While I want to stress that this is not always the case, Asexuality and Autism can often overlap. I myself am an Ace on the spectrum. So the the whole thing with Data proving he's human because he's not asexual is ........ uuughugh 😤 ....
Yeah ace (and aro) phobia often go hand-to-hand with neurodivergent abilism, because both fundamentally fuck up in deeming curtain more desirable by society traits the very basic of human nature... which they aren't. Being acearo and autistic made me extremely alienated from like... general feel of humanity? Pretty unpleasant :/
@@elaimaro122 as an ace i tend to give some pepole the benefit of doubt regarding aphobia : it's not somenthing that is commonly known , And it's defo not somenthing pepole from the outside can figure out , It's not like homosexuality or bisexuality wich is self evident on it's face , There are many pepole who wrongfully identify themselves as bi or pan before correctly identifying themselves as ace ... So i don't find it unlikely that the writers of star trek before the internet tought asexual referred only to bacteria ...
@@davidegaruti2582 aphobia is rooted in bias born out of existence in amatonormative society. It's not always malicious, yet it doesn't make it not harmful. Believe it or not a handful of homophobs, transphobs etc. don't really mean harm, but their fundamental misunderstanding and unwillingness to listen still hurt these groups in a major way. What you said make sense, it's an old show, but I think it's useful to examine these examples, for it gives a lot of insight into how discrimination may work.
Also overly sarcastic productions talked about robots being unwitting ace/aro and/or autistic representation in media during a trope talk about robots.
As someone who is Autistic, I especially loved the episode Astro B.O.Y.D! I loved how Huey and Boyd were portrayed within this episode! I've always suspected that Huey is Autistic, but this episode confirmed it for me! I cried so much watching this episode, especially during the line from Huey about how just because Boyd is wired a bit differently, doesn't mean there is something wrong with Boyd. I got so emotional seeing Huey experiencing or doing many things I've experienced/done as an Autistic person. It's soo refreshing to see Boyd's arc as an Autistic robot within this episode actually done right and I love that Huey connects his humanity with Boyd's humanity. Huey recognizes what the others didn't recognize, that Boyd is a real boy! I love this analysis and I agree that Ducktales is an amazing series!
YES!!! i watched the episode like a million times because it’s so good, it’s absolutely my favorite and makes me feel so seen especially when huey flaps his hands and infodumps about ninjas and all that
@@deinodinosuchus Same! Astro B.O.Y.D is 100% one of those episodes I will always go back to watch! I love that Huey stims and infodumps within the episode! It brings so much joy to my heart to see! We honestly need more positive Autistic representation all around!
It really irks me when people display autistic people as "non feeling psychopaths who lack empathy" when that could be any futher from the truth. Ive seen plenty of autistic people. Cry, lash out, get angry, can have extatic moments etc etc. We are not one dimensional.
Psychopathy (not even a real diagnoses, rather a symptom of antisocial personality disorder) is over stigmatized anyways lol. But yeah, still sucks. It’s actually a bit funny considering they’re on opposite sides of emotional awareness. Someone who”s psychopathic might not be able to feel things, but they can understand how feelings work; whereas ASD someone might not be able to understand emotions very well, but they do feel them.
There’s a reason it’s called a spectrum. Some act like they “have no empathy” others (like me) act like they have a lot. Plus the reason is usually because we are bad at showing those emotions in a way others understand
Very often autistic people (both I and my wife) just cry, lash out, get angry…at the wrong moment. Which offended the sensibility (feelings) of neurotypical people, resulting in the “non feeling psychopath” image.
yes as an autistic person i do have emotions though i do struggle to comprehend them (alexithymia or emotional blindness is very common in the autistic population)
It's not surprising that Ducktales did this well, they did also did actual research and got in contact with a few organizations in order to portray Della Duck, who is missing a leg, correctly.
In terms of representation I feel like what most of these shows don't understand is that, it's not that we lack emotion, it's that we sometimes have a hard time expressing it, or just express it differently than neuro-typical people. I for one am autistic and I have an immense amount of empathy, I may have trouble understanding people, and I may act "weird" to them, but I care for them a great deal. My friends see that and think of me as very sweet. But there are people who don't *know* me and have judged the way I express myself heavily.
My problem was that I feel too much and it overwhelms me. I had to make myself a secret place to put all my feelings into so that I could appear more stable and rational in the real world. This had the unfortunate side affect of making me seem robotic to certain people meeting me for the first time, nor realizing that I had to craft this appearance in order to scare away the least number of people possible. Was not the best approach in hindsight.
This is so relatable. I've been told I'm over empathetic or something like that since I really worry about people and the consequences my actions might bring to them. I think some people think of it as sweet now that I remember
This is why I relate to Kokichi from danganronpa so much. Although he’s probably not autistic he has no idea how to express his emotions and control them and that’s why he’s probably one of the most relatable characters to me out there despite not seeming too relatable on the surface
Smart brain: As an autistic I wish I had more relatable representation, and I feel that the use of tropes making autistics either not human or incredibly intelligent makes the community seem ‘other’ and is counterprogressive. Strange bird brain: Ooh, robot cool. Alien badass. Shaun Murphy is babey.
I know I really want to see a lot more autistic characters that isn’t hella smart I know that some autistic people are very smart but some aren’t and I wanna see those people represented
@@MadAliceInWonderland As an autistic person named Sean Murphy, I kind of hate that that character exists. Haven't seen the show, I have no opinions on the character himself, I just have a minor moment of panicked confusion whenever it comes up, especially in the context of autism representation, and if I never hear another "oh wow what a funny coincidence" comment about it it will be too soon.
@@IndustrialParrot2816 Entrapta's great, but she definitely falls into the cliche of every high-functioning autistic character being hyper-intelligent and usually in STEM. My favorite autistic character right now is the title character of the anime Komi Can't Communicate, which you should absolutely watch if you have a Netflix account. Komi's great because she reads very clearly as autistic without falling into any of the usual stereotypes. She's smart, but not in a way that meaningfully sets her apart from her peers; she's portrayed as being pretty athletic, which is rare for autistic characters; and the show focuses on her challenges with making friends and navigating social dynamics without inviting the audience to pity her. She's also a rare example of a nonverbal character, which is something.
Great analysis. I introduced the new series to my (also) autistic kids because of your video. They haven't got to season 3 yet but they are loving this. Gyro is touch averse. I don't know that he's portrayed as autistic but it struck me that a lot of brainy types are portrayed this way.
!!! That's lovely to hear, thank you ^^ And yeah that is indeed a common trope. While I do love me a science nerd, I'd love to someday see an autistic character whose more artistic like myself (if you know of any please point me in their direction).
@@Oakwyrm There's certainly a dearth of such characters. In "Everything's Gonna Be Ok" the main autistic character is a musician. I think they do a really good job of portraying autism in this show. In "Please Stand By" the autistic character is a writer and Star Trek fan. In "Community" Abed isn't explicitly autistic, but it's hinted heavily and he is into TV and film. I hope this helps.
@@Oakwyrm Not explicit but Yusuke/Fox from Persona 5 might be. He's not like Futaba/Oracle who seems to be much more clearly Autistic, but I think a solid case could be made for him being Autistic or at minimum ND in some other way.
@@Oakwyrm There's probably no way for us to tell for sure, but as someone who researches music history, it's possible that a lot of classical composers may have been on the spectrum. Everyone points to Mozart as an example, but after doing some research on Gustav Mahler, I think it's possible that he may have been autistic as well. I'd recommend reading his letters, or the book about him by his friend, Natalie Bauer-Lechner, which gives a lot of insight into his personal life and creative processes.
I feel like Data can feel emotion, just maybe.. distantly, if that makes sense. Let’s say he finds a cat. (I think he has one in the series, I don’t know. I haven’t watched a lot of Star Trek.) He might feel a twinge of love for that adorable kitty. But, since he’s supposed to not have emotions, maybe he doesn’t know that he has emotions. Everyone keeps telling him that he’s emotionless. So, maybe this twinge of love isn’t emotions. (it doesn’t make sense, but i just thought of that.)
Hard question. When you hurt a plant, it produces chemicals that our brain would interpret as pain. So do plants feel pain? The answer is no, but also kind of yes. The thing is, plants are so different from our brains that the interpretation of stimuli can also be very different. I would say the same applies to Data. The stimuli that trigger clear emotions in us are interpreted completely differently by his brain. And that means that he has emotions, but his reaction to it is so different that we cannot understand it.
Data is basically the Tin Man. Thinks he can't have emotions without a metaphorical heart, all the while having all these (true and valued) friends and showing compassion to fellow artificial lifeforms.
He does have a cat and makes a bunch of versions of cat food just for her so I’m pretty sure he does have emotions and it’s kinda an arc of recognizing the emotions slightly from what I remember from the show
Yeah I feel like he does have emotions but has trouble identifying and expressing them. The show's writing is a bit clumsy with it. Screenwriters have learned a lot over the 40 years between these shows on how to convey these kinds of tropes respectfully and it's on clear display between Data and Boyd.
I had this deep fascination with well written and sympathetic AI characters for the longest time. I always felt disheartened when they were denied propper treatment, especially by the very plot. Then realising I'm autistic later in life came with this awkward moment of retrospection "Oh, that makes even more sense now". It seems like something a lot of autistic or otherwise neurodivergent people have shared experiences about.
I hope you haven't watched Spielberg's "AI" -- it crushed me emotionally and I am still actively working on forgetting parts of it. It's just too heart-wrenching.
Obsessed with Vision in the Avengers and Connor from Detroit: Become Human? (The latter is very, very heavy on my "Play later when I can afford the right console" list.) Couldn't be me
as an autistic person i absolutely adore this trope 😭 yeah i get that its kinda weird with the whole association with being non human but ive honestly embraced it. being any old ordinary human is boring as shit bro who wouldnt want to be sick as hell robot or alien
Yeah, honestly I always found it frustrating that people get mad about compaing is to robots or aliens or whatever because it's "dehumanizing" when really it shouldn't matter whether someone is human or not if they have subjective experience. People are trying to put a line around how different we're allowed to be and then insist that autistic people fall WITHIN that line rather than outside of it, when they should be rethinking the line itself.
I'm not autistic (although the more I learn about it, the more I relate to a lot of the experiences), but I've long wished I could be either a fairy or robot because being a human kind of sucks tbh. Like I feel so behind or messed up because I'm not as ambitious or out there as other people. It's also really hard because I just happen to be a creative, take my time kind of person born into a society that hardly values art and is all about the grind and stuff 😔
Cool. It's nice to see TNG's treatment of Data contrasted with the better handling of a newer show. Is the new Ducktales really that good? I've heard positive things.
The new Ducktales is really good, yeah. It's not just some boring re-hash it takes the concepts and characters from the original show and does new and interesting things with them. Personally I find it very fun and engaging and would certainly recommend it to anyone who might be interested in checking it out.
@@Oakwyrm The show also shows respect for the source material. It might have some changes I dislike*, but it's clear they aren't doing this out of malice. *Ducksworth and Dufus Drake. Ducksworth at least seems to mostly have the same personality fortunately. Dufus Drake felt like they were trying to do a creepy Gideon Gleeful type character from Gravity Falls, but took out what little charm he had. I didn't care much for the original Dufus, so I don't mind it too much. Unless something major happens with him in the second half of Season 3 I think they could have handled the character much better.
okay so youre absolutely right, but since i use words differently ive always thought of data (and now boyd) as people but not humans. because human is a species, but person is a status. if they are people, then theyre people, if boyd says hes a real boy, yea, he is. but hes not really human because thats biological. the only problem is how people link human and person so closely that we think someone cant be a person without being human.
I love stories about Robots that want to be more Human, like even though they are fully aware that they are Not Humans(and were never Human to start with, unlike the trope of a Human becoming a Robot & struggling to retain their a grasp on their Humanity), and most likely won't become Real Humans(like the Disney version of Pinocchio), they still strive to find acceptance within Human Society, and to be thought of more as a Person instead of just another Machine.
Yeah I admit that this trope is problematic since, The writers are trying to Normalize these traits by crafting a character with them. However they are assigning these traits almost exclusively to Non-Human Characters. “Cough”. It is pretty heartbreaking since Autism is something not a lot of people talk about. I think one of the best representation of Autism as of late is Matthew in the Chosen. Which is a great show seriously!
My favorite representation of autism is Aaron from the Mitchells vs the machines. They never directly state that he is autistic but he is definitely autistic-coded. The “Hi would you like to talk to me about dinosaurs”-scene was honestly what made me want to watch the movie in the first place.
I would absolutely die for data, he's not written the best, but I wish that people would explore his connections with Spock better. both are emotional beings who are told that they aren't supposed to have them
Honestly, I think Spock’s way of handling the “emotionless” character makes more sense than Data. He’s not emotionless, he feels very strong emotions, but keeps them under control with a strict Vulcan philosophy. Data expressing emotion can sometimes come across as self-discovery, but sometimes it comes across as the writers forgetting what “emotionless Android” actually means
I feel like you’re completely misunderstanding Data’s story. You say that “what they tell us about his emotions is different than what they show us” which is the entire point and the writers absolutely knew what they were doing. We’re told that he doesn’t have emotions BECAUSE it is up to the viewer to recognize and debunk this through Data’s actions. In one of your examples, the episode where Data defines friends as “those who he has become accustomed to”, another crew mate (I think it was Troi) replied to him saying “I have grown accustomed to you too”, thus recognizing that the way Data sees friends is the same as regular friendship. However, I agree with you that they should have used Data’s emotions for a self-discovery arch. Furthermore, TNG was made in 1987 which is about 30 years before the Ducktales reboot. When Ducktales went to make their character, they had decades of autism research and examples from other pieces of media that they could work off of and take inspiration from. 1987 likely did not have nearly as much discussion about autism and thus TNG had to pioneer their discussion. Data is one of my favorite characters of all time, but the show simply did not have as many resources as Ducktales had.
This is a great comment. I hope more people see it, even if to respond and add to the discussion here, since I've only seen some scattered episodes of TNG myself.
I hope the writers were aware that Data had emotions, because it seemed so clear to me early on that he does. I didn't finish the series but I do remember watching the episode where Data meets his creator/father. I don't remember too many details, but I do remember that basically his father (I forget how to spell his name so I'm going to avoid typing it) didn't design Data or his brother Lore to have a machine like purpose. He made them to basically live lives, to think for themselves, to basically be his sons who will be around after he's gone. And Data was intended to have emotions that seemed more neurotypical, but the problem is Lore was built first with these neurotypical emotions, but he became a not very good person that way (I personally believe Lore turned out that way because he was built as basically an adult with adult emotions, but never had a childhood where he learnt how to deal with them, so I believe that Lore is neurotypical person with some issues that's caused him to act selfishly.) So Data's dad said he made Data "without emotions" so that Data didn't suffer the same fate. But honestly, I believe that he just gave Data atypical emotions so that Data could handle his emotions better than Lore did. It's weird because the episode I remember both seems to back up that Data is a person with emotions, but it also again tells him he has none. So I'm still not sure where the writers fell on this issue.
i dont think its fair when people say non human autistic characters are always bad rep. im going to be seen as different regardless so i like to get to be in the same group as cool characters like robots and aliens. i only think its ableist when the writer clearly thinks autistic = not human = not person.
this episode of ducktales (my favorite show) is my absolute favorite episode of anything ever. it made me feel so, so incredibly seen and proud to be autistic!!!!
Do you think that another problem with the differences in the writing is that one of these shows is quite outdated? In the 1960's, when Star Trek: The Original Series was released, watching a white man and black woman kiss shattered barriers in a time when interracial romance was still becoming legal in several states. So, when Star Trek started representing people on the spectrum more directly, the quest for recognition surely would be traumatic, with an actual trial to prove he can fill out a checklist of requirements for human status. In Ducktails, which is years old, people like that are more integrated; more relatable challenges would be people like me proving we are three-dimensional people, not just innocent outsiders or antisocial scientists or even white wise sages. I haven't watched a single episode from either series; I just think it's much more likely that the latter could be written not just for, but by people like myself.
I was going to say the same thing, I think for the time it was probably a bit of a bigger thing for the community. Data and Spock were my favourite characters since I could some what relate to some aspects. Obviously though Ducktales is better in terms of healthier and better representation, but that also comes from a lot more knowledge and awareness in the public and research has improved drastically for mental health. I dont have autism though I have severe adhd and possibly according to my social worker ocd.
If you ever go back to this series- Zane from Ninjago. Again, they never say it, but for seasons 1 and 2 I think it was handled really well. *Spoiler*, I guess? Ninjas is kinda old at this point and its well known but oh well. Zane's story is similar to Boyd's, in the way that Zane wasn't aware he was a robot (or, nindroid as he is later loving coined by the jokester of the group.) but no matter what happened, his friends/brothers-in-arms and the rest of his found family never saw him as lesser or unfeeling. There is an episode where his strangeness is discussed and there's a fight, but it wraps up pretty cleanly, and yeah. Zane is great.
In the prime empire season they even explicitly made a point how robots like Zane and Pixal have their own thoughts and feelings just like any other person.
For some reason i always found the whole thing with Zane learning hes a robot as a metaphor for autism. He didnt know he was a robot before. He lives his entire life, being regarded as weird (the other ninja also didn't show the most respect for him). He took thinks more seriously than others, he was described as "being in his own world", not having the same sense of humour as others. And other symptoms too. But he never knew why he was like this. Once he found out he was a robot, at first it broke him. (not literally). He explained to others that the reason why he acted this way was because he was robot (although i don't really see the connection between eating cheese inside the fridge, or laughing during a sad movie scene and being a robot, let's just go with it.) They supported him like a family should. At the end of the episode hes happy that he learned this about himself. In the next episode, he turns on his "funny switch" in order to laugh at s joke jay was making, which looked like the masking experience. Though it could just be me.
I have to subscribe after this analysis, you are speaking to my soul. I haven't watched either of these shows but now I definitely will. Also not to be weird but... Please give me your gender sir.
asdfghj Thank you, your words are much appreciated. Unfortunately my gender is a hand-made antique I unearthed in my mother's attic some years ago and I am thus rather attached to it.
Planning on doing a video on this topic too, and watched your video as research for that. It really helped and gave me new ideas of what plays into this topic too. Was a bit worried you would just bash Data, as someone who loves and relates to Data a lot, but instead you noticed what always confused me about his arc too. Its sadly fairly realistic that he is treated like this (I speak from experience as another autistic person), even in the oh so utopian Federation (Bashirs mental disability, anyone?), but it also hurts. Even if it makes me relate even more. This need to be normal, trying everything to be normal and working so hard for it but never quite reaching it, this was and sadly still is something I deeply know. And it really is deeply tragic that Data never realized that he is okay the way he is. Well, guess I have to write some Data/Geordi fix-it-fic about that...
@@Oakwyrm It surely will take a while until I have the video finished, and even longer until I publish it, but if you are okay with that I would link your video under it as material that helped me to create the video and can be used if people want to know more about the topic? If you want I could also comment the link here as soon as I have published it. It will be soley about Data (and a few other androids/clones I like) though, since I never saw Ducktales
Yeah, I loved the Astro B.O.Y.D., not only was it a really good story, but they managed to make an amazing in-joke. Carl Barks, the artist who made the Uncle Scrooge comics was a huge inspiration for Osamu Tezuka the creator of Astro Boy. There is even a letter from him to Carl Barks with a drawing of an annoyed Uncle Scrooge being hugged by Astro Boy. As an aside, I think that Huey is not the only Autistic or ND character on the show. Webby certainly shows many traits, and I think Fethry could be as well.
@@animeotaku307 She's definitely very relatable to me too. Webby is my favorite character in the reboot. I was shocked that I enjoyed it more than the original show.
A fun one which was recently confirmed on Twitter (not the best thing to do, mind) is Donatello in Rise of the TMNT. He’s not treated like a child, has low empathy but is respected by everyone in the series.
My life has been obviously less dramatic than a TV Show and comparatively calm, supportive and understanding. Yet there was this time, aged between eleven and 15, where I would have been perfectly fine minding my own business. Apparently that wasn't normal. Apparently I looked lonely reading a book instead of socialising. I get the concern, but the teacher could have really handled it better than making my classmates talk to me even when I didn't express interest in our interactions. Soon enough, it turned into bullying. About two years later, I get told I had "A slight case of Asperger's", and that's why I wasn't "normal". Which, No, that's interesting and all, but while writing this Paragraph I just realized, that you needed a DIAGNOSIS to understand that I do not like being bothered! And I doubt young me could have cohesively told you what I was feeling, that I was okay with being alone and not lonely, because I was still figuring myself out, and didn't even know what an introvert was at the time. But couldn't you have talked to me first, before turning some equally socially clueless girls into my bullies?! So, like, I kinda relate to Data. Being told/shown, unintentionally or with malice, that I was the odd one out in class. That I was "supposed" to talk to these people "supposed" to want to be their friend. And now that I am comfortable liking things and know there are many kinds of normal, many labels to pick and be born into, that I don't even really have a "situation". I feel lied to, looking Back.
another good representation of someone doing a common trope with robots right is Murderbot from the Murderbot Diaries. It is aroace, neurodivergent, and is a joy to read.
there's a guy whose name I forget but he does this Trek, Actually thing where he asks a question then tries to answer it. He did a really great video on the question if data had emotions all along and he brings up the point that Data believes himself incapable of emotion because this is what everyone tells him
I feel like Tech from The Bad Batch was actually some good representation of Autism. There was an episode where Omega thought Tech didn't care that Echo left the squad to join Rex. Then Tech explains that he does actually miss Echo a lot. He talks to Omega about how he experiences things differently from other people, and that just because he doesn't show his emotions on his face doesn't mean he isn't feeling them.
As an autist, before I knew of my diagnosis I was convinced that I was an alien orphaned to earth and that one day my alien parents would pick me up and take me away from all the hurt I was feeling, and now as a writer my experience has manifested in an actual alien character learning what it means to belong for them among other people. This video was really fun and I hope there’s more of this trope done well in the future.
I feel like part of the dichotomy here is that Star Trek TNG is a show from 40 years ago; and storytelling/writing has improved a lot since then. Good points made, but that sort of time gap is worth taking into account. Data's case I feel is less "no emotions" than "limited emotional expression". As you say he does clearly care about things, the trouble he has is in expressing himself. It was just...kind of clumsily handled by the show's writing. As much as I love TNG, I have to acknowledge its flaws as well.
Data is an example of an annoying trope I see in a lot of fantasy/scifi media, where a character who is supposed to not have any emotions very obviously does. Like the Yuan Ti from Dungeons and Dragons, who are supposed to be emotionless snake people, but they have organized religion, which would require some kind of emotional investment.
At least in the Monster Manual, they worshipped the snake gods because they believed they would become more powerful if they did, not because they felt any loyalty to them.
I don't see the problem with Data. He's constrained by the characters around him, and the story told through him. Like any character. His story isn't one of success or epic, it's of failure and tragedy. Some people don't grow, some people don't succeed. Constantly shoving success into people's faces can do just as much harm as telling them they can't do it, cause then it becomes 'well all these people did it, why didn't you?'
This reminds me of a show I watched once, called Humans, about a group of sentient androids trying to survive. There's a scene where one of them has to prove that she is sentient, and they make her watch a bunch of videos to gauge her reaction. The flaw in this plan though is that they chose videos that humans would empathise with, and she wasn't human... They didn't take into account that sentience is not based around human experiences.
I absolutely love this because I am an autistic young child with Asperger syndrome and some people think that autistic people just don’t have emotions but we do! Sometimes we just don’t know how to express them. So I love this
Ive always felt a connection with Boyd. I thought it was cause I feel alienated by my peers and he seems to be too. I still feel like that is part of the case, but this video makes me feel like there might be a bit more too. Tyvm for this
What I love about the webcomic Fortuna, is the diversity when it comes to characters. There are lots of trans- and nb characters, and the AIs (who are very relevant to the story) can't be classified as neurotypical at all. They were made for specific purposes, which shows in their personality and can sometimes result in very specific traits of certain disorders (like Diana v1 being autistic, Hermes v1 having ADHD, Helios v1 having OCPD and depression, Janus v1 having anxiety etc). And yet, those robots aren't just reduced to their purposes, they are people who can feel, think and act on their own and who are both slaves and gods of their world, aware of the fact that they trapped inside of a video game. Them being sentient and sapient people is a huge plot point.
I’d be interested in your take on Android from Dark Matter. I wasn’t thinking too critically about the autistic coding when I watched it, but I do remember her getting offered an anti-autism “upgrade” from another sentient android, but eventually decides against it, because she thinks it takes away her personality or individuality or something along those lines
I don't believe the writers of Star Trek were aiming for autism deliberately. I don't think they were perfect either, of course, as they are certainly limited by their own experiences. There are certainly times when you can tell that a theist writer was writing lines for a more atheist Picard, for example. In Data's case (and Lore's as well), I believe they were simply wanting to explore artificial sapience and sentience, a theme that was already established in the original series. The series is far more of a vehicle to discuss philosophy and what if scenarios than anything else, after all. Data is smart and doesn't respond in unpredictable (emotional) ways because he is a computer. I also believe that the writers simply didn't understand that curiosity is an emotion. They removed the most basic emotions, like happiness, sadness, and anger, but to make him be an actual character, had to give him some higher level emotions (primarily curiosity). As for activities, Data says himself in one episode that he is doing an inverted form of method acting. That is, he makes art to try to understand why an artist makes art, rather than doing so for the same reasons as other artists (which still makes it technically emotion-driven, since curiosity is an emotion, but again, I don't think the writers understood that fact.) The Federation is written to be a utopia, but there are plenty of cracks in it, and this fact is acknowledged outside of the interactions with Data. The Drumhead is one such example, but Deep Space Nine showcases far more of these cracks than The Next Generation ever does. The fact that Data is asked to prove himself in The Measure of a Man is one of these certainly, but I think the episode was meant more to be a framing device for asking the question and having that discussion. Is an artificial person a person? Should they receive the same rights as everyone else? Of course we know that the answers here are "yes", but there's no conversation to point that out if the Federation is perfect enough that no one within it thinks otherwise to bring the question up. I believe that Data's existence in the series, and these sorts of episodes in particular, ultimately helped society towards these realizations. Based on what I have seen here, Boyd has a very loving and accepting idealized situation where people stick up for him right away. Data has the backing of most of the people who work with him, but that was not immediate, and there are major issues with every member of his family they find. Honestly, these are both pretty unrealistic extremes in opposite directions. One of those extremes works better in a children's cartoon, where you want children to believe the best of people, and the other makes more sense in a sci-fi philosophy sitcom, where the more extreme situations can be used for a lot of one-episode plots and philosophy discussions. A more modern show has the added benefits of the modern era, with the greater availability of knowledge available that brings. A writer doing their research can better realize parallels they might be making and adjust things accordingly. There's also the added benefit of that which has come before for new things to stand on. Would Boyd be what he is now if not for Data being what he was back then? Things take inspiration from one another and can make improvements on their inspirations.
When I clicked "Read more" and all these paragraphs popped up, I didn't expect to read the whole post. But you put into words something that was formlessly gnawing at me during this video. The writers of Star Trek likely didn't connect that they were writing about a certain type of HUMAN and instead were focusing on the "what if" of sentient robots. I especially appreciate your line "A writer doing their research can better realize parallels they might be making and adjust things accordingly" because that's a relatively new concept for popular writing.
@@jamminoutrexan5474 It really is pretty new, and a lot newer than most people realize. I remember a time when I did not have internet access as a kid. Most people here cannot. Even once I got a Telnet connection from my local library, information became available, yes, but was hard to find. When I got AoL that improved. When I got cable internet, it improved again. I am on a fiber connection now, and it has been great. The further back in time you go, the harder it was to research, which is why I feel like it makes sense to go a bit easier on older media... Not completely, of course. Still call things out, but do not automatically assume the worst as to why. The truth is that, even without aiming for a target group of humans, they still managed to increase representation for a group of humans and create something that many of us found quite relatable growing up. I am on the Autism spectrum myself (what used to be called Asperger's Syndrome before the DSM-V) and, like Data, I have had trouble relating to others, trying to fit in, and showing/understanding the base emotions properly. He is a much more accurate portrayal than someone who is automatically loved and accepted right away despite being unusual. (That's just not really a thing that humans do, unfortunately.) The fact that that is true does absolutely suck... When I was my youngest, my emotions were always too intense. I was always either crying, plotting revenge of some kind, or super happy. At some point, the logical side of my mind made the conscious decision to shut that down (I remember the exact reason and details), and I ceased to show (or feel) all three of those basic emotions, even in a muted form, for eight years of my childhood, until at some point in high school when one was strong enough to poke through just a tiny bit, like the "Yop" in Horton Hears a Who. What went out overnight like a light switch eight years prior took another four years to get back up to a reasonable but not overwhelming level. So yeah... I happen to find Data and his situations pretty relatable... Both with and without his emotion chip.
@@thajocoth This story kind of makes about Vulcans they used to be verry emotional and then they decided to 'control' there emotions, but did you watch the Episode from Star Trek Enterprise or something like this with Jonathan Archer where Vulcans tried to access their emotions again but on a level that allows them to live with them.
The "ideal" data arc you mentioned reminds me a lot of Kuon Ichinose from Persona 5 Strikers. Her whole story revolves around her believing that she's emotionless, so she creates a robot whose job it is to learn about the human heart. That same robot is later the one who proves she has a heart in a really touching scene that hit really close to home. A big part about being autistic is realizing that just because your emotions don't behave the same as everyone else's, doesn't mean they're wrong or nonexistent. Honestly I'd argue Ichinose and Sophia from that game are almost better representation than Futaba was in the original Persona 5 game (although it is still really good)
I LOVE the 2017 Ducktales reboot- and I LOVE BOYD- I wish we could be seen a little more of him though. A lot of people headcannon Huey, Webby the purple bird friend (I'm so sorry I don't remember her name 😬) as autistic as well 💖
I don't completely agree with your analysis of Data, yes, he does have emotions, they often seem softer, less obvious than 'human' ones, it is Data telling others that he has no emotions/feeling, he doesn't recognise them in himself (possibly struggles to recognise others), but at least some close to him do recognise it. One scene that comes to mind is when Data asks Dr Crusher for parenting advice Doctor Beverly Crusher : "Just help her realize she's not alone. And... be there to nurture her when she needs love and attention." Lt. Cmdr. Data : "I can give her attention, Doctor, but I am incapable of giving her love." [he leaves sickbay] Doctor Beverly Crusher : "Now, why do I find that so hard to believe?"
Honestly, I didn't even realize Data could be interpreted as a metaphor for autism. But I see it now that you've pointed it out; someone might get the impression that a person with autism is emotionless because of their mannerisms, even when their thoughts and actions, both big and small, show they're obviously not. And it should have been something that Data came to realize.
Hey Oakwyrm! Since you've watched DuckTales 2017, could you do a review about Della and her prosphetic leg? I know you're not an amputee, but you clearly do you research, and I feel like it would fit with your channel's theme.
As an autistic person, I find myself relating to many of Data's mannerisms. While I absolutely love the character, I agree with your statements here. He could have been portrayed better.
As a child with autism and wishes to be a writer. my character with autism I’m basing it off of my self and my experience with it ( the character I’m basing off myself)
Intentionally or not, I've noticed that in just about every single depiction of artificial intelligence in fiction, the A.I. is coded autistic. The writers, in trying to depict a character who struggles to relate to and express human emotions, inadvertently draw on this trope. Since an A.I. would be capable of thinking faster than they could possibly communicate, they come across as being caught up in their own internal thoughts relative to the outside world. Since an A.I. is supposed to be much more intelligent than the average person, they come across as hyper fixated on a particular topic of interest. As much as the writers try to tell the audience that the A.I. has no emotions, it would technically be impossible for any sapient being to communicate and interact with others without the capacity for emotion, so the A.I. ends up displaying emotions similarly to an autistic person. I was part of a writing group where one of the members was writing a sci-fi story about an artificial general intelligence, or A.G.I. He was trying to depict a character who "thinks very differently from humans" and purposely made her so that the audience could not relate to her or the way she thought. He ended up using the Autistic Robot trope to a T, without even noticing he'd done this. I had to point this out, as well as the fact that in making this character "unrelatable," she ended up being more relatable to someone like myself.
I think what ducktales really does right is not only BOYD a Autisic coded character, but he's also a good bouncing point to Huey. Who is also autistic coded. (Honestly none of the mcduck and duck family are Neurotypical. And yes that includes Gyro Fenton and Launchpad)
You know, you've caught me internally griping with myself about Star Trek depicts data and his plight, and you hit the nail on the head I think. Thank you!
I enjoy finding characters I identify with but I feel like I'm constantly sorting through manic pixie dream girls who aren't seen as their own person or characters who are absolute geniuses or who are "emotionless" and I do relate to various aspects of those tropes and the experiences, but I still want a character that's just treated as a normal person. On another note, my favorite robot who I think is autistic is Zane from Lego Ninjago. I haven't watched the show in a really long time but I really related to him when I was younger.
As someone on the spectrum who taught himself to write and read functional code when I was a child I don't see why I should be annoyed that neurotypical folks think I act like a robot sometimes, I also speak 5 languages so I'm basically C-3po
I love Star Trek and I was wondering if you could do an analysis on doctor Julian Bashir as he is also shows to exhibit neurodivergent traits and behaviors along with the treatment of someone a disability. There are several issues with the betrayal of neurodivergent character in Deep Space Nine but I love the show dearly and think it might be a good watch.
i felt so validated when you analyzed datas character. i watched the entire show, all 7 seasons, and data is my favorite character, but i really disliked how the show treated aspects of his character. when he didn’t understand jokes his friends don’t explain it to them or fix this communication issue in the future. along with the character inconsistency and lack of a character arc that lines up with the clear ND allegory, the show really disappointed me with the wasted potential of his character
Yeah, Star Trek liked to claim that the future is so great and everyone is so much more open minded yet they frequently failed to show Data any of the same considerations they would often show visiting aliens. Data also very clearly did have emotions, they just came out in small doses. He cared about various people and creatures, he cared about the arts, he was kind, helped anyone in need, at one point he expressed pride for his own daughter, and he morns whenever he loses someone, even keeping some of their things as mementos. Hell, one episode he lied to his own mother about what she was because he knew it would make her sad if she found out and he couldn't stand the idea of taking something like that away from her. If that's not an emotional reaction, I don't know what is.
I can't speak for DuckTales, though I know it's a good show as I've seen a few episodes, but I think there's an important bit of context that makes comparing the two less useful here, though there are still many interesting points to be made. Full disclosure, I was diagnosed with Aspergers in '99 (which, naturally, later changed to Autism when that diagnosis was phased out), and Data ranks #1 as the most relatable fictional character to me, so I have some bias. I think something younger people with Autism often miss is that, prior to the mid 2000s, the general population didn't really know what Autism was. As problematic as they were/are, Autism Speaks actually did a great deal to raise awareness, where it went from people assuming these children were ill-behaved and poorly-raised to having some idea that their unusual behaviors and reactions weren't necessarily something the children were doing on purpose. Data was not explicitly based on someone with Autism, where I think it's likely Boyd was, just considering what you presented and when the new DuckTales was released. They were clearly using a certain type as an inspiration for Data, but through and through, he was meant to be an android, not a wink-wink nudge-nudge analog to an autistic person. One thing that I think is actually a very important to the comparison of Data to the autistic mind, which I relate to very much, is how the others would often impose their emotions upon him. Something would happen, and Deanna or someone would say "See? You were sad just like us. That's why you did that." And he would basically say "No, I didn't feel that way. I did it for my own reasons." This is kind of what you were saying about how he has his own emotions that just don't work the same way. They wouldn't believe him. They couldn't understand how he might feel a different way than they did. Their conclusion was "there's something going on in there, so he must be like us and doing it wrong". When I was a kid, I would get frustrated with other people because I couldn't understand why they did what they did. I knew there was a difference in the way we thought. This is just seeing that from the other side. It's probably to do with the fact that there's so much of Data that's relatable to many autistic people that makes it tempting to assume he's a stand-in for it, but I'm ultimately glad that's not how it is. I think it's better that he wasn't supposed to be closely analogous, as it allowed me to focus on the parts I totally related to instead of taking the character as a whole.
Data always felt like his ark was a tragedy, especially when it's seen how poorly androids are treated and generally how artificial life is treated in the federation. Even the emotion chip is something that ends up a horrid mistake and in the end data dies without knowing what he has because no matter what the crew might feel, no matter what we see, the fact remains he is considered not living. The fact he has to constantly prove it is very much the tragedy. As someone with autism, I ended up reading it almost like the whole of Data's story is a cautionary tale.
I thought that was intentional. To represent what they don't know about Data and don't know how to handle him. As shown in "Measure of a Man" for example. The conflict is: They know he is a man made thing, so they assume to the best of their knowledge that he can't have emotions. But at first Picard starts with: "He has rights until proven otherwise." Put yourself in the position of the characters, not the observer of the show. Would you think a robot can have emotions? At which point does a machine qualify as having emotions? Does your laptop have emotions too? Does a Furby have emotions? Real problems with no clear answer. Rationally most would say no. But what if someone buys an incredibly advanced Furby? How would you know? Disassemble it? Congratulations you killed Data in "Measure of a Man".
Trek having so many writers and directors coming through during TNG definitely didn't help when it came to trying to give Data a real arc. Things could bounce from flanderization to mischaracterization pretty easily in that setup. Though in general, I feel like the majority of Trek has ironically had trouble with with the idea of diversity. Sure, no one will bat an eye if you are, for instance, covered with eyes, as long as you think and act like everybody else. Like you, I would have liked it if he came to understand that he wasn't emotionless, just emotion...else? He didn't feel his emotions in surges of hormones, because he didn't have hormones. Then there could have been more emphasis on him learning to express emotions he wished to express in a way that worked for him.
I always thought that Star Trek handled the idea of a cyberautist better with Seven of Nine from Voyager. Her character arc is all about her finding and embracing her newfound sense of individuality while adapting to the social customs of the Voyager crew. She was initially viewed as emotionally detached and somewhat hostile due to her Borg past combined with her adamantly stoic yet dominant demeanor, but she slowly becomes more emotional and now dreads what she once longed for, being fully Borg again. She accepts certain customs to adapt to the crew while rejecting other to retain her identity as a former Borg. I always thought that was interesting as it's similar to a neurodivergent adapting to a more outwardly neurotypical demeanor in an attempt to connect to friends and colleagues, while retaining and even showing pride in some of their neurodivergent attributes; it makes for a much more interesting and compelling character
For an example of Data's story done better, I usually cite EDI and Legion from Mass Effect. In both cases it's made very clear that neither were programmed to experience emotion and many (including Legion's composite programs) insist they're incapable of it. But it's also made very clear that they do experience emotion, just in a very different way. The player has the ability to point this out to Legion from the moment they become a squadmate and EDI's entire arc in 3 is her learning to navigate her emotions.
I just started watching the second season of The Ancient Magus' Bride and there we have another autistic-coded non-human. Ivy, who is one of the classmates of the MC and is always seen wearing something that looks like headphones. until another character takes them away and we learn two things: 1. Ivy is part gorgon which are beings that look like Medusa and have the ability to paralyze being by looking them in the eye and 2. those aren't headphones, but earprotectors. Because he has very good senses and can't regulate them. And everytime he gets overwelmed he transforms into his gorgon form and then you have a being with snake hair and a paralyzing gaze in your vicinity. the situation get resolved and the other character apologizes, but only after Ivy ran away and hides and they have to use a magical hound to locate him. i really recommend the show because there is no judgement. Ivy isn't seen as lesser by his classmates and in fact they just go on as if nothing happend. They treat him mostly the same and i love it.
Wait- Autistic robot trope? I'm autistic and I never even knew that trope existed! Why do I always find things out late?! Data's my favourite Star Trek character! And thanks for the spoiler. 😭
I never knew how much the words 'the autistic robot' made me question things. It made me feel sad that I immediately questioned, before even seeing what the vid was about, if it was autistic because it was made wrong compared to other robots because asking that to a human is very *very* insulting
I think the most "humanoid" or to make this statement describe every possible life form "indivividual" thing is the logical thought that i sneeded to make a decision or choice in a certain culture set situation, that is used to reach a goal that isnt set from outside structureslike groups, but as such this can also be an adaptation or impression a person has when percieving someone else. The thing that makes someone a typical human is the way one can percieve the others emotional shortcuts and personal thoughts, dreams and specialities. As someone who experience alexithymia, emotions arent everything, yet the thing people are most familiar with. Just seeing humanity and thought as this niche little thing that can only be human really limits the creative freedom of people. Every Robot in a movie is portrayed as a human or as someone lacking emotion and searching for fullfillment and if not, they are presented through the people around them. There is just so much in fiction that is lost because everything "needs to be the same". That said, its still nice to see, what they are doing here.
I used to love watching Trek TOS and DS9 while young and with a fat-box Toshiba tv, however overtime I actually wasn't appalled by the actions of world-building
Have you been watching Picard season 3? I haven't either tbh haha i just watched the clips with data in (he's my scrunkly scrimblo) (Spoilers ahead!) I've seen a lot of mixed feelings about the season but at least with Data's arc in episode 8 confirms what we've known all along (he realises he could feel love and that Spot taught him what it meant to love 😭😭😭😭)
Okay can we talk about the artificial intelligence defense analytics Network AIDAN from illuminae I want to know if that character qualifies in this way or not This character is treated like an AI but like the entire plot of the character Arc is with Aidan essentially developing free will because of a glitch and also possibly developing emotions except he gets getting error messages whenever that comes up And I mean Aiden might be my favorite character in the entire book series but the character is really complicated on a thousand different levels and I'd really like to have somebody talk about it But almost no one has ever read the books
Good video, I know next to nothing about autism so all of this flew over my head while watching ducktales. But I got this on my home page and saw B.O.Y.D on thumbnail so hell yeah im watching it. And it's a good video, altho i hate how you say Gyro's name. But other than that gg
I am now emotionally attached to a little robot duck boy from a show I’ve never seen
GO WATCH IT! :D
WATCH THE SHOW! You will not regret it!
Same
Isn't he like a parrot or something?
@@helixsol7171 yes!
While I want to stress that this is not always the case, Asexuality and Autism can often overlap. I myself am an Ace on the spectrum. So the the whole thing with Data proving he's human because he's not asexual is ........ uuughugh 😤 ....
Yeah ace (and aro) phobia often go hand-to-hand with neurodivergent abilism, because both fundamentally fuck up in deeming curtain more desirable by society traits the very basic of human nature... which they aren't. Being acearo and autistic made me extremely alienated from like... general feel of humanity? Pretty unpleasant :/
@@elaimaro122 as an ace i tend to give some pepole the benefit of doubt regarding aphobia : it's not somenthing that is commonly known ,
And it's defo not somenthing pepole from the outside can figure out ,
It's not like homosexuality or bisexuality wich is self evident on it's face ,
There are many pepole who wrongfully identify themselves as bi or pan before correctly identifying themselves as ace ...
So i don't find it unlikely that the writers of star trek before the internet tought asexual referred only to bacteria ...
@@davidegaruti2582 aphobia is rooted in bias born out of existence in amatonormative society. It's not always malicious, yet it doesn't make it not harmful. Believe it or not a handful of homophobs, transphobs etc. don't really mean harm, but their fundamental misunderstanding and unwillingness to listen still hurt these groups in a major way. What you said make sense, it's an old show, but I think it's useful to examine these examples, for it gives a lot of insight into how discrimination may work.
Have you seen Rowan Ellis' video on asexual representation? She analyzes this episode from an asexual lens.
Also overly sarcastic productions talked about robots being unwitting ace/aro and/or autistic representation in media during a trope talk about robots.
As someone who is Autistic, I especially loved the episode Astro B.O.Y.D! I loved how Huey and Boyd were portrayed within this episode! I've always suspected that Huey is Autistic, but this episode confirmed it for me! I cried so much watching this episode, especially during the line from Huey about how just because Boyd is wired a bit differently, doesn't mean there is something wrong with Boyd. I got so emotional seeing Huey experiencing or doing many things I've experienced/done as an Autistic person. It's soo refreshing to see Boyd's arc as an Autistic robot within this episode actually done right and I love that Huey connects his humanity with Boyd's humanity. Huey recognizes what the others didn't recognize, that Boyd is a real boy! I love this analysis and I agree that Ducktales is an amazing series!
YES!!! i watched the episode like a million times because it’s so good, it’s absolutely my favorite and makes me feel so seen especially when huey flaps his hands and infodumps about ninjas and all that
@@deinodinosuchus Same! Astro B.O.Y.D is 100% one of those episodes I will always go back to watch! I love that Huey stims and infodumps within the episode! It brings so much joy to my heart to see! We honestly need more positive Autistic representation all around!
@@arabellasterwerf7980 i ENTIRELY agree!!!!
@@arabellasterwerf7980 it's honestly my safe/comfort episode when i'm feeling down or bored 😂😂
@@deinodinosuchus Oh my god yes! It's also such a good episode on its own too!
It really irks me when people display autistic people as "non feeling psychopaths who lack empathy" when that could be any futher from the truth. Ive seen plenty of autistic people. Cry, lash out, get angry, can have extatic moments etc etc. We are not one dimensional.
Psychopathy (not even a real diagnoses, rather a symptom of antisocial personality disorder) is over stigmatized anyways lol.
But yeah, still sucks. It’s actually a bit funny considering they’re on opposite sides of emotional awareness. Someone who”s psychopathic might not be able to feel things, but they can understand how feelings work; whereas ASD someone might not be able to understand emotions very well, but they do feel them.
There’s a reason it’s called a spectrum. Some act like they “have no empathy” others (like me) act like they have a lot. Plus the reason is usually because we are bad at showing those emotions in a way others understand
Yes, this. This is why I never saw Data as autistic, autistic people I've known have freaking intense emotions.
Very often autistic people (both I and my wife) just cry, lash out, get angry…at the wrong moment. Which offended the sensibility (feelings) of neurotypical people, resulting in the “non feeling psychopath” image.
yes as an autistic person i do have emotions though i do struggle to comprehend them (alexithymia or emotional blindness is very common in the autistic population)
It's not surprising that Ducktales did this well, they did also did actual research and got in contact with a few organizations in order to portray Della Duck, who is missing a leg, correctly.
In terms of representation I feel like what most of these shows don't understand is that, it's not that we lack emotion, it's that we sometimes have a hard time expressing it, or just express it differently than neuro-typical people. I for one am autistic and I have an immense amount of empathy, I may have trouble understanding people, and I may act "weird" to them, but I care for them a great deal. My friends see that and think of me as very sweet. But there are people who don't *know* me and have judged the way I express myself heavily.
My problem was that I feel too much and it overwhelms me. I had to make myself a secret place to put all my feelings into so that I could appear more stable and rational in the real world. This had the unfortunate side affect of making me seem robotic to certain people meeting me for the first time, nor realizing that I had to craft this appearance in order to scare away the least number of people possible. Was not the best approach in hindsight.
@@Takisan111 this sounds so similar to how i am and i think I didn’t even realize i was doing it
This is so relatable. I've been told I'm over empathetic or something like that since I really worry about people and the consequences my actions might bring to them.
I think some people think of it as sweet now that I remember
@@Takisan111 truer words have never been said.
This is why I relate to Kokichi from danganronpa so much. Although he’s probably not autistic he has no idea how to express his emotions and control them and that’s why he’s probably one of the most relatable characters to me out there despite not seeming too relatable on the surface
Smart brain: As an autistic I wish I had more relatable representation, and I feel that the use of tropes making autistics either not human or incredibly intelligent makes the community seem ‘other’ and is counterprogressive.
Strange bird brain: Ooh, robot cool. Alien badass. Shaun Murphy is babey.
Shaun Murphy is adorable
I know I really want to see a lot more autistic characters that isn’t hella smart I know that some autistic people are very smart but some aren’t and I wanna see those people represented
@@MadAliceInWonderland As an autistic person named Sean Murphy, I kind of hate that that character exists. Haven't seen the show, I have no opinions on the character himself, I just have a minor moment of panicked confusion whenever it comes up, especially in the context of autism representation, and if I never hear another "oh wow what a funny coincidence" comment about it it will be too soon.
we do have one or 2 characters that are good represanation entrapta being the big one as she is THE best cannonicly autistic character we have so far
@@IndustrialParrot2816 Entrapta's great, but she definitely falls into the cliche of every high-functioning autistic character being hyper-intelligent and usually in STEM. My favorite autistic character right now is the title character of the anime Komi Can't Communicate, which you should absolutely watch if you have a Netflix account. Komi's great because she reads very clearly as autistic without falling into any of the usual stereotypes. She's smart, but not in a way that meaningfully sets her apart from her peers; she's portrayed as being pretty athletic, which is rare for autistic characters; and the show focuses on her challenges with making friends and navigating social dynamics without inviting the audience to pity her. She's also a rare example of a nonverbal character, which is something.
Great analysis. I introduced the new series to my (also) autistic kids because of your video. They haven't got to season 3 yet but they are loving this.
Gyro is touch averse. I don't know that he's portrayed as autistic but it struck me that a lot of brainy types are portrayed this way.
!!! That's lovely to hear, thank you ^^
And yeah that is indeed a common trope. While I do love me a science nerd, I'd love to someday see an autistic character whose more artistic like myself (if you know of any please point me in their direction).
@@Oakwyrm There's certainly a dearth of such characters. In "Everything's Gonna Be Ok" the main autistic character is a musician. I think they do a really good job of portraying autism in this show. In "Please Stand By" the autistic character is a writer and Star Trek fan. In "Community" Abed isn't explicitly autistic, but it's hinted heavily and he is into TV and film. I hope this helps.
@@Oakwyrm Not explicit but Yusuke/Fox from Persona 5 might be. He's not like Futaba/Oracle who seems to be much more clearly Autistic, but I think a solid case could be made for him being Autistic or at minimum ND in some other way.
@@Oakwyrm There's probably no way for us to tell for sure, but as someone who researches music history, it's possible that a lot of classical composers may have been on the spectrum. Everyone points to Mozart as an example, but after doing some research on Gustav Mahler, I think it's possible that he may have been autistic as well. I'd recommend reading his letters, or the book about him by his friend, Natalie Bauer-Lechner, which gives a lot of insight into his personal life and creative processes.
I feel like Data can feel emotion, just maybe.. distantly, if that makes sense. Let’s say he finds a cat. (I think he has one in the series, I don’t know. I haven’t watched a lot of Star Trek.) He might feel a twinge of love for that adorable kitty. But, since he’s supposed to not have emotions, maybe he doesn’t know that he has emotions. Everyone keeps telling him that he’s emotionless. So, maybe this twinge of love isn’t emotions. (it doesn’t make sense, but i just thought of that.)
Hard question.
When you hurt a plant, it produces chemicals that our brain would interpret as pain. So do plants feel pain? The answer is no, but also kind of yes. The thing is, plants are so different from our brains that the interpretation of stimuli can also be very different.
I would say the same applies to Data. The stimuli that trigger clear emotions in us are interpreted completely differently by his brain. And that means that he has emotions, but his reaction to it is so different that we cannot understand it.
Data is basically the Tin Man. Thinks he can't have emotions without a metaphorical heart, all the while having all these (true and valued) friends and showing compassion to fellow artificial lifeforms.
He does have a cat; her name is Spot.
He does have a cat and makes a bunch of versions of cat food just for her so I’m pretty sure he does have emotions and it’s kinda an arc of recognizing the emotions slightly from what I remember from the show
Yeah I feel like he does have emotions but has trouble identifying and expressing them. The show's writing is a bit clumsy with it. Screenwriters have learned a lot over the 40 years between these shows on how to convey these kinds of tropes respectfully and it's on clear display between Data and Boyd.
I had this deep fascination with well written and sympathetic AI characters for the longest time. I always felt disheartened when they were denied propper treatment, especially by the very plot. Then realising I'm autistic later in life came with this awkward moment of retrospection "Oh, that makes even more sense now". It seems like something a lot of autistic or otherwise neurodivergent people have shared experiences about.
I hope you haven't watched Spielberg's "AI" -- it crushed me emotionally and I am still actively working on forgetting parts of it. It's just too heart-wrenching.
@@ronjaj.addams-ramstedt1023 I know it's popular for US viewers, but I actually never watched it and I don't think I ever will at this point
I felt this down to the very core, its true 😔
Hey, you and me both bro 🤝
Obsessed with Vision in the Avengers and Connor from Detroit: Become Human? (The latter is very, very heavy on my "Play later when I can afford the right console" list.) Couldn't be me
as an autistic person i absolutely adore this trope 😭 yeah i get that its kinda weird with the whole association with being non human but ive honestly embraced it. being any old ordinary human is boring as shit bro who wouldnt want to be sick as hell robot or alien
There's a reason so many people in the autistic community compare their life experiences as them being on the wrong planet.
Oh naww not my robot fixation being called out 💀 but fr being a cool robot is so much better
Yeah, honestly I always found it frustrating that people get mad about compaing is to robots or aliens or whatever because it's "dehumanizing" when really it shouldn't matter whether someone is human or not if they have subjective experience. People are trying to put a line around how different we're allowed to be and then insist that autistic people fall WITHIN that line rather than outside of it, when they should be rethinking the line itself.
I'm not autistic (although the more I learn about it, the more I relate to a lot of the experiences), but I've long wished I could be either a fairy or robot because being a human kind of sucks tbh. Like I feel so behind or messed up because I'm not as ambitious or out there as other people. It's also really hard because I just happen to be a creative, take my time kind of person born into a society that hardly values art and is all about the grind and stuff 😔
@@tfvk7632 yeah, robots are cool
I think Boys works because he doesn't struggle to be a real boy, he ALREADY is. The conflict comes from people not accepting him as one
Cool. It's nice to see TNG's treatment of Data contrasted with the better handling of a newer show. Is the new Ducktales really that good? I've heard positive things.
The new Ducktales is really good, yeah. It's not just some boring re-hash it takes the concepts and characters from the original show and does new and interesting things with them. Personally I find it very fun and engaging and would certainly recommend it to anyone who might be interested in checking it out.
@@Oakwyrm The show also shows respect for the source material. It might have some changes I dislike*, but it's clear they aren't doing this out of malice.
*Ducksworth and Dufus Drake. Ducksworth at least seems to mostly have the same personality fortunately. Dufus Drake felt like they were trying to do a creepy Gideon Gleeful type character from Gravity Falls, but took out what little charm he had. I didn't care much for the original Dufus, so I don't mind it too much. Unless something major happens with him in the second half of Season 3 I think they could have handled the character much better.
I think the way Data and B.O.Y.D are portraed is more a reflection on how society sees artistic poeple and how it has changed for the better.
Im constantly struggling between “FUCK YEAH ROBOTS/MONSTERS” and “I wish we would have human autistic rep just for once”
okay so youre absolutely right, but since i use words differently ive always thought of data (and now boyd) as people but not humans. because human is a species, but person is a status. if they are people, then theyre people, if boyd says hes a real boy, yea, he is. but hes not really human because thats biological. the only problem is how people link human and person so closely that we think someone cant be a person without being human.
I mean in Boyd’s case he’d be a real… parrot?
@@mynym4543 his name sounds like a fusion of "boy" and "bird"
I love stories about Robots that want to be more Human, like even though they are fully aware that they are Not Humans(and were never Human to start with, unlike the trope of a Human becoming a Robot & struggling to retain their a grasp on their Humanity), and most likely won't become Real Humans(like the Disney version of Pinocchio), they still strive to find acceptance within Human Society, and to be thought of more as a Person instead of just another Machine.
Yeah I admit that this trope is problematic since, The writers are trying to Normalize these traits by crafting a character with them. However they are assigning these traits almost exclusively to Non-Human Characters. “Cough”.
It is pretty heartbreaking since Autism is something not a lot of people talk about.
I think one of the best representation of Autism as of late is Matthew in the Chosen. Which is a great show seriously!
eh i think entrapta from the new version of she-ra the princesses of power is a better example
My favorite representation of autism is Aaron from the Mitchells vs the machines. They never directly state that he is autistic but he is definitely autistic-coded. The “Hi would you like to talk to me about dinosaurs”-scene was honestly what made me want to watch the movie in the first place.
I would absolutely die for data, he's not written the best, but I wish that people would explore his connections with Spock better. both are emotional beings who are told that they aren't supposed to have them
Honestly, I think Spock’s way of handling the “emotionless” character makes more sense than Data.
He’s not emotionless, he feels very strong emotions, but keeps them under control with a strict Vulcan philosophy.
Data expressing emotion can sometimes come across as self-discovery, but sometimes it comes across as the writers forgetting what “emotionless Android” actually means
I feel like you’re completely misunderstanding Data’s story. You say that “what they tell us about his emotions is different than what they show us” which is the entire point and the writers absolutely knew what they were doing. We’re told that he doesn’t have emotions BECAUSE it is up to the viewer to recognize and debunk this through Data’s actions. In one of your examples, the episode where Data defines friends as “those who he has become accustomed to”, another crew mate (I think it was Troi) replied to him saying “I have grown accustomed to you too”, thus recognizing that the way Data sees friends is the same as regular friendship. However, I agree with you that they should have used Data’s emotions for a self-discovery arch. Furthermore, TNG was made in 1987 which is about 30 years before the Ducktales reboot. When Ducktales went to make their character, they had decades of autism research and examples from other pieces of media that they could work off of and take inspiration from. 1987 likely did not have nearly as much discussion about autism and thus TNG had to pioneer their discussion. Data is one of my favorite characters of all time, but the show simply did not have as many resources as Ducktales had.
This is a great comment. I hope more people see it, even if to respond and add to the discussion here, since I've only seen some scattered episodes of TNG myself.
I agree to everything here. Data actions speak for themself.
I hope the writers were aware that Data had emotions, because it seemed so clear to me early on that he does. I didn't finish the series but I do remember watching the episode where Data meets his creator/father. I don't remember too many details, but I do remember that basically his father (I forget how to spell his name so I'm going to avoid typing it) didn't design Data or his brother Lore to have a machine like purpose. He made them to basically live lives, to think for themselves, to basically be his sons who will be around after he's gone. And Data was intended to have emotions that seemed more neurotypical, but the problem is Lore was built first with these neurotypical emotions, but he became a not very good person that way (I personally believe Lore turned out that way because he was built as basically an adult with adult emotions, but never had a childhood where he learnt how to deal with them, so I believe that Lore is neurotypical person with some issues that's caused him to act selfishly.) So Data's dad said he made Data "without emotions" so that Data didn't suffer the same fate. But honestly, I believe that he just gave Data atypical emotions so that Data could handle his emotions better than Lore did.
It's weird because the episode I remember both seems to back up that Data is a person with emotions, but it also again tells him he has none. So I'm still not sure where the writers fell on this issue.
Plus back then they were more interested in the technology thing than emotional aspects of it.
i dont think its fair when people say non human autistic characters are always bad rep. im going to be seen as different regardless so i like to get to be in the same group as cool characters like robots and aliens. i only think its ableist when the writer clearly thinks autistic = not human = not person.
THIS THIS
this episode of ducktales (my favorite show) is my absolute favorite episode of anything ever. it made me feel so, so incredibly seen and proud to be autistic!!!!
The funny thing is, I get called unemotional a lot, people take it as fact, and I used to believe it.
Do you think that another problem with the differences in the writing is that one of these shows is quite outdated?
In the 1960's, when Star Trek: The Original Series was released, watching a white man and black woman kiss shattered barriers in a time when interracial romance was still becoming legal in several states. So, when Star Trek started representing people on the spectrum more directly, the quest for recognition surely would be traumatic, with an actual trial to prove he can fill out a checklist of requirements for human status.
In Ducktails, which is years old, people like that are more integrated; more relatable challenges would be people like me proving we are three-dimensional people, not just innocent outsiders or antisocial scientists or even white wise sages.
I haven't watched a single episode from either series; I just think it's much more likely that the latter could be written not just for, but by people like myself.
I was going to say the same thing, I think for the time it was probably a bit of a bigger thing for the community. Data and Spock were my favourite characters since I could some what relate to some aspects. Obviously though Ducktales is better in terms of healthier and better representation, but that also comes from a lot more knowledge and awareness in the public and research has improved drastically for mental health. I dont have autism though I have severe adhd and possibly according to my social worker ocd.
If you ever go back to this series- Zane from Ninjago. Again, they never say it, but for seasons 1 and 2 I think it was handled really well. *Spoiler*, I guess? Ninjas is kinda old at this point and its well known but oh well.
Zane's story is similar to Boyd's, in the way that Zane wasn't aware he was a robot (or, nindroid as he is later loving coined by the jokester of the group.) but no matter what happened, his friends/brothers-in-arms and the rest of his found family never saw him as lesser or unfeeling. There is an episode where his strangeness is discussed and there's a fight, but it wraps up pretty cleanly, and yeah.
Zane is great.
In the prime empire season they even explicitly made a point how robots like Zane and Pixal have their own thoughts and feelings just like any other person.
For some reason i always found the whole thing with Zane learning hes a robot as a metaphor for autism. He didnt know he was a robot before. He lives his entire life, being regarded as weird (the other ninja also didn't show the most respect for him). He took thinks more seriously than others, he was described as "being in his own world", not having the same sense of humour as others. And other symptoms too. But he never knew why he was like this. Once he found out he was a robot, at first it broke him. (not literally). He explained to others that the reason why he acted this way was because he was robot (although i don't really see the connection between eating cheese inside the fridge, or laughing during a sad movie scene and being a robot, let's just go with it.) They supported him like a family should. At the end of the episode hes happy that he learned this about himself. In the next episode, he turns on his "funny switch" in order to laugh at s joke jay was making, which looked like the masking experience. Though it could just be me.
I have to subscribe after this analysis, you are speaking to my soul. I haven't watched either of these shows but now I definitely will. Also not to be weird but... Please give me your gender sir.
asdfghj
Thank you, your words are much appreciated. Unfortunately my gender is a hand-made antique I unearthed in my mother's attic some years ago and I am thus rather attached to it.
@@Oakwyrm Ah, no wonder your gender appears to be of such exquisite and unique quality. You may keep it in that case!
Trans
@@turtleboy1188 I mean... Yeah, I am?
Planning on doing a video on this topic too, and watched your video as research for that. It really helped and gave me new ideas of what plays into this topic too. Was a bit worried you would just bash Data, as someone who loves and relates to Data a lot, but instead you noticed what always confused me about his arc too. Its sadly fairly realistic that he is treated like this (I speak from experience as another autistic person), even in the oh so utopian Federation (Bashirs mental disability, anyone?), but it also hurts. Even if it makes me relate even more. This need to be normal, trying everything to be normal and working so hard for it but never quite reaching it, this was and sadly still is something I deeply know. And it really is deeply tragic that Data never realized that he is okay the way he is. Well, guess I have to write some Data/Geordi fix-it-fic about that...
Yeah no I absolutely adore Data, his story just makes me. Incredibly sad. Also I think I would actually owe you my life if you did that
@@Oakwyrm It surely will take a while until I have the video finished, and even longer until I publish it, but if you are okay with that I would link your video under it as material that helped me to create the video and can be used if people want to know more about the topic? If you want I could also comment the link here as soon as I have published it.
It will be soley about Data (and a few other androids/clones I like) though, since I never saw Ducktales
Yeah no absolutely do all of that, I'd really like to watch it once it's out
@@Oakwyrm Finally published the video. Here it is: th-cam.com/video/q4P5zUkSwzo/w-d-xo.html
@@Hyzentley Danke, danke, danke! Ich werde es mir so schnell wie möglich ansehen.
It's probably mentioned somewhere in this comment section already but OSP did a great video on writing robots.
Yeah, I loved the Astro B.O.Y.D., not only was it a really good story, but they managed to make an amazing in-joke. Carl Barks, the artist who made the Uncle Scrooge comics was a huge inspiration for Osamu Tezuka the creator of Astro Boy. There is even a letter from him to Carl Barks with a drawing of an annoyed Uncle Scrooge being hugged by Astro Boy.
As an aside, I think that Huey is not the only Autistic or ND character on the show. Webby certainly shows many traits, and I think Fethry could be as well.
Webby spouting a stream of consciousness without a filter and having a hard time regulating her voice is very relatable.
@@animeotaku307 She's definitely very relatable to me too. Webby is my favorite character in the reboot. I was shocked that I enjoyed it more than the original show.
A fun one which was recently confirmed on Twitter (not the best thing to do, mind) is Donatello in Rise of the TMNT.
He’s not treated like a child, has low empathy but is respected by everyone in the series.
My life has been obviously less dramatic than a TV Show and comparatively calm, supportive and understanding. Yet there was this time, aged between eleven and 15, where I would have been perfectly fine minding my own business. Apparently that wasn't normal. Apparently I looked lonely reading a book instead of socialising. I get the concern, but the teacher could have really handled it better than making my classmates talk to me even when I didn't express interest in our interactions. Soon enough, it turned into bullying.
About two years later, I get told I had "A slight case of Asperger's", and that's why I wasn't "normal".
Which, No, that's interesting and all, but while writing this Paragraph I just realized, that you needed a DIAGNOSIS to understand that I do not like being bothered!
And I doubt young me could have cohesively told you what I was feeling, that I was okay with being alone and not lonely, because I was still figuring myself out, and didn't even know what an introvert was at the time. But couldn't you have talked to me first, before turning some equally socially clueless girls into my bullies?!
So, like, I kinda relate to Data. Being told/shown, unintentionally or with malice, that I was the odd one out in class. That I was "supposed" to talk to these people "supposed" to want to be their friend. And now that I am comfortable liking things and know there are many kinds of normal, many labels to pick and be born into, that I don't even really have a "situation". I feel lied to, looking Back.
another good representation of someone doing a common trope with robots right is Murderbot from the Murderbot Diaries. It is aroace, neurodivergent, and is a joy to read.
I came here to say this. It's almost exactly the inversion of Star Trek's treatment
there's a guy whose name I forget but he does this Trek, Actually thing where he asks a question then tries to answer it. He did a really great video on the question if data had emotions all along and he brings up the point that Data believes himself incapable of emotion because this is what everyone tells him
I feel like Tech from The Bad Batch was actually some good representation of Autism. There was an episode where Omega thought Tech didn't care that Echo left the squad to join Rex. Then Tech explains that he does actually miss Echo a lot. He talks to Omega about how he experiences things differently from other people, and that just because he doesn't show his emotions on his face doesn't mean he isn't feeling them.
As an autist, before I knew of my diagnosis I was convinced that I was an alien orphaned to earth and that one day my alien parents would pick me up and take me away from all the hurt I was feeling, and now as a writer my experience has manifested in an actual alien character learning what it means to belong for them among other people. This video was really fun and I hope there’s more of this trope done well in the future.
I feel like part of the dichotomy here is that Star Trek TNG is a show from 40 years ago; and storytelling/writing has improved a lot since then. Good points made, but that sort of time gap is worth taking into account.
Data's case I feel is less "no emotions" than "limited emotional expression". As you say he does clearly care about things, the trouble he has is in expressing himself. It was just...kind of clumsily handled by the show's writing. As much as I love TNG, I have to acknowledge its flaws as well.
Data is an example of an annoying trope I see in a lot of fantasy/scifi media, where a character who is supposed to not have any emotions very obviously does. Like the Yuan Ti from Dungeons and Dragons, who are supposed to be emotionless snake people, but they have organized religion, which would require some kind of emotional investment.
At least in the Monster Manual, they worshipped the snake gods because they believed they would become more powerful if they did, not because they felt any loyalty to them.
I just love that he keeps referring to boyd as a human when he's actually a BIRD in a world of talking animals
Well, in the context of DuckTales, birdhood and humanity are the same thing.
I don't see the problem with Data. He's constrained by the characters around him, and the story told through him. Like any character.
His story isn't one of success or epic, it's of failure and tragedy. Some people don't grow, some people don't succeed. Constantly shoving success into people's faces can do just as much harm as telling them they can't do it, cause then it becomes 'well all these people did it, why didn't you?'
This reminds me of a show I watched once, called Humans, about a group of sentient androids trying to survive. There's a scene where one of them has to prove that she is sentient, and they make her watch a bunch of videos to gauge her reaction. The flaw in this plan though is that they chose videos that humans would empathise with, and she wasn't human... They didn't take into account that sentience is not based around human experiences.
It's a shame the DuckTales reboot got cancelled. It was so solid!
I absolutely love this because I am an autistic young child with Asperger syndrome and some people think that autistic people just don’t have emotions but we do! Sometimes we just don’t know how to express them. So I love this
Ive always felt a connection with Boyd. I thought it was cause I feel alienated by my peers and he seems to be too. I still feel like that is part of the case, but this video makes me feel like there might be a bit more too. Tyvm for this
What I love about the webcomic Fortuna, is the diversity when it comes to characters. There are lots of trans- and nb characters, and the AIs (who are very relevant to the story) can't be classified as neurotypical at all. They were made for specific purposes, which shows in their personality and can sometimes result in very specific traits of certain disorders (like Diana v1 being autistic, Hermes v1 having ADHD, Helios v1 having OCPD and depression, Janus v1 having anxiety etc). And yet, those robots aren't just reduced to their purposes, they are people who can feel, think and act on their own and who are both slaves and gods of their world, aware of the fact that they trapped inside of a video game. Them being sentient and sapient people is a huge plot point.
I’d be interested in your take on Android from Dark Matter. I wasn’t thinking too critically about the autistic coding when I watched it, but I do remember her getting offered an anti-autism “upgrade” from another sentient android, but eventually decides against it, because she thinks it takes away her personality or individuality or something along those lines
I don't believe the writers of Star Trek were aiming for autism deliberately. I don't think they were perfect either, of course, as they are certainly limited by their own experiences. There are certainly times when you can tell that a theist writer was writing lines for a more atheist Picard, for example. In Data's case (and Lore's as well), I believe they were simply wanting to explore artificial sapience and sentience, a theme that was already established in the original series. The series is far more of a vehicle to discuss philosophy and what if scenarios than anything else, after all. Data is smart and doesn't respond in unpredictable (emotional) ways because he is a computer.
I also believe that the writers simply didn't understand that curiosity is an emotion. They removed the most basic emotions, like happiness, sadness, and anger, but to make him be an actual character, had to give him some higher level emotions (primarily curiosity).
As for activities, Data says himself in one episode that he is doing an inverted form of method acting. That is, he makes art to try to understand why an artist makes art, rather than doing so for the same reasons as other artists (which still makes it technically emotion-driven, since curiosity is an emotion, but again, I don't think the writers understood that fact.)
The Federation is written to be a utopia, but there are plenty of cracks in it, and this fact is acknowledged outside of the interactions with Data. The Drumhead is one such example, but Deep Space Nine showcases far more of these cracks than The Next Generation ever does. The fact that Data is asked to prove himself in The Measure of a Man is one of these certainly, but I think the episode was meant more to be a framing device for asking the question and having that discussion. Is an artificial person a person? Should they receive the same rights as everyone else? Of course we know that the answers here are "yes", but there's no conversation to point that out if the Federation is perfect enough that no one within it thinks otherwise to bring the question up. I believe that Data's existence in the series, and these sorts of episodes in particular, ultimately helped society towards these realizations.
Based on what I have seen here, Boyd has a very loving and accepting idealized situation where people stick up for him right away. Data has the backing of most of the people who work with him, but that was not immediate, and there are major issues with every member of his family they find. Honestly, these are both pretty unrealistic extremes in opposite directions. One of those extremes works better in a children's cartoon, where you want children to believe the best of people, and the other makes more sense in a sci-fi philosophy sitcom, where the more extreme situations can be used for a lot of one-episode plots and philosophy discussions.
A more modern show has the added benefits of the modern era, with the greater availability of knowledge available that brings. A writer doing their research can better realize parallels they might be making and adjust things accordingly. There's also the added benefit of that which has come before for new things to stand on. Would Boyd be what he is now if not for Data being what he was back then? Things take inspiration from one another and can make improvements on their inspirations.
When I clicked "Read more" and all these paragraphs popped up, I didn't expect to read the whole post. But you put into words something that was formlessly gnawing at me during this video. The writers of Star Trek likely didn't connect that they were writing about a certain type of HUMAN and instead were focusing on the "what if" of sentient robots. I especially appreciate your line "A writer doing their research can better realize parallels they might be making and adjust things accordingly" because that's a relatively new concept for popular writing.
@@jamminoutrexan5474 It really is pretty new, and a lot newer than most people realize. I remember a time when I did not have internet access as a kid. Most people here cannot. Even once I got a Telnet connection from my local library, information became available, yes, but was hard to find. When I got AoL that improved. When I got cable internet, it improved again. I am on a fiber connection now, and it has been great.
The further back in time you go, the harder it was to research, which is why I feel like it makes sense to go a bit easier on older media... Not completely, of course. Still call things out, but do not automatically assume the worst as to why. The truth is that, even without aiming for a target group of humans, they still managed to increase representation for a group of humans and create something that many of us found quite relatable growing up.
I am on the Autism spectrum myself (what used to be called Asperger's Syndrome before the DSM-V) and, like Data, I have had trouble relating to others, trying to fit in, and showing/understanding the base emotions properly. He is a much more accurate portrayal than someone who is automatically loved and accepted right away despite being unusual. (That's just not really a thing that humans do, unfortunately.) The fact that that is true does absolutely suck...
When I was my youngest, my emotions were always too intense. I was always either crying, plotting revenge of some kind, or super happy. At some point, the logical side of my mind made the conscious decision to shut that down (I remember the exact reason and details), and I ceased to show (or feel) all three of those basic emotions, even in a muted form, for eight years of my childhood, until at some point in high school when one was strong enough to poke through just a tiny bit, like the "Yop" in Horton Hears a Who. What went out overnight like a light switch eight years prior took another four years to get back up to a reasonable but not overwhelming level.
So yeah... I happen to find Data and his situations pretty relatable... Both with and without his emotion chip.
@@thajocoth
This story kind of makes about Vulcans they used to be verry emotional and then they decided to 'control' there emotions, but did you watch the Episode from Star Trek Enterprise or something like this with Jonathan Archer where Vulcans tried to access their emotions again but on a level that allows them to live with them.
It is season 1 episode 16 'fusion'.
The "ideal" data arc you mentioned reminds me a lot of Kuon Ichinose from Persona 5 Strikers. Her whole story revolves around her believing that she's emotionless, so she creates a robot whose job it is to learn about the human heart. That same robot is later the one who proves she has a heart in a really touching scene that hit really close to home. A big part about being autistic is realizing that just because your emotions don't behave the same as everyone else's, doesn't mean they're wrong or nonexistent.
Honestly I'd argue Ichinose and Sophia from that game are almost better representation than Futaba was in the original Persona 5 game (although it is still really good)
I LOVE the 2017 Ducktales reboot- and I LOVE BOYD- I wish we could be seen a little more of him though. A lot of people headcannon Huey, Webby the purple bird friend (I'm so sorry I don't remember her name 😬) as autistic as well 💖
I don't completely agree with your analysis of Data, yes, he does have emotions, they often seem softer, less obvious than 'human' ones, it is Data telling others that he has no emotions/feeling, he doesn't recognise them in himself (possibly struggles to recognise others), but at least some close to him do recognise it. One scene that comes to mind is when Data asks Dr Crusher for parenting advice
Doctor Beverly Crusher : "Just help her realize she's not alone. And... be there to nurture her when she needs love and attention."
Lt. Cmdr. Data : "I can give her attention, Doctor, but I am incapable of giving her love."
[he leaves sickbay]
Doctor Beverly Crusher : "Now, why do I find that so hard to believe?"
That particular line is one important reason why I like Dr. Crusher so much.
Honestly, I didn't even realize Data could be interpreted as a metaphor for autism. But I see it now that you've pointed it out; someone might get the impression that a person with autism is emotionless because of their mannerisms, even when their thoughts and actions, both big and small, show they're obviously not. And it should have been something that Data came to realize.
Hey Oakwyrm! Since you've watched DuckTales 2017, could you do a review about Della and her prosphetic leg? I know you're not an amputee, but you clearly do you research, and I feel like it would fit with your channel's theme.
I knew I loved the new Ducktales, I really need to get around to watch season 3.
season 3 is the best imo, so go watch it!
As an autistic person, I find myself relating to many of Data's mannerisms. While I absolutely love the character, I agree with your statements here. He could have been portrayed better.
As a child with autism and wishes to be a writer. my character with autism I’m basing it off of my self and my experience with it ( the character I’m basing off myself)
data owns my heart man
The emotional attachment I feel to these fictional characters is mildly concerning but I just love them too much
Intentionally or not, I've noticed that in just about every single depiction of artificial intelligence in fiction, the A.I. is coded autistic. The writers, in trying to depict a character who struggles to relate to and express human emotions, inadvertently draw on this trope. Since an A.I. would be capable of thinking faster than they could possibly communicate, they come across as being caught up in their own internal thoughts relative to the outside world. Since an A.I. is supposed to be much more intelligent than the average person, they come across as hyper fixated on a particular topic of interest. As much as the writers try to tell the audience that the A.I. has no emotions, it would technically be impossible for any sapient being to communicate and interact with others without the capacity for emotion, so the A.I. ends up displaying emotions similarly to an autistic person.
I was part of a writing group where one of the members was writing a sci-fi story about an artificial general intelligence, or A.G.I. He was trying to depict a character who "thinks very differently from humans" and purposely made her so that the audience could not relate to her or the way she thought. He ended up using the Autistic Robot trope to a T, without even noticing he'd done this. I had to point this out, as well as the fact that in making this character "unrelatable," she ended up being more relatable to someone like myself.
I didn’t even know about this trope till now and honestly it’s pretty cool
I think what ducktales really does right is not only BOYD a Autisic coded character, but he's also a good bouncing point to Huey. Who is also autistic coded. (Honestly none of the mcduck and duck family are Neurotypical. And yes that includes Gyro Fenton and Launchpad)
You know, you've caught me internally griping with myself about Star Trek depicts data and his plight, and you hit the nail on the head I think. Thank you!
I enjoy finding characters I identify with but I feel like I'm constantly sorting through manic pixie dream girls who aren't seen as their own person or characters who are absolute geniuses or who are "emotionless" and I do relate to various aspects of those tropes and the experiences, but I still want a character that's just treated as a normal person.
On another note, my favorite robot who I think is autistic is Zane from Lego Ninjago. I haven't watched the show in a really long time but I really related to him when I was younger.
As someone on the spectrum who taught himself to write and read functional code when I was a child I don't see why I should be annoyed that neurotypical folks think I act like a robot sometimes, I also speak 5 languages so I'm basically C-3po
Speak 6 languages and am autistic myself!
I love Star Trek and I was wondering if you could do an analysis on doctor Julian Bashir as he is also shows to exhibit neurodivergent traits and behaviors along with the treatment of someone a disability. There are several issues with the betrayal of neurodivergent character in Deep Space Nine but I love the show dearly and think it might be a good watch.
Your voice is so calming :)
im autistic and i wear my feelings on my sleeve
I've been sleeping on duck tails, god I gotta check it out
i felt so validated when you analyzed datas character. i watched the entire show, all 7 seasons, and data is my favorite character, but i really disliked how the show treated aspects of his character. when he didn’t understand jokes his friends don’t explain it to them or fix this communication issue in the future. along with the character inconsistency and lack of a character arc that lines up with the clear ND allegory, the show really disappointed me with the wasted potential of his character
Yeah, Star Trek liked to claim that the future is so great and everyone is so much more open minded yet they frequently failed to show Data any of the same considerations they would often show visiting aliens. Data also very clearly did have emotions, they just came out in small doses. He cared about various people and creatures, he cared about the arts, he was kind, helped anyone in need, at one point he expressed pride for his own daughter, and he morns whenever he loses someone, even keeping some of their things as mementos. Hell, one episode he lied to his own mother about what she was because he knew it would make her sad if she found out and he couldn't stand the idea of taking something like that away from her. If that's not an emotional reaction, I don't know what is.
I can't speak for DuckTales, though I know it's a good show as I've seen a few episodes, but I think there's an important bit of context that makes comparing the two less useful here, though there are still many interesting points to be made. Full disclosure, I was diagnosed with Aspergers in '99 (which, naturally, later changed to Autism when that diagnosis was phased out), and Data ranks #1 as the most relatable fictional character to me, so I have some bias.
I think something younger people with Autism often miss is that, prior to the mid 2000s, the general population didn't really know what Autism was. As problematic as they were/are, Autism Speaks actually did a great deal to raise awareness, where it went from people assuming these children were ill-behaved and poorly-raised to having some idea that their unusual behaviors and reactions weren't necessarily something the children were doing on purpose.
Data was not explicitly based on someone with Autism, where I think it's likely Boyd was, just considering what you presented and when the new DuckTales was released. They were clearly using a certain type as an inspiration for Data, but through and through, he was meant to be an android, not a wink-wink nudge-nudge analog to an autistic person.
One thing that I think is actually a very important to the comparison of Data to the autistic mind, which I relate to very much, is how the others would often impose their emotions upon him. Something would happen, and Deanna or someone would say "See? You were sad just like us. That's why you did that." And he would basically say "No, I didn't feel that way. I did it for my own reasons." This is kind of what you were saying about how he has his own emotions that just don't work the same way. They wouldn't believe him. They couldn't understand how he might feel a different way than they did. Their conclusion was "there's something going on in there, so he must be like us and doing it wrong". When I was a kid, I would get frustrated with other people because I couldn't understand why they did what they did. I knew there was a difference in the way we thought. This is just seeing that from the other side.
It's probably to do with the fact that there's so much of Data that's relatable to many autistic people that makes it tempting to assume he's a stand-in for it, but I'm ultimately glad that's not how it is. I think it's better that he wasn't supposed to be closely analogous, as it allowed me to focus on the parts I totally related to instead of taking the character as a whole.
Zane from Ninjago
Data always felt like his ark was a tragedy, especially when it's seen how poorly androids are treated and generally how artificial life is treated in the federation. Even the emotion chip is something that ends up a horrid mistake and in the end data dies without knowing what he has because no matter what the crew might feel, no matter what we see, the fact remains he is considered not living. The fact he has to constantly prove it is very much the tragedy. As someone with autism, I ended up reading it almost like the whole of Data's story is a cautionary tale.
I have to watch this cartoon now, holy shit!
Milo Murphy’s Law is another show with really great ND rep.
B.O.Y.D is my favorite child
I thought that was intentional.
To represent what they don't know about Data and don't know how to handle him.
As shown in "Measure of a Man" for example. The conflict is: They know he is a man made thing, so they assume to the best of their knowledge that he can't have emotions.
But at first Picard starts with: "He has rights until proven otherwise."
Put yourself in the position of the characters, not the observer of the show.
Would you think a robot can have emotions? At which point does a machine qualify as having emotions?
Does your laptop have emotions too? Does a Furby have emotions? Real problems with no clear answer. Rationally most would say no. But what if someone buys an incredibly advanced Furby? How would you know? Disassemble it?
Congratulations you killed Data in "Measure of a Man".
Staring at Zane from Ninjago
Aah now I wanna rewatch Astro Boyd, it's my favourite episode ✨
I might need to watch Duck tails/Duck tales
There is nobody on the enterprise more Human than Data
Trek having so many writers and directors coming through during TNG definitely didn't help when it came to trying to give Data a real arc. Things could bounce from flanderization to mischaracterization pretty easily in that setup. Though in general, I feel like the majority of Trek has ironically had trouble with with the idea of diversity. Sure, no one will bat an eye if you are, for instance, covered with eyes, as long as you think and act like everybody else.
Like you, I would have liked it if he came to understand that he wasn't emotionless, just emotion...else? He didn't feel his emotions in surges of hormones, because he didn't have hormones. Then there could have been more emphasis on him learning to express emotions he wished to express in a way that worked for him.
I love Boyd he’s always been a favourite of mine since the episode I met him and I felt so bad for him cause of people used him so much
I always thought that Star Trek handled the idea of a cyberautist better with Seven of Nine from Voyager. Her character arc is all about her finding and embracing her newfound sense of individuality while adapting to the social customs of the Voyager crew. She was initially viewed as emotionally detached and somewhat hostile due to her Borg past combined with her adamantly stoic yet dominant demeanor, but she slowly becomes more emotional and now dreads what she once longed for, being fully Borg again. She accepts certain customs to adapt to the crew while rejecting other to retain her identity as a former Borg. I always thought that was interesting as it's similar to a neurodivergent adapting to a more outwardly neurotypical demeanor in an attempt to connect to friends and colleagues, while retaining and even showing pride in some of their neurodivergent attributes; it makes for a much more interesting and compelling character
Also Boyd is precious and I would protect him at all costs
For an example of Data's story done better, I usually cite EDI and Legion from Mass Effect. In both cases it's made very clear that neither were programmed to experience emotion and many (including Legion's composite programs) insist they're incapable of it. But it's also made very clear that they do experience emotion, just in a very different way. The player has the ability to point this out to Legion from the moment they become a squadmate and EDI's entire arc in 3 is her learning to navigate her emotions.
Would you say that Webby can also be read as autistic re: “DuckTales” 2017 characters?
I just started watching the second season of The Ancient Magus' Bride and there we have another autistic-coded non-human. Ivy, who is one of the classmates of the MC and is always seen wearing something that looks like headphones. until another character takes them away and we learn two things: 1. Ivy is part gorgon which are beings that look like Medusa and have the ability to paralyze being by looking them in the eye and 2. those aren't headphones, but earprotectors. Because he has very good senses and can't regulate them. And everytime he gets overwelmed he transforms into his gorgon form and then you have a being with snake hair and a paralyzing gaze in your vicinity. the situation get resolved and the other character apologizes, but only after Ivy ran away and hides and they have to use a magical hound to locate him. i really recommend the show because there is no judgement. Ivy isn't seen as lesser by his classmates and in fact they just go on as if nothing happend. They treat him mostly the same and i love it.
Wait a minute does Boyd have robot ptsd
He’s not human he’s a bird :(
Data had to have sex to be considered human 😮😮😤
Technically ninjago did the "character discovers they're a robot" plot before ducktales
Wait- Autistic robot trope? I'm autistic and I never even knew that trope existed! Why do I always find things out late?! Data's my favourite Star Trek character! And thanks for the spoiler. 😭
I never knew how much the words 'the autistic robot' made me question things. It made me feel sad that I immediately questioned, before even seeing what the vid was about, if it was autistic because it was made wrong compared to other robots because asking that to a human is very *very* insulting
love your stuff
I think the most "humanoid" or to make this statement describe every possible life form "indivividual" thing is the logical thought that i sneeded to make a decision or choice in a certain culture set situation, that is used to reach a goal that isnt set from outside structureslike groups, but as such this can also be an adaptation or impression a person has when percieving someone else. The thing that makes someone a typical human is the way one can percieve the others emotional shortcuts and personal thoughts, dreams and specialities. As someone who experience alexithymia, emotions arent everything, yet the thing people are most familiar with. Just seeing humanity and thought as this niche little thing that can only be human really limits the creative freedom of people. Every Robot in a movie is portrayed as a human or as someone lacking emotion and searching for fullfillment and if not, they are presented through the people around them. There is just so much in fiction that is lost because everything "needs to be the same". That said, its still nice to see, what they are doing here.
Never seen either show but the Boyd segment resonated with me as a trans woman so much.
I used to love watching Trek TOS and DS9 while young and with a fat-box Toshiba tv, however overtime I actually wasn't appalled by the actions of world-building
this comment section is full of Zane kinnies I love it-
Have you been watching Picard season 3? I haven't either tbh haha i just watched the clips with data in (he's my scrunkly scrimblo) (Spoilers ahead!) I've seen a lot of mixed feelings about the season but at least with Data's arc in episode 8 confirms what we've known all along (he realises he could feel love and that Spot taught him what it meant to love 😭😭😭😭)
zane ninjago
Also by now an older Show.
He is the best ninja, I have spoken
Okay can we talk about the artificial intelligence defense analytics Network AIDAN from illuminae
I want to know if that character qualifies in this way or not
This character is treated like an AI but like the entire plot of the character Arc is with Aidan essentially developing free will because of a glitch and also possibly developing emotions except he gets getting error messages whenever that comes up
And I mean Aiden might be my favorite character in the entire book series but the character is really complicated on a thousand different levels and I'd really like to have somebody talk about it
But almost no one has ever read the books
I've read them, but only once so I've forgotten some of the story
@@PhoebeTheFairy56 ooof
Good video, I know next to nothing about autism so all of this flew over my head while watching ducktales.
But I got this on my home page and saw B.O.Y.D on thumbnail so hell yeah im watching it.
And it's a good video, altho i hate how you say Gyro's name. But other than that gg