@@alconaft4343 Please listen carefully to what he said about the level of monitoring being reduced over time, and also his previous video, where it is explained that monitoring will be eliminated completely when the level 3 legislation is written next year. Initially they were planning to do both level 2 and level 3 legislation together but have separated it out to get level 2 (assisted) happening ASAP. The good news is that there is indeed a clear legislative roadmap to full self driving (level 3) being enabled within the next 2 years
@@alconaft4343 EU did not promis you anything (and they are currently ones stopping us from having system that is really useful but still not completely autonomous). They will force not only Tesla, but everyone else, to keep it driver engaged system until they make bold step into lvl3.
Well Steven, thank you very much for the great news. It is most certainly a step in the right direction. I think it’s fair to say we here in Europe would be permanently in the dark, but for your TH-cam videos. So looking forward to your next video and I hope that is sooner rather than later. Regards from ;Dublin Ireland, Séamus.
Many thanks for the detailed update! I’m surprised that they will require to approve every single manoeuvre 😮 that will limit the ability of the car to drive fluidly, as in driving you often need quick reactions. I hope that there are exceptions for safety scenarios? It can’t prevent an accident by swerving if it needs to wait for a driver to approve first.
4:53 I have been reading the document 2024-01/GRVA-18-07r2e.pdf and I disagree with the statement that every manoeuvre has to be driver confirmed. That is nowhere in that document. It is even in your slide right on the screen with the (c) option. Instead different implementations can have different capabilities and one of those capability is the option to have system initiated manoeuvres. Yes including taking turns without confirmation. They do however have the section describing the requirements for this empty (section 5.3.7.2.4 "General requirements for system-initiated manoeuvres"). I interpret this as that they are not yet done specifying the requirements and that you may be right in that such a system could not yet gain approval. But it will come. It is also a bit open ended what a manoeuvre is. I would interpret it as taking actions other than following the straight route. It will still stop at red lights, following the road curves, avoid parked cars and pedestrians and so on. It just wont follow the navigation route or leave the lane to go around an obstruktion. While not following the navigation route seems silly, I am actually ok with getting confirmation before going into the oncoming lane to go around obstructions. The USA version of FSD can sometimes do some crazy things.
There is a clear definition of manoeuvre in the document. And the driver confirmation is mandatory for the current version if DCAS, which is exactly what I’m reporting on. And thecreadon why Tesla won’t bring FSD beta to Europe after all.
@@StevenPeeters There is _no_ mandatory text for confirmation in the text. Give me the section if you believe there is. On the contrary there is text for system initiated manoeuvres and you even put it in the video. "A manoeuvre shall only be initiated if the driver is not detected to be disengaged, and (a) or (b) or (c) is given sufficient notice to react for a system-initiated manoeuvre" This text clearly says that the car can do a system initiated manoeuvre provided it tells the chauffeur about it in advance. Notice there are _zero_ manoeuvres described as requiring driver confirmation or driver initiation. This means they can _all_ be system initiated. We even have text describing the requirements for system initiated manoeuvres, although there appears to be none currently specified: "5.3.7.2.4. General requirements for system-initiated manoeuvres The requirements of this paragraph and its subparagraphs apply to the system capable of performing a system-initiated manoeuvres. 5.3.7.2.4.1. (Reserved)" The definition of manoeuvre in the text is the following: "“Manoeuvre” means a change in the vehicle’s trajectory that leads the vehicle to at least partially leave its original lane or direction of travel whereby possibly leading to interaction with other road users" Which is just what I said.
Eyes on system would be great. I have noticed recently that my car says “keep your eyes on the road” in addition to the “touch your steering wheel slightly” since a recent update. This could be tre start of this transition. The interior cam is obviously used for driver attentiveness now, which was also reported by not a Tesla app
As the car needs to visually attentiveness and older S And X have no interior camera, does this mean they will never get FSD? In which case I think Tesla should refund all owners who have paid for a system they cannot ever deliver
@@Jonathantuba While I agree on the one hand, on the other hand Tesla has always communicated that "any feature availability will depend on further software development and regulatory approval" on the order page where you checked the box for FSD. So they are covered there.
@@StevenPeeters when I got FSD for my m3 back in 2019 they promised self driving on city streets before end of year. I am not an idiot, so I knew it was a lie. It was still misleading advertising and no wording in small prints can fix that.
Hi Steven, thank you for the update. Unfortunately I feel not that positive for the introduction with FSD 12 because v12 is all about AI. So there was this thing with having to reduce the speed at stop signs to actually zero that was not easy to get the AI to learn. The actually had to present fake examples to the learning AI for it get this rule (which there is no normal driver sticking to that rule in the USA). With the multiple rules and timing limits I get the impression that it could have been easier with FSD 11 than with 12. The Rettungsgasse should be no problem, though. This could also boost the currently not usable 5 year old software stack we use in our cars. The biggest thing is the UNECE is finally speeding up a lot. So a not so goold ruleset not being applicable to FSD 12 is nethertheless better than no ruleset at all. I'm betting for 2025 to finally get some usage if my FSD after 6 years of waiting 😀
Agreed. Tesla haven't been able to build a rules based system (not saying anyone else has either). All the rules and nags will probably make the system a waste of time for public users. Testers and extreme Tesla fans might persevere with it but general users won't. I barely use autopilot because of the nags.
We hope for FSD here in Europe with the same potential it has in the US. But if this is not what is going to happen, i hope at least that we'll get an OTA update that allows our cars to steer more in tighter curves!
Steven , thank you for your diligence on WP29 and your regular updates - appreciated . I do fear that each Jurisdiction will want to Exercise their rights of interference which will cause silly delays. But still this IS progress I trust and believe that Tesla is and will be on the inside providing detailed driving experiences of v12 to the specific regulators . ? IF this IS the case it should be enlightening for them in their thinking which has evolved around their exposure Heuristic implementations ..
Hmm. FSD in Teslas have not always been driver initiated even in Europe. When on navigate on autopilot my car USED TO be able to activate indicators and turn off the freeway without driver initiation. That feature was later removed. I’m sure this was the case in the rest of the EU too.
Great job Steven thank you. It may sound over-cautious to some, but we should bear in mind that this is a first and important inflection point. A historic change. And that it's still early days, there will be continuous improvement. I don't want to imagine how it would feel if I killed a cyclist because my attention had wandered while on self driving. I would assume that training to form a Virtual Rescue Lane in those countries shouldn't be too difficult, lots of real world training opportunities - and it's not that different from training to recognise and make room for emergency vehicles in congested city driving anyway.
People assume L2 is simply lane centering and adaptive cruise control. None of FSDb features are associated with L3-L5. L2 is simply lateral and longitudinal control over the vehicle. This may be limited to the freeway but it does not have to be. FSDb can pass vehicles (lateral steering inputs and accelerator/brake outputs) as can many other L2 systems such as XPeng's XNGP or Huawei's DCAS. L3 features would be release of liability during engagement.
Exactly. But people still seem to think that they don’t need to pay attention at all and that it is a self driving car. The SAE levels talk about liability and responsibility, not about which features are being performed. Seems hard to grasp for many people
So for older cars with FSD - this won't be possible since we don't have internal cameras. That means maybe we get our money back or we can transfer FSD to new cars?
I don’t know if I am happy or not. I have been a beta tester for a year in the US and all those restrictions risk to have a system completely different… I really hope for the better, at least it’s the first step
Will this new regulation apply to new cars only or also require existing systems to be updated? And not only FSD but normal AP will also be affected by the 5 second nag, which will make driving more unsafe imo, as you might have to disable AP when looking for music etc. on the screen. Still very positive that things are finally moving for Europe.
If the car doesn’t perform DVAS functions, the DVAS tegulations don’t apply. It will still be r79 that applies. However, I do expect that automakers will use one system for all
Where are you getting that all system-initiated manoeuvres need to be driver-confirmed? I can't see that in the document. It talks separately about driver-confirmed or system-initiated manoeuvres, and I see that specific requirements for system-initiated manoeuvres are 'reserved' but nowhere says system-initiated manoeuvres will have to be confirmed.
Thanks for the great summary, @Steven Peeters! I also see pros and cons, in general, I appreciate that there is some level stanardization across different systems, however in some parts I have a feeling that they went a bit too far. Two question as I'm not sure if I got that correctly: (1) You're suggesting that the vehicle-initiated auto-lane changes would actually allow the car to make a turn at a crossing? However, does the 7s rule also apply there then or not? I could imagine that this wouldn't work at all if the car would need to wait for pedestrians or cyclists crossing the street - or do you think this would not fall under the 7s rule? (2) Is the increased level of attentiveness (i.e. 5s wheel nag) only required within the city or does the regulation also mandate this on highways?
The 7s rule is for general lane changes, not intersections. As for the nag, it depends on what function is being executed. A car is not just DCAS or ADAS. It is both in different circumstances. Remember when FSD in the US was city streets, but on highways it was the same NoA as what everyone else had? Same thing here. However, Tesla may choose to implement one single sort of interaction for everything. They can do that to simplify the system, since now FSD is single stack for city and highway. These regulation tell the WHAT, not the HOW. And we will have to see HOW Tesla will implement everything here. Nobody knows at this moment
@@StevenPeeters Oh interesting, I wasn’t aware that the system could still adhere to both rules. So - as an example - Tesla could say that in the city it’s DCAS meaning 5s nag, then after you merged in the highway and are basically just going straight it could switch to ADAS mode with 15s nag, but when it detects a construction, jam or need to leave highway it could switch back to DCAS again? Probably with appropriate alerts given to the driver that it switched mode of operation.
Thank you very much for the excellent analysis. As I understand that with this new regulations, FSD might not be allowed if there is no cabin camera, right?
@@BaldurNorddahl I think that is a very tiny chance as it requires a different wiring harness too. This is not a small change such as exchanging the computer.
Those regulations don't really mean that Tesla will enable beta in Europe. They are still training V12 for sunny areas of the US only, tests with heavy rain had still pretty bad results. And Europe is pretty rainy and snowy at times. I honestly believe Tesla will just focus on actually finishing FSD in US and then start with the Europe and China next when they learn how to make it drive perfectly.
Thanks Steven. Does seem regulations may hinder the end product somewhat, especially the 3 second interval, driver confirmations and prohibited lane changes into oncoming traffic. IIRC further UNECE rules for level 4 and over are also in the works (was intended for a year or so after these rules?). Would be great to have an update on these also!
Actually, it is very likely that the GRVA proposal is fast-tracked to the WP.29 session of March for voting and adoption, since it is already referenced in the meeting agenda. Add 6 months for the standard scrutiny period and you could be looking at the DCAS Regulation going live around September.
"provisional agenda" ;-) Of course they will try to get it on the agenda. Doesn't mean it will be discussed. We can always be pleasantly surprised. But all my sources keep saying "don't count on it". If it happens, I'll report on it again, of course, with a timeline for expected possible date. But even then, Tesla still has to certify for all the aspects
It doesn't seem that way. Here is the list of countries in the WP29 agreement: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_Forum_for_Harmonization_of_Vehicle_Regulations
Thank you for your detailed description. If all that regulation comes into play I don’t see coming Teslas FSD to reach Europe at all. Tesla will be able to do a lot and behave almost human like. But Teslas FSD 12 won‘t be able to function within those restrictions. Those regulations created by bureaucrats are a disgusting, unpractical, ridiculous nonsense. You get the impression those regulators try do do EVERYTHING STRICTLY RIGHT. But because the world is a complex and chaotic place this regulation attempt MUST fail - and so it does. Sometimes when I drive I AM GUILTY. I sometimes use my FSD when I am distracted or tired. FSD right now has saved me and my car a couple of times and I am very thankful having this option right now. If the nagging time gets reduced to 5 seconds AND I am forced to be fully eyes on attending I could drive myself. There is NO POINT IN EVEN USING IT. So most likely I won’t use FSD any more if it gets THAT restrictive. This will lead to more unsafe and more dangerous drives, using my knees to steer and those bad behavior I didn’t use for 4 years now. What a shame. I am very, very disappointed. And I lost hope for FSDs future in Europe.
Virtual rescue lane... Why should Tesla have to implement it (like you said in the end)? Your text said: "If the system is capable of forming an access corridor" it has to do some things... So if the system is not capable it is still allowed.
Because it is a legal requirement to do do in the countries that have these laws. If it doesn't do that, then we're back to the same useless AP system we have now.
In that case the driver would be required to disengage the system and drive manually until traffic clears and the virtual rescue corridor is no longer needed. That is not what we want.
Did you mention round abouts? I didn't see anything. I live in Nantes, the city with the second most round abouts in the world. Thanks for the great work.
Really nice and detailed summary i hope we can get this through quickly and i am completely on your side with the cautious rollout to prevent misleading headlines as self driving car killed children there should be a clear direction given to the media what this will cause and it would set everybody back 5-10 years like with electric cars and their campaigns against them
Thank you for the videos i hope it will be enough to pay attention and apply force to the wheel for the car to confirm lane changes and exot roundabouts. When you need to confirm with the turn signal or buttos press it will be completely useless in my opinion
@@StevenPeeters yes but there is room for interpretation for example BMW got approval in Germany for confirmation for lange changes on the highway by only looking in the mirror
@@StevenPeeters Yes, that is what I hope that it can be interpreted in such a way that confirming with a look in the direction you are driving is sufficient as confirmation
@@SailingFloh you will still need to have your hands on the steering wheel though. So the difference with just a nudge, as we have to do now, would be negligible
Hi Steven, from what I’ve read on the working document of the GRVA, all the system initiated part of the regulation were left « reserved ». Therefore are you sure about the system initiated maneuvers being part of what’s coming ? Also if by any chance it gets on the march WP29 agenda’s, will it then become available in June ? I don’t know if for exemple the chamber in Belgium need to adopt it and then it could delay things even if in place on unece level ? Thank you a lot for the update, was waiting for it all week !
If March succeeds then maybe this summer could work. But even if that does work, Tesla has a lot of improvements to get through before they comply with these regulations. Maybe thst is hapoening in the background, but I’m more confident in the fact that they are now only waking up in Europe. As for the system maneouvres, the text clearly says “driver-confirmed for system-initiated events”. The reserved parts are for the next iteration where we would get “system events without driver confirmation”
Do you have any info on what level of FSD will become available for cars that do not (yet) have the interior camera installed? Or if Tesla could provide a hardware update for the interior camera?
@@dezent Most likely neither. When you bought FSD there was a big disclaimer that all future features would depend on software validation and regulatory approval. They covered their asses that way
What potential impact will this have on Autopilot? You've mentioned that EU autopilot is running a 4 year old stack, so based on what you've read would this legislation allow EU markets to get to the same place as their north American counterparts?
EU driver here. I've noticed lately that my Tesla is giving me heads up notifications when looking at screen like 2-3sec when its wanting my attention. Lets say it blinks blue to give some nudge to steering wheel, it already starts to whine about "Pay attention to driving" or something like that. xD
@@StevenPeetersYea but its is somewhat stupid when testa wants your attention and blinks something in the screen, you look at the screen and it starts crying "WATCH THE ROAD!" :D
Thank you for the great clarification video! I have one thing that is not clear to me... older cars have FSD, but don't have internal camera... any idea how can Tesla handle this? I'm thinking those cars will be out of this feature...
At this point, nobody knows. Probably they won't be able to get the functionality for DCAS. And before you ask, most likely Tesla will not do retrofits or paybacks, since there have always been fine print that said everything depends on software validation and regulatory approval
If I look too long at the road ahead, the car wil complain. If I look more at things next to the road, not related to driving at all, the car is happy. Turning my head more when looking in the mirrors seem to help too. Recently I noticed that if I always make the wheel pull in the same direction, it will eventually stop working, I need to alternate the pull direction a bit. In the Netherlands it will only activate on main roads, rarely on roads with no line markings. We have a lot of roads where the center has not been marked on purpose, and on those roads Tesla will always drive in the middel of the wide road with v11. I hope we get v12 soon.
Thanks for the video! Do you reckon that once it comes into effect in January 2025 manufacturers can already type-approve the system, or does it have to be transposed into EU law (2018/858 + 2019/2144) before type-approval can be done?
I don’t see the need for specific laws, like there is for L3. This is still a L2 system. I’m fairly confident that WP29 is the only remaining hurdle. Will check withy sources
Sounds like nothing for older cars (no driver watching camera). But we are basically not getting even "normal" software updates anyway (still on 2023.26, while the replacement TM3 was on 2023.44)...
What is funny is that AP1 was capable of a rescuelane . Regarding auto lane change off highways. So we are getting back lane change assist after 4 years since it was removed 😂. For the rest my fear is indeed they require visual driver monitoring.. meaning any older Tesla with FSD HW3 will never get FSD in Europa
Wrong news from Ron Patel, Senior Global Director, Public Policy and Business Development at Tesla : « We could make some small improvements to the older versions of FSD, based on the updated DCAS regulations at the end of the year. But unless there is an updated allowance for “system initiated” maneuvers, the full benefits of systems such as Supervised FSD are not type approvable. The way the updated regulation works is that the driver would need to approve of almost every significant maneuver or set of maneuvers. Practically I’m not even sure how that might work or be designed, but it sounds like a massive pain/distraction for a driver - the opposite of the point of both the driver assistance and driver monitoring benefits of Supervised FSD »
@@StevenPeeters Every country, region, city, state, province, town, village has their own collection of unique scenario's. Everyone thinks they are the unicorn. That's the beauty of training data. Feed it enough examples from the region it will drive in and it will learn to generalize for that region.
@@StevenPeetersIt might take a couple of years of collecting real-world local data combined with simulated data to achieve high levels of autonomy in Belgium. It won't take as long as it has in the US. It's similar to how ChatGPT4's model is being leveraged to train other neural nets in a fraction of the time with a fraction of the data. The base foundational model takes the longest. Subsequent derivations leverage the foundation and a flywheel results. Also, much of the time in the US has been spent finding the right Neural Net architecture. The latest end to end approach of v12 has a high chance of being the correct one. In addition, Tesla is adding significant compute clusters. Only time will tell.
Heel goede video. Ik ben van plan om tesla model Y te kopen (2022 of 2023 model). Ik weet niet of ik enhance pilot zou moeten bijnemen of niet. Kan ik deze achteraf nemen aan zelfde prijs, ik lees ook dat er maandabbonementen zouden zijn klopt dat?
Ja, kan achteraf aan zelfde prijs… tot Tesla besluit de prijs te verhogen ongetwijfeld wanneer fsd mag. Subscriptions zijn enkel voor Noord-Amerila voorlopig
Hey Steven, great video. Still frustrated about our 2019 investment in FSD… You might want to check the spelling of the word manoeuvres on your slides. You use two spellings 😏
It's not illegal to cross a white line. A white line only indicates that it's forbidden to take over other two-track vehicle vehicles driving in the same direction. Stationary vehicles can legally be passed, as like any other obstruction. It's also legal to take over motorcycles and bicycles by crossing the line.
That might be the case in your country. But in Belgium, for example, you can only pass a cyclist as long as you don't cross the solid white line. Going over it is not allowed in any case. When there is a vehicle in the road that isn't moving, I'm sure the police will just ignore that. But you don't want to have this situation on your driver's test for sure.
@@StevenPeeters interesting. In some countries like spain, the law says that for passing a cyclist you _have to_ go into the left lane (even if it’s a solid white line separating directions). I am pessimistic about Tesla being able to release a trained NN that works for all cases, since that requires going over each country’s special case, recording enough training sets, etc. I think they won’t have a working version until at least 2026, given their work pace and US centric approach
@@pablollopis908 in Germany you need to keep 1.5 m distance to a cyclist or 2 m if you're out of town or the cyclist is carrying a child on the child seat. But this normally is the same as changing one lane over - so this part shouldn't be difficult to implement.
@@StevenPeetershere in Denmark we have double lines to signal that the line can not be crossed. Even in that case, we will still do it if the road is otherwise blocked.
Always has been this way. It is just being enforced now. These strict regulations are created because people can’t be trusted to use the system as intended. It’s because they misuse it, that we are being punished
When I had my Passat, I used to record videos, and I used to call them "Fully driving by myself" videos, maybe that's a thought for a new Tesla name. I do hope the UK doesn't follow the EU regulations to the letter though, that would be horrific
What a great news today ... I'm waiting for that because of my TH-cam channel topic. And FSD will give a great enhancement for disabled people. Is there a chance that you allow me to do a video based on yours ? Thanks for this great summary and for all your comments about regulatories.
Absolutely bonkers. And since public traffic is a safety concern, I'd argue that the people who make this nonsense up, are a safety issue for public traffic.
Thanks for the video. Very informative. Having read this regulation now. I can't see how manufacturers will either be able to design the product specified, or, how the product specified would be useable on european streets. With the minimum indicator times, and minimum gaps required and specified turning speeds - the car will spend more time sitting and blocking traffic than working. On the driver side. What happens if you haven't confirmed the manoeuvre in time ? Does the car grind to a stop ? Does it pull over ? Doesn't sound like a workable solution to me... Need to stop regulating by committee and stop going for least workable product
TBH I cannot find a sentence in the document that says "all manoeuvres have to be confirmed by the driver", so maybe thats not the case. Also this version of the doc is certainly not the last one, since there are still some sections to complete. So things may still change in the future ....
Agreed it's not the last version. However, each iterative change takes 6-12 months to take affect. So how long before the regulations are useable, manufacturers can prove they work to the legislations and gets into the public hands ?
@@StevenPeeters the current Tesla implementation doesn’t even work on France highway without autobahn craziness . Lane changes need to happen in sub seconds on busy highways. From init of the maneuver to finish
@@StevenPeeters The question is... can the system just turn on the blinkers for 7 seconds... wait if there is an opening... and if not turn them off. And right after that turn them on again and wait again. At least in your video there is no information that would indicate otherwise... Of course that would be something that the regulation wanted to avoid. But in my opinion that would be a loophole?
@@StevenPeeters But if it is a lange change because you have to get into the turning lane... does it still have to wait for a gap? How do you do it if there are two turning lanes and the car is driving in the right one? Is it allowed to put on the blinker without there being a gap? There are so many situations where that can be problematic.
Interesting to see what will happen to those who drive a Tesla without inside cameras. Second: If all self human drivers would fulfill what those crazy regulations demand for FSD and AP there would be no accidents anymore. Geez! Totally ridiculous.
Oh yes, that’s absolutely true. I hope at some point in the very near future it will be the other way round: it will make the headlines if a human causes an accident because of manual driving. That would be awesome 😅👍🏼
Haha i love the us paradigm being at odds with not-us Paradigm. Safety is more important here. Furthermore the us is coloring outside the lines as it were. Its lvl 2.. But in the us you are allowed to pretend its more than that.. If the technology is so advanced it should he lvl 3 or more and be able to certify it as such.. beta or no. Driving is still driving Im not in agreement with all these points of course.. but the spirit of it all makes total sense to me.
It is not changing quickly at all, so that is no problem. Tesla and other brands are involved in the discussions too, so they knowcexactly what will be coming and are helping shape that regulation
Well. Sorry. 13 seconds and constant beeping for hands and ayes? This is supposed to relax the task of driving. Not increase the workload navigating constant barrage of warnings! This is not going to be useful at all. Better just to drive by myself instead. Much less stressful
It is actually more stressful because you have to oversee the machine. As I said many times: this is NOT self driving. Seems to be a very hard concept to grasp for many people
@@StevenPeeters Well i know what it is. It has never up to this point been a self driving system. But this is moving the task of driving to monitoring something unknown for most people. It’s NOT ASSISTING the driver, it’s adding a completely new workload onto the driver for which no real training is provided. Yeah yeah, some video training. Far cry from real training. The EU has once again taken a reasonably simple task and made it into madness. Let the system do exactly what it can do in America. It’s NOT self driving there either. And as long as the system is a level 2 system it’s still the driver that is responsible. They have taken everything else away, even speeding from the equation and the whole idea of driver assist systems in any form is to offload the driver, not add new stuff to take in and then act upon. EU is so backwards when it comes to technology that it questionable that they even should have a say in it. Just look at side loading iOS apps, forcing RCS on iPhones, mandatory spying capabilities and the whole Cookie debacle with constant popups that sometimes requires a degree to understand just to do anything online and every single time you visit a page you have already visited. This is not something the EU should be engaged in. It always complicates things beyond comprehension
@@driver288 I understand the frustration. But NHTSA is also coming down hard on Tesla because the driver is not paying attention. Here, they are making sure that you will be paying attention. I don't like it either, but if you use the system as intended, then it should be no problem. We will see once it rolls out and I get the chance to test it. That is the real stock of truth. Right now it is just a text that nobody complies with.
Trust me, it's better than not having FSD at all. You will adapt. It won't be as stressful as you think. I speak from personal real world experience driving with FSD beta on the local streets here in NYC.
@@RobertLoPinto Hi! You don’t on the other hand have all these nagging proposed by the EU. That’s the whole difference!. Do you have to touch the steering wheel every 15 seconds with FSD Beta in the US? Your car can do autonomous lane changes right? And the empty space in the lane you’re merging into has to be 6m as opposed to 36m here. Your FSD beta car can indicate and turn off at off ramps, right? Well depending on what driver confirmed means it could be a lot worse than it used to be. Now lane changes in the EU has to be confirmed with the indicator being manually turned on by the driver to start the lane change. If i have to confirm every movement the car wants to do then what’s the point?!? I bought my model 3 with FSD and what have I gotten out of it? Auto parking that now for some reason requires perfect internet connection to even show the interface in the display, wasn’t the case before. Now I can’t use it in the multi car garage i park in because of spotty connection. For me FSD has only gotten worse by the year since i got the car. I’m not sure my next car, if it’s a Tesla is getting FSD since it’s so crippled here. I’d rather just pay for what i can use, upgraded AP which basically is what we have here now. And if we are looking at Jan 25 for FSD beta a la the US, it’s time to replace this one anyway
Except that you still need to confirm every lane change. So basically these rules define what NOA currently does.... So nothing is going to change. Regarding the speed limits. It is already implemented like that. Further more the even more insane stricter driver monitoring makes it all more ridiculous. Forget ANY FSD as Tesla currently does not work like that in the US so they will not going to work like that. Regarding hands on.. man... Because of the crappy torque based implementation this is going to be completely useless. Especially as currently the car already can disable autopilot for a week !!!! This is going to make that even worse if Tesla is going to comply to this.. So... Nope, nog getting FSD at all... Just a more crappy NOA experience
@@StevenPeeters second, confirming *every* lane change, speed bump brake, crosswalk brake/pass, corner, merge which all could happen in 100 meters... The people that write all that down should give me some of the pills they are taking because that must give some epic hallucinating trips
do "BlueCruise" making it blue outside? or "Super Cruise" make it super? No? So why you trying make one name be important, and other not? Because you don't read instructions and own preconception taking as something reality? BTW where is not FSD, there is only FSD Beta... yeah you don't even remember name correct, because you want to be right, so do anything to be... 2:00 so that people don't reading instruction is Tesla fault? As you put cat in microwave is producer fault because you didn't read instruction? What a world, double standard. 2:15 as every car have same way to activate automatic transmission... no? Oh why? Because there is not reason to make all system works same, this is not safety element, is user responsibility. Even breaks can works different. For real, what a world, make everything same, one government system prefer it, and wasn't it good system, difference is good, because with time better solutions will be selected, when you force everybody to do same, you will never have evolution. Even CSS vs NACS, 2nd is better, but EU force first, because auto makers didn't want add switch in car so users now must use problematic standard, as it would be if cellphone charging standard would be select in 90's, with time better where created, and not much left to do with USB-C so it could become standard, because at most all producers use it, but before it, it would be stupid to select any.
NACS cannot handle 3-phase AC power. That is already a reason why it's not a good choice. And I did say that it is the driver's responsibility to be informed, but that the manufacturer needs to provide the information/training material. The regulations say WHAT needs to happen, not HOW.
@@StevenPeeters NACS can handle 350kW charging and 800V (today, it couldn't in past), how many phase there is not important, because car in CSS get low AC or DC and DC do not have phases. So... what are you talking about? "but that the manufacturer needs to" they need to provide instruction, but it have to be in any form, what form, why government deciding it? And instructions are always added, so why you mention, if it is not about format? And everybody agree there should be instruction, funny, but I would more attack instruction for smartphones or that they don't have.
@@m_sedziwoj I’m not talking about DC but AC, which is what 80% of your charging is. CCS2 can also handle 350kW and even 500kW. It’s a standard and not something everyone needs an adapter for. That is one thing the the UNECE does do right
@@StevenPeeters AC you use mostly at home, so... to fast charge you use always DC, because resistance. So I don't get where you get this AC info, because is max at 43 kW, and DC is up to 350kW. I found what 3-phase is up to 166kW, but it was only on wiki, so... how common it is, and DC is still better because less losses and faster, so for public/onroad chargers is better, and AC (cheap for home, where converter is in car) is better for home, where you don't need fast charging. So from user perspective NACS is still better. And looking what most car makers in USA is moving to this standard, mean something, they agree that is at last as good, because they have to invest a lot of money to change they production and contracts. And don't reminds you old phone connectors and USB-C, where was many pins in old, and all was "needed". Physics is unchanged whatever you preference are, and fast charging should be done by DC, but converters are not cheap, so for home better use in car converter, which is smaller, because it is needed for converting from batteries (DC) to motors (AC). So AC is good because is cheap, not because is better.
@@m_sedziwoj I don’t care about your NACS crush. It is not better than CCS2 in compatibility. It is only nowxstarting to become a US standard and has a very long way to go to replace all public charging stations. AC charging is what you do the most, be it at home or public charging. The speed doesn’t matter. The fact that you can charge on any charger hassle free, that is what matters. DC charging is for long distance driving. And for DC, the Tesla charger is good. Not for AC compatibility
The level of detailed regulation is killing it entirely. Ridiculous.
I did not get what is the point of FSD if I have to drive that shitty car by myself. It not what was promised.
@@alconaft4343 Please listen carefully to what he said about the level of monitoring being reduced over time, and also his previous video, where it is explained that monitoring will be eliminated completely when the level 3 legislation is written next year.
Initially they were planning to do both level 2 and level 3 legislation together but have separated it out to get level 2 (assisted) happening ASAP.
The good news is that there is indeed a clear legislative roadmap to full self driving (level 3) being enabled within the next 2 years
@@alconaft4343 EU did not promis you anything (and they are currently ones stopping us from having system that is really useful but still not completely autonomous). They will force not only Tesla, but everyone else, to keep it driver engaged system until they make bold step into lvl3.
Great info again Steven. Thanks for your valuable time and sharing this update. I’ll look forward to the next update around March or June.
I totally agree!
Thank you for following up these regulations! Exiting news!
You've got my vote for being the first European beta tester, for sure! Thanks for keeping us informed!
Well Steven, thank you very much for the great news. It is most certainly a step in the right direction. I think it’s fair to say we here in Europe would be permanently in the dark, but for your TH-cam videos. So looking forward to your next video and I hope that is sooner rather than later. Regards from ;Dublin Ireland, Séamus.
Thanks, for your really helpful explanation, thanks for observing how regulation are changing. Information worth watching. 😊
Thank you so much for your support 😍
Many thanks for the detailed update! I’m surprised that they will require to approve every single manoeuvre 😮 that will limit the ability of the car to drive fluidly, as in driving you often need quick reactions. I hope that there are exceptions for safety scenarios? It can’t prevent an accident by swerving if it needs to wait for a driver to approve first.
4:53 I have been reading the document 2024-01/GRVA-18-07r2e.pdf and I disagree with the statement that every manoeuvre has to be driver confirmed. That is nowhere in that document. It is even in your slide right on the screen with the (c) option. Instead different implementations can have different capabilities and one of those capability is the option to have system initiated manoeuvres. Yes including taking turns without confirmation. They do however have the section describing the requirements for this empty (section 5.3.7.2.4 "General requirements for system-initiated manoeuvres"). I interpret this as that they are not yet done specifying the requirements and that you may be right in that such a system could not yet gain approval. But it will come.
It is also a bit open ended what a manoeuvre is. I would interpret it as taking actions other than following the straight route. It will still stop at red lights, following the road curves, avoid parked cars and pedestrians and so on. It just wont follow the navigation route or leave the lane to go around an obstruktion.
While not following the navigation route seems silly, I am actually ok with getting confirmation before going into the oncoming lane to go around obstructions. The USA version of FSD can sometimes do some crazy things.
There is a clear definition of manoeuvre in the document. And the driver confirmation is mandatory for the current version if DCAS, which is exactly what I’m reporting on. And thecreadon why Tesla won’t bring FSD beta to Europe after all.
@@StevenPeeters There is _no_ mandatory text for confirmation in the text. Give me the section if you believe there is. On the contrary there is text for system initiated manoeuvres and you even put it in the video.
"A manoeuvre shall only be initiated if the driver is not detected to be
disengaged, and (a) or (b) or (c) is given sufficient notice to react for a system-initiated manoeuvre"
This text clearly says that the car can do a system initiated manoeuvre provided it tells the chauffeur about it in advance.
Notice there are _zero_ manoeuvres described as requiring driver confirmation or driver initiation. This means they can _all_ be system initiated.
We even have text describing the requirements for system initiated manoeuvres, although there appears to be none currently specified:
"5.3.7.2.4. General requirements for system-initiated manoeuvres
The requirements of this paragraph and its subparagraphs apply to the system
capable of performing a system-initiated manoeuvres.
5.3.7.2.4.1. (Reserved)"
The definition of manoeuvre in the text is the following:
"“Manoeuvre” means a change in the vehicle’s trajectory that leads the vehicle
to at least partially leave its original lane or direction of travel whereby
possibly leading to interaction with other road users"
Which is just what I said.
Eyes on system would be great. I have noticed recently that my car says “keep your eyes on the road” in addition to the “touch your steering wheel slightly” since a recent update. This could be tre start of this transition. The interior cam is obviously used for driver attentiveness now, which was also reported by not a Tesla app
Yes, this is the part of the recall in the US that rolled out globally
As the car needs to visually attentiveness and older S And X have no interior camera, does this mean they will never get FSD? In which case I think Tesla should refund all owners who have paid for a system they cannot ever deliver
@@Jonathantuba While I agree on the one hand, on the other hand Tesla has always communicated that "any feature availability will depend on further software development and regulatory approval" on the order page where you checked the box for FSD. So they are covered there.
@@StevenPeeters when I got FSD for my m3 back in 2019 they promised self driving on city streets before end of year. I am not an idiot, so I knew it was a lie. It was still misleading advertising and no wording in small prints can fix that.
@@BaldurNorddahl Nobody "promised" anything to anyone.
Hi Steven, thank you for the update.
Unfortunately I feel not that positive for the introduction with FSD 12 because v12 is all about AI. So there was this thing with having to reduce the speed at stop signs to actually zero that was not easy to get the AI to learn. The actually had to present fake examples to the learning AI for it get this rule (which there is no normal driver sticking to that rule in the USA).
With the multiple rules and timing limits I get the impression that it could have been easier with FSD 11 than with 12.
The Rettungsgasse should be no problem, though. This could also boost the currently not usable 5 year old software stack we use in our cars.
The biggest thing is the UNECE is finally speeding up a lot. So a not so goold ruleset not being applicable to FSD 12 is nethertheless better than no ruleset at all. I'm betting for 2025 to finally get some usage if my FSD after 6 years of waiting 😀
Agreed. Tesla haven't been able to build a rules based system (not saying anyone else has either). All the rules and nags will probably make the system a waste of time for public users. Testers and extreme Tesla fans might persevere with it but general users won't. I barely use autopilot because of the nags.
we wont have any sort of FSD (by any brand, not just Tesla) in Europe until the d*mb regulations are removed and made to be realistic
We hope for FSD here in Europe with the same potential it has in the US. But if this is not what is going to happen, i hope at least that we'll get an OTA update that allows our cars to steer more in tighter curves!
Steven , thank you for your diligence on WP29 and your regular updates - appreciated . I do fear that each Jurisdiction will want to Exercise their rights of interference which will cause silly delays. But still this IS progress
I trust and believe that Tesla is and will be on the inside providing detailed driving experiences of v12 to the specific regulators . ? IF this IS the case it should be enlightening for them in their thinking which has evolved around their exposure Heuristic implementations ..
Hmm. FSD in Teslas have not always been driver initiated even in Europe. When on navigate on autopilot my car USED TO be able to activate indicators and turn off the freeway without driver initiation. That feature was later removed. I’m sure this was the case in the rest of the EU too.
That was Tesla exploiting a loophole in the regulations for lane changes. But they had to change that
My prediction is that we get the 5 second nag and nothing else
Great job Steven thank you.
It may sound over-cautious to some, but we should bear in mind that this is a first and important inflection point. A historic change. And that it's still early days, there will be continuous improvement.
I don't want to imagine how it would feel if I killed a cyclist because my attention had wandered while on self driving.
I would assume that training to form a Virtual Rescue Lane in those countries shouldn't be too difficult, lots of real world training opportunities - and it's not that different from training to recognise and make room for emergency vehicles in congested city driving anyway.
People assume L2 is simply lane centering and adaptive cruise control. None of FSDb features are associated with L3-L5. L2 is simply lateral and longitudinal control over the vehicle. This may be limited to the freeway but it does not have to be. FSDb can pass vehicles (lateral steering inputs and accelerator/brake outputs) as can many other L2 systems such as XPeng's XNGP or Huawei's DCAS. L3 features would be release of liability during engagement.
Exactly. But people still seem to think that they don’t need to pay attention at all and that it is a self driving car. The SAE levels talk about liability and responsibility, not about which features are being performed. Seems hard to grasp for many people
Rettungsgasse was started in Austria.
Very informative video!
So for older cars with FSD - this won't be possible since we don't have internal cameras. That means maybe we get our money back or we can transfer FSD to new cars?
Fine print when you buy FSD has always been there, taking regulatory dependencies into account
With the visual driver monitoring owners of legacy S and X without an interior cam need a retrofit or are once more left out... (to put it nicely)
This is also something I’m wondering..
Thanks Steven for the detailed video. I guess I am no longer expecting FSD to arrive in AU in 2024.
Would be nice to have a reference link for this information in your commentary section.
Good point. Added the link to the approved document. Happy reading 😆
I don’t know if I am happy or not. I have been a beta tester for a year in the US and all those restrictions risk to have a system completely different… I really hope for the better, at least it’s the first step
Great update, Thanks!
Will this new regulation apply to new cars only or also require existing systems to be updated?
And not only FSD but normal AP will also be affected by the 5 second nag, which will make driving more unsafe imo, as you might have to disable AP when looking for music etc. on the screen.
Still very positive that things are finally moving for Europe.
If the car doesn’t perform DVAS functions, the DVAS tegulations don’t apply. It will still be r79 that applies. However, I do expect that automakers will use one system for all
Where are you getting that all system-initiated manoeuvres need to be driver-confirmed? I can't see that in the document. It talks separately about driver-confirmed or system-initiated manoeuvres, and I see that specific requirements for system-initiated manoeuvres are 'reserved' but nowhere says system-initiated manoeuvres will have to be confirmed.
Thanks for the great summary, @Steven Peeters!
I also see pros and cons, in general, I appreciate that there is some level stanardization across different systems, however in some parts I have a feeling that they went a bit too far.
Two question as I'm not sure if I got that correctly:
(1) You're suggesting that the vehicle-initiated auto-lane changes would actually allow the car to make a turn at a crossing? However, does the 7s rule also apply there then or not? I could imagine that this wouldn't work at all if the car would need to wait for pedestrians or cyclists crossing the street - or do you think this would not fall under the 7s rule?
(2) Is the increased level of attentiveness (i.e. 5s wheel nag) only required within the city or does the regulation also mandate this on highways?
The 7s rule is for general lane changes, not intersections. As for the nag, it depends on what function is being executed. A car is not just DCAS or ADAS. It is both in different circumstances. Remember when FSD in the US was city streets, but on highways it was the same NoA as what everyone else had? Same thing here. However, Tesla may choose to implement one single sort of interaction for everything. They can do that to simplify the system, since now FSD is single stack for city and highway.
These regulation tell the WHAT, not the HOW. And we will have to see HOW Tesla will implement everything here. Nobody knows at this moment
@@StevenPeeters Oh interesting, I wasn’t aware that the system could still adhere to both rules. So - as an example - Tesla could say that in the city it’s DCAS meaning 5s nag, then after you merged in the highway and are basically just going straight it could switch to ADAS mode with 15s nag, but when it detects a construction, jam or need to leave highway it could switch back to DCAS again? Probably with appropriate alerts given to the driver that it switched mode of operation.
Thank you very much for the excellent analysis. As I understand that with this new regulations, FSD might not be allowed if there is no cabin camera, right?
Seems that way
@@StevenPeetersTesla might be able to come up with a retro fitted camera.
@@BaldurNorddahl I think that is a very tiny chance as it requires a different wiring harness too. This is not a small change such as exchanging the computer.
@@StevenPeetersthe camera does not need to be located there. It could also be a more convenient place for retrofit. Maybe in the display.
Not until it's developed to where it can truly drive itself, anyhow.
Those regulations don't really mean that Tesla will enable beta in Europe. They are still training V12 for sunny areas of the US only, tests with heavy rain had still pretty bad results. And Europe is pretty rainy and snowy at times. I honestly believe Tesla will just focus on actually finishing FSD in US and then start with the Europe and China next when they learn how to make it drive perfectly.
Thanks Steven.
Does seem regulations may hinder the end product somewhat, especially the 3 second interval, driver confirmations and prohibited lane changes into oncoming traffic.
IIRC further UNECE rules for level 4 and over are also in the works (was intended for a year or so after these rules?). Would be great to have an update on these also!
ADS (L3-L5) timeframe is preliminary for 2026. But you know this will take some extra years
Actually, it is very likely that the GRVA proposal is fast-tracked to the WP.29 session of March for voting and adoption, since it is already referenced in the meeting agenda. Add 6 months for the standard scrutiny period and you could be looking at the DCAS Regulation going live around September.
"provisional agenda" ;-) Of course they will try to get it on the agenda. Doesn't mean it will be discussed. We can always be pleasantly surprised. But all my sources keep saying "don't count on it". If it happens, I'll report on it again, of course, with a timeline for expected possible date. But even then, Tesla still has to certify for all the aspects
Thanks for sharing!!
Hi Steven, great video! Do you know if the same rules apply in the UAE? Or how I could find out? Thanks!
It doesn't seem that way. Here is the list of countries in the WP29 agreement: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_Forum_for_Harmonization_of_Vehicle_Regulations
Thank you for your detailed description. If all that regulation comes into play I don’t see coming Teslas FSD to reach Europe at all. Tesla will be able to do a lot and behave almost human like. But Teslas FSD 12 won‘t be able to function within those restrictions. Those regulations created by bureaucrats are a disgusting, unpractical, ridiculous nonsense. You get the impression those regulators try do do EVERYTHING STRICTLY RIGHT. But because the world is a complex and chaotic place this regulation attempt MUST fail - and so it does.
Sometimes when I drive I AM GUILTY. I sometimes use my FSD when I am distracted or tired. FSD right now has saved me and my car a couple of times and I am very thankful having this option right now. If the nagging time gets reduced to 5 seconds AND I am forced to be fully eyes on attending I could drive myself. There is NO POINT IN EVEN USING IT. So most likely I won’t use FSD any more if it gets THAT restrictive. This will lead to more unsafe and more dangerous drives, using my knees to steer and those bad behavior I didn’t use for 4 years now.
What a shame. I am very, very disappointed. And I lost hope for FSDs future in Europe.
Thank, great and important content!
I think Dcas rules are only for code based autopilot. So Tesla's FSD 12 will not be distributed in Europe?
If it sticks to the rules, there is no problem. As said before, the regulations state WHAT needs to happen, not HOW.
My model s with fsd package has no camera watching the driver. Guess that's going to be a blocker.
Same here with MX. I wonder how Tesla will cope with that.
They won't. You'll need to buy a newer car.
Virtual rescue lane...
Why should Tesla have to implement it (like you said in the end)?
Your text said: "If the system is capable of forming an access corridor" it has to do some things...
So if the system is not capable it is still allowed.
Because it is a legal requirement to do do in the countries that have these laws. If it doesn't do that, then we're back to the same useless AP system we have now.
In that case the driver would be required to disengage the system and drive manually until traffic clears and the virtual rescue corridor is no longer needed. That is not what we want.
@@BaldurNorddahl Exactly. That is what we currently have to do and it sucks
So if I turn off FSD/AP, the I am allowed to let go of the wheel, and look at the phone without getting warnings…
Did you mention round abouts? I didn't see anything. I live in Nantes, the city with the second most round abouts in the world. Thanks for the great work.
Yes, that is also part of the regulations. Mentioned it when I talk about the different purposes for lane changes
Really nice and detailed summary i hope we can get this through quickly and i am completely on your side with the cautious rollout to prevent misleading headlines as self driving car killed children there should be a clear direction given to the media what this will cause and it would set everybody back 5-10 years like with electric cars and their campaigns against them
Thank you for the videos i hope it will be enough to pay attention and apply force to the wheel for the car to confirm lane changes and exot roundabouts. When you need to confirm with the turn signal or buttos press it will be completely useless in my opinion
That is the system-initiated and driver-confirmed part
@@StevenPeeters yes but there is room for interpretation for example BMW got approval in Germany for confirmation for lange changes on the highway by only looking in the mirror
@@SailingFloh that is because of pure local exception regulations per country.
@@StevenPeeters Yes, that is what I hope that it can be interpreted in such a way that confirming with a look in the direction you are driving is sufficient as confirmation
@@SailingFloh you will still need to have your hands on the steering wheel though. So the difference with just a nudge, as we have to do now, would be negligible
Great video❤ tons of details
Hi Steven, from what I’ve read on the working document of the GRVA, all the system initiated part of the regulation were left « reserved ». Therefore are you sure about the system initiated maneuvers being part of what’s coming ? Also if by any chance it gets on the march WP29 agenda’s, will it then become available in June ? I don’t know if for exemple the chamber in Belgium need to adopt it and then it could delay things even if in place on unece level ?
Thank you a lot for the update, was waiting for it all week !
If March succeeds then maybe this summer could work. But even if that does work, Tesla has a lot of improvements to get through before they comply with these regulations. Maybe thst is hapoening in the background, but I’m more confident in the fact that they are now only waking up in Europe.
As for the system maneouvres, the text clearly says “driver-confirmed for system-initiated events”. The reserved parts are for the next iteration where we would get “system events without driver confirmation”
@@StevenPeeters Ok thank you for the precision. All will depend on what the so call driver confirmation is about then
Do you have any info on what level of FSD will become available for cars that do not (yet) have the interior camera installed? Or if Tesla could provide a hardware update for the interior camera?
Cars with no interior cam will temain at current level probably. Upgrades? Nobody knows
EOR timing is ridiculous, it's actually dangerous IMO when having to check lanes, mirrors etc.
How will the eyes on work with my Model S raven without interior camera?
It won’t
@@StevenPeeters does that mean they will retrofit a camera or refund my fsd purchase?
@@dezent Most likely neither. When you bought FSD there was a big disclaimer that all future features would depend on software validation and regulatory approval. They covered their asses that way
I have X. We should get FSD refunded if camera retrofit is not possible. I understood from this that driver monitoring camera becomes mandatory.
What potential impact will this have on Autopilot? You've mentioned that EU autopilot is running a 4 year old stack, so based on what you've read would this legislation allow EU markets to get to the same place as their north American counterparts?
Yes, but with the additional restrictions
EU driver here. I've noticed lately that my Tesla is giving me heads up notifications when looking at screen like 2-3sec when its wanting my attention. Lets say it blinks blue to give some nudge to steering wheel, it already starts to whine about "Pay attention to driving" or something like that. xD
Yes, the interior camera has been activate to actively monitor. This will become even more strict under DCAS
@@StevenPeetersYea but its is somewhat stupid when testa wants your attention and blinks something in the screen, you look at the screen and it starts crying "WATCH THE ROAD!" :D
Thank you for the great clarification video! I have one thing that is not clear to me... older cars have FSD, but don't have internal camera... any idea how can Tesla handle this? I'm thinking those cars will be out of this feature...
I’m guessing too that they will not be able to get the new features. But at this point, nobody knows for sure
@@StevenPeeters that would be a shame ... I've paid for it... A lot of money
@@GoncaloRijo andcthere has always been fine print that covers their asses 😢
What will the situation be for older models which do not have the inside camera to monitor the driver?
At this point, nobody knows. Probably they won't be able to get the functionality for DCAS. And before you ask, most likely Tesla will not do retrofits or paybacks, since there have always been fine print that said everything depends on software validation and regulatory approval
@@StevenPeeters Thanks Steven, not what I wanted to hear but I'm sure you are correct as always!
Hi
Just wondering if this will include the UK? Thanks for your work
As I mentiond in the beginning of the video, these are UN regulations, not EU.
If I look too long at the road ahead, the car wil complain. If I look more at things next to the road, not related to driving at all, the car is happy. Turning my head more when looking in the mirrors seem to help too. Recently I noticed that if I always make the wheel pull in the same direction, it will eventually stop working, I need to alternate the pull direction a bit. In the Netherlands it will only activate on main roads, rarely on roads with no line markings. We have a lot of roads where the center has not been marked on purpose, and on those roads Tesla will always drive in the middel of the wide road with v11. I hope we get v12 soon.
In the Netherlands you don’t gavecany verdion of fsd. Completely different software stack
Thanks for the video! Do you reckon that once it comes into effect in January 2025 manufacturers can already type-approve the system, or does it have to be transposed into EU law (2018/858 + 2019/2144) before type-approval can be done?
I don’t see the need for specific laws, like there is for L3. This is still a L2 system. I’m fairly confident that WP29 is the only remaining hurdle. Will check withy sources
I see, thank you
Sounds like nothing for older cars (no driver watching camera). But we are basically not getting even "normal" software updates anyway (still on 2023.26, while the replacement TM3 was on 2023.44)...
Current hardware won’t be going past L2 anyway. No redundancy that will be required
@@StevenPeetershw3 has redundancy in the FSD computer. Isn't that enough for level 3 highway?
@@BaldurNorddahl In the same way as Mercedes is doing: under optimal circumstances only. It' s the redundancy in sensors that will be a problem imho
So italy uk france spain germany will be able ti buy and use FSD. Beta tesla cars in january 2025 ?
What is funny is that AP1 was capable of a rescuelane .
Regarding auto lane change off highways. So we are getting back lane change assist after 4 years since it was removed 😂.
For the rest my fear is indeed they require visual driver monitoring.. meaning any older Tesla with FSD HW3 will never get FSD in Europa
Wrong news from Ron Patel,
Senior Global Director, Public Policy and Business Development at Tesla :
« We could make some small improvements to the older versions of FSD, based on the updated DCAS regulations at the end of the year. But unless there is an updated allowance for “system initiated” maneuvers, the full benefits of systems such as Supervised FSD are not type approvable.
The way the updated regulation works is that the driver would need to approve of almost every significant maneuver or set of maneuvers. Practically I’m not even sure how that might work or be designed, but it sounds like a massive pain/distraction for a driver - the opposite of the point of both the driver assistance and driver monitoring benefits of Supervised FSD »
Will make a recap vidro of the conversation after my current road trip
Tesla's auto speed limit adaptation in FSD v12 is quite impressive.
We’ll see. We have some real challenges for speed limits here in Belgium
@@StevenPeeters Every country, region, city, state, province, town, village has their own collection of unique scenario's. Everyone thinks they are the unicorn.
That's the beauty of training data. Feed it enough examples from the region it will drive in and it will learn to generalize for that region.
@@RobertLoPinto sure, but with hundreds of cars training in an area vs a few cars, that makes a big difference
@@StevenPeetersIt might take a couple of years of collecting real-world local data combined with simulated data to achieve high levels of autonomy in Belgium.
It won't take as long as it has in the US. It's similar to how ChatGPT4's model is being leveraged to train other neural nets in a fraction of the time with a fraction of the data. The base foundational model takes the longest. Subsequent derivations leverage the foundation and a flywheel results.
Also, much of the time in the US has been spent finding the right Neural Net architecture. The latest end to end approach of v12 has a high chance of being the correct one. In addition, Tesla is adding significant compute clusters. Only time will tell.
@@StevenPeeters simulation can fill gaps and quicken it up
Heel goede video. Ik ben van plan om tesla model Y te kopen (2022 of 2023 model). Ik weet niet of ik enhance pilot zou moeten bijnemen of niet. Kan ik deze achteraf nemen aan zelfde prijs, ik lees ook dat er maandabbonementen zouden zijn klopt dat?
Ja, kan achteraf aan zelfde prijs… tot Tesla besluit de prijs te verhogen ongetwijfeld wanneer fsd mag.
Subscriptions zijn enkel voor Noord-Amerila voorlopig
Danku, Er is naar schijnt een nieuwe recal update, indien je 2 seconden wegkijkt je al een waarschuwing krijgt. @@StevenPeeters
Hey Steven, great video. Still frustrated about our 2019 investment in FSD…
You might want to check the spelling of the word manoeuvres on your slides. You use two spellings 😏
Thanks for noticing. Much appreciated 🙏
Seriously what an idea to invest in a FSD in 2019 where as it was not approved and still not in 2023 and not soon either
It's not illegal to cross a white line. A white line only indicates that it's forbidden to take over other two-track vehicle vehicles driving in the same direction.
Stationary vehicles can legally be passed, as like any other obstruction. It's also legal to take over motorcycles and bicycles by crossing the line.
That might be the case in your country. But in Belgium, for example, you can only pass a cyclist as long as you don't cross the solid white line. Going over it is not allowed in any case.
When there is a vehicle in the road that isn't moving, I'm sure the police will just ignore that. But you don't want to have this situation on your driver's test for sure.
@@StevenPeeters interesting. In some countries like spain, the law says that for passing a cyclist you _have to_ go into the left lane (even if it’s a solid white line separating directions). I am pessimistic about Tesla being able to release a trained NN that works for all cases, since that requires going over each country’s special case, recording enough training sets, etc. I think they won’t have a working version until at least 2026, given their work pace and US centric approach
@@StevenPeeters interesting. I thought the European driving rules were harmonized after the EU driver license was implemented.
@@pablollopis908 in Germany you need to keep 1.5 m distance to a cyclist or 2 m if you're out of town or the cyclist is carrying a child on the child seat.
But this normally is the same as changing one lane over - so this part shouldn't be difficult to implement.
@@StevenPeetershere in Denmark we have double lines to signal that the line can not be crossed. Even in that case, we will still do it if the road is otherwise blocked.
Sounds like adas drivers will be required to be more attentive than manual drivers. Oh the irony.
Always has been this way. It is just being enforced now. These strict regulations are created because people can’t be trusted to use the system as intended. It’s because they misuse it, that we are being punished
When I had my Passat, I used to record videos, and I used to call them "Fully driving by myself" videos, maybe that's a thought for a new Tesla name. I do hope the UK doesn't follow the EU regulations to the letter though, that would be horrific
It’s nor EU, but UN regulation, as mentioned in the video
@@StevenPeeters ah thanks, I didn’t pick that up
So the regulators have ruined it.
Hope the UK outside the EU, has the balls to do something better.
Again, these sre UN regulations, not EU. Has nothing to do with Brexit or anything like that. UK is bound by the same regulations
@StevenPeeters If you need to confirm lane changes and traffic lights, it is hardly Self Driving is it?
UN ?
@@grahambrown42 it is NOT self driving but a driver aid. You are always responsible and need to be able to take over at any and all times.
@StevenPeeters I have purchased FSD on a Tesla, I would like to be able to use it.
@@grahambrown42you should not have bought it in the first place.
What a great news today ... I'm waiting for that because of my TH-cam channel topic. And FSD will give a great enhancement for disabled people.
Is there a chance that you allow me to do a video based on yours ?
Thanks for this great summary and for all your comments about regulatories.
The document is publicly available, so you are free to make your own content based on that document.
Absolutely bonkers. And since public traffic is a safety concern, I'd argue that the people who make this nonsense up, are a safety issue for public traffic.
ALL of this is SO stupid. This is why the EU is shit at Innovation
EU is more careful. Unlike US we do not do beta test on open roads risking harming people
I'm starting to feel some relief that I didn't order FSD on my new car. I'll just stick to standard Autopilot for now, I guess...
Thanks for the video. Very informative. Having read this regulation now.
I can't see how manufacturers will either be able to design the product specified, or, how the product specified would be useable on european streets. With the minimum indicator times, and minimum gaps required and specified turning speeds - the car will spend more time sitting and blocking traffic than working.
On the driver side. What happens if you haven't confirmed the manoeuvre in time ? Does the car grind to a stop ? Does it pull over ?
Doesn't sound like a workable solution to me...
Need to stop regulating by committee and stop going for least workable product
TBH I cannot find a sentence in the document that says "all manoeuvres have to be confirmed by the driver", so maybe thats not the case. Also this version of the doc is certainly not the last one, since there are still some sections to complete. So things may still change in the future ....
Agreed it's not the last version. However, each iterative change takes 6-12 months to take affect. So how long before the regulations are useable, manufacturers can prove they work to the legislations and gets into the public hands ?
Eeeeeeeendlich 😍
What countries in Europe??
All of them, as well as the other countries in the WP29 agreement, such as South-Africa and Australia, for example
They're late with their regulation... there are FSD cars without internal cameras out there.
Where?
Lane change Time is too slow. It doesn’t work on regular highway traffic
It can, if the system decides when to turn on the blinkers. 😉
@@StevenPeeters the current Tesla implementation doesn’t even work on France highway without autobahn craziness . Lane changes need to happen in sub seconds on busy highways. From init of the maneuver to finish
@@StevenPeeters The question is... can the system just turn on the blinkers for 7 seconds... wait if there is an opening... and if not turn them off. And right after that turn them on again and wait again. At least in your video there is no information that would indicate otherwise...
Of course that would be something that the regulation wanted to avoid. But in my opinion that would be a loophole?
@@PeterLonghorn00 it detects the oncoming gap first and then estimates where to turn on the blinkers
@@StevenPeeters But if it is a lange change because you have to get into the turning lane... does it still have to wait for a gap?
How do you do it if there are two turning lanes and the car is driving in the right one? Is it allowed to put on the blinker without there being a gap?
There are so many situations where that can be problematic.
Interesting to see what will happen to those who drive a Tesla without inside cameras. Second: If all self human drivers would fulfill what those crazy regulations demand for FSD and AP there would be no accidents anymore. Geez! Totally ridiculous.
As said, 1 single accident with a semi-autonomous car will make all the headlines and will set things back for years
Oh yes, that’s absolutely true. I hope at some point in the very near future it will be the other way round: it will make the headlines if a human causes an accident because of manual driving. That would be awesome 😅👍🏼
Haha i love the us paradigm being at odds with not-us Paradigm. Safety is more important here. Furthermore the us is coloring outside the lines as it were. Its lvl 2.. But in the us you are allowed to pretend its more than that..
If the technology is so advanced it should he lvl 3 or more and be able to certify it as such.. beta or no. Driving is still driving
Im not in agreement with all these points of course.. but the spirit of it all makes total sense to me.
Tesla needs to take the speedlimit data froma Waze. Is 99% of the time correct.
With a large fleet of cars gathering data, comprehensive speed limit data should be a march of 9s. Much higher than 99%.
Tesla will require something like chat gpt to read through the ever changing rules and relay that to FSD in realtime.
It is not changing quickly at all, so that is no problem. Tesla and other brands are involved in the discussions too, so they knowcexactly what will be coming and are helping shape that regulation
Well. Sorry. 13 seconds and constant beeping for hands and ayes? This is supposed to relax the task of driving. Not increase the workload navigating constant barrage of warnings! This is not going to be useful at all. Better just to drive by myself instead. Much less stressful
It is actually more stressful because you have to oversee the machine. As I said many times: this is NOT self driving. Seems to be a very hard concept to grasp for many people
@@StevenPeeters Well i know what it is. It has never up to this point been a self driving system. But this is moving the task of driving to monitoring something unknown for most people. It’s NOT ASSISTING the driver, it’s adding a completely new workload onto the driver for which no real training is provided. Yeah yeah, some video training. Far cry from real training. The EU has once again taken a reasonably simple task and made it into madness. Let the system do exactly what it can do in America. It’s NOT self driving there either. And as long as the system is a level 2 system it’s still the driver that is responsible. They have taken everything else away, even speeding from the equation and the whole idea of driver assist systems in any form is to offload the driver, not add new stuff to take in and then act upon. EU is so backwards when it comes to technology that it questionable that they even should have a say in it. Just look at side loading iOS apps, forcing RCS on iPhones, mandatory spying capabilities and the whole Cookie debacle with constant popups that sometimes requires a degree to understand just to do anything online and every single time you visit a page you have already visited. This is not something the EU should be engaged in. It always complicates things beyond comprehension
@@driver288 I understand the frustration. But NHTSA is also coming down hard on Tesla because the driver is not paying attention. Here, they are making sure that you will be paying attention.
I don't like it either, but if you use the system as intended, then it should be no problem. We will see once it rolls out and I get the chance to test it. That is the real stock of truth. Right now it is just a text that nobody complies with.
Trust me, it's better than not having FSD at all. You will adapt. It won't be as stressful as you think. I speak from personal real world experience driving with FSD beta on the local streets here in NYC.
@@RobertLoPinto Hi! You don’t on the other hand have all these nagging proposed by the EU. That’s the whole difference!. Do you have to touch the steering wheel every 15 seconds with FSD Beta in the US? Your car can do autonomous lane changes right? And the empty space in the lane you’re merging into has to be 6m as opposed to 36m here. Your FSD beta car can indicate and turn off at off ramps, right? Well depending on what driver confirmed means it could be a lot worse than it used to be. Now lane changes in the EU has to be confirmed with the indicator being manually turned on by the driver to start the lane change. If i have to confirm every movement the car wants to do then what’s the point?!? I bought my model 3 with FSD and what have I gotten out of it? Auto parking that now for some reason requires perfect internet connection to even show the interface in the display, wasn’t the case before. Now I can’t use it in the multi car garage i park in because of spotty connection. For me FSD has only gotten worse by the year since i got the car. I’m not sure my next car, if it’s a Tesla is getting FSD since it’s so crippled here. I’d rather just pay for what i can use, upgraded AP which basically is what we have here now. And if we are looking at Jan 25 for FSD beta a la the US, it’s time to replace this one anyway
WTF is this “approve every single manoeuvre”
Because the car is NOT full self driving, but just a L2 driver aid. You are responsible for every action
Dr knowitall send me here. :) I subscribed.
So, FSD with a lot of limitations that might be impossible to implement in FSD which has been trained by AI.
EU = failed.
Honestly, who put in charge these idiots of this topic. I still don’t understand what is the reasoning behind the lateral g-force limit
Seat farting bureaucrats gone wild. VOTE at the EU elections !
No Teslas "Full" Self Driving is not coming to Europe.
Watch the video. I never talk about true full self driving, but the L2 system
😱👌🤘😍✌️
Except that you still need to confirm every lane change. So basically these rules define what NOA currently does.... So nothing is going to change.
Regarding the speed limits. It is already implemented like that.
Further more the even more insane stricter driver monitoring makes it all more ridiculous. Forget ANY FSD as Tesla currently does not work like that in the US so they will not going to work like that.
Regarding hands on.. man... Because of the crappy torque based implementation this is going to be completely useless. Especially as currently the car already can disable autopilot for a week !!!! This is going to make that even worse if Tesla is going to comply to this..
So... Nope, nog getting FSD at all... Just a more crappy NOA experience
Those 2 are completely separate. DCAS is all about city driving, not highways
@@StevenPeetersexcept that Tesla no longer has 2 different stacks and merged highway and city driving
@@StevenPeeters second, confirming *every* lane change, speed bump brake, crosswalk brake/pass, corner, merge which all could happen in 100 meters... The people that write all that down should give me some of the pills they are taking because that must give some epic hallucinating trips
do "BlueCruise" making it blue outside? or "Super Cruise" make it super? No? So why you trying make one name be important, and other not? Because you don't read instructions and own preconception taking as something reality?
BTW where is not FSD, there is only FSD Beta... yeah you don't even remember name correct, because you want to be right, so do anything to be...
2:00 so that people don't reading instruction is Tesla fault? As you put cat in microwave is producer fault because you didn't read instruction? What a world, double standard.
2:15 as every car have same way to activate automatic transmission... no? Oh why? Because there is not reason to make all system works same, this is not safety element, is user responsibility. Even breaks can works different. For real, what a world, make everything same, one government system prefer it, and wasn't it good system, difference is good, because with time better solutions will be selected, when you force everybody to do same, you will never have evolution. Even CSS vs NACS, 2nd is better, but EU force first, because auto makers didn't want add switch in car so users now must use problematic standard, as it would be if cellphone charging standard would be select in 90's, with time better where created, and not much left to do with USB-C so it could become standard, because at most all producers use it, but before it, it would be stupid to select any.
NACS cannot handle 3-phase AC power. That is already a reason why it's not a good choice. And I did say that it is the driver's responsibility to be informed, but that the manufacturer needs to provide the information/training material. The regulations say WHAT needs to happen, not HOW.
@@StevenPeeters NACS can handle 350kW charging and 800V (today, it couldn't in past), how many phase there is not important, because car in CSS get low AC or DC and DC do not have phases. So... what are you talking about?
"but that the manufacturer needs to" they need to provide instruction, but it have to be in any form, what form, why government deciding it? And instructions are always added, so why you mention, if it is not about format? And everybody agree there should be instruction, funny, but I would more attack instruction for smartphones or that they don't have.
@@m_sedziwoj I’m not talking about DC but AC, which is what 80% of your charging is. CCS2 can also handle 350kW and even 500kW. It’s a standard and not something everyone needs an adapter for. That is one thing the the UNECE does do right
@@StevenPeeters AC you use mostly at home, so... to fast charge you use always DC, because resistance. So I don't get where you get this AC info, because is max at 43 kW, and DC is up to 350kW.
I found what 3-phase is up to 166kW, but it was only on wiki, so... how common it is, and DC is still better because less losses and faster, so for public/onroad chargers is better, and AC (cheap for home, where converter is in car) is better for home, where you don't need fast charging.
So from user perspective NACS is still better. And looking what most car makers in USA is moving to this standard, mean something, they agree that is at last as good, because they have to invest a lot of money to change they production and contracts.
And don't reminds you old phone connectors and USB-C, where was many pins in old, and all was "needed".
Physics is unchanged whatever you preference are, and fast charging should be done by DC, but converters are not cheap, so for home better use in car converter, which is smaller, because it is needed for converting from batteries (DC) to motors (AC). So AC is good because is cheap, not because is better.
@@m_sedziwoj I don’t care about your NACS crush. It is not better than CCS2 in compatibility. It is only nowxstarting to become a US standard and has a very long way to go to replace all public charging stations. AC charging is what you do the most, be it at home or public charging. The speed doesn’t matter. The fact that you can charge on any charger hassle free, that is what matters. DC charging is for long distance driving. And for DC, the Tesla charger is good. Not for AC compatibility