I had missionaries come to my door and they told me to pray to God to give me scripture from the Book of Mormon to let me know it’s all true. I did it and closed my eyes and randomly flipped to a page and still with my eyes closed put my finger on some scripture. I landed on those exact scriptures about how God will make your skin darker the more you sin and the dark skin sinner will never make it to the highest celestial plane like the light skin people. We’ll as a mother of 3 Hispanic brown skin children. (I am white) I was livid! I ask the missionaries what the hell does this mean? That I could go the the highest celestial plane but my kids can’t because the color of their skin!!!!??. They told me to not pay too much attention to that, that I need to read the whole Book of Mormon to understand. I asked them to leave.
That actually wasn’t the end of it. I told them I had no intention of being Mormon but they were welcome to come on their off day and play video games with my kids, Drink coke and watch R rated movies. (My sister is Mormon and I knew they couldn’t do any of that on their mission). They came once a week for a month and had a blast! ( I know, I’m going to Mormon hell for that. Lol)
@@gail995 the missionaries in my ward as a kid in Arizona would come over and play Doom on the PlayStation for hours at a time. Good for them. It was 115 degrees outside
I've never felt "the spirit" i.e. elevation emotion so strongly as I did when John Dehlin ranted about how leaving the church connects us to humanity 😭❤
As a fundamentalist evangelical, I felt pretty superior (especially to Mormons😅) until I had an encounter with a Muslim on a bus on the way to work at the Bible College where I was teaching at the time. This young Pakistaní guy invited me to his apartment for a discussion. I saw this as an opportunity to witness to lost Muslims and readily accepted the invitation. I arrived at the apartment and engaged in a discussion that lasted a couple of hours. The leader of the discussion was an older Egyptian gentleman who knew the New Testament way better than I did. He peppered me with questions about discrepancies in the text, and I had no way to respond because most of the examples he cited were absolutely accurate, and well known to scholars of lots of different faiths including Christianity. I learned that the New Testament was far more complex and interesting than I previously imagined, as well as humbling. The discussion spurred my deconstruction away from Fundamentalism towards a more nuanced faith. I owe those Muslims a debt of gratitude.
Galatians 3:28 (NIV): "There is neither Jew nor Gentile, neither slave nor free, nor is there male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus." You shouldn’t feel superior to anyone. All are one in Christ.
You needed to have practised 1Peter3:15 We evangelicals dont have the answers but Jesus calls us to love John15&16,why would you deconstruct that to jihad a pillar of islam you missed...however DO AGREE WITH HAVE ALOT OF WAY TOO MANY ARROGANT MEMBERS TOTALLY UNAWARE OF GALATIANS6:1-2/ROMANS12:1-3😊
John D, your rants tonight were absolutely incredible! I need to express how much I agree with what you said in those powerful few minutes. I had no idea how much more love and less judgment I would feel for people even just one year out. I believe much more today than I ever did as a Mormon that we’re all the equivalent of brothers and sisters with how we should treat each other. Amen to everything you said-joining the rest of humanity makes it impossible to go backwards into that silent and unspoken judgment i harbored because of the teachings of the Church. And I love John Larsen’s comments about the Church and prosperity gospel. He’s absolutely right and it’s one of the reasons we see such bad financial action in Utah-the superiority bred into people makes them believe that the rules do not apply to them because of how special and chosen they are. Thanks to all three of you for bringing the fire tonight!
Great comment! I'm just an outsider looking in. Truly fascinating conversation. I wonder how Mormons would fare if their religious foundation fell to the ground. How would they fare in a non-Mormon world?
When I left Mormonism, some of my family shunned me. No matter what I do in my life and how successful I am, some of them treat me like they pity me and don’t want to be around me.
It's their loss, not your's. You are able to think for yourself by using your brain. They are just like sheep, being told what do do. They are the poor souls who follow a lunatic cult.
Not me I grew up Greek Orthodox in a all white Mormon neighborhood I always watched Mormons treat me like I was nothing just because I couldn’t be part af the “true religion”. Thanks guys!
One question, which of the two church’s feel like a church? The one you can scream in, play sports, run around laughing with colorless walls and no less then 2 basket ball hoops Sports, tournaments for every kind of occasion and last but not least the place where teenagers can dance (as long as there is a space the size of the Book of Mormon between them) or The Greek Orthodox Church. ( full disclosure I’m now an atheist )
My hometown was supposedly 98% LDS, and it was the most elitist place I've ever known. While I did meet some really kind and awesome LDS people there, it was much more the norm to act entitled, intolerant, dogmatic, and narcissistic. I'm so grateful I never fit in. I could've easily turned into an asshole had I been popular or powerful in such a toxic environment. Yes, it sucked to be bullied and shunned by fellow Mormons, but it made me question my entire identity and world view. Ultimately, being labeled as a "freak" opened up the door for me to figure out who I truly am. And being rejected by my own group taught me how to find real community and connection with people from around the world. As an Ex-Mormon, I'm now the happiest and healthiest I've ever been. I'm so glad I was never "good enough" to be Mormon!
I've lived in predominantly (small) Mormon communities for about the last 22 years, boy, you hit the nail on the head. "Entitled", "intolerant", "narcissistic", bully mentality are so accurate. You forgot OMNISCIENT! For a bunch of brainwashed, manipulated/controlled, FLEECED cultists, they sure do know it all; hubris for days and days. I must credit those who devised such an astonishingly effective, self perpetuating scheme as the Mormon cult. However, I give even more credit to anyone who was born into it, that sees it for what it really is, and breaks free of its spell. Now we all need to do the same about NWO.
I was LDS for 20 years with a temple marriage and 4 children. I left because being a stay home Mom I opted to work from home. Each week about 15 kids came through my in home daycare. I had about 3 Church callings. Someone from the pulpit would speak to how we couldn't obtain the Celestial Kingdom unless we did such and so. Temple work, missionary work, genealogy, etc. etc. "I'm good enough!!!" My inside voice said!
2 ชั่วโมงที่ผ่านมา
You can’t do it all. I hear you. They used to push so hard on everything. Being a parent is hard enough.
John D’s last rant about discovering that people don’t all need what I’m peddling is the discovery I made on my mission that made the biggest difference in my experience. Thanks for putting words to my feelings John :)
Given that Mormonism was born in the United States, I think it's difficult to fully separate Mormon superiority from the narrative of U.S. exceptionalism as a whole. Although it seems to be far less common in younger generations of Americans, there still exists a massive cultural bias of many Americans thinking of themselves as superior to all other nations and cultures. My fiance is American and I am from New Zealand, which is where we have chosen to settle. Despite living in NZ for years, we still get subjected to pretty insulting lines of questioning over how we could possibly want to live 'at the end of the earth' instead of in the U.S. It seems to stem from the idea that it's a universally held truth that every other country in the world is in some way inferior, even as greater numbers of Americans are openly criticizing their political system, gun culture, healthcare system, etc.
@@denz4133 If I didn't feel an irrational attachment to my American ancestors and I wasn't old now, I would be happy to live in NZ. It is beautiful and the people are lovely.
@@denz4133 If I didn't feel an irrational attachment to my American ancestors and I wasn't old now, I would be happy to live in NZ. It is beautiful and the people are lovely.
Wow, Dr. John! As a Christian who has been deconstructing for a while now, I have NEVER heard anyone say it better! The burden of superiority thinking. How dare we? Lessons and discovery of humanity are everywhere if we pay attention.
I will never forget the moment (for me, 10th grade) when I realized with full clarity that the good guys don't win wars because they're good -- they are considered good because they won. It's so so so so obvious, but when I really understood it all the way through, it changed the way I saw everything.
I finally got the chance to listen to this episode. And, boy! You did not disappoint! I was born in 1957 and grew up being told (and firmly believing) all the “we are the chosen,” “America is blessed and was given to us,” “we are just the best people,” crap. While at BYU a leader in a women’s meeting talked about how we were foreordained for greatness and all the angels in heaven looked at us with reverence because we were born in the 1950s and 1960s. 😳 We were saved for the last days. So then our children were even more blessed. It was just pounded into Church members that we were the elect. We belonged to the ONLY true church. We were superior either because we were more valiant in the pre-existence or we accepted the Church after we were born. Then we moved to Los Angeles. I worked for a CPA firm where most of the partners were Jewish. I’ve never been judgmental. But I admit to being surprised at the high caliber of these Jewish folks! My boss was a wonderful guy. I also worked and was neighbors with people of many different faiths. And they were moral and kind people. About that time the knowledge that you don’t have to be Mormon to be “good” was planted in my brain. It was this knowledge that grew to my eventual apostasy. Also being exposed to several Church members who were not necessarily “good.” And, in LA as well as Colorado I met people who are gay that were truly wonderful people. Go figure. When I gained the ability to see through the LDS lies and notice how things were geared toward men and being made to feel like I was horrible because I was a working mother. I didn’t have the strength to follow the Prophet and stop working. Well, yeah, how else were we to pay our bills?! And …I read No Man Knows My History. Eye opener. When I quit attending Church and started making it known to others all my LDS friends were so sad 😢, and shocked 😮, and wondered why? I remember telling one close friend that I thought the Church was very elitest and judgmental. She thought that was so strange. Thanks for this episode with the two John’s and Carah. The dynamic trio! So intelligent and articulate. You are all spot on! 🎯🎯🎯
I grew up in Texas with a ward that had its founding members from Utah (1970s). I recall being made to feel that “mission field” wards were the step child to the very worthy wards of Utah that had “revered and honored” pioneer blood stock. I flew to visit Utah at 12, alone, to visit a friend who had moved to SLC. She wasn’t mormon. At 12, I walked alone to church. Sat in sacrament alone. Found my age group classes alone. Not one single person spoke to me. I left realizing that the sacred stock of Utah weren’t all they said they were (holier than the rest of us). As an adult in the 1990s I went back to Utah for a visit. When I experienced the same coldness at church and the extreme aggression on the roads, I realized the same thing again. I lived all over the USA and Europe with the military, Utah had the most hateful drivers, right under NY/NJ cabbies.
Dude! That Salt Lake Valley, Mormon road rage driving is definitely a thing, "extreme aggression on the roads" is so spot-on! IMO, it's that Mormon motorhead, elitist, entitlement, Grand Poobah (or whatever goofy self-inflated, status they think they have) on wheels mentality. A non-Mo friend of mine once wrote a hardcore punk rock song entitled "Driving Like a Mormon".
I had to send an email to my TBM sister this weekend that literally said don't pity me and to cease contact with me for a while due to this problem. Another email from a TBM brother months ago was very similar. The superiority complex is so deep and real that I will never be as "good" as they are. My TBM mom is a whole other level of righteous. No one is better than another. We have individual issues. We can fix those issues if we work deep within ourselves. If we then come together, we may be able to solve some of the real problems the world is facing. It will never happen as long as there are so many who have these big egos and think they are better than everyone else. You three together are always so good! Thanks for these amazing discussions!!! ❤❤
John, your sharing at the end of this episode was so powerful, the beauty of knowing that it’s okay to be human just like everyone else, to feel connected to others of all races and creeds. That is a beautiful thing, your testimony was so heartfelt it brought tears to my eyes.
It feels like we can be more fully a part of humanity & can be a normal part of the world surrounding us & it feels great to be "normal" & more inclusive of others!
@@latter-daydiscussions4289 yea, yea I was. I have a lot of instances where I was told VERY explicitly that I was meant to be a “leader of men” not only in my patriarchal blessing but also just by leaders and my parents. Unlearning that and realizing that I’m literally just an average person was a HUGE step back for my faith.
John Dehlin, I stood up and clapped when you finished your final points about learning from everyone and breaking the bonds of Mormonism. You at your absolute best!!! Thanks to each of you for this work.
As a convert to the Church and faithful as I could be...I wasn't invited to the minor social events like Tupperware parties. Those were the "Lifer Mormons!" They were the wives of Bishops, etc. Mormons that had bloodlines. Trusted Mormons. I couldn't measure up in this lifetime...
1:39:05 othering exmormons - you definitely can not leave Mormonism with your dignity. A huge red flag and definitely a sign of an unhealthy group. I have been Disowned by my parents, as a 40 year old mother of 4. My kids dont have grandparents and we have lost every close family relationship with ever member of the Church. and I still don't regret learning the truth and being able to live without the fear of a racist, homophobic, sexist god. ❤❤❤
John, you nailed it. After two years as a professor teaching in Utah County - I had never felt so isolated, alienated, or abandoned. The students - were excellent, outstanding, inquisitive - always at the ready with uplifting discussions. But Mormons I met in the Wild - were on occasion more eager to make a convert than a friend. And the Mormon Superiority was an unusual flavor. These folks are pretending to know more than me about something arcane or mystical - and even go so far as to send twenty-year-old "elders" to my doorstep to expound this tale of mirth, woe, and imaginary revelation? It doesn't appeal to how I feel. As a Blue-Collar Raised Catholic from the Midwest, I've already got a truckload of arcane and mystical (2000 years' worth), coupled with common sense - the kind you need to get along with everyone on a Midwest job site - no matter where they are from and what denomination. Ohioans don't take kindly to Holier than Thous. I'm actually kind of surprised that while Jo Jo Smith Junior was in Kirtland, tripping on "only my ideas matter" he didn't get his ass kicked. (Well, maybe he did, but he didn't write about it).
@coco and @rugby, Thank you. On my best day, I don't hold any particular hatred for anyone.... I simply wrote based on some painful personal experiences. And I agree that freedom to worship is a very essential freedom, likely the most important one of all
Scientology does the same thing.. it's part of the mental manipulation to make someone feel elite and self righteous and turn off their brains to any critical thinking that makes that pedestal they put themselves on wobble.
"...you get to enter the human race as a fellow citizen." This is so well put, John D. What an amazing opportunity for all of us to connect with others and learn from them.
Always hated it being referred to as "THE" Church - as if everyone in the world knew what church it was. What makes being LDS so superior to everyone else? Great program!
This topic is excellent, and needs much discussion. Thanks for opening it up on your podcast, John. I hope it will receive a lot more examination, maybe in other exmo venues. This is one of the realizations that brought me out of faith in Mormonism. Realizing just how completely the church indoctrinates it’s members with this belief that Mormons are somehow innately, not just superior, but genuinely more “human” in a sense, than the rest of humanity. “We are the People, everyone else is The World”, is a real, but invisible tenet of Mormon faith mentality. It is SO seamlessly woven into the fabric of Mormon identity. It’s so invisible. Even after seeing it, I wasn’t aware for years of just how it was still embedded in my sense of myself, until one day, around the time I officially left the church. I was sitting in my car after having parked in a store lot, looking around for a moment at all the other shoppers going in and out, it came over me; this profound sense of being just one of the humans, among all the other humans. Just an ordinary, garden variety human. I felt real in a way that I had not realized that I did not feel, until that moment. It was such a healing, incredible sensation, re joining my humanity as part of the human family. I sat there and soaked that feeling in, and wept a little. It was like coming home after a long, cold journey of isolation and loneliness. And I’d had no idea I was so cut off, until I finally experienced the reconnection.
Thank you for sharing. I experienced this same thing over and over (also at stores with other shoppers) after going through a period of intense stress which brought up a lot of questions I didn't realize I had. I felt like I was rejoining humanity as I realized this faith was not even something that I could realistically live up to (no one can). I also never realized there was any disconnect between me and the rest of humanity. A truly beautiful experience. I had longed for so long just to be a person like everyone else in the world. Such a relief. Painful (in certain ways), comforting and so beautiful.
Atheist here...thank you for your kind words and understanding...As an Atheist I find my truths everywhere...which is why I listen to your wonderful podcast...I was born into a Mormon family, my great grandma was a born into a polygamous family. I did not know that until well after she had passed away...my Mormon family is why I became a non-mormon and eventually an Atheist.
Haven't even listened yet, but based on the title and as a former tbm..... YES. ABSOLUTELY YES. We are raised KNOWING we're the only people on earth with 100% of the TRUTH, the WHOLE truth, and nothing but the truth.... PLUS, clearly, we're the CHOSEN generation before the coming of the Lord, and only WE will survive that day.... so DUH, we're clearly the best. I'm so glad you guys are finally acknowledging how clearly chosen, precious, and "in the world but NOT of the world " we are. Thank you, finally, thank you. I'm so glad you guys get it.
This episode is wonderful. Dr. John is so fired up by the simple fact that All Human Kind can teach us so much... Beautiful and Lovely. I ended listening with A Giant Smile on my face. Thank You ❤🙏❤🥳🥳🥳
John Dehlin that was brilliant- your rant on Mormon superiority and certainty is so profound and inspiring …thank you John d, John l , and cara b - this episode is epically awesome
The abuses of the church combined with other things growing up, have torn my life apart. I have always been taught how unimportant I am. Today I still feel like I have no purpose to be here. I ask God to tell me why, to receive no answer except in dreams. I am not sure why I am here anymore except to be subservant to a husband that deserted me.
thank you John ----as being the only Mormon kid in high school in southern Alberta small town--I was SO embarrassed to think my friends may feel I had that attitude of superiority(I didn't)-----I quit 35 years ago and listen to these podcasts which have helped me so much as in my day there was NO place to go for understanding---thank you both Johns and Carah
So the church leaders taught that the reason there is dark and light skin is because of righteousness in the pre-existence. So then if we had agency before, then we didn’t need to come to earth to prove our righteousness with agency. The only point would have been to get a body. But if Heavenly Father and mother were once mortals like us, got bodies, then were exalted and have their own posterity… then physical bodies that reproduce make physical bodies, not spirit bodies. So how can HF have a body, but yet create us with spirits only? That might sound legit if there isn’t a Heavenly Mother. Walking in circles here
Omg, new favorite Mormon stories episode. Never watched any of the previous episodes with John Larson, but this was so refreshing and interesting! 10/10
Oh, how much I loved John Dehlins last words!! I am an ex Mormons i learned so much from this episode of Why Mormons Feel Superiors to Others. Thanks so much from Switzerland 🇨🇭
Mormonism is very visible in Australia. The irreverent among us joke that maybe we'll steal their bikes. It is good to hear concepts like "Prosperity Gospel", "American Exceptionalism", "Mormonist Superiority" and the sheer irrationality of "The Mormon Story" being discussed here. My brother and sister-in-law were mormons. SIL grew up as a mormon, but my BIL converted as an adult prior to marriage. My BIL was the worst kind of convert - fanatical, dogmatic, bombastic. His whole family - including his brother (my husband) and I - became his selling targets. Everything from mormonism to whatever MLM product they were featuring. Thus all relationships were transactional. He was infuriated by my questions about all these things, seeking to brow beat me. On questioning what was in a cleaning product that was capable of stripping a coin back to sparkling new, he informed me that as a housewife I didn't need to know what was in it, only that it worked. He identified me as his nemesis, and bullied me mercilessly. Of course he was going to "live the Australian dream" with all his schemes. Later, as an Elder, he was kicked out of the "church" for having an affair with another Elder's wife. He, his wife and 4 children ended up living in a converted bus (nothing wrong with that if you want to travel around Australia), but a real comedown from the McMansion he had been building. His latest "belief" being that he had a "foolproof" way to win on the horses. "Foolish" is what I used to say.
That whole Saturday’s Warrior thing is so wildly comical. I was with my earthly family in the pre existence? Like, my parents…was I a child with them? I have kids of my own now…was I the parent of them or was I a child when my parents saw me and an adult when my children saw me? And then like all of my ancestors going back to Adam and Eve…means we are all related. Were we just all adult spirits in one big group home? It all falls apart when you go even half a layer deep. This was always something I questioned growing up. Everyone just told me we didn’t have the answers and god knew what he was doing. That clever dude.
Sweetie....even non LDS members believe this. The Bible says we were with God from the beginning. If you don't think you were alive before you came to this Earth....you need some revelation. We are all ANCIENT
I love Tudor history but what the hell does Henry 8th have to do with Morman do trine? I know if he claimed his earthly wives in the hereafter they'd be running back to earth😂😂😂
I really want a blended family podcast with an ex mormon bio mom worrying about thier child being raised in the church against our will but we feel we have to deal with it for fear of custody. Please reach out to people like me and this. We really need guidance from the hurt the church can do our children.
I'll second your request. As a single parent and custody is a very serious matter. We both want what's best for our children. Moms best is wanting them to have religion, good morals, live by the 10 commandments and dad's family is into the unity church. Rock bands, coffee and a danish after church or even a brunch after church. Help us
Great comment by Carah about not being allowed to questions. As a convert at age 12, I had some questions. In Young Womens and Seminary, I tried asking questions a few times…..just to learn more about the religion. I thought we were there to learn (like in school). But my questions were always met by the feeling that I was doing something wrong to ask questions. Either the other kids would snicker or the teacher/leader would tell me “Just pray”. I prayed so much as a teen but never got any answers. Anyway, I ‘ll never forget that feeling that my questions were not welcome. I quickly learned to keep my mouth shut (I only tried asking questions a few times). By age 16 and a half, I had quit the church.
I'm sad that I'm "late" to this podcast: Carah's quips and wisdom are always great; John Larsen"s passion and logic are always superb; but John Dehlin is ON FIRE! No sobering devil's advocate for this one JD...Wowza. LOVE it! Excellent episode!
My seminary teacher was the son of ETB. He taught us crazy stuff. He also said I would be his plural wife when the church brings back polygamy! 🤦🏻♀️ He was said this a while after high school.
How can someone say they believe in Jesus' teachings and think they're better/superior to other people? Why would they want to keep family from attending their wedding? How can they be okay with all the temples and wealth? It doesn't follow what Jesus taught at all.
I know that John intentionally doesn’t let his anger flair up very often (and I completely understand the reasoning for that). But damn, that rant at the end there was magnificent. Beautifully put, sir
Unfortunately where I grew up in the RLDS church… we also “secretly “ felt superior….we had the “ only right answers”…..especially compared to the Mormon church. We tended to think that they had things even More wrong than other churches… and we had things so much More right than they did…totally looked down on the Mainstream Mormons……
This is hands down, the best final rant in any MS podcast to date. Thank you, John Dehlin. I’ve rewatched the final 24 ish minutes of this episode three times. I’m obsessed. ❤❤❤ thank you!
Ridiculous to believe: God will make your skin darker the more you sin and the dark skin sinner will never make it to the highest celestial plane like the light skinned people. (My wife says if she'd read this, she wouldn't have been baptized.)
Another fabulous comment by John D. about everyone we meet is a brother/sister and we can learn from them…..no matter who they are. Yes, it does open our minds when we feel that way, compared to the superiority complex that actually narrows our minds.
Before I watch this, I want to say the reason I could not contemplate converting was their belief that my salvation wasn't valid. Spiritual superiority is off putting.
John dehlin really popped off with this one. I loved the talk about inferior exmos, and about humanity being my teacher. Both of those experiences have been huge in my life
Sad!! I’m a newish mom- my kid is 5 and trick or treating is just starting to be something he is getting excited about and wanting to do activities. The last couple of years,was disappointing for him and I couldn’t figure out why there were so little kids participating … now I know- the wards do trunk or treats for their neighborhood!! I had no idea until listening to this why UT sucked so bad at Halloween nowadays… Makes my heartbreak for all the littles out there.
I highly anticipate every John Larsen Carah Burrell teamup episode. Great one To add onto "women's work" that comes even more strongly from racialized labour. Domestic and manual labour were relegated to slaves and then disproportionately impoverished racial minorities. So that threads right into how the domestic labour women disproportionately perform as less valuable and less respected.
It cracks me up that as exmo's people know the mormon scriptures better and have the need to recall and explain them more fully than they ever did as TBMs. The only scriptures you focus on in church are singled-out/cherry picked limited sections--you would never read every chapter and in full context. Plenty of OFF LIMIT discussions for the church "with all the answers"...lol. You really have to teach mormons about mormonism before you can have a rational discussion with them.
Good show tonight! John Dehlins last rant def needs to be a short, I'm going to listen to the whole show again! (Quote of the month: "Keeps us tiny in a box of ignorance-John Dehlin"
During a period of my life, I had several LDS friends, and always felt they had an attitude of superiority, it must go along with being brain-washed which was the first thing I noticed. Membership of the LDS Church is like having an insurance policy which covers every aspect of one's life, which is the positive side. This only works if one has a high tolerance for being obedient, non-thinking, and believing hogwash that cannot possibly be true. One friend claimed that unlike the RC Church the LDS Church never had a problem with the sexual abuse of children. It never occurred to her that perhaps the church was wealthy enough to pay-off anyone who dares to complain. And, of course such things never happen in a superior organization. LOL
@sjordan. 1.13.24. Rewatched episode today and found your comment re. sexual abuse. LOOK AT THE SEWAGE that has slipped over the dam since this cast!!! We know, however, that momoism is - AT ITS CORE - based in - and built upon STRATEGIC UNTRUTHFULNESS and its "leaders" (on the very account of this "superiority" complex) refuse to abide by ANY reasonable morality, ANY law of any land (once they have licked boots to gain their way in, thereafter to reveal themselves blatantly as Smaug), or the very "laws" they have created ongoing for their subservient membership. They will not pay one penny except to judges and powers (even when THAT cost is 10 times what they would rightly be required to recompense the truly irremedial damages caused to victims first by the immediate abuser and then compounded at least 3 times by "church" complicity in this crime against the souls, minds, and lives of the those victims. And the abuses so far revealed surmount in number and in vileness probably all we have learned of other churches combined.
This was very eye-opening and humbling for me. I was in a very abusive marriage for 17 years and when my ex and I sold our house, I walked away with a little chunk of change that I was able to buy a couple acres of land and put a cabin on it and I really believe that’s my karma for having to put up with his abuse for 17 years. And that’s obviously not necessarily true Lol. Thanks for such great content💜💜
I was raised on Mormon musicals. Most people mention Saturday's Warrior. A few people mention My Turn On Earth. I don't think I have ever heard anyone mention Star Child outside of my family! I loved the music, and the song "Within Me" helped shape the person I am today. I have even read the book and sheet music, and in fact, still own it. (It has been years since I read it) My user name comes from that play and I have had it since high school (I am 42). John, you have earned a level of respect in regards to musicals that I do not give out lightly!!
A saying of Jesus.... The Parable of the Guests 7When Jesus noticed how the guests chose the places of honor, He told them a parable: 8“When you are invited to a wedding banquet, do not sit in the place of honor, in case someone more distinguished than you has been invited. 9Then the host who invited both of you will come and tell you, ‘Give this man your seat.’ And in humiliation, you will have to take the last place.…
I found it ironic that J Larsen used teachers as an example of a people or profession who suffer as a result of meritocracy. Speaking as a teacher, who loves her job, I say teachers are amongst the worse when believing they are superior. Break down a teachers salary, most teachers work 189 days a year. Most earn around $35 - $50 per hour. So yes they don’t get paid for holidays, they don’t get overtime. But most salaried professionals do not make overtime, many professionals bring work home and many professionals work outside of contracted hours. Many teachers believe they deserve higher wages due to their superior knowledge and many look down on tradesmen and anyone who did not attend university and earns more money than them. Ask a custodian who works in a school and ask how they are treated by some teachers. Ask an honest teacher how some teachers talk about parents who hold hourly jobs and especially jobs in food service, hospitality, etc. Many teachers believe they are superior and deserving of a higher salary. Teachers are not helpless victims and many need to step down off their pedestals and realize they are not helpless victims. And those who wish to argue this point, find me another profession where you can earn a living wage and only work 189 days out of the year, and still receive sick days and personal days too. We all make choices. I chose to be a teacher because I love my subject and I enjoy talking about my subject every day. It is fun and if I want to make more money I can find position that pays more, but I am confident I will be working way more than 189 days a year, I most likely won’t get 2 weeks off for Christmas, and I would most likely receive 2 weeks paid vacation. Just saying most teachers believe they are superior and deserving of more money because they are so educated, despite the fact that every teacher made a choice to be a teacher.
born in 54’ david o’mckay was end times. fortunately we lived in so cal, movie stars etc, in the church. a bishop i didn’t even know came to visit me in the orange co, cali jail. he told me to be the best, gangster whatever. we were progressive before it was a thing. put me on mormon stories.
I was born to converted parents. My father is heritage is from Britain and mother is Indigenous Canadian or "Indian". My parents married in the temple and we went to church diligently, paid tithing, supported three missionaries. As a child, I had this shame about myself, my lineage, my skin colour, my weight, my appearance, and members felt it was their right to shame me. I felt like an outsider and never good enough so I challenge this religion. So then parents began to shame me. But thank you for providing a forum to us to bring context to our childhood traumas. In some way, your helping me and people like me heal. Thank you.
You are all one in Christ Jesus,Paul didnt like himself as a murderer,1Timothy 1:13-16,but hey Jesus never died for whites only John3:16&36/5:24/10:28 Acts4:12/1Timothy2:5/COLOSSIANS2:14 BLESS U,FROM ANOTHER CANUCK!😊
When a group of people believe they are superior to other people, such belief means that those who believe they are superior can do anything they want to people who are believed to be inferior.
I find any superiority they believe they have as a joke. Having grown up in the Detroit area, I find people in SLC/Utah as very passive aggressive and gullible. So if the local LDS here are trying to come off as superior, it isn't working for them. Also, the LDS culture is very uneducated on other religions so in order to be superior, you gotta kind of have a background in theology. I would venture to say that a Rabbi or Priest would tear any LDS member a new one when it comes to theology.
At 43:00 ish, there is so much double talk in the BOM where on one hand the Lord is no respecter of persons and all are alike unto him, but then he also has a chosen people? The chosen race? How does that work?
If I was thumbing through a list of travel destinations, I could not pay enough for the experience of "Travel the the PNW, take bong rips, and become enlightened with John Larsen." That is an excursion worth tens of thousands of dollars if I had them.
“False pride refers to an inflated sense of self-importance and achievement that is not rooted in genuine accomplishments or characteristics. It is a form of arrogance that involves displaying an exaggerated perception of one's abilities, possessions, or social status, often done to mask insecurities or gain validation from others. False pride can lead individuals to engage in self-aggrandizing behaviors, such as boasting, bragging, or belittling others, and can hinder self-awareness and personal growth. Unlike genuine pride, which stems from legitimate accomplishments and positive attributes, false pride is characterized by its superficiality and lack of substance.”
THANK YOU SO MUCH for bringing up the Palestinian apartheid. I know is not the main topic of the conversation but it’s often forgotten, and not many people know about it
I had missionaries come to my door and they told me to pray to God to give me scripture from the Book of Mormon to let me know it’s all true. I did it and closed my eyes and randomly flipped to a page and still with my eyes closed put my finger on some scripture. I landed on those exact scriptures about how God will make your skin darker the more you sin and the dark skin sinner will never make it to the highest celestial plane like the light skin people. We’ll as a mother of 3 Hispanic brown skin children. (I am white) I was livid! I ask the missionaries what the hell does this mean? That I could go the the highest celestial plane but my kids can’t because the color of their skin!!!!??. They told me to not pay too much attention to that, that I need to read the whole Book of Mormon to understand. I asked them to leave.
❤ thank you
Oh, I love to watch missionaries squirm on the subject of racism in church doctrine.
That actually wasn’t the end of it. I told them I had no intention of being Mormon but they were welcome to come on their off day and play video games with my kids, Drink coke and watch R rated movies. (My sister is Mormon and I knew they couldn’t do any of that on their mission). They came once a week for a month and had a blast! ( I know, I’m going to Mormon hell for that. Lol)
Awesome!!!!!
@@gail995 the missionaries in my ward as a kid in Arizona would come over and play Doom on the PlayStation for hours at a time. Good for them. It was 115 degrees outside
I've never felt "the spirit" i.e. elevation emotion so strongly as I did when John Dehlin ranted about how leaving the church connects us to humanity 😭❤
Awoman.
You trust your soul to Dehlin? Is that wise?
@@jeffwilson4693 I don't believe my soul needs to be trusted to anyone or anything.
@@chrewtransformation Ah, you must be God.
@@jeffwilson4693 I AM
As a fundamentalist evangelical, I felt pretty superior (especially to Mormons😅) until I had an encounter with a Muslim on a bus on the way to work at the Bible College where I was teaching at the time. This young Pakistaní guy invited me to his apartment for a discussion. I saw this as an opportunity to witness to lost Muslims and readily accepted the invitation. I arrived at the apartment and engaged in a discussion that lasted a couple of hours. The leader of the discussion was an older Egyptian gentleman who knew the New Testament way better than I did. He peppered me with questions about discrepancies in the text, and I had no way to respond because most of the examples he cited were absolutely accurate, and well known to scholars of lots of different faiths including Christianity. I learned that the New Testament was far more complex and interesting than I previously imagined, as well as humbling. The discussion spurred my deconstruction away from Fundamentalism towards a more nuanced faith. I owe those Muslims a debt of gratitude.
Galatians 3:28 (NIV):
"There is neither Jew nor Gentile, neither slave nor free, nor is there male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus."
You shouldn’t feel superior to anyone. All are one in Christ.
You needed to have practised 1Peter3:15
We evangelicals dont have the answers but Jesus calls us to love John15&16,why would you deconstruct that to jihad a pillar of islam you missed...however DO AGREE WITH HAVE ALOT OF WAY TOO MANY ARROGANT MEMBERS TOTALLY UNAWARE OF GALATIANS6:1-2/ROMANS12:1-3😊
John D, your rants tonight were absolutely incredible! I need to express how much I agree with what you said in those powerful few minutes. I had no idea how much more love and less judgment I would feel for people even just one year out. I believe much more today than I ever did as a Mormon that we’re all the equivalent of brothers and sisters with how we should treat each other. Amen to everything you said-joining the rest of humanity makes it impossible to go backwards into that silent and unspoken judgment i harbored because of the teachings of the Church.
And I love John Larsen’s comments about the Church and prosperity gospel. He’s absolutely right and it’s one of the reasons we see such bad financial action in Utah-the superiority bred into people makes them believe that the rules do not apply to them because of how special and chosen they are.
Thanks to all three of you for bringing the fire tonight!
Great comment! I'm just an outsider looking in. Truly fascinating conversation. I wonder how Mormons would fare if their religious foundation fell to the ground. How would they fare in a non-Mormon world?
Came here to say the same. Mic drop John D! 🎤
When I left Mormonism, some of my family shunned me. No matter what I do in my life and how successful I am, some of them treat me like they pity me and don’t want to be around me.
Mine too. I see their looks of pity. It puts yet another barrier between us.
It's their loss, not your's. You are able to think for yourself by using your brain. They are just like sheep, being told what do do. They are the poor souls who follow a lunatic cult.
Sounds like fear. If they are too kind to an "apostate" their God might think less of them.
They are the ones to be pitied. They've been led astray by a wolf in sheep's clothing
the Mormon church will go extinct within our lifetimes, as per statistics provided by the LDS
Not me I grew up Greek Orthodox in a all white Mormon neighborhood I always watched Mormons treat me like I was nothing just because I couldn’t be part af the “true religion”. Thanks guys!
I grew up Mormon and now attend a Greek Orthodox Church. I’ll let you take a guess which is better.
One question, which of the two church’s feel like a church? The one you can scream in, play sports, run around laughing with colorless walls and no less then 2 basket ball hoops Sports, tournaments for every kind of occasion and last but not least the place where teenagers can dance (as long as there is a space the size of the Book of Mormon between them) or
The Greek Orthodox Church.
( full disclosure I’m now an atheist )
Maybe it’s just me, but in a church, I prefer the smell of incense over teenage gym sweat.
My hometown was supposedly 98% LDS, and it was the most elitist place I've ever known. While I did meet some really kind and awesome LDS people there, it was much more the norm to act entitled, intolerant, dogmatic, and narcissistic. I'm so grateful I never fit in. I could've easily turned into an asshole had I been popular or powerful in such a toxic environment. Yes, it sucked to be bullied and shunned by fellow Mormons, but it made me question my entire identity and world view. Ultimately, being labeled as a "freak" opened up the door for me to figure out who I truly am. And being rejected by my own group taught me how to find real community and connection with people from around the world. As an Ex-Mormon, I'm now the happiest and healthiest I've ever been. I'm so glad I was never "good enough" to be Mormon!
I've lived in predominantly (small) Mormon communities for about the last 22 years, boy, you hit the nail on the head. "Entitled", "intolerant", "narcissistic", bully mentality are so accurate. You forgot OMNISCIENT! For a bunch of brainwashed, manipulated/controlled, FLEECED cultists, they sure do know it all; hubris for days and days. I must credit those who devised such an astonishingly effective, self perpetuating scheme as the Mormon cult. However, I give even more credit to anyone who was born into it, that sees it for what it really is, and breaks free of its spell. Now we all need to do the same about NWO.
1Peter3:15/Romans 5&8😊
I was LDS for 20 years with a temple marriage and 4 children. I left because being a stay home Mom I opted to work from home. Each week about 15 kids came through my in home daycare. I had about 3 Church callings. Someone from the pulpit would speak to how we couldn't obtain the Celestial Kingdom unless we did such and so. Temple work, missionary work, genealogy, etc. etc. "I'm good enough!!!" My inside voice said!
You can’t do it all. I hear you. They used to push so hard on everything. Being a parent is hard enough.
John D’s last rant about discovering that people don’t all need what I’m peddling is the discovery I made on my mission that made the biggest difference in my experience. Thanks for putting words to my feelings John :)
Given that Mormonism was born in the United States, I think it's difficult to fully separate Mormon superiority from the narrative of U.S. exceptionalism as a whole. Although it seems to be far less common in younger generations of Americans, there still exists a massive cultural bias of many Americans thinking of themselves as superior to all other nations and cultures. My fiance is American and I am from New Zealand, which is where we have chosen to settle. Despite living in NZ for years, we still get subjected to pretty insulting lines of questioning over how we could possibly want to live 'at the end of the earth' instead of in the U.S. It seems to stem from the idea that it's a universally held truth that every other country in the world is in some way inferior, even as greater numbers of Americans are openly criticizing their political system, gun culture, healthcare system, etc.
I served my mission in New Zealand. Beautiful people and culture.
That’s amazing you are living in New Zealand, always follow that gut instinct 💚
@@jasonshults368 They didn't. They live in New Zealand. Learn how to read.
@@denz4133 If I didn't feel an irrational attachment to my American ancestors and I wasn't old now, I would be happy to live in NZ. It is beautiful and the people are lovely.
@@denz4133 If I didn't feel an irrational attachment to my American ancestors and I wasn't old now, I would be happy to live in NZ. It is beautiful and the people are lovely.
Wow, Dr. John! As a Christian who has been deconstructing for a while now, I have NEVER heard anyone say it better! The burden of superiority thinking. How dare we? Lessons and discovery of humanity are everywhere if we pay attention.
I’ve heard several Christians in YT comments saying they are deconstructing. Are you deconstructing Christianity? What does that mean?
@@christistruth705 en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Faith_deconstruction#:~:text=Faith%20deconstruction%2C%20also%20known%20as,result%20in%20a%20stronger%20faith.
I will never forget the moment (for me, 10th grade) when I realized with full clarity that the good guys don't win wars because they're good -- they are considered good because they won. It's so so so so obvious, but when I really understood it all the way through, it changed the way I saw everything.
I completely agree. ❤️
Yep, the victors write the history books.
I finally got the chance to listen to this episode. And, boy! You did not disappoint! I was born in 1957 and grew up being told (and firmly believing) all the “we are the chosen,” “America is blessed and was given to us,” “we are just the best people,” crap.
While at BYU a leader in a women’s meeting talked about how we were foreordained for greatness and all the angels in heaven looked at us with reverence because we were born in the 1950s and 1960s. 😳 We were saved for the last days. So then our children were even more blessed.
It was just pounded into Church members that we were the elect. We belonged to the ONLY true church. We were superior either because we were more valiant in the pre-existence or we accepted the Church after we were born.
Then we moved to Los Angeles. I worked for a CPA firm where most of the partners were Jewish. I’ve never been judgmental. But I admit to being surprised at the high caliber of these Jewish folks! My boss was a wonderful guy. I also worked and was neighbors with people of many different faiths. And they were moral and kind people.
About that time the knowledge that you don’t have to be Mormon to be “good” was planted in my brain. It was this knowledge that grew to my eventual apostasy. Also being exposed to several Church members who were not necessarily “good.” And, in LA as well as Colorado I met people who are gay that were truly wonderful people. Go figure.
When I gained the ability to see through the LDS lies and notice how things were geared toward men and being made to feel like I was horrible because I was a working mother. I didn’t have the strength to follow the Prophet and stop working. Well, yeah, how else were we to pay our bills?! And …I read No Man Knows My History. Eye opener.
When I quit attending Church and started making it known to others all my LDS friends were so sad 😢, and shocked 😮, and wondered why? I remember telling one close friend that I thought the Church was very elitest and judgmental. She thought that was so strange.
Thanks for this episode with the two John’s and Carah. The dynamic trio! So intelligent and articulate. You are all spot on! 🎯🎯🎯
Yes, the three of them together are a dynamic combination!
I love John Dehlin. “The world becomes a beautiful university of truth and learning.”
I grew up in Texas with a ward that had its founding members from Utah (1970s). I recall being made to feel that “mission field” wards were the step child to the very worthy wards of Utah that had “revered and honored” pioneer blood stock.
I flew to visit Utah at 12, alone, to visit a friend who had moved to SLC. She wasn’t mormon. At 12, I walked alone to church. Sat in sacrament alone. Found my age group classes alone. Not one single person spoke to me.
I left realizing that the sacred stock of Utah weren’t all they said they were (holier than the rest of us).
As an adult in the 1990s I went back to Utah for a visit. When I experienced the same coldness at church and the extreme aggression on the roads, I realized the same thing again. I lived all over the USA and Europe with the military, Utah had the most hateful drivers, right under NY/NJ cabbies.
What does being a bad driver have to do with being Mormon?
@@hoorayitsjackie6166there's bad driving, and there's selfish/angry/me,me,me driving.....the later is what you get in UT, esp in UT county.
Sadly in 2023, they haven't changed. Eternal progression must start in the next life for them.
Dude! That Salt Lake Valley, Mormon road rage driving is definitely a thing, "extreme aggression on the roads" is so spot-on! IMO, it's that Mormon motorhead, elitist, entitlement, Grand Poobah (or whatever goofy self-inflated, status they think they have) on wheels mentality. A non-Mo friend of mine once wrote a hardcore punk rock song entitled "Driving Like a Mormon".
I had to send an email to my TBM sister this weekend that literally said don't pity me and to cease contact with me for a while due to this problem. Another email from a TBM brother months ago was very similar. The superiority complex is so deep and real that I will never be as "good" as they are. My TBM mom is a whole other level of righteous.
No one is better than another. We have individual issues. We can fix those issues if we work deep within ourselves. If we then come together, we may be able to solve some of the real problems the world is facing. It will never happen as long as there are so many who have these big egos and think they are better than everyone else.
You three together are always so good! Thanks for these amazing discussions!!! ❤❤
John, your sharing at the end of this episode was so powerful, the beauty of knowing that it’s okay to be human just like everyone else, to feel connected to others of all races and creeds. That is a beautiful thing, your testimony was so heartfelt it brought tears to my eyes.
So many times John can string together thoughts that are worthy of quoting on a gravestone. So awesome.
John Dehlin, you outdid yourself!
Chapeau!
I’ve literally been out for like a month and I’ve never felt so average and less superior because of how much I’ve been awakened to this
It feels like we can be more fully a part of humanity & can be a normal part of the world surrounding us & it feels great to be "normal" & more inclusive of others!
The superiority was never real though.. the world in front of you now is the real stuff.
Do they not realize that the entire rest of the world makes fun of them?
@@latter-daydiscussions4289 yea, yea I was. I have a lot of instances where I was told VERY explicitly that I was meant to be a “leader of men” not only in my patriarchal blessing but also just by leaders and my parents. Unlearning that and realizing that I’m literally just an average person was a HUGE step back for my faith.
John Dehlin, I stood up and clapped when you finished your final points about learning from everyone and breaking the bonds of Mormonism. You at your absolute best!!! Thanks to each of you for this work.
As a convert to the Church and faithful as I could be...I wasn't invited to the minor social events like Tupperware parties. Those were the "Lifer Mormons!" They were the wives of Bishops, etc. Mormons that had bloodlines. Trusted Mormons. I couldn't measure up in this lifetime...
1:39:05 othering exmormons - you definitely can not leave Mormonism with your dignity. A huge red flag and definitely a sign of an unhealthy group. I have been Disowned by my parents, as a 40 year old mother of 4. My kids dont have grandparents and we have lost every close family relationship with ever member of the Church. and I still don't regret learning the truth and being able to live without the fear of a racist, homophobic, sexist god. ❤❤❤
John, you nailed it. After two years as a professor teaching in Utah County - I had never felt so isolated, alienated, or abandoned. The students - were excellent, outstanding, inquisitive - always at the ready with uplifting discussions. But Mormons I met in the Wild - were on occasion more eager to make a convert than a friend. And the Mormon Superiority was an unusual flavor. These folks are pretending to know more than me about something arcane or mystical - and even go so far as to send twenty-year-old "elders" to my doorstep to expound this tale of mirth, woe, and imaginary revelation? It doesn't appeal to how I feel. As a Blue-Collar Raised Catholic from the Midwest, I've already got a truckload of arcane and mystical (2000 years' worth), coupled with common sense - the kind you need to get along with everyone on a Midwest job site - no matter where they are from and what denomination. Ohioans don't take kindly to Holier than Thous. I'm actually kind of surprised that while Jo Jo Smith Junior was in Kirtland, tripping on "only my ideas matter" he didn't get his ass kicked. (Well, maybe he did, but he didn't write about it).
@coco and @rugby,
Thank you. On my best day, I don't hold any particular hatred for anyone.... I simply wrote based on some painful personal experiences. And I agree that freedom to worship is a very essential freedom, likely the most important one of all
This is a key BIG picture view of Mormonism. The concepts of elitism and superiority are BAKED in to church doctrine.
Scientology does the same thing.. it's part of the mental manipulation to make someone feel elite and self righteous and turn off their brains to any critical thinking that makes that pedestal they put themselves on wobble.
All's I can say is that I'm glad John Larson is a force for good in the world.
Thank you Carah for reminding us that we do ALL of THIS so we can grow spiritually for real. ❤️❤️❤️
John D, you were SPOT ON!!! This is a fabulous episode from all 3 of you!
Dude…I’m in awe at the Johns AND Cara throwing down today! Wow! Some mega ultra neutron bombs of truth and wisdom!
"...you get to enter the human race as a fellow citizen." This is so well put, John D. What an amazing opportunity for all of us to connect with others and learn from them.
Always hated it being referred to as "THE" Church - as if everyone in the world knew what church it was. What makes being LDS so superior to everyone else? Great program!
This topic is excellent, and needs much discussion. Thanks for opening it up on your podcast, John. I hope it will receive a lot more examination, maybe in other exmo venues.
This is one of the realizations that brought me out of faith in Mormonism. Realizing just how completely the church indoctrinates it’s members with this belief that Mormons are somehow innately, not just superior, but genuinely more “human” in a sense, than the rest of humanity. “We are the People, everyone else is The World”, is a real, but invisible tenet of Mormon faith mentality. It is SO seamlessly woven into the fabric of Mormon identity. It’s so invisible.
Even after seeing it, I wasn’t aware for years of just how it was still embedded in my sense of myself, until one day, around the time I officially left the church. I was sitting in my car after having parked in a store lot, looking around for a moment at all the other shoppers going in and out, it came over me; this profound sense of being just one of the humans, among all the other humans. Just an ordinary, garden variety human. I felt real in a way that I had not realized that I did not feel, until that moment. It was such a healing, incredible sensation, re joining my humanity as part of the human family. I sat there and soaked that feeling in, and wept a little. It was like coming home after a long, cold journey of isolation and loneliness. And I’d had no idea I was so cut off, until I finally experienced the reconnection.
Thank you for sharing. I experienced this same thing over and over (also at stores with other shoppers) after going through a period of intense stress which brought up a lot of questions I didn't realize I had. I felt like I was rejoining humanity as I realized this faith was not even something that I could realistically live up to (no one can). I also never realized there was any disconnect between me and the rest of humanity. A truly beautiful experience. I had longed for so long just to be a person like everyone else in the world. Such a relief. Painful (in certain ways), comforting and so beautiful.
Wow. My story is very similar. Thanks for your words.
Atheist here...thank you for your kind words and understanding...As an Atheist I find my truths everywhere...which is why I listen to your wonderful podcast...I was born into a Mormon family, my great grandma was a born into a polygamous family. I did not know that until well after she had passed away...my Mormon family is why I became a non-mormon and eventually an Atheist.
Lots of ex Mormons are atheist. Satanic cult will do that
Sad throwing out the biblical baby with the bathwater,see my comment just before this.
God still loves u inspite of your label😅
Haven't even listened yet, but based on the title and as a former tbm..... YES. ABSOLUTELY YES. We are raised KNOWING we're the only people on earth with 100% of the TRUTH, the WHOLE truth, and nothing but the truth.... PLUS, clearly, we're the CHOSEN generation before the coming of the Lord, and only WE will survive that day.... so DUH, we're clearly the best. I'm so glad you guys are finally acknowledging how clearly chosen, precious, and "in the world but NOT of the world " we are. Thank you, finally, thank you. I'm so glad you guys get it.
I hope you are being humorous. Truth is a Person and not a doctrine my friend.
This episode is wonderful. Dr. John is so fired up by the simple fact that All Human Kind can teach us so much... Beautiful and Lovely. I ended listening with A Giant Smile on my face. Thank You ❤🙏❤🥳🥳🥳
John Dehlin that was brilliant- your rant on Mormon superiority and certainty is so profound and inspiring …thank you John d, John l , and cara b - this episode is epically awesome
The abuses of the church combined with other things growing up, have torn my life apart. I have always been taught how unimportant I am.
Today I still feel like I have no purpose to be here. I ask God to tell me why, to receive no answer except in dreams.
I am not sure why I am here anymore except to be subservant to a husband that deserted me.
Thank you, Carah for bringing up the Palestinian diaspora. ❤
thank you John ----as being the only Mormon kid in high school in southern Alberta small town--I was SO embarrassed to think my friends may feel I had that attitude of superiority(I didn't)-----I quit 35 years ago and listen to these podcasts which have helped me so much as in my day there was NO place to go for understanding---thank you both Johns and Carah
WOW at the end John sounded like John WOW. Even Cara had her moments - so clear
Gosh I love it when John D gets passionate!
So the church leaders taught that the reason there is dark and light skin is because of righteousness in the pre-existence. So then if we had agency before, then we didn’t need to come to earth to prove our righteousness with agency. The only point would have been to get a body. But if Heavenly Father and mother were once mortals like us, got bodies, then were exalted and have their own posterity… then physical bodies that reproduce make physical bodies, not spirit bodies. So how can HF have a body, but yet create us with spirits only? That might sound legit if there isn’t a Heavenly Mother. Walking in circles here
Omg, new favorite Mormon stories episode. Never watched any of the previous episodes with John Larson, but this was so refreshing and interesting! 10/10
Love Carah, as always- love the spiciness and wit she brings. ❤
Oh, how much I loved John Dehlins last words!! I am an ex Mormons i learned so much from this episode of Why Mormons Feel Superiors to Others. Thanks so much from Switzerland 🇨🇭
AMEN, John Dehlin! And another immediately, John Larsen! Thank you, Carah , for your punches. BEST EVER pod.
Y'all made me weep: with RELIEF; with HOPE; with luxurious OUTRAGE; and JOY.
Write this soliloquy and publish it!!!! So true!
Mormonism is very visible in Australia. The irreverent among us joke that maybe we'll steal their bikes. It is good to hear concepts like "Prosperity Gospel", "American Exceptionalism", "Mormonist Superiority" and the sheer irrationality of "The Mormon Story" being discussed here. My brother and sister-in-law were mormons. SIL grew up as a mormon, but my BIL converted as an adult prior to marriage.
My BIL was the worst kind of convert - fanatical, dogmatic, bombastic. His whole family - including his brother (my husband) and I - became his selling targets. Everything from mormonism to whatever MLM product they were featuring. Thus all relationships were transactional. He was infuriated by my questions about all these things, seeking to brow beat me. On questioning what was in a cleaning product that was capable of stripping a coin back to sparkling new, he informed me that as a housewife I didn't need to know what was in it, only that it worked. He identified me as his nemesis, and bullied me mercilessly.
Of course he was going to "live the Australian dream" with all his schemes. Later, as an Elder, he was kicked out of the "church" for having an affair with another Elder's wife. He, his wife and 4 children ended up living in a converted bus (nothing wrong with that if you want to travel around Australia), but a real comedown from the McMansion he had been building. His latest "belief" being that he had a "foolproof" way to win on the horses. "Foolish" is what I used to say.
That whole Saturday’s Warrior thing is so wildly comical. I was with my earthly family in the pre existence? Like, my parents…was I a child with them? I have kids of my own now…was I the parent of them or was I a child when my parents saw me and an adult when my children saw me? And then like all of my ancestors going back to Adam and Eve…means we are all related. Were we just all adult spirits in one big group home?
It all falls apart when you go even half a layer deep. This was always something I questioned growing up. Everyone just told me we didn’t have the answers and god knew what he was doing. That clever dude.
Sweetie....even non LDS members believe this. The Bible says we were with God from the beginning. If you don't think you were alive before you came to this Earth....you need some revelation. We are all ANCIENT
Henry VIII had two wives beheaded
1 divorced
2 beheaded
3 died after childbirth
4 divorced ( too ugly)
5 beheaded
6 survived
Joseph smith banged a maid in the barn he wasn't married to at all.
Thank you! I was going to comment on that too, but now don't need to.
I love Tudor history but what the hell does Henry 8th have to do with Morman do trine? I know if he claimed his earthly wives in the hereafter they'd be running back to earth😂😂😂
I really want a blended family podcast with an ex mormon bio mom worrying about thier child being raised in the church against our will but we feel we have to deal with it for fear of custody. Please reach out to people like me and this. We really need guidance from the hurt the church can do our children.
I'll second your request. As a single parent and custody is a very serious matter. We both want what's best for our children. Moms best is wanting them to have religion, good morals, live by the 10 commandments and dad's family is into the unity church. Rock bands, coffee and a danish after church or even a brunch after church. Help us
Great comment by Carah about not being allowed to questions. As a convert at age 12, I had some questions. In Young Womens and Seminary, I tried asking questions a few times…..just to learn more about the religion. I thought we were there to learn (like in school). But my questions were always met by the feeling that I was doing something wrong to ask questions. Either the other kids would snicker or the teacher/leader would tell me “Just pray”. I prayed so much as a teen but never got any answers. Anyway, I ‘ll never forget that feeling that my questions were not welcome. I quickly learned to keep my mouth shut (I only tried asking questions a few times). By age 16 and a half, I had quit the church.
I'm sad that I'm "late" to this podcast: Carah's quips and wisdom are always great; John Larsen"s passion and logic are always superb; but John Dehlin is ON FIRE! No sobering devil's advocate for this one JD...Wowza. LOVE it! Excellent episode!
My seminary teacher was the son of ETB. He taught us crazy stuff. He also said I would be his plural wife when the church brings back polygamy! 🤦🏻♀️ He was said this a while after high school.
How can someone say they believe in Jesus' teachings and think they're better/superior to other people? Why would they want to keep family from attending their wedding? How can they be okay with all the temples and wealth? It doesn't follow what Jesus taught at all.
No he would not approve! They are using Jesus’ teachings for profit, it’s shameful. Children of the deceiver is what Jesus called them.
But the BoM trumps the New Testament, at least that is how it seems. Who needs the Gospels when you have a hat and a rock?
Mormons are good at doing mental gymnastics to justify their actions and inconsistent doctrine.
Millie: 1000 likes🌺
I don't know if we believe someone deserves their inheritance. We just know that's how inheritance works; resources passed through bloodline/family.
I know that John intentionally doesn’t let his anger flair up very often (and I completely understand the reasoning for that). But damn, that rant at the end there was magnificent. Beautifully put, sir
Mormon arrogance, one of the most diffiCULT thing to deal with...
Unfortunately where I grew up in the RLDS church… we also “secretly “ felt superior….we had the “ only right answers”…..especially compared to the Mormon church. We tended to think that they had things even More wrong than other churches… and we had things so much More right than they did…totally looked down on the Mainstream Mormons……
Oh my God, I love John Larson I can't believe I never knew he lives in Corvallis! I am born and raised here!
This is hands down, the best final rant in any MS podcast to date. Thank you, John Dehlin. I’ve rewatched the final 24 ish minutes of this episode three times. I’m obsessed. ❤❤❤ thank you!
Ridiculous to believe: God will make your skin darker the more you sin and the dark skin sinner will never make it to the highest celestial plane like the light skinned people. (My wife says if she'd read this, she wouldn't have been baptized.)
Great discussion!! Thank you for putting this out there.
Another fabulous comment by John D. about everyone we meet is a brother/sister and we can learn from them…..no matter who they are. Yes, it does open our minds when we feel that way, compared to the superiority complex that actually narrows our minds.
Before I watch this, I want to say the reason I could not contemplate converting was their belief that my salvation wasn't valid. Spiritual superiority is off putting.
John dehlin really popped off with this one. I loved the talk about inferior exmos, and about humanity being my teacher. Both of those experiences have been huge in my life
Where is the JD short of his rant?? I need it NOWWWWW!
Loving Salty ranting John D ❤❤ Carah and John L are amazing too ❤❤
Congratulations on your 150k !! 🎉
Sad!! I’m a newish mom- my kid is 5 and trick or treating is just starting to be something he is getting excited about and wanting to do activities. The last couple of years,was disappointing for him and I couldn’t figure out why there were so little kids participating … now I know- the wards do trunk or treats for their neighborhood!! I had no idea until listening to this why UT sucked so bad at Halloween nowadays…
Makes my heartbreak for all the littles out there.
OMG. The rant at the end was....*chef's kiss*. Absolutely amazing. SPOT ON!!!
I highly anticipate every John Larsen Carah Burrell teamup episode. Great one
To add onto "women's work" that comes even more strongly from racialized labour. Domestic and manual labour were relegated to slaves and then disproportionately impoverished racial minorities. So that threads right into how the domestic labour women disproportionately perform as less valuable and less respected.
It cracks me up that as exmo's people know the mormon scriptures better and have the need to recall and explain them more fully than they ever did as TBMs.
The only scriptures you focus on in church are singled-out/cherry picked limited sections--you would never read every chapter and in full context. Plenty of OFF LIMIT discussions for the church "with all the answers"...lol.
You really have to teach mormons about mormonism before you can have a rational discussion with them.
You can’t have a rational discussion with fanatics stuck in a cult… you just can’t
I’m here for the F bombs
😂😂😂
Fuck yeah!
They're pretty great
Real people sharing wisdom. Great show!
This was such a really great episode with discussing superiority and religion. Loved John‘s speech at the end. I 100% agree with all of it.
Brilliant summary 👏 JOHN, you put it all together .....thank you!
I’m happy for the disclaimer, wish more people did that. Because some of us have young kids as well.
Good show tonight! John Dehlins last rant def needs to be a short, I'm going to listen to the whole show again! (Quote of the month: "Keeps us tiny in a box of ignorance-John Dehlin"
During a period of my life, I had several LDS friends, and always felt they had an attitude of superiority, it must go along with being brain-washed which was the first thing I noticed. Membership of the LDS Church is like having an insurance policy which covers every aspect of one's life, which is the positive side. This only works if one has a high tolerance for being obedient, non-thinking, and believing hogwash that cannot possibly be true. One friend claimed that unlike the RC Church the LDS Church never had a problem with the sexual abuse of children. It never occurred to her that perhaps the church was wealthy enough to pay-off anyone who dares to complain. And, of course such things never happen in a superior organization. LOL
@sjordan. 1.13.24. Rewatched episode today and found your comment re. sexual abuse.
LOOK AT THE SEWAGE that has slipped over the dam since this cast!!!
We know, however, that momoism is - AT ITS CORE -
based in - and built upon
STRATEGIC
UNTRUTHFULNESS
and
its "leaders" (on the very account of this "superiority" complex) refuse to abide by ANY reasonable morality, ANY law of any land (once they have licked boots to gain their way in, thereafter to reveal themselves blatantly as Smaug), or the very "laws" they have created ongoing for their subservient membership. They will not pay one penny except to judges and powers (even when THAT cost is 10 times what they would rightly be required to recompense the truly irremedial damages caused to victims first by the immediate abuser and then compounded at least 3 times by "church" complicity in this crime against the souls, minds, and lives of the those victims.
And the abuses so far revealed surmount in number and in vileness probably all we have learned of other churches combined.
“It bakes one’s fuckn noodle” omg I’m stealing that 😂
27:51 Henry VIII beheaded only two of his wives, two died before him, he divorced his first and fourth wife and his last wife survived him.
“Only two”. Like he could have tried harder. 😂
He divorced Catherine of Aragon before she died in 1536. And Anne of Cleves, also divorced, died 10 years after Henry.
This was very eye-opening and humbling for me. I was in a very abusive marriage for 17 years and when my ex and I sold our house, I walked away with a little chunk of change that I was able to buy a couple acres of land and put a cabin on it and I really believe that’s my karma for having to put up with his abuse for 17 years. And that’s obviously not necessarily true Lol. Thanks for such great content💜💜
I was raised on Mormon musicals. Most people mention Saturday's Warrior. A few people mention My Turn On Earth. I don't think I have ever heard anyone mention Star Child outside of my family! I loved the music, and the song "Within Me" helped shape the person I am today. I have even read the book and sheet music, and in fact, still own it. (It has been years since I read it) My user name comes from that play and I have had it since high school (I am 42). John, you have earned a level of respect in regards to musicals that I do not give out lightly!!
A saying of Jesus....
The Parable of the Guests
7When Jesus noticed how the guests chose the places of honor, He told them a parable: 8“When you are invited to a wedding banquet, do not sit in the place of honor, in case someone more distinguished than you has been invited. 9Then the host who invited both of you will come and tell you, ‘Give this man your seat.’ And in humiliation, you will have to take the last place.…
I found it ironic that J Larsen used teachers as an example of a people or profession who suffer as a result of meritocracy.
Speaking as a teacher, who loves her job, I say teachers are amongst the worse when believing they are superior.
Break down a teachers salary, most teachers work 189 days a year.
Most earn around $35 - $50 per hour.
So yes they don’t get paid for holidays, they don’t get overtime.
But most salaried professionals do not make overtime, many professionals bring work home and many professionals work outside of contracted hours.
Many teachers believe they deserve higher wages due to their superior knowledge and many look down on tradesmen and anyone who did not attend university and earns more money than them.
Ask a custodian who works in a school and ask how they are treated by some teachers.
Ask an honest teacher how some teachers talk about parents who hold hourly jobs and especially jobs in food service, hospitality, etc.
Many teachers believe they are superior and deserving of a higher salary.
Teachers are not helpless victims and many need to step down off their pedestals and realize they are not helpless victims.
And those who wish to argue this point, find me another profession where you can earn a living wage and only work 189 days out of the year, and still receive sick days and personal days too.
We all make choices. I chose to be a teacher because I love my subject and I enjoy talking about my subject every day. It is fun and if I want to make more money I can find position that pays more, but I am confident I will be working way more than 189 days a year, I most likely won’t get 2 weeks off for Christmas, and I would most likely receive 2 weeks paid vacation.
Just saying most teachers believe they are superior and deserving of more money because they are so educated, despite the fact that every teacher made a choice to be a teacher.
Elect... There are so many under-pinning messages with the idea of being the elect and chosen.
born in 54’ david o’mckay was end times. fortunately we lived in so cal, movie stars etc, in the church. a bishop i didn’t even know came to visit me in the orange co, cali jail. he told me to be the best, gangster whatever. we were progressive before it was a thing. put me on mormon stories.
Whoa! John Dehlin! Your "rant" was awesome! This whole podcast has actually become my new favorite!
“Swear therapy” is real and also helpful!
Double like, and I haven't even seen it yet. Keep up the great work.
I was born to converted parents. My father is heritage is from Britain and mother is Indigenous Canadian or "Indian". My parents married in the temple and we went to church diligently, paid tithing, supported three missionaries. As a child, I had this shame about myself, my lineage, my skin colour, my weight, my appearance, and members felt it was their right to shame me. I felt like an outsider and never good enough so I challenge this religion. So then parents began to shame me. But thank you for providing a forum to us to bring context to our childhood traumas. In some way, your helping me and people like me heal. Thank you.
You are all one in Christ Jesus,Paul didnt like himself as a murderer,1Timothy 1:13-16,but hey Jesus never died for whites only
John3:16&36/5:24/10:28
Acts4:12/1Timothy2:5/COLOSSIANS2:14
BLESS U,FROM ANOTHER CANUCK!😊
Good to see Carah Burrell
When a group of people believe they are superior to other people, such belief means that those who believe they are superior can do anything they want to people who are believed to be inferior.
John Larsen, John Dehlin, Nuancehoe for the win!!❤❤❤
Stellar episode, thank you.
I want New Merch. The t-shirt John Larsen had on, in Logan.
Love John Larsen ♥️👏
Unrelated sidenote to take or leave: I’d love to hear the show’s take on Shiny Happy People, I think it’s up the MS alley.
AGREED!
Hahaha the documentary series, but the song too if inclined!
Preach, John Dehlin!!
I find any superiority they believe they have as a joke. Having grown up in the Detroit area, I find people in SLC/Utah as very passive aggressive and gullible. So if the local LDS here are trying to come off as superior, it isn't working for them. Also, the LDS culture is very uneducated on other religions so in order to be superior, you gotta kind of have a background in theology. I would venture to say that a Rabbi or Priest would tear any LDS member a new one when it comes to theology.
Swear to God, John, that was the MOST epic rant EVER.
At 43:00 ish, there is so much double talk in the BOM where on one hand the Lord is no respecter of persons and all are alike unto him, but then he also has a chosen people? The chosen race? How does that work?
If I was thumbing through a list of travel destinations, I could not pay enough for the experience of "Travel the the PNW, take bong rips, and become enlightened with John Larsen." That is an excursion worth tens of thousands of dollars if I had them.
“False pride refers to an inflated sense of self-importance and achievement that is not rooted in genuine accomplishments or characteristics. It is a form of arrogance that involves displaying an exaggerated perception of one's abilities, possessions, or social status, often done to mask insecurities or gain validation from others. False pride can lead individuals to engage in self-aggrandizing behaviors, such as boasting, bragging, or belittling others, and can hinder self-awareness and personal growth. Unlike genuine pride, which stems from legitimate accomplishments and positive attributes, false pride is characterized by its superficiality and lack of substance.”
THANK YOU SO MUCH for bringing up the Palestinian apartheid. I know is not the main topic of the conversation but it’s often forgotten, and not many people know about it