Archer being Future Guy makes more sense if you view it not as him turning heel, but rather as him seeing some other shenanigans going on with the timeline and stepping in to ensure that things happened the way history recorded them happening, by becoming the person in the history books. Wouldn't be the first time a Star Trek captain did it (cough Ben Sisko/Gabriel Bell cough).
I want the Temporal wars to remain mostly unexplored. I like just tidbits here and there but I dont want a full exploration. The Borg were menacing when they were mostly unknown. But when they got overused, their menace evaporated. I fear the same for the Temporal Wars
Keeping it mysterious makes it more interesting. Two of my favorite Star Trek characters are Guinan and Garak, primarily because they remain so mysterious.
I think it's fairly simple what Future Archer's motives were. If you want to ensure stability in the most critical time in galactic history, you have to know the players. Archer knew himself and his crew, making it easy to put bread crumbs out and manipulate his past self into correcting the problems before they become problems. It's a lot like how Q would act antagonistically only to help Picard and his crew understand deeper aspects of situations. And let's not forget that Enterprise is actually key to the Star Trek multiverse, at least in the eyes of Doug Drexler(Mr. "Trip's not dead!"). And, if Future Archer's acting to keep the timelines right, encouraging himself to fake Trip's death hardly seems like a leap... Not even a quantum one.
When it comes to time travel, I agree with the legend that is chief of operations on Deep Space Nine Miles O'Brien's opinion 'I hate Temporal Mechanics'
Great recap gang 🖖 i imagine the temporal cold was as not having one canon story, the timeline was rewritten so many times by so many factions that only the surrounding events can be considered definitely canon
I hear and can understand some comments about not making a temporal wars series but if you take something like Loki and use it as a means to bring all Star Trek series together in some way... that could actually be pretty cool if pulled off in the right way.
Would be interesting to see Star Trek Online's battles against Noye as a legitimate and canon event. Even if it's a cameo the ISS Enterprise F would also be fun to see. but as a separate reality.
Ah i was wondering when we would examine more of this subject Wait. Wouldn't it be wild if Discovery finds out the answer about Archer's "Timey-Wimey-Wibbly-Wobbly" ?
Carls trans-dimensional capabilities or his connection to the mirror universe were obvious or at least implied since Enterprise In a Mirror, Darkly. The black and white cannon firing sailing ship is the same that can be seen through Carl in City on the edge of forever. And also Spock assumes that it is "a gateway to other times and dimensions"
Eh..... Enterpise - J was from timeline in which Archer failed to destroy Spheres and their Bulders has attacked Federation in 26th century. Later Star Trek Online adapted that storyline and moved it into prime timeline (until Picard reshuffled entire game into alternate universe). But original idea was that Archer by destroying Delphic Expanse anomaly, removed battle of Procyon-V from history and by thus making big question mark after question: did Enterpise - J really existing in prime timeline?
Okay, i try to answer your question as best I can. The Universe Class Enterprise-J we saw in ST:ENT was as you noted a product of an alternate timeline. In that timeline the transformed space of the Sphere Builders had consumed half the Milky Way. Countless planets would have been rendered uninhabitable. The sheer size of the Enterprise-J was probably because in addition to its role as a Federation starship it was also serving as something of an Ark. in the Prime timeline, that transformed space doesn’t exist and thus the need for people to relocate to starships doesn’t exist either. I’m sure by the 26th century there is a Federation starship called the Enterprise with the registry of “NCC-1701-J”. It however would look nothing like the Universe Class monstrosity we have seen.
@@DLordSadow Or is still there but not for the purpose the original was built for, and is probably named Voyager I in Prime. We saw that with the delayed cascade ability that Voyager invented while in the Delta Quadrant. Anyway, we have a new enemy at Procyon V in the Krenim, and they are core to that history. The Sphere Builders may not be a key part of those events going forwards as a result, but still have to happen. The Annorax vs Voyager hints at that history, and also could show a possibility that both ships will fight again in an eternal fight. That fight should happen at Procyon V in the time fight that happens there. We need to see that fight when we get there, if only to see what changed from Archer's time. These episodes in the past in these shows are showing the differences are seeding all the players that will have stakes in that conflict, and all cycle to Procyon V in a pitched battle. It is serving as a large scale failsafe fixed point event for any discrepancies in the timelines of the galaxy, like how the Vulcan first contact event ends all those changes affecting Earth's past.
Good video, Sean, especially considering how speculative a "we now know" episode like this had to be. One small correction: Pike, in the SNW episode "Strange New Worlds", refers to the Second Civil War, not the Second War of Independence. "No relation."
The cool thing about the Temporal Wars can be made into a relevant ok hotline in literally any Star Trek show or episode. It's not limited to the Enterprise era by definition.
That was really useful. I got a headache yesterday trying to figure out the temporal wars and now I will be returning to this video many times to straighten my head out. Thanks.
I think the Q left because Humanity failed. The interest Q de Lancie took always seemed to be him steering us to the frontier after the final: Time. Achieving mastery over space was nigh, time was next, and we'd become a people that actually registered on the Q's radar if not beginning our road to being like them. But the temporal wars proved we were as savage and hopeless as the Q always accused us of, that we'd regressed, and so they lost interest.
I'm starting to feel like the current writers of Star Trek played Star Trek Online, because they did their own take on the Temporal Wars and it involved a lot of the elements mentioned in this video. Including the Na'Khul and the Sphere Builders, the Khrenemi, and Enterprise-J. The only difference was that the storyline was created before Discovery was even an idea.
"Well that's about... We will mention it later. That both did and didn't happen later. We'll talk about that later..." Seán doing his own timey wimey wibbly wobbly thing
My spin on "Seán doing his own timey wimey wibbly wobbly thing" is that he does not say that he will do it later in this episode (or i missed him mentioning it) but could refer to later episodes where he will talk about what he missed talking about in this episode.
The Temporal Cold War was one of the most interesting aspects of Star Trek, and it deserved more attention. A missed chance was to have drawn in the Q and the Prophets during the Cold War. It might've also involved the Emissary.
I do love how Star Trek Online has expanded and explored the temporal wars with including the Krenium and showcasing the full battle of Procyon 5 (which happens bc the sphere builders keep trying again and again to complete their objectives)
I remember a time when people complained about there being "too much time travel in Star Trek" back in the 90s, I wish for those days again, because now it's just a big headache with all the future people governing the past because wars in time cause stuff and it didn't happen anyway becuase things were fixed so that it all worked out in the end but then more happened because someone else wibblywobbly'd about and, ugh, head hurts now.................
In STO it's a more multilateral effort. From 25th century onward due to the Iconian time travel event and time travel as a weapon regulation is required. But I don't see the time travel ban being possible. Especially with accidental travel is still a thing. Oh and events in STO's mirror Borg storyline alters a good part of the Nakhul faction to be a small faction in the temporal war.
So, one of my biggest gripes with Disco going to the 32nd Century was that we knew Starfleet had time ships long before that, like the Relativity. It made the whole "Burn" seem like an easy fix...go back before it, tell everyone to power down their warp cores, no problem. But, I'm beginning to come around to the idea that after the Temporal Wars, some sort of moratorium exists on time travel. I'm not sure what sort of enforcement of this moratorium might be...maybe a Krenim-esque erasure of your species from the timeline...or maybe there was so much time travel and disruption to spacetime that any more meddling risks unravelling all of existence, so no one does it? If the temporal wars were so terrible, I can get behind the idea of thr Federation and others in the galaxy supressing all knowledge of the science behind it. Maybe Starfleet Academy, the show, can explain it.
My personal headcanon is that after/during the temporal wars, the Klingons became the ones to enforce the accords. This would play into the unusually strong relationship Klingon culture has with time (Borath for example) and explain why we haven't seen them in the post-burn time period.
I find the ban on time travel strange based on the fact that Star Trek crews accidentally time travel all the time, plus it's as easy as slingshotting around the Sun. There are clearly many factions in the 32nd Century (e.g. Emerald Chain) so why would they abide by a weak Starfleet's time travel ban? And there must be numerous uncontacted civilisations unaware of the ban so who is stopping them from temporal shenanigans? As suggested, some horrific damage to the very fabric of spacetime might be enough to dissuade time travel, but otherwise once time travel tech is invented it can't simply be uninvented and ignored. (I try to not think about this plot element though as I do love Discovery and am glad the show found its feet in the 32nd Century setting)
@CosmicCorviknight the implication is its not just a starfleet ban but all the major powers agreed to it in order to avoid the major issues from the temporal war
With it appearing that the Eugenics Project that gave rise to Khan having taken place in Canada, it would be really fun to find out it's actually a branch of the Weapon X Project. 😀🖖
@@jgraygaming225 Weapon X is a fictional government genetic research facility project appearing in American comic books published by Marvel Comics. They were conducted by Department K, which turned willing and unwilling beings into living weapons to carry out covert missions like assassination or eliminating potential threats to the government. It was similar to human enhancement experiments in the real world, but it captured mutants and did experiments on them to enhance their abilities such as superpowers, turning them into human weapons. They also mutated baseline humans. The Weapon X Project produced Wolverine, Leech, Deadpool, Sabretooth, and Weapon H.
@Eirewolf I've heard about the project but how could that tie in with Star Trek? Realistically, they're events in different universes, created and owned by different media companies.
@@jgraygaming225 The name Soong says it all. It is all about creating new life. The Soong that started from creating Kahn, had a later descendant that then went on to create Lore and Data. The Temporal Wars are the conflicts on connections like this, but on a far greater scale. Annorax is a key name in all those fights. Both the scientist and the time ship that is named after him.
Hey Sean. Thank you for this update. Do you think you and your team can build a kind of a "graphic presentation" or a "chart" who could help us to understand more this "temporal Cold War". Could be great to understand more what we know. Thanks
I don't get why the project Khan folder was dated 1996. 1996 was when the Botany Bay left Earth. Ricardo Montalbán was born in 1920, making him 46 when Space Seed was filmed. That means that Khan was born around 1950 in the TOS timeline, not 1996.
As the above video explains the Temporal Time Wars has shifted events. So the boy who is named Khan is born later. And as for the Project Khan folder being dated 1996 it just means that any male child being a product of Operation Khan would be given that name.
I'm going to say somthing controversial; I think we should de-cannonize TOS. Hear me out: They mention a war in the 90s that Voyager wrote out, sexism in the Federation existed (Pike not wanting women on the bridge, women can't be captains), the Enterprise could zip from the center of the galaxy to the outer edge in hours instead of decades. It would allow Khan being a part of WW3. As well as undo many Canon issues.
It drives me crazy that the new trek thinks Khan is a name , it’s not it is a title , his name is Noonien Singh his title is Khan. Khan is a historic Mongolic and Turkic title originating among nomadic tribes in the Central and Eastern Eurasian Steppe to refer to king.
By this point, temporal stuff in Star Trek is confusing. At this rate I wonder if it’s a matter of time until the writers accidentally create a time travel episode that cancels out other episodes or even shows. If Star Trek shows are going to show more conflicts, maybe focus on an invasion from the Mirror Universe or a threat from outside the galaxy given the Borg are gone, the Romulan Star Empire is shattered, and the Dominion are staying in the Gamma Quadrant. The Mirror Universe is a strong idea to me because given that we know it’s no longer accessible, maybe this revelation pushed someone in the Mirror Universe to invade the Prime Universe. We already have non-canon games and comics that show Mirror Universe invasions. That being said, who would be the enemy? The Klingon-Cardassian Alliance? A revived Terran Empire? Somebody new?
Kovich says explicitly that the Terran Empire is gone and makes no reference to them having to fall a second time or anything like that. I think they’re off the table. The Alliance, mirror Dominion, mirror Borg, or mirror Romulans would be the big threats I would look at, especially since the last three are entirely unknown. Personally, I like the Terran Empire being dead and gone. I think it was a good shakeup for DS9 to make and going back to it imo can only stifle story potential and render the mirror universe fairly one-note. I also prefer to be optimistic and think that Smiley and the gang managed to make something better
In the eternal cliffhanger limbo of Trek, I have been able like you Sire, to ascertain that many many temporal war secrets in either a Captain franchise w Dorn or Yeoh. We might not need both, but we certainly deserve it. ❤
Retcon idea for Archer as the adversary: he travels to the future and sees the devastation left by the events of current season Discovery (the Breen destroy the Federation), or maybe even the Burn, but only briefly. He assumes they lose the Temporal Wars, and is now deadset on preventing it and makes the wrong choices.
In one of the Enterprise episodes (I don't remember which) they find what is effectively a TARDIS. It is also confirmed as a time ship (and bigger on the inside). Ignoring that this was a neat nod to Doctor Who and focusing only on the canon implications. Since it's never mentioned again, despite the Time War being such a big thing in the show, could this ship be from the time war, or would it potentially be from even farther into the future? OR, for a real mind bending idea, from even farther in the PAST from one of the old races. Proto-Q or even the progenitors?
@@joerider3769 A fair point. Still doesn't hold a candle to the one from the books, though. The Faction Paradox actually did cross over dimensions in that one.
Would anyone else like to see a Temporal Wars series or just me. I dunno if would be to complicated to do though, time travel always messes something up but could be a great way to bring all captains in to same series
And the Kernim ( from St Voyage Years of Hell ) were one of the trouble maker of the Temporal time war , their weapon "Kernim Chronophage" a timebug device left from the time war , In 32nd centuries people can still buy them in the black market , it was use to attack USS Discovery . The Kernim are specialist in Chroniton technologies , they use it in torpedo and time ship to erase competitor from history . It make sense they are one of the enemy in the Temporal time war
The Guardian of Forever explained why Nero, his crew and Spock didn’t have issues with jumping timelines, and going backwards in time. It basically comes down to distance from the point of divergence. Because Spock and Nero traveled backwards in time they spent their entire lives moving forwards to the point of divergence. Empress Georgiou on the other hand jumped into the future meaning that she would be moving away from the point of divergence. Every second thousands of new potential timelines became possible.
As someone who’s never been a fan of the Enterprise NCC 1701 J…that new, GORGEOUS rendering has made me reconsider said opinion 🖖🏼🖖🏼🖖🏼 That being said, I still don’t care for the Dauntless and NOTHING can change that opinion 😬😬😬😉😁😂🤣
Star Trek online, i know is not canon, but STO has a story line that revealed the creators of the Delphic Expanse (The Xindi arc) were infact the Crinum from Voyager
No Tuterians not Krenim. Though the Krenim were involved thanks to Noye who had a Tuterian wife in one timeline where they are in normal space. Noye redid year of hell in all of reality.
I still like the take that STO had with the temporal war arc there. There will always be a Battle of Procyon V, who and what are fighting are the variables, but it always happens. And damn it Noye...
Sto gives nice little looks into the temporal wars while leaving enough out other people can run with it. I reckon the Strange new worlds will dip into it as they kinda running it off a separate timeline as it's the best star trek series we've had in awhile 😂 so they can't drop it
My TH-cam feed recently displayed, a video from your channel, "10 Times Star Trek Accidentally Filmed Things You Weren't Meant To See", rather than post to a 2 year old video, I'll post here. Watching the version broadcast over television, I noticed ... Watching DS9 Season 4 episode "Rules of Engagement" they lost count of the pips, on Sisko's uniform, Sisko goes from Captain, to a Commander within about 10 minutes after opening credits, then back to a Captain after the first commercial.
Okay I must admit. I am an on and off Star Trek fan. I like it but the lore can be a bit too complicated for me some at points. So I have a question for you… WHY THE HELL IS THERE AN ALIEN IN AN SS UNIFORM AT MY SCREEN AT 1:22.
I think that the Gate Way aka Carl is the same tec that is seen in Star Trek TNG. In the S2 E11 “Contagion”. The Gateway that you see Picard, Data & Worf passing though. I think this is the birth of it all.
Being both a Dr. Who and Trek fan I love this sort of stuff. It could also be an interesting way to do a Dr. Who Trek crossover. The Doctor on The Enterprise.
I find it interesting that Locke (from Discovery Season 5) looks somewhat similar to the Na'Kul. But by that time everyone should know them right? So Locke isn't one I guess.
I do wonder how these shifts and time with Khan and the Eugenics Wars what effect and the Enterprise encountering Khan for the episode of space seed because wouldn't the botany they need the amount of time that it had in order to drift to where the Enterprise encountered it and if so does the Wrath of Khan happened the way it did
All this ties to the fannish conceit that our universe is the one that becomes the Trek timeline. It's, frankly. silly. It's like DC's "Superboy problem", where Superman moved forward year to year in the present and sort of dragged Superboy behind him. By the time they deep-sixed Superboy, he was in the Vietnam war era. I've got no problem with different Trek shows being set in alternate timeline, like we know the Kelvinverse is. After all, the TNG episode "Parallels" showed that thousands of timelines exist (Each presumably with their own "Mirror Universe". What's going to happen when April 5, 2063 arrives and no Vulcans drop in from the sky? Will that event be pushed forward to 2163?
a protagonist changing to an antagonist for the first time, unless you're aware of a very obscure episode of TNG called THE BEST OF BOTH WORLDS ... Or when Worf, Troi, and Data got possessed. Or like every single Mirror Universe episode. Or fifty other examples I could give. If you skip all of that, THEN it would be the first time.
The Temporal Cold Wars are just as ambiguous as the Eugenics Wars now. Hell, the temporal wars more than likely affected when exactly the Eugenics Wars took place and the prime history probably has been changed.
I liked this explanation. Thank you, although it was a bit confusing. I have a question about Strange New Worlds. I love the show, it has slowly become my favorite of all the Star Trek series, but why are there inconsistencies with it and TOS? Like the Gorn for example. In TOS when they first encounter them, they never heard of them before. Well if on SNW they are about to go to war with them, how would they not know about them on TOS? Just things like that make it a little confusing.
But it's already next week. Maaaan! I thought the TCW was a good way to handwave continuity errors. Star Trek never should have put a date on anything, but who knew people were going to be like this? And look at the story potential. :)
How does Buffer Time fit into the temporal wars? We know it's elimination wrecks all sorts of havoc on ships. Was Freeman being controlled by a temporal agent trying to undo the fabric of the Federation???
Silly question but I'm asking it anyway... are the other time-travelling factions/beings of Star Trek - the Q Continuum, the Prophets, the Travelers, the Krenim, the Department of Temporal Affairs, etc. - aware of the Temporal Cold War? What about Section 31?
I want a movie where in an alternate timeline, Icheb and Seven marry and Seven gives birth to a girl who is fully Borg. She grows up and goes back in time to become the very first Borg Queen. Then.................... Let's write a movie. Someone taker over from here then hand it off to someone else.
I really wished that you had put up spoiler alerts when talking about Strang New Worlds & how the girl was a Romulan. Haven't caught up on the show & didn't expect all that revealing plotlines. Had to cut the this off since I don't know what else you may spoil.
I was hoping that they would do a series on the ship of Relativity but instead they did Enterprise which Incorporated a lot of the time travel which in my opinion did not work at all. Not to mention the whole Discovery series time travel which was ludicrous to me.
Regarding Prime Spock and Nero suffering effects. It is stated that the mirror universe is now further away and the ties have essentially been severed as there hasn't been any contact with it in X number of years. It is very possible that the distance away from your time, as well as the "distance" your universe is from the one you are currently in, is what causes the problems. If this is the case, prime Spock, while he is further back in time than his origin, would actually be quite "close" to his universe, as that timeline is a relatively new branch and therefore, should be even closer than the mirror universe seeing as the mirror universe goes back to at the very latest first contact day, and would undoubtedly extend MUCH further back than that. Assuming all timelines or as they seem to be called in Star Trek, Universes, are branches of the prime timeline, we have no idea how far back the "mirror" universe branched off from our own.
We do know in a few key areas where Mirror differs from Prime. In Mirror, it is the Axis Powers that won WW2. Which is why they are so violent. But, the far bigger difference, is the Terran Empire fell long before DS9's episodes in Mirror. That is where things changed, since the Empire acted as a Mirror to the Federation.
@@shauntempley9757 Correct, but how much further back does it go than that? What was the original deviation point that caused the split? Was it the Nazis winning World War II? Did the Roman Empire never fall? Genghis Khan was never defeated? Christianity was snuffed out by the Romans before it could take hold? I feel like this is something that should be explored.
@@shattered_helix I agree with you. WW2 going that way does hint at all those historical moments you listed do not happen in Mirror. Or, they do, but too the worst versions.
I doubt prime Spock's sickness would be quite as bad, because his jump was backwards only a couple hundred years, and I Believe he landed close to the diversion point, meaning the universes only started to branch there as the divergence started to happen
Does anyone know why the Temporal Battle Cruiser is so small in STO? The game is no stranger to large ships and I thought the Enterprise-J is a few Kilometers long and a few wide, this ship is gargantuan but in STO it’s smaller than a galaxy class ship. Just wondering if anyone knows why they decided to do it that way.
But this Q, thought slapping Picard was going to make him better. No, you don't make people get fixed by slapping them in the face. That is not how this works!!!
Archer being Future Guy makes more sense if you view it not as him turning heel, but rather as him seeing some other shenanigans going on with the timeline and stepping in to ensure that things happened the way history recorded them happening, by becoming the person in the history books. Wouldn't be the first time a Star Trek captain did it (cough Ben Sisko/Gabriel Bell cough).
This came to mind as well. Who is to say the Temporal War wasn't an inside job? And they needed someone to "guide" the bad guys into a losing side.
This is Star Trek not pro wrestling 😂 but you make a great point.
Actually it would be the first time. lol sorry too easy
To set right what once went wrong…
I do like the idea that Archer might be leaping through time putting right what once went wrong. 😉
oh boy... 😅
Honestly…maybe that’s why he was cast in the role…
What is it now sam?!?!?!?
You might be saying he's making a quantum... leap? Oh, my
That makes sense. :)
I want the Temporal wars to remain mostly unexplored. I like just tidbits here and there but I dont want a full exploration. The Borg were menacing when they were mostly unknown. But when they got overused, their menace evaporated. I fear the same for the Temporal Wars
Agree. We don't have to know the details of everything and the mystery surrounding the temporal wars feels right.
@@Yibambe. I disagree, i wanna experience it
Keeping it mysterious makes it more interesting. Two of my favorite Star Trek characters are Guinan and Garak, primarily because they remain so mysterious.
I believe that it is important to explore and explain everything, even if the explanation doesn't meet expectations.
i feel this way about section 31
I think it's fairly simple what Future Archer's motives were. If you want to ensure stability in the most critical time in galactic history, you have to know the players. Archer knew himself and his crew, making it easy to put bread crumbs out and manipulate his past self into correcting the problems before they become problems. It's a lot like how Q would act antagonistically only to help Picard and his crew understand deeper aspects of situations.
And let's not forget that Enterprise is actually key to the Star Trek multiverse, at least in the eyes of Doug Drexler(Mr. "Trip's not dead!"). And, if Future Archer's acting to keep the timelines right, encouraging himself to fake Trip's death hardly seems like a leap... Not even a quantum one.
With references like that you could get investigated by Star Fleet NCIS.
@darthwiizius that sounds like an interesting show idea
@@GuardianSage
Should be popular with the, let's say "more mature" members of the Trek fanbase.
@@darthwiizius They would come on a New Orleans class ship!
@@markbernero9302
Yes, they could.
😂😂😂😂😂 The temporal joke of starting the video at the middle point is bloody brilliant, cheers!!
When it comes to time travel, I agree with the legend that is chief of operations on Deep Space Nine Miles O'Brien's opinion 'I hate Temporal Mechanics'
And that is why he is the most important man in Starfleet history.
Great recap gang 🖖 i imagine the temporal cold was as not having one canon story, the timeline was rewritten so many times by so many factions that only the surrounding events can be considered definitely canon
I hear and can understand some comments about not making a temporal wars series but if you take something like Loki and use it as a means to bring all Star Trek series together in some way... that could actually be pretty cool if pulled off in the right way.
Would be interesting to see Star Trek Online's battles against Noye as a legitimate and canon event. Even if it's a cameo the ISS Enterprise F would also be fun to see. but as a separate reality.
Ah i was wondering when we would examine more of this subject
Wait. Wouldn't it be wild if Discovery finds out the answer about Archer's "Timey-Wimey-Wibbly-Wobbly" ?
It might happen in Prodigy.
Carls trans-dimensional capabilities or his connection to the mirror universe were obvious or at least implied since Enterprise In a Mirror, Darkly. The black and white cannon firing sailing ship is the same that can be seen through Carl in City on the edge of forever. And also Spock assumes that it is "a gateway to other times and dimensions"
Eh..... Enterpise - J was from timeline in which Archer failed to destroy Spheres and their Bulders has attacked Federation in 26th century. Later Star Trek Online adapted that storyline and moved it into prime timeline (until Picard reshuffled entire game into alternate universe). But original idea was that Archer by destroying Delphic Expanse anomaly, removed battle of Procyon-V from history and by thus making big question mark after question: did Enterpise - J really existing in prime timeline?
Okay, i try to answer your question as best I can. The Universe Class Enterprise-J we saw in ST:ENT was as you noted a product of an alternate timeline. In that timeline the transformed space of the Sphere Builders had consumed half the Milky Way. Countless planets would have been rendered uninhabitable. The sheer size of the Enterprise-J was probably because in addition to its role as a Federation starship it was also serving as something of an Ark. in the Prime timeline, that transformed space doesn’t exist and thus the need for people to relocate to starships doesn’t exist either. I’m sure by the 26th century there is a Federation starship called the Enterprise with the registry of “NCC-1701-J”. It however would look nothing like the Universe Class monstrosity we have seen.
@@DLordSadow Or is still there but not for the purpose the original was built for, and is probably named Voyager I in Prime. We saw that with the delayed cascade ability that Voyager invented while in the Delta Quadrant.
Anyway, we have a new enemy at Procyon V in the Krenim, and they are core to that history. The Sphere Builders may not be a key part of those events going forwards as a result, but still have to happen.
The Annorax vs Voyager hints at that history, and also could show a possibility that both ships will fight again in an eternal fight. That fight should happen at Procyon V in the time fight that happens there. We need to see that fight when we get there, if only to see what changed from Archer's time.
These episodes in the past in these shows are showing the differences are seeding all the players that will have stakes in that conflict, and all cycle to Procyon V in a pitched battle.
It is serving as a large scale failsafe fixed point event for any discrepancies in the timelines of the galaxy, like how the Vulcan first contact event ends all those changes affecting Earth's past.
Good video, Sean, especially considering how speculative a "we now know" episode like this had to be. One small correction: Pike, in the SNW episode "Strange New Worlds", refers to the Second Civil War, not the Second War of Independence. "No relation."
I came here to say this
I absolutely love the "Friend of Dax" shirt, Seán!
I wouldn’t say Dax qualifies as trans.
Cringe
@@KCKingdomCreateGreatTrekAgain It does if you're an absolute clown trying to make anything you see into a trans person
Should have cut 1 second from this video so it would be 17:01 long. 😊
Ha, he did, lol.
"Duncan Rillak looks like Sean Ferrick"
"I don't see it."
"They have like the same face, they're indentical!"
"No, I just don't see it." 😁🤣
Still not seeing it.
The cool thing about the Temporal Wars can be made into a relevant ok hotline in literally any Star Trek show or episode. It's not limited to the Enterprise era by definition.
That was really useful. I got a headache yesterday trying to figure out the temporal wars and now I will be returning to this video many times to straighten my head out. Thanks.
I think the Q left because Humanity failed. The interest Q de Lancie took always seemed to be him steering us to the frontier after the final: Time. Achieving mastery over space was nigh, time was next, and we'd become a people that actually registered on the Q's radar if not beginning our road to being like them. But the temporal wars proved we were as savage and hopeless as the Q always accused us of, that we'd regressed, and so they lost interest.
I'm starting to feel like the current writers of Star Trek played Star Trek Online, because they did their own take on the Temporal Wars and it involved a lot of the elements mentioned in this video. Including the Na'Khul and the Sphere Builders, the Khrenemi, and Enterprise-J. The only difference was that the storyline was created before Discovery was even an idea.
lets just hope they use the really good stories from STO.
i mean, the odyssey was canonized as the real enterprise F. so i'd say it's a pretty good shot IMO.
Pike didn't refer to the second east of Independence. He referred to the Second Civil War.
That's a major difference.
I love how the video is 17 minutes and 1 second long. I.e., 17:01 .
"Well that's about... We will mention it later. That both did and didn't happen later. We'll talk about that later..." Seán doing his own timey wimey wibbly wobbly thing
My spin on "Seán doing his own timey wimey wibbly wobbly thing" is that he does not say that he will do it later in this episode (or i missed him mentioning it) but could refer to later episodes where he will talk about what he missed talking about in this episode.
The Temporal Cold War was one of the most interesting aspects of Star Trek, and it deserved more attention.
A missed chance was to have drawn in the Q and the Prophets during the Cold War. It might've also involved the Emissary.
Starting in the middle of ups and downs made me thing there was a temporal attack on our timeline.
I do love how Star Trek Online has expanded and explored the temporal wars with including the Krenium and showcasing the full battle of Procyon 5 (which happens bc the sphere builders keep trying again and again to complete their objectives)
Can we agree that Kirk has become the Kenny of Star Trek. Oh my God you killed Kirk, you bastard 😂
@@GeekFilter
Well there was the time Jim got trapped in a transporter thingy and had to haunt the ship to get himself reconstructed. Does that count?
@@GeekFilter
Does the transporter accident that divided Jim in to 2 Jims also count?
😂😂
@@GeekFilter Spock died in S.T Beyond due to Leonard Nimoy's passing!
I remember a time when people complained about there being "too much time travel in Star Trek" back in the 90s, I wish for those days again, because now it's just a big headache with all the future people governing the past because wars in time cause stuff and it didn't happen anyway becuase things were fixed so that it all worked out in the end but then more happened because someone else wibblywobbly'd about and, ugh, head hurts now.................
In STO it's a more multilateral effort. From 25th century onward due to the Iconian time travel event and time travel as a weapon regulation is required. But I don't see the time travel ban being possible. Especially with accidental travel is still a thing. Oh and events in STO's mirror Borg storyline alters a good part of the Nakhul faction to be a small faction in the temporal war.
This is a really nice update for the current Trek 🎉
Your faction was involved in the Temporal Wars? Na'Khul dude... Na'Khul at all.👽
So, one of my biggest gripes with Disco going to the 32nd Century was that we knew Starfleet had time ships long before that, like the Relativity. It made the whole "Burn" seem like an easy fix...go back before it, tell everyone to power down their warp cores, no problem.
But, I'm beginning to come around to the idea that after the Temporal Wars, some sort of moratorium exists on time travel. I'm not sure what sort of enforcement of this moratorium might be...maybe a Krenim-esque erasure of your species from the timeline...or maybe there was so much time travel and disruption to spacetime that any more meddling risks unravelling all of existence, so no one does it?
If the temporal wars were so terrible, I can get behind the idea of thr Federation and others in the galaxy supressing all knowledge of the science behind it.
Maybe Starfleet Academy, the show, can explain it.
My personal headcanon is that after/during the temporal wars, the Klingons became the ones to enforce the accords. This would play into the unusually strong relationship Klingon culture has with time (Borath for example) and explain why we haven't seen them in the post-burn time period.
@@jpritchett42 sounds good
I find the ban on time travel strange based on the fact that Star Trek crews accidentally time travel all the time, plus it's as easy as slingshotting around the Sun. There are clearly many factions in the 32nd Century (e.g. Emerald Chain) so why would they abide by a weak Starfleet's time travel ban? And there must be numerous uncontacted civilisations unaware of the ban so who is stopping them from temporal shenanigans? As suggested, some horrific damage to the very fabric of spacetime might be enough to dissuade time travel, but otherwise once time travel tech is invented it can't simply be uninvented and ignored. (I try to not think about this plot element though as I do love Discovery and am glad the show found its feet in the 32nd Century setting)
@CosmicCorviknight the implication is its not just a starfleet ban but all the major powers agreed to it in order to avoid the major issues from the temporal war
With it appearing that the Eugenics Project that gave rise to Khan having taken place in Canada, it would be really fun to find out it's actually a branch of the Weapon X Project. 😀🖖
What's the Weapon X project?
@@jgraygaming225 Weapon X is a fictional government genetic research facility project appearing in American comic books published by Marvel Comics. They were conducted by Department K, which turned willing and unwilling beings into living weapons to carry out covert missions like assassination or eliminating potential threats to the government. It was similar to human enhancement experiments in the real world, but it captured mutants and did experiments on them to enhance their abilities such as superpowers, turning them into human weapons. They also mutated baseline humans. The Weapon X Project produced Wolverine, Leech, Deadpool, Sabretooth, and Weapon H.
@Eirewolf I've heard about the project but how could that tie in with Star Trek? Realistically, they're events in different universes, created and owned by different media companies.
So what you're saying is that Paramount's going to be acquired by Disney?
@@jgraygaming225 The name Soong says it all.
It is all about creating new life. The Soong that started from creating Kahn, had a later descendant that then went on to create Lore and Data.
The Temporal Wars are the conflicts on connections like this, but on a far greater scale. Annorax is a key name in all those fights. Both the scientist and the time ship that is named after him.
Hey Sean. Thank you for this update. Do you think you and your team can build a kind of a "graphic presentation" or a "chart" who could help us to understand more this "temporal Cold War". Could be great to understand more what we know. Thanks
How about a Top 10 things list about the Scapped Season 5 of Enterprise
Read the opening to the book Walking to Babylon. Great description of a Temporal War.
I don't get why the project Khan folder was dated 1996. 1996 was when the Botany Bay left Earth. Ricardo Montalbán was born in 1920, making him 46 when Space Seed was filmed. That means that Khan was born around 1950 in the TOS timeline, not 1996.
As the above video explains the Temporal Time Wars has shifted events. So the boy who is named Khan is born later. And as for the Project Khan folder being dated 1996 it just means that any male child being a product of Operation Khan would be given that name.
I'm going to say somthing controversial; I think we should de-cannonize TOS.
Hear me out: They mention a war in the 90s that Voyager wrote out, sexism in the Federation existed (Pike not wanting women on the bridge, women can't be captains), the Enterprise could zip from the center of the galaxy to the outer edge in hours instead of decades.
It would allow Khan being a part of WW3. As well as undo many Canon issues.
It drives me crazy that the new trek thinks Khan is a name , it’s not it is a title , his name is Noonien Singh his title is Khan.
Khan is a historic Mongolic and Turkic title originating among nomadic tribes in the Central and Eastern Eurasian Steppe to refer to king.
Because in modern times it IS a name. Just like someone named Lord, Baron, Duke etc.
A Star Trek Relativity show set in the 28 Century could be interesting..
We need a series or movies that takes place during the temporal Cold War.
I couldn't help but notice that the video runtime was 17:01. 🖖
By this point, temporal stuff in Star Trek is confusing. At this rate I wonder if it’s a matter of time until the writers accidentally create a time travel episode that cancels out other episodes or even shows. If Star Trek shows are going to show more conflicts, maybe focus on an invasion from the Mirror Universe or a threat from outside the galaxy given the Borg are gone, the Romulan Star Empire is shattered, and the Dominion are staying in the Gamma Quadrant.
The Mirror Universe is a strong idea to me because given that we know it’s no longer accessible, maybe this revelation pushed someone in the Mirror Universe to invade the Prime Universe. We already have non-canon games and comics that show Mirror Universe invasions. That being said, who would be the enemy? The Klingon-Cardassian Alliance? A revived Terran Empire? Somebody new?
Kovich says explicitly that the Terran Empire is gone and makes no reference to them having to fall a second time or anything like that. I think they’re off the table. The Alliance, mirror Dominion, mirror Borg, or mirror Romulans would be the big threats I would look at, especially since the last three are entirely unknown.
Personally, I like the Terran Empire being dead and gone. I think it was a good shakeup for DS9 to make and going back to it imo can only stifle story potential and render the mirror universe fairly one-note.
I also prefer to be optimistic and think that Smiley and the gang managed to make something better
I love Star Trek!
Ty for the video and LLAP!
In the eternal cliffhanger limbo of Trek, I have been able like you Sire, to ascertain that many many temporal war secrets in either a Captain franchise w Dorn or Yeoh. We might not need both, but we certainly deserve it. ❤
I love your T-shirt 💜
Universe Class, Universe Class, size of the entire Universe... class.
At 1:36: Despite it being a transporter (I think), does the stance and placement remind you of the shadow guy (9:04)?
Ok, they indicate that Archer was the shadow guy.
This answers Archers dog reference in Kelvin time line when Scotty killed Archers dog in a transporter.
You gotta wonder why Carl/The Guardian of Forever and/or the Wormhole Aliens didn't step in and stop the time shenanigans.
Retcon idea for Archer as the adversary: he travels to the future and sees the devastation left by the events of current season Discovery (the Breen destroy the Federation), or maybe even the Burn, but only briefly. He assumes they lose the Temporal Wars, and is now deadset on preventing it and makes the wrong choices.
Just FYI Admiral Vance said no one had been in contact with the Q continuum for at least 600 years. Not Kovich.
In one of the Enterprise episodes (I don't remember which) they find what is effectively a TARDIS. It is also confirmed as a time ship (and bigger on the inside). Ignoring that this was a neat nod to Doctor Who and focusing only on the canon implications. Since it's never mentioned again, despite the Time War being such a big thing in the show, could this ship be from the time war, or would it potentially be from even farther into the future? OR, for a real mind bending idea, from even farther in the PAST from one of the old races. Proto-Q or even the progenitors?
Maybe the Doctor Who Time War was more vast than we think/thought/will think...
@@joerider3769 A fair point. Still doesn't hold a candle to the one from the books, though. The Faction Paradox actually did cross over dimensions in that one.
Always loved the idea of archer changing the past to save porthos from scotty’s transporter tho it’s a past storyline
YOU DID SEE ME LAST WEEK! the circle is complete now preventing a paradox!
Would anyone else like to see a Temporal Wars series or just me. I dunno if would be to complicated to do though, time travel always messes something up but could be a great way to bring all captains in to same series
The Ent J is by far the ugliest ship design in Trek, I really wish it'd just been leftt in that abysmal Enterprise episode and forgotten about.
Since it is a 'possible' future it might. Besides, it was a rushed design of which we only ever got to see a single blueprint on a wallscreen.
Was this video shortened after release? From the beginning I can see there are already 6 ups and 1 down and I really feel like I missed something.
And the Kernim ( from St Voyage Years of Hell ) were one of the trouble maker of the Temporal time war , their weapon "Kernim Chronophage" a timebug device left from the time war , In 32nd centuries people can still buy them in the black market , it was use to attack USS Discovery .
The Kernim are specialist in Chroniton technologies , they use it in torpedo and time ship to erase competitor from history . It make sense they are one of the enemy in the Temporal time war
I wouldn't be suprised if the mystery figure in Enterprise that directed the suliban was actually Captain Braxton.
I prefer their Envoy being a Krenim named Noye.
The Guardian of Forever explained why Nero, his crew and Spock didn’t have issues with jumping timelines, and going backwards in time. It basically comes down to distance from the point of divergence. Because Spock and Nero traveled backwards in time they spent their entire lives moving forwards to the point of divergence. Empress Georgiou on the other hand jumped into the future meaning that she would be moving away from the point of divergence. Every second thousands of new potential timelines became possible.
Kind of had a Doctor Who 'I'll explain later' thing going there, Sean🙂
The Kelvin timeline's Khan was submerged in skin whitening solution while he was in suspended animation it seems
And apparently had his speech patterns altered, I'm guessing like in Demolition Man style.
I mean to be fair on that, the actual Prime timeline Khan also whitened a lot between series and film.
He could’ve also been given a TON of plastic surgery too.
Makes sense.... Remember when Archer got Stuck in a Quantum Leap?
I can't believe I got the alert and was able to.comment first. Btw i love your videos.
As someone who’s never been a fan of the Enterprise NCC 1701 J…that new, GORGEOUS rendering has made me reconsider said opinion 🖖🏼🖖🏼🖖🏼
That being said, I still don’t care for the Dauntless and NOTHING can change that opinion 😬😬😬😉😁😂🤣
How about "Ten things we now know about the Romulans"?
Star Trek online, i know is not canon, but STO has a story line that revealed the creators of the Delphic Expanse (The Xindi arc) were infact the Crinum from Voyager
No Tuterians not Krenim. Though the Krenim were involved thanks to Noye who had a Tuterian wife in one timeline where they are in normal space. Noye redid year of hell in all of reality.
I still like the take that STO had with the temporal war arc there.
There will always be a Battle of Procyon V, who and what are fighting are the variables, but it always happens.
And damn it Noye...
The Temporal Wars are the new Eugenics War. Or the Clone Wars, if you're from another fandom.
Eugenics Wars came before the Clone Wars
I think the Enterprise J is such a huge ship they use transporters for the people to get where they need to be on the ship.
Sto gives nice little looks into the temporal wars while leaving enough out other people can run with it. I reckon the Strange new worlds will dip into it as they kinda running it off a separate timeline as it's the best star trek series we've had in awhile 😂 so they can't drop it
I so enjoy your deep Midwest American accent on the square space ad!❤
My TH-cam feed recently displayed, a video from your channel, "10 Times Star Trek Accidentally Filmed Things You Weren't Meant To See", rather than post to a 2 year old video, I'll post here. Watching the version broadcast over television, I noticed ...
Watching DS9 Season 4 episode "Rules of Engagement" they lost count of the pips, on Sisko's uniform, Sisko goes from Captain, to a Commander within about 10 minutes after opening credits, then back to a Captain after the first commercial.
Okay I must admit. I am an on and off Star Trek fan. I like it but the lore can be a bit too complicated for me some at points. So I have a question for you… WHY THE HELL IS THERE AN ALIEN IN AN SS UNIFORM AT MY SCREEN AT 1:22.
It was just as weird in context, to be fair.
Time travel baby!
You mentioning Prime Spock basically echoes my own theories as to why he dies at what for a Vulcan is comparatively early age.
first contact is a 'fixed point in time'? So do they land in a policebox and call themself doctor ?
I think that the Gate Way aka Carl is the same tec that is seen in Star Trek TNG. In the S2 E11 “Contagion”. The Gateway that you see Picard, Data & Worf passing though. I think this is the birth of it all.
Temporal mechanics just gives me a headache.
Being both a Dr. Who and Trek fan I love this sort of stuff. It could also be an interesting way to do a Dr. Who Trek crossover. The Doctor on The Enterprise.
They did. It involves Borg and Cybermen.
There are graphic novels of that.
@barrybend7189 Did the borg and cyber men fight each other or team up?
@@GuardianSage team up then fight each other.
No. No. No. Star Trek and Doctor Who are separate entities on the screen.
I find it interesting that Locke (from Discovery Season 5) looks somewhat similar to the Na'Kul. But by that time everyone should know them right? So Locke isn't one I guess.
I do wonder how these shifts and time with Khan and the Eugenics Wars what effect and the Enterprise encountering Khan for the episode of space seed because wouldn't the botany they need the amount of time that it had in order to drift to where the Enterprise encountered it and if so does the Wrath of Khan happened the way it did
Love the T-shirt, Sean...
All this ties to the fannish conceit that our universe is the one that becomes the Trek timeline. It's, frankly. silly. It's like DC's "Superboy problem", where Superman moved forward year to year in the present and sort of dragged Superboy behind him. By the time they deep-sixed Superboy, he was in the Vietnam war era. I've got no problem with different Trek shows being set in alternate timeline, like we know the Kelvinverse is. After all, the TNG episode "Parallels" showed that thousands of timelines exist (Each presumably with their own "Mirror Universe". What's going to happen when April 5, 2063 arrives and no Vulcans drop in from the sky? Will that event be pushed forward to 2163?
a protagonist changing to an antagonist for the first time, unless you're aware of a very obscure episode of TNG called THE BEST OF BOTH WORLDS ... Or when Worf, Troi, and Data got possessed. Or like every single Mirror Universe episode. Or fifty other examples I could give. If you skip all of that, THEN it would be the first time.
The Temporal Cold Wars are just as ambiguous as the Eugenics Wars now. Hell, the temporal wars more than likely affected when exactly the Eugenics Wars took place and the prime history probably has been changed.
I liked this explanation. Thank you, although it was a bit confusing. I have a question about Strange New Worlds. I love the show, it has slowly become my favorite of all the Star Trek series, but why are there inconsistencies with it and TOS? Like the Gorn for example. In TOS when they first encounter them, they never heard of them before. Well if on SNW they are about to go to war with them, how would they not know about them on TOS? Just things like that make it a little confusing.
But it's already next week. Maaaan!
I thought the TCW was a good way to handwave continuity errors. Star Trek never should have put a date on anything, but who knew people were going to be like this? And look at the story potential. :)
I think Braga was pulling your leg. You know it gets to a point where these guys don’t have anything left to say they’re making it up on the fly.
Just in case you put in effort to make it so, I appreciate the length of the video. :D
I just have an observation on your shirt: Dax isn't trans, Dax is fluid. They used the wrong flag.
Keep up the great work!💜
How does Buffer Time fit into the temporal wars? We know it's elimination wrecks all sorts of havoc on ships. Was Freeman being controlled by a temporal agent trying to undo the fabric of the Federation???
Silly question but I'm asking it anyway... are the other time-travelling factions/beings of Star Trek - the Q Continuum, the Prophets, the Travelers, the Krenim, the Department of Temporal Affairs, etc. - aware of the Temporal Cold War? What about Section 31?
I want a movie where in an alternate timeline, Icheb and Seven marry and Seven gives birth to a girl who is fully Borg. She grows up and goes back in time to become the very first Borg Queen. Then....................
Let's write a movie. Someone taker over from here then hand it off to someone else.
I really wished that you had put up spoiler alerts when talking about Strang New Worlds & how the girl was a Romulan. Haven't caught up on the show & didn't expect all that revealing plotlines. Had to cut the this off since I don't know what else you may spoil.
Thanks. 🖖🏻
I was hoping that they would do a series on the ship of Relativity but instead they did Enterprise which Incorporated a lot of the time travel which in my opinion did not work at all. Not to mention the whole Discovery series time travel which was ludicrous to me.
Regarding Prime Spock and Nero suffering effects. It is stated that the mirror universe is now further away and the ties have essentially been severed as there hasn't been any contact with it in X number of years. It is very possible that the distance away from your time, as well as the "distance" your universe is from the one you are currently in, is what causes the problems. If this is the case, prime Spock, while he is further back in time than his origin, would actually be quite "close" to his universe, as that timeline is a relatively new branch and therefore, should be even closer than the mirror universe seeing as the mirror universe goes back to at the very latest first contact day, and would undoubtedly extend MUCH further back than that.
Assuming all timelines or as they seem to be called in Star Trek, Universes, are branches of the prime timeline, we have no idea how far back the "mirror" universe branched off from our own.
We do know in a few key areas where Mirror differs from Prime. In Mirror, it is the Axis Powers that won WW2.
Which is why they are so violent.
But, the far bigger difference, is the Terran Empire fell long before DS9's episodes in Mirror. That is where things changed, since the Empire acted as a Mirror to the Federation.
@@shauntempley9757 Correct, but how much further back does it go than that? What was the original deviation point that caused the split? Was it the Nazis winning World War II? Did the Roman Empire never fall? Genghis Khan was never defeated? Christianity was snuffed out by the Romans before it could take hold? I feel like this is something that should be explored.
@@shattered_helix I agree with you. WW2 going that way does hint at all those historical moments you listed do not happen in Mirror. Or, they do, but too the worst versions.
I doubt prime Spock's sickness would be quite as bad, because his jump was backwards only a couple hundred years, and I Believe he landed close to the diversion point, meaning the universes only started to branch there as the divergence started to happen
Does anyone know why the Temporal Battle Cruiser is so small in STO? The game is no stranger to large ships and I thought the Enterprise-J is a few Kilometers long and a few wide, this ship is gargantuan but in STO it’s smaller than a galaxy class ship. Just wondering if anyone knows why they decided to do it that way.
But this Q, thought slapping Picard was going to make him better. No, you don't make people get fixed by slapping them in the face. That is not how this works!!!