Latency - Facts, Fiction and Perception
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 22 ม.ค. 2020
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Another issue with latency is phase. If you are processing things in parallel and one path has more latency than the other, they two signals won't mix together in phase exactly. So you can end up with comb filtering in the mix.
Yes! While I was editing this video I thought "I'll have to do one about phase next". I remember using a parallel effects loop for the first time with a digital multifx and I couldn't understand why my tone suddenly sounded hollow.
@@LeonTodd Modern DAWs take care of it for you when you're using plugins. They automatically adjust each track so they line up no matter how many plugin's you stick on each one. That's why "the kids these days" often don't know this stuff. But then ... I started my career with 2" tape and Dolby SR. A more romantic era of audio production. ;) Bloody expensive though.
Really good video as usual! The problem become real when you play through any modeler (2/5 ms of latency), using a wireless system (8/10 ms of latency), maybe you pass through your band's digital mixer (8/10 ms of latency) and maybe you play on stage 3 meters away from your speaker (10 ms of latency)...you can easily reach 28/35 ms of latency. Same thing if you play your modeler trough an audio interface and you run multiple plugins each one adding his own latency... The problem is not the latency of one single element in the chain but usually the sum of all of them.
Steve Vai Literally just claimed in a NAMM video that he can hear/feel one millisecond of latency ;)
I mean he called out his rig haha
He was playing through eventides and rocktrons for full effects without maintaining a dry signal parallel. Now the tech is nearly hundred times better and says he is unhappy with that “latency”
WE DEMAND A TEST
I also find it funny that he uses an axe fx 2 in an fx loop but finds that an axe fx 3 by itself has too much latency. Using a worse device and more stuff inline with it and perceiving less latency? 🤔😝
The 15 year old who spent 3 months listening to nothing but Passion and Warfare and Eat 'Em and Smile likes to think he probably used latency in the wrong context.
The 31 year old loudmouth with a TH-cam channel who got sent that video a dozen times yesterday wants to point out that there is the same amount of latency present in his rig whether he runs the Axe-Fx with an amp or not.
Time to go practice.
Not sure which I pronounce worse - beta, mesa or latency.
Also, thanks to the Fossil for his input at 2:26.
Leon Todd - Not at all man, you pronounce
‘latency’ perfectly! And the beta thing is awesome because you got everyone on the Fractal Forum talking about the latest ‘beeta’ all the time! LOL! Some people are just natural-born trendsetters! Just roll with it, my man, and keep doing you!! :-)
@@BeckyYork A 16th at 180bpm is 83 milliseconds. That would be a *lot* of latency that you're experiencing.
@Leon Todd Don't worry Jeice your pronunciation is fine...
speed of sound is 343m/s , so 15ms would be +-5.1meters or +-16.73 feet for the imperial system
Those who claim they can hear 2ms of latency must see everyone's lips talking out of sync with their voice - we talk to each other at a lot further away than a couple feet. That would definitely explain the people who want to talk in your face from six inches away...
Plague Scythe Studios
Good point Ryan.
Can always count on you to be the voice of reason.
You the man.
Even in a tube amp there is some latency. Every capacitor in the signal chain is a time delay in the amp. The best demonstration of latency in a tube amp is the shimmer effect when you set the treble and bass knob of a fender bassman at 50%. This is caused by the large capacitor in the bass control
I just heard Steve Vai talk about this. He said for him, he didn't like Latency, which no one does.. He's using these Cynergy preamps, etc..
Great info. Data matters..
Steve Vai was there to sell his Synergy module.
Great vid dude! The trial part where you decreased the delay by 10ms each time was very cool. I was looking down taking a bite when you came in with the gruff voice by the speaker and cracked up as soon as I looked up. Just recently traded my tube head and 4x12 for an Axe iii and FC-12. Has been fitting my apartment lifestyle a bit more and I've been playing\writing more. Gonna be digging through your channel and the manual to get better at it but it's already pretty much the best recorded tone I've ever gotten. Cheers bro and next time you're in NYC the beer is on me. ;)
Well thought out, nicely done. Point made well, Leon.
Well done, That's a Great Topic and Example! I've realized over the years if someone annoys me, my latency increases! Thanks for sharing brother! Be Well Leon!
Love this, thank you for talking about it man! It drives me nuts when people talk about latency in digital systems as if it doesn’t also occur in the case of a fully analog one coming through a speaker.
One amp modeler or one H9 are not going to give you headaches with latency. But when you have 4 digital fx, an amp modeler, everything is going trough a digital mixer and you have in ears.... you will feel it. Cheers Leon!
my older interface had 15 ms of latency and It doesn't bothered me till I found this butthurt topic on the internet
Hi Leon,
I will never be able to perceive latency around 1 to 15ms as well. However, I sometimes experienced following scenario.
Let’s say we’re playing with the latency just below the ‘threshold’, saying 15ms, with an fx plugin on DAW, for 2 hours. Then after the 2 hours let’s say we’re starting playing with 2ms of latency with AxeFx.
At this point where I switched to AxeFx, I often felt like I’m connected more closely to the sound than when I played with 15ms latency. I would say it feels something similar like removing sandbags hung on my hand.
My conclusion is, these tiny latencies are not really perceivable at a moment but it might have been affecting us ever so slightly and gradually in a long time frame. Probably I’m wrong. And I admit I’m still struggling about this topic.
Also personally I’ve been wishing someone could make a video about this topic and so glad that you’re the hero speaking out!
Thank you always for making quality contents!
I was reading recently about how keyboard players, especially pianists, often end up practicing "latency compensation" since there's an inherent delay in striking a note on something like a piano and the note actually being struck. Could be a similar thing to the 15ms vs 2ms thing!
@@LeonTodd Think about church organ players. Sometimes , some of the pipes are so far away from them they have to switch to playing ahead of time to compensate for different sounds on different manuals! it blows my mind how they do that.
@@LeonTodd Thank you for the insights! I think I should just play. 🎸
Great observation/explanation. Thanks!
Hey Leon. This may actually be one of my favourite videos from you. Why do you ask? Well. You explained it, without being a blind fanboy of a product (not saying you were in any other video) while making an effort to understand Steve Vai points of view, and not being insulting or condescending and presenting why he "may" be wrong in his assessment with good points. And yeah, Cats are better hehe
I just watched the whole Steve Vai interview with Rick Beato where he mentions about latency and feel and how it is person’s choice on digital modellers or amps etc.
Your video on latency and perception/feel, makes sense to me and likely everyone has their own tolerance to how much latency they can tolerate or detect before they feel awkward to be able to play how they want.
One thing Steve Vai talked about was taking a studio amp modeller sound (patch written in studio to sound great) but didn’t translate how he expected in a live situation. This is his experience as no doubt others have had no issues.
Also he found that modellers tended to flatten the dynamics of the sound, least to what he heard.
This comment reminded me of a video by Alex5000 you tuber who reviewed his kemper vs his tube amp. He noticed the same thing, particularly when using the volume pot a lot. For Alex5000 he uses both depending on the situation.
I think guitar technology is great and we as guitarist have so much choice (maybe too much ‘GAS’) to enable us to sound like our heroes (to an extend ;) or develop a unique sound that’s in our head.
It’s great to see guitarists/ musicians like yourself sharing your tips/tricks and experiments. This enables us all to learn and broaden our knowledge.
Thanks and great channel 👍
There's no magic cure-all or the perfect rig for everyone. Ultimately it's about following the sound in your head!
thanks leon. it was so insightful
Like you mention, as long as you maintain an analog dry path there will be no latency.
Another point is that, if you add anything into the effects loops of a digital unit you add latency due to added D/A and A/D conversions.
Thanks for these educational videos
Thanks mate. Lots of buzzwords, so little time to clarify them.
I gave up arguing with people online years ago about this. I agree with you I have always thought that around 15ms was acceptable when recording into the DAW. So many people claim they can detect anything over 5ms. Bull fucking shit.
It's only when playing slide or fretless that latency becomes an issue for me. It really highlights how much micro-correction you do, to stay in tune. When you hit a note, then there's the time it takes to hear it, you adjust that tiny fraction, then have to 'wait' to hear it again, so to speak. It rather compounds the effects of latency, possibly 2-3 times the actual amount present in the system. I struggled with it in the early days of DI recording (not that long ago, lol), but it's been a while since I did any recording.
Spot on man, at last someone who gets it Latency is a bane in a DAW
Thanks Leon... your a welcome change to this TH-cam business....much love...best wishes...
I appreciate that!
I'm guessing that this video is about the recent Steve Vai Rick Beato interview where Vai talks about Latency of modelers while he has an Axe Fx 2 sitting in his rack behind him? LOL
wonderfully well-explained and I never thought of latency in the analogue world before (distance from an amp) - and you referenced both Gary Moore and Robert Fripp! - not bad from a young one :) - tho i have to ask, is the Axe Fx 2ms umm in and out? that sounds (lol) too good to be true
Great video and explanation! I had a problem switching to the wrong audio driver, once i switched it made a huge difference in feel and of course recording to a metronome. (im using a the axe fx into a audio interface)
Lol, the Vai vid kinda trigger me yesterday too. Thanks for this vid. Spot on.
Sound travels at around 1ft / ms. So 15ms is like standing an extra 15 feet away from your cab.
Cool Vid Leon, Good Work, remember Vai didn't have a problem with using the Rack gear back in the day.
Very much agree with your points - I'm not a fan of digital modelling but I must admit to not knowing why. It doesn't "feel" bad but I don't find myself feeling happy with the sound. I could start waffling on about "there's something in the top end" but based on this video let me just say instead I struggle to dial it in ..
Cats .. nothing against dogs - some friends have lovely dogs but I prefer cats .. and they don't take as long to cook either ..
I'm just curious, is it just when you are playing a modeller yourself, or also when you hear someone else playing it? Like in videos like this etc?
@@Maggai when I've heard modellers live through big PAs then they've normally been ok but pretty much most other times I've heard them as being thin and wiry .. obviously not a real amp.
Videos are altogether different though. Can't generalise about them at all
@@TheActressAndBishop Ah, gotcha. Makes sense!
Where people may be feeling latency is when they plug a modeller into their recording interface. The latency of both might be where they are having problems. Most interfaces with the buffers turned low should be fine though. I never measured the latency of both units, but when I moved from an Ultra to the AX8, the AX8 felt snappier. Might have been just in my mind, but maybe there was something there.
Spot on as per usual. Latency is used by the "purists" to put down the digital alternatives. Problem with that argument is each metre you are away from your cab incurs 3ms of latency. When I switch on my "real" amp/cab, I'm two or more metres away for the spacial effect which results in ~6ms. Varying latency will affect phase on multiple signals but that's a whole new story.
Hi Leon!
Agree with you on the latency topic. Only just a thought with NO POLEMICS AT ALL (I can't underline, so tha capital letters): the only complain that's valid and true to me is when you run analog AND digital signals in parallel, that's when you begin to notice those few ms of latency... and only because those few ms are screwing the phase relationship between the two signals, for sure not for the ms alone.
Also that's why (for me at least) it's way better to have 100% wet on digital effects and run them in parallel in a mixed environment of analog and digital (say a W/D/W rig) or in a simper rig just a 100% serial loop with a digital unit and the signal 100% going through it.
My 2 cent
Cheers from Italy!
Flavio
Oh yeah phasing due to latency - yuck!!!
Spot on dude.. The phrasing / comb filtering is a result of the ear not being capable of hearing 2 discrete events. The delay is so short that waveforms begin to overlap creating phasing issues. PS: Vai's wireless sys has longer latency.
Regarding latency, I think there are many things to consider: First, I think there is a difference between where you feel the latency, and where it affects your playing. Many years ago, I played thru plugins in a system with 10-15 ms latency - It felt instant to me, but in the recordings, my time was completely off. I switched to the red bean pod 2.0, and my timing improved significantly. I also always felt like latency was much more disturbing in headphones than through speakers.
Another thing is that in today's live environments, there are so many sources of latency. Your wireless guitar system, the AxeFX, the digital mixer, your digital in-ear system, and there can be even more. So yes, we get used to quite a fair bit of latency.
Yeah by the time you've gone guitar - wireless - amp/modeller - digital mixer - transmitter - in-ears receiver it definitely starts to add up. I really wish there were more devices with digital I/O options.
As an aside, how long until your III arrives?
Great Video as usual... Im off topic but what is the depth of your SKB rack case?
That’s a good argument for if you’re using a pedal chain - go analog; and if you’re using a modeling unit - use one of them that does everything you need it too, and if necessary, only supplement it with analog pedals.
2:26 cracked me up!!!
Fossil returns!
Still the best video on the topic.
😍
Great vid! Is there any added latency when we stack up (in series) a bunch of analog pedals together? I understand there is not ADDA conversion but wondering if adding on a bunch of analog pedals (and turning them on) would contribute to any latency?
I stumbled upon this video precisely because I could “feel” the effects of latency when playing through my Eventide H9. Most algorithms do not detract from from feeling of playing and hearing the note in real time, despite the lack of analog dry through. However some of them, especially when running in pre/post routing mode, have a noticeable latency between the feeling of striking the strings with my pick or fingers and the sound my ear perceives. I’m noticing this primarily when playing at home and given COVID-19, I haven’t used my new H9 in a live setting. But I’m betting when I do use the H9 live with a full band and stage monitors, I won’t hear it that much, if at all.
'no latency when you do this !' lmao
I remember that Yngwie or someone else chain-connected Marshalls, plugging into bright channel first and on the second input of that channel out to another Marshall. I wonder if enough of that amps in chain were connected signal would get any latency, even if small measurable amount.
Would, but will take a lot of amps I guess. Electricity travels at the speed of light, so if you have enough of the wires’ and circuits’ you will unleash latency in the end lol
If you want to double track thrash parts, you need as low latency as possible or you will lose hours time alligning parts in reaper. Which is from bothersome to impossible sometimes.
Why high sample rates matter?
Even excluding high recording sample rates for the sound quality (=avoiding aliasing on the edge of human hearing requires much higher sample rates, else we would record everything on 20-33khz rate. And hi gain? All those treble overtones/artifacts...high sampling is good...every major modelling manufacturer upsamples internally for those reasons alone), you get an amazing bonus.
If you go up to 24 bit/192khz recording, you are usually up to less than 5 ms latency for 512 samples. That
a) Allows for steady hi gain/complex sounds/math in the plugin, so you don't get crackling as easily.
b) If you want even faster you can go down to 256 samples and slash another 2ms so less than 3ms total latency equals what you hear standing some meters from the speaker when you are standing in front of an analog amp and you are plugging straight in. That's cool!!!
Even in analog system adding a serial time based effect will ad 2-3 ms of latency and you won't really percieve it.
From the pod XT onwards, good multi-effects/modelling devices aim for 2ms latency before time effects. Fractal has it. The kemper doesn't. Yeah that's a nail right there and I like the kemper more than fractal...
You could argue, why not 32 bit/384 khz sampling rate to reach less than 3ms latency in the pc?
The crystals in the dacs can't really handle it...
Stick with 24 bit/192 khz it's great in my oppinion. Totally workable.
Inevitably there is latency from the sound that came out of the speaker and our ears in a totally analog system....BUT we have to remember that using digital systems will add even more latency to that.
Rick Beato interviewed Steve Vai this week, and Steve said he doesn't use modeling cause he can "feel 1ms of latency". Vai is a guitar God, and an Alien... but not ACTUALLY a God OR an Alien. haha
Someone doesn't like modeling, that's cool. All you've gotta say is, "I don't care for it. I like the feel of a real amp in the room, pushing air through a speaker." Cool.
I was getting about 120ms latency running my Line 6 UX1, when playing VSTs, but maybe 6ms using PodFarm. I recently switched over to a Scarlet 2i2, and am getting about 5-6ms using VSTs and couldn't be happier about that. Don't get me wrong, I still love Line 6 stuff, but the PodFarm wasn't cutting it any more, and Helix Native is just too pricey for me right now. And no, I can't "feel" the 5ms latency, cause trust me, I'm no Steve Vai. None of us are.
Have a great dog and you get over the hair, smell, and slobber :) Then it never bothers you that much after.
I used to ask "latency-whiners" what type of car they drive. If they drive a fossil car there is a HUGE amount of latency, haha ... The only latency in my "battery car" is me ... ;-) Great episode as always!!
I recently got my Line6 Helix Lt,, And using a Cali 4 amp model in it... as I play faster licks... i just feel like m struggling to play with it.... and with the plugins it sounds fine... i don't understand what exactly the problem is... is there any way to fix this problem?????
I was sure that “latency” was some kind of clothing that we wore during the Hair Metal Daze, as in "I see Sixx is wearing some of that new look latency, we need to get us some of that"
Hahaha I need to put it on a bright pink neon shirt
I don't care too much about latency if it's low. For example, I don't use the direct monitoring feature of my interface. Instead I route the signal through my DAW and monitor it from there, which adds some latency. It's easier to set levels there, that's the reason for it.
BUT, what's really weird for me is playing through real speakers instead of headphones. I always play through headphones, like really always, but whenever I play through speakers I can feel something being slightly off. And I think it's because of the latency produced by the sound traveling from the speakers to my ear. I'm not saying I can notice a latency of under 20ms but I can feel a difference between headphones and real speakers, timing-feeling-wise.
I never actually tried to measure the latency of my setup... I just noticed that it's there... But out of curiosity, I did it, apparently it's around 80 ms... Damn... That's a lot...
I had a discussion with Mick Taylor of That Pedal Show in the comments section of one of their videos. He claimed that he found latency from modellers really distracting and said he's spoken to Rabea who apparently claimed he found it really difficult to use modellers at first due to latency. I didn't want to get into an argument with him because he's a nice guy, but I did point out to him that each millisecond is equivalent to moving approximately 1ft away from the speaker. I remember wanting to ask him if he finds it difficult to play when he's 5ft away from an amp as opposed to 3ft but I refrained (as I said, I didn't want to start an argument).
A slight aside: I also seem to remember Dan making some questionable statements regarding digital pedals. I can't remember his exact words, but he was talking about the difference in the high frequencies between an analogue and a digital pedal. Now, it's possible he chose his words poorly, but he seemed to be saying that he could hear the high frequency filtering performed by an oversampling converter. Regardless of the fact that this happens at frequencies far above 20KHz (considering his age, it's doubtful he can hear up to 20KHz, let alone beyond it), there is also the fact that guitar speakers have a limited frequency response anyway. I'm not saying the digital pedal didn't sound different, but he was attributing it to the fact that the pedal was digital rather than the algorithm/EQ of that particular pedal.
There's always a trade off between taking someone's experience into account and the technical facts, but I certainly share your skepticism in both of those cases. Comparing two different circuits/algorithms and claiming to hear oversampling in Nyquist ranges...yeah nah.
Thanks for another valuable vid, man!
Now, here’s where imperial units get useful! 1ft~1ms - that’s just rad ! (I’m a metric guy)
Now for those who ‘tend to percieve’ 1ms latency, just think of the 1 FOOT 🦶 unit, and why it’s called that way. Most ears are about 2/3 feet apart. So if 1ms latency brings you outta your comfort zone, than a mere 1 foot (not even a step, as it’s a few feet;)) movement or just turning your head onstage would most probably f@#k up your live situation.
ITD - Interaural Time Delay (delay between hearing a sound in each of your ears) is actually a part of how humans process sound localization. Turning your head and hearing an appropriate amount of change in attenuation, phase, and delay between your ears is what doesn't F up your live situation. :)
lol, I made that post to the AxeFx FB group =D
Cats rule, dogs drool, and I can pick up about 3 milliseconds of latency.
I play almost exclusively through plugins with 3 kinds of main tones; aciustic kind of etheral tones with big reverb, solo lead tones and chuggy rhythm tones similar to what Andy James has on his music. My experience there is that about 30-35ms latency starts to become obvious to me. But, I have no problems playing the cleans and leads even with that latency, I don't feel uncomfortable or anything. However, I cannot play rhythm parts when I am able to notice the latency so it has to be below 25ms and even then if I am double tracking it with one channel already recorded then I cannot get a good take on the second one easily. So I have a preset in Reaper for tracking with latency setup under 10ms and I never have problem tracking at that latency, if it sounds off at that point, it's coz I fucked up my part not because of latency.
Great video but... what took you so long? ;-)
Hi Leon Great video and thanks fot it! I need to know something. I have an Axe FX III and when i record with usb in reaper the wave don't align with the grid. I've try to offset the imput in the Daw but another problem happen the latency change... WTF i want to use the axe 3 to record and reamp but with this random latency i can't ! What can i do plz help! Thanks!!
I saw some video where a guy had that problem and they said to turn off software monitoring. Don't know if that helps you at all.
I notice latency when I’m playing call of duty and getting my ass whooped. Maybe I should use analog controllers
Very good info! My understanding of the latency concern seemed to originate from switching presets/channels, not so much from one preset full of FX. I was hoping you could discuss this aspect, and give a demo.
The word latency often gets used in the context but that's not really the right term for it.
That’s called Switching Lag.
It’s a different thing to latency and a necessary evil to some extent.
It’s inherent in some degree on virtually every that has channel switching or program loading.
There are complicated tricks you can do to make it less obvious- using cross fades and bypasses.
But it usually ends up being more work than it’s worth.
Most of us just anticipate the switching lag and then use the flow of the music and a few playing techniques to work around it.
Thanks for your discussion on this. I guess I will figure it out once I receive my first modeler.
How does latency affect your timing practicing and recording in DAW? It was a pretty hot topic in guitar community some time ago, what do you think Leon?
I think there's probably an acceptable range, similar to the 15ms here where I couldn't notice anything, and the "dude I can't do this!" range which I still felt around the 25/35ms mark.
3ms Latency is one meter air distance - if you play with headphones (IEM) or nearfield monitors, latency is not much an issue - often less than an issue because with your amp, you often have 2-3 meter distance to the speakers anyway....it gets quite noticable if you stand 3-4m away from your speakers where you normally get 9-12ms latency and then your digital modeler adds another 10-15ms to it.....for me this can get quite annoying. ;)
i have tried to plug a modeler in a little JBL, aux in, for playing late night… but i figured that i can't play, because latency… i miss rithms… and it is worse for solos… someome know how to measure this latency??
Did it using 2 cables straight out from my guitar using a 6.35 splitter/adapter, one goes through the whole circuit (wireless + Kemper...) and finally the left input of my audio interface. The other cable goes straight into the right channel, and then Ableton. Once recorded in the DAW, it's pretty easy to show up time instead of bars, and then zoom MAX and use some peak as a reference. Even 1 ms is visible, no problem!
i bought a shure glxd14(wireless guitar system)..shure says it has 4ms latency, i cant feel the latency..havnt used it in a gig yet, im worried that id feel the latency when i go a little far from my amp or monitor..but when you said you can play comfortably with 15ms of latency, i felt relieved.. :)
Same system, same result..
@@GDawg2K2 what do you mean?
3ms latency=1meter away from your amp speaker, so 15ms=5 meters away (1meter= 3 feet, roughly, so your rule 1ms=1foot is right). It's like playing in a room and go a little farther to hear your combo amp without being on top of it, or playing live with a band and leave your side of stage to go to the center for a solo. You maybe feel it like your tone has more "space" but it doesn't bother your playing. And, Steve Vai claims that he doesn't play modellers primarly because of the latency and then for not cutting through live (I saw an interview yesterday with Rick Beato). A lot of things are just in our minds like when you take a blind test between a modeller and a real amp, or two amps, you choose differently than when you know which is which, because you want to believe that your preference is better and "Tube amps are better than modellers" and "Expensive amp A is better than cheap amp B". Play without prejudice and like you said: "Be true and say that you don't feel comfortable with it"!
Fact - no one can hear 1ms of latency. They would fail on an A to B listen. Even Steve Via!!!
Did you watched Steve Vai's interview with Rick Beato? He i talking about the "artificial feel" and latency using modelers. What is your opinion on it?
dima golovin I wondered the same thing! I was like come on dawg. Even you can’t detect 1 ms! Lol
@@jacobwhitus3715 I understand that he needs to promote his new gear. But seating with his own ax-fx 2 and telling the audience that modelers have noticeable delay is ridiculous .
L is for Leon who would make a better new crocodile Dundee with that great added in cameo voice .. I am Latently laughing lots..you can use a guitar that looks like an axe 🪓 instead of a croc knife .. that would be a real axe effect... 😊.and many L' s for the likability of lovely likable little Lupin..
KKKKKKK Excelent video man! Latency now a days in digital modeling...it´s bullshit talking! I LIKE DOGS, CATS, amp, digital modeling, analog pedals the hole shit@@@@ Yéahhhh heheheh
Hi, nice video ...as a dj when i scratch vinyls (heavy scratching with DVS , i mean computer processing) with more than 15 ms it SUCKS , i have to adjust the movement of my hands and sometimes i loose my timing. With 10 ms im quite happy. With 6 its very tight, these difference its sometimes noticeable, but doesnt bother. But there is a HUGE difference when i do it with real vinyl (jumping from 12ms to "zero ms"), without any processing involved. Its a lot more precise. Well of course there is aditional latency. These numbers are only references. With digital djing (dvs) if i apply for example a delay (just for tailing :) ) it feels that it adds latency, but the delay cover the mistakes :D. I imagine that for a guitar player thats a very complicted point (to many effects). Well, im assuming that everybody use cabled earphones for monitoring. :D.
That's super interesting! Getting two tracks phase locked with even a few ms latency would be super tricky.
@@LeonTodd Hi, i mean, the latency issues are only for scratching, when only mixing the latency doesnt matter. For example...here im not using headphones and only the visual reference from the waveform and im loosing my timing. Its the same effect when i do have to much latency :D..
th-cam.com/video/iGJIaVmwjQA/w-d-xo.html
If your getting Latency using an Axe fx then you need to upgrade your interface with one that allows you to monitor direct while tracking...
Try tracking and adding a guitar track with a plug-in towards the end of the session .... then you will know what latency really is..lol
I really valued your opinion until i found out that you don't love dogs (This comment is 100% sarcasm BTW)
Daiganzen I unsubscribed when I heard that
It ended my man crush when I heard it.
i use Both Digital (Helix) and Tube amp ( PRS MT15) and i can play with them all with no "latency" feelings...
I'm seriously considering a Helix. Hows that MT15?! I didn't suspect that thing was gonna be such a monster. My jaw dropped after Ola's review
@@cnutella9947 The prs ir a Basic 2 channell so it need some pedals to be Versitile but it's amazing .
The Helix stuff is super good quality too
As soon as I saw this title, I knew it had Steve Vai's comments written all over it! hahaha.
What about Vai's other feelings about modelers - about how they don't sound that great on stage. I assume you have a different experience?
Also, Steve seems to play down his dislike for them when it comes to other people's enjoyment. He doesn't mind other people making music with them.
Honestly, I doubt that Steve Vai has ever even tried the modelers in his own Axe Fx. He's probably thinking about something really old.
Steve Vai is hands down my favorite player ever, but I know he must have known he was setting up some controversy with those comments! hahaha (along with the power amp comments!)
Steve is not only one of the greatest players ever, he seems like a genuinely lovely and frankly inspiring human being. Love him.
Recording electric guitar with logic pro x , 2 to 3 ms can be felt
latency affects performance beyond 1ms. anything over 3ms is audible, 5ms is annoying, 10ms is a serious issue. if you have 2 or more digital elements with A/D D/A convertors, it stacks up. It really depends quality of components and the application. it's not as noticeable playing chords, but the moment you try to play anything faster than a 16th note, articulation becomes a chore. You'd be surprised how fatigued your ear/brain can become if you're playing long sessions through latency above 5-10ms. No performance pedal board should have more than 1-2 digital pedals if they're worried about this.
Hah! Cats! Right on!
[guitarist] I know everything there is to know about everything.
[me] Yeah yeah yeah. Just play some music, would ya?
the latency produced in Analog / Digital converters is as important as Chris states down here. When you use a parallel effect loops in your amp, the AD/DA converters will degrade your sound to shit.
In the other hand the latency produced on digital modelers make me feel the touch and picking on my guitar awful ..there is a good video of Leo Gibson where he put 10 of the best seller modeler to compete on latency, being Boss GT1000 the faster ..
So why is there lag in switching presets and no lag in switching scenes
Wayne Y. Because when you change scenes your only toggling effects on and off. There’s nothing to load.
Ahh, good someone else saw Steve Vai's Pia announcement at namm.. That 1ms thing isn't a good look for Steve.. He lost some cred to me. I've spent 30yr engineering and the best I've ever seen somebody detect is 7-10ms.. In 1ms, sound travels 1ft. think about it.
PS: Did he say he was running through the AxFx2 effects blocks for stereo out? Needless to say they use the same converters with the same latency. AND, Steve uses a wireless sys.. I guarantee, which ever one he's using has at a minimum of a couple ms latency. Add pedals, and there you go. Nice looking gtr though..
GDawg2K2 Thank you for acknowledging that! I’ve been fuming over this. I’ve liked Vai since the “attitude song”. That was a low blow. AxeFxIII is around 2ms. He says I don’t know how anyone can play like that......blah blah He can’t hear or feel 1/1000th of a second
@@diversifiedent Yeah, the sad part is, he knows better.. Btm line, the reason you hear comb filtering & flanging/phasing on
@@GDawg2K2 how the guitar story came out in the end?
>tfw I wanna do the same shit as Leon on my channel but he's a true king who knows fuckin heaps more than me
I just watched some of your vids dude and your stuff is WAY better than when i started doing the YT thing. Keep it up, have fun and let it all flow ;)
@@LeonTodd thanks so much mate - very high praise. It's awesome to see more of us ANZAC's having a red hot go at it.
Is that latency thing is about the vai’s comment about axe on namm?
same thought here. However, could be coincidence
I got sent that video by about a dozen different people yesterday who seemed confused so I figured I'd put this together. Now I'm in the mood to go learn some of his DLR era tunes and have my ass kicked.
@@LeonTodd I saw the very same video and was confuesed about the reaction from the people for instance on facebook. I was curious to see you doing a video and had to look. No discussion here: I totally agree with you (when you were testing the delay, I already knew the line would beginn to blur around 25-30 ms since I knew it from my studies at university already). 1 ms is not within human perception for anything. Having an opionion instead is very well within :D
Last time I was this early my wife got pregnant......
Hope there wasn't any latency in your reaction hen she broke the news.
You knew cos she got period latency?
musanthrope yep. Not enough ram....
You're never going to want to say the word "Latency" again mate 😄
Also, I prefer cats too!
👍🇺🇸❤INTELLIFEX ?????
Steve was just pushing a product. He is a smart man and should have used a different approach.
+1 for cats
You’re heated about this huh? Lol. I think the Axe 3 sounds great, mostly, but I can’t get the response and feel out of it that I can get out of any straight amplifier be it SS or valves, so put that in your latency and smoke it!!
Call it what you want, but don’t act like there’s no real reason for my plight. I wanted so bad for modeling to work with me. I sold all my tube amps to afford this damn shit. I always end up staring at my hands, like, what is the disconnect? Oh, it’s the fucking Axe Fx 3! Even my shittiest SS amp ‘feels’ much better to play. Don’t be mad because we who experience this cannot settle. :P
My point wasn't "you're wrong if you don't enjoy modern digital modellers" it's more like "If you're not enjoying modern digital modellers, then latency is not the reason".
@@LeonTodd I figured and gave you the benefit of the doubt ;)
Oh help me… my axe 3 and fc-12 are boxed up and going away.. 😢 it’s hard, but I think in the end it’s right… I hope we have the time of our lives..
Leon. Just found this vid so please disregard my comment on one of your vids from 2018 lol...
Isn't a tube rectifiers sag latency 😂😂😂😂
Who let the dogs out 😀
Leon,
Maybe you just haven't found the right dog yet :)
Dogs >cats
Dogs certainly exhibit significantly less latency when called to do something.
Cats, dogs, any kind of pets in general > humans
@@LeonTodd You've never owned a Tibetan Mastiff then. Stubborn puppies.
Don't like dogs. I will now unsubscribe.