This episode breaks my heart. The past few years I’ve struggled with the polarized politics. I’ve struggled to understand how those I love, family and church members, could claim to believe in Christ’s teachings yet embrace blatantly cruel prejudice/supremest misogynistic political leaders. I struggled to understand how these conflicting ideologies could exist side by side? How could so many hateful/hurtful policies be supported while testifying of Christ? Now it’s making sense. I was a late teen when Benson was the PSR. I wasn’t paying attention to what was being preached from the pulpit, but now I understand that those around me were. No one questioned what was being said and it took deep roots. No wonder the red maga hats were embraced. The seeds were planted as of straight from god. We were too young to question it then and now it feels familiar. My heart is broken.
I haven’t watched the video yet but it was so surreal for me to see this video come up. I’m a Benson. Ezra T. Benson was my paternal grandpa’s first cousin. My great-grandfather was also named Ezra Taft Benson, because the first male child in each generation had the name. It started with my 3rd great-grandfather, Ezra Taft Benson, the early convert, apostle, and pioneer who had 8 wives (one of whom he “adopted” from his buddy Brigham Young after he died) and numerous Paiute slaves. Thankfully, my grandparents stopped being part of the Mormon church in the 1960s and ended the tradition of naming their children Ezra Taft. Now hardly any of the Bensons (in my corner of the family tree, anyway) are Mormon. I’ve been learning more about my family history over the years and as much as it makes me uncomfortable I feel it is important to acknowledge the real pain and suffering that Mormonism has wrought upon generations. Thank you for this video!
Reed Benson used to attend our student ward at BYU for some reason, many, many years ago. He would sit in the audience with all of his beautiful children. I would usually sit behind him and stare at the back of his head.
My brother tried the "product of their time" line with me. My response was, "Is God so impotent that He cannot give correction to His anointed servants?"
Carol Lynn is my dear friend (as she is to so many). When I shared with her my departure from the church, she sent me the poem "Pioneers". A treasure, to be sure. I count my Mormon heritage as a valuable part of my journey. I am my own pioneer.
Many, many trekked west, not knowing where they'd eventually settle, call home... But Mormon pioneers knew they were trying be out of the reach of the U.S. Govt and restrictions of the law that prohibit marriage w/more than one. Many of the founders of the U.S. were Christian, follow the Bible &think polygamy is wrong... Mormons, were fleeing TOWARD polygamy, and away from monogamous marriage... Good4U 4making the break...
this whole show has me flooded with thoughts! I graduated high school in 1987 so Benson was a big part of my teen and young adult, young parenting years. I remember my dad acting weird when I would talk about Benson I remember one particular time he acted almost disgusted and it was when my friends and I got to go see Benson in person at a special seminary event because we read the whole Book of Mormon. Growing up in Southern California that was a BIG deal!! The prophet was coming to see us!! I came back talking about the US constitution hanging by a thread, etc. My dad isn’t alive anymore. What I wouldn’t give to ask him about that time. I assume he kept quiet because he didn’t want to injure my testimony of the prophet since we were all-in in our beliefs and this. I so wish I could ask. My mum died in April so I can’t ask her either.
My father moved us to Utah in 1972 and immediately joined the John Birtch society, cried when Nixon resigned and supported Gov. Wallace for President. Traumatic years and fear feeds fanaticism.
I remember asking my mother why African Americans were not allowed to join the church until 1978, and her response was, "Well, the general authorities knew black people were being persecuted enough already, and making them members would only make things worse." I nodded, but inside my 13 year old mind, I was calling bull s***.
May I ask a question ? I hear references to " a shelf " ( broken , having stuff put in or taken out ect ) , can you explain what they mean ? It seems to have something to do with people faith but is seem to miss the meaning
I served in the US Army in southeastern Germany during the Cold War. It was intense. Fear was high. We did so many alerts and drills because we had to be ready to move fast. We were preparing for the red horde to come barreling across the Fulda Gap and our area would just be a speed bump on their way. Nothing we have going on now compares to the level of fear and tension looming over us during the cold war. We were always concerned about nuclear war. Thank you for this topic, John Larsen. Hi John D and Carah. I am always thrilled to see the three of you together!
I truly believe that this is one of your most important episodes to date. The backstory of Benson and his continuing influence is so revealing and enlightening. Thank you so much for your efforts and time.
John L. You are a pearl of reasonable price! I never fail to be impressed by your presentations and I thank you, all 3 of you, for the hard work you do to bring these to my home. I was born in '71 and like many families, we needed 2 incomes. It is to my great shame that I once told my mother if she had enough faith to quit her job, God would bless my Dad with a better job. Isn't that a horrible thing to say? What I didn't understand until I was older is that the prophet was saying, "Don't accept government handouts," but also saying, "Mothers should not work outside the home," and you HAVE to be a mother because birth control is evil and your only purpose is to have kids and support your priesthood holder. When were these women supposed to catch a break?
Agreed. It was like if you’re not in the minority percentage of families who could have a stay-at-home mom AND the dad earn enough to support the entire family decently, then something was wrong with you……or you were not worthy. The tremendous and even impossible pressures put on LDS families (esp. women), is one of the big turn-offs to joining. No wonder Utah has a high suicide rate. Sad.
John, John and Carah you are all three ROCK STARS in my book. ⭐️⭐️⭐️ Thank you for this excellent episode! When ET was made prophet, seer and revelator my mother-in-law was openly not happy about it. I knew nothing of his history and was surprised at her expressed disappointment. And now I understand why she felt that way. Dangerous dude. Well … part of a dangerous church. I have never understood why so many LDS people are Trumpers. And now I understand the influence the church has had on them and their political beliefs. You always educate and illuminate. Love you all! ✨✨✨
This was very enlightening, as I'm not LDS but have had many friends in the church, and this helps me connect the dots with their overall socio-political/cultural views and behaviors. Wow. Thank you! And i LOVED LOVED LOVED your impassioned plea for calling out the lies, for standing against abuse, for repentance in ANY "church"!
At one point I was in an exMormon support group online with Steve Benson, grandson to Ezra. He and his wife left together largely due to Ezra and things Steve saw around his Presidency. He saw his grandfather sick and dementia laden yet ‘prophecies continued to come out. Steve and his wife wrote extensively about why they left. It was interesting and also helpful to me as I had recently left.
Benson became president of the Mormon corporation when I was on my mission. I was such a new convert that I was learning new things about the church all the time on my mission. Things that were likely common knowledge amount lifelong or legacy Mormons. More and more, I had the feeling that I should have never been on a mission. Little by little, the validity of Benson, and the other top church leaders, and the church became more and more suspect. Plus the scammy behavior I saw among *some* church members. And, because of so many other things - including the racist stuff, I was out of the church by the time Benson died. Had the Internet been around back then, I would have easily done research and never joined. Thank you for helping to reveal the fraud, lies, deception, scam, grifting, spiritual brutality, toxic patriarchy, sexism, racism, homophobia, outlandish claims, troubling 1800s church history, the scammer Joseph Smith, and the pedophilia and ephebophelia among early church leaders with their polygamist marriages... including the sex/human trafficking of girls and young ladies from Europe into the polygamist marriages in American Mormonism of the 1800s. The Book of Mormon should always be given with the church study guide: The CES Letter, and the video classes: RFM, Mormon Stories Podcast, Mormonish, and Zelph on the Shelf.
One issue with the Carolyn Pearson book. She talked about "slave boys". The tendency in Western thinking is that slavery is based on race. It's actually an American socialization. People are born and made into slaves not by choice or birthright. To imply that it was chosen in the pre-existence is horribly offensive just like the doctrine about the fence sitters being cursed with dark skin. After all who would ever choose slavery?
Yes, that slavery and poverty are “chosen” makes the oppressor not responsible but rather a part of gods plan, but I guess that’s the problem with believing in god.
My problem is they are absolutely sure those with black skin are cursed because of what they did or did not do in the premortal life but nobody can say exavtly what? Really? And if blacks were 'fence sitters' why didn't God just cast them off with Satan? Is God so cruel that they should not only be punished in the after life but this life as well. Seems like it would have been better if they chose the side of the devil.
@healingasthmaacasestudy9851 As an African American who believes in God I disagree. I believe in liberation Theology. God came to set the captives free.
John D, yes! Ezra Taft Benson started the shame cycle for working mothers. It continued in the church for many years. I remember this so vividly. This shame and the anger I felt is what first caused me to doubt and eventually leave the church.
I'm 61. An exmo. I think ETB was a right-wing punk hell bent on marginalizing and excluding sections of society. I'm sorry you all had to suffer the shaming and goodness knows what else because of ETB and church leaders (*even today 2023), whom belong to a collective uncaring religion.
I haven't listened yet but I'm BEYOND THRILLED to see this was released today. I came here specifically to check if Larsen would be on soon. #teamjohnlarsen
Oh heck. As I’m listening, I realize this is the guy that shaped my understanding of government, as I read his book, ‘The Proper Role of Government’ as a teen and took it as Gods word, since it was written by a prophet. Yet another thing to unpack and rethink.
John Larsen, you are one nuanced ho. I must admit, my (very wrong) first impression was that you were just an angry ex Mormon. But that's only a small part of the picture. Intelligence, empathy, humility... Those are a few words that start to round out the picture. Thanks for continuing to be part of the exmo landscape. You, John, and Carah are three mighty pillars of support in this space.
I'm really grateful for this episode. I was raised by a JBS paid leader. So glad the two Johns have made this alliance. I've listened to both of you for many years.
I really like him but we could only have a conversation about vehicles. Anything about religion or politics ended up sad. He was just deceived. The John birch society didn’t pay very many people.
Dear Mormon stories and John Larsen! I come from Poland and anyone from that part of the world (ex Soviet sphere of influence) would agree that commusism is as close to hell as it gets. We have a first hand experience. I get it that maybe John explores the theoretic concept of communism as positive, but in some books slave owners were portrayed as protector and providers, no? Communism or socialism is not liberal democracies of the scandinavian countries, it is what Stalin and Lenin did to us. My grandgrandparents were forcefully displaced to Siberia, Polish society was being destroyed. Can we please not romantisize it? It is not just a system with free healthcare, like conservatists say. It was purely evil and please do not gaslight us:-)
Please do an episode on disagreements among church leadership. Interesting to know how that is been handled in an organization that doesn’t remove anything after has been stated publicly.
It interests me how unabashedly past church authorities did not water down their words. Whereas, it seems that we get little more than watered down pablum from authorities today. Today's authorities are so much about smoke and mirrors and vagaries. Even to the point of attempting to disavow words of past prophets. In the old days you knew exactly where these guys stood. If the brethren spoke as forthrightly today, they would bleed out membership so fast their heads would spin, and they know it.
John, I loved your rant about Mormons buying into conspiracies. And I think Benson contributed greatly to the problem. However, part of it is hardwired into a people who have learned not to think critically but to accept things on faith and conflate feelings with facts. Granted, that alone won't make you fall for ridiculous conspiracies. However, it will make your much less able to spot them. And here's the eye-opening part: the conspiracies you mentioned aren't really any more ridiculous than the religion Mormons have already sold their entire minds and souls to. Mormons are quite primed to believe ridiculous conspiracies just by already believing in a ridiculous religion. I say that not in condemnation of Mormons as a people (I spent half my life as one) but in condemnation of the organization that at every level, grooms its members to believe dangerous nonsense. Benson was a symptom of this not the cause. As you said yourself, "those who can make you believe absurdities, can make you commit atrocities". And even if they're not making you commit them, they're grooming you to not be able to identify that you're committing them.
Learning to judge myself outside of waiting for a man to tell me I am worth has been the biggest struggle. But I am sure it will be a worthwhile journey in the end.
1:52:54 I don’t want to ding the church for changing in a positive way when positive change is what I ask of them, but we also have to make a point that part of making these changes properly involves properly addressing and making statements of correction about the beliefs and rules, and the leaders haven’t done and still aren’t doing that. You are absolutely right that the church members have to be careful when they say that god inspired the US constitution because slavery existed.
I am not Mormon but did attend the church as a child with my moms family. She had no idea my dads family were pioneers snd early members. That poem deeply resonated with me as i have struggled how to process the church's history which is inextricably entwined with my family history.
I joined the Church in 1979, one year after moving to Sandy. Serving in Primary was my first calling. I remember well her books which were all beautifully written. I had bought many and they became a special part of my library. Sadly, I later lost them in a flood. (No, not The Flood!!) I thought her books were out of print. I’m thrilled to see her alive and well. I’m just barely into my faith crisis, but I may well reorder some of my favorites books she authored. I would love to read specifically to some of my greatgrands who are not members. John Larson, what a moving apology. You all are class acts and have no idea how important you are in my current life status. Much love and respect to you of you!! XOXO
The stories on the Lamanites and Nephites, and the “curse” of dark skin, are why I first really started questioning the LDS church. It was so skimmed over in my ward and family, and I refused to let it go.
Wow, did I just taste home storage wheat? I am so amazed at the power of this Church. Until I started listening to so many hours now of these podcasts I was missing a huge part of American history interpretation. I still am in my non religious bubble as often as I can exist there. But damn, just calling it "The Church" says it. Love ya'll. How can the Church repent ? What would be left?
I think you’re absolutely correct about the church apologizing. Been saying this for years. If the church were to acknowledge any (institutional) incorrectness it would completely undermine it’s own claims to any authority or credibility whatsoever. The church painted itself into this moral and ethical corner long ago, in the way it constructed it’s claims to these things in the first place; claiming direct authority from God via ongoing revelation, and that it’s doctrines and sources are the most true, the most pure, the highest on earth…leaves the church nowhere to go in terms of admitting any fallibility at all. Any admission/apology brings the whole structure down. The one thing I could see the church doing to bridge this reality gap (and it will require a change in core leadership, so…time) is if they are able to reframe the entire system as a man made one. It would need to be framed conceptually in a way that allows the die-hard members to manage the mental contortions of shifting from “the church is god-made and led and therefore cannot make mistakes and never changes it’s eternal aspects” to “ the church is inspired by god and makes mistakes along the way but is still true because it is self-correcting”. I don’t know how that could be done, but I wouldn’t be surprised if there’s some PR genius out there who might be coming up through the ranks right now, that would have the insight and silver tongue to manage it. Possibly. It’s happened before both in the church and out; ideas that land just right and overcome reason just enough to shift a mass of people so they forget that they ever thought differently.
Ezra Taft Benson was the one who advised the youth of the church to avoid watching R rated movies. That's when members of the church adopted the no R rated movies stance, even though it was never an official commandment. You guys should do an episode focusing on the church's attitude towards R rated films. I think it would be interesting because there are some members who don't care about watching R rated films, and then there are some who are completely strict and will refuse to watch them.
This "Gadean robbers" business is silly, everyone knows Cain went on to be an ancestor of Grendel, the monster in Beowulf!! Emjoying learning all this stuff, thanks for making so much publicly available!!
Had a slight heart attack when he mentioned it was July 24th (Pioneer Day) as today is 7/27 when the video was uploaded. I thought I had somehow lost 3 days 😂
Benson as prophet is giving me current Diane Feinstein vibes (i.e. elder abuse and old people unwilling to give up their power when they are obviously mentally gone).
The Mormon obsession with authority. Capitalists have interests and have the right to pursue them (and also have a tendency to exploit their workers as much as they can get away with). Workers also have interests and have the right to pursue them. Workers have the right to try and minimize their exploitation. The capitalists are always engaging in class warfare in pursuit of their interests, so the workers should always fight too.
Great episode and summary of E.T.B. I believe the reason he focuses on the US Merchant Marine was that they were important to national defense (and had been crucial in the world wars) but also had strong trade unions. Benson was asked to run as vice president with George "Segregation Forever" Wallace in 1968 on a third-party ticket. McKay refused permission. Wallace's eventual running mate was Air Force General Curtis LeMay, and accepting that position pretty much destroyed his public reputation and legacy. It's fascinating to me that the church seriously wanted to be an international religion when its leadership held such USA-centric beliefs. Anyone who's interested: Get "Watchman on the Tower" by Matthew Harris!!
We have to share with non members and younger members that Celestial eugenics was fully taught as truthful gospel. We are all told that we all are born with one spiritual gift. We were told that the status, family, country and physical handicaps or gifts were due to how valiant and righteous and intelligence we were in the pre-existing life. Aye, there's the rub.
I remember all that, and it caused a lot of shame in my life because I didn’t come from an ideal background. How different my life could have been if people like Benson hadn’t crushed my spirit when I was young.
I’m also related to ETB, and when I was about 8 years old (1987ish) we went to a family reunion in Utah where he made a brief special appearance (in his wheelchair if I remember right) and we all got to shake hands with him. We also got to leave our personal copies of The Book of Mormon. He signed them and they were sent back to us in the mail a couple months later. I still have mine! Not proud to be related to this guy just to be clear 😆
I was born 1960 and grew up with a racist stepfather that was attracted to the church because of the fundamentalist dogma. He was converted out west while stationed with the us Air Force and took this dogma home to NC and slipped into the pews of mainstream LDS with my mother and her 2 very young daughters. The civil rights era caused controversy and conversations with in the priesthood that my racist came home angry about. Those conversations and concerns came to fruition in 1978 when the church opened the priesthood to black males. It was a difficult time in the church especially in the south.
The funny thing is, blacks in the priesthood was a thing before Brigham Young. He’s the racist that changed it. It’s written. So very sad that when I asked black members about the why….none ever knew. I sought the knowledge and found out the truth. Crazy!
Bravo! I always learn from this program, but this was a huge dose of historical background. As always you folks were thoughtful and didn’t miss the opportunity this presented to point out the massive hypocrisy and harm done by this church. . Too bad the Mormon Church isn’t the only institution with this problem. This story supports Christopher Higgins’ ( and others ) case that the world would be a better place without religion.
I forgot all about Goodbye I Love You! I read that when I was 10, was a book that my grandmother had in her home library. Lovely book, and part of my journey away from the church.
I’ve heard it said- People are just doing the best they can with the light they have to see by. Unfortunately there are those that believe they have the light and power of god to see by so they really believe their poop don’t stink. And shame on anyone who dares to tell them differently. It’s a whacky world… Thank you MS for another thought provoking podcast.
Thank you for this, it helps explain why my parents(TBM's) are who they are and why they believe what they believe...I love insights into people's minds and motivations...indoctrination is insidious in Utah.
What disturbs me is... I joined the church in 1994 around the same time Benson passed. I vividly remember how my ward and church friends/family grieved him as one of the best and most powerful prophets they'd ever known........ as a non member now and hearing this for the first time, I can't wrap my brain any of its absurdity. Wow
As a young teenager, when being taught yet again about Satan's rebellion, during which he took 1/3rd of God's children (they said "hosts of heaven"), I realized "Wow, that was one huge tantrum and one huge parenting fail". Later it occurred to me, if God and Satan were to reconcile, who would rule Hell and what would happen to all of God's children in Hell that God disowned and abandoned? The conundrum is, God and Satan can never reconcile because then there could not be a hell. Nobody would answer my questions about this and it tortured me, so I just left the church. Of course my leaving was based on similar unanswered questions of logic, but overall, that was it.
I'm learning so much from you people. Thank you. I'm writing my own narrative. Monrmanism is only a chapter or 2. But, you are helping me get right. Thank you.
Well done MS team! Thank you for this content, it is EXACTLY what I needed to hear this week. Dealing with some family drama that includes these topics. Dare I say, this podcast was an answer to my prayers :) I feel validated and more informed. YOU'RE DOING GREAT WORK, KEEP IT UP!
I took it differently. I think that John was emphasizing the fact that he sought to get two highly knowledgeable people to address this subject. Would the "church" have asked a woman to be a presenter on a "panel of experts". I think it would have never happened! From NH Patricia.👵🏻🙂
Most everything in here is on Wikipedia. In fact wiki states: that benson didn’t teach his politics after being made made president of the church. There is also an interesting discussion on which apostles rejected Bensons message and how it was handled. I think the fact that other apostles disagreed but that his quotes still appear on the church website is interesting.
Awesome! Benson is my favorite leader to study about because of his connections to the world outside of Mormonism in addition to his role as a Mormon leader, and I loved the interview you did with Matt Harris a few years back about him. I'm happy to see John Larsen talking about him as well, especially since I remember the Red Scare episode of Mormon Expression.
Benson sent Idaho state endorsement letters to pastors of other faiths not to oppose mormon doctrines. Taft Benson came from the powerfull skull and bones ancestry
Benson served as Secretary of Agriculture under Pres Eisenhower His experience with power mongers in the US government and around the world gave him inside information that we as Americans cannot appreciate. I did not agree with all he espoused but considered he may be warning us of dangers ahead for the US. The Constitution was the best document the Founding Fathers could ALL agree on at that time. Without the concessions to slavery( which I know was abhorrent to many) I believe the Constitution would not have been ratified. The creators factored in ways to amend and adjust as necessary .....which we have done. I have followed and loved John Larsen's work for years but find some of his comments overly biased. We are all subjected to our experiences and need to realize conformation bias can influence our own perspective. Perfection alludes the best of us. Benson was chosen to lead the LDS church and his bias affected his advice. Each member should have then and today research and decide what to accept from our leaders . Problematically,ẞx personal revelation is not accepted by our leaders if it conflicts with guidelines or church policy.
I forgot to mention this earlier. I forgot that Cain was mentioned with Gadianton Robbers in 4th Nephi. So is this a connection between the curse myths? Gadianton is a descendant of Cain? I lost my BOM years ago. I will search for this too. But how interesting if this is where the curse myths converge.
Also, if the policy is that the words of the living prophet prevails and he says things that contradict what any previous prophet has said, including JS Jr (hence the reason why Benson’s favorite primary song was I’m a Mormon Boy, but Nelson says ʻMormon’ is of the devil), then the Church and its policies are constantly shifting like sand dunes in the wind, while the rhetoric is truth is eternal and remains constant, a primary tenent of conservatism. So self-contradicting.
This episode breaks my heart. The past few years I’ve struggled with the polarized politics. I’ve struggled to understand how those I love, family and church members, could claim to believe in Christ’s teachings yet embrace blatantly cruel prejudice/supremest misogynistic political leaders. I struggled to understand how these conflicting ideologies could exist side by side? How could so many hateful/hurtful policies be supported while testifying of Christ?
Now it’s making sense. I was a late teen when Benson was the PSR. I wasn’t paying attention to what was being preached from the pulpit, but now I understand that those around me were. No one questioned what was being said and it took deep roots. No wonder the red maga hats were embraced. The seeds were planted as of straight from god. We were too young to question it then and now it feels familiar.
My heart is broken.
I totally agree- this makes so much sense
I haven’t watched the video yet but it was so surreal for me to see this video come up. I’m a Benson. Ezra T. Benson was my paternal grandpa’s first cousin. My great-grandfather was also named Ezra Taft Benson, because the first male child in each generation had the name. It started with my 3rd great-grandfather, Ezra Taft Benson, the early convert, apostle, and pioneer who had 8 wives (one of whom he “adopted” from his buddy Brigham Young after he died) and numerous Paiute slaves. Thankfully, my grandparents stopped being part of the Mormon church in the 1960s and ended the tradition of naming their children Ezra Taft. Now hardly any of the Bensons (in my corner of the family tree, anyway) are Mormon. I’ve been learning more about my family history over the years and as much as it makes me uncomfortable I feel it is important to acknowledge the real pain and suffering that Mormonism has wrought upon generations. Thank you for this video!
Reed Benson used to attend our student ward at BYU for some reason, many, many years ago. He would sit in the audience with all of his beautiful children. I would usually sit behind him and stare at the back of his head.
Turns out you could be a cousin of John Dehlin.
My brother tried the "product of their time" line with me. My response was, "Is God so impotent that He cannot give correction to His anointed servants?"
Carol Lynn is my dear friend (as she is to so many). When I shared with her my departure from the church, she sent me the poem "Pioneers". A treasure, to be sure. I count my Mormon heritage as a valuable part of my journey. I am my own pioneer.
Your comment reminds me of Heather Gay’s episodes. I love that you’ve embraced your role in rewriting the script!
Many, many trekked west, not knowing where they'd eventually settle, call home... But Mormon pioneers knew they were trying be out of the reach of the U.S. Govt and restrictions of the law that prohibit marriage w/more than one. Many of the founders of the U.S. were Christian, follow the Bible &think polygamy is wrong... Mormons, were fleeing TOWARD polygamy, and away from monogamous marriage... Good4U 4making the break...
this whole show has me flooded with thoughts! I graduated high school in 1987 so Benson was a big part of my teen and young adult, young parenting years. I remember my dad acting weird when I would talk about Benson I remember one particular time he acted almost disgusted and it was when my friends and I got to go see Benson in person at a special seminary event because we read the whole Book of Mormon. Growing up in Southern California that was a BIG deal!! The prophet was coming to see us!!
I came back talking about the US constitution hanging by a thread, etc. My dad isn’t alive anymore. What I wouldn’t give to ask him about that time. I assume he kept quiet because he didn’t want to injure my testimony of the prophet since we were all-in in our beliefs and this. I so wish I could ask. My mum died in April so I can’t ask her either.
My father moved us to Utah in 1972 and immediately joined the John Birtch society, cried when Nixon resigned and supported Gov. Wallace for President. Traumatic years and fear feeds fanaticism.
My father spent his career working for the JBS. The paranoia is still alive and well, unfortunately.
I'm sorry. Solidarity
Wallace ran in 68 against Nixon so that seems strange he supported both when they were very different candidates from different parties.
I love listening to John Larsen. What a humble and intelligent man.
John Larsen is always great at giving us the big picture. And it’s the big picture that helps people see more clearly! Great work!
I found this out while at BYU and the fact that the General Authorities fought against the Civil Rights movement was a major shelf item.
They still are today too
I remember asking my mother why African Americans were not allowed to join the church until 1978, and her response was, "Well, the general authorities knew black people were being persecuted enough already, and making them members would only make things worse."
I nodded, but inside my 13 year old mind, I was calling bull s***.
They were allowed to join the church. Men of color couldn't hold the priesthood though.
May I ask a question ? I hear references to " a shelf " ( broken , having stuff put in or taken out ect ) , can you explain what they mean ? It seems to have something to do with people faith but is seem to miss the meaning
It is. Imagine a shelf, and the more stuff gets put on it the weaker it becomes and eventually breaks.@@bestaqua23
I have heard Carolyn's poem about pioneers and I love it. When I feel ashamed of my Mormon Heritage, I remember her poem.❤
I served in the US Army in southeastern Germany during the Cold War. It was intense. Fear was high. We did so many alerts and drills because we had to be ready to move fast. We were preparing for the red horde to come barreling across the Fulda Gap and our area would just be a speed bump on their way. Nothing we have going on now compares to the level of fear and tension looming over us during the cold war. We were always concerned about nuclear war. Thank you for this topic, John Larsen. Hi John D and Carah. I am always thrilled to see the three of you together!
I truly believe that this is one of your most important episodes to date. The backstory of Benson and his continuing influence is so revealing and enlightening. Thank you so much for your efforts and time.
I'm crying 13 minutes in! I always look forward to these episodes with John and Carah ❤ thank you everyone ❤
I cried too.
John L. You are a pearl of reasonable price!
I never fail to be impressed by your presentations and I thank you, all 3 of you, for the hard work you do to bring these to my home.
I was born in '71 and like many families, we needed 2 incomes. It is to my great shame that I once told my mother if she had enough faith to quit her job, God would bless my Dad with a better job. Isn't that a horrible thing to say? What I didn't understand until I was older is that the prophet was saying, "Don't accept government handouts," but also saying, "Mothers should not work outside the home," and you HAVE to be a mother because birth control is evil and your only purpose is to have kids and support your priesthood holder.
When were these women supposed to catch a break?
Agreed. It was like if you’re not in the minority percentage of families who could have a stay-at-home mom AND the dad earn enough to support the entire family decently, then something was wrong with you……or you were not worthy. The tremendous and even impossible pressures put on LDS families (esp. women), is one of the big turn-offs to joining. No wonder Utah has a high suicide rate. Sad.
John, John and Carah you are all three ROCK STARS in my book. ⭐️⭐️⭐️ Thank you for this excellent episode! When ET was made prophet, seer and revelator my mother-in-law was openly not happy about it. I knew nothing of his history and was surprised at her expressed disappointment. And now I understand why she felt that way. Dangerous dude. Well … part of a dangerous church. I have never understood why so many LDS people are Trumpers. And now I understand the influence the church has had on them and their political beliefs. You always educate and illuminate. Love you all! ✨✨✨
This was very enlightening, as I'm not LDS but have had many friends in the church, and this helps me connect the dots with their overall socio-political/cultural views and behaviors. Wow. Thank you! And i LOVED LOVED LOVED your impassioned plea for calling out the lies, for standing against abuse, for repentance in ANY "church"!
At one point I was in an exMormon support group online with Steve Benson, grandson to Ezra. He and his wife left together largely due to Ezra and things Steve saw around his Presidency. He saw his grandfather sick and dementia laden yet ‘prophecies continued to come out. Steve and his wife wrote extensively about why they left. It was interesting and also helpful to me as I had recently left.
Love John Larsen! What a great presentation! Thank you all three. Love Carah as well.
I love John Larsen. Always a great guest.
Thank you. Watching from Alaska.
Benson became president of the Mormon corporation when I was on my mission.
I was such a new convert that I was learning new things about the church all the time on my mission. Things that were likely common knowledge amount lifelong or legacy Mormons.
More and more, I had the feeling that I should have never been on a mission.
Little by little, the validity of Benson, and the other top church leaders, and the church became more and more suspect. Plus the scammy behavior I saw among *some* church members. And, because of so many other things - including the racist stuff, I was out of the church by the time Benson died.
Had the Internet been around back then, I would have easily done research and never joined.
Thank you for helping to reveal the fraud, lies, deception, scam, grifting, spiritual brutality, toxic patriarchy, sexism, racism, homophobia, outlandish claims, troubling 1800s church history, the scammer Joseph Smith, and the pedophilia and ephebophelia among early church leaders with their polygamist marriages... including the sex/human trafficking of girls and young ladies from Europe into the polygamist marriages in American Mormonism of the 1800s.
The Book of Mormon should always be given with the church study guide: The CES Letter, and the video classes: RFM, Mormon Stories Podcast, Mormonish, and Zelph on the Shelf.
Beautiful example of charity and humility tonight! Super edified by the apology and the honesty. Amazing.
As a lapsed Catholic, Marxist-Leninist, labor/trade unionist, amateur Mormon historian - this was a great episode!
One issue with the Carolyn Pearson book. She talked about "slave boys". The tendency in Western thinking is that slavery is based on race. It's actually an American socialization. People are born and made into slaves not by choice or birthright. To imply that it was chosen in the pre-existence is horribly offensive just like the doctrine about the fence sitters being cursed with dark skin. After all who would ever choose slavery?
Yes, that slavery and poverty are “chosen” makes the oppressor not responsible but rather a part of gods plan, but I guess that’s the problem with believing in god.
My problem is they are absolutely sure those with black skin are cursed because of what they did or did not do in the premortal life but nobody can say exavtly what? Really? And if blacks were 'fence sitters' why didn't God just cast them off with Satan? Is God so cruel that they should not only be punished in the after life but this life as well. Seems like it would have been better if they chose the side of the devil.
@healingasthmaacasestudy9851 As an African American who believes in God I disagree. I believe in liberation Theology. God came to set the captives free.
John D, yes! Ezra Taft Benson started the shame cycle for working mothers. It continued in the church for many years. I remember this so vividly. This shame and the anger I felt is what first caused me to doubt and eventually leave the church.
Same. His words caused so much stress in women’s lives. But that’s nothing new among church leaders.
I'm 61. An exmo. I think ETB was a right-wing punk hell bent on marginalizing and excluding sections of society. I'm sorry you all had to suffer the shaming and goodness knows what else because of ETB and church leaders (*even today 2023), whom belong to a collective uncaring religion.
@@TheShodan92 Thank you.
Sending my very best to John Larson. I have so much respect for you and your integrity.
I cannot believe how much John's review of ETB echoes my childhood, word for word.
I haven't listened yet but I'm BEYOND THRILLED to see this was released today. I came here specifically to check if Larsen would be on soon. #teamjohnlarsen
Oh heck. As I’m listening, I realize this is the guy that shaped my understanding of government, as I read his book, ‘The Proper Role of Government’ as a teen and took it as Gods word, since it was written by a prophet. Yet another thing to unpack and rethink.
As a teen during Benson’s leadership this has been very informative and healing. Thank you! ❤
I absolutely love Carol Lynn Pearson. Thank you for reading her beautiful letter.
John Larsen, you are one nuanced ho. I must admit, my (very wrong) first impression was that you were just an angry ex Mormon. But that's only a small part of the picture. Intelligence, empathy, humility... Those are a few words that start to round out the picture. Thanks for continuing to be part of the exmo landscape. You, John, and Carah are three mighty pillars of support in this space.
This helps me understand my in laws so much better.
I'm really grateful for this episode. I was raised by a JBS paid leader. So glad the two Johns have made this alliance. I've listened to both of you for many years.
I really like him but we could only have a conversation about vehicles. Anything about religion or politics ended up sad. He was just deceived. The John birch society didn’t pay very many people.
@@michealcobia7869 very much relate. Our only safe topic seems to be animals. We both love our pets.
I can never look at Pioneer Day the same after the Lafferty crimes.
Wow. Didn't realize that happened on July 24th, Pioneer Day.
Same!
Being evidence based is diametrically opposed to being a Mormon.
Generally true of high demand religions and organizations.
Dear Mormon stories and John Larsen! I come from Poland and anyone from that part of the world (ex Soviet sphere of influence) would agree that commusism is as close to hell as it gets. We have a first hand experience. I get it that maybe John explores the theoretic concept of communism as positive, but in some books slave owners were portrayed as protector and providers, no? Communism or socialism is not liberal democracies of the scandinavian countries, it is what Stalin and Lenin did to us. My grandgrandparents were forcefully displaced to Siberia, Polish society was being destroyed. Can we please not romantisize it? It is not just a system with free healthcare, like conservatists say. It was purely evil and please do not gaslight us:-)
Please do an episode on disagreements among church leadership. Interesting to know how that is been handled in an organization that doesn’t remove anything after has been stated publicly.
It interests me how unabashedly past church authorities did not water down their words. Whereas, it seems that we get little more than watered down pablum from authorities today. Today's authorities are so much about smoke and mirrors and vagaries. Even to the point of attempting to disavow words of past prophets. In the old days you knew exactly where these guys stood. If the brethren spoke as forthrightly today, they would bleed out membership so fast their heads would spin, and they know it.
You three are an absolutely fantastic team. I love the way you all interact. 👍
I love Carolyn also. My Turn on Earth came out, as a play, just after I had joined the church. I still share it with everyone I can.
Speak it John Larson!👏👏👏 thank you!
1:04:40 I am a public school teacher in Utah. I have never been met with such instantaneous mistrust and suspicion in any other facet of my life.
John, I loved your rant about Mormons buying into conspiracies. And I think Benson contributed greatly to the problem. However, part of it is hardwired into a people who have learned not to think critically but to accept things on faith and conflate feelings with facts.
Granted, that alone won't make you fall for ridiculous conspiracies. However, it will make your much less able to spot them.
And here's the eye-opening part: the conspiracies you mentioned aren't really any more ridiculous than the religion Mormons have already sold their entire minds and souls to. Mormons are quite primed to believe ridiculous conspiracies just by already believing in a ridiculous religion.
I say that not in condemnation of Mormons as a people (I spent half my life as one) but in condemnation of the organization that at every level, grooms its members to believe dangerous nonsense. Benson was a symptom of this not the cause.
As you said yourself, "those who can make you believe absurdities, can make you commit atrocities". And even if they're not making you commit them, they're grooming you to not be able to identify that you're committing them.
Learning to judge myself outside of waiting for a man to tell me I am worth has been the biggest struggle. But I am sure it will be a worthwhile journey in the end.
Can you imagine Alex Jones and Benson hanging out together? YIKES!
1:52:54 I don’t want to ding the church for changing in a positive way when positive change is what I ask of them, but we also have to make a point that part of making these changes properly involves properly addressing and making statements of correction about the beliefs and rules, and the leaders haven’t done and still aren’t doing that.
You are absolutely right that the church members have to be careful when they say that god inspired the US constitution because slavery existed.
I am not Mormon but did attend the church as a child with my moms family. She had no idea my dads family were pioneers snd early members. That poem deeply resonated with me as i have struggled how to process the church's history which is inextricably entwined with my family history.
I joined the Church in 1979, one year after moving to Sandy. Serving in Primary was my first calling. I remember well her books which were all beautifully written. I had bought many and they became a special part of my library. Sadly, I later lost them in a flood. (No, not The Flood!!)
I thought her books were out of print. I’m thrilled to see her alive and well.
I’m just barely into my faith crisis, but I may well reorder some of my favorites books she authored. I would love to read specifically to some of my greatgrands who are not members.
John Larson, what a moving apology. You all are class acts and have no idea how important you are in my current life status.
Much love and respect to you of you!! XOXO
Great poem
Sonia Johnson was one of them. She was great. My mother marched with her in SLC
The stories on the Lamanites and Nephites, and the “curse” of dark skin, are why I first really started questioning the LDS church. It was so skimmed over in my ward and family, and I refused to let it go.
Wow, did I just taste home storage wheat? I am so amazed at the power of this Church. Until I started listening to so many hours now of these podcasts I was missing a huge part of American history interpretation. I still am in my non religious bubble as often as I can exist there. But damn, just calling it "The Church" says it. Love ya'll. How can the Church repent ? What would be left?
I think you’re absolutely correct about the church apologizing. Been saying this for years. If the church were to acknowledge any (institutional) incorrectness it would completely undermine it’s own claims to any authority or credibility whatsoever. The church painted itself into this moral and ethical corner long ago, in the way it constructed it’s claims to these things in the first place; claiming direct authority from God via ongoing revelation, and that it’s doctrines and sources are the most true, the most pure, the highest on earth…leaves the church nowhere to go in terms of admitting any fallibility at all. Any admission/apology brings the whole structure down.
The one thing I could see the church doing to bridge this reality gap (and it will require a change in core leadership, so…time) is if they are able to reframe the entire system as a man made one. It would need to be framed conceptually in a way that allows the die-hard members to manage the mental contortions of shifting from “the church is god-made and led and therefore cannot make mistakes and never changes it’s eternal aspects” to “ the church is inspired by god and makes mistakes along the way but is still true because it is self-correcting”. I don’t know how that could be done, but I wouldn’t be surprised if there’s some PR genius out there who might be coming up through the ranks right now, that would have the insight and silver tongue to manage it. Possibly. It’s happened before both in the church and out; ideas that land just right and overcome reason just enough to shift a mass of people so they forget that they ever thought differently.
Ezra Taft Benson was the one who advised the youth of the church to avoid watching R rated movies. That's when members of the church adopted the no R rated movies stance, even though it was never an official commandment.
You guys should do an episode focusing on the church's attitude towards R rated films. I think it would be interesting because there are some members who don't care about watching R rated films, and then there are some who are completely strict and will refuse to watch them.
This "Gadean robbers" business is silly, everyone knows Cain went on to be an ancestor of Grendel, the monster in Beowulf!!
Emjoying learning all this stuff, thanks for making so much publicly available!!
Yay! I love this series.
Had a slight heart attack when he mentioned it was July 24th (Pioneer Day) as today is 7/27 when the video was uploaded. I thought I had somehow lost 3 days 😂
Benson as prophet is giving me current Diane Feinstein vibes (i.e. elder abuse and old people unwilling to give up their power when they are obviously mentally gone).
The Mormon obsession with authority. Capitalists have interests and have the right to pursue them (and also have a tendency to exploit their workers as much as they can get away with). Workers also have interests and have the right to pursue them. Workers have the right to try and minimize their exploitation. The capitalists are always engaging in class warfare in pursuit of their interests, so the workers should always fight too.
Great episode and summary of E.T.B. I believe the reason he focuses on the US Merchant Marine was that they were important to national defense (and had been crucial in the world wars) but also had strong trade unions.
Benson was asked to run as vice president with George "Segregation Forever" Wallace in 1968 on a third-party ticket. McKay refused permission. Wallace's eventual running mate was Air Force General Curtis LeMay, and accepting that position pretty much destroyed his public reputation and legacy.
It's fascinating to me that the church seriously wanted to be an international religion when its leadership held such USA-centric beliefs.
Anyone who's interested: Get "Watchman on the Tower" by Matthew Harris!!
They are disavowing, not denouncing. They will not be forgiven until they take responsibility for their sins.
Benson's philosophy re getting assistance was a (if not THE) reason my family didn't have enough food while I was growing up. F him.
Happy Happy Happy 🎉❤🎉 Cara John John 🎉❤🎉
We have to share with non members and younger members that Celestial eugenics was fully taught as truthful gospel. We are all told that we all are born with one spiritual gift. We were told that the status, family, country and physical handicaps or gifts were due to how valiant and righteous and intelligence we were in the pre-existing life. Aye, there's the rub.
I remember all that, and it caused a lot of shame in my life because I didn’t come from an ideal background. How different my life could have been if people like Benson hadn’t crushed my spirit when I was young.
I’m also related to ETB, and when I was about 8 years old (1987ish) we went to a family reunion in Utah where he made a brief special appearance (in his wheelchair if I remember right) and we all got to shake hands with him. We also got to leave our personal copies of The Book of Mormon. He signed them and they were sent back to us in the mail a couple months later. I still have mine! Not proud to be related to this guy just to be clear 😆
Love that John Larsen!
I was born 1960 and grew up with a racist stepfather that was attracted to the church because of the fundamentalist dogma. He was converted out west while stationed with the us Air Force and took this dogma home to NC and slipped into the pews of mainstream LDS with my mother and her 2 very young daughters. The civil rights era caused controversy and conversations with in the priesthood that my racist came home angry about. Those conversations and concerns came to fruition in 1978 when the church opened the priesthood to black males. It was a difficult time in the church especially in the south.
The funny thing is, blacks in the priesthood was a thing before Brigham Young. He’s the racist that changed it. It’s written. So very sad that when I asked black members about the why….none ever knew. I sought the knowledge and found out the truth.
Crazy!
I love Ezra Taft Benson. The perfect antidote to those of you overcome by critical pedagogy.
Bravo! I always learn from this program, but this was a huge dose of historical background. As always you folks were thoughtful and didn’t miss the opportunity this presented to point out the massive hypocrisy and harm done by this church. . Too bad the Mormon Church isn’t the only institution with this problem. This story supports Christopher Higgins’ ( and others ) case that the world would be a better place without religion.
I forgot all about Goodbye I Love You! I read that when I was 10, was a book that my grandmother had in her home library. Lovely book, and part of my journey away from the church.
I’ve heard it said-
People are just doing the best they can with the light they have to see by. Unfortunately there are those that believe they have the light and power of god to see by so they really believe their poop don’t stink. And shame on anyone who dares to tell them differently.
It’s a whacky world…
Thank you MS for another thought provoking podcast.
Ezra Taft Benson was my Great Grandmothers favorite "prophet". She was born in 1909. The coat of many colors.
Thank you for this, it helps explain why my parents(TBM's) are who they are and why they believe what they believe...I love insights into people's minds and motivations...indoctrination is insidious in Utah.
What disturbs me is... I joined the church in 1994 around the same time Benson passed. I vividly remember how my ward and church friends/family grieved him as one of the best and most powerful prophets they'd ever known........ as a non member now and hearing this for the first time, I can't wrap my brain any of its absurdity. Wow
Appreciate the combined wisdom of you three presenters on the legacy of ETB who like all Mormon “propped ups” was a legend in his own mind.
As a young teenager, when being taught yet again about Satan's rebellion, during which he took 1/3rd of God's children (they said "hosts of heaven"), I realized "Wow, that was one huge tantrum and one huge parenting fail". Later it occurred to me, if God and Satan were to reconcile, who would rule Hell and what would happen to all of God's children in Hell that God disowned and abandoned? The conundrum is, God and Satan can never reconcile because then there could not be a hell. Nobody would answer my questions about this and it tortured me, so I just left the church. Of course my leaving was based on similar unanswered questions of logic, but overall, that was it.
BTW....I am amazed at your podcasts, and information.
I'm interested in joining the Gadianton Robbers? How does one go about contacting them?
😂😆 💜
They meet weekly at the church office building.
@@jasonroyce295 🤣😂 yes!
What did Benson think about Senator Frank Church? How was church reelected (until 1980) given Benson and similar others?
He didn’t like him but Church was very popular in Idaho, more so in the less Mormon west and north then the East though
I'm learning so much from you people. Thank you. I'm writing my own narrative. Monrmanism is only a chapter or 2. But, you are helping me get right. Thank you.
I first went to BYU the fall of 1987 also, John. I only stayed 1 semester. Too much for me.
Well done MS team! Thank you for this content, it is EXACTLY what I needed to hear this week. Dealing with some family drama that includes these topics. Dare I say, this podcast was an answer to my prayers :) I feel validated and more informed. YOU'RE DOING GREAT WORK, KEEP IT UP!
Another good one tonight, John.
“A lot of the time reading this Mormon shit it’s hard.” Jon Larson. Lol. I love listening to your videos. Keep the clear language coming. 😊
Cara using every fiber of her being not to address the “female, woman, podcaster…” comment 😬
You know me so well. 😂
I took it differently. I think that John was emphasizing the fact that he sought to get two highly knowledgeable people to address this subject. Would the "church" have asked a woman to be a presenter on a "panel of experts". I think it would have never happened! From NH Patricia.👵🏻🙂
Most everything in here is on Wikipedia. In fact wiki states: that benson didn’t teach his politics after being made made president of the church.
There is also an interesting discussion on which apostles rejected Bensons message and how it was handled. I think the fact that other apostles disagreed but that his quotes still appear on the church website is interesting.
another great episode, and i can't wait to hear john larsen's take on the reed smoot hearings!
Awesome! Benson is my favorite leader to study about because of his connections to the world outside of Mormonism in addition to his role as a Mormon leader, and I loved the interview you did with Matt Harris a few years back about him. I'm happy to see John Larsen talking about him as well, especially since I remember the Red Scare episode of Mormon Expression.
In regards to the cell at the Department of Agriculture, Benson was talking about the Alger Hiss case.
Benson sent Idaho state endorsement letters to pastors of other faiths not to oppose mormon doctrines. Taft Benson came from the powerfull skull and bones ancestry
Benson served as Secretary of Agriculture under Pres Eisenhower His experience with power mongers in the US government and around the world gave him inside information that we as Americans cannot appreciate. I did not agree with all he espoused but considered he may be warning us of dangers ahead for the US. The Constitution was the best document the Founding Fathers could ALL agree on at that time. Without the concessions to slavery( which I know was abhorrent to many) I believe the Constitution would not have been ratified. The creators factored in ways to amend and adjust as necessary .....which we have done. I have followed and loved John Larsen's work for years but find some of his comments overly biased. We are all subjected to our experiences and need to realize conformation bias can influence our own perspective. Perfection alludes the best of us. Benson was chosen to lead the LDS church and his bias affected his advice. Each member should have then and today research and decide what to accept from our leaders .
Problematically,ẞx personal revelation is not accepted by our leaders if it conflicts with guidelines or church policy.
Nuancehoe and JohnnyDuo!!
Lori Vallow is confident she is following "god" just like Benson was confident he was following "god".
If Benson had to substantiate his claims, he would have almost nothing to say.
We used “To the Mother’s of Zion” on my mission when the TP ran out.
I forgot to mention this earlier. I forgot that Cain was mentioned with Gadianton Robbers in 4th Nephi. So is this a connection between the curse myths? Gadianton is a descendant of Cain? I lost my BOM years ago. I will search for this too. But how interesting if this is where the curse myths converge.
John: "it was like weekend at Bernie's" hahahahaha. Love it.
Good stuff guys.
I wonder how Benson would have dealt with the CES letter.
He would probably say it was godless and communist.
The "minor" complication is how does one know that a certain deity exists, let alone what his/her will is?
John Larson is amazing! If i spelled that wrong.. i blame 'auto correct '. Hahaha
Excellent.
Also, if the policy is that the words of the living prophet prevails and he says things that contradict what any previous prophet has said, including JS Jr (hence the reason why Benson’s favorite primary song was I’m a Mormon Boy, but Nelson says ʻMormon’ is of the devil), then the Church and its policies are constantly shifting like sand dunes in the wind, while the rhetoric is truth is eternal and remains constant, a primary tenent of conservatism. So self-contradicting.