The Unfortunate Truth About Toyota's Hydrogen V8 Engine
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 27 ต.ค. 2022
- Can Toyota's Hydrogen V8 Save Combustion Engines?
How Toyota's Hydrogen Engine Works - • Toyota's Developing A ...
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Toyota partnered with Yamaha to develop a hydrogen powered V8 engine, derived from the 5.0L V8 used on the Lexus RC F. The engine produces 450 horsepower by burning hydrogen, and thus has no direct carbon emissions. Unfortunately, there's a big problem with hydrogen combustion vehicles, as this video will demonstrate.
From the Yamaha Press Release:
"In November last year, the five companies of Kawasaki Heavy Industries, Subaru Corporation, Toyota Motor Corporation, Mazda Motor Corporation, and Yamaha Motor jointly announced they would begin discussions for conducting collaborative research into possible avenues for expanding the range of fuel options for internal combustion engines in the quest for carbon neutrality. And at the announcement venue, the V8 hydrogen engine shown above, which was developed by Yamaha for Toyota, was unveiled to the public. The unit is based on the 5.0-liter engine in the Lexus RC F luxury sport coupe, with modifications made to the injectors, cylinder heads, intake manifold, and more, and delivers up to 450 hp at 6,800 rpm and a maximum 540 Nm of torque of at 3,600 rpm."
References:
Yamaha - www.yamaha-motor.eu/cy/en/new...
Hydrogen Storage - www.energy.gov/sites/prod/fil...
Toyota Mirai - toyota-cms-media.s3.amazonaws...
Hydrogen Combustion Review - www.mdpi.com/1996-1073/14/19/...
Hydrogen Combustion Eff. - www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/....
AFDC Fuel Properties - afdc.energy.gov/files/u/publi...
Hydrogen Prices - www.motortrend.com/reviews/20...
BMW Hydrogen 7 Road Test - www.hydrogen.energy.gov/pdfs/...
DOE Hydrogen - www.hydrogen.energy.gov/pdfs/...
Hydrogen Storage - doi.org/10.1016/j.ijhydene.20...
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I love how Jason gave me hope at the beginning of the video, then ripped my heart out and kept destroying it meticulously into little pieces as the video went along. Very informative though! 😂
The problem is…
… if we had to stop creating gasoline/diesel ICE today, the copper & rare earths for batteries becomes a bottleneck for any battery cars & H2 fuel cell cars (ignoring issue with electrical generation & transmission)
… if we had to to stop creating gasoline/diesel ICE today, H2 ICE could replace it with relatively little effort (ignoring issue with H2 generation & transmission)
The electrical grid issue for EV’s is a huge nut to crack. The spikes in power usage, around rush hour & when people get home, will be immense. Massive local batteries can be used, to mitigate, but that wipes out carbon footprint benefit EV’s offer. Not enough attention is given to this.
The hydrogen generation problem is significant, but can be addressed in many ways, from natural gas being used with H2 mix & transport over existing natural gas pipelines, replacing natural gas infrastructure with H2 piping as mix levels grow too high, transportation via truck to fill up sites like existing gasoline/diesel, to local H2 generation (using local solar & wind) into local hydrogen storage, slowly over time, for rapid fill ups.
No technology is perfect, but locality & availability & supply chain issues & temporary storage issues must all be considered.
I too was hopeful for more buckets with American flag to be disappointed there is only one. So disingenuous!!
LOL if anyone stops to think, the amount of atmospheric hydrogen you'd have to bring along in the balloon probably has enough buoyancy to life the whole damn car! Mount a prop on it, and fly, fly, fly awaaaaaaaaay.....
@@DavidHalko did you not watch the video? The entire video was about how storing enough hydrogen in an H2 ICE car for long range is impossible. If people are willing to cut their car’s range to a fifth of what it was originally, then they might as well get a short range EV. In fact, if more manufacturers started selling affordable short range EVs, then there wouldn’t be such a demand on batteries as there is currently, which would alleviate the problem you mentioned.
Remember, the car's shape is mostly aesthetic, if the V8 engine vehicle has a form-factor of a Van or an SUV it solved the problem magically.
i have a solution which is both perfect for safety and storage space: instead of storing the hydrogen inside the body of the vehicle, you pump it into a giant baloon which you then attach to the car by hose, that way as you drive around the baloon just floats above your car and in case of car crash it just detaches and flies away
perfect
Make sure you never drive underneath power cables, an overpass... anything actually!
Sounds like someone hasn't heard of the Hindenburg disaster.
@@TickyTack23 Issa joke my guy
Dragging mini hindenburgs without crossing their feeding cables in rush hour, with excellent buoyancy control to keep them a cruise altitude and without extra dragging to the vehicule, yeah it seems legits.....
but all the little kids are gonna cry, when the balloon flies away.
I don’t doubt your point about Hydrogen being impractical as a fuel for a V8 sports car, but I noticed that when you talked about liquid Hydrogen and the 75% reduced space requirement, you went from 21 five gallon buckets, to 12 five gallon buckets. 12 is not 25% of 21??? If I heard you wrong and you meant a 25% reduction of space, then the math still doesn’t equal 12 buckets, from 21 originally used.
So the deal is with liquid nitrogen you can store 75% more energy in the same space. 75% of 12 buckets is 9 buckets. 12 buckets plus 9 buckets = 21 buckets. So you can store the same amount of energy in 12 liquid hydrogen buckets as you can in 21 buckets of gaseous hydrogen
Just like freon they are liquid and gas.
Thank-you for these insights. I have seen at least one other concurring analysis. It’s not very practical for passenger automobiles. What about semis, buses, and heavy construction equipment? Would love to see your take on that.
Stay safe.
Hydrogen busses are definately a thing. The local transport authority where I'm at has a few. But they've had them for 10-15 years now and never rolled it out to a fleet replacement so I can only assume that while they are useful for "Look we are doing an environmental thing!", they might not make a lot of economic sense.
Or even environmental sense given how the hydrogen is currently being produced.@@shayneoneill1506
Hydrogen buses use fuel cells.
Still makes more sense to do hydrogen fuel cell because you waste a lot less
Hydrogen powered buses are now on the road in the UK Midlands.
The fact that they developed it even though it doesn't make much sense, gives me hope. Putting the work, effort and money into an idea that doesn't guarantee profit is something we don't see often these days.
The problem is when physics says you can't be successful. I recommend to first check if success is one of the possible outcomes according to the laws of physics, and then trying to build something within that framework.
It's called marketing and it worked on you..
Also: equating "doesn't make much sense" with "doesn't guarantee profit" is pretty funny. Kudos
@@robben4days569 Damn. You are smart. You should go help Toyota and Yamaha figure out how to do their jobs 😉
It does make sense once you understand how limited Japan is in terms of electricity generation, their unique location puts them un a bad spot that's why they bet on hydrogen and that's why they bet on nuclear. Just because a solution can work in some places doesn't mean it can work anywhere
@@F14Goose37 Being paid to do something doesn't automatically make you right, as someone else said hopefully they knew this and only wanted to develop it for the enthusiast market, it is well known ICEs powered by hydrogen would never be practical
I actually rode in one of those hydrogen 7 Series at the Frankfur motor show.
Because the hydrogen eats up oil, the engine more or less ran unlunbricated. therefore it made a horrible rattling sound and had to be rebuilt constantly.
Not to mention the fact that all the weight from the colossal hydrogen tanks made it the slowest V12 car on the planet...
On the bright side, if you parked it in your garage, you might wake up to find you have a Floating House!
Wouldn't need a car then!
But hydrogen weight's much less than gasoline do you mean like only the strong pressure tanks weight's much
@@valtti6039 Yeah, he means the weight of the tanks. High pressure tanks are not light. Even more so when they have to be rated as crash resistant.
@@valtti6039 Yup, they have to be very thick and so they weigh loads.
@@The.Toaster Thank you for your kind words.
Like I wrote (reading is hard, I know), hydrogen is highly corrosive and it eats up all the engine oil as the two come into contact with each other.
So no matter how big your oil sump, the second your lubricating oil makes contact with hydrogen in the cylinders, it breaks down.
This is why the Hydrogen7 still had a few grams of CO2-emission: because of the lubricating oil that is being eaten away by the hydrogen and spewed into the exhaust system.
no matter the range, if it has power and basicly no emmissions, this is making it superior to any other engine. Not to mention this one of the first, we could get massive power engines in the near future with noone that can complain as it is emission free, in other words, our love for big and high HP cars is secure
Electric motors and batteries are also improving in all areas (safety, capacity, power). Hydrogen with all these pressures is too dangerous for mass production use.
@@dpolyakov1tell that to all the companies developing new hydrogen ICE.
You have to remember hydrogen is only 35% efficient. It is hard to transport, you have to compress, and cool it.
inefficiency is still a big deal. Wasting energy makes running cost expensive and has higher environmental impact. NOx emissions are still there so Fuel cells are gonna remain a better way to utilise Hydrogen as a fuel
Hydrogen is mostly created in factories using Natural Gas as the feedstock, therefore there is emissions from the manufacturing process. Also, the amount of fossil fuels used to create hydrogen, is more than the energy that the hydrogen will provide....so it is a highly inefficient process. Thus far, the most cleanest and energy-efficient vehicles are still the gas-guzzling internal combustion engine vehicles. And nope...I'm not even going to bother breaking down the EV scam...lol
Anyway, hydrogen produced from electrolysis might (again.....MIGHT) be the answer. But even those systems require a lot of energy to go through the process. And even using windmills etc to provide the supposedly clean-energy power to those facilities still creates potent greenhouse gas emissions in the form of Sulphur hexafluoride (SF6 gas) which is thousands of times more potent greenhouse gas than Carbon dioxide. Yep, most people are unaware and surprised when they learn that windmill turbines release potent greenhouse gases....lol
Always great watching your videos giving pros and cons on new development, thanks.
The video demonstrates the problem that's likely the most difficult to solve relating to hydrogen combustion vehicles, though there are other technical challenges. The fueling infrastructure doesn't exist, but it could. Most of today's hydrogen comes from natural gas reformation (hence, carbon emissions), but it can be made cleanly with electrolysis, if the energy source is clean. Making clean hydrogen energy requires tons of energy, but if you're able to generate abundant clean energy, it's slightly less of an issue (efficiency will always matter). Combustion inefficiency makes hydrogen driving quite costly considering it's the equivalent of paying $15/gal. Hydrogen combustion also has NOx emissions, despite no CO2 (okay, a little CO2 from engine oil). NOx is difficult to avoid with combustion engines. Realistically, today's hydrogen engines are less efficient than gasoline/diesel (meaning the bucket situation is very likely worse than shown in the video), but they haven't been perfected as much as gas/diesel. Still, fuel cells & EVs will always be more efficient. And you still need to make sure the 10,000 psi pressure vessel has a safe location in the vehicle. There are many challenges, but it's an interesting subject. Below are related videos, if you're interested in learning more!
Gasoline vs Hydrogen Engine Differences - th-cam.com/video/l6ECwRnJ0Sg/w-d-xo.html
How Toyota's Hydrogen Engine Works - th-cam.com/video/3IPR50-soNA/w-d-xo.html
Mazda's Rotary Hydrogen Engine - th-cam.com/video/U-n5L0cXcpg/w-d-xo.html
Why Hydrogen Engines Are A Bad Idea - th-cam.com/video/1Ajq46qHp0c/w-d-xo.html
How Hydrogen Fuel Cells Work - th-cam.com/video/0jnZFGx_4kY/w-d-xo.html
Look up AngeTheGreat's engine simulator. With a sufficiently powerful on-board computer, you could accurately simulate an entire combustion engine and the sounds it produces, and you could simulate the engine vibrations with tactile transducers in the seats.
Also, you should talk about other kinds of fuel cells, like Direct Borohydride fuel cells, Direct Methanol fuel cells, and Direct Hydrocarbon fuel cells.
Oh, and also the prospect of burning alkali metals (such as sodium and/or lithium) as fuel and their possible environmental impacts.
Bruh, there is literally a hydrogen retrofit system for diesel that uses a 90/10 blend of hydrogen and diesel, bolsters efficiency by 26.2% from 40%, and some conversions generate it on board.
Another thing I’ve said to many people as well. As soon as you say that this innovation is impossible, it ages like milk, and the next week or 2 months, something that was supposed to be impossible is now possible.
The thing is that the hydrogen generated from the chemical industry is just burned at this point, it’s called “grey-hydrogen” because it has impurities, therefore it can’t be used in a fuel cell vehicle, the cost of hydrogen is partially the purification, if we’d switch to hydrogen combustion purification is not needed and the price will decrease
I did research in hydrogen fuel cells. Leading researcher pointed the same problems out, energy in (production of hydrogen, transportation, and storage) doesn't equal anywhere near energy out...not to mention platinum being one of the better materials to produce hydrogen with via electrolysis is insanely expensive.
Regarding cost: H may be $15/gal, but without subsidies, gas would be something like $7-10/gal. So while greater, not by many orders of magnitude.
Regarding space: EVs started out having a smaller range and were fine. If refueling were as quick as gas, 200mi would be more than enough, so long as there are fueling stations. (Chicken vs egg problem, but solvable)
Regarding NOx: would it be possible to use something like DEF to reduce emissions?
Video Idea: explain the differences between an ICE that runs on hydrogen vs dinosaurs. It’d be amazing if it were possible to do a retrofit on existing engines.
Personally, I love the idea of Hydrogen fuel. No battery packs to wear out, weight savings, ability to move the fuel in a pipeline, I think it would scale more efficiently than electricity even if at a lower well to wheel efficiency. Anything to get away from fossil fuels as fast as possible.
I love that Yamaha is always creating new engines. 🙌💯
I was surprised. When i looked at my engine on my Toyota Celica GT-Four, with a 3SGTE engine, one of the most powerful engines Toyota has made.
It said "Yamaha" on it!
Yamaha created the engine... I didn't know that!
Yamaha are very innovative, but this project was always doomed to fail.
@@VenturiLife you have to start somewhere
i think they will find a way in between
@@VenturiLife Failure will lead to success. It's always that cycle.
So we still come back to either gasoline or diesel - battery hybrid as the most affordable, practical, safe to use and available anywhere with no exotic storage requirements or unavailable fuel infrastructure as a still the most common sense solution for now to move the world.
You are very very good at the job of fully explaining this issue with NO CONFUSION! Kudos! to you, sir. Thank you so much. Please keep up the great work. It is very appreciated.
Awesome job! I watched another video and couldn’t conceive the efficiency issue until you explained it. Thank you
Thank you Jason for giving me a better grasp of the concept. However, as this relates to me, I think this is an engineering quandary best handled by Commander Montgomery Scott. Dilithium crystals always energize the time-space continuum.
An old boss had a track record at Riverside (now defunct) in an alt-fuel class. He ran a Fiat on hydrogen with water 'injection'. He said hydrogen doesn't knock, so he ran a 16:1 compression.
didnt they used to do school bus demolition derbies there? I know its now Six Flags New England but I do remember Riverside existing.
@@filanfyretracker i think he meant Riverside International Raceway in California
This is where hybrid gas comes in. Reduce the hydrogen fuel cell to 100 miles, put a small four cylinder with a small battery and great exhaust.
Same power no range anxiety cargo space back.
This is where never say never how about we try this new innovation to solve this old problem comes in.
There is a solution to this problem, the problem is everyone is saying let’s just use proven tech we have today, and not even attempt to solve this this problem as it’s a waste of time.
@@Tigerex966 why? This video isn't about fuel cells (of which we have passenger cars capable of 300+ miles.) It's about how much hydrogen would have to be carried for this traditional ICE to function in a normal car. Hybrid vehicles are a decent stopgap but not attractive as they have multiple systems to maintain and fuel.
Nevermind the initial energy needed to creat the hydrogen at scale.
We should figure out how to use the energy contained in the bonds of an atom to create loads of clean electricity. Imagine if we could do that. Then, maybe we could use the excess power these plants would be producing during the day when it is not needed, due to all the cheap solar on the grid, to produce hydrogen. We could call it pink hydrogen or something so as to not offend the "environmentalists" by calling it blue hydrogen.
Yes, and unfortunately most of it today is derived from natural gas reformation. Need lots of energy to make it!
Scoop it from a nearby star
@@EngineeringExplained we can just suck up some hydrogen clouds in the solar system. Plenty of stars we can colonize
@@F14Goose37 Can't tell if you're trying to make a joke about nuclear power here and mistated what the fission process is, or if you just have a fundamental misunderstanding of "the energy stored in the bonds between atoms"
You keep dashing my dreams of driving a combustion engine 20 years from now
You'll probably still be able to drive one, although the fuel will be incredibly expensive by then.....
The reason you would want this is that current fuel cells require materials like Iridium and Platinum, but there are not enough of either. In fact, the supply of Iridium is in more of a crisis than just about anything battery electric vehicles use.
I would be interested to see the storage needs for a 4 cylinder turbo engine. Presumably, on a vehicle which a 4 cylinder would adequately power, there would be less fuel needed for the same driving range. We shouldn't despair that there's not a perfect hydrogen option yet. We're making progress.
We are? Not me. Do you work for these scammers trying to turn cucumbers into sunligtht?
I have not studied the data on the subject, so I'm not sure whether turbocharging is viable for hydrogen ICE.
Recall that a turbocharger on a gasoline ICE relies on a certain flow rate and pressure coming down the exhaust manifold, consisting of inert atmospheric nitrogen just passing through the system, water vapor, and carbon dioxide.
The intake fuel flow rate (by mass) of hydrogen fuel is considerably lower (largely due to the fuel containing no carbon). Thus, for the same engine power output, the exhaust flow rate (by mass) will also be lower, consisting only of atmospheric nitrogen and water vapor.
That would mean less mechanical energy to tap from the exhaust stream, that you'd use to run the intake compressor.
TLDR: Basically hydrogen engines may not have enough exhaust flow to run a turbo.
If anyone with engineering knowledge about hydrogen internal combustion engine exhaust mass, temperature, and pressure happens to scroll through here, please do leave us a word about this, now I'm very curious myself about the viability of turbocharged hydrogen engines.
Obviously this is a non viable technology in practical terms 4 cilynders turbo or what not . FORGETABOUTIT
@@cykeok3525Could you not use an electric motor to spool up the turbo instead
@@leehenry5764 Well, we could power the intake air compressor entirely with an electric motor (and eliminate the exhaust turbine entirely). However, that electrical power has to come from the alternator, which itself is run by torque from the crankshaft.
So in essence we'd be running a supercharger instead of a turbocharger (using the engine's power output to run an intake compressor). Although this would be a supercharger that takes mechanical energy from the crankshaft, converts it to electrical energy through the alternator, and then back to mechanical energy with a motor powering the intake compressor.
However, generally superchargers actually reduce fuel efficiency due to the added load on the engine (in contrast with turbochargers, that draw on energy from exhaust pressure that is normally wasted anyway). So for increasing *power*, running an intake compressor with an electric motor might help... but it would be reducing fuel efficiency.
(Also, each conversion from one type of energy to another will be lossy, so a fully mechanical supercharger would be more efficient than a mechanical-electrical-mechanical supercharger).
I agree with your conclusion. My only comment would be that the hatchback in the visual bucket display has a 14-15 gallon gas tank underneath, so approx three of the buckets would take up that space, and not be in the hatch area.
That would have eliminated the 3 buckets he had to lay on top of the others. Remove those, and a driver could almost see over the rest of the storage tanks.
@@WeTubule Not really. Everyone of these beckets needs to be bombproof.
You will need all space in the back and a trailer for all that.
Even bigger problem is that hydrogen production isn't environmentally feasible with most hydrogen sourced from fossil fuels and so called green hydrogen being insanely expensive.
Ammonia is a much better fuel which can be generated onsite at a fuel station (if you have enough electricity to spare)
Ammonia can be made using electricity to combine nitrogen from the atmosphere with water and then compress it into a liquid state that can be stored in a tank to refuel your car.
Ammonia has a similar energy density to petrol (gasoline) and can be run in slightly modified internal combustion engines.
Some downsides though as ammonia is extremely toxic and highly flammable in the event of a leak.
Keep up the good work. I was using the video as entertainment AND information so I did not take notes. I think you provide an essential service.
One of the other drawback of high pressure storage it the limited life expectancy of the tanks. They must be inspected at a service interval and then scrapped when they reach specified age.
and that the tanks will weigh more than the H2 in them
15years on the Mirai
@Mitchell Couchman Despite their shortcomings, batteries will always beat hydrogen economically due to the laws of physics.
@Mitchell Couchman they’re safer to have you seen a lithium battery fire the car literally turns molten.
@Mitchell Couchman the cost of electricity for a much more efficient BEV is generally cheaper than the cost of the fuel for a gasser.
When I was a kid in my High School engineering class (circa 1985), we watched videos about plastic engine parts in Pintos and Hydrogen ICE, and I thought for sure it was the future. I always wondered why it never came true until I found EE years ago. I still love learning about energy technology, and Jason never lets me down with his channel, making fun videos that explain the math behind what he is talking about.
Yes, futurism, the belief that all problems simply need time and "smart people" working on them to be solved, is a fallacy.
Smart people working on a problem can tell you what will _not_ work, and they should be listened to.
Of course, that is not to imply that optimism and hope should be eliminated from the scenario, but levity is key.
Plastic engine parts definitely exist in VW cars🤣
I would point out that the three tiny fuel cells in the Mirai is a relatively inefficient means of storage in terms of space, and is not a great benchmark for a method of storing hydrogen. It's bad data to extrapolate from. A larger vessel would be more efficient in terms of space because the three cells have redundant walls. I also find using the 21 buckets in the hatchback comparison a little problematic because you're not using counting for the existing fuel tank in the car. You can cut at least 3 gallons out of the equation, assuming there's a 15 gallon tank underneath.
And, as other have pointed out, we can do a whole hell of a lot better than 19MPG on hydrogen, so while it may not be feasible to get 300 miles of range with sports car performance, you can certainly get a car with 300 mile range on hydrogen. That's not to say there aren't salient points and valid concerns, but I"m not throwing hydrogen by the wayside just yet. Trucking, for example, is going to be incredibly difficult to do with EVs because the batteries have to be so large that their weight becomes counterproductive. There's a much stronger chance they go hydrogen, which means the infrastructure should go up while costs go down.
Fuel cells don't store hydrogen.
I believe the engineering behind the design of this engine would have thought about this at the beginning. And I'm sure they did.
They did. This video is disingenuous beyond belief 😂
@@pedroj3432 yeh i feel that too
NO. Toyota is vehemently and politically opposed to the transition to electric vehicles and is willing to spend millions on creating this kind of dead-end nonsense, just as a decoy from their main objective which is to prolong the production of petrol and diesel engined vehicles. The ENORMOUS technical problems of storing and distributing hydrogen to the "gas station" far out-weigh the "size of the gas tank" problem demonstrated here. Then there is the problem of how much energy is needed to produce hydrogen. I'm an engineer and have some understanding of these issues. You proclaim to be a believer in engineering without ANY understanding of what engineering is. Go back to school and pay attention to the physics, maths and chemistry teachers in particular. You are currently not qualified to comment (unless blind faith is an acceptable accreditation).
A TH-camr thinks he knows more than Toyota engineers 🤦♂️
because the toyota engine uses an hho cell to produce the hydrogen on demand and only requires a small water tank? @@pedroj3432
The take away from this is V8's guzzle fuel regardless of what that fuel is.
It would be interesting to know exactly how big (external dimensions) the Mirai's tanks are. That would give you a pretty accurate idea of how much Hydrogen you could carry in a given car.
My 3.0 diesel twin turbo turns in 35mpg. And develops 280bhpBut yes, a big engine turning at high rpm has a lot of friction. That diesel rarely gets over 3000 rpm.
Actually my new v8 gets 4 miles per gallon minimum MORE than my old v6 same vehicle car manufacturer 2012 v6 2021 v8
@@noonehere1793 Well it depends on the capacity. And many other things. You would be surprised how much power all that stuff driven off the serpentine belt saps. And how moving to electric power steering and cooling fans improves gas mileage.
My V6 is13 years old now. The later equivalent is a twin turbo 2.2 litre straight 4 turbodiesel that develops nearly the same power but gets over 40mpg on a longer run.
The vehicles' total weight when fueled should be an indicator of how much the hydrogen tank can hold (as opposed to a gasoline powered version) as some vary slightly.
The number of cylinders is not one of main contributing factors in fuel efficiency. It’s mostly displacement. The amount of power needed and being used plays a big part as well. A v8 running at 3-4k rpm will get better efficiency than an underpowered 4 or 6 cylinder that needs to rev high to make the necessary power. Electric vehicles powered off the electrical grid is far less efficient. 61% of the electricity is from fossil fuels and 21% from coal. Lots of power is lost in transmission from oil and coal to electricity, more is lost sending it from the power plants to your house, and again more is lost charging the batteries.
I really like Jason, he explains things in a way that is understandable. He also throws in some humor so the material is not dry. Thanks Jason.
It can never be dry with hydrogen engines lmao
As with EVs and ICEs, what emissions are required to build the HV? High-pressure holding tanks are difficult to construct and require high-grade steel or similar materials. Has a comparative study been made for HVs?
We've come full circle. I'm ordering my new Hindenburg blimp. Why get stuck in traffic when you can soar above! Gotta love it!
Would have been nice if you mentioned the 2005-2007 BMW 7 still retained their gasoline tanks and were actually dual fuel in 6.0 V12. You could fill up on hydrogen, burn that to zero and not worry about leakage.
Yeah, a lot of cool facts about the Hydrogen 7, probably worthy of its own video!
@@EngineeringExplained After watching the video, It's silly how Toyota think hydrogen car is the future....
@@hollymolly518 yes I agree but think but think back in 60's when they said 4 stroke motocycles can't be powerful... or when honda bring variables timing (vtec). Hydrogen will maybe never be used. But they maybe create or discover something new.
@@hollymolly518 i’m guessing they are going with a hydrogen electric plug-in hybrid.
@@hollymolly518 They keep pushing the hazards under the rug too. A 10Kpsi tank is basically a bomb. It will take an expensive tank to store it safely. But then you have the problem of car accidents. So it must further be protected from damage. Then we have the problem of fire safety. If any leaks out, the range of mixtures in air that is flammable is larger than pretty much every other gas. So it will be easy to ignite by comparison. It is good that it is lighter than air though, which will help it dissipate.
With all the issues of poor efficiency from energy source to movement, the hazards and the high cost, I don't understand why we are still talking about it. The money and time would be better spent finding low cost, high energy density batteries made of readily available materials.
Hi Jason, Daimler Trucks is currently developing a semi truck with liquid hydrogen as a fuel and a fuel cell called the GenH2 with an anticipated range of more than 600 mi. A prototype is already running on public roads. I'm working for the company that developed the tank. If you need an even closer insight into the technology and why it can make sense for semi trucks hit me up.
I'd like to hear more about that!
Awesome, but know I want a V8 in my semi. 🙃
@@mennovanlavieren3885 Hard to find one that's not an inline-6.
@@wagnerrp Not if you live in Europe and like Scania 👍🏻
Right, those trucks use *fuel cell* technology, not an internal combustion engine.
insane info and presentation thank you, very very intresting
I don't think I will ever NEED a V* engine.
A less expensive engine with a better range and less vroom vroom could be useful. With a battery or fuel source that does not explode or catch fire easily, or cause fires that are impossible to put out.
Thank you Jason. As a fellow engineer, I am disheartened to see how people are getting fooled by some PR offices...
As a fellow engineer I am disheartened of how other engineers can believe everything they see on YT. Storage is not the issue with H2 ICE...for certain applications. High NOx, is the main issue that I don't expect to be overcome soon. There should be an asterisk next to the power figure since acceptable NOx cuts power in half. Storage IS the issue for small engines however. You could consider a battery powered cryo cooler to keep your liquid H2 cold, but your overall process would be too inefficient, therefore costly. It won't work for passenger vehicles.
But...ASSUMING they can overcome the NOx issue...what if you don't care about venting because you are constantly using fuel? Think long haul trucking or marine. Also large industrial machinery, mining trucks etc with extremely high duty cycles. Or race cars for that matter. H2 could be a feature of track only supercars.
There are huge IFs related to H2 ICE (H2 turbines work great btw), but don't write them off based on storage. That's a red herring. Yamaha and Toyota aren't dummies.
Look beyond your nose amigos.
@@2hedz77 Just for your info, I work in a marine engine factory, and I am not going to write a treaty on alternative fuels as a comment on yt. There may be a small niche for H2 ICE, even if I strongly doubt it. However, I am convinced that at Toyota, on this topic, they are indeed dummies, fooled by a hatred for BEV, by the typical silos thinking of japanese keiretsu and by the ties with fossil fuel industry.
@@2hedz77 he's just talking about the modified RCF, which is a 450hp H2 engine in a sports car.
@@satunnainenkatselija4478 What's wrong with just 540J? Anyway, we don't travel by metres (or yards for that matter). For the same reason, SI unit of mass is kg, not g.
@@2hedz77 As a fellow engineer, Storage is always the issue with H2.
I think for those looking to hold on to the combustion engine, the new sustainable, carbon neutral fuels that F1 is championing for 2026 will be the way. If the billions of current combustion engines can stay in use with carbon neutral fuels, that's kind of best case scenario for everyone at this point.
Yeah, I feel synthetic fuel will be a possibility, before hydrogen takes off.
@@syed_mamoon99 The increasing likelihood of civil war in the entire western world may rapidly increase the reliance on biodiesel, as the civilian populace would continue to generate power in diesel generators and move troops and other assets via diesel haulers.
People who want "alternative fuels" "for the environment" aren't schizo enough to understand that soylent green is on the horizon. Eat bugs, live in pods, shuttle around on government transportation, go outside when you're allowed to, etc.
These rules will only apply to the common man. It's only bad when we do it.
@@syed_mamoon99 but then that means they can still control our fuel. That's the goal is to escape from their agenda to control us more.
So we have to grow fuel, meaning less space to grow food, meaning prices will go up. And this is so your V8 makes noises as you drive around? F1 is a mouthpiece for big oil
No It Is hybrids Just Like the Railroad Has Been Doing For DECADES! Right Now It Is More carbon Friendly Just To Drive Your Old honda Than Buy an EV! We Have To Produce and Refine Petroleum Every Thing in Our Cars, Homes and Offices is A Byproduct Of Refining gasoline! If All Cars Were Electric And We Somehow We Charged Them Without Burning Fossil Fuels It would Only Reduce Our Carbon Footprint By 10% That Is Why The Left Hates Math!! It Exposes Their NONSENSE!!
If future "sport" cars go the current 2x2 setup (even though the rear seats are completely unusable). That extra space can easily be utilised for fuel storage. Even though the Mirai doesn't equate to a sports car, the storage vessel could be moved to other platforms (as they did in the Toyota Racing hydrogen fueled Corolla) to get a very reasonable range (Mirai is 647km/402.027m per tank). Even with a smaller vessel, it would easily hit 300m.
The biggest issue from my perspective is lack of infrastructure. Not sure what it's like stateside, but up here in BC Canada it's laughable. And that's with Toyota assisting with infrastructure investment. For example. I live in Victoria, the capital city, on Vancouver Island. There's 1 station for the entire city. But wait. That's the only hydrogen station on the entire island (the island is 503kms/312miles long via highway), so you can't really go any farther than mid-island before having to turn around. From what I understand, the mainland, Vancouver especially, hasn't fared any better, so even getting out of the province is questionable.
It's really only the infrastructure that's different between electric and hydrogen, and electric has had quite a head start. 3-5 years that could easily change if the public demands it. And there's 12 FCEV's hitting the market in 2024 with 500+ miles/tank, so there has to be infrastructure to support them.
On board generation was demonstrated by several patents back in the 70s. The rotary engine whick is now being optimized as th "Liquid Piston" is a very good candidate.Use the efficiency to generate electicity to cleave the H2O molecule.
Sorry but no, that's never been demonstrated. It's only been hypothesized by people who failed their physics class, and has never been made a reality.
To be specific:
You can't use electrolysis to generate hydrogen, and then use the generated hydrogen to create more electricity in a positive feedback loop.
It's a negative feedback loop. There's no excess energy, only energy loss.
You’d need some additional energy source to generate the hydrogen. I wonder how
You drove the point of hydrogen having low volumetric energy density (about 8% of that of gasoline, even when liquified, not counting the tanks themselves) home pretty well 😀
That's one of the reasons Delta Heavy is the only remaining (and not for long) launch vehicle using hydrogen as the first stage fuel. (Be sure to find a video of its launch - it is spectacular. Hydrogen initially venting from engines as they start up engulfs the whole rocket in flames - perfectly normal.) It _is_ still used in some upper stages, such as venerable Centaur, where every additional second of specific impulse gained is critical (specific impulse measures how much momentum the engine imparts on the vehicle per unit mass of propellant spent, and, yes, it is expressed in seconds if you use some consistent system of measures, such as SI.) Centaur's Aerojet Rocketdyne RL10x achieve about 450s of Isp compared to less than 300 SpaceX Merlin (propelling Falcon 9 rockets) does. Other engines, either kerosene (RP1), methane or even hypergolic fueled, are in the ballpark - RL10 gets about 50% better fuel efficiency than any of them.
In addition (you perhaps did not stress this enough) hydrogen ICE has less than half of thermodynamic efficiency of fuel cell / electric motor combination.
But that V8 _does_ look gorgeous! 😀
Ariane 5, H-II, and Long March 5 all currently use hydrogen in their core stages. The upcoming Ariane 6, H3, and SLS will all do the same.
If you're specifically excluding anything using strap-on boosters, then Delta IV is not just the only *remaining* hydrogen launcher, but the only one *ever*.
@@lazarus2691 Yes. all those had most of first stage thrust coming from SRBs. Actually, Hydralox core was more like a second stage, 1.5 th, perhaps, so that high specific impulse requirement counts more than high volume detriment does.
Thanks for clarification.
@@bazoo513 With that restriction, Delta IV Heavy is the one and only orbit-capable hydrolox launch vehicle ever built, not just the only one remaining.
"RL10x achieve about 450s of Isp compared to less than 300 SpaceX Merlin" - You are unfairly comparing the vacuum performance of an upper stage engine to the sea level performance of a first stage engine. (Rocket engines are less efficient in air than vacuum because they waste some energy pushing the atmosphere out of the way of the exhaust.)
Compare the RL10 to the upper stage variant of Merlin 1D, which has a vacuum Isp of 348s. Or, compare the sea level performance of first stage Merlin 1D, 282s, to the sea level performance of a hydrogen first stage engine like RS-25 (Space Shuttle Main Engine), 366s.
The real, apples-to-apples specific impulse difference is large, but not nearly as big as you make it sound.
Please expand this comment into a TH-cam video (use lots of graphics)
I’m sure they’ll figure out a combination of pressurizing and increasing engine efficiency to improve storage vs range
Pressurized hydrogen is a pain, it's huge in volume and it leaks.. a lot... :)
Storing it in hydride solid crystals works better, the problem then becomes constantly cooling the fuel tank 24/7 - which is easier in cold areas where EVs have issues...
I think hydrogen cars may have a use case in cold countries where EVs are unpopular
Another problem is stationary storage, which also leaks, is also high volume and is more expensive than a big underground petrol tank, so service stations have to spend a ton of money to convert to hydrogen, which they don't want to do...
Natural gas engines are much more manageable...
Im am from Brasil... here there are developing a tecnology to transform álcool in hydrogen inside the car....
Search for Nissan Alcool/Hidrogen car
Regarding increasing engine efficiency, any improvements to a hydrogen-burning ICE are basically the same ones that you would apply to a gasoline-burning ICE.
I'm not saying there are no further improvements to be made, but engineers around the world have already been working on improving efficiency for decades already. Any further improvements are likely to be incremental.
Meanwhile, something interesting about storing pressurized hydrogen is that the leakage that we're all discussing isn't just due to imperfections in our storage apparatus. Rather, the hydrogen molecule is so small that it physically behaves differently from storage of other gases with larger molecules.
For example, there is a phenomenon called "hydrogen embrittlement" due to the pressurized hydrogen literally pushing its way into the atomic lattice of metal container walls. Yeah, under pressure, it actually pushes into the metal itself, and degrades its structural properties.
Likewise, hydrogen permeation through materials used for storage apparatus is a problem. Adequate sealing is such an issue for hydrogen, that (unlike storage of other gases/liquids) we basically just accept a certain loss rate due to permeation.
I just saw an announcement that Honda, Yamaha, Suzuki, and Kawasaki have all agreed to develop hydrogen burning motorcycles. Toyota is contributing to the effort. I'm thinking they're probably a bit further along in solving some of the challenges using hydrogen than what us laymen know.
Why does Noone bring up the fact that stores hydrogen is more or less a bomb
Yamaha makes probably the best outboard motor ever. Toyota makes the most dependable ICE. They are the pinnacle of engineering. You should contact them and let them know.
Hello Hello From Canada!!! Thank you for clearing up sooo many questions that I had about V8 and hydrogen in general. Have you seen any current or even heard of any new hydrogen generators in sizes that could be used for a residential application? Why countries don't encourage more development of alternative sources for producing cheaper hydrogen. I mean there are wind turbines, hydroelectric or even solar sources that could produce hydrogen for less cost than using coal, oil or natural gas. Do you think the energy content and poor combustion efficiency is why there are not many hydrogen burning projects or vehicle development? I can't wait to see what you planned for future episodes.
All I can have out of this video besides the great ability of Jason to communicate is, I need a V8.
I think condensed carbon capture systems will be what preserves the visceral feeling of driving a gas powered sports car in the future. I see hydrogen being best utilized with fuel cells and electric drive systems for vehicle applications.
Theoretically if we can get ahead of the "required energy vs energy production" curve the cost of hydrogen fuel should plummet as what is effectively spare electricity could be funneled into hydrogen production (energy costs in general would also plummet, so the amount of effort being made to get ahead of the curve is somewhat limited by profit margins)
Unfortunately, plaza physics say that the most you'll ever get it's about 29% efficient...
@@pilotavery yeah, burning hydrogen is a lot less effective than using it in a fuel cell
@@Ytinasniiable and burning it in a fuel cell is still much less effective than using electricity in a battery in the first place
@@pilotavery sometimes a little inefficiency is needed to reduce environmental impacts, modern batteries are a mess, require materials difficult to obtain, and need to be moved around the world; if the world would stop being petrified of nuclear power, that little extra inefficiency of using fuel cells instead of batteries, will be irrelevant because of how much extra power nuclear produces that the cost associated with hydrogen fuel production would be negligible.
But that of course relies on people understanding how nuclear power works and why it's literally the safest form of energy production available today.
@@Ytinasniiable but it doesn't reduce environmental impact... We know how bad batteries are. We also know how much gasoline is. Just that hydrogen is roughly the same as gasoline.
Thank you for the incredibly informative video. On May 29, 2023, Toyota took part in a 24-hour endurance race with a GR Corolla equipped with a hydrogen engine, successfully completing 358 laps covering approximately 1,633.5 km. Interestingly, they utilized liquid hydrogen maintained at a chilling temperature of -256°C.
I figured that using liquid hydrogen instead if highly compressed hydrogen gas might solve the range issue, but of course, you now have the difficulty having having to have a tank well enough insulated to maintain such incredibly low temperatures. As noted in the video, there simply is no long term storage of liquid hydrogen for the vehicle owners, and you can't park your car in your garage because venting flammable hydrogen gas into it is _probably_ not a great idea. And then you can imagine the safety issues if your tank ruptures in a collision and splashes liquid hydrogen all over the place. So, I think liquid hydrogen fuel is a non-starter for general consumers.
Metrics sucks for human measurements.
isnt liquid hydrogen under great pressure also to keep it liquid?
EEE-ghad !
@@blakespower Yes. Dont read comments, youll get cancer.
Another space advantage for the battery is, you don't need something the size of a V8 and a drive shaft to produce the power, you just need something about the size of the differential
Yep, and batteries have a lot more flexibility in shape, since they're not containing a super high pressure gas, which leads to the strong, cylindrical design of hydrogen tanks.
And you can restore energy back into the battery when braking, aka regenerative braking. Making the system even more efficient
And a first world power grid. Don't have that in CA
but the disadvantage of the battery is that its electric, and i would rather die them use a remote control car
@@zee-vc5wl There are noisy gasoline RC cars as well for you to avoid.
Fun comparison, but also realize the H2ICE has more room for optimization. Westport has an H2ICE with diesel pilot ignition that gets better than diesel fuel economy, so that get's you another 30% improvement in fuel economy over gasoline and a corresponding decrease in tank size.
Thanks for the illustration of how many problems would have to be resolved before it could be used.😮
Research about metal hydride, it can store hydrogen safely without high pressure necessary and store enough in 4 tanks about the size of a regular gas tank and theres a video by helmholtz zentrum and one by bob lazar where he made his own hydrate. Tho hydride is not dangerous it is illegal to sell (not illegal to make your own) and thous hydrogen cars haven't become available. Change the law.
Thank you for giving a visual comparison of the volume required. Every source I've seen that touts the energy efficiency of Hydrogen only talks about the energy density by weight, and ignores the space problem.
I like how Toyota still keeps fighting to make hydrogen popular after so many attempts.
Yep, all that money it wasted promoting hydrogen could have gone to making a great EV.
@@michaelriecher5632 why when everyone has done it and we know what the results will most likely be compared to something new that might not suck
Toyota bankrupt before 2030...
And with that determination and their expertise, they will do it eventually, against all the odds. Imagine where Hydrogen ICEs would be with the same amount of funds and time invested as EV have had.
Storing hydrogen in liquid ammonia is the way to go. We have been using Ammonia for decades as a refrigerant and it is also used to create fertilizer so the production and transport infrastructure is already in place.
The problem with Ammonia however is the energy needed to make it, definitely going to need wind and solar for that.
According to the available sources, hydrogen fuel with 70% EGR (exhaust gas recirculation) in a combustion engine is more efficient than gasoline due to several factors. One of the main reasons is that hydrogen has a higher energy content per unit of mass than gasoline, which means that it can produce more power per unit of fuel consumed
5
. Additionally, hydrogen combustion produces almost zero regulated emissions, making it a cleaner and more environmentally friendly fuel source
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The addition of EGR to the combustion process can further improve the efficiency of hydrogen fuel in a combustion engine. EGR is a technique used to reduce the amount of NOx emissions by recirculating a portion of the exhaust gas back into the engine's intake air. This reduces the combustion temperature and lowers the amount of oxygen available for combustion, resulting in lower NOx emissions and improved fuel efficiency
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Studies have shown that the addition of hydrogen and EGR to a gasoline engine can increase the brake thermal efficiency, which is a measure of the engine's ability to convert fuel energy into mechanical work, by up to 10% at 70% of full load
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. This means that the engine can produce more power with less fuel, resulting in improved fuel efficiency and reduced emissions.
In summary, hydrogen fuel with 70% EGR in a combustion engine is more efficient than gasoline due to the higher energy content of hydrogen and the addition of EGR, which reduces NOx emissions and improves fuel efficiency.
I remember well an article on the liquid hydrogen BMW back in the day. Another important point was that the engine can't use liquid, or even high pressure gas, so it needs to be increased to low pressure. The problem is, as anyone with basic science knowledge knows, decrease in pressure = decrease in temperature. We don't want to cool the already -250⁰c hydrogen. So it needs a super complex, multiple stage decompression system just to make it usable.
We are working on a fuel cell powered machine at my work. Huge potential.
I work with cryogenic liquids daily. We use them in our laser cutting system. We have a tank for liquid nitrogen that is 2 stories tall and almost never has to vent between jobs. The way it works is that it combines the cryo storage with extreme pressures to keep the liquid nitrogen at a warmer temp than the normal -192C needed at normal atmospheric pressure. Good cryo tanks are almost always huge, just for the sake of insulation... if they could find a way to make that smaller, it might work, but in my opinion it should still be used on fuel cell tech because holy crap can you imagine the range on that thing LOL.
My bad for not finishing the vid before spouting off.
They don't store it cryogenically.
They just keep it under immense pressure.
@@TauCu He did talk about one cryo storage tank, but it was unable to keep temps down without venting, likely due to its size
@@minotaurbison Oh, I mustn't have caught that.
@@TauCu don't worry, it was only a tiny segment, but it did explain well the problem with tiny cryo tanks, now if one has space to put in a 5' tall/long 2' round type like we use for gases we do not use often, results might have been better.
It is not just the 300 mile range that is important. It is also how long it takes to fill up or recharge for the next 300 miles.
How much does it cost to produce the hydrogen (and electrical energy in the batteries) for the car to achieve 300 miles?
Actually there are two solutions. A small amount if H2 could be continually drawn from the H2 tank and used in a fuel cell. The fuel cell would generate electricity to operate a refrigeration system to keep the H2 cold enough to remain a liquid. That would greatly reduce the loss of H2. Or, if external electricity is available, it could be used to operate the refrigeration system so there would be zero loss of H2 through evaporation.
The other solution would be to use nitrogen as an H2 carrier so that the H2 could be kept as a liquid at a convenient pressure and temperature, i.e., use NH3, which is ammonia, as the fuel. Of course the NH3 handling systems would need to be carefully designed to prevent its escape since no rational person would want to breathe NH3. Although a conventional gasoline could run on NH3, an engine designed for NH3 would run much better. That's because although NH3 has superb anti-knock properties, it is harder to ignite and burns much more slowly. A long stroke high compression engine, heavily turbocharged, running at perhaps 2000 rpm, could work very well.
NH3 produces lots of NOx and is very inefficient.
I just think it's amazing they can create a V8 engine that just emits water, regardless of range and other considerations. It is good that a manufacturer like Yamaha actually put money into this research as it could eventually lead to breakthroughs and give us other options instead of have EVs (as amazing as they are) being thrust upon us without choice. In the meantime, how about instead of 450hp we settle for half that, sacrifice some of the range (maybe 200 miles) and consider mixing with petrol and/or having a smaller auxiliary petrol tank. The main point is that we should continue to allow and actively encourage R&D in multiple areas and not just put all of our eggs into one basket.
yeah hopefully ice engines stay because we should not feel forced all because of the government wants us to go ev
Exactly. There seems to be an all or nothing mentality in the government policies.
@@TML34 lol.. and going on 3 years of nothing ..
And an EV doesn't emit anything, not even water. Yeah yeah, the emissions come from the power plant/source. We know. And the emissions from hydrogen engines ALSO come from the source, where they turn natural gas into hydrogen. So I'm not seeing any benefit.
@@jonclark1288 Actually EVs do emit water, in the production of their batteries. You should look up the devastating ecological impact of lithium mining.
9 minutes into this video you explained why hydrogen fuel cells make sense in space but not on Earth. Well done.
Love the presentation and comments. So agreement seems to be hydrogen fuel cells in a larger car for a greater range. A combustion engine burning hydrogen (HCE) seems less favoured. I'm not an engineer but want to ask this question. Suppose you have a station wagon or a panel van/SUV with 50 litres of water on board and a catalytic converter in use. Any HCE seem to use turbochargers to improve the efficiency of the H2 burn. Why not have both the O2 and H2 on board (in correct stochiometric relationship) and burn them together in the cylinder? This ignores potential for H2/O2 explosion and the H2 & O2 production rates being limiting. Would the kWh/kg mixed fuel be higher than with just H2 alone? Comments ? Any data from bench tests on a dynamometer? Just my $0.02.
By “catalytic converter” you mean an electrolyzer? Cause catalytic converter is the thing in your ICE exhaust
Why carry oxygen, there’s loads easy to access in the air.
For combustion, it is going to be either biofuels or synthetic fuels. There is no other way. I just hope that some petrol brands stay around making those fuels in the future, so aficionados can still power these amazing engines. Even if it is just a very small niche.
can you explain to me more of the biofuels
E85 for the win, you know why
@@jjp9595 why?
@@nastynick7125 Bio fuels is anything that burns and is made from living things. People usually think about plants, but whale oil would be a biofuel as well, for example.
But for cars, the most widespread today is ethanol (alcohol) because we know how to produce it. But there is also research in using algae to make a more petrol like fuel.
@@DrBernon whale oil, dishonored
I love how companies especially Japanese car companies aren't throwing the baby away with the bath water whith the internal combustion engine just yet. There still looking for ways to make them more efficient and better emissions.
They are going to be bankrupt
Hard to go bankrupt when their cars are still the most popular in the world. With three vehicles in the top 10, on global new-car sales. Until a company starts producing the quality that you get in a Toyota they aren’t going to go bankrupt and can continue to research in whichever direction they so choose!
@@user-221i Actually Tesla will probably go bankrupt before toyota ever will there not even profitable in any way there Actually loosing money they only reason there not bankrupt is because Elon Musk keeps pouring in his own money to keep the company afloat. If anything EV's will make car companies go bankrupt because even though there pushing them and biden is pushing them nobody's buying them.
I honestly think they can reduce NOx by running the engine leaner since combustion would be cooler and that would also generally increase overall efficiency and fuel efficiency.
Great video, I never looked up the energy density of liquid hydrogen, this changed my outlook on hydrogen.
The biggest problem I see with Hydrogen is safety issues..
You are driving a bomb, the extremely high pressure of hydrogen in the fuel tank. I Wouldn't like to be in an accident.. Ever. If Hydrogen leaks, it self ignites and you can't see the flame in daylight. The storage tank and downstream pipe work is known to be suspect to Hydrogen Cracking..
Just my thoughts, as I worked at an industrial plant that made Hydrogen..
I do love the visual representations of volume and how it adds up quickly. Nice work!
Research about metal hydride, it can store hydrogen safely without high pressure necessary and store enough in 4 tanks about the size of a regular gas tank and theres a video by helmholtz zentrum and one by bob lazar where he made his own hydrate. Tho hydride is not dangerous it is illegal to sell (not illegal to make your own) and thous hydrogen cars haven't become available. Change the law.
Yes as the V8 lover those 21 buckets are good enough to weep away the tears ofcourse practicality alone makes sense great demonstration 👍
6:50 The Renault Espace F1 springs most immediately to mind. Then there are the various Counsilier/Mosler "Sports Vans," and the GMC Hurricane and Tornado.
To be certain, those do represent the exceptions that prove the rule.
One of the biggest fallacies of the "zero emissions" claim of a hydrogen powered internal combustion engine is that it totally ignores the fact that NOx will still be produced. NOx is a major component of smog and precursor of acid rain. Only claiming zero emissions for carbon is disingenuous. You need to look at the entire story.
I think the point to use ICE for H2 was to prevent the situation in the full cell that there is not enough noble metals for the electrodes. take into account that the efficiency of burning H2 should be much higher than that of liquid fuels because of no sooting, unburnt sprays, etc... and also due to the very high flame temperature, H2 can be burnt in super lean conditions. that means one can heat air for propulsion just like turbofans.
Burning super lean can create NOx emissions (it does with gasoline too)
Hydrogen doesn’t contain enough energy per unit volume to make this work.
@@richardggeorge - “Burning super lean can create NOx emissions”
In 2022, Arrington Performance showed an H2 1964 Ford Falcon Sprint at 2022 SEMA in Vegas. It reduced NOx with a lean H2 mixture injected with H2O (Ford has a patent.) It was done with a Ford 5.0 Coyote V8 crate engine.
This is not the only demonstrated example.
In 2018, the production dual fuel Mazda RX-8 achieved lower NOx emissions by running a lean H2.
Wherever you are getting your H2 information about is over 1/2 decade old.
Too dangerous to carry a (Hydrogen Bomb) in your car; gas powered Vs Burst into flames when in crashes, just imagine what can happen with a hPd Vehicle...
I happen to work with some high surface alumina powders and other stuff like it.
I was told one application for those white powders was storing hydrogen in zeolites. It isn't bonded to any metals in there but rather absorbed into the tiny pores of the material.
Desorption happens as pressure drops so it lets you store large amounts of H2 gas at lower pressure. I'm not sure of the exact numbers but apparently they use 100 bar or something in that range.
I don't know how much this tech was developed since i last heard it or how feasible it is sadly. Did you happen to stumble upon references to it in your research?
That pressure is 1/7 the pressure of the tanks he showed. I fail to see how putting other physical stuff in the tank without chemical bonding, helps rather than hurts. Sounds like it's just taking up space.
Yes.. do not be RESTRICTED on SINGLE solution.. GO to innovate/improve HYDROGEN and possible NEW TECH. ❤❤❤
Both the battery and the hydrogen required energy to reach it's state of storage to be used in a vehicle. Petrochemicals are energy dense, hence why we use it them in the manner we do. However, in order to move toward a more eco-friendly alternative, an analysis in conjunction with what was presented in this video comparing ways how energy gets into the states of storage, e.g. a battery or a tank of hydrogen, is necessary. All things have trade offs. Do we, consumers at large, continue to consume in our current manner?
I think for strength, hydrogen tanks should always be cylinders or spheres. It's probably a bad idea to pressurize rectangular prisms to 10k psi lol
Not only for strength but for manufacturing and quality control.
I mean the fastest way to make a cylinder is to pressurize a prism
For a pressure vessel as shown in the video its a simple strength check for hoop and longitudinal stresses. You could make the pressure vessel into different shapes, but those would require a more detail analysis.
Well duh but it wouldn’t matter since hydrogen is a very light gas. Literally the lightest and least dense gas known to man.
@@AidanS99 The issue is the astronomical pressure required to hold an appreciable amount of hydrogen. The weight of hydrogen has almost nothing to do with the strength requirements of The containers.
The basic of engineering is to solve a problem,and this is what we engineers do btw..great knowledge
I just love how he insists on displaying a five gallon bucket with a US flag on it, then proceeds to use metric like a proper engineer for most of his calculations. I hate it when I have to revise an old calculation at work that was done in imperial units, I end up having convert to SI then do my calculations so the next engineer doesn't have to go through pain!
@@anydaynow01 for me (non US), it's pretty difficult trying to map in my head all the imperial units in real time. I more or less remember the exchange, but doing the math all the time is complicated.
I have been educating the ignorant public for a few decades that there is nothing that compares or even comes close to the energy density of gasoline/diesel as a fuel source along with the affordability, safety and reliability of it. It will get you there, back, and beyond. That is why we have been using it for over a century now.
The optimum way to store and use hydrogen is to combine it with another material, such as carbon. It can then be stored at atmospheric pressure and temperature with none of the problems.
Nobody ever talks about the energy needed to separate out the hydrogen in the first place. A combustion engine or a fuel cell is only part of the story. The energy for extraction normally comes from fossil fuels.
Have to give Credits due to YAMAHA Motor for helping to developed so many World Class engines for many other car manufacturers in the world over the decades ... 🌷🌿🌏💜🕊🇯🇵
Personally I prefer the octahedron. Maybe a torus such as a TOKAMAC! Or perhaps even a Klein bottle.
Hmmm... Yes, I think a Klein bottle wold be the perfect vessel to store all this -250C H2 at 25,000 atmospheres.
And the driver could zoom around all day on a highway built as a Mobius strip.
I appreciate you compiling all this information, I'll share this at the bar tonight to make myself look smart!
Thank you!
It's $36/kg for hydrogen now. I had a Mirai for 3 yrs. Great car. Infrastructure needs a lot of work, but that pricing is killing the tech.
The goal of 300 miles per “fill up” may not be necessarily true. An EV may have the range but then there is the problems associated with charging times.
A hydrogen ICE range can be 150 miles. Yes, you would need to fill up more often. But the fueling time is mere minutes.
As an internet/keyboard/armchair scientist, engineer, doctor, lawyer, WWII veteran and Nobel Peace Prize winner I just watched a video pretty much made me an expert on this stuff. I think they figured this problem out by making a three cylinder 1.6 liter hydrogen engine. Dramatically less powerful but it solves the range issue. I must admit I'm sure they made it hybrid to further reduce the tank size. The video said it did in fact have a smaller battery which is what lead me to this conclusion. They made a big V8 version specifically for the guys who couldn't care less about the range. They like noise and power even if it only lasts four minutes. Range be damned!
Great video, I look forward to all your uploads. Have a great day
Thanks to your comment here, I didnt need to watch that video, a bit tedious.
Thank you, keep commenting.
Yep for the Electric Truck lovers they call that a FORD LIGHTNING
Those guys probably get complaints from their wives for only lasting 4 minutes😂
A lot of the issues you mention were faced, to a much lesser degree, with CNG powered vehicles. The range is reduced compared to gasoline, and the pressure in the tank is about 3600 PSI, but with hydrogen, it's about 3x as difficult.
CNG cars also have a petrol tank so having a lower range on the CNG isn't even as much of an issue compared to hydrogen since you can always switch over to petrol when you need the added range
@@bluemountain4181 huh? Uh no? No they don't..
@@reykennedy5716 he means those that have been converted. You can't start (at least easily) a converted CNG car unless you use the original fuel for a bit and then change into gas.
CNG is fossil fuel with emissions
@@slazerlombardi .... What? You can definitely start a cng converted vehicle on cng.
Can this problem be solved by utilizing on board hydrogen generators and smaller tanks? And again, utilizing a hybrid drive system... let's not forget that the actual process of creating/extracting hydrogen from water is quite easy and doesn't take much power. You would have all the power you need by tapping the the battery from a hybrid system.
We can't have people filling their cars are up with water, that just upsets too many people...
You can literally build a hydrogen generator from parts from home depot, it's really not even that complicated. It's only a matter of time before we build our own and say eff you.
Presumably a vehicle with an H2 combustion engine would use liquified, not gaseous hydrogen, which eliminates the storage volume problem. Presumably the boil-off problem can be solved.
The boil-off problem isn't easily solved. Liquid hydrogen is a very extreme fuel to be running in a consumer car - it's difficult to deal with in so many ways.
The advantage of BEVs: we already have an energy distribution infrastructure that can get electricity anywhere we want. We don't have a supply chain and distribution network for H2. Unless Toyota is also willing to invest heavily in H2 distribution, I just don't see a point in H2 powered transportation outside of certain use cases (mostly cargo ships).
Uh no we don’t. Not if it gets scaled up like the tree huggers want.
@@MikeR65 The US already did that bevore tho when soyboys complained that it was too warm and they needed AC in every building.
Nope. The infrastructure isn't developed. This is evident in the summer season when brownouts happen.
The US also needs to invest in better public transport infrastructure, of course we can't electrify every car, and we shouldn't either. Your car might be able to run on fairy farts, but it's still gonna need to replace tyres who are gonna need to be disposed of (put in a big pile and oops it's on fire).
@@MikeR65 , we really do (US). Grids are rated by peak demand. You can simply shift off most EV charging to off peak hours and you're good. If you want peak expansion you're only looking at roughly a 25-30% increase in grid peak expansion (according to various grid operators), which isn't that big of a deal. People run away with things like California telling people not to charge their EVs during peak hours... you often see people drop the fact that it only applied to peak hours, and that it has nothing to do with EVs and more to do with their megadrought conditions and reliance on hydropower, lol.
I have a feeling that the engineers at Toyota and Yamaha know what they are doing. Way too much money involved to NOT know what they are doing.
Marketing for investment is what they are doing
@@123clickit Good point
Whatever you think they are doing, they are not getting round basic physics. This is either R&D gone mad, or it's driven by hatred of EVs - or there's some sort of complex (or mad) PR thing going on here. Who knows. But one thing we definitely DO know is that hydrogen fueled cars are NOT the answer.
Yeah, a lost war against EV
@@paulhaynes8045 Not so sure, Hydrogen is one of the few fuels that reverts back to what it came from, water. Water can be turned into H fuel with solar powered systems. The big problem is having enough solar energy generated power to make the H gas in large quantities.
This video is a textbook example of how a completely scientific conversation can easily be appropriated to carry a certain agenda. The only two things I could take out from this video was that this person doesn't like hydrogen fueled cars and that he only sees the status quo. I'm pretty sure that the engineers of Toyota know all this and are working on it. Well, I'd like to see how this video maker evaluates the efficiency and sustainability of EVs, which has come under serious doubt in only a couple of years while having no possible solution for the foreseeable future.
turbo=higher mechanical efficiency, smaller displacement=higher mpg, higher fuel pressure=less space, etc. i’m sure it would fit under/behind some rear seats or behind front seats in a 2 seater. a kg of hydrogen is expensive now, but so was everything before it was widely available. higher quantity of hydrogen sold means a lower cost becomes viable, only exponentially as the cars become more popular
Why not just use it is a fuel cell then?
correct me if i am wrong but mirai is a fcev ( fuel cell electric vehicle ) is it right to compare it with the new technology yamaha / yamaha is providing? The internal combustion engine they created may have different stats... all though i agree technology is not ready to accept hydrogen as fuel for ICE, i believe toyota with yamaha just made a big step for everyone with their new technology!
Thank you! You're the only person I've seen pick up on that. Hydrogen fuel cells are very different to hydrogen injection.
He also says it's carbon free which is fine, but doesn't mention the NOx emissions which might be a factor for road use.
JCB are making hydrogen powered engines for their machines and have successfully retrofitting one to a lorry. Proving that the concept can work in that setting. The diesel cylinder heads and combustion chambers do make it's adaption for diesel -style engines easier
Something seems off with his calculation. Too lazy to check where he is wrong. The Mirai is able to get 1000km from one filling. So, there is that.
He's only using the Mirai as a reference for the hydrogen storage(quantity, size etc), which isn't any different from an hydrogen fuel cell to hydrogen combustion engine.
@@PhilippBlum the highest range Mirai has a range of 402 miles, which is 646.956 km. I don't know where y'all get that 1000 km figure.
@@HCkev Search it.
If I were to buy a car today to replace my 22mpg SUV, I think it would be a plug-in hybrid. I get to drive around town mostly on the energy I charged in my garage, but I can still go 1000 miles on a road trip if I want to. It just needs to fit 2 car seats and 4 suitcases plus a storage bubble on the roof and still get 40mpg 😂.
there are electric cars that charge in 20 minutes
I sold my Tesla and bought a XC90 PHEV. I’m much happier with having a vehicle with zero compromises. I can go weeks without using the ICE and can travel with no range or charging concerns.
@@coryw.9086 Smart move.
@@user-uw3fi2zg4t Fast charging is the enemy of having long-lasting batteries.
@@ajstevens1652 it depends on the chemistry but anyway batteries prices will be way lower than they are by the time you will need a replacement if you ever do
Yeah, so it's a problem on a sports car. But sports cars are often 2 seaters. You could design one around the tank.
Seems like the problem gets easier as you move up to larger vehicles too. Could see this engine going in a full size pickup, for instance.
One question that has been on my mind recently. I would like to know if this is possible. Instead of the engine being the main stay in Hybrid vehicles, why couldn't the process be reversed, so that a tiny engine could be used to keep the batteries charged while a tri motor would be driving the wheels?
This is very valuable insight. However, keep in mind that hydrogen refueling takes a fraction of the time that recharging an EV would take. 50 miles might not that bad of a range if you can refuel in a matter of seconds, adding only a few minutes to a long trip. For shorter trips, it's not an issue at all, especially considering that the average car trip is less than 10 miles.
Plus if they just make it 100-150 miles, its not a problem as long there is enough refueling infrastructure
@@paroxysm6437 Hundreds of miles of rush hour traffic? What kind of hell hole do you live in? :D
@@paroxysm6437 actually it rarely takes 30 minutes or less. The high speed chargers are rare and mainly in the cesspool big cities. Also let's not ignore the fact the majority of electricity is still powered by natural gas and coal. Then you lose energy as it's transferred across lines and stored. Its a ludicrous concept when we have synthetic fuels coming out, with super efficient engines that produces way less emissions than natural gas and coal.
@@paroxysm6437 Not in the UK or across the EU have that type of infrastructer. The USA is not the only country that you should use as an example. Look at the continent of Africa, that hasn't got hardly any stations that has recharging units.
EV (lithium ion batteries / tesla) are more harmful to the eco system than diesels. And they are hideous polluters of the atmosphere.
We have many years to go before we will have anything that can be called efficient and not harmful.
@@paroxysm6437 I've worked in the IT industry for over 25 years. I'm a technician, so that means installing a variety gear. And of course I'm a bit of a nerd when it comes to tech. The thing I do not like about the lithium ion battery, is that it can't be recycled. By that, I mean the cobalt, lithium, manganese and graphite can not be safely extracted when the battery comes to its end of life usage. The same technology is used in a variety of productes. The biggest user is mobile phones. Of which, over 18 billion have been made. And not 1 battery has been recycled safely, in a cost effective manner. That's not to say that some haven't been recycled, but it's to expensive and dangerous to do at this moment and time. And in the end, it's going into the ground and as sure as eggs is eggs. They will end up polluting the area where they will eventually be buried in. Recent past history of waste in general has not been good. At least here UK it hasn't. I can't comment what it is like the US.
A fuel cell is probably the way to go for hydrogen powered cars. There may be some applications for hydrogen combustion technology. Perhaps with some smaller 2, 3 or 4 cylinder engines. There are lots of smaller type vehicles with small engines less than 2 liters that you should be able to fit at least four five gallon buckets in and have some trunk space left for a 300 mile range.
Yep! 👍🏼
By keeping H2 internal combustion on the table, the pressure is kept on fuel cells to come down in price, and fuel cell keep pressure on H2 internal combustion to become more efficient.
Honestly, this is the right way to go about it.
Fuel cells cost alot
This assumes that fuel cells can be developed which are cheap and can last +200 000 miles. They must also be scalable to millions of vehicles. Currently it's not going to work and it's unknown whether it will be possible in the future.
@@wombatillo - “assumes fuel cells can be developed which are cheap”
car fuel cells existed in production for decades, use rare earth elements already produced for ICE catalytic converters, so the costs will not differ greatly once production ramps up & and existing supply lines shift to new production used
“last +200 000 miles”
they typically last 12 years - 15 years
“scalable to millions of vehicles”
The rare earths required for catalytic converters can be used for fuel cells, so no real issue with element availability, should scale since ICE scales for millions
“currently it’s not going to work”
It has been working, for decades
“unknown if will be possible in the future”
If not, we start with H2 ICE.
This has been working, for decades, too.
Yeah but then you're just driving electric with an extra and wasteful step... Batteries are more energy efficient than hydrogen fuel cells.
Not to mention you can't for instance create Hydrogen at home for no cost and then put it in your tank, but I can get energy via solar panels on my roof and put it on my battery via a wallbox and it costs me nothing....
Your analysis is technically well done for the current stage of this engineering, but lacks of the strategy development that this industry will take. (I am particularly pointing out on what your video cover/ title shows...)
H2 engines will never be economical other than as a possible means of energy storage, but that energy would have to come from solar or hydro...
It will never beat the already concentrated energy of fossil fuels.
Great information!!
Can you do a video about big brakes? I've seen a few videos where they talk about pad size, friction, and pressure but no one talks about the change in disc diameter and how that affects torque or leverage. So I was wondering if you could do a video explaining this. 🤔
A lot of the benefit is simply that bigger brakes are a bigger heatsink and don't overheat as easily.
I watched the boys on Top Gear put bigger brakes (and rims to fit) on a car... significant loss of wheel horsepower. They had no way of measuring but I imagine increased gyroscopic effect on steering, not to mention increased unsprung mass
Driving 4 Answers did a video on that. (Disclaimer: It is still on my watch later list)
@@mennovanlavieren3885 in his video he doesn't talk about disc diameter and leverage.
I was just thinking about a big brake kit, but then wondered about the added stress it would cause on the spindle and strut tower.
And what about the master cylinder, brake booster, and brake lines, are they under more or less pressure because of increased pad and rotor surface, and larger/more caliper pistons? Are they inadequate to gain much use from larger brakes to decrease stopping distance, and the only gain is increased heat sink so there’s less brake fade?
Yeah the main problem here is combustion engine efficiency, or lack thereof. Electric motors are where it's at battery technology just hasn't quite caught up with the energy density of gasoline yet.
Batteries will likely never catch up to the storage density of gasoline or diesel but it doesn't need to because an EV is 85-90% efficient compared to internal combustion engine cars which are 17-21% efficient.
@@heathwirt8919 Yeah this is true and I didn't think of that!
Key word is yet. I hear tales all the time about how Lithium has the most energy density of the reactive metals -- that chemical batteries today are about as good as they'll get. Then you hear tales of the vaporware solid state batteries that have some insane amount of storage capacity. My only hope is that everybody who's ever said "this is as good as it's going to get" has been proven wrong, so hopefully that trend will continue with batteries.
See this very channels:
"No, Synthetic Fuels Won't Replace Electric Cars"
316,014 views Jun 2, 2021
Expect to waste 80% to 90% of the source energy compared to directly using that source energy in an EV - making driving your eFuel car almost 10 times more expensive.
And now you know why nobody but Porsche (pretends to) work(s) on that.
@@bvoyelr Yeah it'll probably take 10 to 20 years but I'm sure with the push for EV's and electric everything someone will come out with a better battery at some point, there's just way too much to gain financially for somebody to not figure it out!
Whatever company figures out the energy density problem with batteries is going to be disgustingly rich!
Could room temperature super conductors be a cheap and practicable solution to storing liquid hydrogen through magnetic cooling effect? 🤔
I remember reading a research paper that was done in the 50s that basically said the same thing. Hydrogen...is not...a practical...fuel source...for consumers. Full stop.
Jason: this was a really informative an easy-to-follow overview. The storage volume numbers don’t lie. I do wonder if your efficiency stats might be off? JCB are getting close to equivalent run times on their heavy equipment with similar H2 storage volumes (at 5000psi, I think)… so real-world examples seem to disprove your conclusions here?
I’d just like to get 500 miles on one gallon of fuel
JCB redesigned a lot of it's engine around hydrogen combustion so I'm sure they're getting higher efficiencies. It's kind of unfair for Jason to use this "port" proof of concept as a benchmark for what's possible imo.
Boy it's totally exhausting it's easier to give up. hope his maths are in order
@@murffly JCB completely neglected to address the much harder problem of hydrogen production and supply. It absolutely must be green. Unfortunately for JCB that is an order of magnitudes harder nut to crack and it will never be done very cheaply.
@@rogerphelps9939 Why would they address a problem which has nothing to do with their expertise? What do you propose as a better solution? Everything battery powered?