Is Keeping Your Old Car Better For The Environment?
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 16 ก.ย. 2021
- Is it better to buy a new efficient car, or keep your car that already works?
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Is it better for the environment to keep your car that already works, thus not creating something new and using new resources, or to buy something new that's more efficient? Gas cars require less emissions to produce than electric cars, so out of the gate they're more environmentally friendly. However, gasoline cars produce far more emissions while in use, versus electric cars, so eventually the scales tilt in favor of EVs. But is it within a meaningful amount of time, or should we simply be preventing the creation of new waste, by keeping and maintaining what we already have? And what about all of those metals required for EV batteries? In this video we'll focus on both the emissions and the resources, to determine if you should keep your used car, or buy a new car, as it relates to going green.
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Hello all! Addressing common concerns:
1. Per the title, this video is not answering a question about vehicle costs. EVs today are generally more expensive up front. Here's a video diving into more details about EV cost, if interested: th-cam.com/video/7bIBs8GuUYY/w-d-xo.html
2. Yes, the Tesla Impact Report is used as a source in this video. Obviously, this should be approached with skepticism. As stated in the video, their numbers line up with real world estimates. Most studies I find cite ICE production emissions around 10,000 kg, and Tesla shows 9,000 kg (lenient towards ICE). This is also why I provided a scenario where you *double* the EV emissions, and it still wins out over 7 years. Actually really cool to see a manufacturer provide production numbers, because it's rare information to find. More here: th-cam.com/video/6RhtiPefVzM/w-d-xo.html
3. I hope this isn't conveyed as me telling you what to do haha. My only goal is to answer the question of the video title. You can do whatever you want! I have three cars. One is a supercharged MX-5. It's definitely not green. It's yellow.
Cool
And then there are cars from the 80/90s that can get near-EV like mathematical MPG ratings if driven correctly. xD
TBH you glossed over the rare metals needed for EV construction; to the extent that it may be misleading.
In general: you would have to mine, transport and process tons of material for just a few kgs -you are dealing 'parts per million' type of concentrations.
@@LENZ5369 they don't care, from taking tesla's word as a fact, to glossing over mineral emissions to dismissing cost, its misleading at best, i expected better from jason
As an appliance technician that regularly explains this, I would really appreciate a similar video with stats on home appliances.
So what I’ve learned is I should keep riding Italian super bikes to save the planet.
Yes! And you got a like, just because there's not enough riders here
Ride a bicycle.
@@martinfisker7438 And you get one for pointing that out! :)
I ride both italian, japanese and Aussie bikes. That two stroke oil burner actually helps the environment 😂 I still have pleps yelling at me though 🤓
@@Xfacehack there are australian motorcycle manufacturers?
What's better for the environment than buying an EV?
Working from home, so you don't have to drive every day.
I used to drive 7 days a week. Now I drive 2 days a week.
To go a bit further I would ask you the environmental impact of working from your home compared to working from your workplace. I’m primarily talking about internet but I don’t know your specific case.
Good point if you can
@@brouettebredouille8320 I doubt using home internet vs work internet has any CO2 difference. Heating/cooling a second building and driving does.
Same here, as I expect for many. Now though I rarely see or socialise with my work colleagues, the business lacks innovation and spontaneity and everyone is generally getting fed up. Working from home might reduce your emissions but it's not free of consequences.
A society doesn't function if everyone stays inside.
I'm definitely running my car into the ground. She's 13 years old and get almost 40 to the gallon, and I only drive about 8000miles per year.
Mines 23 years old and does 45mpg, 6000 miles a year!
@@robertmaitland09 Installing liquified petroleum gas or methane into car, makes ZERO emissions, and gives same horse power, while driving 4 times cheaper than gasoline. entire Europe is using it, and even 50 years old cars pass emissions tests with it.
@@uroskostic8570 I've been looking into a LPG modification, but I can't afford the modification
@@uroskostic8570 LPG is definitely cleaner but it's certainly not zero emission. Still CO2. And in most of Europe it's a fringe thing because it makes the car heavier because of the steel tank and it will decrease the power of the engine because of it's lower energy density.
@@JaccoSW It'll make the car heavier by 20kg max. LPG here in Europe is 2x cheaper than petrol. If you install cheap brand LPG system it'll reduce HP by 5 10hp but higher quality ones don't have difference, you can even tune it for more HP on LPG.
I'm keeping my 14-year-old Acura. It gets ≈ 20 mpg.
When working I bought a tank of gas every Monday and Thursday.
As a retired person, I buy gas once a month. I use so little gasoline, that I think getting rid of my perfectly good car would be foolish-even from an environmental standpoint.
Can't afford a brand new electric car, but running my old 50+ mpg diesel with a blend of veg oil still seems it would work out better currently than an electric car.
What is mind boggling to me is that, how can i replace my diesel car (bmw 330d e91) with an electric car? I need to tow stuff and i yet found a electric car that can tow as heavy and long as this bmw. While also not being huge. Clearly co2 production most be worse with any electric vehicle.
They banned diesel cars because they’d never be able to sell you another car if you bought one. No tin foil hat needed.
Wouldn't happen to be a diesel rabbit would it. That car was a beast.
You guys don't need a car. You need an electric bus. Lmao seats 7. It's like that SUV parody from GTA 3.
I actually drive between 6k to 8k a year. But a campers, the family car is a transit connect that runs mostly fully loaded about 80mpg effective in town and 100 + on Fwy.
Thank you for making this video breaking down all the generic concerns that people have when comparing ICE and EV!
I'm an Environmental Engineer and I've had people always come to ask me the same question. I can now just redirect them to this video that gives them solid figures and academic research papers that help back up my claim.
is that because as an Environmental Engineer, you had no supporting documentation or any such hard copy info to provide?
@@cc8530 You think he walks around with that in his back pocket and brings his laptop to all family gatherings?
My biggest hesitation at the moment is lack of maintenance/repair infrastructure. I like that there's no dealer to buy a Tesla but I hate that they don't provide parts and clearly don't want to support independent repair shops. Yes I know EV's have a lot less to maintain but there's still suspension, HVAC, battery cooling, and if you get in a fender bender body work.
My main irk is the wires. I work with a lot of small electronics and the most common major problem I see is that the wiring doesn't stand the test of time. I happens on normal cars all the time I'm super sus about quality parts being used and the entire vehicle not being a iphone on wheel.
I don’t like how essentially everything is computer controlled in them,
@@Hensleytheultimatehoundsman so is all modern cars
@@joeisawesome540 I know I hate it in all cars too but Tesla is worse with it
Well, I’m gonna keep my 21 years old 35mpg car doing just 5000 miles per year. I wasn’t thinking about selling it but this video cleared my consciousness. 🍀
Or if you sold it for a used Prius. A used Prius is basically the greenest car purchase you can make.
But you'd better love it. You'd have to run it until it dies and Toyotas last decades easy.
Conscience. :)
@@webx135 the battery’s on Priuses and other hybrid cars go bad are are extremely expensive to replace
@@webx135 every time I see a Prius I spit flames as I pass them, the probably quarter gallon of fuel being spent from being held up then passing those turtles probably doesn't work out to be beneficiary to anyone. Also is a Prius capped at 60 mph even in Texas? Even my huge RV that's older than me and blown head gaskets does 90 mph easy why can't those little turtles go faster?
I would rather bike the 30 miles to work than drive a Prius, that sounds humiliating and mind numbingly dull (I wouldn't be surprised to see a causality graph on the rate of suicide for Prius drivers, that's one of those cars that probably lowers emissions by having their driver off themselves than continue commuting to work in such a slow and ugly vehicle, therefore zero emissions).
@@jakegarrett8109 they're capped at 106 mph not 60. The people driving slow are prob doing so bc they want to use less gas
"So in summary, cars are bad for the environment. Amazing!" Lol perfect
Technically people are bad for the environment. And the amount of people production is at an all time high. With the new abortion laws and hoe bags popping out kids left and right without any means to support them and pos dudes knocking up women and running off to do it again to another women.. people are killing the planet.. china had the right idea….
@@Z-Ack China have since abandoned that though due to population imbalances it caused.
Since 82% of the environment is plants and CO2 is good for plants, I'm not sure how we can say "cars are bad for the environment". Who determines what's good and bad? Hundreds of millions of years ago, before animals existed, plants began a process of destroying the environment by overusing atmospheric carbon. Is it possible that over hundreds of millions of years, nature engineered a type of life form that could dig down and release the trapped carbon and put the atmosphere back into its correct state?
@@Z-Ack I'm glad you started with the word "Technically" so I knew in advance I was going to be reading something with a lot of technical information, dense with facts and no speculation or straight up word barf from a dumbo.
Electric Bicycles!
I'm about 3 years into using a 35mpg car. I planned on running it into the ground (or close) when I got it, and it appears that was sort of smart. I couldn't have gone electric at the time, so i feel good about my choice. I really hope my next car is electric.
Same. I bought a Jetta when I decided to go back to college, sold my Duramax. I average about 36 MPG mixed driving, so according to this chart, I'm pretty much not "allowed" to get anything other than electric next go-around! The Tesla didn't make any sense at the time, I don't drive very many miles annually, and the base price is almost twice as much as my Jetta. A Bolt or Leaf would have been too small for my family. I'd really like to take a look at a Rivian in the future.
My dilemma was that I was driving a skoda with 300k miles that got 50mpg but being 18 years old it was not worth it to get it to pass inspection. And even a super fuel efficient car like that still manged 132300lbs og co2 just in fuel burn. So in the end I bought a used BMW i3. Electric cars as they are now are not sustainable but they might have the potential to be one day, but burning fule will never be no matter how efficient cars might become.
Are you gay?
This is the single best, clearest, most informative video on this subject ever made. Please share with everyone you know. Dam nice work man!!!
Great video. 👍
You took time to comment instead of making next part of Hummer transformation video?!
Shame on you 😜
Damn didn't realize you watched this channel. I have your dbrand case, cool stuff.
What a nice surprise seeing you here
You could've swapped a duramax in your hummer
Car is car and car break
Having all this as an excel spreadsheet where you could plug in your own current mpg, yearly miles driven, co2 emissions/mile/km etc would be a very valuable tool for people who are unsure of what to do.
wrong jason, excel spread sheet is more like jason cammisa
@@FixingWithFriends If you do, could you share them? Would be very interesting to fiddle around with.
Great idea, you should make one.
I'll be honest, I really want to keep my petrol car and I'm resisting electric. However, it's really good to hear/see some actual unbiased data. It makes a refreshing change from uninformed people telling me that electric is better for the environment without anything to back it up.
It's really funny to see this comment because I am the exact opposite lol. I really want to get rid of my gas car and get an electric car - not even necessarily for environmental reasons (though that's a plus) but for convenience. I am a city driver and I love the idea of just charging at home/my work place which a.) costs less than fueling up, and b.) means I don't have to go to the gas station every week or two. That coupled with lower maintenance needs and EVs are just so much more convenient for me. The problem is the upfront cost and bad EV incentives here.
As he said cars are bad for the enviroment. Keep your current car but also get an electric bicycle.
Whenever you hear the word "green" understand you are being propagandized. Green is marketing wank and has no definition whatsoever. There is no committee deciding who can put "green" on their device.
What you are getting here is EXTREMELY biased. It is assuming only co2 emissions when it comes to "the environment" (another weasel word)/
Of course, all of this ignoring those of us who cannot drive an electric car under any circumstances because we cannot charge them (those of us who live in the city). They also completely ignore the cost. Even the model 3 sells at an average price of more than 50 thousand dollars. They are just assuming that everyone can afford to just plop down 50k dollars and pay the insurance.
I personally hate that "better for the environment" is the first argument people make for getting an ev over petrol. Being a car enthusiast, I would argue first that newer EVs offer a unique driving experience with it's availability of instant torque, The acceleration even on a lower end model is phenomenal, and having the center of gravity really low will boost your confidence and aggressiveness on some fun corners and turns. It helps too that it's cheaper to fuel up. It does suck that it will take longer to charge vs filling a tank. But improvents to fast charging network is accelerating, and tbh, unless your travelling far on the regular, that's what the nightime is for.
@@Caligiant There is no economic rationalism case for EVs. They are WAY too much money upfront. Guys like engineering explained always compare these expensive EVs with equally or more expensive petrol machines.
If EVs really catch on and capture a significant portion of the market, electricity rates will skyrocket.
Thanks for doing this. I particularly appreciate you anticipating common objections. This came out exactly as I would have expected intuitively, but so much better to have some actual data.
As part of the ‘Save the manual’ crowd, I’m going to be buying used, old cars for quite a long time.
All I want are more rwd manual hatchbacks but you cant have it all
Lol same
@@JT_771 the dark side is tempting. Resist😂
@@JT_771 Tesla's are fast, but they're completely uninspiring to me. To me driving isn't about the fast, but about the shifting and engagement with the machine. Tesla is the antithesis of engagement, not to mention light and toss able are not words I can associate with a 6,000lb vehicle.
If you really want to "save the manuals" the ideal scenario would be to buy a brand new manual car from the factory, therefore supporting their business & for them to know that there is still demand for them. I heard the Mazda 3 2.5 Manual is a really great daily so go check that one out.
Not the most environmentally friendly option but it's a cause I'd probably support.
I've been having a blast with my 1st gen Insight (2000, manual trans) and am on the regular getting 64 mpg. Amazing little vehicle!
That's my dream daily, my 02 Saab 9-3 viggen can at best get 35mpg, but being a performance car it's usually closer to 28mpg haha
That's quite amazing! even my most efficient motorbike (2007 BMW F650GS) only gets ~60mpg, and a whole lot of bikes are significantly worse than that
I have 2 first gen insights and love them! Also worth noting is how long they last. Mine have 245,000 miles and 282,000 miles. Both still run great!
@@calebwold2795 Mind sharing one? 😂
How does it do on hills/mountain roads? I'd like one but fear 70mph uphill is not really its thing haha.
Hey I got a question. Do the 10 tons of emissions only include Tesla’s part of the production or does it also include the extraction of all the resources mined & produced before?
great point
And what do you think?
1000% only includes Tesla’s part of the production. The statistics used in this video make the gap seem much larger than it really is. It's almost giving me "big electric paid Jason a nice chunk to make this video" vibes.
Thanks man, really informative video!
There's some sort of a trend these days for people to renew their cars every 2-3 years. So the overall picture is looking pretty bad :)
Most people are flat broke because of this.
Haha yes, a three year lease is bad for your wallet and emissions.
Yes, but those cars don't vanish, poorer and poorer people keep leasing/buying and using them, like hand me down clothes. It isn't like old cell phones, which most people just end up keeping in a drawer somewhere.
Agree, in my country average age of a car is about 15 years, and if prices don't calm down then average age will be raising
@@EngineeringExplained My next car (whenever the current one becomes irreparable) is likely to be a 3-year-lease-return, bought at something like half the cost of an equivalent new car...
THIS is the breakdown I needed to see. I'm not really pro or anti anything in this case, but I've been skeptical of EV's. I'm still not ready to buy one yet for myself, but I feel more confident in them as they will eventually become the standard (and the technology will get better, as it has for ICE's over the years). I still feel good driving my '07 Corolla S 5-speed with 197k miles and it's 40 mpg back and forth to work everyday, and my '18 Colorado Z71 V6 gets a decent 23-24 mpg doing truck stuff. I'm not exactly a tree hugger but I do care about the environment and the future of clean energy, so this gives me confidence in the direction we're going in. Thanks Jason!
I'm glad to have seen this comment, it's always nice to see someone with a balanced perspective on the internet!
@@madattaktube thank you! I really wish we as a society would be more open minded, critical, and objective about things while being able to engage with other people's opinions respectably.
Yeah, and my Trans Am will pass anything but a gas station.
But when gasoline and diesel are phased-out (almost) and the government suffer the MASSIVE loss in tax revenue, I wonder how much electricity will then end up costing per kWh...?
I'm rocking a '07 Corolla 5-speed as well with 230k miles excellent gas mileage. 23-24 for a truck is pretty good, I would love a pickup that could get 30 highway.
Well done, thanks for the analysis.
This is a PHD level research concept squeezed in less than 15 minutes. You are a genius. We need more of you on this planet
Here's another aspect that impact people more: money.
A model 3 is 55K here minimum, used is 40k minimum.
I got a used Skõda for less than 5K that has far more space in it and on which I can change parts on my own (good luck repairing your own tesla or even getting information on how to fix it in the first place).
I recently watched a video about a Tesla coolant inlet broke off on the battery pack. Tesla said he needed a new battery pack.
not to mention that there is a certain environmental impact associated with you having to work- the CO2 caused by me having to earn 40k seems significant- but very hard to calculate. The video is not about that though
As cool as that sounds I haven't found a Skoda dealer in Virginia yet.
Yep, reparability is a huge problem with Tesla. Even when I eventually get an EV, it's probably not going to be a Tesla for that exact reason.
@@zelenskysboot361 Yep, that was probably Rich Rebuilds. He did another video recently, same kind of crap from Tesla. Tesla wanted to replace the entire battery pack for $22,500, but Rich's shop opened it up, replaced just two modules of it, and got the car working again for 75% less.
I only drive about 5000 miles/yr (less recently) so I'm struggling to justify a new car of any kind at the mo even though I really want to go electric
True! If your milage is low, offsetting production emissions takes a very long time to do (unless you buy used)!
It depends on how long your average commute is. If your only driving 30 miles a day, a car with a smaller battery than a m3 would be an option. Smaller battery -> less emissions during production + less „stuff“
So the break even Point would be mich earlier
Shop used EV’s, like Nissan Leaf maybe?
I’d order a model S Plaid n a heart beat but hey it’s $140k out of my budget.
I went from about 12,000 miles/yr to 6,000 miles per year due to changing job which requires half the commute. I think if I was still doing the 12 I'd have bought an electric car by now. My partner went from about 12,000 to about 2,000 due to working from home 4/5 days because of the pandemic. And so my priority on an EV is now waiting until my car dies, which could be a while. I'm starting to think the real way to help the environment is to somehow make working from home/without the commute the default way to work.
The priority will probably change if my partner is made to go into the office 5 days a week again.
Really good analysis. Thank you.
thank you for this video jason
Thank you for including metric conversions.
everyone's favorite unit of mass, the mazda mx5
Do you know what, I never actually considered the volume of the Petrol. Always thought about emissions of manufacturing the electric for Evs vs emissions from ICE cars. But actually the process of making the fuel, and the fuel then being shipped around the world on giant ships and using diesel trucks makes a big difference as well!
Yes, every time I would fill up I would think about the entire tank's worth of petrol going into the atmosphere. I much happier now that I've switched to electric.
The fossil fuel industry has been working on THEIR sustainability for decades. They are pros in marketing to the public. So much so that some people defend them like their lives depended on it, although they do not make any money out of the income the fossil fuel industry gets.
I actually thought its was impressive that you could travel around the world more than 8 times on so little fuel haha
@@Ryan-lk4pu Yeah! When he said, equivalent mass to 22 of these cars, over 200k miles? I thought, "Well that seems small." In fact, I find it unbelievable and will be looking into the numbers. 200k is a decade of ownership, and liquid fuel is pretty heavy!
@@usa-ev i don't think you should be so happy about your choice unless the grid changed to mostly nuclear energy
*Very* interesting. Thanks for crunching the numbers.
You are the reference to many of us that loves car stuff!
Congrats 🇧🇷
Great explanation as always. Liking the line graphs and how you’ve directly addressed many of the common gripes or misconceptions when comparing ev to ice.
So this is incredibly mileage dependent and as someone who live in a small city, 12k km per year is already an insane amount let alone 12k miles, making old petrol burning cars greener than swapping to electric as our power grid is less green even when compared to US, thank you Jason
True, but Jason is American and this was made with the average American in mind, and we drive a lot, even in cities. I put 20k miles on my TDI last year
This part always gets glossed over. In America on the road there’s no way you can have millions dollar nuclear power plants in the middle of nowhere.
The scale of the US is actually insane too, I think I saw somewhere where in 6 hours you can visit multiple parts of the UK but in 6 hours if your driving in Texas, you are still in Texas.
Electric city car might be a good answer. Small battery and great efficiency
@@jimmyjimbo1955 Texan here, can confirm.
I took a road trip with some friends to Colorado and it was like 9hrs I think driving through Texas lol
Really useful video, thanks for sharing
Thank you for the video!
Think about it, my 29yo petrol groceries getter only runs 5km a week on average, at that consumption/pollution rate me switching from it to anything newly built would only impacts the environment even more.
So you would fall in the red portion of the graph, got it.
It's based off of the average miles that you drive per year. If you drive one mile a year it will take a thousand years to make up for it but if you drive a million miles a year it's gonna be more like a week to make up for it.
Sounds like you could ditch the car and just walk or bike that distance in a week.
@@spike_spencer You couldn't walk or cycle with the same amount of groceries, you could make several trips of course, but then the time penalty really stacks up. I cycled to/from work for a couple of years and would pick up food three times a week on the way home, but as the store was close to work that meant I was lugging the extra weight ten miles home. It also only worked because we had a staff canteen and I ate my main meal there at lunchtime so only needed enough for a light meal at home in the evening.
@@spike_spencer in an ideal flat world, sure. but in real life that few kilometers a week could be a touge run. lol
and I sure ain't carry my beg of rice uphill.
Finally a video I can send to people I argue with on the internet
This is gonna be top comment
Most Toyota engine can out perform electric cars in the environment and usability
@@allowa5220 do you any source for that statement?
how about emissions to make that electricity, stop arguing on the internet lol
@@edwingonzalez5610 he took that into account in his calculations, did you even watch the vid?
Incredible numbers!! Nice job.
Great video. Thanks.
Another way to look at it is that the overall fleet has a finite lifespan and needs a certain amount of new cars each year. So some people need to buy new cars so that others can buy second hand ones.
A crucial consideration. EV's change the dynamic with reusing (2nd & 3rd & subsequent ownership) as much as recycling.
Entire life costs and emissions are the only fair figures to compare.
Thanks for this, Jason. Looks like it still makes sense to keep my 21 year old car that gets 37mpg until it dies then probably replace with used electric assuming the market's there. Great to see it in numbers.
You can speed up the "until it dies" process with an aggressive tune or some mods. ;)
NO! It's better from an ENVIRONMENTAL impact point of view. There are still many other points of view to consider.
@@ProfessorOzone of course. But by the time it does die, I expect the economics to catch up. And I'm driven primarily by the economics, not the environmental considerations. If I can get solar energy for charging a used EV, it'll be great all around. We're just not there today.
When it "dies" the best solution is to repair/replace what dies. The "oh it needs a $900 repair it's trash now" mentality is how the enviro crowd gets to pretend superiority.
@@tkello001 my metric for when it dies is when the unibody is too rusted through to be safe. Pretty much everything else is reasonably able to be fixed.
Thank you!
This is an excellent study and comparison. It is a great simple tool.
Damn Jason I am super impressed with the camera work and editing. Did you do it all yourself?
Very kind, thanks! Yep, solo job!
@@EngineeringExplained Impressive. 10x smaller channels already outsource editing these days.
@@EngineeringExplained well done!
@@EngineeringExplained It also helps that you are a personable and engaging presenter.
There is always someone needing and willing to buy your old car though, which changes everything. Unless the car is "totaled" and removed from service.
If the car is totaled and removed from service, the question is irrelevant anyway. You've gone from the question of "is it environmentally friendly to buy a new car even though my current car still works" to the simple fact of "I have absolutely no choice, I need a new car because my current one is dead"
@@mjc0961 Did you miss the word "Unless" ?
In the very near future you'll get next to nothing for a used ICE-car, unless it's collectible. The change is going faster than you think: More than 50% of all new cars in Norway are BEVs, 15% in Germany with shrinking ICE-car immatriculations and a very strong upward trend from year to year.
@@Makatea That is not true in the USA. In fact, all used cars have gone up in price.
I guess the thing to work through is whether your choice to sell your car and buy a new one will actually result in a new car being built, or whether your failure to sell would cause someone else who would have bought used to buy new.
If your refusal to sell causes someone else to buy new, build emissions doesn’t matter except to the extent it differs between new vehicles. And I would think that would logically mean that you should be buying lowest running emission car (new) and letting someone else buy your used car, if you want to optimize for emissions.
Excellent work Jason! 😁
I had my hole punch out but you touched on all my concerns in the last 4 mins, bravo
Buying a very recent used car sounds like an even better option than buying anything new (whether ICE or EV).
Normally yes, but not in this market. Used cars are going for outrageous prices.
@@ChadRazorback Yes used car prices are the highest they have ever been right now but the point still stands imo, no matter what car you buy you are getting better value for money going for a 2-3 year old car compared to a brand new one.
@@NirvanaSOAD960960 If your only metric is how to get from A to B with the least amount of money up front, then yes you should go buy a 10 year old Honda Civic, or just buy a bus pass and forget the car. Usually there is more to it than that.
@@benjamind7290 maybe if you actually fully read what I said before commenting you would see that’s not even close to what I said
@@NirvanaSOAD960960 You were talking about value for your money. A bus pass is better value for transportation than any car. What am I missing? You didn't define what "values" are going into your "value" statement. If all you care about for value is least money up front, then you shouldn't be buying a car at all. If you are insisting on a car, then an old Honda is likely best "value". If you insist on a 2-yr old car, then sure buying used is better value. But if you drive 20,000 miles in a year and include the cost of gas, then it isn't any more and an EV is the way to go. If you include convenience in your formula and own a house, then an EV is definitely the way to go.
I'm gonna keep my 93 miata forever.
Along with collecting as many vehicles as possible.
Right choice.
Smart guy
As "much" vehicles?
@@pixeldoc7119 what are you talking about.
You can only drive one at any given time so having one or many cars makes little difference from an emissions standpoint.
Great insights!! 👍
Well done.
For some time I've thought it best to keep my four cylinder cars on the road. Your comparisons are food for thought, and perhaps I need to rethink my transportation.
Thank you.
The "stuff" (cobalt) is also used in oil refining
To wash out the sulphur
@@toyotaprius79 in much lower quantities
Most Batteries wont use Cobalt in the future
@@jamesv4262 true, did some math, looks like 8% as much per 30mpg car over 200k miles, compared to Tesla's (2018) avg cobalt use per car of 10lbs
@@jamesv4262 True, but much higher quantities of oil are refined than lithium is mined.
I don't get why no one ever talks about modding old cars for better fuel economy. Worst case scenario you're looking at longer rods for increased compression ratio, cams with less overlap, and a tune. That's a fraction of the ecological cost of producing a new car for getting a fuel economy that justifies not ever buying a car as long as it's running well.
Because that's not profitable
It's kind of a losing battle in the long run. You will eventually reach a point where the cost of repair/upgrade is more than the cost of a new EV. The main issue is trusting the mechanic to NOT rip you off every step of the way if you aren't mechanically inclined or willing enough to DIY everything.
Mod it to electric.
@@difflocktwo can't wait for this to be less expensive. also batteries are bulky, hard to pack in 300mi of range without the batts being integral to the car design.
@@tron121 I just need like 10-20 miles per day. My ebike has less than 2 kWh and the limiting factor is that I'm gonna get pretty bored sitting on that thing hour after hour.
Thanks for settling it! I took your data points and made a spreadsheet where I can just drop in the mpg of any vehicle I'm looking at and it will plot it for me. I also have it plotting my previous vehicles in chronological order to see how I've historically done....Thus far all of my purchases have been below the line lol
It's so cool seeing how far your channel has grown and the quality of your videos. I met you briefly at Eric the Car Guy's second meet-up and wanted to say Hi, but I think you disappeared after a while. Awesome stuff :0)
Got my Model Y and Tesla Solar in June, and have already put over 7k miles on it. This combo is a killer! Power generating and charging at home makes the environmental payoff come that much quicker!
Your full of it you know
@@waterloo123100 full of electrons?
💨
@@waterloo123100 I’m afraid I don’t follow. What are you talking about?
Question for Jason: You show what the gas car emissions are, but what about the emissions to get that gas to the car? You include the emissions to get electricity to the EV.
Damn... this video did blow my mind. thanks, you are great.
Excellent video!!
I really felt spoken to moving from my Ridgeline that has been averaging 15 mpg to my Model Y Performance
Huge upgrade
@@IReahpZz it’s impossible to upgrade from a Honda
@@waterloo123100 😂 not even remotely true.
@@IReahpZz So you think 😂 Honda can at least make their body panels fit
@@waterloo123100 I lose sleep at night over the extra mm of space in my Panels. Car drives 100x better with no cost to own and performs far superior to anything Honda has built 😂 clown
Thanks for the metric charts! Any chance you could do these diagrams for Diesel vs. electric too? Would be very interested in this, since diesel cars produce way more NOx and other bad emissions.
Diesels also get way better mpg. My 328d is as roomy and large as a Camry and gets 50-53mpg highway miles.
Your charts suggest that I keep my diesel VW golf TDI forever because it’s literally off the charts lol
Keep up the good work!
FWIW the TDI will probably not last forever
And TDI’s have an appalling NOx emission which is pretty bad for all that live in your neighbourhood
@@user-fy7ri8gu8l so about the se timeframe that my TDI will blow up and cost more for repairs than the car is worth hahaha.
FWIW, I will probably replace it with an electric car when that happens
Thanks for the metric chart!
There's a lot of questions here that are completely unanswered. What if I drive my car very little? I own 3 different vehicles and put maybe 3-4K miles on each per year (if that). It will take me a loooooong time to achieve the same CO2 measurements if I bought 3 electric cars instead. We're talking well over a decade here. All without even going into the economics of how much money it will take to buy 3 Teslas.
Now, the other thing you didn't mention enough is a lovely scenario of replacing your battery. Yes, some of them last 200K and some of them will last 20K because defective batteries do happen. What's the cost to the environment to create a new battery again? That's going to nearly double your EV emissions. Of course a car engine can go bad too but even assuming you're replacing an entire engine the environmental damage is waaaaay lower even if you throw the transmission in as well.
Oh, and I absolutely do not trust a single number coming from Tesla. Considering Elon's propensity to blatantly lie (FSD comes to mind) I wouldn't be shocked at all if those numbers were generated in some very special ways to make Tesla look better. Let's wait until multiple independent sources confirm them at the very least.
Then there's another small elephant in the room. Current figure for recycled lithium batteries in the world stands at 5%. That's best case scenario. Which means there's a good chance your depleted battery will end up in a landfill. Extracting those rare earth materials back from it is a very costly complicated process and right now it's cheaper to buy fresh metals instead. Which is what most manufacturers are doing. So then the question is this - how much damage to the environment does the battery create in a landfill? Not in CO2 but in ground contamination?
DIY folks have a better handle on used EV batteries than Tesla. Usually a battery which fails early will only have a couple of bad cells; replacing the just bad cell or even the entire submodule is a much greener approach than replacing the entire battery. For reference a Tesla battery pack seems to be made of 16 modules, each with around 450 individual cells. There's also a thriving market for secondhand EV batteries for use in home energy storage, DIY vehicle conversions, and other projects. Here even substantially degraded cells can live a second life where the demands are not as great.
Oh, one more thing. Not every electric car is an expensive Tesla with a gigantic battery. Hopefully as EV adoption continues manufacturers will offer different models with different battery sizes and prices. Why pay for and drag around a heavy 250 mile battery if you only need 100 miles of range?
Good points, well made.
Me still driving a ‘69 beetle, nah I’m fine
A '69 Beetle is no interstate cruiser, assume you make other arrangements for anything over 100 miles.
I appreciate the in-depth considering every factor and not glossing over things.
Thank you for this video, this is something I personally had been debating now that I'm about to payoff my car.
I would have also like to see some cost/benefit analysis as well, because as much as we all want to help reduce consumption of "stuff", some of us have to help the environment on a budget and a $35K+ Tesla may not be an option.
I believe that the amount of miles that you put on a year is the most important factor. Also if u can't charge at home don't buy an ev yet.
It's a hard question to answer because everyone's finances are different. If you look at the true "cost" of ICE vehicles, it's horrifying and worth way more than $35K. But you probably mean what are cheaper options vs new EVs so some come to mind are:
A. Used EVs - starting around $5K in CA
B. Public transportation - even diesel powered
C. E-Bikes - can go a long way and easily these days
D. Carpool
Every mile not driven in an ICE car helps.
You could also take an offset strategy, and just determine how you could best help the environment in general. You could get your local governments to focus on environmental things like electric buses even if though you couldn't afford one maybe they can and even if you can't take the bus just having it green is good, and you can still make an impact.
Yes, not everyone has available funds or financing to buy a new EV. There are also used EVs, hybrids, PHEVs, etc. Many old ICE card start becoming very costly to properly maintain after some time as well.
It would be outside of the scope of such a video to calculate every possible situation for everyone.
This is great and interesting but....a very small fraction of car buyers actually give a hoot about the environment. Performance, looks, status, "I just want it" are really the drivers. Luckily, Tesla makes such compelling vehicles that people just want them regardless of any environmental benefit, and that is the true brilliance of Tesla.
People who truly care about the environment look beyond the "I just want it'.
@@PygKLB Yes, and good MPG at a low purchase price equals a sound financial choice, not and environmental decision really.
FINALLY! Thank you for doing this video, properly so! :-) I've been telling my ignorant friends how driving around in my old diesel Panda Trueno (which does over 60 MPG) is better for the environment than getting a new car, of any kind.
you should consider, that your old diesel is not only emitting CO2, but a variety of other greenhouse gases and substances which have a negative effect on the environment. But an MPG of 60 is still way above average, so i guess its fine😄
@@nobodynobody3903 I know about the NOx emissions, I'm sure my fellow countrymen are ingesting enough cancerous particles in other ways. XD I mean, I would like to have a different car (say a CR-Z for example) but I got what I got and I'll stick to it and maintain it well for the time being.
@@Noukz37 Seems legit to me🤷♂️😄
@@Noukz37 At the end of the day switching to an EV requires more financial strain on folks who might not be able to afford the change rather than just using thoughts and prayers for the environment, unfortunately.
@@FixingWithFriends I think so, but they're useless anyway XD
Cool video! I would have really liked to see how plug in hybrids compared as I think you made a similar video back in the day.
He's a Tesla fanboy now so I'm not sure he's much interested in showing regular and plugin hybrids for comparison. I bet they come out cleaner than his beloved Tesla in many cases.
As an owner of two Rav 4 Prime in the first 6 months of ownership I drove 4,400 miles (Covid kept the numbers down usually it would be 6k) and 86% of those niles was in EV. I literally drove 6 months on one tank of gasoline.
Rav 4 PHEV makes sense if you drive less than 42 miles (34 in the winter) one way and have access to a charge station and park it while at work during the day because there is no fast charge option.
@@InternetDude And you can actually go on a long trip with it.
@@InternetDude LOL! They have a tailpipe! I guarantee that a PHEV will not come out cleaner than a BEV.
@@usa-ev I guess you don’t understand the concept of emissions while mining lithium and cobalt?
I highly appreciate the research insight, and time spent creating this and other videos. In regards to this one, excellent points! BUT... none of it matters if one doesn't care about the environment.
Option 5: keep current car, spend Tesla money investing in a plot of vacant land and farm timber on it. Timber payback starts from 5 years, carbon capture offsets some of your extra mpg emissions from day one and increases over time.
Interesting option. Bamboo would probably be better as it pulls more carbon in a shorter time.
@@RobertGoley oh ok a Bamboo skateboard
"Over 200.000 miles, the life of the car..." Meanwhile I'm driving a 350.000 miles car still going strong.
Amazing unbiased explanation
Hey greetings from Germany and thanks a lot for also doing all of this for metric! :D
Considering the amount of new cars that are being leased I don’t think there is any emissions offset with electric. Someone getting a new EV every 3 years is creating the same/more overall emissions than someone with an old ICE within a 7 year time period.
It's not like those cars go to landfill though they enter the used market and usually keep going for a further 10-15 years by 1-5 different owners, as current EVs age and depreciate due to loss of range they will push old ICEVs out of circulation.
In addition to RWoody's point, it's not really fair to compare someone buying a new electric every few years to someone who drives their old gasoline powered car into the ground. A more useful comparison would be between someone buying an electric every few years and buying an ICE every few years. Both are bad, but the ICE is worse.
@@raf74hawk12 assuming we are only looking at one persons carbon footprint we cannot factor in what happens to the car after it’s returned. Leasing 3 new EVs over 9 years will be the same emissions as leasing 3 new ICEs in 9 years or having a 9+ year old ICE due to what it takes to be made. Granted every new car is a used car for someone else, so it will reduce overall emissions. I guess the world wouldn’t work if everybody only brought used cars…eventually we’d run out of cars.
@@bmwmsport11 why would you look at one persons carbon footprint though? what we're interested in when calculating carbon footprints is the effect on the environment, correct? well then a single person is an extremely inaccurate way of doing that. Practically all cars "live" for somewhere between 10-20 years and the fact that one person buys a new one every 3 years doesn't change the fact that it each one will continue to be used for at least 7 years afterwards. at any one time there will be only as many cars on the road as people are driving them and no more so if you want to calculate the environmental impact of cars you would calculate it from the cars lifespan not any individual's ownership span.
It wasn't until the metric consumption chart when I realised this is talking purely to US audience. With the 2019 EU average consumption being at 45 mpg US (5.2 l/100km) it definitely doesn't make sense to change :D
Electric vehicles are being pushed hard even though they’re aren’t an ethical or environmentally friendly alternative, we already have net 0 emission fuels for combustion engines but they aren’t being pushed. Sugarcane ethanol and Synthetic fuel from Porsche… companies just want an excuse to sell more expensive electric vehicles even though most countries can’t support full electrification nor are any set up with environmentally friendly electrical systems either
@@megamatt614 large cities, as they have in Europe, are not just dealing with climate change issues but mostly with air quality and noise pollution.
Switching to EV certainly addresses this while synthetic fuel doesn't improve local air quality nearly as much as EV
You gotta look into how EU numbers looks if you wanna compare anything.
Electricity grid is much cleaner, especially in Nordic countries. Also, you can charge your caro partly from solar in summer. So, it does make sense to change, with our progressively changing grid to renewables. Besides that, some EV's could in future act as V2G (vehicle to grid), so pretty soon they could reduce and help with grid peaks while standing still (they do 90% of the time).
In EU, gas/diesel is also much more expensive than US, and some places in EU electricity is much cheaper than US, so you could also say tha economically (also maintenace costs), it makes insane sense to switch to EV, unless you drive so little that bicycle could cover your annual commutes. In Denmark, its about 4-5 times cheaper to drive EV from running costs, already now.
@@megamatt614 I'm not buying that argument at all. Land use is already a huge problem today, and dedicating even larger amounts of agriculture to fueling general transportation sounds very unsustainable. Synthetic fuel is also extremely energy inefficient, and thus inherently expensive. And all companies want to sell their stuff, that's just a nonsensical argument. A real reason electric vehicles are being pushed is because a lot of scientifically literate people have been pushing for it for about a decade. Alternative fuel sources are (rationally) for niche vehicles with special energy density requirements. BEV TCOs have potential to be far lower than ICEVs very soon.
@@96Lauriz fuel and electricity costs are mainly driven by how much the individual governments decide to tax a single unit of energy. With a shift from petrol/diesel to electricity for private mobility, the taxes will follow and it will not be as cheap to recharge a BEV simply because taxes are unavoidable (the EU demands from each country strict rules about yearly debt increases and their nature)
My Forester is already 10 years old and I had thought I would keep it until it is 20. I’m also eager to get an EV and your logic makes it easier to consider this sooner rather than later.
Love your videos Jason! Watched the CNBC video too. Can you do a video on how recyclable Teslas and maybe other EVs and ICEs are?
I think they have to standardize the batteries into smaller easily replaceable packs. Then it might be more economically feasible to buy an electric car with high range.
Need 3:rd parties to get involved. With battery replace/service centers.
It'll never happen.. just look at cell phone batteries...
For those of us not living in the US you should probably have made clearer in the EV-ICE plot that it is using the US energy mix. It would also be interesting to see what that plot looks like for a more renewable heavy energy mix.
Polestar also did a manufacturing analysis that would also serve as a good source for confirming the Tesla numbers.
And the grid is also getting greener over time, and this transition is accelerating as well.
He did state that it was the US energy mix.
Great Video! I have a 2012 Seat Mii with an automatic transmission, and his emissions are about 96 grams CO² per kilometer. Basically, I have to do alot of driving before I start noticing the gas gauge needle go down. It's a great little car (and it also helps that I try to use public transport as much as possible).
This was a great video! It would be nice to have the charts but have a line for each 5k km use per year. So one at 5k, one at 10k etc.
Thanks for the very informative information. This can help my partner convinced that my decision to buy a used Tesla model S is actually better than keeping her 25 miles/hr SUV in about three years. Since I'm buying a used Tesla, I also avoided the production carbon penalty you pointed out.
This is a very interesting analysis, Jason. Although I would never trust figures that came from Tesla about their own products! I know it only affects the numbers marginally, but I think it's worth mentioning that gas cars are getting high scrutiny, while electric cars are all best-case-scenario these days. The agenda does alter the analysis somewhat.
I was going to make a similar comment. I don't know that Tesla is skewing the numbers but I'd to see them come from a skeptical source as well.
He did already make a video calculating the production emissions of an electric by adding the ones required to produce an ICE vehicle and adding what some researches say is required on average for the battery.
Great video as always. Would love to see a video from you (if you haven’t already?) on buying carbon offsets from this perspective. Like how does a 2021 Bronco + buying carbon offsets for your estimated emissions from that vehicle compare to buying a Model 3 instead after X number years?
I'd like to see a comparison between a highly driven car and an EV. Including whether its better to buy/trade your old or relatively new, high km car for a new car or EV
At least where I live the EV charging infrastructure is nowhere near good enough, and my daily driving isn't exactly predictable, so that middle ground of a hybrid is my best option.
Hybrids are often worse than economic gasoline cars in practice, you should consider that
@@nobodynobody3903 it really depends on the hybrid. I often say the plug-in hybrids are kinda best of both worlds _and_ worst of all worlds at the same time. Because while you combine the strengths of EV and fuel cars (long operating range, very efficient in city driving), they also have to lug around dead weight regardless of which mode they use at the time, be that ICE or battery. And you also _pay_ for both, too.
But then there's the older type of hybrids, the non-chargeable ones, like your Toyota Prius or Honda Insight -- these are pretty much your regular gasoline car with a small battery pack that helps them recover some of that braking energy and deal with the hardest part of driving on fuel economy -- the start-stop traffic of a big city. While you definitely aren't getting far in one of those on justt the battery, these _will_ often have significantly improved fuel economy over the pure ICE counterpart while not being all that more expensive or heavier.
Oh, and don't discount the hydrogen cars just yet. While for small passenger cars EVs might be the future, I can definitely see the trucking industry and mass transit embracing hydrogen instead. But we shall see.
I'd love for you to get your hands on one of them new "Subaru Performance Transmissions". I'd like to know if it's all marketing or if they've actually improved their CVT in the WRX.
CVT in a WRX?? 🤮
@@mengx94 a CVT has the potential to be much faster than the manual. And Subarus chain driven CVTs are amazingly strong. The 4,500lb Ascent has a 5,000lb towing limit with a CVT, and it's the same engine going into the WRX, just tuned differently.
Mostly it's just the longevity of them being driven hard. Heat kills them and if the chain slips once then it's only a matter of time before it fails completely.
Hell, Formula 1 cara used them till they were banned. Amazingly capable transmissions. They just don't handle abuse long term.
@@ChadRazorback It's not the speed of the transmission. It's the engagement with your driving experience.
Manual is definitely "slower" for shifts than double clutch autos and so forth.
But paddle shifters are trash compared to the sheer joy of dropping into second to start a throttle drift, with that knob in the palm. Giggity.
@@daemonsilver3304 Fun is subjective. Some people just want to smash their foot down and rocket around curves and not have to worry about rev-matching or when to shift etc... I agree with manuals being for fun for me too, but I see the appeal of a sports car that also functions as an easy to drive daily.
@@ChadRazorback the new cvt sounds like a rebranded, retuned version of their current WRX CVT. Not a bad transmission but no CVT will ever downshift like real gears. Which isn’t a big deal for most people. Main issue is these Subaru CVTs are hit or miss with reverse/drive engagement. The lag between selections is mind numbing.
My '30 year old beater gets around 41 mpg avg, and doesn't really eat oil or coolant. I'm going to keep it for a while longer as my daily, the petrol beaters out right now, will best case match that MPG. When electric becomes financially feasible for me, I will use that for commutes. According to your charts, I would need above 100 mpg, which would need to be electric. Thank you for the wonderful video Jason!
Since 2011, I have been riding scooters. I have a 1997 GMC Safari Van for grocery trips, or really bad weather, with 175,000 miles on it. It had 95,000 on it when I bought it more than 20 years ago. My newest scooter is getting around 113 mpg. No, "e" here. Top speed around 65 mph. I've put over 50,000 miles on 3 different scooters since 2011. I still have 2, and sold the first one to another guy with around 25,000 miles on it, 110cc, Honda Elite. Never failed to start, never had the battery replaced.
Makes sense just can't imagine shelling out almost $40k for a new car
That's fair!
"For folks that prefer metric", noting that 95% of the world's population uses metric. Good video though, Jason. I'll note that my electricity is ballpark 80% renewable which helps a whole lot.
Outstanding!
Excellent video!! Thanks!!! I think you should include biofuels in the analysis next time.
So, you think that getting infos about Tesla from Tesla's own publications is the best way to gather unbiased information?
Great video! Could you do a comparison between a PHEV (i.e. Honda Clarity) and a full EV? I remember reading that an EV battery is large enough to accommodate multiple PHEVs, and in terms of net fuel savings, selling multiple PHEVs net less burned fuel than selling one EV. And considering PHEV users are primarily running on EV only, I wonder how close (or far) the emissions gap stands. Essentially, is a PHEV a good enough alternative?
As long as you plug in regularly, I think a PHEV will actually have the least emissions. Think of how much smaller the battery is and how long the whole car would last. A Tesla battery out of warranty is $22,500.
Big brain: PHEV but the engine is hydrogen. So 90% of the time you use electricity, and the other 10% you still use electricity, but inefficiently.
@@InternetDude WTF...that's about $30k in Australia!
@@InternetDude With a PHEV you are cycling the batteries 0-100% daily ... so idk about really long term between pure EV on that. (PHEV do typically seem to have large buffers of reserved capacity tho, so I'm sure that helps)
"And considering PHEV users are primarily running on EV only" - unfortunately studies have shown that average consumers don't plug in and the emissions and fuel economy end up being worse than an HEV due to the larger battery.
Used properly it would be an interesting conversation, but it is only a valid conversation until manufacturers are no longer battery constrained which is coming quickly. After that BEVs are better by far, and given the short duration of this constrained time remaining, BEVs are probably already better given the lifetimes of the vehicles.
😂😂😂 his dry humor is the best. Great video I really do learn a lot from your video's and Stuff😂.
😂😂 his shot's fired at the Ford Bronco was swift.