Fluorescent lamps, electronic vs. glow starters
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 5 พ.ย. 2023
- Experiments with some fluorescent tube fixtures with traditional magnetic ballasts (iron inductors). Comparing standard glow switch starters with an electronic starter, exploring what's inside. Reverse engineering the electronic fluorescent starter schematic and explaining how does it work. Some oscilloscope waveforms. Thanks for the donated electronic starters ;). Correction: they turn on after 1 cycle, not halfcycle.
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I have to say: These closeups of the bimetal starter in operation were pure ASMR. I wouldn't mind watching it for an hour.
Manually shorting out the starter contacts explains why my dad's retractable shop light had a momentary switch on it that you had to press to start it :)
Also as a kid I loved the noises the glow starters make
Ding
Ding
Ding
Ding
Diiiing!
I got a workbench lamp with a magnifying glass and ring tube from the trash. And it also has two switches, one toggle and one momentary. I was wondering what that would do, when I saw it. I also thought something was broken, because the lamp didn't turn on with the toggle switch. Only when I was looking for the starter, as they are the usual culprit for non-starting tubes, it "clicked" for me. It feels like in the ancient times, where I remember my uncle having to preheat his Diesel car and tractor 😅.
i used to start my 70w hps work light this way when I had no functional starter available 😅😅
Finally after years (50 or more) of fascination of low and high powered electronic circuitry,
your video has finally brought me to the understanding of the functioning of fluorescent lights😄.
Your ability to convey knowledge in an absorbable way is remarkable.
I love the way your cat treats like a muddleheaded student requiring the occasional encouraging prompt😅
I really appreciated this explanation, also learned a lot about fluorescent starters. I am slightly jealous about your collection of those stuff, here in Brazil even fluorescent tubes are "unobtainium" right now. Every light that worn off needs to be replaced by crappy led tubes.
My school still uses florescent tube
@@Denis7947. ive ever seen a huge soviet box of fluorescent tubes, so my school won't ever run out of them
Good for You but I think You missed the point: He cannot get any. Doesn´t matter if Your school uses them- He cannot obtain any neon tubes in his point of the globe at the moment. Ship some to him if You really want to help.@@Denis7947.
@@Gameplayer55055 lol
Then you need to collect used ones. Sometimes the ballast is worn but the tube is still good and vice versa.
If they get replaced als for some used ones.
Then you can start a collection
What an amazing video. I used to work in a hospital, illuminated by hundreds of fluorescent tubes, a significant proportion of which were permanently blinking, obviously using the old style starter. I had a good laugh at the mains voltage breadboard btw.
I preferred the flickery startups personally
@@lukedavis436me too., bond is stronger with that one huh.!
Excellent video with lots of information and demonstrations. This is why I love this channel!
I've understood the principles of how starters work for many years, but watching these bi-metal starters operate simplifies what can seem like a complex circuit. I'd never seen inside of the bulb type of starter before this video, so thank you.
This is one cool video. Watching the contacts come together then separate in the starter I have never seen before this video. You answered many questions on how fluorescent tubes start and once started run bypassing the starter.
Im always impressed by your makro recordings. Ive never seen such in detail video of a neon starter.
I have very unusual fluorescent lamps from old streetcars. They ran at 300V DC in series there, so always two lamps failed, never a single one (or an odd number of lamps). You might know the legendary Tatra T3 trams, but the lights I have are from a K2 tram, which is the articulated version. I initially got them for free from old trams that were sent for modernization (they never had those lights afterwards) a few decades ago. I used a ballast and starter, but later reused electronic drivers from dead fluorescent bulbs. It was the filaments in the bulbs that failed after about 8 years, not the electronic circuit. So I botched it to the big streetcar lights and they work fine ever since then (about 10 years now). The upside is that they light up instantly and do not flicker. I remember dumpster diving for old fluorescent light-bulbs, as I knew that the electronics inside some of them (I focused on Philips 22W) was perfectly fine in driving the 25W tubes used in streetcars. The only problem is, those tubes are quite atypical length (1 meter), which cannot be bought commercially and I have to source them from old streetcars that are being scrapped (commercial lengths are 0,6 meters and 1,2 meters). The problem is that worn out tubes rarely work properly. In streetcars, where they run on 300V DC they work, but not always when I try to run them. Fun fact: The streetcars have a polarity reverser that periodically reverses the polarity on the tubes to ensure even wear of the electrodes. Older series relied on the driver regularly switching the lights between the two "ON" positions that were either side of the "OFF" position, usually at terminus stations. The funny thing is, that I had to completely rewire the streetcar lights in order to make them run. The original 600V rated cables were a super thick rubber insulation with a super thin copper wire inside. Very unusual in comparison with regular 230V "household" stuff. I still have four of those lights in my garage and they work without problems. Another interesting thing: The light fixtures did have resistive heaters running alongside them next to the tube to make sure those tubes would light up even in harsh winter conditions at temperatures of -40°C. Those heating elements were about 1 cm away from the tubes and ran in parallel to them. I do not remember how they were wired, it is about 20 years since I modified them. Maybe even longer. I have some spare electronics drivers and one spare tube that works, but give the reliability, I do not expect to need any of them soon. I wish I had gathered more of those lights and drivers 20 to 15 years ago, when those streetcars and bulbs were massively being replaced by more modern things.
You are the best teacher of electronics I've ever had. Period.
The starter closeup is the best thing I saw today on the internet. Since childhood I wondered how it worked. These tubelights were used at home when I was small. Once a starter failed and what I did was pulled out the bulb from starter and inserted a small cherry and it actually worked.
I love ❤️ these longer videos!!!! I learned so much about fluorescent lights from this!!! Thanks 😊 again for sharing your great content!!!
I always enjoyed the glow of starters and sometimes removed the cover to see the glow. They also make a nice christmas lights blinker circuit.
Very nice demonstration. I really like old fluorescent lights because they seem to last a long time, and remind me of better days before all of the far East poor quality parts we are forced to use now with LED lights. My shop has all fluorescent lights but they are North American spec T12 high-output lamps, with a more complex ballast. These ballasts have been unavailable for years. I have been removing the potting compound and replacing the worn out metal film capacitors in them to keep my lights working.
In the '60's and '70's I had some florescent 2' and 4' tube fixtures. They all used big heavy ballasts and starters. The starters had a hole in the top of the can where you could see the light from the the electrodes arcing as it started the tube. If the tube wouldn't light and there was no glow from the hole, you knew the starter was bad.
Wouldn't an open filament appear the same?
Some very old fixtures had a manual preheat switch. I have also seen one model of stater that used half-wave rectification to saturate the ballast, rapidly heat then cut off to hit the tube with a whopping great spike.
As allways very interesting and good explained!
Wonderfull video from the "Start"!
Fluorescent Tubes are forbidden in germany since september 2023. You can only use old ones but not buy new ones.
Wow... The close up view of the starter was great!
I absolutely love your long videos. I was always thinking the capacitor is for interference suppression, I learned something new. Thumbs up 😎
Huge thanks for showing how flouresent lamp starter works!
Your channel is awesome. All the various topics you cover and all the detailed explanations are outstanding. ❤
It's so nostalgic to hear and see the flickering of the starting lamps. It was part of my childhood and was always kind of hypnotic to see them starting!
👍 Nice investigation of the classic fluorescent starting system - something from my childhood times. Thank you for sharing! 👏
I love your videos!
Every time you post a video it makes my day complete!
(especially when its about older glas tube based electronics)
Its such a wonderfully reliable design. Fair due to the people that developed this and made it so reliable.
cool video thanks! never thought in depth about these lights but in awe of how cool the inner workings of a seemingly mundane device are, thanks for your work, keep up the great work!
Like you just showed with the traditional starter in series with a lightbulb, that´s how we simulated a bonfire for a school theater stage on a budget
It took me years, to fully understand how flourescent lights worked. This video shows very clearly how they work. Brilliant..
I always thought that the capacitor in the starter, was to quench the spark across the bimetallic contacts and provide interference supression. Which would explain why it is missing in an electronic starter.
Now I have to figure how some flourescents can be dimmed. Some I have come across needed special tubes with an extra filament in them. But I have seen others that use standard (UV) tubes.
I worked at sea and my first ship had DC 110v mains. there was a single flourescent fitting over the projector screen, in the mess room. It had to be started with a push switch. (No AC mains).
You can easily dim a fluorescent tube "just" by reducing the amount of current in the main discharge. The hard part is the reduced current results in a lower electrode temperature so you often need extra electrode heating. There's no need for a special tube, this can be done in an 4 pin ordinary tube just by applying some voltage across each filament.
I really loved that blinking, also the characteristic sound 🤗
Thank you, I have long wondered about the old tube starters.
Your macros of the igniter are awesome! This should be a reference!
I like the in-depth video. Learned a lot thanks to you.
Hey, this electronic starter is made in my country, Mauritius, thought we did not manufacture anything over here . . .
I just noticed this as well… didn’t know Philips had a factory in Mauritius
I like the in depth videos you make! I already know how those fluorescent lamp circuits work but nice for others to learn this (now ancient) technology. I like these kinds of lamps because they are pretty clever!
Cool post. Clear and well presented. Vibrators from old tube radios vs. solid state replacement which is usually built into the old can. Some self-rectify. Interesting study.
Awesome informative video. I became nostalgic coz my childhood was with these fluorescent tubes & myself always tinkering the circuitry of them to understand the usage of ballast & starter!
Very interesting. I always wondered why the lamp flickers at start up, but never wondered enough to investigate a starter.
The simple mechanic principle with the bimetal strip is absolutely awesome. Its a game of hazard - but sooner or later, it will trigger the lamp... Great content!
I accidentally learned how this works when I was a boy (maybe 10-11 years old) and used to play with starters and iron ballasts connected to batteries or small power supplies from toys. The iron ballast gave me some electric shocks when I disconnected the power supply. I got intrigued why it happened while disconnecting (insted of connecting) the power supply, until I learned what an inductor is and how it works.
Thank you for providing us with great content!
Thanks for your support ;)
Excellent video as always. I learnt a lot. Thank you for sharing this.
Dobrá práce, moc hezké video. Konečně vím, co je v těch elektronických startérech. 👍
what an incredible video! I'm very happy that you made another video about something that I like so much, about a type of lamp that I like the most (which is why my profile photo is a narva starter)
Absolutly tremendous pics, first time in mi live I se in this tremendous way this process of turn on FL lamp !
Thanks man, learnt heaps from this one
Thank you !!! Thank you ! A very nice video with the best kind of explanation of one of the most useful electric appliances... Too bad, however unfortunately, that it came at a time when those tubes are replaced by LEDs...
i did ask for such video before , thank you so much , you are the best keep going
Kudos for the close up Bi metallic stuff !...cheers.
Danke!
Thanks!
Nice explained+bloody long = best
Never seen this series of tubes or this parallel configuration with ballast and the other tube with inductive ballast + capacitor...
Thanks, it's really interesting and well explained
Once Again fundamental and well explained video
I love the glowing eyes of Catculator.
whoa.. those oldschool starters look cool inside :O
A bit late for halloween now, but using a fluro starter in series with an incandescent bulb produces a nice "scary" looking faulty light, ruins the starters, and probably the bulb too, but a neat effect for cheap, or at least it used to be 'til standard bulbs and starters went up in price... :P
(EDIT: And of course, such a thing was demonstrated in the vid had I waited to comment!!)
yep, did that when I was a kid!
When I was at school in the 1980s, money in the educational system was so tight, we were limited to one light starter per classroom (all old-style glow starters). Every afternoon in the Winter, somebody would be given the task of climbing on desks, reaching up and inserting the starter into each light fitting in turn to start the light.
It sounds crazy today (even more so, considering the temporary blinding effect of the tube bursting into life while you were standing precariously on a desk), but it undeniably kept the price of school meals low across the county, so maybe it was actually worth it .....
After I left university, one of my friends lived in a flat with a faulty starter in the bathroom light, which had to be twisted in and back out again to make the light come on. I guess the faulty starter must have been short-circuit.
awesome video. i love fluorescent lights
9:25 the one made in Poland is actually manufactured by Philips/Piła
Very useful and interesting knowledge.
I have never seen a screwdriver with a resistor(?) inside of it. Very interesting!
That was really interesting. Thanks.
Veľmi pekné video s vysvetlením princípu činnosti žiarivkového osvetlenia a video mi vôbec neprišlo nejako veľmi dlhé, takéto aspoň pre mňa zábavné a poučné videá kľudne môžu byť aj dlhé a aj tak neprestanú baviť, lebo je tam spústa zaujímavých a užitočných informácií a tiež tu boli pekné experimenty a zaujímavé závery vyplývajúce z týchto experimentov. Tiež sa mi veľmi páčil ten záber zblízka na ten štartér, ako sa pri zapálení tej dútnavky pekne k sebe tie elektródy približovali a potom výboj zhasol a nastalo nažeravenie žiarivky a potom jej zapálenie, toto bolo v tomto videu tiež pekne ukázané.
one would say so easy device but the reality is: it is quite complicated. And the cherry on the cake is the way you described everything - astonishing! Diki moc pane
*Nice explanation ❤❤*
Back in the old days of the 1980s, there was a diy Christmas tree decoration in the house where the bulb in the lamps had a random flashing switch made of a starter of fluorescent lights in series. It looked cool and the crackling noises interrupted the radio :)
Loved the video.
Super fascinating! I always wondered how the old starters worked. I am curious here in 120v land, can you run a tube with just ballast and starter like you can in 230v places? I don't know why I always thought they had to use a transformer too to step up voltage...
We need transformers for 4ft and larger tubes, but for 2ft and smaller tubes the traditional circuit works fine. I remember there was a dark windowless bathroom in the old wing of my middle school. I liked arriving when the lights were off because then I could be the one to watch them turn on. Actually I'm sure most of the time I just turned them off and back on.
More recently I noticed a fluorescent wall light clicking and failing to strike at the local library just this weekend which surprised me. The light was installed when the building was renovated around 2004 so I would've expected an electronic ballast.
@@eDoc2020 re: "for 4ft and larger tubes"
4ft tubes strike just fine on a 120VAC 60 Hz circuit here ... at TI they used the very long single contact per end in the overhead lights, but then they also had access to 480 V multiphase mains too.
@@uploadJ I just looked at the ANSI C78.81 document and a 48T12 lamp (of the American variety) requires 176-230 Vrms between lamp terminals to start. With the inductive spike of a mechanical starter this could work but it would likely take several tries. The more important problem is that the nominal lamp operating point is 101 volts which is getting pretty close to 120 volts. The lamp power would vary an unacceptable amount with line voltage fluctuations, temperature, etc.
We obviously do have 4ft tubes run from a 120v source but the difference is we do not use a simple series inductive ballast like shown here. We usually use a "rapid start" ballast which is a more complicated step-up transformer with integral current-limiting. These have extra windings to directly heat the filaments and do not use starters. The reference ballast is equivalent to a 236 VAC supply and a 439 ohm current limiter.
The 8ft long tubes with a single contact on each end are instant-start. The reference ballast for those is equivalent to a 625 VAC source and a 1280 ohm current limiter. They rely on this very high voltage to start without preheating the cathodes.
Really nice!!! My humble thanks.
Every horror movie scene only uses these lamps
Or just the starters
Great video.
My grandparents had a new-fangled flourescent fixture installed at their house shortly after WWII finished. There was a momentary button below the switch on the wall for starting.
The capacitor in the starter is set to reduce sparking on the contacts. This way they last longer.
So, like an ignition condenser on an engine? But like Dan says the blinks are also slower with the capacitor.
@@1pcfred Yes.
I don't see the difference in blinking speed with or without the capacitor.
I agree i think its there to stop arcing and welding of the contacts but thinking about the mode of operation he might also be right we need to work out what exactly makes the contacts open up is it just because when they short the heat inside the starter dies down and thet open or is it welded and relies on the capacitor obviously the arc cant form that ignites the tube till the contacts open so that rules out the tube pulling down the current having anything to do with it apart from stopping the starter warming again
It also carges to the voltage inductively generated by thew ballast and stays ata higher voltage for a few milliseconds.
re: "The capacitor in the starter is set to reduce sparking on the contacts. "
Arcing - it reduces the 'gas plasma' that forms, which works against getting the main tubes to 'light up' (note: The Neon tube is in parallel with the main fluorescent tubes.).
I've done some testing with some Hid bulbs, and these seem to start the bulbs!! 😀
My grandpa used the old style flashers to flash his string of incandescent xmas lights
Very nice sir 👍
The wiring system you talk about is, I would guess, some variation of the TN-C system, where Neutral and Protective Earth is the same conductor
Finally on the topic....gas discharge lamps.....stupid LEDs destroyed the market..
Very interesting! I have seen ring lights with a magnifying glass in the middle (For working on small things) and they just had a push button you had to hold a few seconds to start it. It makes sense now :)
Ring lights w/magnifier: Three way switch w/3rd position being momentary (start) position ...
Nice info, thanks :)
How do you get those macro shots done? They are beautiful! I'm wondering especially about the large depth of focus, which is hard to get on macros.
Where's the clicking sound of a starting fluorescent tube actually coming from? I always though it was the starter making/breaking contact. But from this videos it seems that there's only a "ping" when the lamp actually strikes (or at least flashes) and not every time the starter makes/breaks contact.
Tinga tinga ting, it feels as if the starter bulb has a mind of it's own. Like someone using a striker to start a fire
v interesting how things have changed in a short time
I remember rubbing the tube with a cloth to get them to start😂
Very interesting!! I've always been fascinated by FL starters and ballasts
I have some old flourescent lamps where the on/off switch is a push-on/push-off but you need to push and hold to ignite the lamp. I guess the power button has two switches in it - one in series with the mains and one parallel with the tube.
Ya - the old 2-lamp desklamps that used to be used throughout offices had this arrangement. Watch the fifties movies and not the lamps clamped to a desk edge ...
Thanks!
Nice video. Thanks for explaining something not obvious and not written everywhere. Your assumptions looks perfectly correct. What the threshold voltage of jc1? Thanks
The JC1 diode drops 0.6V measured using a multimeter. Just slightly more than 1N4007. But of course, at a higher current, it might drop close to 1V.
The only thing i dont get is when you use the electronic starter in series with the 60w bulb and P0130AA goes in conduction mode and stops conducting only when you disconnect and reconnect. Did you understand why this happens? Because if P0130AA is conductive due to 100uF cap charged at 0,6-1v connecting and disconnecting the circuit shouldnt interdict him.
Thank You mr Dan for this video! I really like old fashion fluorescent tubes! Only neon, blinking starter, it makes it... magic!
Do you have any other types of those tubes? Like transparent or high power ones? Can you make a video with low pressure sodium lamps and another arc lamps?
thank you
Excellent
It's the neon lamp that makes that ding sound? I always wondered
Yes, the contacts in it separating
4:57 thats a good close up portion. I will use this to make a boot animation for Android phones and send it to the Android Community. They can use it with costom roms.
Я всегда впечатлялся работе люминесцентной лампы. Вы только посмотрите на то, как она зажигается! Лампа будет мигать до момента, пока фаза сети не совпадёт с фазой выброса из дросселя, тогда напряжение удвоится и начнется свечение ртутного газа, находящегося внутри колбы газоразрядной лампы.
Когда мне было 9 лет, я скопировал схему лампы, которая находилась в коридоре. Я собрал аналогичную лампу из деталей, которые были принесены отцом с работы. Я был очень рад, когда моя лампа засветилась. Я отдал её в подъезд на первый этаж.
感謝分享電子啟動器電路板 電路圖 非常受用
thanks a lot you are the best
May I ask where you got all your ballast and other support for fluorescent lamps ?
Eco-Friendly or Harmful stamps can be more volatile than a “Freon”.
While the capacitor does have an interference suppression function, my thinking is that is not its main reason for existence. It doesn't have nearly enough value to keep the contacts closed briefly, that's accomplished simply the the thermal mass of the bimetallic strip. I think the main reason for the capacitor is to route the high voltage starting kick from the inductor around the gas tube, so it doesn't conduct and draw current away from the lamp.
When I have a starter with welded contacts I connect it to a 10A power supply and blow the short apart. I was always under the impression that the capacitor was to reduce RFI, since a fluorescent tube is effectively an arc lamp. If the capacitor is shorted I cut it out of circuit.
What's interesting is that 220 Volts fluorescent lamps basically have the same set up as 110 Volts ones (some 110 Volts AC fluorescent lamps use special autotransformers to provide necessary arc voltage to the longer fluorescent tubes, namely 32 - 40 Watts varieties, of course and keep the filament cherry red hot so the electrode wear is lessened somewhat), namely the inductor ballast acting like a variable reactive resistor to maintain sane arc voltage so fluorescent tubes don't have too much current flowing through which is naturally bad.
As for the relaxation oscillation, DC would work best, and try 1 to 100 uF 250 Volts DC electrolytic capacitors and you would see it rhythmically blinking.
It would be nice to dig out your Geiger counter and test the old starters. Some modern starters claim they are not radioactive. This suggests some older ones were radioactive! Probably to keep the gas ionised, lowering the striking voltage.
That's freaking awesome ... always wondered why the old tubes blinked like that. So How do the LED replacements work in this system?
When retrofitting LED tubes, the inductor is typically bypassed and the starter removed or replaced with a short. You just bring mains voltage into the tube to power the LEDs using an internam switching power supply.
Hi, thank you info test😊 starter electronic & neon standard , collection ?