I watched Rich play the game on twitch channel. He was fucking awesome with his slo mo slides and over cover slo mo shots. Maybe they need to play it with jack watching and learning.
The game has issues, but jack saying he felt it was more advantaged to stay in cover makes me feel like maybe he didnt quite get a feel for how the game is meant to be played. Yes the rockets are limited, but it does give you plenty to zoom around the map without making it too easy.
haha yeah, thats the problem jack doesnt seem to get he sucked at it, and DID play it wrong haha.. he turtled up and sucks hard, so he thought the game was bad. its a MAJOR aspect of the gameplay, he just rocketed right into the fucking thick of it, not actually use it strategically its like saying metal gear sucks because you never used stealth, or saying shadow of the colossus is bad and you never actually fought one, just rode around on the horse or hell, saying bloodborne has bad weapons and only used your fists
PH TG Thank you! Aparently it's this masterpiece of game design, and I fucking love good game design, and yet even with rocket boots and slomo it was just boring. I didn't have fun with it, even though a game like Doom I fucking love. Usually I don't agree with Jack (I mean, firewatch, come on) but he's right.
Torgo Gorgo When I say he's "right" I mean that he has valid complaints. I wanted to love this game, but it was just a grind. The game never actually encitiviced movement, and suffered because of it. And yes that is kind of the definition of the word right because what you consider right and wrong is based on what you believe in.
It kind of reminds me about a common Dark Souls criticism from fans of the series. The early game teaches you how to play defensively, and if you're a bad player (like me) you make much better progress by playing that way. And then experienced players say no, you should be moving and dodging and parrying because that's more effective - and more fun. But unless I spend a long time being frustrated, dying a lot and making almost no progress, I'm not going to learn to be good enough at those aspects to play the "fun" way. Of course, these things are fixable - Bloodborne just mixed up the combat design to remove that play style, Doom encouraged aggressive play with the drops from executions - but if the game encourages you to play "wrong", then it's a problem with the game. Not as big of a problem as there not being a fun way to play at all (hello the majority of 3rd person cover-based shooters), but still not ideal.
I started Dark Souls building a clanking beeftank. It's not an accident that many new players end up that way. It's by far the most forgiving style -- able to to dish out some pretty respectable damage once it can single-wield the bigger swords, but also has high poise and block values. I contend that the game is still fun this way, but I'm more of a plodding defender type by inclination, so I actually enjoy shrugging off huge hits as much as I enjoy dodging them. At one point I was tanked so hard, people would invade me, go stabbity-stabby-stab, then just kind of step back and pause, and I could practically hear the other player saying, "He's not staggered......How the FUCK was he not staggered by that??" Had to teach myself to play more aggressively, ended up with a medium-roll axe/spear guy I quite liked. Had fun with a relatively flimsy Sorcerer in DS3. Have yet to try a fully speedtanked ninja type character. Someday I'll go back.
this is exactly the same issue you guys had with Bayonetta. The game doesnt force you to play the "right way", so you end up just doing the same combo over and over again because you can get away with it and beat the game no problem. This is a major design issue and really the only way to circumvent that is to set challenges for yourself and experiment.
its not a design issue, its company politic. they dont force people to play the game the rigth way, thats why so many people dislike their games. they care about the company brand and sales(they get payed for publishers fo their work). they make briliant games, for people with very special tastes. Bayo and NieR sold realy badly, but have realy strong fan bases, because those people who like the style, realy realy love it.
i think its a design flaw. The game should always strive to give you the "real experience". I understand that they give depth to the people who want it, but a game should be built so the player realizes he needs to get good at the game to make progress, otherwise you are just mindlessly mashing buttons. The people who love these games are the people who go out of the beaten path to get good at the game and discover its complexity. But the people who dont, are usually the ones who didnt care for the combat mechanics and felt they could beat the game by using the same combo over and over again.
This is why the souls series works. It has one difficulty. You dont get to choose how easy or hard the game is, it has one kind of experience and you either try to understand its mechanics to get the upper hand, or you give up like a little bitch. Thats how game design should be.
Honestly? I completely understand what Jack is saying. I think some people here are being deliberately daft and not understand his point. I'm not saying he's totally right, just that I get his position. And also Rich used the same line of logic before and got shat on for it, so I'm wondering where the disconnect is... If a game told me it was all about speed, and then I play it and the gameplay doesn't emphasize it enough OR is too easy playing slow, I'd say the game was flawed. DOOM 2016 works so well because the game never stops emphasizing that _you must move or you will die._ Jack played Vanquish not moving, and won. That doesn't seem like his fault completely.
" TheGoldenCaulk except the game punshies you for playing it slow by being dull and boring if you want to try the combos you need to play it well " You don't understand how the human mind works. People will generally fall back on using the most effective strats that takes the least effort. Even if it results in something being less fun. If it's more fun to do elaborate combos but it's also much harder to beat bosses/enemies with it over say spamming a 3 button combo over and over because it stunlocks the enemy then that's what most people will use. It's entirely the game designers fault for designing the game like this. Vanquish is not even remotely perfectly designed. The idea that the game punishes you for using the cool moves on your suit is frankly dumb. Make it a seperate resource or put it on a cooldown, don't make it burn your defence. Platinum makes solid games, not perfect ones.
If people make the choice to go the easy route, then that's squarely on them, not the game. Vanquish was designed to let players play the game however they want. They can keep it simple and stay back in cover, where it's safe, or go for broke and be stylish if they so choose to do so while learning the capabilities of the game's untapped depth. The game only punishes you for using these cool moves if you're using them ineffectively. Melee attacks, for example, can destroy enemies and even mini-bosses in one go at the cost of overheating your suit, so no shit you'll be punished if you decide to use it in a crowded area and just take out one enemy. Vanquish follows the same kind of risk-reward philosophy that games like Devil May Cry and Bayonetta implement. In those games, you can simply choose to ignore all the cool stuff you can do and just button mash one combo and beat the game just fine while earning a decent/low score. The equivalent to this in Vanquish is staying back in cover and not bothering to explore what else you're capable of doing. And just like with DMC and Bayo, Vanquish is a game meant to be replayed so that you can get better and better, because the game can be (and IS) an exhilarating experience when you've mastered the game's concept and controls. This mentality that people will fall back and use the most effective strategy (because that's "how the human mind works" lol) needs to go away. Even if a large majority of people play like this, that doesn't mean there isn't an audience out there that loves to be challenged with what a game throws at them. Vanquish has a lot going for it yet it easily gets swept under the rug since so many people are accustomed to playing a typical 3rd person shooter, and Vanquish is anything BUT a typical 3rd person shooter. th-cam.com/video/_UEnHCPfALc/w-d-xo.html
SetnaroX yeah it's just gears of war with the brightness cranked up and some rocket boots. You should relax. You can like it all you want but when the dominant strategy is super boring that IS on the designers
It's a safe strategy, not a dominant strategy. Every enemy in the game, especially the midsize mini-bosses and tanks, have weakpoints in their back side, which you can't shoot at if you stay in cover. Shooting these parts will destroy enemies in a matter of seconds as oppose to simply shooting the front end where it takes much longer to do, even if you aim for the head. To get to these backside, you have to make full use of your dodging and boosting skills, along with actually understand what each every weapon is capable of. It's way more than just "Gears of War with rocket boosting". Actually spend some time viewing what high skilled players are able to do, and you'll see it's more than just the silly wall bouncing nonsense that Gears of War has going for it.
Some people like Platinum games, some people hate them. This is a perfect video to showcase the two sides of it, and exactly how both sides look at their games and how they can't understand why the other loves/hates it so much.
Jack... wtf. This isn't like saying "oh you didn't play it on hard", you refused to use the most basic mechanics that the whole game design is built around. I also found it hard and frustrating at first, but like with any hard game I powered through until I got the hand of it, and then it was pure bliss.
I think it's unfair to say that he refused to use the mechanics. Y'know the quote "given the opportunity, players will optimize the fun out of a game"? As the rest of the quote goes, "one of the responsibilities of designers is to protect the player from themselves." Vanquish is a great game but it seems like Platinum did not succeed in that responsibility. Rich said in the video that he did not think Jack's criticism was wrong. Let's be like Rich
Wow. I finally find someone that loves this game as much as I did. This game is so under rated. Much fun to be had and the action is over the top which makes it a blast to play. Thanks for covering this guys! and yes Jack played it wrong!
Jack likes to notice a lighter grey spot in a wall, hit it with a sword, and be rewarded. Rich's reward is to skillfully master a games controls and beat some ass. This is how PreRec works.
Thank You very much. I DID enjoy that loop of Rich. Also, I think it's the pinnacle of irony that Rich dresses so poor. OH! Big fan of RLM and PR. You guys are great, and Rich is one of my favorite internet presences.
Rich is right . I bought the game when it came out and I couldn't grasp the mechanics properly and still beat the game. Years later I jumped back in and really dove into how to rocket boot and use the slow mo correctly and it was a different game. One of my favorite games to just jump in and play from time to time. Vanquish and the EDF games are my go too fun games
1. rich is always right. 2. Jack is a casual gamer, he doesnt has the time or the skills to learn a complex game. its not his fault, he has a wife, children, a social life, etc. rich on the other hand had 20 years to learn how to play video games.
@@nox5555 1. tums festival 2. i would hardly call a game complex when it can be beat by simple cover shooting mechanics. this is one of those cases where a dev put a bunch of cool, fancy shit in their game, but failed to give you a compelling reason to do any of the fancy shit other than for the sake of doing it and a completely arbitrary score at the end of each level.
I had the same problem as Jack when I tried this game years ago. I didn't play it "right". The game didn't teach me how to get the most out of the core mechanics. I thought it was pretty bland, but when I watched my friend play it was a different game. Rich should share some of his gameplay to show us how truly amazing Vanquish can be.
You can give Jack as much shit as you want, but he's not wrong about a lot of these things. The lack of enemy and visual variety is not a minor gripe. .
yes he had some valid points. tho the visual variaty I don't quite get. it's a space station, and they did variaty pretty well being tied to essentially one place.
did THEY (I've never seen them use more than the slideslomo) actually know that the slomo actiavates in pretty much every animation possible? pretty much every time you're airborne, you can slow down time. side roll, jump from a cover, jump over the cover, after a rocketkick etc. edit: small tip: rocketkick a wall, free backflip slomo
Vanquish's HUD features a score counter by default and there's an obligatory score brief after each mission, that also puts a time counter that awards you bonus points right in your face, it's almost like the game is trying to tell you something about what's the intended way to play. And the other thing is, you can frequently dodge massive amounts of fire with your basic roll even if it doesn't give you invulnerability frames. So the trade-off for being allowed to constantly be on the offensive and using bullet time powers all the time is having to do similarly impressive dodging while it cools off and trying to never go into overheat since it's deadly on open ground. As for how unfamiliar it might be to new time players...if you've played Dark Souls, you've probably rolled past projectile attacks, now imagine the skeleton archers use chainguns instead of crossbows and you're not allowed to dodge towards fire, but otherwise, same basic deal. :)
6 minutes in and Jack's breaking my heart. Yes, of course if you rocket into the middle of an arena surrounded by enemies you're gonna get owned. The whole point is to constantly keep pushing the envelope until you become a badass warrior. You're not gonna master all the mechanics on the first few stages. Even after beating it a few times I finished my first hard mode run with an average of 10 deaths an hour. That's how it's supposed to be. Also, you gotta constantly reference the map so you know where the enemies shooting from.
the way Jack describes his gripes about Vanquish is like someone playing Bayonetta without using witch time and the only combo they use is punch 5× / kick 5×
666or999 Actually it is, considering there are numerous stylish gameplay videos for vanquish, showing how the game was meant to be explored. He sucks at vanquish and doesnt know the how i frames or any of that work.
Yet he still beat perfectly fine without any of their sparkling new mechanics. When you are designing a game around a particular mechanic, it's a pretty good idea to actually encourage players to use that mechanic. Seemingly this game doesn't do that well at all.
It's great, they're both completely right. There's a lot of bad design choices that bring down all of the cool stuff. What i'd do is take away the cover and the regenerating health, turn melee attacks into glory kills and make them regenerate health and meter. Also, rocket boosting should drain either no meter at all or very little.
I actually had the same problem as Jack playing it and I have a simple idea to promote movement. Enemies that need to be flanked to be killed, and a general bonus to damage on a flanked enemies.
The way Jack played the game is how I played the game, so I understand where he's coming from. It's like how I couldn't understand Monster Hunter as well. It's not until I saw what amazing things that could be done in these games that I really got into it. Vanquish really didn't tell you the amazing melee system it had going on for it and the cigarette thing was a mystery to me until I looked it up online. For some reason, it didn't even click with me the symbol on the HUD with the cylindrical shape was a cigarette counter. I think a bit of hand holding at the beginning would have helped people understand more of the mechanics.-
What really stood out to me in this video is that, at least from what I saw in this video, they did not share their experiences or play together before this. Jack tried it on his own, didn't have much success with the abilities so he just didn't use them. He settled in this stance and Rich wasn't there to try to explain how and where to best use them. I mean- I haven't played the game, but that's the impression I get.
Here, I think Jack stumbled upon one of the lesser discussed issues with games as an interactive medium, and that is the inherent conflict between competitive drive and game/level design. By attempting to make a cover-based shooter game that wasn't kind of lame, Platinum discovered why taking cover in a firefight is a thing. Because running around like an idiot is a great way to get yourself killed. I think the reason Vanquish is more of a cult classic than beloved by all is because the only real incentive to play the game as it was meant to be played is to be stylish and cool. There isn't enough mechanical or aesthetic reward to sliding around and doing cool shit. It's actually a bad strategy, even if it's more fun. I'm reminded of Max Payne 3, in which they kept all the mechanics of the previous series, but enemies started taking cover. So you'd do a slow moton dive looking to shoot a bunch of baddies, and they're all freaking hiding. So you'd land on the floor like an idiot soaking up bullets. Much is made about how the game emphasizes "movement," but it actually doesn't. Your character is just _fast_, that's way, way different than a game that emphasizes movement. You have all the exact same movement options in GoW or any of its imitators, you're just not nearly as fast. If anything, the rocket boots emphasize how important it is to _not_ move, or rather, that when you do, you better get out of the way pretty damn quickly. And the other primary mechanic the game has, the slow motion, ironically is there specifically because moving that fast is crippling because you can no longer aim or dodge properly at that speed because you can't process what's happening. I imagine they had to introduce this mechanic pretty early on without planning for it, when they realized it was impossible to slide around and shoot things without it, particularly with a controller. With a bit of polish, I think Vanquish could actually be amazing. But as it stands now, you sort of have to cooperate with it and just ignore the fact that all of the fun stuff in the game is a really dumb idea tactically and competitively. And that can be irritating if you like to play games like they're exploitative systems rather than just stylish funtime. Fans of the game mistake this for "not being good at the game" but it's actually very clearly the other way around. The game's mechanics don't mesh well with what a successful strategy is in a third person shooter. And they aren't rewarding enough aesthetically to incentivize the player to mess around with them for any extrinsic reason. I'd contrast it with something like the Souls series, which also has similar overpowered strategies (long range magic, poison, co-op, etc.) that exist primarily to sort of ease the game's difficulty. But fighting enemies at close range by yourself is very tense, very fun, and _equally_ rewarding. So you're incentivized to get better at it, and it's where the game really shines. In Vanquish, your primary tools are so ineffective, it doesn't really make sense to play the game that way at any point. So your mileage in this game depends enormously on how intrsinsically fun you find it to slide around in slo-mo shooting stuff. And you have to like that _more_ than you like playing the game well, and for a _long_ time, because there isn't much else in the game. I'd recommend Vanquish to anyone, just because it's so unique and cool. And its over-the-top story and atmosphere are the best. But it's far from a masterpiece. As a game, it has a lot of flaws, which is why its design never really caught on. It needs more emphasis on verticality, missiles or other dodgeable projectiles rather than undodgeable hitscan style bullets, health/energy gained either in the environment or from killing enemies (fuck regenerating anything, it's a fundamental failure in design unless your goal is to make the player wait), better enemy variety, guns that don't emphasize aiming so much (again, it's why you need slomo, you can't hit anything precisely while moving around), and arenas much more cluttered with nooks and crannies to weave in and out of. A better color pallette and better lighting would help a hell of a lot too, the game is far too grey most of the time.
I can support Jack on his overhype theory, where Rich built expectations to high. It happens pretty commonly with movies I think. He might have mentioned it in (at least) a dozen episodes, but even off camera I'm sure it came up quite often.
10:42 So besides Jacks magnificent crossed legs, something else kind of caught my eye. They have 18 copies of "Babe" and about 42 copies of something ending with "ukie". I wonder what the hell that "ukie" film is?
Jack basically bought a Ferrari and thought it'd be nice to drive it around at 45mph since going faster would get you a ticket. PS> Driving a High Performance car around at city speeds actually does damage to said engine. Yes Jack, You played it wrong. You didn't play the game, you simply accomplished beating the boss.
Rich is 100% correct here. Don't listen to Jack people. 'Vanquish', like Rich said, is one of the greatest games ever made. Praying this remaster comes out on PS4 soon...
"ChkchkchkchkChkchkchkchkChkchkchkchkChkchkchkchkChkchkchkchkChkchkchkchkChkchkchkchkChkchkchkchkChkchkc" more entertaining than any of the actual game footage.
Gotta side with Rich on this one. Vanquish is played for the combat mechanics. Willfully playing the game in the slowest, most boring way possible and then complaining about enemy variety and level design is kind of missing the point. Yeah, those things could have been improved but when you're zipping around and pulling off badass stuff most other games have to go to cutscenes for, who cares?
Oreoleo ooo it sounds like jack is conditioned to play it like a typical fps nowadays. I haven't played it but I know id probably feel similar to him, but I can also see exactly why he played it like that. I'm not one to like gimmicky things like what makes this apparently special, it looks cool as fuck, but Jack has always seemed as more of the casual gamer id probably call myself too.
like honestly his feelings on this sound something like how I feel about the Lost Planet games. everyone I know talks so highly of them, but it must be the way I play them because I find them borderline unplayable.
Jack has a solid point though. If they just took the cover out of the game it would be more fun, because it teaches you this is the smartest way to play. Some players like running and gunning, and others like like playing optimally.
But Vanquish is TIMED, your run and gun IS optimal, aggressive play scores higher. So you can play it slow, but then you're never really going to "win." Since the purpose is to do it fast. No one cares THAT you can solve a Rubix cube, its how fast and what impairments can you have and still succeed. Jack just wants the puzzle finished, even if it takes 3 days.
The optimal way to play the game should also be the most fun. If hiding behind cover was better for Jack than using the fun movement mechanics, then you've got game design problems.
A) Thank you Rich for recommending Vanquish, it's fucking awesome just like you said B) Rich is right, the robots skittle on the floor if you shoot their legs off, it's pretty cool! C) Love Jack, but he really did play the game wrong... Don't like that term, but seriously ... I spent 90% of the the game out of cover, i had a 7 percent at the end :D
The irony of Rich bringing out the "You played it wrong" argument! Great review though. You do compare it to Doom with it being fast-paced,but Doom had better enemy and weapon variety (half the guns in Vanquish are gimmick weapons). Also Vanquish repeats boss fights way too much. Am fighting a boss a second time,but when you do it a third time,it just comes off as extremely lazy. Also if they didn't want you to take cover,why have a regen health system,like the ones used in cover shooters?
I usually side with Rich's opinion about all the games they review but I got give to Jack this time. The game really gives you no incentive to go out of cover, especially when almost all weapons have huge range.
I play Vanquish with the Sniper Rifle; arguably the damn slowest weapon in the game. But the fact it lets me jet across the ground, score two headshots, hit a barrier and fling into the air, then hit three more headshots, is what makes the game such a joy. Jack doesn't seem to understand a crucial factor of Platinum Games; your first playthrough is the tutorial. In that time your going to have to take what you THINK you know, and shove it into a corner. Let the game show you the basics, then come back and go for the A-game.
I personally didn't think Vanquish was anything special, controls didn't feel tight enough for me, level design was bit messy, art design mostly derivative with nothing really standing out and the story and dialogue was complete insta-skippable shit. I think most people at the time thought it was just an ok game. So whenever Rich mentioned this was his favorite game, I wrote it off as a personal quirk, a guilty pleasure, a game that just felt right to him. Which is fine, I've got one of those too. I absolutely fucking love Far Cry 2, even though I realise the game has a lot of shortcomings and faults. Of course I scroll down the comments now and it seems like EVERYBODY loves this game.
Honestly while i share the same opinion as Rich i have to take Jack's side with the problems. Having a mechanic that incentivizes style and quick gameplay like pickups that drop when youre boosting. While i love the game i had to stick to cover more than i wouldve liked due to how hp and overheat worked
Jack is so patient. At 6:22 when it's obvious Rich is going on a long winded metaphor about wasting a good thing, Jack obviously knows exactly that i's a story just meant to demean his opinion. Yet he just sits there and listens patiently for 40 fucking seconds.
Stop me if I'm wrong, everyone... but I'm beginning to feel deep inside that Jack's not that great at video games that aren't retro-style platformers/arcade-ish games/Binding of Isaac. Don't be mad if you're reading this, Jack. I still love you! 👍✌️
No, you're absolutely right. Jack is unable to grasp complex controls in games. Take the Arkham series: The gameplay is very smooth and has controls that are easy to learn, yet Jack constantly struggled through those games. He doesn't take time to learn combos or mechanics in most games, since he is accustomed to games where there are only basic controls to master (Binding of Isaac). After failing to do these things, we then get to hear him complain about how the game wasn't made right and it was too difficult to learn.
LET ME STOP YOU RIGHT THERE! Wait, that doesn't work with online comments at all! damn you for getting my hopes up! No but seriously, I think the fact that Jack struggles with complex game mechanics actually adds a lot to the balance of their reviews. You can always identify with either Rich or Jack depending on what kind of gamer you are, and you feel less stupid if you don't like games like Vanquish if you fail at them constantly. Not that _I_ would fail at these games, I'm just... asking for a... friend
No even close. Do you eat pizza crust First? Do you get in your car from the passenger side and cross over the center console to get in the driver seat? Both are options you can take, both go against the design of said item. You can't fault a product for not being able to do what it wasn't designed to do. Jack CHOSE to play the game in a way the would LOWER HIS END GAME SCORE and decided he cared more about simply completing the game. He bought the wrong game for that. Its a freeform arcade shooter that takes you till the end where you fight the boos the end. Vanquish Cover Style is played by those who simply want to say they played and beat the game. Because any person who did the opposite got a better score and are labeled better and more competent. From there Jack can tell us about the Mechanics make the game hard to complete....
The Driftersoul It's one of my favourite games but he is right. The level design isn't always so suited to the high speed movement and the restriction of the energy bar makes it safer to stay in cover. The game isn't perfect. If it had destructible cover (as Rich suggests) and Doom's health system it would be a better game.
I think Destructibles would indeed have helped, but I just can't personally buy Jacks argument. From what he was saying, to me it sounded like he tried to actually play and it was too difficult so he relegated himself to playing on Automatic Easy Mode and complained it was too easy. But didn't take the time to understand the mechanics of the game. Now I'm not saying he HAS too, they game may not be for him in that case. Same way I don't play Souls games because it seems repetitive and grindy to me. However Jack loves and I wouldn't fault him for that because the games play-style was not for me. And I wouldn't call the game bad for that very reason. I would even argue that Jack would call the game worse because of the ease of Death still in play as Jack stated that merely goes higher once Jack cant hold behindcover. Unlike Nathan Drake, this guy isn't a bullet sponge + regenerating health. You get popped quick.
it's perfectly valid to complain that a game is bad at feedback and player teaching, and Vanquish is awful at both of those. Even the scoring, the most direct possible method of telling a player how well they did, is presented as a completely contextless set of arbitrary numbers. Someone new to the game has no basis for understanding what a good score in the game even is in the first place, much less what they're being scored on. It's the same fundamental reasons that Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde on the NES is widely held as one of the worst games ever made (not that Vanquish is as bad as that game, but I think you get what I mean). Seriously, I love Vanquish, but people like Jack are 100% right in criticizing it.
The right way to play a game is the most optimal way. If using only cover is the most optimal, then sliding around like a moron is the wrong way to play the game.
Goddamnit, I miss Pre Rec.
Whathappened to it?
Rich got his wish of PC vanquished so they ended the channel
likewise....
It is Jack's fault
*When you find a song that just clicks with you, and then you try to show it to someone else.
I watched Rich play the game on twitch channel. He was fucking awesome with his slo mo slides and over cover slo mo shots. Maybe they need to play it with jack watching and learning.
Agreed. Rich should show Jack what playing the game "right" looks like.
Agreed. Watching Jack Play for just those short clips..... damn .....
Ya boi basically watched himself playing Vanquish while playing Vanquish
Rich has also played this game about 500 times more than Jack.
The game has issues, but jack saying he felt it was more advantaged to stay in cover makes me feel like maybe he didnt quite get a feel for how the game is meant to be played.
Yes the rockets are limited, but it does give you plenty to zoom around the map without making it too easy.
haha yeah, thats the problem jack doesnt seem to get
he sucked at it, and DID play it wrong haha.. he turtled up and sucks hard, so he thought the game was bad. its a MAJOR aspect of the gameplay, he just rocketed right into the fucking thick of it, not actually use it strategically
its like saying metal gear sucks because you never used stealth, or saying shadow of the colossus is bad and you never actually fought one, just rode around on the horse
or hell, saying bloodborne has bad weapons and only used your fists
I've never seen Jack be good at a game.
Mario Cart
Yeah it's only fun if you make it fun in Vanquish
Pack Jackard has been struggling with noobitis his whole life
great game
Public service announcement:
Jack played through the majority of DOOM 2016 without knowing he had the chainsaw. That tells you all you need to know
you're shitting me...
🙈
I love how everything Rich said to Jack (about him not playing it right) can be said about both of them in the Bayonetta video.
Vanquish is a lot like Sonic. The game keeps telling me to go fast, but every time I do I crash into a wall and lose all my rings.
PH TG Thank you! Aparently it's this masterpiece of game design, and I fucking love good game design, and yet even with rocket boots and slomo it was just boring. I didn't have fun with it, even though a game like Doom I fucking love. Usually I don't agree with Jack (I mean, firewatch, come on) but he's right.
Fritz it sounds like you just think people are "right" when they agree with you.
Torgo Gorgo When I say he's "right" I mean that he has valid complaints. I wanted to love this game, but it was just a grind. The game never actually encitiviced movement, and suffered because of it. And yes that is kind of the definition of the word right because what you consider right and wrong is based on what you believe in.
git gud
You cant even praise the sun in this game because it's so brown and grey.
I love you guys, please keep on making these amazing videos! You're the best content creators out there
Delicious to see Rich get a taste of what it's like to watch someone critique a game from the perspective of bein' bad at it
You can see the exact moment Rich's hearth broke
Heart*
9:19 TBF, after giving Vanquish the tenth try in as many years, I did finally see the legless skittering robots
i really can feel the sadness in rich's eyes... this is torture... dont worry i loved the game too
I bought this as soon as it came out on PC because of Rich. It's so awesome. Thanks Rich
It kind of reminds me about a common Dark Souls criticism from fans of the series. The early game teaches you how to play defensively, and if you're a bad player (like me) you make much better progress by playing that way. And then experienced players say no, you should be moving and dodging and parrying because that's more effective - and more fun. But unless I spend a long time being frustrated, dying a lot and making almost no progress, I'm not going to learn to be good enough at those aspects to play the "fun" way.
Of course, these things are fixable - Bloodborne just mixed up the combat design to remove that play style, Doom encouraged aggressive play with the drops from executions - but if the game encourages you to play "wrong", then it's a problem with the game. Not as big of a problem as there not being a fun way to play at all (hello the majority of 3rd person cover-based shooters), but still not ideal.
I started Dark Souls building a clanking beeftank. It's not an accident that many new players end up that way. It's by far the most forgiving style -- able to to dish out some pretty respectable damage once it can single-wield the bigger swords, but also has high poise and block values. I contend that the game is still fun this way, but I'm more of a plodding defender type by inclination, so I actually enjoy shrugging off huge hits as much as I enjoy dodging them. At one point I was tanked so hard, people would invade me, go stabbity-stabby-stab, then just kind of step back and pause, and I could practically hear the other player saying, "He's not staggered......How the FUCK was he not staggered by that??"
Had to teach myself to play more aggressively, ended up with a medium-roll axe/spear guy I quite liked. Had fun with a relatively flimsy Sorcerer in DS3. Have yet to try a fully speedtanked ninja type character. Someday I'll go back.
Jack: Why is there chicken in my KFC?
this is exactly the same issue you guys had with Bayonetta. The game doesnt force you to play the "right way", so you end up just doing the same combo over and over again because you can get away with it and beat the game no problem.
This is a major design issue and really the only way to circumvent that is to set challenges for yourself and experiment.
its not a design issue, its company politic. they dont force people to play the game the rigth way, thats why so many people dislike their games. they care about the company brand and sales(they get payed for publishers fo their work). they make briliant games, for people with very special tastes.
Bayo and NieR sold realy badly, but have realy strong fan bases, because those people who like the style, realy realy love it.
i think its a design flaw. The game should always strive to give you the "real experience". I understand that they give depth to the people who want it, but a game should be built so the player realizes he needs to get good at the game to make progress, otherwise you are just mindlessly mashing buttons.
The people who love these games are the people who go out of the beaten path to get good at the game and discover its complexity. But the people who dont, are usually the ones who didnt care for the combat mechanics and felt they could beat the game by using the same combo over and over again.
This is why the souls series works. It has one difficulty. You dont get to choose how easy or hard the game is, it has one kind of experience and you either try to understand its mechanics to get the upper hand, or you give up like a little bitch.
Thats how game design should be.
Honestly? I completely understand what Jack is saying. I think some people here are being deliberately daft and not understand his point. I'm not saying he's totally right, just that I get his position. And also Rich used the same line of logic before and got shat on for it, so I'm wondering where the disconnect is...
If a game told me it was all about speed, and then I play it and the gameplay doesn't emphasize it enough OR is too easy playing slow, I'd say the game was flawed. DOOM 2016 works so well because the game never stops emphasizing that _you must move or you will die._ Jack played Vanquish not moving, and won. That doesn't seem like his fault completely.
TheGoldenCaulk except the game punshies you for playing it slow by being dull and boring if you want to try the combos you need to play it well
" TheGoldenCaulk except the game punshies you for playing it slow by being dull and boring if you want to try the combos you need to play it well "
You don't understand how the human mind works. People will generally fall back on using the most effective strats that takes the least effort. Even if it results in something being less fun. If it's more fun to do elaborate combos but it's also much harder to beat bosses/enemies with it over say spamming a 3 button combo over and over because it stunlocks the enemy then that's what most people will use.
It's entirely the game designers fault for designing the game like this. Vanquish is not even remotely perfectly designed. The idea that the game punishes you for using the cool moves on your suit is frankly dumb. Make it a seperate resource or put it on a cooldown, don't make it burn your defence.
Platinum makes solid games, not perfect ones.
If people make the choice to go the easy route, then that's squarely on them, not the game. Vanquish was designed to let players play the game however they want. They can keep it simple and stay back in cover, where it's safe, or go for broke and be stylish if they so choose to do so while learning the capabilities of the game's untapped depth. The game only punishes you for using these cool moves if you're using them ineffectively. Melee attacks, for example, can destroy enemies and even mini-bosses in one go at the cost of overheating your suit, so no shit you'll be punished if you decide to use it in a crowded area and just take out one enemy.
Vanquish follows the same kind of risk-reward philosophy that games like Devil May Cry and Bayonetta implement. In those games, you can simply choose to ignore all the cool stuff you can do and just button mash one combo and beat the game just fine while earning a decent/low score. The equivalent to this in Vanquish is staying back in cover and not bothering to explore what else you're capable of doing. And just like with DMC and Bayo, Vanquish is a game meant to be replayed so that you can get better and better, because the game can be (and IS) an exhilarating experience when you've mastered the game's concept and controls.
This mentality that people will fall back and use the most effective strategy (because that's "how the human mind works" lol) needs to go away. Even if a large majority of people play like this, that doesn't mean there isn't an audience out there that loves to be challenged with what a game throws at them.
Vanquish has a lot going for it yet it easily gets swept under the rug since so many people are accustomed to playing a typical 3rd person shooter, and Vanquish is anything BUT a typical 3rd person shooter.
th-cam.com/video/_UEnHCPfALc/w-d-xo.html
SetnaroX yeah it's just gears of war with the brightness cranked up and some rocket boots. You should relax. You can like it all you want but when the dominant strategy is super boring that IS on the designers
It's a safe strategy, not a dominant strategy. Every enemy in the game, especially the midsize mini-bosses and tanks, have weakpoints in their back side, which you can't shoot at if you stay in cover. Shooting these parts will destroy enemies in a matter of seconds as oppose to simply shooting the front end where it takes much longer to do, even if you aim for the head. To get to these backside, you have to make full use of your dodging and boosting skills, along with actually understand what each every weapon is capable of. It's way more than just "Gears of War with rocket boosting". Actually spend some time viewing what high skilled players are able to do, and you'll see it's more than just the silly wall bouncing nonsense that Gears of War has going for it.
I clapped! I clapped when i saw Rich Evans clapping!
I clapped when my sex therapist blew me.
A little
But not really
IT BROKE NEW GROUND
14:50 Rich should play MGR:R, Platinum covered their bases on prophetic predictions.
Senator Armstrong literally says "make America great again."
Like.
Fuck.
I mean, that's hardly a "weird" phrase. It's something almost every politician promises.
I can't even begin to wrap my head around using a keyboard to play complicated looking video games.
it’s definitely something to get used to, but when you do it is very nice
The editing on this one was especially hilarious, you guys kick ass as usual :D
Some people like Platinum games, some people hate them. This is a perfect video to showcase the two sides of it, and exactly how both sides look at their games and how they can't understand why the other loves/hates it so much.
Jack... wtf. This isn't like saying "oh you didn't play it on hard", you refused to use the most basic mechanics that the whole game design is built around. I also found it hard and frustrating at first, but like with any hard game I powered through until I got the hand of it, and then it was pure bliss.
I think it's unfair to say that he refused to use the mechanics. Y'know the quote "given the opportunity, players will optimize the fun out of a game"? As the rest of the quote goes, "one of the responsibilities of designers is to protect the player from themselves." Vanquish is a great game but it seems like Platinum did not succeed in that responsibility.
Rich said in the video that he did not think Jack's criticism was wrong. Let's be like Rich
20 minute review of Vanquish? What did I do to deserve this?
Thanks, rich and jack!
Finally Jack gets to shit all over something Rich loves.
I loved this when it came out, fast paced, fun gameplay, solid bosses and enemy types, definitely loved it
Rich, I know you have good taste in Platinum/Clover titles. Why haven't you mentioned GOD HAND? Now THAT'S a game that deserves a PC release.
crapcom's call. And you should know by now crapcom is the last company you should expect something good from.
@@SPTX. they are crapcom no longer.
@@nohomers100 no they still suck. we dont need a remake of every resident evil game
Wow. I finally find someone that loves this game as much as I did. This game is so under rated. Much fun to be had and the action is over the top which makes it a blast to play. Thanks for covering this guys! and yes Jack played it wrong!
I miss pre rec, these guys need to get back into videogame reviews and twitch streaming.
Jack likes to notice a lighter grey spot in a wall, hit it with a sword, and be rewarded. Rich's reward is to skillfully master a games controls and beat some ass. This is how PreRec works.
Out of context Rich Evans quote 2017:
"It's crack to me".
It's Shaq for me.
It’s Zaat to me
The conversation Rich is having with Jack is one I've had countless times with people who try Vanquish for the first time.
Im now gonna nickname Rich and Jack = Porter House Steak & Wonder-bread
Wonder bread is perfect for Jack: Doughy, white and gives you diabetes.
and just like a porterhouse steak, Rich is big, meaty, and leaves you feeling happy.
But Shaq would be a much better porterhouse.
Thank You very much. I DID enjoy that loop of Rich. Also, I think it's the pinnacle of irony that Rich dresses so poor. OH! Big fan of RLM and PR. You guys are great, and Rich is one of my favorite internet presences.
Rich is right . I bought the game when it came out and I couldn't grasp the mechanics properly and still beat the game. Years later I jumped back in and really dove into how to rocket boot and use the slow mo correctly and it was a different game. One of my favorite games to just jump in and play from time to time. Vanquish and the EDF games are my go too fun games
♪ ...to save our mother earth from any alien attack! ♫
1. rich is always right.
2. Jack is a casual gamer, he doesnt has the time or the skills to learn a complex game. its not his fault, he has a wife, children, a social life, etc. rich on the other hand had 20 years to learn how to play video games.
@@nox5555 1. tums festival
2. i would hardly call a game complex when it can be beat by simple cover shooting mechanics. this is one of those cases where a dev put a bunch of cool, fancy shit in their game, but failed to give you a compelling reason to do any of the fancy shit other than for the sake of doing it and a completely arbitrary score at the end of each level.
I had the same problem as Jack when I tried this game years ago. I didn't play it "right".
The game didn't teach me how to get the most out of the core mechanics.
I thought it was pretty bland, but when I watched my friend play it was a different game.
Rich should share some of his gameplay to show us how truly amazing Vanquish can be.
You can give Jack as much shit as you want, but he's not wrong about a lot of these things. The lack of enemy and visual variety is not a minor gripe. .
i am two weeks away from dying horribly you're supposed to be going so fast you can't see them… But, yeah, it is a legitimate gripe.
yes he had some valid points. tho the visual variaty I don't quite get. it's a space station, and they did variaty pretty well being tied to essentially one place.
game is like 5 hours long
Vanquish is fucking badass
did THEY (I've never seen them use more than the slideslomo) actually know that the slomo actiavates in pretty much every animation possible? pretty much every time you're airborne, you can slow down time.
side roll, jump from a cover, jump over the cover, after a rocketkick etc.
edit: small tip: rocketkick a wall, free backflip slomo
Vanquish's HUD features a score counter by default and there's an obligatory score brief after each mission, that also puts a time counter that awards you bonus points right in your face, it's almost like the game is trying to tell you something about what's the intended way to play.
And the other thing is, you can frequently dodge massive amounts of fire with your basic roll even if it doesn't give you invulnerability frames. So the trade-off for being allowed to constantly be on the offensive and using bullet time powers all the time is having to do similarly impressive dodging while it cools off and trying to never go into overheat since it's deadly on open ground. As for how unfamiliar it might be to new time players...if you've played Dark Souls, you've probably rolled past projectile attacks, now imagine the skeleton archers use chainguns instead of crossbows and you're not allowed to dodge towards fire, but otherwise, same basic deal. :)
6 minutes in and Jack's breaking my heart. Yes, of course if you rocket into the middle of an arena surrounded by enemies you're gonna get owned. The whole point is to constantly keep pushing the envelope until you become a badass warrior. You're not gonna master all the mechanics on the first few stages. Even after beating it a few times I finished my first hard mode run with an average of 10 deaths an hour. That's how it's supposed to be.
Also, you gotta constantly reference the map so you know where the enemies shooting from.
From this point forward rich can never get upset when fans tell him he's playing a game wrong.
Internet classic show Game Station 2.0 covered this game first.
edit: at least they acknowledged it.
Haha! JACK! YOU PLAYED THE GAME WRONG! *Rich brakes a suburb of glass houses*
*breaks
the way Jack describes his gripes about Vanquish is like someone playing Bayonetta without using witch time and the only combo they use is punch 5× / kick 5×
But he did say that he did try the movement mechanics they just didn't work for him.
No he finished the game just fine. Cover just made the game much easier for him. It's hard to not fault the game for that.
666or999 Actually it is, considering there are numerous stylish gameplay videos for vanquish, showing how the game was meant to be explored. He sucks at vanquish and doesnt know the how i frames or any of that work.
Because the first thing anyone does when they pick up a new game is watch hours of youtube videos about it. Sure.
Yet he still beat perfectly fine without any of their sparkling new mechanics.
When you are designing a game around a particular mechanic, it's a pretty good idea to actually encourage players to use that mechanic. Seemingly this game doesn't do that well at all.
Let's do a kickstarter to buy Rich Evans some new shoes and pants.
It's great, they're both completely right.
There's a lot of bad design choices that bring down all of the cool stuff.
What i'd do is take away the cover and the regenerating health, turn melee attacks into glory kills and make them regenerate health and meter. Also, rocket boosting should drain either no meter at all or very little.
Every clip is of him using the assault rifle, there is so much variety in weapons.
Binary Domain was pretty cool too.
Vanquish was re-released on the PS4, somewhere Rich Evans is smiling
Id be curious as to what rich thinks about warframe.
I actually had the same problem as Jack playing it and I have a simple idea to promote movement. Enemies that need to be flanked to be killed, and a general bonus to damage on a flanked enemies.
this is the dragon's dogma review all over again. At least this time Rich isn't taking part in Jack's unbelievable wrongness
You know Jack played the game wrong when his most upgraded weapon (in this sliding-with-your-rocket-boots-fast-paced shooter) is the sniper rifle.
I've been watching Game Station 2.0 lately. Has RLM been watching me?
The way Jack played the game is how I played the game, so I understand where he's coming from. It's like how I couldn't understand Monster Hunter as well. It's not until I saw what amazing things that could be done in these games that I really got into it. Vanquish really didn't tell you the amazing melee system it had going on for it and the cigarette thing was a mystery to me until I looked it up online. For some reason, it didn't even click with me the symbol on the HUD with the cylindrical shape was a cigarette counter.
I think a bit of hand holding at the beginning would have helped people understand more of the mechanics.-
Why hasn't Rich played Metal Gear Rising Revengeance yet? It's basically Vanquish with a sword.
It's nothing like Vanquish.
+Red Sparrow
No.
Puke Rat If by nothing you mean quite similar in parts then yeah it's nothing like vanquish
Can you force slow-mo? (Real Question: Haven't played Revengeance
Revengeance is amazing. Much better than vanquish.
What really stood out to me in this video is that, at least from what I saw in this video, they did not share their experiences or play together before this.
Jack tried it on his own, didn't have much success with the abilities so he just didn't use them. He settled in this stance and Rich wasn't there to try to explain how and where to best use them.
I mean- I haven't played the game, but that's the impression I get.
Shouldn't it be like that? Rich mentoring you isn't a part of the game.
If I'm just doing something fundamentally wrong in a game, I'd love for a friend to let me know.
Here, I think Jack stumbled upon one of the lesser discussed issues with games as an interactive medium, and that is the inherent conflict between competitive drive and game/level design. By attempting to make a cover-based shooter game that wasn't kind of lame, Platinum discovered why taking cover in a firefight is a thing. Because running around like an idiot is a great way to get yourself killed.
I think the reason Vanquish is more of a cult classic than beloved by all is because the only real incentive to play the game as it was meant to be played is to be stylish and cool. There isn't enough mechanical or aesthetic reward to sliding around and doing cool shit. It's actually a bad strategy, even if it's more fun. I'm reminded of Max Payne 3, in which they kept all the mechanics of the previous series, but enemies started taking cover. So you'd do a slow moton dive looking to shoot a bunch of baddies, and they're all freaking hiding. So you'd land on the floor like an idiot soaking up bullets.
Much is made about how the game emphasizes "movement," but it actually doesn't. Your character is just _fast_, that's way, way different than a game that emphasizes movement. You have all the exact same movement options in GoW or any of its imitators, you're just not nearly as fast. If anything, the rocket boots emphasize how important it is to _not_ move, or rather, that when you do, you better get out of the way pretty damn quickly.
And the other primary mechanic the game has, the slow motion, ironically is there specifically because moving that fast is crippling because you can no longer aim or dodge properly at that speed because you can't process what's happening. I imagine they had to introduce this mechanic pretty early on without planning for it, when they realized it was impossible to slide around and shoot things without it, particularly with a controller.
With a bit of polish, I think Vanquish could actually be amazing. But as it stands now, you sort of have to cooperate with it and just ignore the fact that all of the fun stuff in the game is a really dumb idea tactically and competitively. And that can be irritating if you like to play games like they're exploitative systems rather than just stylish funtime.
Fans of the game mistake this for "not being good at the game" but it's actually very clearly the other way around. The game's mechanics don't mesh well with what a successful strategy is in a third person shooter. And they aren't rewarding enough aesthetically to incentivize the player to mess around with them for any extrinsic reason.
I'd contrast it with something like the Souls series, which also has similar overpowered strategies (long range magic, poison, co-op, etc.) that exist primarily to sort of ease the game's difficulty. But fighting enemies at close range by yourself is very tense, very fun, and _equally_ rewarding. So you're incentivized to get better at it, and it's where the game really shines.
In Vanquish, your primary tools are so ineffective, it doesn't really make sense to play the game that way at any point.
So your mileage in this game depends enormously on how intrsinsically fun you find it to slide around in slo-mo shooting stuff. And you have to like that _more_ than you like playing the game well, and for a _long_ time, because there isn't much else in the game.
I'd recommend Vanquish to anyone, just because it's so unique and cool. And its over-the-top story and atmosphere are the best. But it's far from a masterpiece. As a game, it has a lot of flaws, which is why its design never really caught on.
It needs more emphasis on verticality, missiles or other dodgeable projectiles rather than undodgeable hitscan style bullets, health/energy gained either in the environment or from killing enemies (fuck regenerating anything, it's a fundamental failure in design unless your goal is to make the player wait), better enemy variety, guns that don't emphasize aiming so much (again, it's why you need slomo, you can't hit anything precisely while moving around), and arenas much more cluttered with nooks and crannies to weave in and out of. A better color pallette and better lighting would help a hell of a lot too, the game is far too grey most of the time.
I can support Jack on his overhype theory, where Rich built expectations to high. It happens pretty commonly with movies I think. He might have mentioned it in (at least) a dozen episodes, but even off camera I'm sure it came up quite often.
And now Rich understands why a lot of Bloodlines people were really fucking upset at him for just dismissing the game out right.
no, he probably wont
It finally happened. The last Pre Rec episode.
10:42 So besides Jacks magnificent crossed legs, something else kind of caught my eye. They have 18 copies of "Babe" and about 42 copies of something ending with "ukie". I wonder what the hell that "ukie" film is?
Here you go my friend, enjoy
g.co/kgs/dcBnph
Michel Foucault and Slavoj Žižek discuss the objectification present in 3rd Person shooters, circa 2017
I agree with Rich entirely, Vanquish is prolly one of my top games of all time.
Jack plays the game like an old man. Explains everything. ;)
Jack basically bought a Ferrari and thought it'd be nice to drive it around at 45mph since going faster would get you a ticket.
PS> Driving a High Performance car around at city speeds actually does damage to said engine.
Yes Jack, You played it wrong.
You didn't play the game, you simply accomplished beating the boss.
Now I Rich Evans knows how I felt when I tried to watch him play Final Fantasy 7 and all he did was mash X
Rich is 100% correct here. Don't listen to Jack people. 'Vanquish', like Rich said, is one of the greatest games ever made. Praying this remaster comes out on PS4 soon...
"ChkchkchkchkChkchkchkchkChkchkchkchkChkchkchkchkChkchkchkchkChkchkchkchkChkchkchkchkChkchkchkchkChkchkc" more entertaining than any of the actual game footage.
Gotta side with Rich on this one. Vanquish is played for the combat mechanics. Willfully playing the game in the slowest, most boring way possible and then complaining about enemy variety and level design is kind of missing the point. Yeah, those things could have been improved but when you're zipping around and pulling off badass stuff most other games have to go to cutscenes for, who cares?
Oreoleo ooo it sounds like jack is conditioned to play it like a typical fps nowadays. I haven't played it but I know id probably feel similar to him, but I can also see exactly why he played it like that. I'm not one to like gimmicky things like what makes this apparently special, it looks cool as fuck, but Jack has always seemed as more of the casual gamer id probably call myself too.
like honestly his feelings on this sound something like how I feel about the Lost Planet games. everyone I know talks so highly of them, but it must be the way I play them because I find them borderline unplayable.
Jack has a solid point though. If they just took the cover out of the game it would be more fun, because it teaches you this is the smartest way to play. Some players like running and gunning, and others like like playing optimally.
But Vanquish is TIMED, your run and gun IS optimal, aggressive play scores higher.
So you can play it slow, but then you're never really going to "win." Since the purpose is to do it fast.
No one cares THAT you can solve a Rubix cube, its how fast and what impairments can you have and still succeed.
Jack just wants the puzzle finished, even if it takes 3 days.
+Oreoleo ooo
You mean like Rich did with Uncharted 4.
That first boss is a freakin' Decepticon!! It's awesome.
Rich seriously. I want you. Hit me up.
Hmm. Nope. I'm just English. Haha!
Did he look at you afterwards though?
For like a second, until he shoved me against a wall then spit on my shoes. Overall, I would recommend 10/10.
Social Piranha this wouldn't be a problem with him.
With what, kids?
The optimal way to play the game should also be the most fun. If hiding behind cover was better for Jack than using the fun movement mechanics, then you've got game design problems.
Did Jack play the unpatched version where you took 2x damage at high framerates? Because if he did it explains a lot.
I really with this channel was still active
To be fair, Jack was playing the game wrong.
to be fair, the game sucks at actively encouraging playing it the "right way" other than to look cool and an arbitrary score that means nothing
A) Thank you Rich for recommending Vanquish, it's fucking awesome just like you said
B) Rich is right, the robots skittle on the floor if you shoot their legs off, it's pretty cool!
C) Love Jack, but he really did play the game wrong... Don't like that term, but seriously ... I spent 90% of the the game out of cover, i had a 7 percent at the end :D
The irony of Rich bringing out the "You played it wrong" argument! Great review though. You do compare it to Doom with it being fast-paced,but Doom had better enemy and weapon variety (half the guns in Vanquish are gimmick weapons). Also Vanquish repeats boss fights way too much. Am fighting a boss a second time,but when you do it a third time,it just comes off as extremely lazy. Also if they didn't want you to take cover,why have a regen health system,like the ones used in cover shooters?
Watching footage of vanquish reminds me of playing Fall and War for Cybertron. I love those...
I usually side with Rich's opinion about all the games they review but I got give to Jack this time. The game really gives you no incentive to go out of cover, especially when almost all weapons have huge range.
I was reminded of vanquish when playing RE6 with it's dynamic TPS dodging mechanics.
...And Jack does play some games "wrong". C'mon! 😏
I play Vanquish with the Sniper Rifle; arguably the damn slowest weapon in the game. But the fact it lets me jet across the ground, score two headshots, hit a barrier and fling into the air, then hit three more headshots, is what makes the game such a joy. Jack doesn't seem to understand a crucial factor of Platinum Games; your first playthrough is the tutorial. In that time your going to have to take what you THINK you know, and shove it into a corner. Let the game show you the basics, then come back and go for the A-game.
I agree with jack on this one, if the game doesn't force you to have fun, who's to say the game is that fun to begin with?
If we have learned anything if that WHINNING WORKS!
It's another Jack is a pleb episode。
Because he holds different opinions ?
Wotan It's because he's a pleb.
he kinda sucks
A plebisode!
Using rocket boots to go from cover to cover.
Yeah...that's what they're for jack.
I personally didn't think Vanquish was anything special, controls didn't feel tight enough for me, level design was bit messy, art design mostly derivative with nothing really standing out and the story and dialogue was complete insta-skippable shit. I think most people at the time thought it was just an ok game.
So whenever Rich mentioned this was his favorite game, I wrote it off as a personal quirk, a guilty pleasure, a game that just felt right to him. Which is fine, I've got one of those too. I absolutely fucking love Far Cry 2, even though I realise the game has a lot of shortcomings and faults.
Of course I scroll down the comments now and it seems like EVERYBODY loves this game.
I get the feeling that Jack should've played it on hard. Though when I played it on normal and hid behind cover I couldn't beat the first level...
You should play Warframe. It's basically vanquish the mmo
I think the problem was Jack and Rich needed to play this in the same room.
Honestly while i share the same opinion as Rich i have to take Jack's side with the problems. Having a mechanic that incentivizes style and quick gameplay like pickups that drop when youre boosting. While i love the game i had to stick to cover more than i wouldve liked due to how hp and overheat worked
Jack is so patient. At 6:22 when it's obvious Rich is going on a long winded metaphor about wasting a good thing, Jack obviously knows exactly that i's a story just meant to demean his opinion. Yet he just sits there and listens patiently for 40 fucking seconds.
Stop me if I'm wrong, everyone... but I'm beginning to feel deep inside that Jack's not that great at video games that aren't retro-style platformers/arcade-ish games/Binding of Isaac.
Don't be mad if you're reading this, Jack. I still love you! 👍✌️
lostintechnicolor he's definitely a much more casual player than rich.
Ryan Meaker Sometimes, not always, but SOMETIMES... that's an understatement!
No, you're absolutely right. Jack is unable to grasp complex controls in games. Take the Arkham series: The gameplay is very smooth and has controls that are easy to learn, yet Jack constantly struggled through those games. He doesn't take time to learn combos or mechanics in most games, since he is accustomed to games where there are only basic controls to master (Binding of Isaac). After failing to do these things, we then get to hear him complain about how the game wasn't made right and it was too difficult to learn.
LET ME STOP YOU RIGHT THERE! Wait, that doesn't work with online comments at all! damn you for getting my hopes up!
No but seriously, I think the fact that Jack struggles with complex game mechanics actually adds a lot to the balance of their reviews. You can always identify with either Rich or Jack depending on what kind of gamer you are, and you feel less stupid if you don't like games like Vanquish if you fail at them constantly. Not that _I_ would fail at these games, I'm just... asking for a... friend
>that feel when I can get into artsy fartsy 2deep4u indie games and crank out some fucking God Hand back to back.
Loved it ever since Rich introduced me to it in that Game Station episode. Such a wonderful game.
Jack's criticism is valid.
No even close. Do you eat pizza crust First? Do you get in your car from the passenger side and cross over the center console to get in the driver seat? Both are options you can take, both go against the design of said item. You can't fault a product for not being able to do what it wasn't designed to do.
Jack CHOSE to play the game in a way the would LOWER HIS END GAME SCORE and decided he cared more about simply completing the game.
He bought the wrong game for that. Its a freeform arcade shooter that takes you till the end where you fight the boos the end. Vanquish Cover Style is played by those who simply want to say they played and beat the game.
Because any person who did the opposite got a better score and are labeled better and more competent.
From there Jack can tell us about the Mechanics make the game hard to complete....
The Driftersoul It's one of my favourite games but he is right. The level design isn't always so suited to the high speed movement and the restriction of the energy bar makes it safer to stay in cover. The game isn't perfect. If it had destructible cover (as Rich suggests) and Doom's health system it would be a better game.
I think Destructibles would indeed have helped, but I just can't personally buy Jacks argument. From what he was saying, to me it sounded like he tried to actually play and it was too difficult so he relegated himself to playing on Automatic Easy Mode and complained it was too easy. But didn't take the time to understand the mechanics of the game.
Now I'm not saying he HAS too, they game may not be for him in that case.
Same way I don't play Souls games because it seems repetitive and grindy to me. However Jack loves and I wouldn't fault him for that because the games play-style was not for me. And I wouldn't call the game bad for that very reason.
I would even argue that Jack would call the game worse because of the ease of Death still in play as Jack stated that merely goes higher once Jack cant hold behindcover.
Unlike Nathan Drake, this guy isn't a bullet sponge + regenerating health. You get popped quick.
it's perfectly valid to complain that a game is bad at feedback and player teaching, and Vanquish is awful at both of those. Even the scoring, the most direct possible method of telling a player how well they did, is presented as a completely contextless set of arbitrary numbers. Someone new to the game has no basis for understanding what a good score in the game even is in the first place, much less what they're being scored on.
It's the same fundamental reasons that Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde on the NES is widely held as one of the worst games ever made (not that Vanquish is as bad as that game, but I think you get what I mean).
Seriously, I love Vanquish, but people like Jack are 100% right in criticizing it.
The right way to play a game is the most optimal way. If using only cover is the most optimal, then sliding around like a moron is the wrong way to play the game.
Rich Evans; "The way you wake up the robots¡"
Me: "Nobody remembers
Metal Arms (T__T)"
this is an insanely complex game in terms of mechanics, and the game doesnt make a good job showing you how to do all those cool moves
Awareness isn't Jack's strong suit. So, it makes sense that he didn't really enjoy it. Which is fine.