You may already know this, but there is a crypt in Act 3 where you can find a diary. The diary recounts how the crypt's inhabitant encountered Jergal. He mentions how Jergal asked him a single question. "What is the value of a single mortal life?" So yeah
Remember, we're seeing Jergal long long LOOOOOONNG after he's tired of the game. He bas portfolios that made him an ultimate evil... but he'd grown tired, bored, weary, with no with the power and will to challenge him and give his existence meaning... He ironically stripped away the responsibilities that did nothing but blur his vision to the responsibility that truly impassioned him... his duty to record the balance of life and death in the world till the last trumpet sounds.
Larian did a fantastic job with Withers, allowing the players to piece together who he is without outright stating "Hey! Hey, player! Did you know this is Jergal?! This is Jergal!!!"
As a non-DnD player, the name would have held no meaning to me even if he introduced himself as Jergal. However, it was fun piecing it all together while playing. The only thing I never figured out, story wise, was why. Maybe I missed some reading? Perhaps Larian forgot to add that bit themselves? Perhaps it's answered if I play a certain way and it's a rare encounter? no idea.
@@chrisspellman5952he made the dead three gods and they were trying to turn everything into mindflayers who don't have souls. Withers tells you his motivation.
This makes withers talking about how you've not romanced any companion even funnier. An ancient god of death telling you you've got no bitches. Also I just love the idea of the party having Jergal casually chilling out at their camp without anybody having any suspicions of how important he actually is.
He actually made me tear up hahaha, even in a video game where all the characters are designed to like you, i got no bitches. Funny stuff aside, i liked karlach, and i just didnt get enough good boy points with her early on so she never liked me, but gale, laezel and astarion came onto me like a couple of trucks, but i didnt want to play around so i waited until it was too long xD
He is Jergal. I discovered this the other day when I finally had to have a character resurrected. He says "I strike thy name from the archive" and poof, they were back. Jergal's title is the Doomscribe and he oversees the archive of the dead. No one can write or alter the archive except him, not even Kelemvor. That means he's 100% Jergal.
@@poop_storm withers is strange when it comes to the subject of souls and mind flayers, one minute hes telling my mf tav that I still have a soul and im still me then in the epilogue he says mindflayers dont have souls. My headcanon is that like with vampires the soul is still there its just been cutoff from the divine and so to a gods eyes its gone or maybe the elderbrain or dead 3 siphons the souls away from the newborn mindflayers when it takes control of them which would help explain discrepancies we see in game since our mindflayer tav or karlach mf or Orpheus mf are unique in how we were changed. I mean in game its pretty clear mindflayers do have souls considering withers can resurrect a dead mf tav which by his own admission requires a soul (you see what its like when he resurrects someone without a soul when you use the hirelings) you can still use ki while a mindflayer, you can still astral project and so can the emperor, theres the whole aberrant mind sorcerer which again points to mf's having a soul of at least some sort. The ambiguity is kind of nice really for a game like bg3. My personal headcanon is that my mf tav is the same tav as before, I couldn't stomach the idea of karlach giving up and turning into one when I was still hoping to try and fix her heart, I wasnt sure if i could trust the emperor enough to destroy the elderbrain or be strong enough to, Orpheus i honestly assumed was going to be a mega racist so I didn't even want to attempt that path, so the only option left was my tav to sacrifice himself for the greater good of the city and people rather than pushing the responsibility onto someone else because that's what an actual hero does. I was so happy to learn I could go to avernus with karlach and mitigate the risks of my condition while simultaneously protecting someone my tav had grown to love. Id like to think if karlachs heart is fixed and we can leave avernus she might stay with illithitav me and we'll just constantly journey around looking for places and people who need saving because being close to danger and away from people is probably the safest option for everyone involved, hoping to eventually stumble onto a cure potentially or dying in service to helping people, continuing to be the tav he was and tried to be.
The game files elaborate on his backstory regarding the characters as well, he’s supposedly been tasked to assist the PCs by Helm as some sort of penance
The fact he’s Jergal makes the redeemed dark urge scene so fucking good. Even after making the Dead Three gods, he’s still strong enough to resurrect the Dark Urge, the literal purest Bhaalspawn to ever exist, as his Chosen in the middle of Bhaal’s literal temple while destroying the part of their soul that was once controlled by Bhaal.
Technically, it wasn't Withers that destroyed the Bhaal side of Durge. If you reject Bhaal, Bhaal states he'll take back his blood, effectively killing you. In Bhaal's mind, you should have no chance of coming back; you're gone. Withers, however, just revive you and explains; if you ask, that the part of you that was killed was only the part Bhaal knew. That, by defying your urge (or at least actively trying to defy it), another part of you grew, one that Bhaal didn't get rid of. That's what Withers brought back, even confirming that the Urge, which is directly tied to the Bhaal side of you, is now gone because Bhaal took it back.
the only reason I would disagree is that the one thing the GM does most of the time - at least in all the D&D games I played - is narrate and check your dice rolls. and that's a random female voice in BG3
If you play as a cleric of Kelemvor you get unique dialogue when you meet Withers. Tav remarks that he feels familiar and asks if they know him. Withers responds "Yes, but I imagine it is not the way thee believe, thou who walk with death, child of Kelemvor. That is enough for an understanding between us." After the death of Myrkul, Bane, and Bhaal, Jergal became the steward of Kelemvor, who he worked well with. The attention to the most minor details in this game is unreal.
I'm playing a Cleric of Kelemvor because it's the closest way to play Grave Domain (my beloved) without mods. And it's definitely got some fun dialogue options.
He is the scribe of the damned, the god who was bored of being a god. When 3 mortals by the name of Myrkul, Bane and Bhaal made a temporary alliance to challenge him in order to take his power the old god by the name of Jergal didn't feel like fighting the 3. He didn't feel attached to this power and decided to relinquish it to the 3. Jergal was such a powerful god that even by dividing his domains in 3 each single god was resulting was still a greater god. He is a very fitting presence in the theme of the game sine he was a god in the time of Netheril and it also make sense that the dead 3 would go after the crown since it is a relic of their time.
"I am a Scribe, a Seneshall - an Archivist. And from now on thy advocate, be it here as in the City of Dead." ~Withers citing his titles when reviving the Dark Urge character after refusing Bhaal. That's pretty much saying he is Jergal in all but the name, for all of that are Jergal's titles. Scribe of the Dead, Seneshall of Kelemvor and Archivist of the Passing Souls.
There's also the amulet of lost voices that you find in the same room as Withers who's description read "The dead hold no secrets from Jergal's Scriveners of Doom"
Interesting side note for Withers, he won’t change your class from Paladin if you have broken your oath. He basically tells you that he won’t do it until you have regained your oath and restored balance.
I think an under-appreciated aspect about Withers being Jergal is the name he chose: Withers... as in the place where the neck meets the back on an animal, like a drafthorse, the part of the animal that bears the load. It is also the most objective place to measure a quadruped as that is the part of their body that moves the least. The term "wither" is also old english, as Jergal likes to speak, meaning "to weather" as in to weather a storm, to resist and withstand a powerful force or dangerous event. There is also the obvious visual pun, as Jergal adopts the form of a withered body, as well. A name that works so well on so many levels and betrays Jergal's sense of humor.
This is the kind of thing that really makes BG3 a fantastic game. The team did MASTERFUL work with the storylines here with Withers, and across the board more generally. They've accounted for branches in the story and spent time fleshing out little used odds and ends that make this game supremely memorable (Astarion after dying when the Creche is destroyed and resurrected by Withers is a great scene with pretty stringent requirements for actually seeing it). Even the random books are worth combing through (including documentation of a miniature giant space hamster). This game is so much more than just wandering around killing enemies for XP. I absolutely love it.
Idk if anyone else has mentioned it yet but if you’re a cleric of Kelemvor you can pass a check with Withers to ask if he’s a chosen of Kelemvor. He’ll say he’s not but that Kelemvor was wise to have brought the player character into his fold, then says that’s all he will discuss on the matter
I love how he’s such a creepy undead supernatural being who speaks in riddle and they give him such a silly name like Withers, they never even have him telling them his name they just all call him withers
I mean, if you pass a check just as you're about to open his tomb in the beginning they mention the statue is Jergal, not really a hard to put together blatant trail of clues to who he is, they repeatedly point at it through the game.
I think they just said "Scribe of the Dead" in my first playthrough. Don't remember 100% though. But nevertheless, I think a lot of players might never have heard about either "Jergal" or "The Scrieb of the dead" before, DnD lore it not such a widespread topic :)
@@dave_marian "After the party has slain a group of undead scholars, the judge of death--Jergal--climbs out of his sarcophagus to greet them. He has been locked inside for years by the god Helm to atone for his part in raising the Dead Three, wicked gods who are now plotting to conquer the realms. Jergal is emotionless and excessively formal, both resigned to his fate and that of others. He is here to assist the party because that is his divine oath, not out of any true desire to act. Players can attempt to goad or attack him, but to minimal effect, as he is functionally immortal. His only goal was to see their faces, so he can find them at camp later to offer further assistance."
I always liked Jergal. I'm not even that knowledgeable about the Forgotten Realms, but when I read about him, I thought he was cool. After having seen Withers, though? He's easily my favorite Forgotten Realms deity. I love his dry ambivalence and his concern with matters of life, death, and souls. When I get a chance to play, and when the 2024 version of the Necromancer comes out, I am absolutely making one who follows Jergal.
@@dave_marian yeah, in pen and paper, but I am the forever DM of my group and we haven't even played in months either. On a related note, I've been working on a setup for running a "roguelike" campaign. I have the dungeon/encounter generators down, but I'm still working on simple rules for automating monster actions. Because then we could at least do dungeon crawls with the Shared Campaign rules and not necessarily need a DM (so I can play more often).
I like what they did with Withers. Just as something a bit extra, his name is likely a reference to a character from Tomb of Annihilation. Withers was an undead servant for the arch lich Acererak. He worked maintaining all of the traps in the temple of the nine gods. I believe he was a wight.
Honestly, I came to BG3 almost fresh off of playing a Tomb of Anihilation campaign for the first time, so my first impression of the BG3 character was "Wait.... could it...? No way this is the scrawny minion guy we crush-tackled over an office desk in that dungeon. Did our DM change this character that much for our campaign? I like this Withers way better! Acererak knows how to hire!" And literally just assumed he was some nondescript heirophant lich of Jergal's who either used to or would at some point work with Acererak.
One interesting point to make, when you ask Withers at camp why is he helping you he says “believe me it’s not by choice.” So that makes the assumption that he is following a command from a superior to help you? Kelemvor perhaps?
"After the party has slain a group of undead scholars, the judge of death--Jergal--climbs out of his sarcophagus to greet them. He has been locked inside for years by the god Helm to atone for his part in raising the Dead Three, wicked gods who are now plotting to conquer the realms. Jergal is emotionless and excessively formal, both resigned to his fate and that of others. He is here to assist the party because that is his divine oath, not out of any true desire to act. Players can attempt to goad or attack him, but to minimal effect, as he is functionally immortal. His only goal was to see their faces, so he can find them at camp later to offer further assistance."
Him raising the dead three seemed like a decision made on a whim. Like, "hmm I wonder what would happen if I bestowed powers to the individuals afflicted with the very themes they would now rule over?"
he actually has a long term (like, thousands of millenia long) plan, that involved raising the three and stepping aside. Them teaming up with mind flayers was a wrench in his plan, and the second sundering was part of it, there's some like, deep lore around Jergal. Guy isn't as ancient as Selune or Shar, but he's got wheels within wheels@@babadukk
But none of that is lore accurate to the Realms. Jergal is the scribe of the dead. He hasn't been locked away, he is Kelemvor's scribe/assistant. And he isn't the judge of death, he isn't even a god anymore in the Realms as he gave his divinity up (the Dead Three technically aren't gods anymore either in 5th edition).
This is actually quite interesting. Sometimes I would joke that Withers was meant to be the secret DM's player character/avatar considering he's unkillable, regularly makes mention of documenting and the Wheel of Fate, shows up and stays at your camp regardless of how you treat him, and how well he manages hirelings, respecs, and resurrections (which even have their limits)
Hey look its the theory i had without knowing tooo much about the faerun pantheon. It just lines up too well. Also, if you interact with him as cleric, you can make a check to notice something divine about him, which was my "confirmation"
I was quite sure he was some kind of god or avatar, but with D&D having more Death Gods than some people have underwear in their drawers, I thought it would be fun to get a bit further into it ;)
@@dave_marianMy take is that he is some entity working under Jergal orders, not Jergal himself. That's based on his initial dialog that made clear he is working under the instructions of someone else. In other words, Wither seems to be just a higher ranked version of the same order as the rest of the skeletons found in the area. The final cutscene points to his motivations; he seem to be there specifically to screw with the plans of the Dead Three, and likely to prevent their ascension. Other parts of the lore in the game point to the same conlcusion; the gods are scared of the Netherese brain, but Ao don't let them interfere directly. And is not likely that Jergal would abandon his sworn duty just to lend you a hand; if he wanted to interfere directly, he could handle the Netherese brain by himself or using an avatar like the dead three did. Of course, in the end we don't know for sure; it could be Jergal acting under Ao's orders... is just that's highly unlikely. And there is no ** way that the other god's wouldn't notice if that was the case.
@@Imman1s No, he is explicitly Jergal. Any "servant" would have been obliterated by one of the Dead Three for his "blasphemy" against them in the final scene.
Your companions mentions that the statue in the beginning crypt you find Withers in is Jergal - if they pass a passive religion check (perhaps you as the player too). For my runs it has always been Shadowheart that says it. So I have always had it in my head from the start! It was good to see how the character evolved and the final scenes with him in. SPOILER FOR THE EMPEROR: . . . . I also find it interesting that at one point in the game Withers outrights states that mindflayers do not possess souls. However when if he meets The Emperor at the end, he says he recognises them. A big hint perhaps that The Emperor is indeed a very different type of Illithid, and potentially retains at least part of the soul of Balduran within.
Playing Asmodeus' advocate here, they don't have souls as he understand them. I can't remember the word he used but I think he or another character mentioned they didn't have apothic(?) souls, as in they don't show up in the outer planes upon death but go... somewhere else. I think it warrants an examination of what a soul really is as well as Wither's own motivations. I recommend looking at Ed Greenwood's Lord of The End of Everything which documents Jergal's history and origins
@@cameronpearce5943he was using apostolic as an adjective, he means illithids are incapable of the worship required to empower deities, they are still soulless by his standards
Wither's mentions there is a "He" that predicted our arrival, and that it's his duty to aid us in keeping balance and bringing about the plans of the Dead Three. IMO if he isn't Jergal himself, he is likely a Chosen/Champion of him. He's also helpful towards Arabella, giving her guidance along her own journey.
He most definitely is not a chosen of Jergal. On my play through I was a cleric of Jergal and passed some checks where I asked Withers if he is his avatar and the response was that he is not.
I suspected who he was quite early in the game. Especially since he can causally cast true resurrection and seemingly without the costly spell components(I mean he’s only charging you 200 gold for a 9th lvl spell?). I greatly amuses me there is just a god hanging out in my camp the whole adventure, watching me get up to stupid antics. He even comments on your love or lack of love life like it’s any of his business lol.
I’m understand that he charges money for game balance reasons, but it’s funny to speculate on what he actually needs money for. Maybe he has some expensive wines stashed away somewhere.
Jergal/Withers will always stick around, because he's one of the only deities who can spend more than 30 seconds without pushing the world into another apocalypse Ao has to clean up, and the over-deity *really* appreciates that.
One correction, Cyric was the god of death after myrkul. Cyric lost a war in the city of the dead as he looked for kelemvors soul. Which was hidden by the god mask. Which allowed kelemvor to ascend and take over.
Yeah but going into Cyric would be whole other clusterf""". And at the point in time the game plays at, Cyric has nothing to do with death anymore. Kelemvor, Jergal and Myrkul still do.
In act 3 if you break into the mausoleum in the graveyard you'll find a journal saying: I was still a supplicant when I came face to face with him: Masked in gold, his skin fine and worn as parchment. Jergal, the death-keeper, the End of Everything. I asked what he needed of me. He asked a simple question: "What is the worth of a single mortal's life?" I knew not how to respond, and said as such. He seemed nonplussed; neither disappointed nor pleased. I fell to my knees in respect for his awesome power. This garnered no reaction. There I stayed, trembling with an emotion I could not name. And when I stood again, the Final Scribe was gone.
My guess is that withers isn't the big man himself but instead an avatar, as gale says "Direct divine interventions oftentimes doesn't work out" which is why Mystra sends gale to do stuff, although I'm some random guy not anyone who spent time on a theory
For a while it was quite common that gods in general could not interact with the material plane directly, which is why they have priests and avatars. But I am not sure if this is still the same after the time of trouble and the second sundering.
Withers is basically a DMPC given form. He is the devs, making sure that the story of each character is seen to completion. And to ensure that, they created an extraplanar being to manipulate the ties of fate in your favor. Jergal just happens to be a convenient part of the lore that facilitates this. Someone who can fudge the records in your favor.
You don't have to guess anymore it's actually in the game, the lore flair for Withers was supposed to be in a text somewhere in game, but it's not shown for some reason (well I believe the reason being so that the community would discuss this about him), but someone has datamined it and Withers is Jergal. Who was tasked by Helm, coming from Ao, as a punishment for raising the Dead Three.
Where are people getting the Helm thing from? Is it in game? Cause it's not in the wiki or dnd lore; Withers is just an avatar of Jergal, Jergal is an exarch who serves whoever is the Lord of the Dead, so in this case, he serves Kelemvor. Just like he served Cyric before him, and Myrkul before him.
@kaygirl10101 As a cleric you in general can check in on Withers in Camp and have an option once where you determain that what type of creature he is and it usually says, if succeded, that he has a Divine Aspect to him, and as a Kelemvori Cleric you have a unique response to after that check is succeded where you ask Withers if he is a Avatar of Kelemvor. I don't remember quite what he directly said as i did quit a while ago, but he says something allong the lines of: "No. But close, your master thaugth you well." Thats the only type of responce which he doesn't intierly dismiss, which is a huge hint right at the start of the game what he might be/what his role in the game may suggest for anybody who knows the lore at least a bit surrounding gods and such. I found it very cool, that the Deathgod Cleric is the only Cleric that gets that response. I sadly didn't continue playing that save, so i don't know if their are more instences where unique Dialoge between a Kelemvori and Withers happens, wanted to check if a Kelemvori Dark Urge maybe had even uniquer dialog options.
@@fis_trashwitch Neat, thank you for the response. Dnd has such deep lore. Honestly, I disregard it and play homebrew, but it's interesting how it morphs over the versions.
@@kaygirl10101 Yes, its really intressting how it continues its lore over the versions. I play mostly homebrew to but often include the dnd lore as part of background lore of a diffrent material plane.
Dnd Lore facts for anyone that cares who is the god of what in the story that involves the god of death pantheon: After shanangins explained in the video that occurred how the 3 deaths came to be they split apart they were each "fought" (or at least hunted) individually by a group of heroes who among them had the mercenary Kelemvor, the mage Midnight and a priest named Adon, who would be later joined by a deserter solider named Cyric. During their fight with Myrkul, Cyric betrayed them and became the new god of death as he was always a bit of a bitch. To keep it brief they only fought Myrkul as Bane betrayed Myrkul just so he would be left alone and Bhall wasn't really in the picture. Long story even shorter, the god of thieves and plans named Mask saved Kelemvor's soul to fight Cyric eventually, Kelemvor beat Cyric, all the ghost Cyric enslaved voted for Kelemvor to be the new god of death. What happened to the other people: Cyric after losing the god of death title still had a lot of worshipers and became known as the god of Betrayal Myrkul the god of Necromancy Bane the god of Tyranny Bhall the god of Murder Midnight turned out she had a piece of the god of magic inside of her so she replaced the "dead" god of magic and became Mystra the new goddess of magic Adon died a horrible death long before any of his friends became gods by the hands of Cyric who tortured him for 10 years And to anyone wondering yeah Withers is Jergal. There is a book in act 3 that talks about how Jergal talked to someone in a very similar way to you and a certain character origin story confirms that
I left out Cyric because I thought it was quite obvious that after the second sundering he is nowhere near the death portfolio compared to Kelemvor or Jergal. And talking about him would warrant it's own video. One day maybe :)
One more nice clue is that when he revives your characters he states that he is "erasing them from the archives", or something similar. So the way he revives us is by erasing our names from the list of people that died
I remember this one time I was exploring a crypt and this weird mummy guy popped up and he said "what is the worth of a single mortal's life?" I was super confused by this and more than a little freaked out, so I just stammered out the first thing that came to mind. "I don't know, maybe like... 200 gold?" And he was just like, "yeah, that's what I was thinking. You know, I don't want to undervalue my own labor, but I'm just starting out in this business and I really want to get that word of mouth out there, y'know?" And I just nodded along even though I still had no idea what he was talking about. Something about being a recent retiree and doing this to supplement his pension, I think? Anyway, he kept talking for another couple minutes and eventually we went our separate ways. I haven't thought about him in years. I hope he's doing alright. Seemed like a chill guy.
I think many people who play BG3 don't know all that much about DnD lore, since even if you have played DnD before not all DMs use the "regular" background stories fully, or at all. I played almost exclusively homebrew for example.
The part where he asks "What is the value of a single mortal life?" is a reference to Torment: Tides of Numenéra, where "What does one life matter?" is the underlying question of the story. The reason it's in the game is probably because Colin McComb (and possibly other people) worked on both games.
Me and my dnd group played BG3 together and as soon as we found withers my very first instinct was "Oh that's 100% Jergal". Everyone was like "How can you tell?" and I was like. I just could.
My first instinct as well. I played a Doomscribe, a specialty priest of Jergal in AD&D 2e, at most a couple years ago, and I could recognize the symbols and signs.
I think if you have an experienced dnd group who uses actual dnd lore for their world it might make sense. I remember I had a bit of a harder time since I played primarily homebrew with custom lore.
Honestly, I suspected he must have been some sort of high cleric/priest for Jergal, right up until that last scene where he's talking to the paintings of the dead 3. Then it clicked that he WAS Jergal.
I can't remember how I got to it, but my Good Dark Urge Tav at one point asks Withers of being a chosen of a different god, and Withers replied with no wanting to talk about it anymore.
Elder Scrolls Online has a similar thing in terms of being "Dead" while being "Alive" Your soul is basically held hostage during the Main story questline.
Going into this game I didn't know much about the lore of the forgotten realms gods aside from the vague outline of the spellplague and Jergal's deal with the dead three. I wasn't expecting the dead three to be involved at all, but as I unraveled the identity of Withers I loved it more and more. Jergal has been my favorite god in Faerun since I first heard of the dead three.
That's nice but what does he do with all the gold? Also damn, 200 gold doesn't sound like much in the lore considering that runaway groom from the Zhentarim hideout asks you 100 to get smashed, so if anybody pays Withers 200 gold he'll just say "alright thanks now here's your dead, alive"?
I understand the point in this video, and it gives a really good in depth breakdown on Withers as a character, but I love how you can easily find your answer by looking through the game files in about 3 seconds. His model name is literally Jergal lmfao
If you pass a religon check in the temple near the nautiloid, your character will explicitely make the observation that the temple (that Withers resides in) is dedicated to Jergal.
I hope one day we get Larian Studios & Fromsoft to collab and make an Elden Ring/Soulsborne style game set in D&D. With Larian's Writing & Fromsoft's Gameplay & Combat would be an automatic 10/10 Game of the Year.
would be interesting, but you would also need WotC for the DnD IP. Not sure if they are that much into collaborations. Not too sure about FromSoft either :D
I heard of Jergal through reading the journal but wasn’t really paying attention to Withers aside from the crypt which he admitted was his from Act 1, I guess this twist doesn’t really surprise me but it’s interesting regardless
I already knew this! In my second run read all the books in the crypt (I was playing a Sage) and they mention Jergal and the statue where you find Whiters is also Jergal, add to that the book in the small room! There are so many hints! I admit that in my first run I didn't know because I never went to the crypt and Whiters appeared one day in my camp!
I mean technically every god can have a paladin. Technically paladins don't even have to be sworn to a deity, they could also take their oath towards a concept or an idea.
@@dave_marian Yup lol. If a person believes with all their heart that eating mushrooms and dancing naked in the woods is a worthy cause to devote their life too, then they become a Paladin of Eating Mushrooms and Dancing Naked in the Woods.
I don't know anything about D&D lore, but there's a book that mentions Bane, Bhaal and Myrkul and their confrontation with Jergal and it came to mind in the last parts of the game thinking about Withers, but after the epilogue party I just had to know for sure, such an intriguing character!
I haven't seen it explicitly mentioned, but when you step near the statue of Jergal in the crypt on the shore in act 1, if someone passes a religion check, they will say that they know the statue to be Jergal, Scribe of the Dead.
Their are two big evidences that withers is Jergal. One is a diary in which someones meets Jergal and he asks "What is the value of a single mortal life?" And one where someone meets Jergal and describes withers
I initially thoughtWithers was the Chosen of Jergal, because of his direct interference in the mortal world, which would be forbidden for by Ao. But then he did give his power away to the dead three, so perhaps Jergal, having given his power to the dead three, is indeed the Chosen of Kelemvor.
Yeah and if your skill in religion is high enough in BG 3 the statue in the crypt in the game is Jergal. If you play Paladin there's unique dialogue for your character about Withers as well.
You may already know this, but there is a crypt in Act 3 where you can find a diary. The diary recounts how the crypt's inhabitant encountered Jergal. He mentions how Jergal asked him a single question. "What is the value of a single mortal life?" So yeah
There is also a statue of Jergal right in front of the room with his sacrophagus.
👍
Nothing……. Everything
Guess he didn’t know lmao I thought he would mention it
Where is that sir i want to go to that place too
'extremely powerful and ancient god who just kind of quietly chills out with mortals' is one of my favourite fantasy tropes
D&D gods generally seem quite approachable XD
Remember, we're seeing Jergal long long LOOOOOONNG after he's tired of the game. He bas portfolios that made him an ultimate evil... but he'd grown tired, bored, weary, with no with the power and will to challenge him and give his existence meaning... He ironically stripped away the responsibilities that did nothing but blur his vision to the responsibility that truly impassioned him... his duty to record the balance of life and death in the world till the last trumpet sounds.
being immortal really can make you get bored after awhile and humanity is basically just drama tv.
Wasn't by choice. He was forced to fix his fuck up.
Larian did a fantastic job with Withers, allowing the players to piece together who he is without outright stating "Hey! Hey, player! Did you know this is Jergal?! This is Jergal!!!"
Agreed! Great character building.
As a non-DnD player, the name would have held no meaning to me even if he introduced himself as Jergal. However, it was fun piecing it all together while playing. The only thing I never figured out, story wise, was why. Maybe I missed some reading? Perhaps Larian forgot to add that bit themselves? Perhaps it's answered if I play a certain way and it's a rare encounter? no idea.
@@chrisspellman5952he made the dead three gods and they were trying to turn everything into mindflayers who don't have souls. Withers tells you his motivation.
@@martinwest7250 oh, sorry. I meant why he was going by a different name.
@@chrisspellman5952 ah my bad
This makes withers talking about how you've not romanced any companion even funnier. An ancient god of death telling you you've got no bitches.
Also I just love the idea of the party having Jergal casually chilling out at their camp without anybody having any suspicions of how important he actually is.
Yeah, the idea of this being a weird kind of smalltalk is quite entertaining :D
He actually made me tear up hahaha, even in a video game where all the characters are designed to like you, i got no bitches. Funny stuff aside, i liked karlach, and i just didnt get enough good boy points with her early on so she never liked me, but gale, laezel and astarion came onto me like a couple of trucks, but i didnt want to play around so i waited until it was too long xD
Bro makes fun of you either way, he either tells you you have no bitches or he tells you that you caught some ass
He is Jergal. I discovered this the other day when I finally had to have a character resurrected. He says "I strike thy name from the archive" and poof, they were back. Jergal's title is the Doomscribe and he oversees the archive of the dead. No one can write or alter the archive except him, not even Kelemvor. That means he's 100% Jergal.
Also the concept art gives it away
This would explain why he gets so pissed at the Dead Three for erasing people’s souls by turning them into mind flayers
@@poop_storm withers is strange when it comes to the subject of souls and mind flayers, one minute hes telling my mf tav that I still have a soul and im still me then in the epilogue he says mindflayers dont have souls. My headcanon is that like with vampires the soul is still there its just been cutoff from the divine and so to a gods eyes its gone or maybe the elderbrain or dead 3 siphons the souls away from the newborn mindflayers when it takes control of them which would help explain discrepancies we see in game since our mindflayer tav or karlach mf or Orpheus mf are unique in how we were changed.
I mean in game its pretty clear mindflayers do have souls considering withers can resurrect a dead mf tav which by his own admission requires a soul (you see what its like when he resurrects someone without a soul when you use the hirelings) you can still use ki while a mindflayer, you can still astral project and so can the emperor, theres the whole aberrant mind sorcerer which again points to mf's having a soul of at least some sort.
The ambiguity is kind of nice really for a game like bg3. My personal headcanon is that my mf tav is the same tav as before, I couldn't stomach the idea of karlach giving up and turning into one when I was still hoping to try and fix her heart, I wasnt sure if i could trust the emperor enough to destroy the elderbrain or be strong enough to, Orpheus i honestly assumed was going to be a mega racist so I didn't even want to attempt that path, so the only option left was my tav to sacrifice himself for the greater good of the city and people rather than pushing the responsibility onto someone else because that's what an actual hero does.
I was so happy to learn I could go to avernus with karlach and mitigate the risks of my condition while simultaneously protecting someone my tav had grown to love. Id like to think if karlachs heart is fixed and we can leave avernus she might stay with illithitav me and we'll just constantly journey around looking for places and people who need saving because being close to danger and away from people is probably the safest option for everyone involved, hoping to eventually stumble onto a cure potentially or dying in service to helping people, continuing to be the tav he was and tried to be.
The game files elaborate on his backstory regarding the characters as well, he’s supposedly been tasked to assist the PCs by Helm as some sort of penance
Neeeeeeeerds!
My favorite Withers moment is when he low-key mocks you for not being in a romantic relationship with anyone.
Some love it some hate it, haha
really weird when he asks that to your hireling who he resurrected partially himself and added his manerism when talk.
The fact he’s Jergal makes the redeemed dark urge scene so fucking good. Even after making the Dead Three gods, he’s still strong enough to resurrect the Dark Urge, the literal purest Bhaalspawn to ever exist, as his Chosen in the middle of Bhaal’s literal temple while destroying the part of their soul that was once controlled by Bhaal.
He's like One Punch Man. Insanely strong but not very motivated.
Technically, it wasn't Withers that destroyed the Bhaal side of Durge.
If you reject Bhaal, Bhaal states he'll take back his blood, effectively killing you.
In Bhaal's mind, you should have no chance of coming back; you're gone.
Withers, however, just revive you and explains; if you ask, that the part of you that was killed was only the part Bhaal knew.
That, by defying your urge (or at least actively trying to defy it), another part of you grew, one that Bhaal didn't get rid of.
That's what Withers brought back, even confirming that the Urge, which is directly tied to the Bhaal side of you, is now gone because Bhaal took it back.
“What is the Value of a single mortal life?” 200 DOLLARYDOOS?!
Normally its a diamond that's like 10000 or something.
The best description to this guy is
The Game master
He can change your class,use true resurrection and judges you if you don't get a romance
the only reason I would disagree is that the one thing the GM does most of the time - at least in all the D&D games I played - is narrate and check your dice rolls. and that's a random female voice in BG3
If you play as a cleric of Kelemvor you get unique dialogue when you meet Withers. Tav remarks that he feels familiar and asks if they know him. Withers responds "Yes, but I imagine it is not the way thee believe, thou who walk with death, child of Kelemvor. That is enough for an understanding between us."
After the death of Myrkul, Bane, and Bhaal, Jergal became the steward of Kelemvor, who he worked well with. The attention to the most minor details in this game is unreal.
:)
I'm playing a Cleric of Kelemvor because it's the closest way to play Grave Domain (my beloved) without mods. And it's definitely got some fun dialogue options.
There are a TON of really cool Cleric of Kelemvor Dialogs that other Clerics don't get. Mainly regarding NPCs mourning loss of loved ones.
He is the scribe of the damned, the god who was bored of being a god. When 3 mortals by the name of Myrkul, Bane and Bhaal made a temporary alliance to challenge him in order to take his power the old god by the name of Jergal didn't feel like fighting the 3. He didn't feel attached to this power and decided to relinquish it to the 3. Jergal was such a powerful god that even by dividing his domains in 3 each single god was resulting was still a greater god. He is a very fitting presence in the theme of the game sine he was a god in the time of Netheril and it also make sense that the dead 3 would go after the crown since it is a relic of their time.
I too think it was a good and reasonable choice!
Myrkul, Bane and Bhaal.
The ??, the asshole and the monster.
"I am a Scribe, a Seneshall - an Archivist. And from now on thy advocate, be it here as in the City of Dead."
~Withers citing his titles when reviving the Dark Urge character after refusing Bhaal.
That's pretty much saying he is Jergal in all but the name, for all of that are Jergal's titles. Scribe of the Dead, Seneshall of Kelemvor and Archivist of the Passing Souls.
There is a lot of hints all over the game!
There's also the amulet of lost voices that you find in the same room as Withers who's description read "The dead hold no secrets from Jergal's Scriveners of Doom"
;)
Interesting side note for Withers, he won’t change your class from Paladin if you have broken your oath. He basically tells you that he won’t do it until you have regained your oath and restored balance.
So essentially you need to pay back your debt first.
Even a death god respects the power of oaths
Also a good way to don't let people cheat their 10k gold debt with just a cheap 100 G respec
I think an under-appreciated aspect about Withers being Jergal is the name he chose: Withers... as in the place where the neck meets the back on an animal, like a drafthorse, the part of the animal that bears the load. It is also the most objective place to measure a quadruped as that is the part of their body that moves the least. The term "wither" is also old english, as Jergal likes to speak, meaning "to weather" as in to weather a storm, to resist and withstand a powerful force or dangerous event. There is also the obvious visual pun, as Jergal adopts the form of a withered body, as well. A name that works so well on so many levels and betrays Jergal's sense of humor.
Interesting thought! ;)
This is the kind of thing that really makes BG3 a fantastic game. The team did MASTERFUL work with the storylines here with Withers, and across the board more generally. They've accounted for branches in the story and spent time fleshing out little used odds and ends that make this game supremely memorable (Astarion after dying when the Creche is destroyed and resurrected by Withers is a great scene with pretty stringent requirements for actually seeing it). Even the random books are worth combing through (including documentation of a miniature giant space hamster). This game is so much more than just wandering around killing enemies for XP. I absolutely love it.
Second that! It's a great game and I love what they did with the whole DnD ideas and culture.
Idk if anyone else has mentioned it yet but if you’re a cleric of Kelemvor you can pass a check with Withers to ask if he’s a chosen of Kelemvor. He’ll say he’s not but that Kelemvor was wise to have brought the player character into his fold, then says that’s all he will discuss on the matter
I've read it in the comments, but haven't tried it myself! That's one for BG3... So many possible paths.
@@dave_marian After passing this check you may comment the way he speaks is as if he knows Kelemvor personally.
Gotta love Jergal. Was amazing when you find him, I was stoked as all hell. Was glad he even got to help a dark urge run that's good.
Yeah, he is definitely the most interesting character in the game :)
I love how he’s such a creepy undead supernatural being who speaks in riddle and they give him such a silly name like Withers, they never even have him telling them his name they just all call him withers
Didn't really like it in the beginning either but I got used to it.
@@dave_marianngl with how chill he is, old man withers fit.
I mean, if you pass a check just as you're about to open his tomb in the beginning they mention the statue is Jergal, not really a hard to put together blatant trail of clues to who he is, they repeatedly point at it through the game.
I think they just said "Scribe of the Dead" in my first playthrough. Don't remember 100% though. But nevertheless, I think a lot of players might never have heard about either "Jergal" or "The Scrieb of the dead" before, DnD lore it not such a widespread topic :)
@@dave_marian "After the party has slain a group of undead scholars, the judge of death--Jergal--climbs out of his sarcophagus to greet them. He has been locked inside for years by the god Helm to atone for his part in raising the Dead Three, wicked gods who are now plotting to conquer the realms. Jergal is emotionless and excessively formal, both resigned to his fate and that of others. He is here to assist the party because that is his divine oath, not out of any true desire to act. Players can attempt to goad or attack him, but to minimal effect, as he is functionally immortal. His only goal was to see their faces, so he can find them at camp later to offer further assistance."
The speak with dead amulet you find in the tomb where withers is also mentions Jergel as well.
I always liked Jergal. I'm not even that knowledgeable about the Forgotten Realms, but when I read about him, I thought he was cool. After having seen Withers, though? He's easily my favorite Forgotten Realms deity. I love his dry ambivalence and his concern with matters of life, death, and souls.
When I get a chance to play, and when the 2024 version of the Necromancer comes out, I am absolutely making one who follows Jergal.
You mean in Pen and Paper? If you have a campaign that features this pantheon go for it!
@@dave_marian yeah, in pen and paper, but I am the forever DM of my group and we haven't even played in months either.
On a related note, I've been working on a setup for running a "roguelike" campaign. I have the dungeon/encounter generators down, but I'm still working on simple rules for automating monster actions. Because then we could at least do dungeon crawls with the Shared Campaign rules and not necessarily need a DM (so I can play more often).
I like what they did with Withers.
Just as something a bit extra, his name is likely a reference to a character from Tomb of Annihilation. Withers was an undead servant for the arch lich Acererak. He worked maintaining all of the traps in the temple of the nine gods. I believe he was a wight.
Cool! Nice tidbit to know, thank you!
Honestly, I came to BG3 almost fresh off of playing a Tomb of Anihilation campaign for the first time, so my first impression of the BG3 character was "Wait.... could it...? No way this is the scrawny minion guy we crush-tackled over an office desk in that dungeon. Did our DM change this character that much for our campaign? I like this Withers way better! Acererak knows how to hire!"
And literally just assumed he was some nondescript heirophant lich of Jergal's who either used to or would at some point work with Acererak.
there is even book in the crypt of Baldurs gate describing Jergal and the description is very simular to Withers
👍
One interesting point to make, when you ask Withers at camp why is he helping you he says “believe me it’s not by choice.” So that makes the assumption that he is following a command from a superior to help you? Kelemvor perhaps?
Or just the "luminous being" -> Dungeon Master -> Larian
It's Helm. Game files say that Helm imprisoned him and ordered him to help clean up his mess.
"After the party has slain a group of undead scholars, the judge of death--Jergal--climbs out of his sarcophagus to greet them. He has been locked inside for years by the god Helm to atone for his part in raising the Dead Three, wicked gods who are now plotting to conquer the realms. Jergal is emotionless and excessively formal, both resigned to his fate and that of others. He is here to assist the party because that is his divine oath, not out of any true desire to act. Players can attempt to goad or attack him, but to minimal effect, as he is functionally immortal. His only goal was to see their faces, so he can find them at camp later to offer further assistance."
👍
Him raising the dead three seemed like a decision made on a whim. Like, "hmm I wonder what would happen if I bestowed powers to the individuals afflicted with the very themes they would now rule over?"
he actually has a long term (like, thousands of millenia long) plan, that involved raising the three and stepping aside. Them teaming up with mind flayers was a wrench in his plan, and the second sundering was part of it, there's some like, deep lore around Jergal. Guy isn't as ancient as Selune or Shar, but he's got wheels within wheels@@babadukk
@@davidace7514 appreciate the additional info!
But none of that is lore accurate to the Realms. Jergal is the scribe of the dead. He hasn't been locked away, he is Kelemvor's scribe/assistant. And he isn't the judge of death, he isn't even a god anymore in the Realms as he gave his divinity up (the Dead Three technically aren't gods anymore either in 5th edition).
This is actually quite interesting. Sometimes I would joke that Withers was meant to be the secret DM's player character/avatar considering he's unkillable, regularly makes mention of documenting and the Wheel of Fate, shows up and stays at your camp regardless of how you treat him, and how well he manages hirelings, respecs, and resurrections (which even have their limits)
Hey look its the theory i had without knowing tooo much about the faerun pantheon. It just lines up too well. Also, if you interact with him as cleric, you can make a check to notice something divine about him, which was my "confirmation"
I was quite sure he was some kind of god or avatar, but with D&D having more Death Gods than some people have underwear in their drawers, I thought it would be fun to get a bit further into it ;)
@@dave_marianMy take is that he is some entity working under Jergal orders, not Jergal himself. That's based on his initial dialog that made clear he is working under the instructions of someone else. In other words, Wither seems to be just a higher ranked version of the same order as the rest of the skeletons found in the area.
The final cutscene points to his motivations; he seem to be there specifically to screw with the plans of the Dead Three, and likely to prevent their ascension.
Other parts of the lore in the game point to the same conlcusion; the gods are scared of the Netherese brain, but Ao don't let them interfere directly. And is not likely that Jergal would abandon his sworn duty just to lend you a hand; if he wanted to interfere directly, he could handle the Netherese brain by himself or using an avatar like the dead three did.
Of course, in the end we don't know for sure; it could be Jergal acting under Ao's orders... is just that's highly unlikely. And there is no ** way that the other god's wouldn't notice if that was the case.
I figured at first he was kelemvors chosen
Paladin too
@@Imman1s No, he is explicitly Jergal. Any "servant" would have been obliterated by one of the Dead Three for his "blasphemy" against them in the final scene.
Your companions mentions that the statue in the beginning crypt you find Withers in is Jergal - if they pass a passive religion check (perhaps you as the player too).
For my runs it has always been Shadowheart that says it. So I have always had it in my head from the start! It was good to see how the character evolved and the final scenes with him in.
SPOILER FOR THE EMPEROR:
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I also find it interesting that at one point in the game Withers outrights states that mindflayers do not possess souls. However when if he meets The Emperor at the end, he says he recognises them.
A big hint perhaps that The Emperor is indeed a very different type of Illithid, and potentially retains at least part of the soul of Balduran within.
Playing Asmodeus' advocate here, they don't have souls as he understand them. I can't remember the word he used but I think he or another character mentioned they didn't have apothic(?) souls, as in they don't show up in the outer planes upon death but go... somewhere else. I think it warrants an examination of what a soul really is as well as Wither's own motivations. I recommend looking at Ed Greenwood's Lord of The End of Everything which documents Jergal's history and origins
@@cameronpearce5943 😂 Asmodeus' advocate. Nice one.
Thank you for the recommendation. I'll definitely look into it.
Asmodeus and the Blood Wars would be generally interesting on the topic of souls per se :)
@@cameronpearce5943he was using apostolic as an adjective, he means illithids are incapable of the worship required to empower deities, they are still soulless by his standards
@@cameronpearce5943Makes sense, illithid are very much deliberately lovecraftian, it would make sense that they have souls that go
Withers always felt like he was more than meets the eye
Wither's mentions there is a "He" that predicted our arrival, and that it's his duty to aid us in keeping balance and bringing about the plans of the Dead Three. IMO if he isn't Jergal himself, he is likely a Chosen/Champion of him. He's also helpful towards Arabella, giving her guidance along her own journey.
Could also easily be that he refers to Ao.
He most definitely is not a chosen of Jergal. On my play through I was a cleric of Jergal and passed some checks where I asked Withers if he is his avatar and the response was that he is not.
interesting! ive played as a cleric too, but it just gave me info that his powers are indeed divine@@pkropka
I suspected who he was quite early in the game. Especially since he can causally cast true resurrection and seemingly without the costly spell components(I mean he’s only charging you 200 gold for a 9th lvl spell?). I greatly amuses me there is just a god hanging out in my camp the whole adventure, watching me get up to stupid antics. He even comments on your love or lack of love life like it’s any of his business lol.
It's quite a fun idea. I hope he has some fun too haha.
I’m understand that he charges money for game balance reasons, but it’s funny to speculate on what he actually needs money for. Maybe he has some expensive wines stashed away somewhere.
Jergal/Withers will always stick around, because he's one of the only deities who can spend more than 30 seconds without pushing the world into another apocalypse Ao has to clean up, and the over-deity *really* appreciates that.
Makes sense.
One correction, Cyric was the god of death after myrkul. Cyric lost a war in the city of the dead as he looked for kelemvors soul. Which was hidden by the god mask. Which allowed kelemvor to ascend and take over.
Yeah but going into Cyric would be whole other clusterf""". And at the point in time the game plays at, Cyric has nothing to do with death anymore. Kelemvor, Jergal and Myrkul still do.
In act 3 if you break into the mausoleum in the graveyard you'll find a journal saying:
I was still a supplicant when I came face to face with him: Masked in gold, his skin fine and worn as parchment. Jergal, the death-keeper, the End of Everything. I asked what he needed of me. He asked a simple question: "What is the worth of a single mortal's life?" I knew not how to respond, and said as such. He seemed nonplussed; neither disappointed nor pleased. I fell to my knees in respect for his awesome power. This garnered no reaction. There I stayed, trembling with an emotion I could not name. And when I stood again, the Final Scribe was gone.
:)
Tav: wha- who tf are you? Why you in my camp bruv?
Withers: Me? I'm just hanging out
My guess is that withers isn't the big man himself but instead an avatar, as gale says "Direct divine interventions oftentimes doesn't work out" which is why Mystra sends gale to do stuff, although I'm some random guy not anyone who spent time on a theory
For a while it was quite common that gods in general could not interact with the material plane directly, which is why they have priests and avatars. But I am not sure if this is still the same after the time of trouble and the second sundering.
Withers is basically a DMPC given form. He is the devs, making sure that the story of each character is seen to completion. And to ensure that, they created an extraplanar being to manipulate the ties of fate in your favor.
Jergal just happens to be a convenient part of the lore that facilitates this. Someone who can fudge the records in your favor.
You don't have to guess anymore it's actually in the game, the lore flair for Withers was supposed to be in a text somewhere in game, but it's not shown for some reason (well I believe the reason being so that the community would discuss this about him), but someone has datamined it and Withers is Jergal. Who was tasked by Helm, coming from Ao, as a punishment for raising the Dead Three.
Helm is also a Quote interesting figure in and of itself!
Where are people getting the Helm thing from? Is it in game? Cause it's not in the wiki or dnd lore; Withers is just an avatar of Jergal, Jergal is an exarch who serves whoever is the Lord of the Dead, so in this case, he serves Kelemvor. Just like he served Cyric before him, and Myrkul before him.
@@erdrickcapet3945as OP said it is datamined material.
So technically it's in the game files but was not added in game proper.
Jergal: "Sure, I'll allow you to become part of the divine"
3 murder hobos become gods:
Jergal: "I seem to have committed an oopsie daisy as they say"
Sad that you didn't mention the unique Dialoge that the player has with Withers when playing a Cleric of Kelemvor.
Oh, please share
@kaygirl10101 As a cleric you in general can check in on Withers in Camp and have an option once where you determain that what type of creature he is and it usually says, if succeded, that he has a Divine Aspect to him, and as a Kelemvori Cleric you have a unique response to after that check is succeded where you ask Withers if he is a Avatar of Kelemvor. I don't remember quite what he directly said as i did quit a while ago, but he says something allong the lines of: "No. But close, your master thaugth you well." Thats the only type of responce which he doesn't intierly dismiss, which is a huge hint right at the start of the game what he might be/what his role in the game may suggest for anybody who knows the lore at least a bit surrounding gods and such.
I found it very cool, that the Deathgod Cleric is the only Cleric that gets that response. I sadly didn't continue playing that save, so i don't know if their are more instences where unique Dialoge between a Kelemvori and Withers happens, wanted to check if a Kelemvori Dark Urge maybe had even uniquer dialog options.
@@fis_trashwitch Neat, thank you for the response. Dnd has such deep lore. Honestly, I disregard it and play homebrew, but it's interesting how it morphs over the versions.
@@kaygirl10101 Yes, its really intressting how it continues its lore over the versions. I play mostly homebrew to but often include the dnd lore as part of background lore of a diffrent material plane.
I've never played that ;) gotta try
Dnd Lore facts for anyone that cares who is the god of what in the story that involves the god of death pantheon:
After shanangins explained in the video that occurred how the 3 deaths came to be they split apart they were each "fought" (or at least hunted) individually by a group of heroes who among them had the mercenary Kelemvor, the mage Midnight and a priest named Adon, who would be later joined by a deserter solider named Cyric. During their fight with Myrkul, Cyric betrayed them and became the new god of death as he was always a bit of a bitch.
To keep it brief they only fought Myrkul as Bane betrayed Myrkul just so he would be left alone and Bhall wasn't really in the picture.
Long story even shorter, the god of thieves and plans named Mask saved Kelemvor's soul to fight Cyric eventually, Kelemvor beat Cyric, all the ghost Cyric enslaved voted for Kelemvor to be the new god of death.
What happened to the other people:
Cyric after losing the god of death title still had a lot of worshipers and became known as the god of Betrayal
Myrkul the god of Necromancy
Bane the god of Tyranny
Bhall the god of Murder
Midnight turned out she had a piece of the god of magic inside of her so she replaced the "dead" god of magic and became Mystra the new goddess of magic
Adon died a horrible death long before any of his friends became gods by the hands of Cyric who tortured him for 10 years
And to anyone wondering yeah Withers is Jergal. There is a book in act 3 that talks about how Jergal talked to someone in a very similar way to you and a certain character origin story confirms that
I left out Cyric because I thought it was quite obvious that after the second sundering he is nowhere near the death portfolio compared to Kelemvor or Jergal. And talking about him would warrant it's own video. One day maybe :)
One more nice clue is that when he revives your characters he states that he is "erasing them from the archives", or something similar. So the way he revives us is by erasing our names from the list of people that died
True, that fits quite well.
I'm pretty sure there's a piece of writing linking Wither's question to him being Jergal.
I thought I read something more concrete in my first playthrough but couldn't replicate in the second. But well, that's dice rolls for you I guess.
@@dave_marianon bis tomb ist says he is the warden of the tombs
Withers is the Gman of the D&D world.
That is awkwardly accurate.
I remember this one time I was exploring a crypt and this weird mummy guy popped up and he said "what is the worth of a single mortal's life?"
I was super confused by this and more than a little freaked out, so I just stammered out the first thing that came to mind. "I don't know, maybe like... 200 gold?"
And he was just like, "yeah, that's what I was thinking. You know, I don't want to undervalue my own labor, but I'm just starting out in this business and I really want to get that word of mouth out there, y'know?"
And I just nodded along even though I still had no idea what he was talking about. Something about being a recent retiree and doing this to supplement his pension, I think? Anyway, he kept talking for another couple minutes and eventually we went our separate ways. I haven't thought about him in years. I hope he's doing alright. Seemed like a chill guy.
I'm sure he's very successful now.
@@dave_marianso long as he doesnt ever get his gold pickpocketed
I honestly didnt know WHAT he was till i learned about the dead three and I pieced it together.
I think many people who play BG3 don't know all that much about DnD lore, since even if you have played DnD before not all DMs use the "regular" background stories fully, or at all. I played almost exclusively homebrew for example.
The part where he asks "What is the value of a single mortal life?" is a reference to Torment: Tides of Numenéra, where "What does one life matter?" is the underlying question of the story. The reason it's in the game is probably because Colin McComb (and possibly other people) worked on both games.
Cool! Interesting fact!
Me and my dnd group played BG3 together and as soon as we found withers my very first instinct was "Oh that's 100% Jergal". Everyone was like "How can you tell?" and I was like. I just could.
My first instinct as well. I played a Doomscribe, a specialty priest of Jergal in AD&D 2e, at most a couple years ago, and I could recognize the symbols and signs.
I think if you have an experienced dnd group who uses actual dnd lore for their world it might make sense. I remember I had a bit of a harder time since I played primarily homebrew with custom lore.
Honestly, I suspected he must have been some sort of high cleric/priest for Jergal, right up until that last scene where he's talking to the paintings of the dead 3. Then it clicked that he WAS Jergal.
The statue in front of withers' tomb also triggers a religion check. If passed characters will recognise it as a statue of Jerghal.
Couldn't remember if they say a name, but they say it's the scribe of the dead.
I knew it was Jergal as soon as I saw the final cutscene
I can't remember how I got to it, but my Good Dark Urge Tav at one point asks Withers of being a chosen of a different god, and Withers replied with no wanting to talk about it anymore.
Hit a sore spot on the man ;)
Elder Scrolls Online has a similar thing in terms of being "Dead" while being "Alive" Your soul is basically held hostage during the Main story questline.
First instance I played something like that was Spellforce 1 I think.
something so serene about a god of death retiring from godhood
True
I always assumed he was a god of some kind but never knew the lore, nice video putting it all together
Glad you enjoyed it!
By far the best withers moment is when you deny baal if you are dark urge. Such a badass heroic moment
Going into this game I didn't know much about the lore of the forgotten realms gods aside from the vague outline of the spellplague and Jergal's deal with the dead three. I wasn't expecting the dead three to be involved at all, but as I unraveled the identity of Withers I loved it more and more. Jergal has been my favorite god in Faerun since I first heard of the dead three.
Larian has a really great grasp on the stories. Really hope they work on more!
Jergal, god of death, come to stop the dead 3.
The moment he jumped out, I immediately knew he was Jergal. I even remember the story of how he gave his powers away
It is a good story.
Withers is an avatar of Jergal.
Would make sense.
That's nice but what does he do with all the gold? Also damn, 200 gold doesn't sound like much in the lore considering that runaway groom from the Zhentarim hideout asks you 100 to get smashed, so if anybody pays Withers 200 gold he'll just say "alright thanks now here's your dead, alive"?
what remains mystery is who the fuck is caring for withers' eyelashes for millenia and still stay as gorgeous as that
He's not a God.
He's _retired._
One thing missed - if you pass a religion check in the main chamber you find Withers - the character will note the statue is dedicated to Jergal.
;)
“Why is Withers trying to cockblock me” might be one of the funniest reactions something has ever gotten out of me
I understand the point in this video, and it gives a really good in depth breakdown on Withers as a character, but I love how you can easily find your answer by looking through the game files in about 3 seconds. His model name is literally Jergal lmfao
Concept art the same ;) which is probably even easier to find for not so tech-savy people :D
Withers is Jergal, that is obvious. Specifically he is the avatar of Jergal
If you pass a religon check in the temple near the nautiloid, your character will explicitely make the observation that the temple (that Withers resides in) is dedicated to Jergal.
:D
I guessed he was jergal after talking to withers post Ketheric fight. Really cool world building
Agree, its fun to piece stuff together.
I hope one day we get Larian Studios & Fromsoft to collab and make an Elden Ring/Soulsborne style game set in D&D.
With Larian's Writing & Fromsoft's Gameplay & Combat would be an automatic 10/10 Game of the Year.
would be interesting, but you would also need WotC for the DnD IP. Not sure if they are that much into collaborations. Not too sure about FromSoft either :D
Mr. Withers was a sniper in Vietnam. Oh wait, that was Mr. Rogers
😁
Fane figured out how to travel the infinite multiverse and found his way to faerun and became Withers it all makes sense now
That would actually not even be that weird for DnD lore.
I heard of Jergal through reading the journal but wasn’t really paying attention to Withers aside from the crypt which he admitted was his from Act 1, I guess this twist doesn’t really surprise me but it’s interesting regardless
Interesting is good!
Short and satisfying video with a solved ending. great work
Thank you! 👍
I already knew this! In my second run read all the books in the crypt (I was playing a Sage) and they mention Jergal and the statue where you find Whiters is also Jergal, add to that the book in the small room! There are so many hints!
I admit that in my first run I didn't know because I never went to the crypt and Whiters appeared one day in my camp!
I didn't make the DC the first time.
“Here lies the guardian of tombs” aka Jergal.
it took me 3 playthroughs to realize he was jergal
Nothing sucks like a god forced to come out of retirement because his replacements screwed up.
Second that.
The rise of kelemvor is laid out in detail in the Avatar trilogy of books, along with Cyric and midnight
Jesus! How many paladin gods are there?! We have Tyr, Torm, Helm and Kelemvor?!
I mean technically every god can have a paladin. Technically paladins don't even have to be sworn to a deity, they could also take their oath towards a concept or an idea.
@@dave_marian Yup lol. If a person believes with all their heart that eating mushrooms and dancing naked in the woods is a worthy cause to devote their life too, then they become a Paladin of Eating Mushrooms and Dancing Naked in the Woods.
He isn't undead tho. He tells Arabella that when she asks. He says he is "not dead or undead, neither alive nor unliving".
Probably a reference to godhood?
@@dave_marian probably, yeah... I only said that because the OP called him undead.
It crazy how he’s essentially asking you how he will judge you when you die.
I don't know anything about D&D lore, but there's a book that mentions Bane, Bhaal and Myrkul and their confrontation with Jergal and it came to mind in the last parts of the game thinking about Withers, but after the epilogue party I just had to know for sure, such an intriguing character!
Yes I loved the way they integrated him!
4:41 for people saying withers is not jergal well it seems withers is actually admitting to it here.
I mean it's all but implied he's Jergal.
As described in the video ;)
I haven't seen it explicitly mentioned, but when you step near the statue of Jergal in the crypt on the shore in act 1, if someone passes a religion check, they will say that they know the statue to be Jergal, Scribe of the Dead.
Their are two big evidences that withers is Jergal.
One is a diary in which someones meets Jergal and he asks "What is the value of a single mortal life?"
And one where someone meets Jergal and describes withers
^_^d
That man was dead to me (hah get it) when he absolutely roasts me at the end of Act 2.
XD well put sir
hardest bg3 thumbnail ive ever seen
IDK why but it’s never got his intro cutscene so I was at the party with the tieflings and was just like “what tf is that”
I initially thoughtWithers was the Chosen of Jergal, because of his direct interference in the mortal world, which would be forbidden for by Ao. But then he did give his power away to the dead three, so perhaps Jergal, having given his power to the dead three, is indeed the Chosen of Kelemvor.
If we know one thing about the DnD pantheons is that they have quite a reputation for not always doing what Ao wants
He might have been an Apple fan boy once. He sells used items at high prices but doesn't care when someone steals his money.
Got a "pristine" customer base.
Is everyone overlooking that the game pretty much tells you he's jergal when you meet him he is in a crypt dedicated to jergal.
TL:DR He's definitely Jergal or an avatar of Jergal :D
It's not really Jergal, that is a cover. Its another god or creature that wants the dead three, and brain out of the way for their own plans.
Yeah let me know when Jergal is out of NDA, yes I asked a question about Jergal's origin being of the Spellweavers.... all I got was nda
At about 5:20 i got lost in that background beat. Get Withers a Dance Floor
I'm pretty sure someone made an animation like that somewhere.
Yeah and if your skill in religion is high enough in BG 3 the statue in the crypt in the game is Jergal. If you play Paladin there's unique dialogue for your character about Withers as well.
His appearance reminds me of Scorpius from Farscape, loosely. The face, mostly.
Yeah, Without knowing much of the lore, I just assumed he was an avatar of Jergal trying to fix what the other 3 F'd up.
Or just enjoying his retirement