"Hello, Tim" "Hi, old man" That small exchange is so gut wrenching, yet oddly heartwarming. Both are old men past their prime, Bruce especially, but Tim's still a kid compared to him. Edit: i know this was Dean Stockwell's only DCAU outing, but his understated, yet heavy delivery does wonders for older Tim. RIP
@@zemox2534 Heh, and it could be worse. Look what happened to the Arkhamverse Batman, not figuring out about Arkham City's Clayface and Barbara's "death" in Arkham Knight.
Tim: I'm not talking about killing Penguin, or Scarecrow, or Dent. I'm talking about "him", just him. And doing it because... because he took me away from you.
Leave it to the DCAU to outdo Death in the Family, which is one of the darkest moments in comic history for the time. In the comic, beating/killing Robin seemed to be this spur of the moment thing for Mr J, but you can tell Joker spent so much time meticulously planning this. He planned every minute detail of how he would present this to Batman and you can tell he’s enjoying every second of it.
@@sicksadworld765 He died to a punch line. And while it was an unexpected punch line, it was still a punch line. I absolutely prefer Tim shooting the Joker dead to the censored version, even if the censored version is technically more violent.
It fits well with the Joker’s now-notorious “one bad day” thing. He’s a corrupting influence, a force of entropy that defiles and ruins everything and everyone he so much as stands close to. Killing Robin would have been one thing, but it’s a whole other to scar the Bat-Family by corrupting and just... violating Tim like that. As Barb herself says, he left an indelible mark on them all that they would never be able to reconcile, even as an OLD MAN, Tim is still deeply traumatised by it for God’s sake. And then Joker has the cheek to use his body as a new set of wheels. For a long time he genuinely did kind of win in just how badly he screwed up the Bat-Family, which is what it makes it so satisfying and cathartic to see him finally get the dressing down and humiliation that was LOOOONG overdue. Whatever you might say about Terry as a Batman, you can’t deny that he was instrumental in helping the gang start genuinely walking past that trauma, and he’ll always have my respect for that.
Kevin Conroy said reflecting Tim Curry's brief time voicing the Joker: "He was Joker like terrifying and lock up the children and don't let them watch." Yet I never understood why Mark Hamill Joker has a reputation for just being a clown, especially during Return Of The Joker and what he does to Tim Drake. That's very much don't let the kids watch kind of moment. Mark Hamill doesn't get enough recognition for his range.
tbf that was probably the initial staff reaction during BTAS iirc hamill considered phantasm the moment he got his groove into making him more “psychopathic”, which would slowly peak by return of the joker
@@juliagoodwin9510Fun fact, this wasn't the first time Tim Curry was casted as the Joker, he was also casted in the 1989 film with Michael Keaton, before Jack Nicholson.
I know Tim in the DCAU is not 100% faithful to the comic book version but I still love him as a character. He endured so much pain and tragedy, but still found strength to move forward. I honesty believe Return of the Joker is better than death in the family because the consequences are more servere and traumatic. There are fates far worse than death, and what Tim endured was far worse than being killed. Even in death, The Joker would continue to torment Tim. But thanks to Terry, Tim finally got a happy ending.
Batman Beyond: Return of the Joker uncut version especially Out Family Memories has always stayed with me. Legitimately disturbing and upsetting what The Joker and Harley Quinn did to Robin.
I actually like to think that Harley wasn’t involved in the torture or at least not directly and was too delusional to realize what was happening Idk it just feels out of character for her to do something like that after watching episodes like Harleys Holiday etc. they gave her all that character development and portrayal as a sympathetic weirdly adorable messed up person throughout the series for nothing I love the movie but this always bugged me
@@sicksadworld765There is a theory that she only did this so to try retrieving the stolen tech by orders of Amanda Waller and Task Force X. The Watchtower Database explains it more.
@@michaelandreipalon359 it‘s a cool theory but it also feels out of character tbh and is a bit of a stretch. I doubt that she would ever betray Joker as long as he shows her the slightest bit of affection. Harley is super submissive and would do almost anything to please him. And her genuinely wanting to have a family while the Joker wants to psychologically destroy Batman makes more sense to me. Her motivation to be a criminal and be Harley Quinn started and died with the Joker.
@@sicksadworld765someone was holding that camera (Joker signaled it to go up in its first scene). Also Harley downplayed what happened when Batgirl called her out (“So he roughed the kid up a little, but I’ll make it right”). This movie was well before the push to make Harley more heroic and less involved with Joker’s more heinous acts in comics. It’s fair to believe that THIS Harley Quinn, who captured Tim on the first place was in on it.
@@Marsh388 I thought about that too but I still don’t believe that she was involved in the torture🤷♂️ I guess she was „just“ behind the camera (that’s already messed up enough) and doing house work while the Joker tortured him. I strongly doubt that Joker would even allow her to touch anything in that room, even if she wanted lol And I think that she downplayed it because she’s A super delusional and B still pretty much brainwashed by the Joker at this point. As long as he shows her the slightest bit of affection, he can’t do no wrong in her eyes and everything is just a joke. That’s why she immediately stopped crime after bro got smoked Idk the writers often showed her as a quite nice person „Good guy like you shouldn’t have bad days“🥺 and more like an anti hero in episodes when she’s not around the Joker, taking place before this movie. So the idea of her becoming a good guy at some point was always intended This is still the same Harley from episodes like Harlequinade, Harley Holiday etc. and who later reformed in Batman Beyond. That‘s why it feels so out of character, to me at least H.Q. from the Arkaham series would‘ve 100% done it tho
ngl i always considered TNBA drake to be an ideal jason todd in a sense it’s like how the Spider-Man treated the venom symbiote in the show compared to the comics
Tim Drake is my second favorite Batman sidekick in the comics he was the only Robin that didn't have a sad backstory, he was intelligent and had great detective skills who can complement Batman way better than Damien. The DCAU version isn't bad either but was basically Jason Todd with a PG rating.
I think it's interesting to note the shift in attitude in fans between back then and today; I can totally buy that naming the BTNA robin Jason would have had a negative effect on the perception of the new series, even if i think it would've faded with time. It was honestly a smart move to signal this character won't have the same problems as the one in the comics. But cut to today's audiance and they would honestly be genuinely excited for a new take on Jason, if the existing one didn't already happen. Besides just merely growing older, the average fan has both a lot more understanding of the creative process process, and access to every comic ever written with a character. Rather then merely picking up a comic, seeing this new robin be poorly written, and basing their entire opinion on the character based on that, the average audience member, especially for comics nowadays, can easily get a fuller grasp of the majority of characters without much trouble. It's easier to see potential and ideas, and the popularity of Fanfiction, especially retcon fanfiction, shows off a desire to act on it. I mean, could you imagine a comic series mainly about the bat family or Spiderman and Mary Jane doing well in the 80s or 90s? Yet they're both the most popular current series with the characters nowadays. I just think its interesting to note the aspects of the DCAU that are period specific, more specifically the narrative and creative aspects that are period specific.
I'm surprised that you didn't mention Knight Time from Superman The Animated Series where Tim helps Superman who's dressed as Batman. Brilliant episode
The challenge with the Tim Drake Robin is that he feels too much a reaction to Jason Todd’s death and wound up seeming like another carbon copy of Dick Grayson, with only minor tweaks in back story. He’s not the first Robin. He’s not the Robin who died and he’s not Batman’s son. He doesn’t have his own unique hook. Tim in DCAU is a more likeable Jason - not a hardened bitter teen - and he has the comic book Tim’s fannish devotion to the original Batman and Robin team
Fun Fact: When BTAS aired on Fox, Robin was aged up because of the network's rule against putting children in peril (though you probably knew that). But The WB has looser standards and when TNBA aired there, they were allowed to show Robin as a kid (among other stuff that wouldn't pass on the Fox network such as showing characters bleed). But funnily enough, this kinda makes Bruce look bad in a way. As Doug Walker said in his video on the series, having Bruce recruit someone younger makes him look like "worst parent of the year". Lol.
@@thegreatacolyt1277 For it's more mature shows, I guess. My best guess is that for their kid shows, they had more stricter standards. But, of course, that's going to be a given for any network.
Stan Lee hated the idea of kid sidekicks, also stating that the cops would bust the hero for child negligence. Guess that's why Spiderman, the X-Men and The Human Torch were heroes in their own right. They knew the risks going in!
1:09 I believe the image is from the cover of a story called _A Lonely Place of Dying._ I remember it vividly because it was the first _Batman_ comic book I ever purchased. With two weeks' pocket money, from a terrible 7-11, in autumn, 1989. My 7-year-old self was perplexed by the grim and bloody tale I found in that slim volume. Much more so than by that summer's blockbuster, which my parents had forbidden me to see. I think that's why I never managed to become a serious collector of superhero books: There was never any obvious place to jump on.
Yes, that is a problem comic books have had for a looooong time. I remember my jumping on point with Detective Comics was right in the middle of a multi part crossover story with the Penguin in it. It was very confusing, so I went back to the comic shop to track down the other parts of the story. Even after reading them, I was still pretty lost, but I had enjoyed them, so I tracked down more back issues.
@@SerumLake PLEASE, you, and EVERYONE, if you haven't already, embrace the One True Only God YHWH Jehovah, Only One Jesus Christ His Only Begotten Son and Lord and Savior of our souls and the Only One Holy Spirit. God is good. God is love. Jesus is Lord. Jesus IS coming. Your soul depends on it! I have seen God act in my life. He saved my soul, changed my heart, changed my mind, helped people through me, took care of people in my life, people I hurt before I found God. God is the only reason I was able to reconcile with my dad before he died. God worked through Jesus Christ to save our souls. Jesus Christ died on the cross for our sins. Believe in your heart and confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus, and that God raised Him from the dead and you will be saved. Be baptized in The Holy Spirit, and if He wills, water as well. Repent of your sins, accept God, Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit into your heart, that Jesus Christ died on the cross for your sins. For God so loved the world that He gave His only Begotten Son Jesus Christ, that all who believe on Him should not perish but have everlasting life. Jesus Christ is The Way, The Truth and The Life. No one comes to the Father Jehovah God but through Him. Not long after I got saved I prayed to God for help understanding the Holy Bible, and that same day someone knocked on my door asking me if I wanted to understand the Bible. The Holy Bible says, "love thy enemy", "turn the other cheek", "If your enemy is hungry, feed him", "if he is thirsty, give him a drink", "pray for those who persecute you", "do not repay evil for evil". LORD willing, all humans may commit sin of almost every kind (gay, straight), and that's wrong, and all humans sin, as God tells us through the The Holy Bible, "for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and all are justified freely by His grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus." The Holy Bible also says, "If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness."
Imagine if they did thinking 'Yeah, nobody stays dead in comics"... And they then saw they actually killed Robin... Only for Jason to resurrect years later.
From what I've heard (and I'm well aware that this could just be an urban legend), a significant chunk of the "Death" votes came from an auto-dialer set up to keep calling that number. If that's true, someone _really_ had it in for Jason. And was probably furious when he inevitably came back.
NBMA Robin is Tim Drake in name only. The only reason they didn't name him Jason Todd was because the shows creators didn't wanna name him after a kid we all know gets killed by the Joker.
1:51 the idea of phone polls to influence media such as comics and certain TV shows of the time is honestly super interesting and while there probably are more shows that've done something like it I can't think of any in the modern era. Maybe Total Drama Island in the first season a bit, not 100% sure though. But you'd think it'd be a stunt that'd get brought out more especially in the social media age.
Tim became my favorite version of Robin for a few years because of DCAU's portrayal of him. You really feel for what he's went through. And though I understand some comic fans thinking it was an odd decision to give him Jason Todd's backstory (especially after the latter appeared in the Batman Adventure Continues comics), it did offer up more to this character, essentially being the better Robin that Jason couldn't be.
One of the arguments against Tim/Red Robin/Codename: Drake in the comics right is that he doesn't stand out and it's kinda a hanging Chad. DCAU Tim doesn't have that issue. He also sadly doesn't have the rad feathered cape either haha😊
I never understood this ridiculous dislike towards Tim. He is the best Robin in the comics and made the role his own. He is intelligent, resourceful, and brave. There is nothing boring about him .
Jason only stole the Batmobile' hubcaps! But in an insurance commercial here in Romania the entire Batmobile was stripped of metal after Batsie turned away to place a phonecall. Also, in Return of the Joker, the Joker specified that he had stolen the genetics technology. It was only in Epilogue that an explanation was given to the origin of said tech!
Not a fan of how TNBA skip Jason Todd and then used Tim Drake (with some of Jason's aspect like his backstory) in the DCAU. Besides being very hypocritical for WB not want to use Jason bc they didn't want to adapt Death in the Family and yet still have DCAU Tim go through even so many traumatic experiences, but also, without Jason, it takes away the character development Batman goes through, with each one of the 3 Robins playing a key role in his life: Dick Grayson represents Bruce's sucess, the boy who grew to become a great hero, showing Bruce his ability to be a role model for people and be a mentor figure for others. Jason Todd is Bruce's failure, a kid he tried to help, like he did with Dick, but end up killed by the Joker and Bruce blaming himself for this tragedy, Finally, Tim Drake represents Bruce's redemption, a boy who's not only smart as Bruce and wants to be a detective (making him a perfect successor to the Batman mantle) but also is the one who helps Bruce overcome his guilt over Jason's death, and show him that he can still be great mentor and inspire the best others.
@@The_Phantasm Neither was Mr Freeze or Poison Ivy until BTAS made them popular. They could had done the same for Jason, although, as someone who read his comics during his period as Robin, I don't think would be necessary. Jason could be rebellious but not to the point of being annoying as many fans belive, having understanble and even sympathetci reasons for his behavior and actions
If you ever get the chance, you should check out the comic Batman: The Adventures Continue vol 1. It weaves Jason Todd’s time as Robin into the DCAU, provides a fantastic update as to why Jason would adopt the Red Hood identity (that I *really* wish was canon instead of Jason using Red Hood to “own” Joker) and adds another layer of tragedy to Bruce and Tim’s parental relationship.
That's the point though, at least now it is. Terry is the redemption, Terry is a very different person from anyone else in the Batfamily, but he proves that Batman CAN work in a healthy way even if it's hard.
@@warioskapelli3100 I actually read those comics and wasn't a fan. The way it tried to add Jason to the DCAU mythology felt very forcefull and poor attempt to change a continuty plot point that was already way too established by that point.
When it comes to which Robin suffered more at the hands of The Joker, I would definitely say Tim Drake did much more than Jason Todd ever did as at least he went down fighting but poor Tim went through terrible emotional torture that no young child should ever endure. The flashback scenes in Return Of The Joker was definitely the DCAU's darker take on Death In The Family but taken to the extreme. To turn Tim into a junior version of The Joker was far worse than killing him and even if he didn't know this, he played a very cruel part in breaking up the bat family. Out of all of the sidekicks, Tim got the full brunt of Joker's abuse as at least Barbara and Dick got to walk away on their own terms, I felt that while Bruce forbade Tim from ever wearing the Robin suit, he was never fully the same again and pretty much had his whole dream cruelly ripped away from him but at least he got to have a wife and family, something that Bruce sadly never got to have. Thanks for covering Tim Drake and giving him some well deserved love. He's my all time favourite Robin
" I am not interested in killing Penguin, Scarecrow, or Harvey, just him! JUST HIM!!! Because he took me away from you!" - Jason Todd ( Batman: Under The Red Hood)
So because I haven't seen anyone else reference it i thought i would share a fun fact about death in the family. It was mostly the work of one reader who thought it would give batman more depth if jason died, he set up a machine to call and answer over and over so with how close it was he probably is the main reason it happened.
Also Frank Miller writing Jason Todd to be dead in Dark Knight Returns 4 or 5 years before Death in the Family because Miller personally didn't like the idea of Robin.
From all I know, Kevin Conroy's childhood was much more similar to Tim's than to Bruce's - not that his father was killed, but he did say there came a point when he realized he couldn't depend on him and he had to fend for himself.
I always assumed when they referred to 'Robin's original costume' they meant that it was an earlier, smaller costume Dick wore but grew out of and had to replace with the one we see in BTAS. We don't really see Dick as Robin before the college years, and Tim is much younger and therefore smaller than college-aged Dick. So, Dick apparently had two suits as Robin. Maybe?
You know, thinking about it in retrospect, I wonder if what happened to Tim flashed through Bruce's mind when Terry first stole the suit. When he froze it up, and those thugs were beating him to death... Did he think of Tim?
In Batman: the adventure continues comic they introduce Jason Todd/Red Hood. And they explain why the robin costume colors are in black, red, and yellow which is their version of under the red hood.
Harley helping the Joker to kidnap Tim still feels super out of character to me. I mean she was still brainwashed but still💀 Her delusional ahh wanting a family and trying to “make things right” and genuinely thinking that they’re gonna be “one big happy family” is actually more disturbing and tragic than the Joker doing this to psychologically break Batman and destroy the Bat Family (and succeeded) Especially after episodes like Harleys Holiday etc. I wonder what she did after Jokers demise and how she felt about this since we see her reformed and normal at the end of RotJ.
there is a fan theory that she was on a mission for the Suicide Squad at the time (in more recent DCAU comics, she was recruited by Amanda Waller to join Taskforce X), which may also explain how she survived the Return of the Joker flashback.
@@SerumLake I thought that the official explanation for her survival was the injection Ivy gave her earlier in the series which made her basically “indestructible” and more resistant in general Or she had some grappling gadgets on her I still wonder how they acquired her costume, who the father of her child was etc.
@@SerumLake I thought that it was confirmed by the writers that she survived due to the injection but I’m not that deep into the lore so idk It would make the most sense to me
Agree with you 100 percent that Holiday Knights works best as a series finale, which is how I prefer to watch it! The last ep produced is Judgment Day and the last ep aired is Mad Love - neither of which have the best tone for a farewell number
I think TNBA is better off almost in airdate order, with Mad Love being the penultimate ep before "Holiday Knights", due to both stories initially being The Batman Adventures comic book specials.
Love that he's Latino/Hispanic (German, Spanish, Mexican, Native American) like his main voice actor. But I guess if you include his other child voice actors and the adult version he's a whole nondescript mixed bag 😹
11:18, this. . . this edit. unnerves me. its just that mad cackle at the end. . . its like joker's laughing at what hes done from beyond the grave. laughing in victory. . . such a small edit, with such power in it. my gosh. . . a great overview serum. well done.
Respect goes to his voice actor. Finding good child actors particularly voice actors can be tough. Mr. Eli really made the character his own and he got better writing which made him more tolerable than Dick during his tenure. Dick just screams, Hello fellow kids. Tim Drake was a good robin in the DCAU and I looked forward to seeing him when I watched back on Kids WB. I was born too late for the Fox kids era but came in just in time for that transition of Kids WB to Cartoon Network syndication.
Totally agree with the flashback in Return of the Joker being the DCAU version of Death in the Family. And I know this isn't your style, but there's a part of me that, during the recap on Jason, thought it'd be funny to see a clip from an episode of The Brave and the Bold, where Bat-mite is describing Death in the Family, and ending it by saying "Guess how I voted".
To be fair Batman Beyond is essentially a dark future. Like compared to the uplifting ending from JLU, it absolutely does not feel like the same world and honestly it shouldn’t really be treated as such if you want to represent what each stood for. There was even early talk about creating some sort of time split to more clearly define it as an alternate world. Batman Beyond is awesome but it runs into the big problem with essentially an elseworld story being pushed to mainstream audiences, the show itself becomes mainline and nearly dug its way into become apart of the mainline comic universe simply because of popularity.
I really wish Two-Face wasn’t the mobster in Tim’s debut episode! 😭 it undies the development Two-Face had in ‘Second Chance’, also did they really need to bring back Clayface? I feel like his story could have just ended with Mudslide, both episodes are good, I just wish they acknowledged the sympathetic sides of those mentioned villains
PLEASE, you, and EVERYONE, if you haven't already, embrace the One True Only God YHWH Jehovah, Only One Jesus Christ His Only Begotten Son and Lord and Savior of our souls and the Only One Holy Spirit. God is good. God is love. Jesus is Lord. Jesus IS coming. Your soul depends on it! I have seen God act in my life. He saved my soul, changed my heart, changed my mind, helped people through me, took care of people in my life, people I hurt before I found God. God is the only reason I was able to reconcile with my dad before he died. God worked through Jesus Christ to save our souls. Jesus Christ died on the cross for our sins. Believe in your heart and confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus, and that God raised Him from the dead and you will be saved. Be baptized in The Holy Spirit, and if He wills, water as well. Repent of your sins, accept God, Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit into your heart, that Jesus Christ died on the cross for your sins. For God so loved the world that He gave His only Begotten Son Jesus Christ, that all who believe on Him should not perish but have everlasting life. Jesus Christ is The Way, The Truth and The Life. No one comes to the Father Jehovah God but through Him. Not long after I got saved I prayed to God for help understanding the Holy Bible, and that same day someone knocked on my door asking me if I wanted to understand the Bible. The Holy Bible says, "love thy enemy", "turn the other cheek", "If your enemy is hungry, feed him", "if he is thirsty, give him a drink", "pray for those who persecute you", "do not repay evil for evil". LORD willing, all humans may commit sin of almost every kind (gay, straight), and that's wrong, and all humans sin, as God tells us through the The Holy Bible, "for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and all are justified freely by His grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus." The Holy Bible also says, "If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness."
You can head-cannon that Two-Face's plan in "Sins of the Father" was to make the money to help him with his plans of taking over the mafia. Or just see as a tragedy that his bad side was winning in the moment. And, definitely "Mudslide" is the perfect conclusion for Matt Hagen.
Blame "Two of a Kind" for Dent snapping again. Not "Mudslide", actually. His last appearance should be "The Lost Episode" cutscenes of The Adventures of Batman & Robin for the Sega CD. Highly recommend you read and watch them respectively.
I do enjoy that in the scene where Batman beats up The Joker in the projector room, the glass from the window that Batman burst through seems to be falling very slowly, almost like it's suspended in the air, This implies (to me at least) that Batman is so goddamn pissed off that he is moving at superhuman speed to beat the shit out of The Joker.
My fav tim Drake moment from the dcau is when Superman is playing Batman after Bruce Wayne was kidnapped by brainiac and Supes shows that he has Super vocal cords and perfectly mimics Tim's voice and Tim Drake just responds with "Never do that again."
The Joker took away all three classic Robins from Batman in DCAU. Dick Greyson because Batman was chasing Joker specifically when he crossed the line, Jason Todd because there was no way the censors would allow that, and Tim Drake because Joker found an even worse thing to do to a Robin than that.
13:28 I always assumed Joker had simply brought in Mad Hatter to develop the chip, since it's the exact sort of technology he'd been continuously using and refining. The DNA overwrite aspect could've been accomplished with some aid from Poison Ivy, leveraging a connection through Harley Quinn, as Ivy had already been shown at multiple points to have an incredibly advanced understanding of genetic manipulation, even creating lab grown plant humans.
True, but it could have made things unintentionally stale, making all this an overfamiliar Rogues Gallery collaboration. Hence, the "sins of CADMUS" stuff, which I adore more.
Another great video. I feel like this robin didnt have enough time to shine (outside the annie episode), and when he got his chance, it was horrific. They did him dirty. I think he was a perfectly good character, and more episodes mightve had him really be more like his comic book self. I just dont believe theres no storytelling in a healthy robin
While I'm not crazy about how they gave Tim some of Jason's attributes and story, I'm glad he got significant attention in one of the best superhero shows. Definitely hope he appears again soon in a major show!
0:27 What you mean by Second robin? I mean Show wise he was but lore wise he was still the Third thanks to Adventures Continues confirming Jason todd's existence.
Nah, The Adventures Continue is set in a parallel universe where Batman Beyond and Justice League+Unlimited seemingly never happened. Still a good read, all things considered.
Tim Drake in this ,Series reminds me so much of Jason Todd .. sadly he didn't go sll Winter Soldier lije Jsson did in the comics coming back to life and becoming thr red Hood But i find it interesting that DCAU Tim's Costume was in the comics in the mid 00s in the One Year Later Storyline.when i was reading a lot of Batman comics in the 2000s into Grant Morrison's run ( a run i still enjoy) i stopped Reading Batman by the Time of thr New 52 in 2011 . I was also reading a lot of Teen Titans in the 2000s mostly because i liked the animated series
And I still wonder how Tim didn't freak out first than Jason under Robin's costume, and Todd had to die to have that trigger, while Drake, in theory, should have been psychologically in shambles (so he wouldn't say doubtful) after the Joker and Clayface episode.
Had the events of The Return of the Joker Flashback not happened do you think this version of Tim would eventually grow up to become Red Robin similar to his comic counterpart and how in the show Dick eventually became Nightwing? I always wanted to see the dcau make a storyline that would have shown us a possible future of the dcau had the Joker Jr stuff was either prevented or never happened
Speaking of "Growing Pains." I just noticed this, but for anyone in the comments that has seen "Attack on Titan," doesn't Annie almost look Mikasa? I know TNBA was made long before Titan, but Annie almost looks like that character.
Batman was also the one who didn’t think to look for Joker in the abandoned ruins of Arkham Asylum, I’m not the world’s greatest detective, but that’s one of the first places I’d have looked.
I don't think anyone ever mentions that when Batman realized what Joker did to Tim he threw a Batarang at Joker's head. Joker almost got Batman to break his no killing rule
I think the sequence in Batman Beyond: Return of the Joker is a mix of Death of the Family, and the Killing Joke. Seeing that Joker's main goal was to break Tim.
Dick & Tim are actually my favorite Robins who grow past the role but never forget why they do what they do. Jason is my favorite in terms of what if stories (my favorite being when he decideds to destroy both Al Ghul and Wayne in the interactive dvd) As for Damien? I Fuckin hate him. I don't care that that's the point or that he changes. All it takes is someone validating his murder first mentality for him to get back on the blood soaked train of thoughts! I'm sorry but abuse is an explanation, not an excuse. He used of any and all sympathy I had for him. And the less we talk about injustice or when Raven falls for this brat? The better.
I personally didn't have a problem with how the Joker came back in Batman Beyond. I mean, remember Captain Clown? The Joker literally made a freaking robot all by himself, so there's no telling how smart he actually is.
@@SerumLake While possible, context implies otherwise. When Batman destroys Captain Clown, the Joker is furious. The Joker doesn't get that angry when Batman breaks things that the Joker stole, or even when people beat up Harley Quinn, but he does tend to get angry when someone breaks things that the Joker made himself or he feels belong to him. So, that anger implies that Captain Clown was built entirely by the Joker.
@@SerumLake Good. I think it's a reasonable thing to be curious about. I mean, the entire HARDAC saga made it clear that the androids made by the AI were far ahead of anything anyone had seen at the time, and while we'd see much more advanced tech in Superman and Justice League, BTAS was mainly 1920s-1940s era tech outside the "Super Science Of The Week" stuff. In the comic books, the Joker's actual level of intelligence seems to vary, but he has pulled off some impressive feats. In the Dark Knight Returns, the Joker had human-ish robots that he used to spread poison gas during the late night talk show incident, and they were capable of speech, so it is something that he has demonstrated the ability to do in the comics. It might not be a bad idea for a video one day, discussing just how smart the BTAS and Justice League Joker actually is, comparing it to things the Joker has done in the comics.
@@SerumLake In the movie Return Of The Joker, Joker says that he'd "pinched here and there" the technology, so him stealing it was always the case in the DCAU. Epilogue just said where and/or who he'd stolen it from.
Robin in The New Batman Adventures definitely doesn't deserve the abuse he gets especially when he gets captured by The Joker and Harley Quinn by turning him into a Mini Joker. Robin definitely deserves better than this plus I feel sad for him since Annie sacrificed herself to save Robin from Clayface and now she's gone.😬
Both Tim and Annie did more or less end up together in another timeline shown in the Justice League The Savage Time Part One in Resistance Batman as they played with each other
In a sense, I actually think the JL: Doom movie could be a partial rendition of those offscreen events, just like its predecessor Crisis on Two Earths should fit as a JL and JLU interquel.
Abused, yes, but a good kind of character abuse in a storytelling sense. Think Max Payne from his first game all the way to the third game, set on a worldline after the bad ending of the second game. 3:47: A buncha cartoons back in the day sure didn't have proper introductions until later, or at least don't need to do that anymore. Respective examples are The Real Ghostbusters (introductions come later in the last eps of Season 1 with "Citizen Ghost") and Spider-Man: The Animated Series (no need to show off the hero's origin story; besides, we're more likely to have seen the definitive Sam Raimi take nowadays so to familiarize us with Spidey) Guess Shifty depended way too much on Metropolis' boy scout being almost always around to save the day. 4:57: Bet the "Two of a Kind" comic made him snap. 5:19: At least we got to see DCAU Tim's ascended fanboy side here. That element felt underused in the cartoon canon. 5:48: Yes! Even The Lost Years suggested that! 6:38: He's also the perfect audience surrogate for anyone who hadn't read The Batman Adventures Annual 2 - "Demons" before watching this ep, "The Demon Within". 6:50: As long as it's not another Willow Rosenberg x Tara Maclay. *(shudders)* 7:08: The perks of being unshackled from Fox Kids. Sorry, Spider-Man: The Animated Series. 8:14: Suspected to be the aftermath of "The Lost Episode" cutscenes of the Sega CD version of The Adventures of Batman & Robin video game, NOT B: TAS S1E52 - "Mudslide". Surprised you didn't show off his last appearance in Static Shock S4E1 "Future Shock". He's noticeably older and starting to be rebelliously disillusioned to Batman, not unlike Dick Grayson before him... If there are two good notes I can say for Batman: The Adventures Continue Elseworlds-ish comics, it's that they brought back "Annie" in a testy manner against Tim, and the implication that the tragic events of Batman Beyond will never even ever happen. Wish the showrunners were more foresightful with their timelines. The Return of the Joker flashbacks (possibly set in 2007) just feel inappropriate with Static Shock's older Tim Drake in mind (possibly 2000-2002, which is also the Justice League pre-Unlimited timeline). Say what anyone will of the Batman Beyond 2.0 comics, at least they nailed the fact that Barbara Gordon almost immediately retired from the Batgirl persona after the RotJ flashback incident. I wonder if Batman's involvement with the JLU slowly but surely decreased after 2007. Would explain why he seems like a lone wolf in "Rebirth: Parts 1 and 2". (Even more so in case the offscreen Near-Apocalypse of '09 had a partial rendition of the contingency events from the JL: Doom movie... perhaps he finally retired if not kicked from the League and replaced by his older, more capable semi-apprentice Static?) 12:23: And his wife being implied to be the DCAU's Stephanie Brown. One must wonder if she too is an ex-vigilante, considering her being Spoiler in other universes. 12:49: Batsy should have double checked. Oh, the wonders of Project CADMUS' gloried technology and science. 12:59-13:27: Interconnected storylines like X-Men '97 better take notes. It should later explain the jarring absence of the Avengers and Defenders, how Captain America was rescued from the interdimensional void in Spider-Man: TAS, how the Summers family was completely separated, and more. Oh, and same goes for theoretical stuff like a Gravity Falls/Amphibia/The Owl House sequel saga. Who knows if the Los Angeles Frog-Vasion in Amphibia would lead to their take of Project Achilles/CADMUS and use it to confront Gravity Falls, the Boiling Isles, and so on. (What, I'm a continuity nod+cavalcade nut, with a penchant for wanting consistently gripping shared universes. Don't judge. People like Dwayne McDuffie did the same, and I'm honored to be akin to him.) Really hope to also see Lobo's appearances in the tie-in comics and even the apocryphal webseries.
🍻🎉🥳ANNIE MENTION WOOO Buuut yes, DCAU Tim Drake, basically his own entity. Like you said, Tim basically turns into the abuser that abused him. For systems like myself, this would be known as an "introject", or factive. An alter formed after one's abuser that continues the abuser's work. Obv that's usually directed inward towards the system again, and not usually outward in Tim's case, but it is interesting the real world parallels. Sometimes we've wondered if Annie were to ever manage to regain consciousness again, would it be after Tim's already gotten that happen to him? They're both trapped in bodies with an abuser/villain that hurts others as a result.
Common misconception: The phone calls that killed Jason weren’t from the fans. Turns out, someone set up a robo-call on the Let Him Die number. Meaning that the actual Batman fans wanted Jason to live. (Edit: Nevermind, turns out it was just a rumor.)
![พบรัก - INK WARUNTORN x FELLOW FELLOW [LIVE SESSION]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/1VonHhP6_Y8/mqdefault.jpg)
"Hello, Tim"
"Hi, old man"
That small exchange is so gut wrenching, yet oddly heartwarming. Both are old men past their prime, Bruce especially, but Tim's still a kid compared to him.
Edit: i know this was Dean Stockwell's only DCAU outing, but his understated, yet heavy delivery does wonders for older Tim. RIP
Not bad of a performance coming from the hologram pal of Quantum Leap.
"Tim is tortured and abused over the course of two weeks..."
It was actually three weeks. Regardless, Tim really did get the raw end of the deal here.
Not one of the Greatest Detective's brightest moments, taking too long to know about the ruined Arkham Asylum.
@michaelandreipalon359 No one is perfect, dude. He is human and has human emotions
@@zemox2534 Heh, and it could be worse. Look what happened to the Arkhamverse Batman, not figuring out about Arkham City's Clayface and Barbara's "death" in Arkham Knight.
@@michaelandreipalon359the world's greatest detective couldn't find hid son in time. Some real poetic shit ngl.
@@michaelandreipalon359I find it hilarious that Batman finds out about the fake Joker in Arkham City a second before Joker reveals it anyway.
Tim: I'm not talking about killing Penguin, or Scarecrow, or Dent. I'm talking about "him", just him. And doing it because... because he took me away from you.
Leave it to the DCAU to outdo Death in the Family, which is one of the darkest moments in comic history for the time. In the comic, beating/killing Robin seemed to be this spur of the moment thing for Mr J, but you can tell Joker spent so much time meticulously planning this. He planned every minute detail of how he would present this to Batman and you can tell he’s enjoying every second of it.
Fr
Bro literally prepared a power point presentation just to fumble the bag and die in an anticlimactic way 3 minutes later😭
@@sicksadworld765 He died to a punch line. And while it was an unexpected punch line, it was still a punch line.
I absolutely prefer Tim shooting the Joker dead to the censored version, even if the censored version is technically more violent.
@@Queen3210 Pushed him in a water tank, ruined his fit, slipped and electrocuted himself
Had that man looking goofy😭
It fits well with the Joker’s now-notorious “one bad day” thing. He’s a corrupting influence, a force of entropy that defiles and ruins everything and everyone he so much as stands close to. Killing Robin would have been one thing, but it’s a whole other to scar the Bat-Family by corrupting and just... violating Tim like that.
As Barb herself says, he left an indelible mark on them all that they would never be able to reconcile, even as an OLD MAN, Tim is still deeply traumatised by it for God’s sake. And then Joker has the cheek to use his body as a new set of wheels. For a long time he genuinely did kind of win in just how badly he screwed up the Bat-Family, which is what it makes it so satisfying and cathartic to see him finally get the dressing down and humiliation that was LOOOONG overdue.
Whatever you might say about Terry as a Batman, you can’t deny that he was instrumental in helping the gang start genuinely walking past that trauma, and he’ll always have my respect for that.
Kevin Conroy said reflecting Tim Curry's brief time voicing the Joker: "He was Joker like terrifying and lock up the children and don't let them watch." Yet I never understood why Mark Hamill Joker has a reputation for just being a clown, especially during Return Of The Joker and what he does to Tim Drake. That's very much don't let the kids watch kind of moment. Mark Hamill doesn't get enough recognition for his range.
I read rotj as return of the jedi
tbf that was probably the initial staff reaction during BTAS
iirc hamill considered phantasm the moment he got his groove into making him more “psychopathic”, which would slowly peak by return of the joker
As cool as Tim Curry would have been... Mark Hamill *IS* the Joker.
@@juliagoodwin9510Fun fact, this wasn't the first time Tim Curry was casted as the Joker, he was also casted in the 1989 film with Michael Keaton, before Jack Nicholson.
I know Tim in the DCAU is not 100% faithful to the comic book version but I still love him as a character. He endured so much pain and tragedy, but still found strength to move forward. I honesty believe Return of the Joker is better than death in the family because the consequences are more servere and traumatic. There are fates far worse than death, and what Tim endured was far worse than being killed.
Even in death, The Joker would continue to torment Tim. But thanks to Terry, Tim finally got a happy ending.
He is 100% faithful. To the Jason Todd Robin
Except he was not blown up
Batman Beyond: Return of the Joker uncut version especially Out Family Memories has always stayed with me. Legitimately disturbing and upsetting what The Joker and Harley Quinn did to Robin.
I actually like to think that Harley wasn’t involved in the torture or at least not directly and was too delusional to realize what was happening
Idk it just feels out of character for her to do something like that after watching episodes like Harleys Holiday etc. they gave her all that character development and portrayal as a sympathetic weirdly adorable messed up person throughout the series for nothing
I love the movie but this always bugged me
@@sicksadworld765There is a theory that she only did this so to try retrieving the stolen tech by orders of Amanda Waller and Task Force X. The Watchtower Database explains it more.
@@michaelandreipalon359 it‘s a cool theory but it also feels out of character tbh and is a bit of a stretch.
I doubt that she would ever betray Joker as long as he shows her the slightest bit of affection. Harley is super submissive and would do almost anything to please him.
And her genuinely wanting to have a family while the Joker wants to psychologically destroy Batman makes more sense to me.
Her motivation to be a criminal and be Harley Quinn started and died with the Joker.
@@sicksadworld765someone was holding that camera (Joker signaled it to go up in its first scene). Also Harley downplayed what happened when Batgirl called her out (“So he roughed the kid up a little, but I’ll make it right”). This movie was well before the push to make Harley more heroic and less involved with Joker’s more heinous acts in comics. It’s fair to believe that THIS Harley Quinn, who captured Tim on the first place was in on it.
@@Marsh388 I thought about that too but I still don’t believe that she was involved in the torture🤷♂️ I guess she was „just“ behind the camera (that’s already messed up enough) and doing house work while the Joker tortured him. I strongly doubt that Joker would even allow her to touch anything in that room, even if she wanted lol
And I think that she downplayed it because she’s A super delusional and B still pretty much brainwashed by the Joker at this point. As long as he shows her the slightest bit of affection, he can’t do no wrong in her eyes and everything is just a joke. That’s why she immediately stopped crime after bro got smoked
Idk the writers often showed her as a quite nice person „Good guy like you shouldn’t have bad days“🥺 and more like an anti hero in episodes when she’s not around the Joker, taking place before this movie. So the idea of her becoming a good guy at some point was always intended
This is still the same Harley from episodes like Harlequinade, Harley Holiday etc. and who later reformed in Batman Beyond. That‘s why it feels so out of character, to me at least
H.Q. from the Arkaham series would‘ve 100% done it tho
ngl i always considered TNBA drake to be an ideal jason todd in a sense
it’s like how the Spider-Man treated the venom symbiote in the show compared to the comics
I like to think that the blonde woman he is married to in Return of the Joker is Stephanie Brown.
Who?
@@thegreatacolyt1277 She is the Spoiler. She was Robin after Tim Drake and Batgirl after Cassandra Cain.
@@The_Phantasm idk who she is still nor who Cassandra is. Idk batman lore
@@thegreatacolyt1277 Look it up if you want. They're really fun characters.
@@thegreatacolyt1277 Look it up if you want. They're really fun characters.
Tim Drake is my second favorite Batman sidekick in the comics he was the only Robin that didn't have a sad backstory, he was intelligent and had great detective skills who can complement Batman way better than Damien. The DCAU version isn't bad either but was basically Jason Todd with a PG rating.
Nice pfp. Is that fanart or is that canon to Justice League or something?
@@benjaminallisonii724 fan art
I think it's interesting to note the shift in attitude in fans between back then and today;
I can totally buy that naming the BTNA robin Jason would have had a negative effect on the perception of the new series, even if i think it would've faded with time. It was honestly a smart move to signal this character won't have the same problems as the one in the comics.
But cut to today's audiance and they would honestly be genuinely excited for a new take on Jason, if the existing one didn't already happen. Besides just merely growing older, the average fan has both a lot more understanding of the creative process process, and access to every comic ever written with a character. Rather then merely picking up a comic, seeing this new robin be poorly written, and basing their entire opinion on the character based on that, the average audience member, especially for comics nowadays, can easily get a fuller grasp of the majority of characters without much trouble. It's easier to see potential and ideas, and the popularity of Fanfiction, especially retcon fanfiction, shows off a desire to act on it.
I mean, could you imagine a comic series mainly about the bat family or Spiderman and Mary Jane doing well in the 80s or 90s?
Yet they're both the most popular current series with the characters nowadays.
I just think its interesting to note the aspects of the DCAU that are period specific, more specifically the narrative and creative aspects that are period specific.
I'm surprised that you didn't mention Knight Time from Superman The Animated Series where Tim helps Superman who's dressed as Batman. Brilliant episode
yeah, great episode, but I cut it out for time. Absolutely recommend it to anyone even remotely interested in Robin.
@@SerumLake I understand and respect your reasoning. Just wanted to make sure we're on the same page. 🤣🤣🤣🤣 Great content
The challenge with the Tim Drake Robin is that he feels too much a reaction to Jason Todd’s death and wound up seeming like another carbon copy of Dick Grayson, with only minor tweaks in back story. He’s not the first Robin. He’s not the Robin who died and he’s not Batman’s son. He doesn’t have his own unique hook. Tim in DCAU is a more likeable Jason - not a hardened bitter teen - and he has the comic book Tim’s fannish devotion to the original Batman and Robin team
Fun Fact: When BTAS aired on Fox, Robin was aged up because of the network's rule against putting children in peril (though you probably knew that). But The WB has looser standards and when TNBA aired there, they were allowed to show Robin as a kid (among other stuff that wouldn't pass on the Fox network such as showing characters bleed). But funnily enough, this kinda makes Bruce look bad in a way. As Doug Walker said in his video on the series, having Bruce recruit someone younger makes him look like "worst parent of the year". Lol.
I thought fox was supposed to be a mature channel
@@thegreatacolyt1277 For it's more mature shows, I guess. My best guess is that for their kid shows, they had more stricter standards. But, of course, that's going to be a given for any network.
@@Aethon_is_here ah
Stan Lee hated the idea of kid sidekicks, also stating that the cops would bust the hero for child negligence. Guess that's why Spiderman, the X-Men and The Human Torch were heroes in their own right. They knew the risks going in!
if only they kept that requirement, why are superheroes dragging around minors to get shot at in the year 2024
J's Son. Man they really made Tim, Jason lol
1:09
I believe the image is from the cover of a story called _A Lonely Place of Dying._ I remember it vividly because it was the first _Batman_ comic book I ever purchased. With two weeks' pocket money, from a terrible 7-11, in autumn, 1989.
My 7-year-old self was perplexed by the grim and bloody tale I found in that slim volume. Much more so than by that summer's blockbuster, which my parents had forbidden me to see.
I think that's why I never managed to become a serious collector of superhero books: There was never any obvious place to jump on.
Yes, that is a problem comic books have had for a looooong time. I remember my jumping on point with Detective Comics was right in the middle of a multi part crossover story with the Penguin in it. It was very confusing, so I went back to the comic shop to track down the other parts of the story. Even after reading them, I was still pretty lost, but I had enjoyed them, so I tracked down more back issues.
@@SerumLake PLEASE, you, and EVERYONE, if you haven't already, embrace the One True Only God YHWH Jehovah, Only One Jesus Christ His Only Begotten Son and Lord and Savior of our souls and the Only One Holy Spirit. God is good. God is love. Jesus is Lord. Jesus IS coming. Your soul depends on it!
I have seen God act in my life. He saved my soul, changed my heart, changed my mind, helped people through me, took care of people in my life, people I hurt before I found God. God is the only reason I was able to reconcile with my dad before he died.
God worked through Jesus Christ to save our souls. Jesus Christ died on the cross for our sins. Believe in your heart and confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus, and that God raised Him from the dead and you will be saved. Be baptized in The Holy Spirit, and if He wills, water as well. Repent of your sins, accept God, Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit into your heart, that Jesus Christ died on the cross for your sins.
For God so loved the world that He gave His only Begotten Son Jesus Christ, that all who believe on Him should not perish but have everlasting life. Jesus Christ is The Way, The Truth and The Life. No one comes to the Father Jehovah God but through Him.
Not long after I got saved I prayed to God for help understanding the Holy Bible, and that same day someone knocked on my door asking me if I wanted to understand the Bible.
The Holy Bible says, "love thy enemy", "turn the other cheek", "If your enemy is hungry, feed him", "if he is thirsty, give him a drink", "pray for those who persecute you", "do not repay evil for evil".
LORD willing, all humans may commit sin of almost every kind (gay, straight), and that's wrong, and all humans sin, as God tells us through the The Holy Bible, "for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and all are justified freely by His grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus." The Holy Bible also says, "If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness."
This is why I prefer standalones like Batman: Year One, Watchmen, Kingdom Come, Squadron Supreme, and so on.
@@Dagenspearsir, this is a Wendy’s…
The way you edited Joker’s line from “Almost Got Him” at 11:16 gave me chills.
I feel like so many people voted to kill Jason Todd because they didn't think they'd go through with it
Imagine if they did thinking 'Yeah, nobody stays dead in comics"... And they then saw they actually killed Robin... Only for Jason to resurrect years later.
From what I've heard (and I'm well aware that this could just be an urban legend), a significant chunk of the "Death" votes came from an auto-dialer set up to keep calling that number. If that's true, someone _really_ had it in for Jason.
And was probably furious when he inevitably came back.
@@nicholasfarrell5981at least we got red hood from the hate Jason got
NBMA Robin is Tim Drake in name only. The only reason they didn't name him Jason Todd was because the shows creators didn't wanna name him after a kid we all know gets killed by the Joker.
10:52 Still the most evil thing any version of Joker's ever done.
Not even Arkham joker?
1:51 the idea of phone polls to influence media such as comics and certain TV shows of the time is honestly super interesting and while there probably are more shows that've done something like it I can't think of any in the modern era. Maybe Total Drama Island in the first season a bit, not 100% sure though. But you'd think it'd be a stunt that'd get brought out more especially in the social media age.
Showing how the suits at Hollywood really don't care about the viewers.
I cry every time I watch the return of the Joker movie when Tim is crying after he kills the Joker
11:03
Batman finally ignoring his No-kill rule
If only...
Tim became my favorite version of Robin for a few years because of DCAU's portrayal of him. You really feel for what he's went through.
And though I understand some comic fans thinking it was an odd decision to give him Jason Todd's backstory (especially after the latter appeared in the Batman Adventure Continues comics), it did offer up more to this character, essentially being the better Robin that Jason couldn't be.
One of the arguments against Tim/Red Robin/Codename: Drake in the comics right is that he doesn't stand out and it's kinda a hanging Chad.
DCAU Tim doesn't have that issue.
He also sadly doesn't have the rad feathered cape either haha😊
I never understood this ridiculous dislike towards Tim. He is the best Robin in the comics and made the role his own. He is intelligent, resourceful, and brave. There is nothing boring about him .
@@zemox2534 I like him especially in Titans (HBO Max)
That sucks Tim is my second favorite Batman sidekick.
Jason only stole the Batmobile' hubcaps! But in an insurance commercial here in Romania the entire Batmobile was stripped of metal after Batsie turned away to place a phonecall.
Also, in Return of the Joker, the Joker specified that he had stolen the genetics technology. It was only in Epilogue that an explanation was given to the origin of said tech!
Not a fan of how TNBA skip Jason Todd and then used Tim Drake (with some of Jason's aspect like his backstory) in the DCAU. Besides being very hypocritical for WB not want to use Jason bc they didn't want to adapt Death in the Family and yet still have DCAU Tim go through even so many traumatic experiences, but also, without Jason, it takes away the character development Batman goes through, with each one of the 3 Robins playing a key role in his life:
Dick Grayson represents Bruce's sucess, the boy who grew to become a great hero, showing Bruce his ability to be a role model for people and be a mentor figure for others.
Jason Todd is Bruce's failure, a kid he tried to help, like he did with Dick, but end up killed by the Joker and Bruce blaming himself for this tragedy,
Finally, Tim Drake represents Bruce's redemption, a boy who's not only smart as Bruce and wants to be a detective (making him a perfect successor to the Batman mantle) but also is the one who helps Bruce overcome his guilt over Jason's death, and show him that he can still be great mentor and inspire the best others.
Don't forget the reason Jason Todd was killed to begin with which was that he just wasn't really liked that much.
@@The_Phantasm Neither was Mr Freeze or Poison Ivy until BTAS made them popular. They could had done the same for Jason, although, as someone who read his comics during his period as Robin, I don't think would be necessary. Jason could be rebellious but not to the point of being annoying as many fans belive, having understanble and even sympathetci reasons for his behavior and actions
If you ever get the chance, you should check out the comic Batman: The Adventures Continue vol 1. It weaves Jason Todd’s time as Robin into the DCAU, provides a fantastic update as to why Jason would adopt the Red Hood identity (that I *really* wish was canon instead of Jason using Red Hood to “own” Joker) and adds another layer of tragedy to Bruce and Tim’s parental relationship.
That's the point though, at least now it is. Terry is the redemption, Terry is a very different person from anyone else in the Batfamily, but he proves that Batman CAN work in a healthy way even if it's hard.
@@warioskapelli3100 I actually read those comics and wasn't a fan. The way it tried to add Jason to the DCAU mythology felt very forcefull and poor attempt to change a continuty plot point that was already way too established by that point.
When it comes to which Robin suffered more at the hands of The Joker, I would definitely say Tim Drake did much more than Jason Todd ever did as at least he went down fighting but poor Tim went through terrible emotional torture that no young child should ever endure. The flashback scenes in Return Of The Joker was definitely the DCAU's darker take on Death In The Family but taken to the extreme. To turn Tim into a junior version of The Joker was far worse than killing him and even if he didn't know this, he played a very cruel part in breaking up the bat family. Out of all of the sidekicks, Tim got the full brunt of Joker's abuse as at least Barbara and Dick got to walk away on their own terms, I felt that while Bruce forbade Tim from ever wearing the Robin suit, he was never fully the same again and pretty much had his whole dream cruelly ripped away from him but at least he got to have a wife and family, something that Bruce sadly never got to have. Thanks for covering Tim Drake and giving him some well deserved love. He's my all time favourite Robin
I always feel Joker's final words "That's not funny..." is his epiphany of how his actions hurt others..
" I am not interested in killing Penguin, Scarecrow, or Harvey, just him! JUST HIM!!! Because he took me away from you!"
- Jason Todd ( Batman: Under The Red Hood)
So because I haven't seen anyone else reference it i thought i would share a fun fact about death in the family. It was mostly the work of one reader who thought it would give batman more depth if jason died, he set up a machine to call and answer over and over so with how close it was he probably is the main reason it happened.
Also Frank Miller writing Jason Todd to be dead in Dark Knight Returns 4 or 5 years before Death in the Family because Miller personally didn't like the idea of Robin.
@@Elfenlied8675309 i hadn't heard of that, thanks for sharing. 👍
Bro who storyboarded murderous Robin in Growing Pains. I'd love to have that cell!
It was somebody from Studio Ghibli, I know that much!
@@SerumLake 🔥🔥🔥🔥🔥🔥
From all I know, Kevin Conroy's childhood was much more similar to Tim's than to Bruce's - not that his father was killed, but he did say there came a point when he realized he couldn't depend on him and he had to fend for himself.
I always assumed when they referred to 'Robin's original costume' they meant that it was an earlier, smaller costume Dick wore but grew out of and had to replace with the one we see in BTAS. We don't really see Dick as Robin before the college years, and Tim is much younger and therefore smaller than college-aged Dick. So, Dick apparently had two suits as Robin. Maybe?
That's exactly it. Even The Lost Years mentioned that the suit Tim is wearing is Grayson's from his younger years.
You know, thinking about it in retrospect, I wonder if what happened to Tim flashed through Bruce's mind when Terry first stole the suit. When he froze it up, and those thugs were beating him to death... Did he think of Tim?
This was such a dark film. The scene with Tim and Babs is heart breaking.
In Batman: the adventure continues comic they introduce Jason Todd/Red Hood. And they explain why the robin costume colors are in black, red, and yellow which is their version of under the red hood.
Harley helping the Joker to kidnap Tim still feels super out of character to me. I mean she was still brainwashed but still💀
Her delusional ahh wanting a family and trying to “make things right” and genuinely thinking that they’re gonna be “one big happy family” is actually more disturbing and tragic than the Joker doing this to psychologically break Batman and destroy the Bat Family (and succeeded)
Especially after episodes like Harleys Holiday etc.
I wonder what she did after Jokers demise and how she felt about this since we see her reformed and normal at the end of RotJ.
there is a fan theory that she was on a mission for the Suicide Squad at the time (in more recent DCAU comics, she was recruited by Amanda Waller to join Taskforce X), which may also explain how she survived the Return of the Joker flashback.
@@SerumLake I thought that the official explanation for her survival was the injection Ivy gave her earlier in the series which made her basically “indestructible” and more resistant in general
Or she had some grappling gadgets on her
I still wonder how they acquired her costume, who the father of her child was etc.
@@sicksadworld765 all of those are possible, but there never was an official explanation
@@SerumLake I thought that it was confirmed by the writers that she survived due to the injection but I’m not that deep into the lore so idk
It would make the most sense to me
agreed, i feel that this harley wouldn't go so far as to do this to robin, especially when she has nearly broke free of jokers control before
Agree with you 100 percent that Holiday Knights works best as a series finale, which is how I prefer to watch it! The last ep produced is Judgment Day and the last ep aired is Mad Love - neither of which have the best tone for a farewell number
I actually think that Mad Love is a perfect end of the series
It’s so dark, depressing and foreshadowing what’s happening next
I think TNBA is better off almost in airdate order, with Mad Love being the penultimate ep before "Holiday Knights", due to both stories initially being The Batman Adventures comic book specials.
10:05 So then, it’s more Death of The Family than A Death in The Family.
Love that he's Latino/Hispanic (German, Spanish, Mexican, Native American) like his main voice actor.
But I guess if you include his other child voice actors and the adult version he's a whole nondescript mixed bag 😹
DCAU TIM IS LATINO???
@@Quackervoltz Yessir Andrea Romano said it herself at one of the Comic Con type panels. And of course the actor was.
11:18, this. . . this edit. unnerves me. its just that mad cackle at the end. . . its like joker's laughing at what hes done from beyond the grave. laughing in victory. . . such a small edit, with such power in it.
my gosh. . .
a great overview serum. well done.
Respect goes to his voice actor. Finding good child actors particularly voice actors can be tough. Mr. Eli really made the character his own and he got better writing which made him more tolerable than Dick during his tenure. Dick just screams, Hello fellow kids.
Tim Drake was a good robin in the DCAU and I looked forward to seeing him when I watched back on Kids WB. I was born too late for the Fox kids era but came in just in time for that transition of Kids WB to Cartoon Network syndication.
Tim had it even more rough than Jason Todd in TBAC
Totally agree with the flashback in Return of the Joker being the DCAU version of Death in the Family. And I know this isn't your style, but there's a part of me that, during the recap on Jason, thought it'd be funny to see a clip from an episode of The Brave and the Bold, where Bat-mite is describing Death in the Family, and ending it by saying "Guess how I voted".
To be fair Batman Beyond is essentially a dark future. Like compared to the uplifting ending from JLU, it absolutely does not feel like the same world and honestly it shouldn’t really be treated as such if you want to represent what each stood for. There was even early talk about creating some sort of time split to more clearly define it as an alternate world.
Batman Beyond is awesome but it runs into the big problem with essentially an elseworld story being pushed to mainstream audiences, the show itself becomes mainline and nearly dug its way into become apart of the mainline comic universe simply because of popularity.
7:41 - 7:51/ If I'm not mistaken, wasn't Annie voiced by the same actress who played Helga on HEY ARNOLD?❤
That’s right
Yeah, it was hard to tell because when she's voicing Helga she sounds so angry and loud.
"J's son" ... Woa- mind blown!
I really wish Two-Face wasn’t the mobster in Tim’s debut episode! 😭 it undies the development Two-Face had in ‘Second Chance’, also did they really need to bring back Clayface? I feel like his story could have just ended with Mudslide, both episodes are good, I just wish they acknowledged the sympathetic sides of those mentioned villains
PLEASE, you, and EVERYONE, if you haven't already, embrace the One True Only God YHWH Jehovah, Only One Jesus Christ His Only Begotten Son and Lord and Savior of our souls and the Only One Holy Spirit. God is good. God is love. Jesus is Lord. Jesus IS coming. Your soul depends on it!
I have seen God act in my life. He saved my soul, changed my heart, changed my mind, helped people through me, took care of people in my life, people I hurt before I found God. God is the only reason I was able to reconcile with my dad before he died.
God worked through Jesus Christ to save our souls. Jesus Christ died on the cross for our sins. Believe in your heart and confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus, and that God raised Him from the dead and you will be saved. Be baptized in The Holy Spirit, and if He wills, water as well. Repent of your sins, accept God, Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit into your heart, that Jesus Christ died on the cross for your sins.
For God so loved the world that He gave His only Begotten Son Jesus Christ, that all who believe on Him should not perish but have everlasting life. Jesus Christ is The Way, The Truth and The Life. No one comes to the Father Jehovah God but through Him.
Not long after I got saved I prayed to God for help understanding the Holy Bible, and that same day someone knocked on my door asking me if I wanted to understand the Bible.
The Holy Bible says, "love thy enemy", "turn the other cheek", "If your enemy is hungry, feed him", "if he is thirsty, give him a drink", "pray for those who persecute you", "do not repay evil for evil".
LORD willing, all humans may commit sin of almost every kind (gay, straight), and that's wrong, and all humans sin, as God tells us through the The Holy Bible, "for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and all are justified freely by His grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus." The Holy Bible also says, "If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness."
You can head-cannon that Two-Face's plan in "Sins of the Father" was to make the money to help him with his plans of taking over the mafia. Or just see as a tragedy that his bad side was winning in the moment.
And, definitely "Mudslide" is the perfect conclusion for Matt Hagen.
Blame "Two of a Kind" for Dent snapping again.
Not "Mudslide", actually. His last appearance should be "The Lost Episode" cutscenes of The Adventures of Batman & Robin for the Sega CD.
Highly recommend you read and watch them respectively.
I do enjoy that in the scene where Batman beats up The Joker in the projector room, the glass from the window that Batman burst through seems to be falling very slowly, almost like it's suspended in the air, This implies (to me at least) that Batman is so goddamn pissed off that he is moving at superhuman speed to beat the shit out of The Joker.
tim drake in the dcau feels like a mix of tim drake (comics) and jason todd.
My fav tim Drake moment from the dcau is when Superman is playing Batman after Bruce Wayne was kidnapped by brainiac and Supes shows that he has Super vocal cords and perfectly mimics Tim's voice and Tim Drake just responds with "Never do that again."
I still prefer the Tim Drake comics than the DCAU
The Joker took away all three classic Robins from Batman in DCAU. Dick Greyson because Batman was chasing Joker specifically when he crossed the line, Jason Todd because there was no way the censors would allow that, and Tim Drake because Joker found an even worse thing to do to a Robin than that.
And Batman beat the brakes off Joker in response. It was glorious.
At least in Batman Beyond, Tim mentions that he is happily married to *“Steph”*. Subtle and easy detail to miss. I always loved Tim & Steph 💓
13:28 I always assumed Joker had simply brought in Mad Hatter to develop the chip, since it's the exact sort of technology he'd been continuously using and refining.
The DNA overwrite aspect could've been accomplished with some aid from Poison Ivy, leveraging a connection through Harley Quinn, as Ivy had already been shown at multiple points to have an incredibly advanced understanding of genetic manipulation, even creating lab grown plant humans.
True, but it could have made things unintentionally stale, making all this an overfamiliar Rogues Gallery collaboration. Hence, the "sins of CADMUS" stuff, which I adore more.
10:56 - gotta say that I love how the lethal "BANG!" flag gun has an orange safety tip on it.
Another great video. I feel like this robin didnt have enough time to shine (outside the annie episode), and when he got his chance, it was horrific. They did him dirty. I think he was a perfectly good character, and more episodes mightve had him really be more like his comic book self. I just dont believe theres no storytelling in a healthy robin
I love tim drakie in new adventure
This television show is amazing
Jason actually exist in the Bruce Timm Universe ! He first appeared in "Batman the adventure continues" published in 2020. It was a pretty good read.
Batman Beyond: Return Of The Joker's flashback scene scarred me.
I've always believed Tim should become Joker Junior in the comics. It's the best direction for him to go.
That is the worst idea lmfao
@@abiodunsulaiman2297 Well he's a joke now so it fits.
Fly robin fly
🎶We could be herooooooes...🎶
While I'm not crazy about how they gave Tim some of Jason's attributes and story, I'm glad he got significant attention in one of the best superhero shows. Definitely hope he appears again soon in a major show!
anyone else get full body shivers watching this? really gets under your skin
Believe me, the DCAU Joker almost always gives us the willies.
I am so confused how Is Tim Drake still a child in Return of The Joker when it takes place at least 6 years after we last saw him?
He was a late bloomer, clearly.
0:27 What you mean by Second robin? I mean Show wise he was but lore wise he was still the Third thanks to Adventures Continues confirming Jason todd's existence.
Second to appear in the shows 🫡
jason todd actually existed in this universe? what happened to him?
Nah, The Adventures Continue is set in a parallel universe where Batman Beyond and Justice League+Unlimited seemingly never happened. Still a good read, all things considered.
I’m not sure if you have done this but I’d love if you could do a Clock King video
Tim Drake in this ,Series reminds me so much of Jason Todd .. sadly he didn't go sll Winter Soldier lije Jsson did in the comics coming back to life and becoming thr red Hood
But i find it interesting that DCAU Tim's Costume was in the comics in the mid 00s in the One Year Later Storyline.when i was reading a lot of Batman comics in the 2000s into Grant Morrison's run ( a run i still enjoy) i stopped Reading Batman by the Time of thr New 52 in 2011 .
I was also reading a lot of Teen Titans in the 2000s mostly because i liked the animated series
makes me cry...
And I still wonder how Tim didn't freak out first than Jason under Robin's costume, and Todd had to die to have that trigger, while Drake, in theory, should have been psychologically in shambles (so he wouldn't say doubtful) after the Joker and Clayface episode.
For all intents and purposes despite the name change...this wasn't Tim Drake at all. it was jason todd wearing tim's face/name.
Had the events of The Return of the Joker Flashback not happened do you think this version of Tim would eventually grow up to become Red Robin similar to his comic counterpart and how in the show Dick eventually became Nightwing? I always wanted to see the dcau make a storyline that would have shown us a possible future of the dcau had the Joker Jr stuff was either prevented or never happened
If Batman had supported him I’m certain he would’ve continued being a costumed hero for as long as he was able to.
Precisely.
Speaking of "Growing Pains." I just noticed this, but for anyone in the comments that has seen "Attack on Titan," doesn't Annie almost look Mikasa?
I know TNBA was made long before Titan, but Annie almost looks like that character.
Joker must have known of his impending demise somehow, stealing from Waller would have spelled the end for him anyway.
The tragedy of Annie’s life sucks and a lot of people, including myself wish she had a chance to be her own independent person
Batman was also the one who didn’t think to look for Joker in the abandoned ruins of Arkham Asylum, I’m not the world’s greatest detective, but that’s one of the first places I’d have looked.
I recall as a kid I was happy to see a Robin who was closer to my own age.
I don't think anyone ever mentions that when Batman realized what Joker did to Tim he threw a Batarang at Joker's head. Joker almost got Batman to break his no killing rule
YOU COOKED MAN!!!!
I think the sequence in Batman Beyond: Return of the Joker is a mix of Death of the Family, and the Killing Joke. Seeing that Joker's main goal was to break Tim.
Next Episode is Lobo? This’ll…definitely be interesting.
Dick & Tim are actually my favorite Robins who grow past the role but never forget why they do what they do. Jason is my favorite in terms of what if stories (my favorite being when he decideds to destroy both Al Ghul and Wayne in the interactive dvd) As for Damien? I Fuckin hate him. I don't care that that's the point or that he changes. All it takes is someone validating his murder first mentality for him to get back on the blood soaked train of thoughts! I'm sorry but abuse is an explanation, not an excuse. He used of any and all sympathy I had for him. And the less we talk about injustice or when Raven falls for this brat? The better.
I personally didn't have a problem with how the Joker came back in Batman Beyond. I mean, remember Captain Clown? The Joker literally made a freaking robot all by himself, so there's no telling how smart he actually is.
I always assumed he stole a robot from the same place he got that Submarine and just gave him a clown themed makeover
@@SerumLake While possible, context implies otherwise. When Batman destroys Captain Clown, the Joker is furious. The Joker doesn't get that angry when Batman breaks things that the Joker stole, or even when people beat up Harley Quinn, but he does tend to get angry when someone breaks things that the Joker made himself or he feels belong to him. So, that anger implies that Captain Clown was built entirely by the Joker.
@@FirstLast-cg2nk I'll ask Kevin Altieri when next I speak to him. He'll know for certain.
@@SerumLake Good. I think it's a reasonable thing to be curious about. I mean, the entire HARDAC saga made it clear that the androids made by the AI were far ahead of anything anyone had seen at the time, and while we'd see much more advanced tech in Superman and Justice League, BTAS was mainly 1920s-1940s era tech outside the "Super Science Of The Week" stuff.
In the comic books, the Joker's actual level of intelligence seems to vary, but he has pulled off some impressive feats. In the Dark Knight Returns, the Joker had human-ish robots that he used to spread poison gas during the late night talk show incident, and they were capable of speech, so it is something that he has demonstrated the ability to do in the comics. It might not be a bad idea for a video one day, discussing just how smart the BTAS and Justice League Joker actually is, comparing it to things the Joker has done in the comics.
@@SerumLake In the movie Return Of The Joker, Joker says that he'd "pinched here and there" the technology, so him stealing it was always the case in the DCAU. Epilogue just said where and/or who he'd stolen it from.
Robin in The New Batman Adventures definitely doesn't deserve the abuse he gets especially when he gets captured by The Joker and Harley Quinn by turning him into a Mini Joker. Robin definitely deserves better than this plus I feel sad for him since Annie sacrificed herself to save Robin from Clayface and now she's gone.😬
Both Tim and Annie did more or less end up together in another timeline shown in the Justice League The Savage Time Part One in Resistance Batman as they played with each other
Multiverse Theory is a witch with a capital B, but even it has its compassionate moments.
we need an animated series on the apocalypse of '09. we need to know what happened between the last episode of JLU "Destroyer" and Batman Beyond
In a sense, I actually think the JL: Doom movie could be a partial rendition of those offscreen events, just like its predecessor Crisis on Two Earths should fit as a JL and JLU interquel.
Wooo! Yeah Lobo!
Now "for modern audience", causes fans to avoid it like the plague
Abused, yes, but a good kind of character abuse in a storytelling sense. Think Max Payne from his first game all the way to the third game, set on a worldline after the bad ending of the second game.
3:47: A buncha cartoons back in the day sure didn't have proper introductions until later, or at least don't need to do that anymore. Respective examples are The Real Ghostbusters (introductions come later in the last eps of Season 1 with "Citizen Ghost") and Spider-Man: The Animated Series (no need to show off the hero's origin story; besides, we're more likely to have seen the definitive Sam Raimi take nowadays so to familiarize us with Spidey)
Guess Shifty depended way too much on Metropolis' boy scout being almost always around to save the day.
4:57: Bet the "Two of a Kind" comic made him snap.
5:19: At least we got to see DCAU Tim's ascended fanboy side here. That element felt underused in the cartoon canon.
5:48: Yes! Even The Lost Years suggested that!
6:38: He's also the perfect audience surrogate for anyone who hadn't read The Batman Adventures Annual 2 - "Demons" before watching this ep, "The Demon Within".
6:50: As long as it's not another Willow Rosenberg x Tara Maclay. *(shudders)*
7:08: The perks of being unshackled from Fox Kids. Sorry, Spider-Man: The Animated Series.
8:14: Suspected to be the aftermath of "The Lost Episode" cutscenes of the Sega CD version of The Adventures of Batman & Robin video game, NOT B: TAS S1E52 - "Mudslide".
Surprised you didn't show off his last appearance in Static Shock S4E1 "Future Shock". He's noticeably older and starting to be rebelliously disillusioned to Batman, not unlike Dick Grayson before him...
If there are two good notes I can say for Batman: The Adventures Continue Elseworlds-ish comics, it's that they brought back "Annie" in a testy manner against Tim, and the implication that the tragic events of Batman Beyond will never even ever happen.
Wish the showrunners were more foresightful with their timelines. The Return of the Joker flashbacks (possibly set in 2007) just feel inappropriate with Static Shock's older Tim Drake in mind (possibly 2000-2002, which is also the Justice League pre-Unlimited timeline).
Say what anyone will of the Batman Beyond 2.0 comics, at least they nailed the fact that Barbara Gordon almost immediately retired from the Batgirl persona after the RotJ flashback incident.
I wonder if Batman's involvement with the JLU slowly but surely decreased after 2007. Would explain why he seems like a lone wolf in "Rebirth: Parts 1 and 2". (Even more so in case the offscreen Near-Apocalypse of '09 had a partial rendition of the contingency events from the JL: Doom movie... perhaps he finally retired if not kicked from the League and replaced by his older, more capable semi-apprentice Static?)
12:23: And his wife being implied to be the DCAU's Stephanie Brown. One must wonder if she too is an ex-vigilante, considering her being Spoiler in other universes.
12:49: Batsy should have double checked. Oh, the wonders of Project CADMUS' gloried technology and science.
12:59-13:27: Interconnected storylines like X-Men '97 better take notes. It should later explain the jarring absence of the Avengers and Defenders, how Captain America was rescued from the interdimensional void in Spider-Man: TAS, how the Summers family was completely separated, and more.
Oh, and same goes for theoretical stuff like a Gravity Falls/Amphibia/The Owl House sequel saga. Who knows if the Los Angeles Frog-Vasion in Amphibia would lead to their take of Project Achilles/CADMUS and use it to confront Gravity Falls, the Boiling Isles, and so on.
(What, I'm a continuity nod+cavalcade nut, with a penchant for wanting consistently gripping shared universes. Don't judge. People like Dwayne McDuffie did the same, and I'm honored to be akin to him.)
Really hope to also see Lobo's appearances in the tie-in comics and even the apocryphal webseries.
Ho yeah if you want a more comic arcuate tim drake watch young justice season 2
Lore of Robin Was Abused | The New Batman Adventures momentum 100
Duh he's literally a child soldier.
And quite a good one at that. Pity about his end, but oh well, beats the Animorphs and the Puella Magi.
Tim drake needs to go to that therapy group Rusty Venture went to
Eventually these videos will just be references to all his other videos
🍻🎉🥳ANNIE MENTION WOOO
Buuut yes, DCAU Tim Drake, basically his own entity. Like you said, Tim basically turns into the abuser that abused him. For systems like myself, this would be known as an "introject", or factive. An alter formed after one's abuser that continues the abuser's work. Obv that's usually directed inward towards the system again, and not usually outward in Tim's case, but it is interesting the real world parallels.
Sometimes we've wondered if Annie were to ever manage to regain consciousness again, would it be after Tim's already gotten that happen to him? They're both trapped in bodies with an abuser/villain that hurts others as a result.
As always
Nobody liked the Jason Todd Robin because he was a prick. Today Jason Todd Red Hood is very popular because he is a prick. I guess times change.
Common misconception: The phone calls that killed Jason weren’t from the fans. Turns out, someone set up a robo-call on the Let Him Die number.
Meaning that the actual Batman fans wanted Jason to live.
(Edit: Nevermind, turns out it was just a rumor.)
Interesting, didn't know that. Do you have any source?
@@pablocardoso7830 Turns out it’s just a rumor.