much time Dusty had the title, yet he was in the title picture for years. Sometimes, the chase is the story.
They all talk as if Shawn Michaels was an angel leading up to this
That doesn't matter though. Bret was supposed to drop the title to Shawn and refused to - which was just silly. How Shawn was behaving was largely irrelevant.
You couldn't be more right
Fan loyalty..bischof is on glue
What is this about Roman taking a “leave of absence”? Dude already only pops up on tv/ppv once every month or two. Can he be more absent?
The UFC guy makes a good point, and Eric makes a good point of expounding upon it, but the promotion itself cannot put someone over. Guys like MJF got where he did because he was doing something like what Jericho did in the mid 90s. LA Knight is getting over because he is appealing to the Attitude Era nostalgia crowd. It doesn't happen to everyone, and it doesn't happen overnight. If you look at someone like DDP, who got over with the fans before it reflected in how he got booked, he did LOTS of curtain jerking before he won his first title. He was barely above jobber status before Hall and Nash went to the WWF. DDP losing Hall and Nash was the best thing to happen to his career. Then Hall and Nash returned to form the nWo, the internet boom was just bweginning, and it all eventually led to DDP getting over, but the groundwork was done for about 5 years before DDP became a star. The point being, WCW didn't really do ANYTHING to get DDP over. DDP got over because of what DDP did with what TV time he got, and how he leveraged it when the internet did come around.
From all that I heard, Bret had reasonable control over his character...not complete creative control.
I've been a devoted fan of this podcast since Day 1, and I love / appreciate EB and CT for bringing us all these great hours of wrestling material. However... does anyone here really believe, that Eric believes, that Shane M. could have taken Bret H. Physically in that situation? No knock on Shane or his ability to kick a$$ because I'm sure Shane can take care of himself very well in a fight. But come on... Just asking the Ad Free Show's family here for their input.
no
Thank you lol
Shane would have been knocked out too.😊
I can picture Flair breaking in a room to fight someone. Throw work punches and when someone walks in the room to break it up he does his front flop
It's been confirmed by both sides that Bret had creative control once it was decided Vince was letting Bret out of his contract.
Eric has actually confirmed it himself in the past, he's just misremembering.
I love when these 2 have their little disagreements.. I miss those!
Even today, nothing has been a bigger story than the MSJ.
Bret har "reasonable creative control" written into his WWF contract. "Reasonable."
I love love love Eric B and this podcast! I look forward to everything that Eric says! BUT! There is no way that Shane McMahon could of taken Brett Hart in a shoot! Not even a chance. Brett would of made minced meat out of Shane!
Shane would've sweated heavily just by taking his sock off
WWE still gets credit for the Mr. McMahon character he made a pivot from a real situation and became iconic in the process.
Please do more watch alongs from raw 1998 and 1999. I just loved this show please please do more watch alongs of raw from 98 and 99.
This show was real about Brett hart to a certain extent that it had me thinking.....love is love Eric Bishoff.....
lol. Maybe the reason Tony didn’t announce Ric Flair is because he thinks the only people who ever drew money was Hogan, Savage and Piper…There’s your gotcha moment Eric. Wooooooo
I’ve actually never watched this raw either. Gonna have to check out the Nitro from the same night too.
Eric I love ya brother but you yourself said long ago that Bret Hart had creative control in WCW. You were speaking on the Legends of Wrestling show on the WWE Network with Foley,
Michael Hayes, Jerry Lawler, and JR. Pretty sure it was the "Monday Night War" episode. Either that or the "nWo" episode. But I remember you saying that only two people in WCW had creative control and they were Hulk and Bret.
I gotta agree with Eric on Hulk doing business. You're saying they're the same but they aren't. Hulk may have pulled his creative control card but the business was literally for him to take his ball and go home. That's what ended up being scripted and agreed upon. Bret straight up said this is how it's going to be and that's that. From my understanding the Hulk issue was talked about and they came to an agreement that worked.
Fantastic episode as always.
Oh and for the record Eric…. Shane Mcmahon had nothing and I mean nothing zilch zip zero for Bret Hart back In 1997 I guarantee you that.
I wonder how fast the fanboy in Conrad would get down and open wide for Bret. Comparing the hart and Vince thing to the hogan and russo thing is laughable. Conrad also just completely ignores the fact that Bret had “Reasonable” creative control in his last 60 days. Reasonable IS NOT refusing DOZENS of creative pitches in which he lost the belt because all he wanted the whole time was to leave as the champion because in his own words he felt like “his character was a hero and couldn’t disappoint all of his Canadian fans by coming up short before leaving by losing”. He was being a self important diva and acting like if he lost the belt that tons of little Canadian boys and girls would slit their wrists. The Canadian hero couldn’t possibly lose before leaving, he had to keep the belt and go out on tv and forfeit it so he could leave as the respected veteran champion. Ridiculous.
Thank you
My understanding is that Bret was willing to drop the belt to anyone but Shawn. If he was using that to avoid losing in Canada I would have fired him immediately, took the belt due to a disqualification (I would have made up some reason), declared the championship vacant and did a three level tournament at the next PPV to crown the new belt holder. It would have ruined the Montreal PPV but at that time I wouldn't have done a screwjob. Now that we know that screwjobs can enhance the story I wouldn't hesitate to do a screwjob in this type of case. I wonder what Vince would have done if Jim Cornette hadn't suggested a screwjob and Bret were truly unwilling to lose in Canada, though.
Ez e ur the man I got nice 145inch 8 point this past weekend hope ur hunting is going good bucks starting to lock down here
Great show about Brett Hart
shawn michaels booker of the year, no idea how meltzer is actually listened to. Need to go by someone else beside dumb dumb dave
Scott Ian of Anthrax played guitar on that Monday Night Raw opening song, and I had no clue until maybe the late 2000's!
I don’t know that? Interesting!
Did anyone else just find out after all of these years that Bret Hart had full creative control? Or is Conrad just making shit up again, Dave Meltzer style? I would be shocked if Bret had creative control in WWF back then, as Vince never gave that to anyone...He seemed to not have an answer other than that "Yes, he did...Everyone has known that for decades." Sounds like another Conrad fact, just like the one where he pretends that AEW is a legit competitor of WWE...Hilarious...lol.
OK guys get this. On the episode 83 Weeks Bret Hart in WCW, EZ E claims that he had nothing to do with Bret's contract. That was handled by the attorneys. Now he is saying that he offered Bret what he wanted to offer Bret and didn't have to ask anyone for permission. So is EZ E lying?
He had nothing to do with going through the contract with Bret, the attorneys did that. Eric probably created it but that's as far as that went, I don't know, I think Eric doesn't think before he speaks sometimes 😂
Eric would’ve handled the main deal points. Once agreed to the attorneys would step in to draft and negotiate the contract.
"REASONABLE creative control", Conrad. Don't lie to EB.
I love Eric and his POV he keeps it real. Listing to ConMan is just painfully he’s so bias he’s so pro AEW it’s unlistenable. Like I kno u make money with them but damn that why AEW won’t grow cause there fans can’t be honest
...1:05:30...he wants to take the belt, he spits in your face, he destroys your equipment, he knocks you the fook out, and yet you're the bad guy?...yeah, that makes sense...lol...
What will happen first:
1. AEW will get a 2 million viewer rating for Dynamite.
2. Conrad will be objective about anything to do with Bret Hart.
I'm thinking the former. SO DISAPPOINTED. Guaranteed he won't talk to Bruce or JR about this, who will set him straight.
Montreal (like anything wrestling related) was a work, in my opinion. It is entertainment after all. That said, Vince really put on a good show in that interview. His company was getting whipped by WCW and he ended up making himself part of the show, which helped WWE return to the top.
And sent a really boring wrestler in Hart who as a top guy played a big role in WWF being number two, and once a WCW main eventer played a big part in them collapsing. Everyone thinks Bret is a legend but at the time he had no heat and his matches were incredibly boring. He had a good look, but zero charisma.
@@arostwocentsSaying Bret Hart's matches were "really boring" completely destroys the credibility of anything you have to say.
@@burntvirtue I think Bret Hart got lost in the shuffle and didn't have the passion to go the extra mile to be creatively invested in WCW. I don't think he wanted to be there and that's very understandable.. He could play a heel or face and obviously is a great worker. I think for whatever reasons he just didn't fit or gel with what was going on over there.
Once you remove emotions out of this, you realize that Vince was 100% correct.
Bret honestly thought he was the worlds best wrestler lmao
When the Montreal screw job took place in November 1997 I was 12 years old. I remember how I heard about it the next day because I did not watch the Survivor series 97 I was pretty fucking shocked because I seen the shady side of the WWF and I know there was other dark stories like the steroid trial but that was in 1992 and I was too young to care about that and they never really mentioned that on their shows during the time, but this the screw job really took me by surprise, and it made me realize how evil and cutthroat, Vince McMahon really is, the Montreal screw job was a chain reaction in wrestling that was followed by the death of Owen Hart a year and a half later then WCW going out of business in 2001 and for a few years wrestling was pretty stale then in 2005 Eddie Guerrero dies then in 2007. It was the Benoit murder suicide, which led to the PG era and wrestling went downhill from there never recovered.
Bret agreed to drop the title to ANYONE but the asshole who disrespected him. Austin, Taker, Brawler, anyone. Top guys ALL have egos, especially Erics buddy Hulk Hogan. So gimme a break. I mean, cmon.
Bret Hart had creative control for the last 30 days of his contract.
He did not "have" creative control. This is how the narrative gets skewed. His contract mentioned "reasonable" creative input. It did not state he was the final say.
why even have that in a contract. Vince is going to do what he wants anyways lol@@Liverpool5095
He had REASONABLE creative control in the last 30 day of his run! Not full creative control
I wonder what would happen if the situation was reversed, and Bret screwed Shawn. Bret said he would never do it, but do you think Vince would force Bret to screw Shawn right before he goes to WCW?
since vince was screwing shawn, probably not.
HBK joining nWo on Nitro the VERY NEXT NIGHT... imagine THAT promo!
@@dangxdc8348 It would be gravelly amazement!
I don't know cause Vince is so in love with Shawn
@@donniewynn3277 Well that makes 2 of us lol Nah I'm completely heterosexual, yet had a "man crush" on HBK ever since he put Marty Jannetty through a barber shop window. Cried during his "Tell Me A Lie" videos, cried when he retired, cried during his Hall Of Fame Speech, etc. His Heartbreak and Triumph DVD was something I worshiped. Still have an advertisement of that DVD from a WWE magazine on my bedroom wall. Had the last girl I dated watch it with me, and had my Mom watch it with me. It's still some of my fondest memories. Now looking back at it, it seems so gay to be into a male wrestler so much who wore what he wore in the early 90''s, dancing around, eventually posing for playgirl, and had such gay entrance music lol Don't get it twisted, I support the LGBT community to the fullest, and support all lifestyles. I have no right to criticize any lifestyle, but just using the word gay in 2024 is seen as so controversial and hateful now. Still, it seems like the nicest alternative to more derogatory sounding terms. These days I have absolutely no interest in him as someone who oversees NXT. I couldn't care less about NXT. Only care about HBK as a wrestler in the major league, not a runner of developmental where he doesn't wrestle. I'd rather make a playlist of Shawn Michaels promos as a singles wrestler in the 90s. or promos from 2002-2010. That's the Shawn Michaels I still want, but would probably depress me seeing an old man who lost so much hair, and looks like the shell of a man who was a hero to me growing up. Always wish I could rewind time, and somehow lock in the 90s for the rest of my life, pro wrestling wise. Sorry for writing so much.
Don’t feel like it was as a burial either. This was the 90s where for many the situation was confusing. Today there would 1000 podcast over explaining what happened. McMahon wasn’t disrespectful he told his truth without lifting the curtain too much. WWE was his company and he wasn’t going to let someone highjack it. Everything ended how he said it would Bret regretted it and WWE moved on. Eric was 100 percent right on this one.
"That doesn't work for me, brother."
- Bret Hart
Let’s go 10 hours late but let’s go 😂
Shane McMahon couldn't whip cream with an outboard motor, especially a legitimate wrestler like Bret Hart. No buys.
One guy was under contract and one guy was going out the door . I think that’s the difference in the creative control debate between hogan an hart
Bret's creative control clause was SPECIFICALLY for his final 60 days in the company. He didn't have it UNTIL he was "going out the door". Hogan had it for his entire contract length.
Opportunities are hard to get... thanks . Some of us never ever get one. If I was ever allowed on tv I would milk all 15 minutes to the fullest. If u hate it or love it ud remember it lol.
Kenny Omega, MJF, Jon Moxley, Bryan Danielson, Chris Jericho, Darby Allin, Swerve Strickland, Andrade El Idolo, Jay White need to be the 10 guys. And some aren’t even on TV all the time 🤦♂️
Wether or not Bret should have approached the discussion table differently, the fact still is, Bret and Vince (somewhat unwillingly) agreed on a finish for the match in Montreal, then Vince screewed Bret by breaking this agreement. Then, wether or not one thinks Bret was unreasonable going into the match is another discussion. A whole seperate matter. Thirdly, one might agree or disagree with Vince that screewing Bret was justified, but this too is seperate issue. So, the fact stands, Vince screewed Bret.
Reason = Vince and Bret made a deal, then Vince broke the deal and set up a scenario behind Brets back. Another word for this scenario is to con someone, which is synonym to screew someone. Its really that simple folks. They both handled the situation poorly, which is a shame. In a different world, without the screewjob, Vince would have brought Bret back within a couple of years, and everyone would have won. Vince, Bret and all of us, the fans.
Flair showing up on TNT/TBS for the first time since the final Nitro and stepping into a ring with Sting and Schiavone gave off such strong WCW vibes. I don't see Flair going to AEW as being them trying to rehash WWE - Flair spent far more time in NWA/JCP/WCW than he did in WWE. Ric is a WCW legend, as is Sting, while Schiavone became the voice of Nitro and WCW.
Conrad, how would you know if Bret had creative control 26 years ago? Because you read it on the DIRT SHEETS back then??????
I was hoping to hear Eric say something about how Vince basically admitted that wrestling is fake during that interview.
If you were a Crockett heel in the 80s and you didn’t have a gun in your trunk, you were stupid..
Why didn't Bret Hart sue Vince McMahon and Titan Sports for violating his WWF contract?
Because he beat up McMahon.
WOW 83 times in a ROW ERIC BEAT VINCE!! VINCE PUT ERIC OUT OF BUSINESS. VINCE NEEDS A PODCAST CALLED PUT YOU OUT OF BUSINESS
he told the truth from a promoter perspective.
Brett hart never had creative control. Pritchard who was there said that many times. What’s Conrad talking about? This is unacceptable
the only one that’s allowed to break tradition is vince mcmahon everyone knows that
Conrad get your facts straight. Brian Pillman was dead when survivor series took place. How would he go to WCW.
He didn't say he was STILL living, dumb dumb, he said IF he was still around!
I love how no one puts any blame on Vince's little boy toy so yeah he got no blame. Vince was sniffling boy toys little jock respect bu it wwas oj
My boys head and munky, revolutionary guitarists!
What and why does Bischoff have the items covered in the back ?
Hogan killing the crowd at Starrcade 97 was best for business?
Everyone from his mother,did Brett wrong. End of 😢
I highly doubt Bret had creative control.
What's Thompson on about in relation to so many talent connecting with fans? What show is he watching? The ratings are awful. If they were all "connecting" with fans, that would be reflected in the ratings.
It doesn't look like it has been mentioned just yet--or if it has, I didn't see it--but I'm very certain Hogan used his "creative control card" as early as 1994. Of those three matches he had with Flair, Flair was supposed to win the second one.
From my understanding, Bret was not under contract at SS97 anyway.
I am pretty sure Bret didn't want to lose to SHAWN in Canada because of how disrespectful Bret felt he had been in the past, especially when Bret dropped the belt to Shawn and Shawn told him he didn't want to return the favor. Bret Hart is too smart and came from the wrestling old school. I am sure he would have done business with someone else. He has even said he would have gladly dropped it to someone else. It blows me away Conrad doesn't mention this. Eric is so off base here it is kind of sickening. I get he and Bret dislike each other, but to say Bret didn't get screwed is ridiculous because regardless of how anyone feels about why it happened, the fact of the matter is he was lied to. He thought they worked something out and they screwed him. It doesn't matter if Bret was being a baby or whatever. They lied to him period. Also, to say that Shane Mcmahon could beat up Bret Hart almost sounded like a child with a grudge. Like come on practically everyone says that Bret was legitimately tough and most guys wouldn't want to fight him. Even some bigger guys. Bret was a High School wrestling city champion in Calgary and did really well in provincials, but I don't remember if he did nationals. Plus he has all kinds of stories of fighting kids, lots of times protecting his family. They were picked on even in the 60's and 70's for being the promoters kid. Prime Bret Hart in the 80's and 90's wasn't the biggest guy obviously, but from all accounts he could beat a lot of ass. He was a legitimate 220+ and 5'11. Shawn was like 5'11 190, maybe pushing 200. Yes, shane has size but like come on Eric. You triggered me again muckerfother.
If you look at the WHOLE of the sum nobody was more mistreated then Bret as far as how good they were and what they got.
Dude had 6 guys collectively lie to him and got sent off like a jerk in his hometown.
Goes to WCW to restart and Eric had his chosen ones already and they considered him a liability after the concussion.
Everyone really needs to back up on the actual reason why Bret didn't want to drop the title. And it wasn't because it was in Canada, it was Shawn it was always dropping it to Shawn at that time. He couldn't do it i guess he felt like why should i lose my integrity dropping it to that little prick.
One could argue that Hogan was a bigger star than Bret so Hogan deserved it more than Bret.....
Bret did actually shake Shawn Michaels hand when Shawn was cowering and crying in the dressing room.
I agree with Vince that Bret should have dropped the belt but for him to bitch about other people exposing the business is hypocritical.
Vince completely buried Bret here. Vince said that at 52 he could put up a good fight with Bret. So Bret couldn't beat the hell out of Vince in a real fight? Bret was buried.
Bischoff you schmuck, 1997 Bret would've DESTROYED 1997 Shane McMahon!
Cm punk aew is a modern version of this. Somehow Perry has become a guy getting a reaction out of it. Tk is the baby face now. I hope it’s half as successful as this was for wwe
Pro wrestling fan just watch the products and just enjoy it for what it is it's pro wrestling DAM IT
I said this in previous comments and I still standby. My word wrestling has never been exciting after 2001 it has been very mediocre and just plain out boring since WCW went under and Eric Bischoff is always going to blame the AOL Time Warner merger and not take any responsibility for the fall of WCW but in all reality him Hulk Hogan and Kevin Nash had a lot to do with WCW going down the toilet such as giving Hogan, too much political power and letting Kevin Nash become the booker those are some of the reasons for WCW’s demise in 2001