The Joker Was Always Evil | Batman The Animated Series
ฝัง
- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 12 มิ.ย. 2024
- In this video I look at the version of the Joker we see in Batman the Animated Series and highlight how unlike the other villains he was. He wasn't some tragic figure, driven by revenge, he was just plain evil long before he he took that fateful dunk in a vat of acid.
#batman #batmantheanimatedseries #joker #batmanmaskofthephantasm
Chapters:
0:00 Introduction
01:05 The Comic Book Joker
03:42 The Killing Joke
05:15 Who Was BTAS' Joker?
06:26 The Joker's Origin
07:05 Mask of the Phantasm
09:22 Mad Love
11:33 The Joker's True Passion
13:20 Conclusion
14:20 Self-Promotion
14:47 Next Time
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Music by @Katt Strike - listen to the whole track here: • Ambient Batman Music b... - ภาพยนตร์และแอนิเมชัน
![[FULL EP.13] เซียนหรั่ง พา ไททศมิตร ลงเรือฝึกสกิลหว่านแห | เฮ็ดอย่างเซียนหรั่ง | One Playground](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/EWFuf2Av0K0/mqdefault.jpg)
I think making him sympathetic would be mistake. He supposed to be a psychopath…a monster. Not a tortured soul crying for love and acceptance.
I ABSOLUTLEY AGREE.
Joker is not supposed to be a victim; he's a monster Who likes to see he and Batman as face of the same medallion and obsessed with the fact that anyone can go crazy.
It always makes more sense to me that pre-chemical bath he was already a criminal as Red hood. JUST LIKE THE FIRST COMIC DEPICTING THAT STORY.
I still prefer the version where he was normal guy before chemical vat, like in the killing joke.
It make sense to me the most, since with the joker belief that one day can turn every normal person to crazy maniac, as the joker want to justify his suffering
But not dowplaying the dcau version of the joker, which is still great to see a pure evil joker, who's bad day wasnt a change to him, but rather a revealation who he always was
@@skeletontamirThe point of the Killing Joke is that the story of his backstory before falling into the vat of chemicals is a mystery to him and that he doesn't remember his own past. He even says that directly. The flashbacks are supposed to be a misdirect.
Only in the Killing Joke comicbook he (somewhat) comes off as relatable despite all the cruelty he continues to commit but since the DCAU version of the Joker was based on Jack Nicholson incarnation from the 1989 Batman movie it makes sense he remained an irredeemable monster.
@@Paolo-ec2si He was outright based on Jack Napier/Jack Nicholson's Joker from the 1989 Batman who was also nothing more than a murderer and petty criminal which is why he was consistently written as just that out of consistency for Nicholson's performance as the character and the movie the series was trying to capitalize on.
Making The Joker, of all supervillains, coming off as a tragic character because "we live in a society" pretty much defeats the purpose of what makes him a true menace to Gotham City. He is called a "Clown Prince of Crime" for a reason. Redeeming qualities doesn't matter to him as long as he's committing more crimes and wreaking havoc as possible as he can just for kicks, like telling Batman that there are no laws against the Pokemon.
You know what im gonna do to that thing right batman
In a way that joker is what Harley thinks he is…not who he really is
I think that's why the three Joker's storyline it was revealed that Killing joke Joker Before he fell into the vat of chemicals he was already pretty unhinged that his pregnant wife was scared of him, To the point where she went to gcpd for protection would which ended up with her being relocated to Alaska.
You seem to forget that everything said in “Joker” was primarily told from his perspective. We’re being sold one of his stories and alot of people fell for it, hook line and sinker. If that was intention is up for debate but it’s still a way to look at the movie.
@@rynemcgriffin1752Some, all or none of his story could be true.
I think Mad Love sums him up the best.
He can lie well enough to pretend to be sympathetic... but deep down he is exactly the same on the surface. Just a monster with a twisted sense of humor.
At the end of the day, most of the villains in Gotham are redeemable in some way or another. As a child BTAS really helped me to understand the concept of empathy for the first time. Seeing Batman try to help his villains and understand their side of things. But then there’s always the joker, a constant reminder that there are people in the world who will always try and take advantage of your empathy and twist the narrative for their own ends, people who unfortunately don’t want help, only to use you for their own selfish reasons.
Always remember the Joker's a clown who's meant to be funny even though he's evil
Who knows? Maybe all these backstories we keep getting are just stories he tells people.
I liked The Joker as a madman. A monster, not a misunderstood individual
Oh, people still misunderstand him. They can't accept that a man can be that unrepentantly evil, wanting to watch the world burn just for the hell of it.
True enough, though at the same time I think some people take the monster part too far.
Get down to it, he’s a homicidal bully, not a mythic emissary of chaos.
It’s why I enjoy joker’s favor, he truly has no scruples but at the same time he just as afraid of death as his victims.
That's why I'm not interested in the Joker movies
@@changvasejarik62I feel like there's a balance you want to strike. If you make the Joker too much of a monster then you really have to have a damn good compelling reason for why Batman doesn't kill him which almost no piece of media provides, sometimes even character assassinating Batman into a psychopath himself to justify it with "once I taste blood I won't stop because I like killing". IMO, this is why the central premise of the "One Bad Day" works.
If you want Batman to have a genuine reason in line with his morals as to why he doesn't kill Joker, Joker inherently has to be something Batman can believe is by some slim chance redeemable (Batman's no killing rule is entirely built around the idea that people can be rehabilitated, so if Joker is truly impossible to rehabilitated you get to the point where Batman's rule just doesn't apply- this is why he was fine shooting and killing Darkseid in the comics when Darkseid was about to destroy the universe, as Darkseid is wholly and purely evil), or go into the other direction and make him another of Arkham's tragic figures.
The alternative is to make him something like BTAS where he's evil, but not so evil that he's some kind of outright Satanic figure like Darkseid like so much media takes him to the extent of being. Then it's at least not totally unreasonable that Batman could believe Joker is still human enough to potentially be reached, even without evidence.
There's no balance really to strike Joker is meant to be chaotic and pure evil.
The reason the Joker works well against Batman is because they really polar opposites. Batman is an empathetic man. He even has sympathy for some of his rogues and even helps them at times.
Making the Joker sympathetic destroys why he works so well.
What if these sympathetic stories are just stories Joker made up like the one he gave Harley?
The Joker is one of those rare characters of fiction that never needs a backstory. They never satisfy who he eventually becomes. He works better as something that just exists.
Always liked how they did it in the Christopher Nolan movie. He has a bunch of origin stories just to drive home the point that his origin doesn't matter. There is an infinite number of ways a man can be broken and this one is.
The Joker never have an identity either he has a lot of names in different iterations (Jack Napier, Joe Carr, John Doe, etc.).
@@deadlypandaghost He's not just another "man," I guess is the heart of my comment. He should just be an oddity, an anachronism in Gotham; a singular undefinable entity that exists to just bring misery. He's something Batman can never solve or figure out. If anything, Joker is the very embodiment of what Bruce Wayne wants Batman to be; an idea that transcends his own physical limitations. Joker just 'is' and any backstory detracts from that.
I like the ''Jack Napier '' backstory... And it's barely even one.
the only real backstory that works is BTAS's and i will die on that hill tbh. he's just a scumbag who got an easy way to reinvent himself. even then it doesnt explain much, like if he's really insane, how he survives all the time, all that is still just kinda...there.
I think Joker having once worked in organized crime actually does work as a solid contrast to the chaotic clown he is now. It's why I prefer Paul Dini's backstory in Case Study to The Killing Joke.
Oh man, I was going to mention that Black and White short in the video but completely forgot! 😨
@@SerumLake It's all good chief. Glad to be talking with you again. I've gotten back into a DCAU mood as me and a couple friends are planning on binging several different batman continuities, ranging from 66 to the new Matt Reeves iteration. It's honestly quite exciting.
@@SerumLake please make a video for the history of the Batman Beyond villain named Cuvier from the Batman Beyond Season Two Episode titled Splicers please
@dougwalker8068 I also like that idea too. Some people are just bad to begin with.
A spot of hope that is crushed just it shines in its brightest... gotta love Alex Ross' art there too. That guy knows his deconstructive-reconstructive comic book iterations to otherwise familiar heroes.
While I'm tired of the Joker being overused, I will admit that when done well, he can be very entertaining.
“I’m tired of the Joker being overused.”
Join the club.
Yeah, I'm a massive fan of the Joker myself but even I am kind of tire about him at times because he's just not that great in many recent versions (looking at you Suicide Squad Kill the Justice League).
@@dikastederook6380frankly I'm just tired of post Heath Ledger Joker interpretations.
I'd like it if the next LA Joker is closer to just being the silly clown making dumb jokes while still being a (comedic) threat
One underrated moment that I think does a great job illistrating your point is in the episode Harlequinade. When Joker's going to nuke Gotham to get all his eniemies at ones, Mayor Hill asks about all the innocent people that will die. Joker doesn't go into some great speech about society or showing them who they really are inside, he simply replies "some Joke on them, eh? Think of it as the ultimate Punchline!" He does the most dispicalble things because he just finds them funny and that's a lot more scary to me.
Same I really liked Joker he is my favorite villain due to how scary yet funny and complex he is
man does it for the funny
Honestly want the next few years to dial it back with him and go back to his more comedic side.
The Joker in BTAS is the embodiment of "We do just a little bit of trolling".
@@poweroffriendship2.0 ayyyy if it isn't a bonified youtube legend
My favorite origins for Joker were the ones where he wasn’t a victim of society or a family man with a tragic story, it was the ones where he was already a deranged lunatic who just needed that bad day to trigger his true evil. You’re not supposed to like or sympathize with him, he’s a character meant to be feared. That especially works perfectly with the kind of Batman story where he wants to help and rehabilitate his villains. The Joker is the one he cannot fix because he wasn’t broken, he’s just evil plain and simple.
Exactly.
Yes!
That's why I love Jack Nicholson's Joker. He was a mob man before he was the Joker. He was messed up to begin with.
No...He wasn't born evil,like Michael myers there is a point where their lives changed.
i mean bob kane even wishes he (and finger) did that
My favorite bits with the Joker are when he just completely loses it and drops all pretense of being a clown and just straight up kills someone. Like Return of the Joker's "You're not Batman!" line followed up by him just trying to choke Terry out. He so desperately likes to pretend he's above it all and he's got it all figured out.
The Joker is the natural nemesis for The Batman. Batman is methodical, disciplined, trained, researched, purposeful. The Joker represents the chaos and absurdity of life, which all of those things epitomized by Batman can never truly overcome.
The hell are you talking about? The Joker is just as methodical, disciplined, researched, purposeful as Batman, the only thing missing is training and Return of the Joker showed what a joker with Bruce's training is capable of.
@@Vishnu_Karthik Its more of different philosophies, I dont think he meant that Joker literally doesnt have a plan.
I prefer Joker being pure evil, he's not meant to be a victim like some of the other villains, to me it makes more sense that he was always a bad guy with no redeeming qualities rather than him being a normal guy before he became The Joker.
What if these sympathetic backstories are just stories he's made up for people?
@@nathenewendzel7806 Well he does make up fake stories a lot, he did lied to Harley about his past in Mad Love.
Maybe the reason he's so insistent on proving all it takes is one bad day is so he can convince himself he wasnt always a monster.
Yes, that’s exactly it
@SerumLake the _Rock of Ages_ storyline in JLA ran with that interpretation. Martian Manhunter manages to telepathically force Joker back to sanity for a minute, and Joker is utterly horrified at who he is.
What did you wanted to prove? That everyone is as ugly as you? You're alone
The Joker's ambiguity and irredeemable evil makes him terrifyingly iconic. He does not need a backstory, he just malicious and relishes it. There's a similar character in Bleach that undoubtedly took some queues from this monster clown. Tokinada Tsunayshiro, a high ranking member of a powerful noble family who just wants to see the worlds enveloped in chaos while being utterly cruel. He uses his status as immunity and laughs as he tortures and kills. He also enjoys playing mind games with others, bringing up past failures or hypocrisies before suddenly threatening them. Sometimes there's no need for a backstory or sympathy, just evil will do.
I like the idea of knowing just enough about the Joker's origins, but he should stay somewhat mysterious and shouldn't always be a tragic figure.
Agree not every character needs one especially one as mysterious as the Joker. Don't care if the guy was the inventor of the drug that beat cancer or had a ranch of homeless animal's before he became the Joker evil is evil period
Same the only thing thing that confirmed should be he seemingly part of a small gang with a red hood. But nothing else before that is known
I love that DCAU Joker gets progessively more evil and scary as his chronological appearences progress. He's a pretty Silver age/Romero esk Joker in Christmas with the Joker and Last Laugh. To Be a Clown is more creepy just because of the overlooming threat to an unsuspecting child. Joker's Favor and Laughing Fish is where the tone of the character really shifted and the suggestion that this Joker is a killer is really inforced, while not explicitly stated. Mask of the Phantasm and Mad Love are really the next major stepping stone. Showing how depraved and abusive he can be. Of course the major culmination is Return of the Joker, which makes Death in the Family seem friendly family. At least in the comics this was just a spur of the moment thing he thought to do. But what Joker did to Tim was well planned out, done slowly, and greatly enjoyed every step of the way. You can tell in Joker's monologue to Bruce just how much he's savoring every torterous word to him.
Joker probably started planning the torture and mind rape of Tim as soon as 2003. During the Cadmus Arc
The Joker is a prime example on a great usage of "Evil for evils sake" trope. Not all villains need a tragic backstory or a deep reason as to why they are doing things. In the cases of pure evil, the past does not matter, what matters is the now and gettin that greatest of duels with their sworn nemesis, or finalizing that one big plan for the simplest of reasons.
In a similar sense there have been many people who have gone to do various things just to see what happens. Whether those be the "I wonder what happens if I fire the airsoft gun at my foot" or the ones who ponder "what makes the fridge work". One will have a visit to the hospital, the other will have a broken fridge. Same goes for those who know what will happen, but do it anyway to see it happen. Regardless of the end result.
Another way to make this effective is to make the evil character just as capable as the protagonists. He doesn't just die off or defeated in one story, but a recurring one.
In the Killing Joke, loved the line Joker has "sometimes I remember it one way, sometimes another. If i have an origin I like it multiple choice". Love the idea of no origin and he keeps making one's up when he needs one
I’ve heard it theorized that he just doesn’t remember the truth in that regard
Pretty sure New 52 Joker commits suicide after Batman tells him his real name.
That's because his creators Jerry Robinson, Bill Finger and Bob Kane hadn't thought of one.
@@darlalathan6143 the lore excuse is that he doesn’t remember the truth
I remember in a DVD extra that a writer said whenever the Joker does something really horrible but you laugh at it you're definitely on the right track when writing him. I absolutely love how this show portrayed that side of Mr J, and with Mark Hamils masterful voice work, he'll always translate into a portrayal that has such gravitas... It makes you smile.
Hmm, who's this writer?
To me, the greatest summation of Joker as a being in the DCAU was in Batman Beyond Return of the Joker when Bruce responds to Terry when he asked if Joker was his biggest villain by saying "It wasn't a popularity contest. He was a psychopath. A monster." The way I have always interpreted the Joker is as a force of nature, not a representation of the mentally ill. Joker is completely aware of his own actions and basks in the glee that causing carnage and misery brings him.
With this realization it only becomes a massive plot hole as to how the heck did DCAU Bruce manage to avoid realizing this guy DID NOT DESERVED TO GO TO ARKHAM but instead a maximum security regular _prison_ where he would rot for the remainder of his life sentence without ever harming, traumatizing and brainwashing (Tim gets his happy ending) anyone ever again?
@@javiervasquez625 The law was what kept sending him to Arkham. Though considering Arkham eventually got condemned I wonder if Joker ever did get sent to another jail, and probably broke out of that one too.
@@WhiteFangofWar The "law" in DCAU Gotham is either too corrupt, incompetent or outright stupid not to notice the sheer evidence for Joker's sanity to send him to Arkham every time he carried out another city wide killing spree. Gordon should be ashamed for sucking at his job at such a monumental level after failing to realize the impossible prospect that a crazy person could ever kill so many people with such intelligent planning and organizing on the side.
True enough but one thing he has in common with Ra’s for as above it as he may present himself. He is neither fearless or invincible.
In addition to his confrontation with Charlie and the creeper, in one of the tiein comics Batman explains the problem of a joker made from the batman and joker surrenders and basically orders Harley to take a bullet for batman the joker fired.
As much of a threat as he is, he’s not a force of nature at most he’s a wrench in the machine of society.
@@WhiteFangofWar DCAU Gotham's Law Enforcement are the definiton of incompetence if they see how explicitly sane this guy is to organize his many crimes and killing sprees and somehow rationalize he must be an insane person in need of therapy. Gordon should be ashamed for his incompetence and Bruce should admit guilt for failing to contact the _right authority_ to properly process such a deranged terrorist as Jack Napier.
The Joker craves an audience to be shocked and awed at him. Sure he could'a killed Andrea but then he wouldn't get to hear her reactions. The funeral for Batman (and Sydney) was just him coming up with a good bit for Harley and his grunts and once it's over, break for lunch!
The guy even ripped off Mad Hatter and made three comedians almost ruin their lives by forcing them to become costumed villains because a year ago they mocked him routine at a comedy show he went to in disguise. And at that year's contest after making fun of their situation, he drops the disguise and just steals the trophy even though the crowd liked his routine. The man is compulsively committed to The Bit
...it's this compulsion that paints his weakness very, very clear. He **needs** to be the star of Gotham's real life horror story. When his favourite 'hobby'Charlie Collins almost killed him in some alley or when he's standing, pantsed in front of a crowd who are laughing AT him, when he's being yelled at by Ivy, Hatter and iirc Crane at the end of Joker's Wild because he changed the channel in the Arkham rec room showing his most recent defeat **and** the fact he was whipped up into a fury to blow up the titual casino for an insurance scheme-that ALMOST worked if Bats hadn't told him
He wilts like his fake flower at the idea he's being looked down on
And eventually, in the Return of The Joker film for Batman Beyond, this attitude bit him in the arse...TWICE.
Very well said (and also kinda spoiled my follow up video, but it’s all good! 😂)
In short, the world ultimately forgetting about him would be a godsend. It even clarified in Batman: Arkham Knight... you know what they say, and in films like The Book of Life and Coco, *you can't truly kill anyone unless and until they are completely forgotten.*
The Joker is one of those rare characters where his background can be fluid enough to fit the story and be whatever kind of role the narrative needs him to be, but also doesn't require any sort of background whatsoever - he simply just is. The BtaS version strikes the perfect balance of chaos between malevolence and devil-may-care.
Jack Nicholson and Heath Ledger walked this line pretty well, while Joaquin Phoenix was almost a different genre entirely. Jared Leto just belongs in a pillory somewhere. Cameron Monaghan did a great job, even if the series writing became garbage pretty quickly and he maybe aped a little too much Ledger at times.
But no one can touch Mark Hamill. Not a single other animated version has even come close. Most are just annoying or pale imitations.
Agreed about Mark Hamill. Other Joker actors are all well and good (for the most part!) but none will dethrone him.
@@sonzillamariocraft I absolutely did. He is one of the worst, in my opinion. His voice doesn't fit.
@@stephaniemarkey9396 Bad take , ngl. His Joker was one of the best parts of The Batman 2004.
Hamill is of course the best but DiMaggio is a close second for me.
@naiveparsley2917 I think his performance hits all the right notes in terms of characterization. Kevin Michael Richardson is a very talented voice actor. But his voice, to me, doesn't fit. He isn't the worst though. The worst in my opinion is Troy Baker, also a talented voice actor, but not a good fit. John DiMaggio was a little jarring at first, because when I hear him it's hard not to think of Jake or Bender, but he grew on me.
You’re absolutely right. The Joker was never anything but tragic or sympathetic. He was as Poison Ivy described, a psychotic creep. Born from the darkness itself. The clown acid bath, simply gave him an identity. As Batman put it in return of the Joker. “It wasn’t a popularity contest. He was a psychopath, he was a monster”.
Another bit of evidence to backup your assertion that joker’s obsession with Batman is secondary is in Batman beyond return of the joker, when the joker says to Bruce “I suppose I should salute you as a worthy adversary and all that, but the truth is I really did hate your guts.”
Joker, A Villain obsessed with his own Self-Satisfactions and desires of being written in the History Books
The first one is basically luke in a nutshell during the outro
It doesn't need to be in every video
this and the '89 movie's take on the Joker were the only ones that ever made sense to me. The Joker is not some sad little weepy boy who hurts people cuz he's all broken up inside and wants to lash out, he's a bully and a monster at heart and getting disfigured just meant he didn't have to pretend to be "normal" about it anymore.
The only relatible thing about the Joker should ever be is that he isn't immune to making bad jokes. Every so often, you'll get a cornball in there. A pun so terrible that a shrug or a groan from the viewer is sure to follow.
Joker works better when he's just a irredimable monster. Not some poor soul who became a villain out of tragedy like Freeze or Two Face but a madman who enjoy the suffering of others. This helps the moments Batman has to save Joker's life even more intense. It's clear the Joker is beyond redemption, there's nothing on him that worthy saving. Letting him die could seem like the best option to create a better world. But Bruce can't do it. He knows that it's not up to him to decide who gets to live or die, even a monster like the Joker. It shows the strenght of Batman's compassion and his dedication to his core values.
So batman has compassion for Joker but no compassion for the future innocent people he will kill?
@@eskanda3434 If people of Gotham know the Joker is such danger, then he should got the death penalty. It's not up for Batman to decide who gets to live and who gets to die. That's up for the law and the people it represents.
@@eskanda3434 Plus, even if Batman killed the Joker, those future innocent people would still be killed by other villain or event that Batman couldn't stop. He's just human and death comes to anyone, soon or later, in any shape or form. In any scenario Batman would still have to deal with loss. At least his way allows him to fight crime without corrupting his morallity and turning him into a villain like Mr Freeze or Ra's Al Ghul.
I personally don’t mind when Joker has a sad origin, it’s always tracked with my personal interpretation of the character that he is someone who went through a degree of suffering in some form or another. I like it best however when the nature of his origin is still left a mystery and that regardless of what it is that doesn’t detract from his insanity or make him out as a tragic figure.
I kind of think interpretations like The Killing Joke, Nolan’s TDK, and BTAS mesh that concept very well, they establish Joker did (or at least probably did in the case of Ledger) experience a degree of suffering but we’re shown through the victims of Joker’s ploys that simply being put in a bad situation isn’t enough to make every normal well-meaning person snap. Joker may have had a bad day but that doesn’t rationalize or humanize the actions and decisions he took after that.
He wasn’t a good man turned bad he was a bad man turned worse.
Bats was relieved when Tim Drake killed Joker because he was finally gone, and he didn't have to do it.
Joker's stories and personality prove that BTAS (and animation as a whole) is not inherently less effective than live-action. When I watched these shows as a kid, and even now, I never thought of them as lesser than live-action. They were just good stories. In fact, I still argue that these stories work better in animation because of how the animators are able to better express the emotions of the characters on screen as well as the psychological imagery that the story requires. If this show doesn't prove that animation can be just as good (or even better) than live-action, I don't know what will.
Anybody who would say the DCAU is a lesser story than live-action is wrong on at least multiple dozens of levels.
Agreed, Joker is much more effective as a cynical nihilistic monster who merely tries to convince anyone who will listen that he is a tortured soul. In fact his use of multiple freudian excuse stories indicates that he finds the entire concept of 'one bad day' worthy of mockery. *Nothing* is sacred to the Joker. He trolls at Harvey Dent's identity disorder, Penguin's ego-boosting extravagance, Ivy's environmental concerns, and of course Harley's genuine desire for his affection. He considers them all pale imitators to him, Batman's one true nemesis.
As a former online moderator, he's even easier for me to hate.
And Jared Leto LOL. That's a good one and insanely accurate
We need more villains like the Joker. All of the shows I've watched in recent years seem to be obsessed with redeeming villains. It's getting old, and fast irredeemable villains need to make a comeback
Owl House had a doozy of an irredeemable villain.
@@HobGungan Oh yeah Emperor Belos is someone who the more is revealed about him, the worse he becomes. A true monster with delusions of grandeur. Who similar to the Killing Joke lies to himself about not being a monster.
Horror movie villains are also Irredeemable You got (Freddy Krueger, Pennywise, Chucky, Valak, Michael Myers and other Slashers) They show no redemption or regrets on their actions.
@@fabianramos6033 Hell Yeah! Love those guys! Freddy is my personal favorite!
As a comic book fan growing up, I never ever bought into the idea of The Joker as a sympathetic figure before his transformation, I've always preferred him as someone who was already evil and just fully embraced the madness once he dropped into the vat of chemicals. The fact that Batman is partially responsible for helping to turn him into the monster that we all know makes their dynamic even more deeper and wild
I love both depictions of him, the sympathetic joker and the pure evil joker. As long as both are done well, of course
Adding to what you said, a villain having a sympathetic backstory and being nigh irredeemably evil are not mutually exclusive. So I still say both can be possible at once for the Joker. One recent example of this, which I found very well done, was the plot twists involving the Nowhere King’s backstory in “Centaurworld”.
Basically, there are a lot of tragic and sympathetic parts of the Nowhere King’s backstory. But then he becomes so bent on causing two worlds full of innocents to suffer and die for his own pleasure, that he loses all the protagonist’s sympathy. Also, it becomes clear that the Nowhere King always had some of those vices, plus his own torment and transformations were ultimately self-inflicted anyway. By the time he is defeated, he ends up dying without any redemption too.
The only sympathetic version of Joker that I felt worked was Telltale; he was still somewhat violent and homicidal but he's actually trying to be a good person, and his friendship with Bruce is INCREDIBLY tragic.
Agreed. It was the exception that proved the rule.
Hamill’s Joker will always be THE Joker in the same way Kevin will always be THE Batman.
Mark Hamill's Joker was the Original Perfect Joker. He was the One that i think Truly Inspired the Idea of Heath Ledgers Joker. Pure Evil, No Background, an Incarnation of Chaos itself with a Ton of Mysteries!
I also never liked giving him a name. I like how the 'Phantasm' script just refers to him as 'The Tall Man' in flashback scenes. Apparently they planned to show a surrealistic flashback of his origin when Bruce realizes who he is, but never animated it for some reason. "The Tall Man falls into an impossibly wide vat of green chemicals. The chemicals SWIRL and BOIL, filling the screen. Suddenly it turns into a swirling surrealistic jumble of purple and green colors, out of which erupt various objects of Joker-related imagery -- playing cards, chatter teeth, Harley, laughing fish, murderous robot clown toys, and finally a gigantic image of The Joker himself, evil as sin and LAUGHING to bust a gut."
People who take the "one bad day" line at face value miss the point of the Killing Joke, I feel. To me, the whole point of Killing Joke was that Joker's whole claim is a lie he tells himself to justify what he does. He needs to believe that he became what he is because of a terrible event to be comfortable with his own actions, but the narrative does not justify that, because Commissioner Gordon does not break and become like Joker. What Alan Moore posited was that you don't just become a crazed killer just because of tragedy. Joker was probably not a great person even before whatever terrible event made him the Joker. It didn't do good things for his mental health, clearly, but he wasn't just some otherwise normal person who suddenly went violently insane because of a single event.
I had a whole thing about this that I meant to say in response to the Killing Joke, but I could never get that comment to post. It kept giving me an error - often a sign that your comment has something that whatever automated system TH-cam uses has determined you've violated their policy. I suspect it didn't like that I talked about the history of police violence against the mentally ill, but I really have no idea for sure.
Ah, would love to hear what the Joker himself would say about the "Server 404" error.
@@michaelandreipalon359 He'd probably laugh.
i dont know, there are a mountain of examples of "one bad day" being the driving force behind a lot of real world violence. on a public scale, not individual.
as to why gordon didnt break, realistically speaking, each mind is going to handle trauma differently. the same event might give one person lifelong PTSD, but for another it might just be another tuesday.
and not to get too focused on it, but we do know gordon, generally speaking. he's been shown to have strong willpower, and we know from his circumstances and job that he's not one to let personal trauma jeopardize things in an emergency. i'm not ssaying he can't break, just that because the joker is completely incapable of understanding gordon's mind, it's impossible for him to do the breaking.
and to be clear, none of this means that your point, this is a lie the joker tells himself, is not also true.
What makes The Killing Joke fall flat for me is Mr. No Name's wife, Jeannie. She's pregnant and living in the ghetto with an unemployed husband who is trying to make a living with a hobby that he isn't even good at. She should have told him to either beg for his job at ACE back or start flipping burgers at the Gotham Grill. Just making a woman laugh and being good in bed is NEVER enough. Her and their unborn child's death may have been traumatic, but HE led those events to their end, not "one bad day." All that doesn't turn one into a criminal mastermind overnight.
@@RoosterMontgomery I think you miss something critical to the story here. The backstory the Joker tells most likely isn't true. It's an elaborate fantasy he came up with to make himself feel more justified in what he does. Because deep down, some part of him is still human and in the moments when his mania quiets, he still feels haunted by his own actions.
When it comes to BTAS keeping the Joker evil from even his origin is that it reminds people that turning to evil isn't just something that comes from tragedy. People often turn to evil because it's an easy road for them to get power and indulge in their vices.
Well I'm Glad someone finally said it facts man
Or are just born that way, to the point that there may not be a single alternate universe where they're a good guy.
I don’t know. I think he was just born evil with psychopathy, hence being a bad seed like most psychopaths and sociopaths in real life. Worst part is that the Joker probably had loving parents that he killed.
The pure joy he gets from being evil for no reason is exactly why he and Emperor Palpatine are my favorite villains in all of fiction! I absolutely *love* his portrayal in "Harley Quinn! The way he quickly said "Harley!" to The Scarecrow's "impossible choice" and then he took off laughing with Batman on his heels had me rollin'! Not to mention when later on The Scarecrow removed his cowl and absolutely ruined The Joker's fun! How can you not love this guy?!
I personally like both psychopathic irredeemable Joker and a more sympathetic version of him, like the one from the Joker 2019. I think it's better that both exist, so we have a choice which we think is better for some contexts and which is better for others.
And both Joaquin Phoenix' performance and Mark Hamill's are absolutely gorgeous, they really do make the character come alive.
I agree with you. I feel like it's important both versions exit. I feel this is why Jerome from Gotham is the best take on him. You feel sorry for Jerome but he's also terrifying because you know what he's capable of and because he truly does not give a fuck if you show him sympathy. Which shows how far gone he is.
I think one thing worth noting is that, if the Joker had been the one to kill Andrea Beaumont's father, he wouldn't have hesitated to kill her on the way out, laughing and smiling the entire time. Instead, Jack just calmly walks away, unconcerned. His job at the time was just to kill her father, not her. While the Joker takes joy in causing as much death and destruction as possible, for "Jack", killing was just a part of the job, and he only did it when the job called for it. Professionals have standards, I suppose.
The more I see pre-Joker Jack Napier, the more I realize.....
Man, they really used 1960's Jack Nicholson as a model for gangster Jack. Just look at 7:22, and tell me there isn't a resemblance!😂❤
I love the idea that the tragic story of the Joker as a man who was pushed over the edge by “one bad day” is a completely made up story by him.
Another way to mess with his victims, making them believe that maybe just maybe there is still some shred of humanity left deep within him.
When in reality Joker is, and always has been, completely irredeemable.
Something else that is interesting about the Harlequin is that it's not just the name of a kind of jester. Back in the olden times, there were life-size mannequin-like puppets that were also called given the name Harlequin.
Honestly, 'Jack' suits him just because four Jacks and a Joker or two can be found in a deck of cards.
Yes, I'm going to intend the pun.
Also Jack Nappier’s name almost sounds like Joker. A kind of acronym missing the o. Just take out the j k and er out of the name.
As much as I love Jack Nicholson, Heath Ledger, and Joaquin Phoenix performance as the Joker but the DCAU Joker will always be the definitive version of the character in my opinion.
It's poetic how Mark Hamill portrayed both the harbinger of Light as Luke Skywalker, and the most devilish of evil as the Joker in my lifetime.
Great video, Luke. BTAS Joker stands apart from the tragic vilians you mentioned. As you said, even his game with Batman isn't really that important to him. I consider him and Roland Daggett to be the most reprehensible BTAS villians, both devoid of any redeeming qualities whatsoever. In addition to the way the character is written, Mark Hamill's voice acting brings home how demented he is.
Oh yes, Mark Hamill’s performance adds a great deal to the character. He’s easily the best Joker actor out of them all in my eyes.
John Dimaggio and Kevin .Michael Richardson are pretty good Jokers in their own right.
@@zemox2534Especially Kevin. Ah, The Batman 2004 is still quite something.
I like that Joker was basically the only villain in the series who's origin/first meeting with Batman is never shown on screen. By the time the show started, him and Batman had already been enemies for some time before, so we can't sympathize with who he was because we don't know anything about him. The closest was in Mask of the Phantasm but even then we don't know much about him besides that he worked for the mob
“ He has no qualms with murdering people, he enjoys inflicting despair and misery on others..and he likes apples.”
Truly, a man I can relate to
"I like him already!"
I think what most people forget (Specially with recent Retcons) its that the Joker isnt exacly a Tragic Villian in The Killing Joke. Yes, his backstory is reveal there but The Joker makes very clear that he isnt a reliable narrador, so every flashback in The Killing Joke isnt exacly real.
I onow this was retcon with The Three Jokers due to... Spoilers... But even then, the original intention was that he isnt reliable
Oh yes, absolutely. It’s just a shame that so many comic writers after this seemed to forget that!
Basically, the writers are like Harleen Quinzel the psychiatrist?
@@michaelandreipalon359 Depends on What you mean by that. But i would say Its more like The Writers Are like The Joker and The Readers Are like Halley.
Joker is the best example of a villain that doesnt need backgrounds or have to be sympathetic. He just have to chaotic and well written.
Brainiac: " Were you born evil? "
Lex Luthor: " No human is born evil . . . except, of course: "
*shows him a picture of the Jack Napier*
Lex Luthor: *scowls in disgust.*
I don't think anyone, not even Jack Napier, is born evil. As the prison chaplain in A Clockwork Orange said: "Goodness comes from within. Goodness is chosen. When a man cannot choose, he ceased to be a man." Jack chose to be evil because it suited him better than being good. Becoming The Joker was just the final stage of his evil life.
@@RoosterMontgomery
No, I agree. It's just a meme.
There was a comic I read once, it had the joker before his transformation as a hitman or something like that, but more importantly a sociopath.
He was good at his job but would often mess things up just so things would be more entertaining for him,
The job he was doing at the chemical plant was almost over, him and his associates had snuck it and if I remember correctly had what they were looking for, but the man who would be joker was board because things were too easy, so he intentionally raises an alert, which results in him fighting off security and the police while smiling and laughing, before encountering batman and getting knocked into the chemicals.
All the chemicals did to him were change his perspective a little and free him from his obligations, one of the first things he comments on after climbing out of the river, is he looks at the moon and says it looks beautiful tonight.
Joker when you laugh with him: 😂
Joker when you laugh at him: 🤬
A lot of things influence us and guide us to the people we become. But as agents with free will, we are ultimately accountable for our actions. No backstory, no matter how tragic, would justify the monster that the Joker is. And that fact liberates the character from the need for any backstory at all.
Really great video! I agree with you on multiple points.
One quick correction: In Batman #1 we actually do get a hint at Joker’s backstory. He chooses one of his victims, Judge Drake, because he sent him to prison, showing he was a criminal well before he became the Joker since his first appearance.
My personal headcanon is that the Joker isn't really mad or mentally ill at all. Sure, we can label him as narcissistic, having anti-social personality, and a bunch of other stuff, but imo he is none of that, not in a clinical sense. Everything he does is performative, even his so called madness, he is a perfectly sane person that does horrible acts because he likes it. He doesn't need help in Arkham, he needs to be put on Blackgate.
Even if he was abused as a child it doesn't necessarily make him a sympathetic villain in the real world there are serial killers that had abusive childhoods that doesn't mean they're sympathetic
Now for Lex Luthor.
He’s coming!
@@SerumLake "Brainiac, I'M -CUM- COMING!"
@@SerumLakeHe's what?
@@averageexistenceenjoyer3950It's what Luthor said to Brainiac
@@SerumLake YAY!!
I always liked the idea of the joker just being the run of the mill mobster before becoming the joker,
“Some of Hollywood’s finest actors… and Jared Leto.”
I don’t think even Firefly could’ve inflicted that kind of burn.
The truly scary thing about the Joker is that he's a reflection of a type of people that we have to occasionally deal with. There are some people who really do just enjoy being mean and nasty. But they're such a divergence from the vast majority that society in general doesn't want to believe that they're just horrible people.
Honestly I get older I like the idea of an evil Joker as opposed to a tragic or truly insane one. Now that doesn’t mean we can’t have both but I think part of what makes Joker so fascinating and fun is that he twists the truth to serve his purpose. That’s something every Joker has in common, tragic or otherwise. He might even fool himself to get through the day. I think the problem with making him fully tragic is it downplays his actual villainy. Real crazy people don’t do what he does, he’s a criminal mastermind. The pity we have for him is another layer of manipulation he uses to fool everyone like Harley or even Batman.
Allegedly Frank Miller and Alan Moore use to have this debate all the time with Frank Miller arguing pure evil and Alan Moore claiming Joker is Batman’s dark reflection. I use to support the ladder’s theory but I’m now definitely believing in the former.
A huge reason for why Jack Horner was so "liked".
He was just irredeemable. No sad backstory or anything.
As, like with real life: Some people are just... "broken" in a way that *cannot* be fixed.
Ah, the one in Puss in Boots: The Last Wish? That movie sure has grown on me in a manner not encountered since Shrek 1 and 2, plus Kung Fu Panda 1 and 2.
Jack Horner was so refreshing to see considering animated Theatrical movies rarely do pure evil or near pure evil villains.
The batman black and white short story "Case Study" by Paul Dini and Alex Ross sums up the joker for me the best. He's not crazy at all but simply pretending to be he's actually completely sane and is just hiding behind a veil of insanity to wage a war against Batman. I like to think that since Dini wrote this story it's interpretion pertains to BTAS Joker as well.
my favorite part of all these videos,"TELL ALL YOUR FRIENDS ABOUT ME!!" it just throws me off every time.. great job on this one though
I concur with the idea even before seeing this video. Not every needs a tragic backstory same a hero needs a tragic backstory to invoke a sense of justice and duty. Just an intriguing motivation for their actions can provided enough.
I think the Joker can be a tragic figure as long as you center the tragedy correctly: he did not become a monster because of tragedy, but rather the tragedy is that someone with as much potential as the Joker is a monster. He's a genius who regularly matches wits with Batman and Lex Luthor, he formulated a chemical that makes people laugh so hard they fall into a coma or die, etc... but he has always chosen to use these talents for evil because he's a narcissist and sociopath.
Falling into acid just gave him an excuse to go mask off.
Like the Joker relating to Harley... or his making a successful mob hit, your video nails it. Well done!
It's interesting to me that the least complicated of villains are oftentimes the most misunderstood
There's no denying that the Joker is a malevolent madman, the Moriarty to Batman's Holmes. An unrepentant homicidal maniac who gets his giggles by his acts of crime, ranging from larceny to murder.
Still, thanks to Mark Hamill's excellent voice acting, the Joker's my favorite of all of Batman's rogues gallery. His lines cracked me up, and that laugh...oh my God, that laugh! You don't know whether to be creeped out or laugh along with him. Mark brought the perfect balance of menace, insanity, and hilarity to the Clown Prince of Crime.
12:03 I will never get over his arched back walk, it's so unnecessarily extra 🤣.
Personally, I don't think anything compares to his portrayal in the Arkham Asylum graphic novel from 1989, truly a terrifying read for the young and relatively new reader.
No actually a lot surpass that Book...
The joker casino episode is my personal favorite btas episode because you get to see joker going from being angry about his likeness being stolen too low key admiring the fact that people are willingly having money stolen from them, even musing to himself that he should just take it over and retire, and then reverting back too wanting to blow the place up once batman shows up.
It shows that he's still got a somewhat shrewd business mind locked away inside his broken psychopathic personality.
I like the idea the Joker has no background. Just like Batman's identity is a secret to the characters, the Joker's identity is a secret to the audience. It works within the framework of Joker being the opposite of Batman in every respect
What I like about the Joker is his origin and real identity don't matter. It's been shown that almost anyone can become him. And if one dies, another can simply take his place and it won't matter that they're not the original. Sometimes the Joker was created through accidents, or by the Joker creating more like himself with chemicals, surgery, or even just blood infusions since his blood carried his mutation and part of his own personality somehow. In the comic books, Batman found out he was fighting three Jokers for years instead of one. And after two of them died, the third couldn't even remember if he was the original or not. In another comic, Joker created a carbon copy of himself through surgery and hypnosis. This man later feuded with the original Joker. And in the end you don't know who killed the other. Just that one of them lived. I like to think it was the copy who'd won. Because the original Joker had given up on Gotham when Batman chased after Harley instead of saving him. But the copy Joker didn't have that problem. The copy Joker was funnier and more loyal to his minions too.
I think the joker having multiple origins can actually work to fit into his character - they're all lies.
Although if there had to be a single definitive origin, I think a combination of both the crime family & one bad day merged into one would be the best route to go.
Make him always have been evil, but still go through such a horrid event, that it just makes him more dangerous, evil, twisted.
Save the sympathy for Harley, Joker is at his best when he's just pure twisted evil. He never could know heartbreak, because he was always heartless.
The only person besides himself that he should have ever cared for, was Batman, in his own deranged way.
Love the fact that when Batman battles the Joker, the less he feels sympathetic, he feels towards him.
Another masterful essay, congrats
The multiple choice backstory was also later (and nicely) utilised in The Dark Knight when Heath Ledger Joker told multiple stories about how he got his scars.
As I’ve said to you many times, I wish they’d stop having him laughing and playing pranks all the time. I think he’s much better when there’s a disconnect between his rictus grin and his disturbing behaviour. Jack Nicholson’s version is probably my favourite because the whole clown thing is pretty arbitrary - he”s got playing cards in his hat, for some reason - and his ‘clownish’ behaviour manifests more in a sort of toddler-like distractibility and vicious whimsy. Most of the time his laughter seems intended to underline the fact that what he’s doing isn’t funny at all, and THAT’S the joke. Nicholson often used to claim it as his best work and I probably wouldn’t argue with him (I do not wanna get nuts).
I always loved how the animated series followed the Burton series and made Joker a mobster. It makes so much sense how Joker would have these connections to the criminal underworld and his many heists. The animated series expanded on the Burton origins and I prefer it that way. It showed that the Joker was already a messed up person to begin with, it was just the vat of chemicals that made him a go crazy.
i think my favorite idea of an origin story for the joker is the same one the joker prefers, that he has no definitive origin story other than falling into the acid as The Red Hood, as he's said himself, "If i'm going to have a past, i prefer it to be multiple choice!" - (The Killing Joke)
Like Marvel, DC has a multiverse full of different versions of characters, including the Joker. The sheer malleability of the character is what makes him so fascinating.
This version is undeniably the most influential of the modern era, inspiring other versions that have their own unique qualities to their villainy.
Making him only one way wouldn’t be very interesting as his manic tendencies makes him a complete mystery and in a lot of ways, far more dangerous.
That makes him infinitely scarier. He could reasonably be anyone. Driven mad.
if I could I would change the order of events. With Joker still being a comedian when he was younger but that then eventually leading him to become Gangster when he gets older. This way the show gets the best of both worlds.
14:16 I can hear his laugh!
I Can Hear His Laugh!!!
Joker is always best when he is pure evil, chaos, mystery reasons why BTAS and Heath Ledgers versions are so well received! No sympathy, just fun, chaotic mystery behind the smile
great stuff!!
keep up the great work!
BTAS joker probably knows his origin . He knows that he fell in acid in Beware the creeper , and he recognises Sal Valestra as his former boss . Actually, the first reason why he murdered Sal was because he might’ve known his former identity , and needed to get rid of him before police or Batman found out about him .
It's also possible that his mob nickname when he was still jack napier was "the joker" because he had a sick sense of humor or would always be ready with some gallows humor laced comment when he was doing evil things.
There was one real high flyer in the chicago outfit named Joseph "Joey The Clown" Lombardo who was well known for having a disarming sense of humor and cracking jokes all the time, even when he was killing people and cutting them up.
Makes ya want to laugh. Doesn't it Artie?"
The Joker is 6'5" & 191lbs in canon & I hate that more often than not, The Joker isn't depicted as taller than Batsy in comix or live-action.
Joker works better as a monster from the start than a tragic villain. Where the likes of Two Face, Mr Freeze, Harley Quinn and so on were once good people pushed over the edge by madness or tragedy a person could only become like The Joker if they were messed up to begin with.
Loved this video, you did a great and genuine job here analyzing the Joker's persona.
Definitely going to subscribe this channel as well.
Thank you and welcome aboard
I just got a Joker shirt, how fitting, and he is truly a well written monster.
One of the last real villains who people don't like or didn't like coming up him and Harvey dent are legendary
This was WONDERFUL, thank you very much! TAS so totally reinvented a ton of Batman's rogues, and INVENTED Harley Quinn, having an amazing effect on the entire franchise. Mark Hamill's performance, especially against Kevin Conroy, is iconic for a very good reason. The Joker's self-obsession and self-mythologizing is undercut and exploited SO PERFECTLY in the Batman Beyond movie, Return of the Joker, when Terry just absolutely DESTROYS him verbally at the end. I'm so glad I found your channel-- Time to dive into your archives.