I can confirm that this is true as someone who has never played Smash, watched maybe 4 matches, and have never watched gameplay footage and didn't even realize until you just pointed it out that these videos were made by one of the "gods" of Smash. The fact is, the videos are just interesting and well done, and they explain just the right amount about the game that a non Smash player like myself can follow them, but also don't go into so much detail that a person familiar with competitive gaming, and specifically FGC, doesn't find it boring and repetitive.
I think another point for Sheik being less hated was Sheik was incredibly skillful and expressive. If smash 4 kept sheik as the best i genuinely think it would be remembered as a significantly better game
Sheik also lost her grab 50 50 kill confirm so had to rely on the f tilt 50 50. She got nerfed but bayo was ridiculous throughout. Bayo shoukdve been banned and so should steve
I feel like nobody talks about how prevalent Cloud was in Smash 4 doubles. It genuinely killed the viewing experience for me seeing at least 2 to 3, sometimes 4 Clouds in each match. I remember there was a Google docs study showing that Cloud in doubles was more prevalent than Bayo singles. I wish I could remember the figures, but it was like 80% of top 64 / top 32 had Cloud within the last few years of Smash 4's life. Bayo might've ended Smash 4, but Cloud ended doubles before Bayo even came out.
Yup this is true. Cloud was ridiculous. I played cloud myself and 100% advocated for a ban on him in doubles, not even like a 1 cloud Limit like a straight up ban
There is a reason I like to think Shiek was never hated, at least to the same degree as Bayo anyways. Sheik still felt like she was playing Smash 4. Either finding a grab for guaranteed early damage, or chipping away at your opponent past 20-30% so that her combos/advantage can finally do its thing. Bayonetta felt like she was playing in her game of origin, and you are the unfortunate cpu enemy getting hit with a 20 hit combo that kills you in the process.
Crazy thing is that even though she got nerfed into the ground in Ultimate, she’s still fairly viable competitively. At her core, her combos are still there, they just took out the busted kill of the top combo which I feel is well deserved cause it was too easy to perform and killed way too early. She’s one of my secondaries besides my mains Ken and Joker but man is she extremely fun once you get her down in her new state.
I hate the extra landing lag for every special that is used, even when you land without using an aerial. It just made her feel so clunky. She plays like she has serious menstrual health issues but refuses to go to the doctor.
For some reason they decided to up the lag for her using her specials but didn't make her grounded normals remain the same way so she can pressure just like the other characters. In smash 4 she didn't have special lag until she used 2 or more special moves not 1. However, in ult once she uses 1 special move she has a yrs worth of lag. @@yungmuney5903
3:46 You have to take in consideration that ssbu's roster is 89 and smash 4 is just 51. For ultimate, if all characters are represented equally, there would be 1,1% frequency for any given character, conversely 2,0% for smash 4. So the frequenct for beyonetta is 13,6%/2,0% = 6,8 times the average and steve is 4,4%/1,1% = 4 times. So really beyo was more like 2 times more frequent than steve when taking into account the different sizes of the rosters.
Though this is true, I still think mentionning the 3x factor gives you a better picture in this case, cause that’s how it feels for the viewers and the players. When you watch a tournament overwhelmed with Bayo’s, you won’t consider how many you had to expect.
Taking in account Pokémon Trainer and Pyra/Mythra, the correct roster number is 86. 1/86 is closer to 1.2%, and 4.4% / 1.2% is 3.6. So yeah, Bayonetta being twice as successful as Steve is correct… for now.
I welcome vids like this, retrospective critical looks at smash, always nice to have so competitive scene can learn and improve on how to handle these kinds of situations
I think Bayo would have been banned following that Evo grand final if Smash Ultimate hadn't been announced and had a release date by then. Since the new game was coming though, I think everyone just collectively decided to put up with it for a bit longer and then left Smash 4 behind.
Which is a shame tbh. I wish they just fucking banned her because the game was genuinely very cool outside of her imo. Like Rosa and sonic were kinda lame sure but honestly they were way less obnoxious and lame than like at least a handful of the meta characters in ultimate
3:45 This 4.35% vs 14% comparison is pretty flawed. Not only does it not take into account that Ultimate has over 30 more characters to spread that distribution over, but it also glosses over what he mentioned literally one minute prior that late 2018 was when many non-Bayo players were either taking a break from the game or selling out to the Bayonetta pick. He's comparing the state of late-2018 Smash 4, a game soon to be replaced, to 2023 Ultimate, a game with no sequel in sight. Overall just a very sensationalist statistic, and it (along with other parts of the video) just substantiates the idea that you should probably only watch videos looking back on Smash 4 created by people who made the game their first priority in its prime.
I always think about how at the time there were people at my (at the time) college who would set up a tv and Wii U to play smash 4, and I ended up stopping by most days to play with them. It was a lot of fun to watch and play, and since some of the people who set it up played seriously, I was able to get their advice to improve at the game as characters I liked. Then, one of the serious players started playing Bayonetta all the time to "practice". Since they used a "best two out of three, winner stays in loser drops out" system, this guy naturally ended up playing pretty much the whole time, just using the same broken combos to steamroll anyone who played against him. As you can imagine, this meant that playing the game meant just getting destroyed by the same character using the same techniques that you'd have basically no chance of countering, and watching anyone else play was just watching the same character beating everybody the exact same way (I realized pretty quickly the only time it was ever exciting was when he started losing). As you can imagine, I just kind of ended up trailing off on showing up there, since the only way I'd get anything out of it would be if I seriously picked up Cloud for the sole purpose of trying to counter Bayonetta, and obviously that didn't interest me. It's really interesting to me in retrospect how that ended up as my own little microcosm of what Bayo did to Smash 4's scene.
I think my favorite moment of the smash scene with smash 4 is that this clearly oppressive character was never banned, yet they decide to ban the miis because "oh they can change their specials even though changing characters does the same thing, and mii brawler has a kill confirm!!!!" This fanbase is not very bright.
@@twelvenation6393 Doing big damage =/= op, not even viable especially with early ult bayo, bayo severely struggles to kill outside of backair, her forwardair extensions kept bayos combos, while still long, closer to the middle of the screen, which to the knockback nerfs of both upair and feels like fair, she didnt have anything to kill reasonably unles she got you out there at the percent she can combo AND kill at reasonably, she cant kill early because her options are rediculously slow, and she cant combo at high percents due to the changes of up b and side b practically killing some higher percent routes. And good riddance, she has alot, but she doesnt have everything now, her edge gaurding is great, having holdable aireals really helps with that, but youre much less likely to get touch of deathed by bayo, and even less likely to die at higher percents off a combo
@@4days604 I play Lucas and she can trap me in a combo right off the rip with 76% damage every single time. She’s way too OP just the fact you can’t escape it
I for sure think Bayo would’ve been banned had ultimate not already been announced, I remember cloud bans in doubles were being tested quite frequently despite the looming presence of ultimate
6:06 To be fair, DK had an awful matchup against Yoshi back in Smash 4 so that could have been why DKWill chose Sheik in that set. I doubt that it had to do with just Sheik being the best character in S4 back then haha.
Raptor is also my crewmate, and I knew he disliked fighting Sheik. My strategy was to camp with needles bc I didn't know the S4 Yoshi matchup that well yet and I knew if I went DK I would have gotten wrecked at the time lol. Yoshi feels like a matchup that I have to relearn each game bc they keep buffing the character haha. Eventually I go back and play it again with DK when I'm more comfy.
Man I miss Smash 4 Sheik so much. I understand why she got the changes she did, but she was such a cool top tier in that game. Great video. You're really good at writing this type of stuff.
I love this style of video, and having a person so important and knowledgeable about the community like you makes them so worth it. Keep up the awesome work!
Such an interesting and important topic to cover in Smash history. I remember hearing about how bad people hated Bayonetta in Smash 4 online, it got to the point where I actually felt good that I was genuinely terrible with her and mained a mid tier character instead (Lucas). For a similar video, I would like to see a video like this be made for Brawl Meta Knight (if there hasn't been one already). Definitely seems like another character that should have a video essay similar to this.
I remember a lot of the discourse around why Bayonetta wasn't banned back then was that people didn't want to make it seem like they were being bitches and banning a character instead of finding and grinding counterplay against her. I do remember that double Cloud in doubles was banned at some point, I think Bayo was as well but not too sure about that one.
Don't let this video let you forget how Smash 4 Corrin could KO with their counter if the opponent was at 30% before it was nerfed. But yeah Bayonetta in Smash 4 was clearly the absolute best character with no counter play other than the Bayo player having to play badly and should have been banned. Smash 4's DLC were just bad in that they were either bad to okay or too good.
Great video, love this kind of content! One recommendation tho is to use a pop filter when recording or use some high pass EQ (or even better iZotope RX DePlosive) to cut down on the plosives in the voiceover. They’re suuuper noticeable especially on headphones!
I discovered Hbox thanks to Bronol's documentary on the 5 gods of Melee (I am French btw) and I love documentaries/stories/folklore about the Smash games. I did not know exactly what was the problem with Bayonetta in Smash 4 and your video was very clear and fun to watch. So thank you and please do not hesitate to release more videos of this kind, I think they are great ! And you make for a very good narrator too. Hope to see more stuff like this one soon again ! Why not something about SMB 64 players still active to this day ? Like how the meta evolves (or not) after so many years...
The issue with the charts the shown in the 6 min ish mark the 2018 numbers is by then those were also the lowest entry points in sm4sh history and the influencers influencing the games views on bayo is what makes it look like bayo numbers were oppressive.
@@salemmetal6433 but that’s the thing. Only reason why melee has surpassed and outlived is because of generation and legacy’s. That game was plagued by people saying 20xx fox will take over or jiggly puff is evil piece of crap. But neither is true. Is the precipitation the community creates. Brawl lasted so long because of those who loved it. Most of those legends became the founding fathers for sm4sh until the next generation came. But then EVERYONE SHITTED ON THEIR STORYS whether you were a bayo player or not. If it wasn’t bayo it was going to be other characters. Either way history repeats itself and now we love / hate the latest game ultimate while looking back at sm4sh like more defensive but kinda fun. Most players are hella fickle and don’t like getting good or improving or taking criticisms from players supposedly worst then you or better then you. The smash community is now plaque with the same issue like the FGC. Instead of embracing a classic because it’s becoming harder to play you move on to what ever is “easier” to get your hands on. Instead of talking with your wallets. Y’all consume :3.
Maybe not yet, but only because Steve mains are using mayebe 1\4 of what he can actually do. If Steve was actually refined like bayonetta was at the end we would see the exact same result. That’s his point in fact. Steve isn’t that bad yet, but given time and lack of a new game, he will be. Instead of waiting for that to happen we should do something. The success of LMBM is a sign that that’s exactly what spectators want as well.
Hard to say, depends on how much payout Steve has for all that effort. ( SSN4 bayo seems to have an insane effort:payout ratio even compared to the Aegis sisters) Gotta sat such single character dominance happens in other games like how I think street fighter 4 AE was dominated by Yun
This is the kind of thing that happens when a company genuinely does not care about the competitive scene for their game. Not that that's necessarily a bad thing though
As a Charizard main from Smash 4, I can tell you right now I had no choice but to learn the Diddy Kong and Shiek match up because it seemed like every other match was against one of them lol I ended up not fearing either match ups, and with Zards buff he actually did decent against both of them
This was a perfect video bc I wasn’t around in Sm4sh. I’ve heard the stories but I didn’t know like in depth why she was so broken and everything about it
My question is how bayonetta compares to meta knight in brawl. He was just as bad in his game right? Maybe he's not remembered for killing competitive smash bros because there wasn't this awful spectacle that ruined it for people? It seems like brawl just faded away in comparison to ssb4
I think it's mostly about timing. Competitive melee was getting really popular and Cloud was recently added so there was a lot of interest in smash as a whole. At the time I remember playing smash 4 and thinking "wow project m and melee take way more skill" and then watching competitive melee rather than playing or watching smash 4. And also For Glory mode helped keep the game alive
Everyone who talked so badly about Lima during smash 4 when he was a kid and calling him carried been real quiet. He’s stuck with Bayonetta and proved he isn’t carried
I think one of the reasons why the community didn’t decide to ban Bayonetta was because of Smash Ultimate finally having an official release date around the time the discussion was brought up. I think the community just all collectively decided to put up with it for just a little bit longer and then just leave her, along with the rest of Smash 4, in the dust when Ultimate comes out.
@christianmedina4107 that's not even to mention that S4s most dominant player never used bayo and even to this day says Diddy beat bayo which a lot of top Bayos agreed with too, Bayo had a losing MU, MK Def did not
I mean given how one of Bayonetta’s best lines in the first game is, “DON’T FUCK WITH A WITCH!”…it’s no surprise that she dethroned that stupid monkey Diddy Kong when she came out, even after she got nerfed xD
smash 4 had customs, which gave amiibo infinitely more freedom of expression. smash 4 had marth as an actually viable solo-main of a character (not just lucina, and not just as a counterpick against a few top tiers) and falco as a character that, while significantly worse (arguably one of the worst in the game), had a lot more freedom of expression rather than uptilt the character. smash 4 wasn't plagued by characters that are just not fun to fight against due to a plethora of oppressive get-out-of-jail-free cards (the things i truly hate about characters like G&W and Steve is exactly that - i dont mind a lame playstyle, I'll play slow, I'll play lame, that's OK - i actually like fighting good zoners when i understand how to fight against them. But when you just have a free "get off me" tool that requires no brainpower and just removes all of my pressure with no effort (G&W up-b for example)? That's what i hate), characters that aren't very good but have oppressively stupid comeback mechanics and/or out-of-nowhere nuke you at 40-50% abilities (GO meter, incineroar as a character). Yes, many characters could combo you off the top with rage at like 50% or less on some stages, but it was significantly easier to play around and everyone had ways to exploit it (although it is definitely a flaw of the game). Oh, and shields in smash 4 were actually worse than Ult, because grabs were so strong you could counter them easier and there were less broken out-of-shield options, making pressuring someone's shield far more viable outside of "standing there, menacingly" and/or hopping around like a rabbit without throwing out any moves until they do (or MAYBE you get away with a grab every once in a while). Point being? Overall. Until Bayonetta dropped, Smash 4 was just far more enjoyable for me personally than Ult has ever been. Genuinely. And that's despite liking a game that has ledgeguarding and better combos more than something more neutral-focused, i play falco and marth i think that should be obvious (i dont like melee because of L-cancelling, but i respect people who do - it is a great game). Smash 4 was more neutral focused, yes, but smash ultimate has proven to be far more defensive as a game due to the fact that so many good (and even a few bad) characters have very free easy universally-strong out-of-shield options with little to no counterplay outside of baiting them out (which you more often than not can't do if you hit their shield first), the fact that grabs are so much weaker, and many characters have even stronger defensive options when they're not holding shield. Pair these strengths together on a character that can camp and run away the whole game... and, well, you've got the current meta. edit: Oh, also, i was of the opinion that steve shouldn't be banned initially... ...but then some of his tech started being discovered. See, if it was just on-release no-tech steve with the insane combos he had like week 1, he's just a strong top tier and contender for top in the game - not nearly as broken as bayo, who I still say should be banned even at smash con tourneys at this point just to make smash 4 fun again. But steve definitely started crossing a line eventually.
Reminds me of all the EVO and other tournaments top 8 where Melee almost always had 6-7 Fox players. In other news, someone saying ZeRo's name on TH-cam?! That hasn't happened in years.
I still maintain base game Diddy was the most busted ass character in the game's history. But luckily he was nerfed rather promptly and multiple times.
Never played smash 64 played very little melee, brawl and smash 4 1400 hours of ultimate and I can say from experience Steve is by far not the most overpowered in all of smash
Bayonetta is one of my favorite games ever, so I'm happy to see the hate around her has died along with smash 4. Now whenever she appears in ultimate tournaments, it's pretty hype. I love where she's at right now.
@@vanilla8956 I meant related to smash bros, I could give less of a damn of what anita or twitter think. I just don't want that hateful vibe around her in tournaments anymore.
@@quizlaire I get what you mean. I'm just pointing out that she's like my favorite character but I feel like she is seriously cursed because it's always some new dumb drama lmao. I don't do tournaments so I'm more focused on online but if I did like tourneys I would have been pissed to get heckled for my fav getting in lol
While it can be said that smash ult and 4 are in the same spot chronologically, I think an even stronger point is that they're at the same point meta-wise. What do I mean? Top players are starting to realize that steve actually has no counterplay (at least, no counterplay that is as easy as steve counter-counterplay), just like how people eventually realized that bayo was the best with no real competition. As sonic (maybe gmw, but I'm not too confident) reaches that point as well, I think people will eventually be unable to not reject the null hyphothesis (smash ult top tiers not being overtuned to an unfun and definitely game-worsening state). I think that will be the point when things are forced to move forward. Also, just a question, but is it a fair comparison to compare bayo to only steve, when sonic is also another char people want on the chopping block? Should they be paired together for stats?
I feel like while Steve is a shoe in for Smash 6, he's gonna get nerfed in a similar way to how Bayo was in Ultimate. I think a big thing is that NILs probably just won't be a thing in Smash 6, intentionally or not I think the tweeking they do to the character is gonna remove them.
Steve is either getting nerfed hard in Smash 6 or won't be in the game at all. Either of which is something I'm sure a lot of Steve mains are dreading. I mean look what happened with Bayonetta in Ultimate.
Because she got nerfer a lot and now people to resort to the easiest combo you can imagine with low effort sideb on ground to upb to two air sideb into an aerial usually being a B-air and half the you can snap out of that one with some DI even in Smash 4 compared to the supposed final version in Ultimate. I hardly ever see a Bayo in casual trying anything complex or successfully doing so at all. So far Shiek main are the ones that try their consistent complex playstyle from casual all the way to competitive. Such an sight today...
Honestly always though Lucas was a good counter pick for Bayo. He was short enough to duck under her gun, his pk fire could reach her while staying under her gun. Her approach went low enough for lucas to short hop nair her and stop her / scare her from approaching with guns or the side b.
Bayo is so boring in ult - its just a mental struggle to play her. She can't even just throw out her moves like other characters can in the game without thinking, why cuz she has lag for doing so. Her moves still be dysfunctional after all the "fixes" and its frustrating especially when you're looking to get a confirm.
It’s such a shame these Bayo players never learned how to talk to a lady, if only there was someone they could ask about it
It’s such a shame that Pit players have been unable to literate.
It's such a shame that Captain Falcon players have never been shown any moves before.
@@Sean-qg3ggIt's such a shame that Lucina players can't protect themselves
If only Marth players had someone to take away their meat.
It's such a shame that Mr. Game and Watch players can't go back after going black.
I genuinely think Hbox video essays are the way to go instead of just gameplay videos.
Same
Just needs to stop slandering GnW with polar opposite descriptions of how works.
@Axe and he stream highlight videos he's been putting out since like 2017
I can confirm that this is true as someone who has never played Smash, watched maybe 4 matches, and have never watched gameplay footage and didn't even realize until you just pointed it out that these videos were made by one of the "gods" of Smash.
The fact is, the videos are just interesting and well done, and they explain just the right amount about the game that a non Smash player like myself can follow them, but also don't go into so much detail that a person familiar with competitive gaming, and specifically FGC, doesn't find it boring and repetitive.
So much more effort to make, but equally proportionally better!
Bro please keep making these story-type videos. They are actually godlike
I just hope he makes sure to stay on topic, he didn't answer the question the entire video
ghost ride the whip peanutbuttergamer rainbow tylenol mashup
repent to God
I think another point for Sheik being less hated was Sheik was incredibly skillful and expressive. If smash 4 kept sheik as the best i genuinely think it would be remembered as a significantly better game
Sheik also died to total bullshit at 40% so everyone kinda felt bad for the players lol
*cheesy
Sheik also lost her grab 50 50 kill confirm so had to rely on the f tilt 50 50. She got nerfed but bayo was ridiculous throughout. Bayo shoukdve been banned and so should steve
Smash 4 Sheik was so fun that sometimes I still go back to my 3DS just to get a little taste of how things used to be.
speak for yourself, I'd watch bayos and steves all day over Shieks.
I feel like nobody talks about how prevalent Cloud was in Smash 4 doubles. It genuinely killed the viewing experience for me seeing at least 2 to 3, sometimes 4 Clouds in each match. I remember there was a Google docs study showing that Cloud in doubles was more prevalent than Bayo singles. I wish I could remember the figures, but it was like 80% of top 64 / top 32 had Cloud within the last few years of Smash 4's life. Bayo might've ended Smash 4, but Cloud ended doubles before Bayo even came out.
Yup this is true. Cloud was ridiculous. I played cloud myself and 100% advocated for a ban on him in doubles, not even like a 1 cloud Limit like a straight up ban
So you were part of the problem lol@@salemmetal6433
There is a reason I like to think Shiek was never hated, at least to the same degree as Bayo anyways.
Sheik still felt like she was playing Smash 4. Either finding a grab for guaranteed early damage, or chipping away at your opponent past 20-30% so that her combos/advantage can finally do its thing. Bayonetta felt like she was playing in her game of origin, and you are the unfortunate cpu enemy getting hit with a 20 hit combo that kills you in the process.
Crazy thing is that even though she got nerfed into the ground in Ultimate, she’s still fairly viable competitively. At her core, her combos are still there, they just took out the busted kill of the top combo which I feel is well deserved cause it was too easy to perform and killed way too early. She’s one of my secondaries besides my mains Ken and Joker but man is she extremely fun once you get her down in her new state.
Crazy?
she's only viable now because she got buffed, when the game came out bayo was not viable
When Ultimate came out Bayo was pretty bad. She's only become viable after receiving buffs.
I hate the extra landing lag for every special that is used, even when you land without using an aerial. It just made her feel so clunky. She plays like she has serious menstrual health issues but refuses to go to the doctor.
For some reason they decided to up the lag for her using her specials but didn't make her grounded normals remain the same way so she can pressure just like the other characters. In smash 4 she didn't have special lag until she used 2 or more special moves not 1. However, in ult once she uses 1 special move she has a yrs worth of lag. @@yungmuney5903
3:46 You have to take in consideration that ssbu's roster is 89 and smash 4 is just 51.
For ultimate, if all characters are represented equally, there would be 1,1% frequency for any given character, conversely 2,0% for smash 4.
So the frequenct for beyonetta is 13,6%/2,0% = 6,8 times the average and steve is 4,4%/1,1% = 4 times. So really beyo was more like 2 times more frequent than steve when taking into account the different sizes of the rosters.
Though this is true, I still think mentionning the 3x factor gives you a better picture in this case, cause that’s how it feels for the viewers and the players. When you watch a tournament overwhelmed with Bayo’s, you won’t consider how many you had to expect.
Taking in account Pokémon Trainer and Pyra/Mythra, the correct roster number is 86. 1/86 is closer to 1.2%, and 4.4% / 1.2% is 3.6.
So yeah, Bayonetta being twice as successful as Steve is correct… for now.
I welcome vids like this, retrospective critical looks at smash, always nice to have so competitive scene can learn and improve on how to handle these kinds of situations
smash devs when they have to make dlc fair 😞
pay 5 dollars to be instantly good at the game 😔
They gotta get more money somehow
Unless its Sephiroth 😞
Or Sora…
@@averytubestudios or banjo lmao
I think Bayo would have been banned following that Evo grand final if Smash Ultimate hadn't been announced and had a release date by then. Since the new game was coming though, I think everyone just collectively decided to put up with it for a bit longer and then left Smash 4 behind.
Which is a shame tbh. I wish they just fucking banned her because the game was genuinely very cool outside of her imo. Like Rosa and sonic were kinda lame sure but honestly they were way less obnoxious and lame than like at least a handful of the meta characters in ultimate
dont let this video distract you guys from the fact that yesterday hbox was quoted saying "corrin feet YES!" on stream
I have to agree
I wonder how he feels about Juri
Corrin feet?
@@Garbagecant24 yes the best thing
3:45 This 4.35% vs 14% comparison is pretty flawed. Not only does it not take into account that Ultimate has over 30 more characters to spread that distribution over, but it also glosses over what he mentioned literally one minute prior that late 2018 was when many non-Bayo players were either taking a break from the game or selling out to the Bayonetta pick. He's comparing the state of late-2018 Smash 4, a game soon to be replaced, to 2023 Ultimate, a game with no sequel in sight. Overall just a very sensationalist statistic, and it (along with other parts of the video) just substantiates the idea that you should probably only watch videos looking back on Smash 4 created by people who made the game their first priority in its prime.
I always think about how at the time there were people at my (at the time) college who would set up a tv and Wii U to play smash 4, and I ended up stopping by most days to play with them. It was a lot of fun to watch and play, and since some of the people who set it up played seriously, I was able to get their advice to improve at the game as characters I liked. Then, one of the serious players started playing Bayonetta all the time to "practice". Since they used a "best two out of three, winner stays in loser drops out" system, this guy naturally ended up playing pretty much the whole time, just using the same broken combos to steamroll anyone who played against him. As you can imagine, this meant that playing the game meant just getting destroyed by the same character using the same techniques that you'd have basically no chance of countering, and watching anyone else play was just watching the same character beating everybody the exact same way (I realized pretty quickly the only time it was ever exciting was when he started losing). As you can imagine, I just kind of ended up trailing off on showing up there, since the only way I'd get anything out of it would be if I seriously picked up Cloud for the sole purpose of trying to counter Bayonetta, and obviously that didn't interest me.
It's really interesting to me in retrospect how that ended up as my own little microcosm of what Bayo did to Smash 4's scene.
8:06 huge respect to that guy for disencouraging the crowd from booing
Love this video format. There's a lot of history and past incidents to look back on, so hopefully we'll see more vids like this one from you.
Smash Ultimate is now older than Smash 4 was when Ultimate released.
Dang.
And there’s no future game in sight.
Dang.
I think my favorite moment of the smash scene with smash 4 is that this clearly oppressive character was never banned, yet they decide to ban the miis because "oh they can change their specials even though changing characters does the same thing, and mii brawler has a kill confirm!!!!" This fanbase is not very bright.
- HBox makes a huge video essay to show how broken Bayonetta was in Smash 4
- Some random annoying AF Bayonetta player: Skill Issue
Bayo’s biggest nerf between games was without a doubt to her forward air.
She still does 76% damage in her combo, she’s still op
@@twelvenation6393
Doing big damage =/= op, not even viable especially with early ult bayo, bayo severely struggles to kill outside of backair, her forwardair extensions kept bayos combos, while still long, closer to the middle of the screen, which to the knockback nerfs of both upair and feels like fair, she didnt have anything to kill reasonably unles she got you out there at the percent she can combo AND kill at reasonably, she cant kill early because her options are rediculously slow, and she cant combo at high percents due to the changes of up b and side b practically killing some higher percent routes.
And good riddance, she has alot, but she doesnt have everything now, her edge gaurding is great, having holdable aireals really helps with that, but youre much less likely to get touch of deathed by bayo, and even less likely to die at higher percents off a combo
@@4days604 I play Lucas and she can trap me in a combo right off the rip with 76% damage every single time. She’s way too OP just the fact you can’t escape it
@@4days604 the bigger the comment, the hotter the air ngl
@@twelvenation6393skill issue
You actually are naturally built for smash video essays. Would love to see you narrate more vids on smash history
I for sure think Bayo would’ve been banned had ultimate not already been announced, I remember cloud bans in doubles were being tested quite frequently despite the looming presence of ultimate
Unexpected, but very cool to see you make such a video, Hbox! Keep em coming, you're providing great insight. Appreciate the data points too.
6:06 To be fair, DK had an awful matchup against Yoshi back in Smash 4 so that could have been why DKWill chose Sheik in that set.
I doubt that it had to do with just Sheik being the best character in S4 back then haha.
Raptor is also my crewmate, and I knew he disliked fighting Sheik. My strategy was to camp with needles bc I didn't know the S4 Yoshi matchup that well yet and I knew if I went DK I would have gotten wrecked at the time lol. Yoshi feels like a matchup that I have to relearn each game bc they keep buffing the character haha. Eventually I go back and play it again with DK when I'm more comfy.
@@DKwill holy cow it's the man himself
He didn't even mention the five frame punish window against Witch Time.
*FIVE FUCKING FRAMES.*
Man I miss Smash 4 Sheik so much. I understand why she got the changes she did, but she was such a cool top tier in that game.
Great video. You're really good at writing this type of stuff.
Right idk how people get hyped for her combos in ult they are the same combos over and over again and people cheer for it lol.
I love this style of video, and having a person so important and knowledgeable about the community like you makes them so worth it. Keep up the awesome work!
And this is a new era to begin in this channel, and god damn am I super down for these kind of videos!
Again, keep those coming!
Wtf I got a Honda Motacompacta ad that had Hungrybox as an actor before the video started
please do more of these, i loved this one!
Sm4sh player seeing 4 bayo in top 8: 😡
Melee player seeing 7 foxes in top 8: ⭐️🤩🥳💫🎉 ⬡ ⬡ ⬡ 🔫 🦊 ⬡ ⬡ ⬡
So true lmao
Such an interesting and important topic to cover in Smash history. I remember hearing about how bad people hated Bayonetta in Smash 4 online, it got to the point where I actually felt good that I was genuinely terrible with her and mained a mid tier character instead (Lucas).
For a similar video, I would like to see a video like this be made for Brawl Meta Knight (if there hasn't been one already). Definitely seems like another character that should have a video essay similar to this.
I remember a lot of the discourse around why Bayonetta wasn't banned back then was that people didn't want to make it seem like they were being bitches and banning a character instead of finding and grinding counterplay against her.
I do remember that double Cloud in doubles was banned at some point, I think Bayo was as well but not too sure about that one.
Don't let this video let you forget how Smash 4 Corrin could KO with their counter if the opponent was at 30% before it was nerfed.
But yeah Bayonetta in Smash 4 was clearly the absolute best character with no counter play other than the Bayo player having to play badly and should have been banned.
Smash 4's DLC were just bad in that they were either bad to okay or too good.
Kinda important to note after patch 1.1.6 people started thinking Bayo was only a upper high tier... of course they were very wrong.
11:44
_"You know how Smashers are about moving on"_
Hungrybox, competitive Melee player.
great high quality video! this is like those hbox reacts videos but its actually you, and there are definitely so many more stories that can be shared
Great video, love this kind of content! One recommendation tho is to use a pop filter when recording or use some high pass EQ (or even better iZotope RX DePlosive) to cut down on the plosives in the voiceover. They’re suuuper noticeable especially on headphones!
It’s either because the community had the weakest will, or because they had the strongest will. NO IN-BETWEEN!!
I discovered Hbox thanks to Bronol's documentary on the 5 gods of Melee (I am French btw) and I love documentaries/stories/folklore about the Smash games. I did not know exactly what was the problem with Bayonetta in Smash 4 and your video was very clear and fun to watch. So thank you and please do not hesitate to release more videos of this kind, I think they are great ! And you make for a very good narrator too. Hope to see more stuff like this one soon again ! Why not something about SMB 64 players still active to this day ? Like how the meta evolves (or not) after so many years...
Had no idea how badly I needed Hbox story time videos. What a goat.
The issue with the charts the shown in the 6 min ish mark the 2018 numbers is by then those were also the lowest entry points in sm4sh history and the influencers influencing the games views on bayo is what makes it look like bayo numbers were oppressive.
Literally, a lot of top players were entering less or quit too
@@salemmetal6433 but that’s the thing. Only reason why melee has surpassed and outlived is because of generation and legacy’s. That game was plagued by people saying 20xx fox will take over or jiggly puff is evil piece of crap. But neither is true. Is the precipitation the community creates.
Brawl lasted so long because of those who loved it. Most of those legends became the founding fathers for sm4sh until the next generation came. But then EVERYONE SHITTED ON THEIR STORYS whether you were a bayo player or not. If it wasn’t bayo it was going to be other characters.
Either way history repeats itself and now we love / hate the latest game ultimate while looking back at sm4sh like more defensive but kinda fun.
Most players are hella fickle and don’t like getting good or improving or taking criticisms from players supposedly worst then you or better then you. The smash community is now plaque with the same issue like the FGC. Instead of embracing a classic because it’s becoming harder to play you move on to what ever is “easier” to get your hands on. Instead of talking with your wallets. Y’all consume :3.
You seriously can't compare Steve to Bayo. They aren't even close to the same league of broken in their respective game.
Maybe not yet, but only because Steve mains are using mayebe 1\4 of what he can actually do. If Steve was actually refined like bayonetta was at the end we would see the exact same result. That’s his point in fact. Steve isn’t that bad yet, but given time and lack of a new game, he will be. Instead of waiting for that to happen we should do something. The success of LMBM is a sign that that’s exactly what spectators want as well.
steve is worse
Hard to say, depends on how much payout Steve has for all that effort. ( SSN4 bayo seems to have an insane effort:payout ratio even compared to the Aegis sisters)
Gotta sat such single character dominance happens in other games like how I think street fighter 4 AE was dominated by Yun
Steve is still polarizing even if he isnt as broken. He is still op tho, he is the top 1 for a reason
@@abduleshabbar9223did you actually watch the video?
This is the kind of thing that happens when a company genuinely does not care about the competitive scene for their game. Not that that's necessarily a bad thing though
I love this storytelling form of content! Would love to see more videos in this format in the future :)
As a Charizard main from Smash 4, I can tell you right now I had no choice but to learn the Diddy Kong and Shiek match up because it seemed like every other match was against one of them lol
I ended up not fearing either match ups, and with Zards buff he actually did decent against both of them
you have a great voice and tone for these kind of videos! keep it up!
This was a perfect video bc I wasn’t around in Sm4sh. I’ve heard the stories but I didn’t know like in depth why she was so broken and everything about it
My question is how bayonetta compares to meta knight in brawl. He was just as bad in his game right? Maybe he's not remembered for killing competitive smash bros because there wasn't this awful spectacle that ruined it for people? It seems like brawl just faded away in comparison to ssb4
I think it's mostly about timing. Competitive melee was getting really popular and Cloud was recently added so there was a lot of interest in smash as a whole. At the time I remember playing smash 4 and thinking "wow project m and melee take way more skill" and then watching competitive melee rather than playing or watching smash 4. And also For Glory mode helped keep the game alive
As someone new to the smash scene this was great! Would love more story time videos covering stuff like legendary tourney runs and moments
I would love to see videos like this become a series, the history of a character would be an incredible series to watch
Everyone who talked so badly about Lima during smash 4 when he was a kid and calling him carried been real quiet. He’s stuck with Bayonetta and proved he isn’t carried
I think one of the reasons why the community didn’t decide to ban Bayonetta was because of Smash Ultimate finally having an official release date around the time the discussion was brought up.
I think the community just all collectively decided to put up with it for just a little bit longer and then just leave her, along with the rest of Smash 4, in the dust when Ultimate comes out.
Can we have more of these kinds of videos, it's always do cool to see your perspective on this stuff
Ay what a coincidence! Was just watching you, i love your videos!
HBox essays, didn’t know I needed them till today
when you do longer video's they're actually good videos it's positively surprising me
10:57 I'm going to start a new band called Bayonetta Meta
Bayonetta felt more broken than Meta Knight, she simply broke the tier list
No way, the brawl competitive was meta Knight. Bayo was the best, but you can win with another character
@christianmedina4107 that's not even to mention that S4s most dominant player never used bayo and even to this day says Diddy beat bayo which a lot of top Bayos agreed with too, Bayo had a losing MU, MK Def did not
So much so that I consider sm4sh as a mainline bayonetta game, in other words we got bayonetta 3 six years before the actual bayonetta 3.
please remember bayo was nerfed so she wasn't at her best. She did not lose to diddy so idk where you get this from. @@salemmetal6433
Love this knew style of content.
I mean given how one of Bayonetta’s best lines in the first game is, “DON’T FUCK WITH A WITCH!”…it’s no surprise that she dethroned that stupid monkey Diddy Kong when she came out, even after she got nerfed xD
Editing goes hard.
More content like this, please!!
smash 4 had customs, which gave amiibo infinitely more freedom of expression.
smash 4 had marth as an actually viable solo-main of a character (not just lucina, and not just as a counterpick against a few top tiers) and falco as a character that, while significantly worse (arguably one of the worst in the game), had a lot more freedom of expression rather than uptilt the character.
smash 4 wasn't plagued by characters that are just not fun to fight against due to a plethora of oppressive get-out-of-jail-free cards (the things i truly hate about characters like G&W and Steve is exactly that - i dont mind a lame playstyle, I'll play slow, I'll play lame, that's OK - i actually like fighting good zoners when i understand how to fight against them. But when you just have a free "get off me" tool that requires no brainpower and just removes all of my pressure with no effort (G&W up-b for example)? That's what i hate), characters that aren't very good but have oppressively stupid comeback mechanics and/or out-of-nowhere nuke you at 40-50% abilities (GO meter, incineroar as a character). Yes, many characters could combo you off the top with rage at like 50% or less on some stages, but it was significantly easier to play around and everyone had ways to exploit it (although it is definitely a flaw of the game). Oh, and shields in smash 4 were actually worse than Ult, because grabs were so strong you could counter them easier and there were less broken out-of-shield options, making pressuring someone's shield far more viable outside of "standing there, menacingly" and/or hopping around like a rabbit without throwing out any moves until they do (or MAYBE you get away with a grab every once in a while).
Point being?
Overall. Until Bayonetta dropped, Smash 4 was just far more enjoyable for me personally than Ult has ever been. Genuinely. And that's despite liking a game that has ledgeguarding and better combos more than something more neutral-focused, i play falco and marth i think that should be obvious (i dont like melee because of L-cancelling, but i respect people who do - it is a great game).
Smash 4 was more neutral focused, yes, but smash ultimate has proven to be far more defensive as a game due to the fact that so many good (and even a few bad) characters have very free easy universally-strong out-of-shield options with little to no counterplay outside of baiting them out (which you more often than not can't do if you hit their shield first), the fact that grabs are so much weaker, and many characters have even stronger defensive options when they're not holding shield. Pair these strengths together on a character that can camp and run away the whole game... and, well, you've got the current meta.
edit: Oh, also, i was of the opinion that steve shouldn't be banned initially... ...but then some of his tech started being discovered. See, if it was just on-release no-tech steve with the insane combos he had like week 1, he's just a strong top tier and contender for top in the game - not nearly as broken as bayo, who I still say should be banned even at smash con tourneys at this point just to make smash 4 fun again. But steve definitely started crossing a line eventually.
I love these essay type vids!!!
Reminds me of all the EVO and other tournaments top 8 where Melee almost always had 6-7 Fox players.
In other news, someone saying ZeRo's name on TH-cam?! That hasn't happened in years.
I was surprised to see this type of content from you HGod but I really enjoyed the video! 👍
Awesome. I love story time. You’re good at telling the history of smash
great video, thanks for making it!
I still maintain base game Diddy was the most busted ass character in the game's history. But luckily he was nerfed rather promptly and multiple times.
Bayo was not broken just lore accurate 😅.
Pretty much
she was lucky kirby wasn't lore accurate too
1:27 Well, this isn’t the first time ZeRo didn’t get 1st at EVO. He got 3rd at EVO 2016 losing to Mr. E and Kameme.
Never played smash 64 played very little melee, brawl and smash 4 1400 hours of ultimate and I can say from experience Steve is by far not the most overpowered in all of smash
Lovin this format!
Bayonetta is one of my favorite games ever, so I'm happy to see the hate around her has died along with smash 4. Now whenever she appears in ultimate tournaments, it's pretty hype. I love where she's at right now.
She is constantly hated. anita sarkesian, polygon's review of bayo 2, and twitter is upset she's not lesbian in 3 lol
@@vanilla8956 I meant related to smash bros, I could give less of a damn of what anita or twitter think. I just don't want that hateful vibe around her in tournaments anymore.
@@quizlaire I get what you mean. I'm just pointing out that she's like my favorite character but I feel like she is seriously cursed because it's always some new dumb drama lmao. I don't do tournaments so I'm more focused on online but if I did like tourneys I would have been pissed to get heckled for my fav getting in lol
Please give us more videos like this, they are super entertaining!
1:26 This sentence is a bit confusing. Zero lost evo in 2016. Got 3rd, but didn’t lose to salem
10:11 also dair literally kills at 0 lol
Please keep these types of videos coming Hbox. PLEASE.
Great video, Hungry Box! Yeah!! Yeah!!!
Love these type of videos, please do more of them
Hungry box Story Videos?? Worth the wait!!!!! 🎉🎉🎉
I just realized something.
Bayonetta...
BayoMETTA
LOVE these videos from Hbox
love these vids❤🦸🏽♂️keep it up box
The hate was deserved imo, she shoulda been banned before it ever got this far though.
This video is what I show to people who claim Steve isn't broken and doesn't need to be banned.
Loved stroytime with hbox!
While it can be said that smash ult and 4 are in the same spot chronologically, I think an even stronger point is that they're at the same point meta-wise. What do I mean? Top players are starting to realize that steve actually has no counterplay (at least, no counterplay that is as easy as steve counter-counterplay), just like how people eventually realized that bayo was the best with no real competition. As sonic (maybe gmw, but I'm not too confident) reaches that point as well, I think people will eventually be unable to not reject the null hyphothesis (smash ult top tiers not being overtuned to an unfun and definitely game-worsening state). I think that will be the point when things are forced to move forward.
Also, just a question, but is it a fair comparison to compare bayo to only steve, when sonic is also another char people want on the chopping block? Should they be paired together for stats?
I feel like while Steve is a shoe in for Smash 6, he's gonna get nerfed in a similar way to how Bayo was in Ultimate.
I think a big thing is that NILs probably just won't be a thing in Smash 6, intentionally or not I think the tweeking they do to the character is gonna remove them.
I think they might make minecart a hitgrab and cause items to be lost on death
Steve is either getting nerfed hard in Smash 6 or won't be in the game at all. Either of which is something I'm sure a lot of Steve mains are dreading. I mean look what happened with Bayonetta in Ultimate.
You didn't talk about steve's userate data at all :(
8:06 MVD being a homie
Steve needs to go
"But if we just ban every character that -!"
Steve. Needs. To. Go.
For what?
@EmperorPenguin1217 asked the casual
@@Cloperella Even if I was casual that doesn't answer my question
@@EmperorPenguin1217 Too bad.
@@Cloperella So why do you want him banned?
Because she got nerfer a lot and now people to resort to the easiest combo you can imagine with low effort sideb on ground to upb to two air sideb into an aerial usually being a B-air and half the you can snap out of that one with some DI even in Smash 4 compared to the supposed final version in Ultimate. I hardly ever see a Bayo in casual trying anything complex or successfully doing so at all. So far Shiek main are the ones that try their consistent complex playstyle from casual all the way to competitive. Such an sight today...
Between AsumSaus doing tech vids, and you doing Meta vids: Life's good.
This video was amazing please make more!
Honestly always though Lucas was a good counter pick for Bayo. He was short enough to duck under her gun, his pk fire could reach her while staying under her gun. Her approach went low enough for lucas to short hop nair her and stop her / scare her from approaching with guns or the side b.
Story time smash 4s are what I live for man
Does anyone remember that Sakurai gave us the ability to nerf and buff characters in game? Not saying we should use it, but we could.
Bayo is so boring in ult - its just a mental struggle to play her. She can't even just throw out her moves like other characters can in the game without thinking, why cuz she has lag for doing so. Her moves still be dysfunctional after all the "fixes" and its frustrating especially when you're looking to get a confirm.
music?