Cool video! I like to get down with DSMX satellites because they only take 3.3v as opposed to the 5v that the FlySky and Frsky suck up! Every little volt counts!
Good point as the nominal voltage difference needs to be 2 or more volts for the BEC to function properly at 5 volts so as the battery sags below 7 volts the differential comes more into play leading to a voltage drop below 5 volts needed. However, Albert Kim's solution is sheer genius as it takes a hefty load off of the internal regulator.
I remember I had this problem with a home-built quad. I used a racerstar 4-in-1 esc that had a 1 amp BEC and i powered the omnibus with that, plus I had my camera/vtx wired to the omnibus. The camera would cut out almost immediately and the FC would reboot. The camera i was using was an Eachine EF01 which could not run on 2S and needed max 5v. I finally worked around it by wiring the ESC and flight controller in series (I think?), and then using the5v BEC on the ESC to power my VTX/cam. Then I got about 10 minutes of flight time on it, and lost the quad in a ditch.
Loved the video Albert, I learned tons and you are one of very few people that have shed light on this subject. I have 2 quads that flip of death and have been pulling my hair out, a babyhawk and a teeny1s. I tried an XT30 and a super lipo (broke a great 80c 2s down to 1s for the test) but it still flipped like before, only on full throttle after very low throttle (perhaps 0 throttle but I can't say for sure) Looking a bit further into it, I found something else. Apparently some ESCs have problems coming back from a 0 throttle situation, in which some motors react faster and the quad flips before all motors get to correct spin. Apparently this was a thing with walkera 250 and a guy explains how to correct it by setting it to never go 0 throttle. Funnily, I don't remember ever having one of these flips of death in air mode, so it seems to make sense. Do you know anything about this problem or can perhaps shed some more light on this type of flip of death? Thanks!
I had the same brownout issue with an omnibus F4 FC on my 5" build. I removed the onboard Bec and added a pololu which had much better current handling.
Great fix. Thanks for posting this. Have you looked into the polulu voltage regulator? Maybe help with voltage sags as well as voltage regulation down to 5V.
I have been doing this exact thing for quite a long time. I use micro switching voltage regulators from Pololu. I didn't catch if the one you're using is a linear or switching regulator. No mention of this in the item description either. The switching regulators will require less voltage to make the 5v out and will consume less power and run cooler than a linear regulator. I also use a version that is a step up / step down regulator so even if the voltage drops to 5v input it can still deliver the power at a lower mah. It's Pololu item S7V7F5. Just my two cents worth. Thanks for the video.
Fantastic! Great video, super timely and clear enough I could even follow. Now, you know I am no authority, so I'm only reporting what I saw on our friend Nick's recent video. He fixed a FOD problem by going into Blheli suite and turning down the motor start-up power from .25 to .031 (the min. value). A comment suggested that turning down motor timing (also Blheli) to med-low also worked for some. Advantage is it's easier to just change the software, but the question is are you pushing the problem to something else? Thanks (to both of you) for addressing this and sharing your knowledge.
Yes, I did see that. Obviously worth a try and costs nothing. I think however more flips of death are caused by wrong connector or wrong battery. This is probably more common IMHO.
If you build light and are running a low mw VTX, rather than adding switching voltage regulators that create additional RF noise and subsequent unknown harmonics you can also go the opposite way by using the extra weight of the voltage regulator, heat shrink, and wiring added towards the weight of an additional light weight micro 1S battery instead where existing wiring to the VTX can usually be eliminated as well by mounting the additional battery coupled to the Cam/VTX mounted in foam. I've seen builds where just by eliminating the cam's hard mount system and unneeded wire can save enough weight to end up lighter while adding a separate cam/VTX battery. BUT DON"T PLUG A 1S BATTERY INTO AN EACHINE CAMERA VTX AS THE POLARITY IS REVERSED AND YOU WILL CREATE MAGIC SMOKE AND FRY IT!
Wouldn't it better to change out the fc regulator with a step up step down regulator? So it won't cut out the 5v even when the lipo sags under 5v right?
I didn't say it would be easier, just wanted to point out if that isn't the right thing to do theoretically? Like why haven't fc manufacturers thought about this yet? Your solution is great but it isn't actually a solution, you could still have a brownout if your lipo would sag bad, right?
I thinck my drone is having a brownout issue but I'm not sure... I was flying an s4 5in build with a 6s lipo... I punched the throttle and at the peak my ESC reset (I could hear it though the camera) and my drone fell out of the sky. Im not sure if this is a brownout issue or something els.
Subscribed ;) What are possible reasons for copter restarts (the esc starting sounds)? My setup is racestar 10a 4 in1 and the betaflight f4 with flysky receiver you used in a build. With XT30 and large battery. It is restarting while flying and also on the ground.
Great video. I have a Leader 120 that I am having serious flips of death issues. I have changed to XT30 with brand new 7.4v Tattu 75c batteries, tried changing idle speed, nothing helps. I still have the flips of death. Haven't had a chance to fly with goggles yet to see if camera cuts out because I am too scared that it will flip out on me. Would the BEC on the camera work on this model do you think? Any suggestions you have would be greatly appreciated. I just finished watching AndyRC's vid on prop size. But like he said, he likes the power these props give it, as do I.
There seems to be a lot of variation in what might be the root cause of the flips of death. I'm thinking something is up with these motors. I'm still investigating, but a lot of testing will need to be done to offer any help to anybody. The problem is finding the time to do all this testing.
Hey Albert, just wanted to let you know what I have done with this drone. I tried the GemFan 3025 props cut down a bit, like AndyRC did. Still flips. I then put a 5v BEC in it to isolate the camera, so that the board wasn't powering the camera anymore, still flipped. I tried 3.7, 6.5, 8.5 and 10 on idle speeds, flipped all of them. I did notice that I could almost make it flip every time when I flipped to the right. It wouldn't flip out when you did a soft quiet flip, just when you did a fast, more throttle flip. To the right happened almost everytime, but then front flips made it go nuts once in a while too!!. Would you have ANY other suggestions as to what to try?? I am so disappointed in this quad, it is so nice to fly when it isn't flipping out. I guess I could try the new version of Betaflight, but I am paranoid that with this lemon it would be even worse!! But, then again, how worse can it get, because I don't trust it to fly FPV now!!
So on my Kingkong110 I installed a vtx03 and runcam micro, now when I use 200 MW I get a flip of deaths on high throttle but no video break up. Does this mean voltage regulator will help or switching from jst to xt30 will help ? Thank you so much for this video btw
I'm not sure how you have things wired, but I'm assuming the VTX03 and RunCam Micro are both powered off the onboard BEC. When you increase to 200mW, the power draw also increases and puts more strain on the BEC. I think you should power the FPV stuff off a separate BEC like a Pololu or the part I have listed in this video. Seems the FC is resetting.
Thanks for this Albert! If I understand correctly, you mention two separate issues: voltage sags from the battery, and having a BEC that can't provide enough current for all the components. I would assume that 3S batteries are much less susceptible to the voltage sag issue than 2S (assuming similar quality batteries) - is that true? For providing current, what kind of safety margin do you think is good? I'm planning a 2" build that will draw up to 800mA* for just the RX, VTX, and camera, and I'm planning to use an FC with a 1.5A BEC. This seems like a lot of headroom. Presumably the FC itself doesn't draw that much current? Thanks! * FrSky XSR (100mA), Micro Swift 2 (130mA), Eachine VTX03 (360mA @ 25mW, 570mA @ 200mW), and Omnibus F3 Nano V2 FC (1.5A BEC).
Okay, so this is not really related to this video, but at least it is related to power. I'm trying to keep my micro brushless quads as light as possible, and therefore trying to use JST connectors instead of the heaver XT30. I've noticed that the guage of the battery wires on my 2S batteries varies from as large as 18awg to as small as 24awg. At what point does the JST connector become the bottleneck? Put another way what guage wire best matches the current throughput of the JST connector? Then, if I do make the leap to the XT30, what guage wire should be used for that connector?
So I decided not to be so lazy and found on Wikipedia that the jst rcy connector handles 3 amps and varies between 22 to 28 awg. I infer from this that there would be no benefit to using anything bigger than 22awg for the connection to the fc. Is that accurate?
Albert Kim Thanks! That helps. I fly mostly in my backyard where the tree canopy prevents flying higher than 15-20 feet and the longest straightaway is about 20-25 yds, so my 90GT (1103) works nicely, and won't do much damage if it hits anything (like me for example). I already upgraded to a JST connection, but I think I'll also upgrade to 20awg for the connection to the fc. Thanks again for the quick response.
I have a 117mm with 1105 8500kv I'm getting brownouts at full punch :( would you say the best/easy would be upgrade my jst to XT30? Thanks for you time love you videos I've learned so much have a great 4th I'm going to rip so batteries at 70% stick :*(
Micro F3 FC 4 in 1 BLLheli_S 10A AIO ESC Input voltage 2s-3s only 5v/1.5A switching power? does that help :) I'm getting some XT30's tomorrow after work I'll be trying that first see is that helps.
+GG Weslie 2.5 inch prop? 3s lipo? You might be taxing the ESCs. You can also try adding a separate bec like I did ... the 1.5amp rating might be optimistic
you missed an issue of desyncs causing flips. Ive had this happen on two different motors. there were no shorts that I could detect. the coils were all intact. one motor did it fresh out of the box. I had no solution other than replace the motor. I call them phantom shorts.
Could help I think. Larger capacitors will act as a current source in the short term so yes, they can help with brownouts. Many of these micros are a bit noisy on the video feed currently, so a cap is a good idea in many cases, anyway. I've seen at least one commenter somewhere report that they fitted a used (from 5" quad's old esc) capacitor (prob. about a 220uF 25v) to their micro 2" 2S build, and all their brownout issues were gone/fixed. The 3S builds are not so problematic (susceptible to voltage sag issues) because of the higher voltage buffer. The problem is mostly 2S systems.
ive got a 2 inch quad and its a rocket on 3s but on 2s it barely lifts off the ground and the battery gets crazy hot. is there anything that im missing here?? my 2s battery is 70c so i dont think it should have too much trouble supplying the amps. if anyone has any ideas hmu :)
Great video Albert. I am sure to take this knowledge forward, but...I had something mysterious happen the other day and I wonder if you have an idea why. The build is a 4s 3in running f4 v3 , bl 20ax4 caddex turtle and rs1306 motors. no issue on punch out or flips, but i took it up high and started to descend fast into the prop wash, after a few slow oscillations it went into an unrecoverable death role. any ideas why? Thanks
Hmmm, it could be a lot of different things. I'm not sure where to start with just this information. I remember helping someone else with a similar issue and after about a month of back and forth, we couldn't figure it out.
@@AlbertKimTV Thanks, I am going to replace motors, change baseline throttle, and increase idle motor speed. here's a vid if anyone else has an idea. th-cam.com/video/zIFSNqD2gko/w-d-xo.html
Cool video! I like to get down with DSMX satellites because they only take 3.3v as opposed to the 5v that the FlySky and Frsky suck up! Every little volt counts!
Good point as the nominal voltage difference needs to be 2 or more volts for the BEC to function properly at 5 volts so as the battery sags below 7 volts the differential comes more into play leading to a voltage drop below 5 volts needed. However, Albert Kim's solution is sheer genius as it takes a hefty load off of the internal regulator.
Great work man this really helps! Man you blew up, I remember subscribing when you only had 1k.
Keep it up man! :D
I remember I had this problem with a home-built quad. I used a racerstar 4-in-1 esc that had a 1 amp BEC and i powered the omnibus with that, plus I had my camera/vtx wired to the omnibus. The camera would cut out almost immediately and the FC would reboot. The camera i was using was an Eachine EF01 which could not run on 2S and needed max 5v. I finally worked around it by wiring the ESC and flight controller in series (I think?), and then using the5v BEC on the ESC to power my VTX/cam. Then I got about 10 minutes of flight time on it, and lost the quad in a ditch.
What a great time to be in the hobby with info and vids like to help us out! Kudos for an excellent vid and explanations/solutions!
Loved the video Albert, I learned tons and you are one of very few people that have shed light on this subject. I have 2 quads that flip of death and have been pulling my hair out, a babyhawk and a teeny1s.
I tried an XT30 and a super lipo (broke a great 80c 2s down to 1s for the test) but it still flipped like before, only on full throttle after very low throttle (perhaps 0 throttle but I can't say for sure)
Looking a bit further into it, I found something else. Apparently some ESCs have problems coming back from a 0 throttle situation, in which some motors react faster and the quad flips before all motors get to correct spin. Apparently this was a thing with walkera 250 and a guy explains how to correct it by setting it to never go 0 throttle. Funnily, I don't remember ever having one of these flips of death in air mode, so it seems to make sense.
Do you know anything about this problem or can perhaps shed some more light on this type of flip of death?
Thanks!
+David Anthony Yeah if your min throttle is too low, the motors will stop and if only one stops, it does the FOD
Thanks a lot!
Good vid man, I like that frame! Looking forward to your review.
I had the same brownout issue with an omnibus F4 FC on my 5" build. I removed the onboard Bec and added a pololu which had much better current handling.
Fantastic video!! I'll have to try out the additional 5V regulator on my Aurora 90. Fingers crossed.
Great fix. Thanks for posting this. Have you looked into the polulu voltage regulator? Maybe help with voltage sags as well as voltage regulation down to 5V.
I have been doing this exact thing for quite a long time. I use micro switching voltage regulators from Pololu. I didn't catch if the one you're using is a linear or switching regulator. No mention of this in the item description either. The switching regulators will require less voltage to make the 5v out and will consume less power and run cooler than a linear regulator. I also use a version that is a step up / step down regulator so even if the voltage drops to 5v input it can still deliver the power at a lower mah. It's Pololu item S7V7F5. Just my two cents worth. Thanks for the video.
+Ground Control RC I don't think that one can handle 3S however
Albert Kim no but there are other models that can. thanks.
Here you go: Pololu 5V Step-Up/Step-Down Voltage Regulator S9V11F5
Fantastic! Great video, super timely and clear enough I could even follow. Now, you know I am no authority, so I'm only reporting what I saw on our friend Nick's recent video. He fixed a FOD problem by going into Blheli suite and turning down the motor start-up power from .25 to .031 (the min. value). A comment suggested that turning down motor timing (also Blheli) to med-low also worked for some. Advantage is it's easier to just change the software, but the question is are you pushing the problem to something else? Thanks (to both of you) for addressing this and sharing your knowledge.
Yes, I did see that. Obviously worth a try and costs nothing. I think however more flips of death are caused by wrong connector or wrong battery. This is probably more common IMHO.
Yep, and makes more sense to have the explanation as to how the change fixes it. thanks.
I'm having that problem with my 5 inch. I'm using the F4 pro and seen others with the FOD issue as well.
If you build light and are running a low mw VTX, rather than adding switching voltage regulators that create additional RF noise and subsequent unknown harmonics you can also go the opposite way by using the extra weight of the voltage regulator, heat shrink, and wiring added towards the weight of an additional light weight micro 1S battery instead where existing wiring to the VTX can usually be eliminated as well by mounting the additional battery coupled to the Cam/VTX mounted in foam. I've seen builds where just by eliminating the cam's hard mount system and unneeded wire can save enough weight to end up lighter while adding a separate cam/VTX battery. BUT DON"T PLUG A 1S BATTERY INTO AN EACHINE CAMERA VTX AS THE POLARITY IS REVERSED AND YOU WILL CREATE MAGIC SMOKE AND FRY IT!
Thz , broke the frame on the A100 the other day.
Can the board reset from high C rating bat? thx great video
Wouldn't it better to change out the fc regulator with a step up step down regulator? So it won't cut out the 5v even when the lipo sags under 5v right?
+Dennis Riessbeck that is not possible unless you have mad skills. What I'm doing is way easier.
I didn't say it would be easier, just wanted to point out if that isn't the right thing to do theoretically? Like why haven't fc manufacturers thought about this yet? Your solution is great but it isn't actually a solution, you could still have a brownout if your lipo would sag bad, right?
I thinck my drone is having a brownout issue but I'm not sure... I was flying an s4 5in build with a 6s lipo... I punched the throttle and at the peak my ESC reset (I could hear it though the camera) and my drone fell out of the sky. Im not sure if this is a brownout issue or something els.
Lifesaver!👍🏽🤙🏽😃
Albert, you mentioned the issue FC resetting/rebooting in-flight but not how to tackle that problem. Can you please advise your thoughts?
The solution is to add the additional voltage regulator. If the onboard regulator is overtaxed, the FC reboots.
Subscribed ;)
What are possible reasons for copter restarts (the esc starting sounds)? My setup is racestar 10a 4 in1 and the betaflight f4 with flysky receiver you used in a build. With XT30 and large battery. It is restarting while flying and also on the ground.
+Kaptn Firlefanz usually that means the ESCs are bad. You should also check for shorts with a multimeter.
Nice video! Question, what size props are those? Also did you print that canopy? If so where did you find stl? Thanks!
What Frame is that it looks sooo good!
Review video of that build is here - th-cam.com/video/xE1cWzEA9-0/w-d-xo.html
Great video. I have a Leader 120 that I am having serious flips of death issues. I have changed to XT30 with brand new 7.4v Tattu 75c batteries, tried changing idle speed, nothing helps. I still have the flips of death. Haven't had a chance to fly with goggles yet to see if camera cuts out because I am too scared that it will flip out on me. Would the BEC on the camera work on this model do you think? Any suggestions you have would be greatly appreciated. I just finished watching AndyRC's vid on prop size. But like he said, he likes the power these props give it, as do I.
There seems to be a lot of variation in what might be the root cause of the flips of death. I'm thinking something is up with these motors. I'm still investigating, but a lot of testing will need to be done to offer any help to anybody. The problem is finding the time to do all this testing.
does your Leader 120 do the flips too?
it did until I raised the idle speed to 8.5, then it was fine. Did you watch the Leader 120 video? th-cam.com/video/MYbqjT7CdcM/w-d-xo.html
Hey Albert, just wanted to let you know what I have done with this drone. I tried the GemFan 3025 props cut down a bit, like AndyRC did. Still flips. I then put a 5v BEC in it to isolate the camera, so that the board wasn't powering the camera anymore, still flipped. I tried 3.7, 6.5, 8.5 and 10 on idle speeds, flipped all of them. I did notice that I could almost make it flip every time when I flipped to the right. It wouldn't flip out when you did a soft quiet flip, just when you did a fast, more throttle flip. To the right happened almost everytime, but then front flips made it go nuts once in a while too!!. Would you have ANY other suggestions as to what to try?? I am so disappointed in this quad, it is so nice to fly when it isn't flipping out. I guess I could try the new version of Betaflight, but I am paranoid that with this lemon it would be even worse!! But, then again, how worse can it get, because I don't trust it to fly FPV now!!
So on my Kingkong110 I installed a vtx03 and runcam micro, now when I use 200 MW I get a flip of deaths on high throttle but no video break up. Does this mean voltage regulator will help or switching from jst to xt30 will help ? Thank you so much for this video btw
I'm not sure how you have things wired, but I'm assuming the VTX03 and RunCam Micro are both powered off the onboard BEC. When you increase to 200mW, the power draw also increases and puts more strain on the BEC. I think you should power the FPV stuff off a separate BEC like a Pololu or the part I have listed in this video. Seems the FC is resetting.
Thanks for this Albert! If I understand correctly, you mention two separate issues: voltage sags from the battery, and having a BEC that can't provide enough current for all the components.
I would assume that 3S batteries are much less susceptible to the voltage sag issue than 2S (assuming similar quality batteries) - is that true?
For providing current, what kind of safety margin do you think is good? I'm planning a 2" build that will draw up to 800mA* for just the RX, VTX, and camera, and I'm planning to use an FC with a 1.5A BEC. This seems like a lot of headroom. Presumably the FC itself doesn't draw that much current?
Thanks!
* FrSky XSR (100mA), Micro Swift 2 (130mA), Eachine VTX03 (360mA @ 25mW, 570mA @ 200mW), and Omnibus F3 Nano V2 FC (1.5A BEC).
3s is less susceptible by a little. That amount of margin seems OK assuming the rating on the specs is truly 1.5a... sometimes it's inaccurate.
if battery technology can't keep up with FC/ESC, why don't FC/ESC accommodate battery condition?
Because everyone is asking for MORE POWER! LOL
Okay, so this is not really related to this video, but at least it is related to power. I'm trying to keep my micro brushless quads as light as possible, and therefore trying to use JST connectors instead of the heaver XT30. I've noticed that the guage of the battery wires on my 2S batteries varies from as large as 18awg to as small as 24awg. At what point does the JST connector become the bottleneck? Put another way what guage wire best matches the current throughput of the JST connector? Then, if I do make the leap to the XT30, what guage wire should be used for that connector?
So I decided not to be so lazy and found on Wikipedia that the jst rcy connector handles 3 amps and varies between 22 to 28 awg. I infer from this that there would be no benefit to using anything bigger than 22awg for the connection to the fc. Is that accurate?
+Rick in Jax I use 20 awg but probably the connector is the limiting factor and not the wire
+Rick in Jax I use 20awg with JST and 16 awg for XT30. If you use 1103 or lower kv 1104 motors and keep it light JST will be fine.
Albert Kim Thanks! That helps. I fly mostly in my backyard where the tree canopy prevents flying higher than 15-20 feet and the longest straightaway is about 20-25 yds, so my 90GT (1103) works nicely, and won't do much damage if it hits anything (like me for example). I already upgraded to a JST connection, but I think I'll also upgrade to 20awg for the connection to the fc. Thanks again for the quick response.
Can I solder a 25v capacitor and a 5v bec on the battery lead?
Was that a yes? ...lol I really want to know if it is safe or not.
Don't remember you mentioning the thickness of the cable from the battery to the quad or C ratings of batteries.
+David Codrington c rating is marketing BS. Can't be believed. Gauge of wire is not as important as the connector itself.
I have a 117mm with 1105 8500kv I'm getting brownouts at full punch :( would you say the best/easy would be upgrade my jst to XT30? Thanks for you time love you videos I've learned so much have a great 4th I'm going to rip so batteries at 70% stick :*(
How big is your BEC on your flight controller? I think for that motor you need an XT30 for sure.
Micro F3 FC 4 in 1 BLLheli_S 10A AIO ESC Input voltage 2s-3s only 5v/1.5A switching power? does that help :) I'm getting some XT30's tomorrow after work I'll be trying that first see is that helps.
+GG Weslie 2.5 inch prop? 3s lipo? You might be taxing the ESCs. You can also try adding a separate bec like I did ... the 1.5amp rating might be optimistic
Albert Kim I'm using 2.8 inch props and I'm running 2s 350mAh. Yeah 3s is too much. Off to work now should get my XT30's today :)
Albert Kim I got my xt30's the other day and it fixed the problem I can do full punches now! This thing rips! Thank you for all your work.
you missed an issue of desyncs causing flips. Ive had this happen on two different motors. there were no shorts that I could detect. the coils were all intact. one motor did it fresh out of the box. I had no solution other than replace the motor. I call them phantom shorts.
+Michael Sharp I did mention desyncs in the video. I did not mention all the causes of desyncs which is a lot and a topic for its own video.
what about a capacitor like a 220uf or even a 100uf?
John Hunt capacitors doesn't help with brownouts, it only filters the voltage spike and doesn't work against voltage drop
Could help I think. Larger capacitors will act as a current source in the short term so yes, they can help with brownouts. Many of these micros are a bit noisy on the video feed currently, so a cap is a good idea in many cases, anyway.
I've seen at least one commenter somewhere report that they fitted a used (from 5" quad's old esc) capacitor (prob. about a 220uF 25v) to their micro 2" 2S build, and all their brownout issues were gone/fixed.
The 3S builds are not so problematic (susceptible to voltage sag issues) because of the higher voltage buffer. The problem is mostly 2S systems.
ive got a 2 inch quad and its a rocket on 3s but on 2s it barely lifts off the ground and the battery gets crazy hot. is there anything that im missing here?? my 2s battery is 70c so i dont think it should have too much trouble supplying the amps. if anyone has any ideas hmu :)
+harry lenon sounds like the battery is defective.
Great video Albert. I am sure to take this knowledge forward, but...I had something mysterious happen the other day and I wonder if you have an idea why. The build is a 4s 3in running f4 v3 , bl 20ax4 caddex turtle and rs1306 motors. no issue on punch out or flips, but i took it up high and started to descend fast into the prop wash, after a few slow oscillations it went into an unrecoverable death role. any ideas why? Thanks
Hmmm, it could be a lot of different things. I'm not sure where to start with just this information. I remember helping someone else with a similar issue and after about a month of back and forth, we couldn't figure it out.
@@AlbertKimTV Thanks, I am going to replace motors, change baseline throttle, and increase idle motor speed.
here's a vid if anyone else has an idea. th-cam.com/video/zIFSNqD2gko/w-d-xo.html