How Protestants are Waking Up to a Theology of the Body (Nancy Pearcey and Sam Allberry)
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 17 ก.พ. 2022
- Is birth control okay for Christians? Should men get vasectomies? There is an awakening happening within the Protestant Church. More people are recognizing the importance of the body for thinking about sex, love, and relationships. In this interview, I talk with two leaders in this movement--Nancy Pearcey and Sam Allberry. We discuss transgenderism, birth control, and what the Bible says about our identity as human beings.
READ: Love Thy Body, by Nancy Pearcey (amzn.to/3gzVjdX)
READ: What God Has to Say about Our Bodies, by Sam Allberry (amzn.to/3GF9aue)
READ: Chasing Love, by Sean McDowell (amzn.to/3HGrV1I)
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I had to take Anatomy and Physiology classes. I was literally gobsmacked the whole time. The human body is an amazing creation. It really impressed upon me how taking care of my body is a way to honor God.
I like to put it like this: There is more technology in wriggling your fingers than there is all the software in the world. :)
@@jeremybeavon4476 beautiful!! 💜💜
What a fantastic way to say it, "we are not worthy but we are not worthless"!! I'm going to use that! It also plays into being made in th he image of God - the Imago Dei! Thank you for this wonderful interview! Sean, I always learn something when I listen to your podcast! God continue to bless and use you! I'm going to get Nancy's and Sam's books!
I think Jesus life and sacrifice for us to be reconciled to the Father says we are worthy of His blood. He says we are worthy of His blood!
As an atheist, former evangelical Christian, I respect Sean. He may, or not be wrong, but his approach is the closest to intellectual honesty I have seen in any Christian apologist. Well done Sean!
Why former?
The realization that a personally concerned God was not present in my life, despite my devotion and prayers to it. Followed by undeniable, empirically supported evidence which shows just how impersonal and uncaring the universe really is. Hence, my atheism. But that's okay. If a caring God exists, it would know exactly what it would require for me to believe. It hasn't done that yet. I am waiting.
@@warrenbrandt8818 I totally utterly identify with your struggle. I have *exactly* the same one myself.
I remain a (*wannabe evangelical - *minus the personal experience) Christian. But with the knowledge of all the evidence I find in favour of it, I cannot in all conscience, walk away.
In fact, you *might* enjoy this:
th-cam.com/play/PLQ7tmLfYg7S8MPo-b73Q_-g3HYNMqLZ2Q.html
I've found it very thought provoking.
Be blessed 🙂
Thanks Warren. I’m honored you’d watch!
I have a lot of the same issues and struggles. I think a lot of people do. I can't get over the overwhelming scientific evidence pointing towards the existence of God tho. Whenever I start doubting I walk myself through the big bang and fine tuning evidence. I've got a doctorate and am a practicing health care professional so that scientific evidence has always been the most convincing for me.
Hi, although I am not Catholic, I have hugely benefited from the ministry of Christopher West of the Theology of the Body Institute. He has a TH-cam channel that I would encourage people to check out. It would be cool to see Sean interview West. West reveals the Theology of the Body in a much less "dry" way then it's presented here. Even so, I am very thankful for these guests and to see that Protestants are finally picking up on such an important aspect of our faith.
I love his books. I’ve reached out but not heard back. I will keep trying because that would be an awesome interview. If you get a chance send him a note and tell him I tried to reach out and want to engage!
@@SeanMcDowell I sure will! Thank you and so blessed by your ministry!
@Dr. Sean McDowell you're supposed to offer up your body as a Living Sacrifice. So if your father was going to kill you, you know, like Jesus or Isaac, would you trust him or question his morals? This will reveal what seed is in you.
@@SeanMcDowell Good news!!! I reached out to TOB and they got back to me and told me they would surely contact you! Thanks for encouraging a small person like me have a role to play! I love seeing brothers and sisters from different streams of the Faith coming together. I hope it all works! I'll be looking forward to the interview!
@@rebeccadampier1993 Thank you so much for doing that. ! I just heard from them today and we’re trying to set up a time for a discussion. Thank you!
So good. Thank you, all, for this great conversation!
Thankful for Nancy’s work! Saw her interview with MotherBear Apologetics. Her research has truly has helped me identify how Gnosticism has influenced…not only society’s overall perspective of the physical body, but also the church’s view of the body (more than I had realized)!
Thank you for this post
Wow, what a great discussion. Thank you all!
Amazing discussion! Extremely important topic!
I really enjoyed this conversation! It was very thoughtful and helpful. I think it’s so true that we as Christians tend to emphasize our spiritual nature and tend to think badly about our bodies or their functions, instead of seeing it as a core part of our triune being. This conversation has also really helped me in addressing the gender identity issues with others. I never quite thought about the reality that there is a rejection of our bodies many times with that issue. Thanks for the great conversations!
THIS is the way to have a mature, honest, compassionate, thought-provoking, and helpful conversation about this topic in way that is constructive. Thoroughly enjoyed this 👏🏾🤍
exceptional topic and interview
Thank you so much for this!
Really good informative podcast. May our Lord bless you all.
Excellent Interview. Very thought provoking and informative, and necessary for the Church to engage in...
I’m glad to hear!
@@SeanMcDowell if being homosexual is of the spirit then you are carnally minded
I really enjoyed this conversation. Thanks heaps Sean. I'm Catholic but I've benefited heaps from your work and approach!
I really appreciate the Catholic writings on this topic, John Paul II and Jason Evert have excellent books on the topic.
I’m reminded of verses where Jesus was preaching that the body and thought are tightly coupled in regards to sin, and also where Paul says to take every thought captive. This was a great interview and I think the principles shared could also extend to our thoughts and we as Christians should also have a higher view of our minds as well as our bodies.
Well said!
@@SeanMcDowell you can be LGBT and Christian no problem 👬
@Dr. Sean McDowell you worship natural selection adapting your qualities for survival. If you try to save your life, you're going to lose it. You don't have a relationship with God. You're in a relationship with yourself because that's what you're concerned with.
I cannot even begin to express how life giving this conversation was!
It hit every spot for me; theologically, philosophically and even pastorally. It conversations like these that are faithful witnesses to Christianity ✝️. If this episode was the only one to survive for generations to come depicting a biblically authentic understanding of human sexuality-I think it would do the heritage of our faith JUSTICE✊🏿💯💛.
Wow, I’m so glad it was so helpful. Amen!
@Dr. Sean McDowell there's the natural law which is for the natural man, and then there's God's plan for your life. We'll see what God has planned for you
When I discovered that there has been a sacred/secular split ever since Greek thought redeveloped into a way of interpreting the Bible and theology, I have attempted to integrate all of it with the Spirit. The imago Dei is the most important thing about us.
Such a needed conversation!
Great discussion. I’ve not seen Sam Allberry before and enjoyed his insights. Blessings . 😊
He’s GREAT!
@@SeanMcDowell you guys are The Three Amigos of sublimation. One of the letters is for you. You're included.
Excellent content as usual. Thank you for sharing.
The movie Avatar is a great example of the two story error people believe. The avatar may be a physical body that responds in some ways to stimuli, but it’s not a meaningful being until the “person” is uploaded to the avatar. It’s amazing how easy it is for people to believe this duality is real in every whole person. Nancy’s book is so good! I’m still working my way through it. (It is worthy of deep consideration - chewing thoroughly on each chapter.) The Bible clearly agrees with the concept that the person is part of the body and the body part of the person, impossible to isolate one from the other at any point in the life of a human being. Great discussion!! Keep up this vital work!
Very good question...about contraception. Not sure about the redemption of the body, I was of the mind that we will exchange our current one for another better one.
Wow. I was just talking with God about this subject this morning and stumbled upon this. Thanks God. 😊💙
Awesome!
Dr. Sean, bringing this subject into the social arena for discussion as you have here is a great service to Christianity so I want to applaud you for it! Excellent questions as well. In the interest of intellectual charity I would suggest to Ms. Pearcey that a dualistic reading of Aristotle, and by extension, St. Thomas Aquinas, is perhaps an easy conclusion to arrive at by our modern minds on a superficial level, but any Dominican priest worth their salt would put to rest the idea that Thomas' subtlety and depth of thought harbored such a divide. Also, I would invite her to acknowledge that Creation, Fall, Redemption is by no means an insight exclusive to Protestant thinking with respect to Theology of the Body, but rather, the very expository framework employed by JPII. But again, I'm quite thrilled to be seeing TOB gaining purchase among our dear separated brethren in Christ! God Bless!
Great thoughts, thanks! Next I’d like to have a Catholic and protestant in conversation. I tried to reach out to Christopher West but never heard back.
@@SeanMcDowell the Theology of the Body channel by Christopher West almost made convert to Catholicism because I agree 💯 with the Catholics on the theology of the body
@@SeanMcDowell so you're understanding comes through the world and not through a relationship with God. You're a pagan.
Wonderful video Sean! I love the videos that you are doing regarding this particular issue. Just an FYI, when you describe "theology of the body" as being a distinctly "catholic" theology I would agree. However, if there are protestant concerns with accepting anything remotely catholic I would also make the distinction that there are other tradtions that are "catholic" that are not specifically "Roman Catholic." Lutherans and (most) Anglicans are also catholic. I am a lutheran and I think that you would benefit greatly from turning to some lutheran sources on this matter since this doctrine aligns perfectly with the lutheran confessions of faith. Thanks again for thee video!
David wrote in one of my favorite Psalms, I am fearfully and wonderfully
made and my soul knows right well
Psalm 139
Thank you to all three of you. Really enjoyed listening.
Great dialogue! I am glad to hear that TOB Institute has answered back and I cannot wait to see Dr. McDowell and Christopher West together. Regarding unnatural birth control: we, Catholics, are called to invite Jesus to our marriage life in all aspects. We better know that God is watching us during intimate acts and we should be in a state of grace when doing so. My wife is my sacrament, a channel to receive Jesus graces, And both of us should give ourselves fully without holding anything back (physically, emotionally, spiritually). Fulton Sheen said it best: marriage involves three persons: husband, wife, and Jesus.
Thanks!
Excellent and insightful discussion. With regard to one of Sam Allberry's points, the call for diversity in the boardroom is about ensuring equality of opportunity to those who might otherwise be excluded by virtue of their gender, colour etc and not I would have thought an argument to suggest that people bring some unique contribution to the Boardroom simply by virtue of their gender. colour etc ?
Love Sam!!! Will have to check out Nancy!
I’m astonished not about the theme of this video but on how someone can convert to Christianity in Switzerland.
I remember Sean McDowell from his talk pretending to be an Atheist.
Great interview and I hope you do more about the same subject.
I'm troubled, however, that both authors so easily dismissed the historic Christian taboo against birth control (until1921). Or rather; didn't even address it.
Excellent insight. This was my first experience with Nancy Pearcey and I was very impressed with what she had to say. I love Sam Alberry and the work he’s doing. I think this really complements Inspiring Philosophy’s recent video: What Christians Get Wrong about Sex.
I LOVE Sam Allberry!!! While I do not suffer with same sex attraction, his talk on this is PHENOMENAL!!! 100% Biblical and applicable really to all sin...This whole talk is so great. All of you are so anointed to speak and explain the truth. Love this!!
There was a question about certain sexual acts in marriage; it seems to have been removed from the video. Was that due to TH-cam guidelines or for some other reason? I had to listen to the whole video again to be sure, but there’s about 5 minutes missing.
3:45 Spirit good; body bad. That’s exactly what I was taught. It’s a form of Gnosticism.
I wonder what the panelists think about yoga.
Sean, you really need to read the book "The Theology of the Body" by Pope John Paul. This is a blessed filled book that draws it out perfectly.
I have…and love it! Just interviewed Christopher West, who popularized the work by JP.
Dr. Sean, Have you heard of Theology of the Body by St. John Paul II? I suggest you look it up. :)
Yea its great!
Excelente, me gustó.
When you speak of the "Theology of the Body" of the Catholic Church, are you referring specifically to Pope John Paul II's writing on this subject? It's a powerful and beautiful document.
Yes, primarily
@@SeanMcDowell yes if you fit into the pattern of the world you will be happier and healthier. You worship the God of this world.
@@dansaber8435 how
Legenda para o português! Please!
just a quick response while driving..
Wow! That last question was totally unexpected, but Nancy's answer was amazing, I wish I heard that when I first became a Christian at the age of 26 as this was asked of me by a co-worker, but I lacked the tact of Nancy's answer and lost a friend.
Our bodies are temples of our soul. So that means we need to respect ourselves and others.
The longer I live on this earth the more I appreciate the physical world, which includes our bodies. I think young Christians particularly tend to talk in terms of physical and spiritual, the latter being more important, when in fact both are important. God, after all, made us physical and to live in a physical universe. Even our ultimate destination is not living in a cloud in some spiritual existence, but on a renewed physical earth.
Regarding body image, the apostle Paul said 'Noone hates their own body'. That was no doubt true for 1st century mankind, with its distinct lack of mirrors, but it's not true now. Children from young ages are being given false, and often nasty, messages about their bodies which they take into adulthood. I would certainly say the computer age has also encouraged this, with its portrayal of, for example, well-endowed men!
The Catholic Church teaches an integrated view of the person both body and soul. We know that our bodies are sacred. We cannot worship God merely in the abstract or in our thoughts but it is in and through our bodies that we live our faith and worship. Catholics have the Sacraments, outward signs instituted by Christ to give us graces. Though Christ gives us graces even when we do not feel it, yet He especially manifests His graces in ways that engage our senses. Catholics understand that the senses of smell, sight, hearing, taste, touch are engaged in the Sacraments where we encounter God. In the Eucharist we taste with our own tongue the Flesh and Blood of Christ Our Lord in the accidents of bread and wine at Holy Communion. In the Extreme Unction we are anointed with oil on our forehead, eyelids, etc. We feel the healing touch on our flesh. At Confession we audibly hear the voice of the priest telling us ,in persona Christi, "I forgive you of your sins..." "Ego te absolvo a peccatis tuis..." We have processions where we process revered images of Christ or the Virgin Mary or the Blessed Sacrament. We use incense in Mass. Etc. And we believe that male and female bodies are designed differently complementing each other for the purpose of sacred matrimony for the good of the couple and for creating children.
Love Sam Allberry’s pastoral approach!
Amen!
@@SeanMcDowell so what was the fall and what would be a renewing of your mind? Simple question
I was never taught soul good, body bad in the Presbyterian church in the South. Is it the Baptists who are taught that? I see Roman Catholics acting so spiritual in mass but so naughty in class.
Our bodies are the temple of God. We should treat our bodies accordingly and with high respect according to His Commandments, ordnances, judgements, and statutes. The Torah gives us guidance
i agree with them actually on most.excuse me
I just really can't get behind the take of hey if you're married you should have kids when A LOT of people just cannot legit afford one. 64% of Americans live paycheck to paycheck, 45% don't have a savings account, and 51% of those who do have less than $1000 in it. And it doesn't look like it's going to get better any time soon. Saying hey you're married you need to feel obligated to have children is so damaging. And people don't want one for various other reasons, some of which are completely valid. I agree with most of what you preach Sean, but in this I take a firm no.
Im convinced you're trying to have civil constructed conversation. You've won me over, if you ever need a norse pagan's opinion hmu. Or if you need audio video help. I've hosted a podcast for 4 years and stream often
Just want to point out that birth control pills are not only used for actual birth control. It helps regulate menstrual cycles, endometriosis, PMS, PMDD, and ovarian cyst prevention to name a few. Labeling it as toxic is a bit extreme. It's a medicine so people will have different side effects, but it wouldn't be still in production if they were so harmful. And the vast majority are of progesterone and estrogen (two hormones that naturally occur in the body) tweaked to different levels.
It is used to mask symptoms, not treat to heal. Sadly, many women are put on BC and never find out they could have had relief from symptoms through lifestyle changes.
The separation of body and spirit was a Greek idea adopted to Christianity from Aristoteles and Plato. Genesis and overall jewish thinking however holds the position that soul is best defined as a living body. Soul or spirit therefore is indistinguihable from the body and body is not mearly a shell for soul to inhabit but an integral part of the soul.
Even cybernetics scientists have had to come to the conclusion that they can not make general purpose AI capable of perception unless it is embodied with a real physical body
While I enjoyed this interview by Mr. McDowell, I was so disappointed in his decision to interview the lesbian. To me, a ‘civil discussion’ should have defined parameters. I did not need to have the language, the images, the ideas spoken by this person. She was so unrepentant, so proud of her sin. I don’t feel Mr. McDowell was wisely stewarding his Christian platform. I was so very disappointed!
id love nothing more than to debate you if you believe in this sex part also.
Bearhug thy chronic thorn in the flesh calling.
the prophets prophesied about the laws be written on our hearts and our minds. yes there is a battle, however be of good cheer for he who is in us is not only greater than he who is in the world but also has OVERCOME the world!!
Nancy, don’t you think that a woman will experience more pleasure at the time of the month when she is fertile? As for vasectomies, I have been told that some are reversible. If a Christian woman is allowed to have her tubes tied, why is it not Christian for a man to have a vasectomy?
Onced (ahem) "the Church" LEARNS that a "over spitirualazation" issues, such as "rapture", which gives NO "push back" against the adversaries of the Kingdom of God? And is actually a "tool" OF the adversaries? We can THEN start making STANDS that sends the message that "Believers are NOT 2nd class flesh units!" And we WILL turn ploughshares into swords!" 👍
The following quote from Stephen L. Harris, Professor Emeritus of Humanities and Religious Studies at California State University- Sacramento, completes this point with a devastating argument.
*Jesus did not accomplish what Israel’s prophets said the Messiah was commissioned to do:* He did not deliver the covenant people from their Gentile enemies, reassemble those scattered in the Diaspora, restore the Davidic kingdom, or establish universal peace (cf.Isa. 9:6-7; 11:7-12:16, etc.). Instead of freeing Jews from oppressors and thereby fulfilling God’s ancient promises-for land, nationhood, kingship, and blessing- *Jesus died a “shameful” death, defeated by the very political powers the Messiah was prophesied to overcome.* Indeed, the Hebrew prophets did not foresee that Israel’s savior would be executed as a common criminal by Gentiles, *making Jesus’ crucifixion a “stumbling block” to scripturally literate Jews.* (1 Cor.1:23)
------------------------------------------------------------------
The end is near?
*The Bible’s New Testament contains a drumbeat of promises that Jesus is ready to return any day now, implying that it will happen so soon that it would be wise to keep it in mind when making any kind of life decision. But it didn’t happen.* The following is a sample of verses professing this theme:
Matt 10:23: [Jesus said to his disciples] *‘When they persecute you in one town, flee to the next;* ***for truly, I say to you, you will not have gone through all the towns of Israel, before the Son of man comes’.*** (They fled through the towns but the Son of Man never came)
Matt 16:28: [Jesus said to the disciples], *‘Truly, I say to you,* ***there are some standing here*** *who will not taste death* before they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom’.
Mark 9:1: And he [Jesus] said to them [the disciples], *‘Truly, I say to you,* ***there are some standing here*** *who will not taste death* before they see that the kingdom of God has come with power’.
Mark 13:30: *[After detailing events up to end of world, Jesus says]* ‘Truly, I say to you, ***this generation will not pass away*** *before all these things take place’.*
Mark 14:62: And Jesus said ***[to the high priest - died 1st cent. AD]*** ‘You will see the Son of man seated at the right hand of Power, and coming with the clouds of heaven’. (The high priest died and never saw the Son of Man)
Rom 13:12: The day is *at hand.*
1 Cor 7:29: The appointed time has grown very short; from now on, *let those who have wives live as though they had none.* (Funny thing to say if you didn’t think the end was imminent)
1 Cor 7:31: For the form of this world is *passing away.*
Phil 4:5: The Lord is *coming soon.*
1 Thess 4:15: *We who are alive, who are left* until the coming of the Lord.
Hebrews 1:2: *In these last days* he has spoken to us by a Son.
Hebrews 10:37: For yet a little while, and the coming one shall come and *shall not tarry.*
James 5:8: The coming of the Lord is *at hand.*
1 Peter 1:20: He [Christ] was destined before the foundation of the world but was made manifest at the *end of the times.*
1 Peter 4:7: The end of all things is *at hand.*
1 John 2:18: *It is the last hour;* and as you have heard that antichrist is coming.
Rev 1:1: The revelation of Jesus Christ (i.e., the end of the world)…to show to his servants what must *soon take place.*
Rev 3:11: [Jesus said] ‘I am *coming soon’.*
Rev 22:6: And the Lord…has sent his angel to show his servants what must *soon take place.*
Rev 22:20: [Jesus said] ‘Surely I am *coming soon’.*
*It is puzzling to understand why Christianity survived the failure of this prediction. It is not ambiguous.* This would be like a rich uncle who promises to give you $10,000 ‘very soon.’ Ten years pass and he still hasn’t given anything to you, but he still says he will do it very soon. Would you still believe that it will happen any day? No, you would realize that it is a false promise. *For some reason, Christians cannot comprehend that they have been scammed. Jesus is not coming back, not tomorrow, not next year, not ever. But they still think it will happen any day.*
www.kyroot.com/
*Watch* Jesus: Apocalyptic Prophet, Historical Lecture - Bart D. Ehrman on TH-cam
Google *"13x Jesus was wrong in the Bible - Life Lessons"*
Google *"End Times - Evil Bible .com"*
Google *"The End of All Things is At Hand - The Church Of Truth"*
Google *"Resurrection - Fact or Myth - Omission Report"*
Google *"What’s Missing from Codex Sinaiticus, the Oldest New Testament? - Biblical Archaeology Society"*
Google *"The “Strange” Ending of the Gospel of Mark and Why It Makes All the Difference - Biblical Archaeology Society"*
Google *"ex-apologist: On One of the Main Reasons Why I Think Christianity is False (Reposted)"*
Google *"Why Jesus? Nontract (August 1999) - Freedom From Religion Foundation"*
Google *"272: JESUS’S 5200 AUTHENTIC WORDS - zingcreed"*
Google *"43: IS THE FOURTH GOSPEL FICTION? - zingcreed"*
Google *"Jesus Predicted a First Century Return Which Did Not Occur - by Alex Beyman - Medium"*
Google *"Jesus’ Failed Prophecy About His Return - Black Nonbelievers, Inc."*
In the 70's, I got involved with sex ed in the age of HIV. The foundation of sex ed back then was a preventative message re STDs and pregnancy. Then...I ran into Pope John Paul's "Theology of the Body." It broke open for me the great truths of God's creation of us as humans...both body and soul. This is an amazing writing. It is a challenging read, but it is worth it. Thankfully, it is now finally becoming a view of God's purpose for creating us as male/female embraced by Nancy and Sam and the general Christian community.
I wondered where Justice Sotomayor got that crazy idea that an unborn baby is like a brain dead person. Now I understand but, rather than excusing her, it turns me even more seriously against the Roman Catholic Church.
1. God breaths into the body he had formed from mud, and "he became a living soul." The body with the spirit is, together, the soul. The enlightenment deification of Reason splits body and mind leading to the "brain in the wrong body" argument, which unsurprisingly comes out of universities where the mind is idolised. We should not repeat the error by splitting body and soul, which is an error of the Church, which (surprise!) emphasises the spiritual.
2. "Go forth an multiply" is the first commandment. As Protestants we have neglected to observe the civilisational catastrophe of our individual decisions to not reproduce. The others have made the same error, but we have the bible, so we should have known better.
3. Marriage equality is an obvious untruth, based merely on the sterility of homosexuality. The proportion of homosexuals in the population vs the size of the argument even in countries where civil partnerships already granted equal rights, indicates that it was never about righting an injustice. The argument was a subversive ideological one, upholding universal moral equality as a reality, undermined only by oppressive forces, which can be mitigated by government power. Once you have denigrated the continuation of humanity as "good", abortion and euthanasia are on the cards, profitable war can be waged, you can justify killing people you consider to be "bad" because they have no inherent value.
According to the King James man don't have a soul, he is a soul. And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul. Gen 2: 7 KJV
It's really interesting listening to good people try to justify the harm that there 2,000 year old book says.
You wrote,
"It's really interesting listening to good people try to justify the harm that there 2,000 year old book says."
And what harm is that?
@@hwd7 "And what harm is that?"
You never learnt about the Crusades?
The various disgusting inquisitions?
The oppression and bloody history of christianity? (Why do you think that Bloody Mary was called Bloody Mary?)
The vile Magdalene laundries?
The church's opposition to learning about how the human body works, and the resultant death and misery, from Burke and Hare to unnecessary deaths due to a lack of progress?
The lies about condoms spreading AIDS, the general opposition to family planning (despite the biggest threat to complex life on the planet being down to there being too many humans)?
The intimidation of women trying to get abortions (something, btw, that he biblical gods were _fine with,_ even carrying them out, themselves IF you believe the bible bullshit)?
The verbal and physical abuse of people who came out as Atheists?
The Atheists who lost their jobs as a result of their lack of belief in the infantile, idiotic, illogical, immoral, inconsistent, impossible biblical gods?
The verbal and physical abuse of people who came out as anything other than straight?
The bastard child of Judaism and christianity, and all the misery and mayhem that that's causing? (We could write pages on the insanity of that evil cult, alone).
The catholic church (and other churches) not only covering up priests abusing children, but even trying to smear the victims' characters?
The fuckwittery of this guy and twats like him:
th-cam.com/video/t4cO1sJtCSo/w-d-xo.html
The dangers posed by cretinous groups like the End Timers?
The holding back of the US education system as a result of imbecilic religious beliefs?
The damage to the environment due to policies controlled by men with the minds of children, who use the bible, and the Noah's Ark myth to defend doing nothing help?
Maybe, also, you've never met people who carry the psychological, and sometimes also physical scars, from others having these backward beliefs, but I have.
Maybe you've never met people who have lost loved ones, as a result of these backward beliefs, but I have. *The damage is very, very real!*
Oh this list could be much, much longer, and I'm sure I've forgotten a few issues, but hopefully you get the point?
@@hwd7 Well, I'm specifically talking about them trying to justify their harmful beliefs against gay and trans people. The lack of acceptance of both groups has obvious detrimental effects on gay, and especially trans people. But instead of allowing people to be who they are and, in the case of trans people, get the medical help that would improve their lives, they have to try and justify all the harm their beliefs do.
@@pineapplepenumbra You need to prove that those were taught and praticed by the founder of Christianity, The Lord Jesus Christ.
You cannot judge a belief on its heretics, but its adherents.
@@hwd7 "You need to prove that those were taught..."
I'm not interested in the No True Scotsman or any other Logical Fallacies.
Also, didn't you read the OP properly?
"the harm that there 2,000 year old book says." (sic).
It refers to the _book,_ not Jesus, _but_ if the bible really was from a god, it wouldn't contain anything that could be so easily misinterpreted, would it?
One argument that proves the qur'an not to be from a god is that the _results_ of the qur'an effectively _refute_ the qur'an, ie, any intelligent person, let alone a god, would foresee at least some of the damage such a book would cause, and thus would cause a _different book_ to be written. The same charge can be laid against the bible.
Btw, some of the damage caused by the bible was directly due to some words allegedly* spoken by Jesus.
For example the verses about hating one's family, verses used by cults to cut people off from family and friends.
No doubt there are many more, but just one example of the words attributed to Jesus being damaging are all that's needed to make the case.
* I say "allegedly" as we've got no proof that Jesus even existed, or wasn't a composite character, like Moses and Abraham were, let alone what he _actually said,_ if he did exist, as there are *no contemporary mentions* of Jesus, which, if he was doing what the gospels claim, would be very strange.
*Totally* agree with Sam's point on inconsistencies re: the gender question! 👏 👏👏
Sam is really sharp!
@@SeanMcDowell listening to it again today, and he really is! Some brilliant points made in this by both speakers 👍👍
@@SeanMcDowell "Sam is really sharp!
But not, it seems, sharp enough to notice that the bible is little more than a Chain Letter on steroids.
@@SeanMcDowell just finished the video. You three are the enemies of God.
Sean is a juvenile believer. You need to read these ridiculous books? The Apostle Paul speaks specifically about the body and God given sexual expression.
"When we say…Jesus Christ…was produced without sexual union, and was crucified and died, and rose again, and ascended to heaven, ***we propound nothing new or different*** *from what you believe regarding those whom you call Sons of God. [In fact]…if anybody objects that [Jesus] was crucified, this is in* ***common*** *with the sons of Zeus (as you call them) who suffered, as previously listed [he listed Dionysus, Hercules, and Asclepius].* Since their fatal sufferings are all narrated as not similar but different, so his unique passion should not seem to be any worse."
*Note how Justin (Martyr) is less of a fool than modern Christian apologists. He admits that differences don’t matter.* Since each and every one of the suffering and dying gods are slain by different means, one cannot argue the mytheme requires exactly the same means of death. “But Osiris can’t have inspired the Jesus myth because Osiris wasn’t nailed to a cross” is a stupid argument. The mytheme is simply death. Being killed. Suffering and dying. The exact mode of death can vary freely. It makes no difference to the existence and influence of the mytheme. It’s simply the particular instantiation of a generic abstraction. *And Justin’s argument (that Satan invented these fake religions to confuse people) entails Justin agreed the mytheme existed: indeed, it was demonically promulgated, multiple times. Intentionally.*
*Likewise, Justin notices the mytheme is not virgin birth, but sexless conception. Of which many examples had already been popularized in pagan mythology (there just happens to also have been examples of actual virgin born gods as well). And by his argument (that the Devil was deliberately emulating the Jesus mytheme, in advance), Justin clearly accepted the same principle for “rising again” after death:* the particular exact metaphysics of the resurrection could, like the exact method of death or conception, vary freely. The mytheme consists solely of the abstraction: returning to life. Somehow. Some way. We will say bodily, at the very least. But what sort of body (the same one, a new one, a mortal one, an immortal one), didn’t matter. *If it had, Justin would have made the argument that “those gods” weren’t really resurrected. But that argument, never occurs to him. Nor did it to any other apologist of the first three centuries.*
*Ancient Christians well knew there was nothing new about their dying-and-rising god. Not in respect to the mytheme.* Their claims were solely that his particular instantiation of it was better, and the only one that actually happened. *They didn’t make up the stupid modern arguments that dying-and-rising god myths didn’t exist or weren’t part of a common mytheme everyone knew about. For example, in the same century, Tertullian, in Prescription against Heretics 40, makes exactly the same argument as Justin. Funny that. They had better access to the evidence than we do. They knew what was really and widely the case. We should listen to them.*
Google *"Dying-and-Rising Gods: It's Pagan, Guys. Get Over It. • Richard Carrier"*
------------------------------------------------------------------
Google *"Ehrman Errs: Yes, Bart, There Were Dying & Rising Gods - atheologica"*
Watch *"Dying & Rising Gods: A Response to William Lane Craig"* by Derreck Bennett at Atheologica.
Watch *"Asclepius: The Pre-Christian Healer & Savior"* by Derreck Bennett at Atheologica
Google *"Virgin Birth: It's Pagan, Guys. Get Over It. • Richard Carrier"*
Google *"5 Pagan Parallels to Jesus That Actually Aren’t Bullshit - Atheomedy"*
Google *"Christian Apologetics: The Art of Deceit - Atheomedy"*
Google *"Defending the Resurrection: It’s Easy if You Lie! - Atheomedy"*
Google *"Majority of Scholars agree: The Gospels were not written by Eyewitnesses - Escaping Christian Fundamentalism"*
A good site written by an actual Biblical scholar.
Google *"Contradictions in the Bible | Identified verse by verse and explained using the most up-to-date scholarly information about the Bible, its texts, and the men who wrote them -- by Dr. Steven DiMattei"*
Google *"How do we know that the biblical writers were* ***not*** *writing history? -- by Dr Steven DiMattei"*
Also:
Google *"How Did The Gospel Writers Know? - The Doston Jones Blog"*
Google *"Yes, the Four Gospels Were Originally Anonymous: Part 1 - The Doston Jones Blog"*
Google *"Gospels Not Written By Matthew, Mark, Luke or John - The Church Of Truth"*
We are born SINNERS this is why the flesh is so wicked. We have a falling nature.
Thanks for hosting this. A thought I had was that we need a theology of pleasure because the argument against sexual minorities that leverages the "purpose" of sexual biology seems flawed. 1. From what I understand numerous other animal species display homosexual behavior despite having a complementary system for reproduction similar to humans. Aquinas wrote with some perplexity about homosexual behavior in hares from what I understand. We could talk about the fall, but that's an argument from authority. 2. Sexuality also clearly serves functions beyond procreation, pair-bonding, etc. It is the only natural way to procreate, but the presence of a potential doesn't automatically create an imperative. As a human being I have the capacity/potential to learn every language on earth. I haven't met the person that would argue that I MUST learn them if I am to become who I was made to be.
LOL - sexual minorities
A discussion that I've been a part of recently has to do with the prevalence of pornography, and the sexualised view of the body. The Genesis 2 account of human creation says we were created in the image of God and gendered. The verse is a poem which means that both the image of God and gender are part of the same thing. I believe that physical human anatomy visibly reveals what the invisible God is like. The "one flesh" of marriage is supposed to show us what the unity in the Trinity is like. Artists like Michaelangelo saw the wonder of that image when he painted the Sistine Chapel ceiling. When God made us in his image he was painting a self portrait. Porn is like taking to the Mona Lisa with a marker pen.
Why is it respectful to god to not have sex when you fancy it so that you don’t get pregnant.
If you never marry you can never have Sex before Marriage. Problem solved, god loves me.
Clever.
God does love you, but doesn’t love your sin. Christ was sinless and is the person we cling to for salvation he was able to overcome sin because he was fully God. He was able to sympathize with our weaknesses because he was fully human. Death is the punishment for sin, and Christ died willingly in our place to pay the penalty for our sin and bring us back to God. Cling to the person of Jesus and trust him as if you would a parachute 🪂 don’t jump out of the plane without one… you may not understand the physics of how a parachute works but you trust it works and will save you from a sure death if you jumped without it. Jesus’ perfect sinless record is our parachute whenever you are tempted to flap your arms in order to save yourself thinking if you lived your life as a good person you will save yourself remember that yes we can compare ourself to other humans and look “better” than them morally, but if we compare ourselves to Christ we look like hitler. When we meet God one day - and it is certain that we will, weather you believe in him or not, you will meet him… please put on the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved. Do not trust in your good works to be saved because our works are like filthy rags always corrupted by the self.
Just as light casts out darkness in an instant when it’s flicked on so shall we be cast out of the light (Christ) if the Holy Spirit does not dwell within us. Light cannot cast out light 💡 but light will always cast out darkness.make sure you accept the light of the world who is Jesus, accept the life Christ lived the death he died and the defeat of death through the resurrection when you do, your heart of stone will become a heart of flesh and the light (Holy spirit) will dwell within you.
A person is only a sinner if and when they accept God's law as a believer. The first sin means only the soul can go to heaven, if we accept all sin is unrighteousness, and redeem our bodies from sin then our soul goes to heaven.
Rather than looking at the views of secular people who are clearly on the edge, take a look at the British Humanist website and you will understand why we love life so much. This is the only life that we know for certain we will have, so of course we live for every moment and have the desire to leave the world a better place than when we joined. I really hate the way this woman talks ‘even seculars think’ ….
I’m in England and almost everyone is atheist/ agnostic. I only know one Christian. I have 3 children in their 20s. All of the people that I know of that age are very thoughtful. They are not obsessed with being in a sexual relationship. I am so grateful that they do not have to worry about being sinful. ( sin does not exist) They are so aware of putting others above the self and making the world a better place.
The one Christian that I know has 2 daughters . One with an eating disorder , one with depression. You can’t put all mental health issues on the non Christian world. And for atheists who were once Christian the biggest mental health concern is hell. They can’t get it out of their head. Christians telling their kids that they may go to hell are committing child abuse, playing terribly with their minds.
Unbelievable as it may seem, this life is not the only one we will have. The purpose of this present life is for us to know and love the true God through His Son Christ Jesus Our Lord and to learn to love our fellow human beings as we love ourselves. Love which is not a feeling but an act of the will to want the good of a person and to be willing to sacrifice for his good. That is what life here is all about. And, unfortunately, there is such a thing called sin. If we look around us we can see it everywhere in actions that are uncharitable and disordered. That is why Christ came to save us from our sins and the consequences sin brings us. God bless you and your loved ones.
Regarding euthanasia I have mixed feelings. For most people it is because of actual or likely physical and mental suffering experienced by an individual that they follow that path. Nancy Pearcey seemed to make a link between that and viewing the body as just a body if, for example, there is cognitive decline. I dont see that. It's simply an individual wanting their suffering to end. And Im now not sure it's for others to say to that individual - well you'll just have to continue living like that - when others may not be able to even perceive the level of suffering they are experiencing.
Ive thought recently about Jesus' suffering and death on the cross. He clearly suffered extreme physical, mental and spiritual pain and anguish for hours. But just hours. And it recently occurred to me that He chose when that suffering would end, earlier than that experienced by the other crucified men. It seems He saw there was no point in unnecessary suffering, but once he was able to say 'It is finished' he allowed himself to die, quickly. I think that should colour our thinking on the issue.
@Katrinap The NT is clear that Jesus paid for our sins 'in the body'. He did not descend to 'hell' - that is an expression in a creed (probably added centuries later) and many Christians dont believe it is backed up by Scripture. Even the word translated 'hell' in the creed is Hades, which in Greek thought is simply the abode of the dead. Jesus' suffering ended on the cross when He exclaimed "It is finished" and then died. I am not diminishing His suffering, but the Bible is clear that His physical suffering and death ('by His blood') was the price of our sins.
My point remains - He did not prolong His suffering but once He had accomplished His work on the cross, He chose to end it and die.
@Katrinap 'you’re only focusing on the awfulness of physical pain without looking at its purpose of testing and strengthening faith. I’m not sure there’s a such thing as unnecessary physical suffering.'
I dont accept that physical suffering always has a purpose of testing and strengthening faith. Firstly, if someone has no faith then there's nothing to test or strengthen. And secondly, why did Jesus bother to heal anyone of physical disease and end their suffering if the purpose of that suffering was to strengthen their faith?! Indeed, Jesus made it clear that satan was often involved in their suffering, and He was stopping him. To see physical pain and suffering in a blanket way for testing and strengthening is, quite frankly, nonsense.
Toxic chemicals Nancy! Not a chemist I guess?
I'll bet this all goes back to Gnosticism and also Plato.
If "matter is evil" and the body is physical matter, then the body is evil and spirit is "higher". -- and pleasure has been a sin ever since.
At around 24:00 Allberry actually appears to argue that God fearfully and wonderfully makes men be attracted to men.
Listen again. That's not what he said or implied.
@@chelsiedyer809 yeah, that's where his false theology leads.
@@chelsiedyer809 yep, agree. That's not what he says at all.
@@DefenderoftheCross are you as passionate about all sin including your own.
@@jld4870 Red herring.
I saw a young man yesterday with a shirt that said "Virginity Rocks." Was good to see this hope in a sea of degradation.
That’s a popular shirt. Unfortunately it’s sarcasm.
@@markt4281 that is a bummer.
Aaah but those who believe in the holiness and love of our savior will view it as beautiful!
Trying to teach Abstinence has proven to be a complete failure.
A more mature, practical, realistic approach is to teach young people about safe sex, that and empathy (something you have to abandon, to be properly religious), and _respect_ for the opposite gender, again, something that the bible doesn't do when it comes to women, despite all the claims from apologetics that it does.
@@jld4870 "and love of our savior"
You shouldn't really use words if you don't understand them properly.
REAL, TRUE love isn't conditional (cue all the weak apologetics arguments, trying to defend the indefensible, like "oh, don't you believe that bad people should be punished" and similar puerile, ill thought out nonsense).
actually theres only one big sin and its not idolatry.
What is it?