No Men Like Me: the Jaime Lannister Story
ฝัง
- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 1 ต.ค. 2024
- My special Alisa Patience and I will discuss the ultimate grey character, the golden Jaime Lannister. Need I say more?
Alisa Patience YT channel: / @alisapatience9793
🜏 One-time donation to support: www.paypal.me/...
🜏 Join our Patreon: / lucifermeanslightbringer
🜏 All things Mythical Astronomy: lucifermeansli...
🜏 Teeshirts & Merch: teespring.com/...
Sign up for the Indiegogo mailing list for my upcoming book, "Paradise Gained: Christianity, Sacred Symbolism, and Freedom from Dogma" by David Beers
www.indiegogo....
Cersei's attraction to Jaime is (partly) because she sees her idealized self in him
Jaime's attraction to Brienne: same, but healthy
Basically! Cersei is a narcissist. I am sick of people saying how her best quality is her love for her kids. She is a classic narcissist she sees her children as an extension of herself and is terrible to them when they don't make her look good. Loving them would be respecting them as their own people.
Right. Like Cersei wants to possess his form. Whereas Jaime wishes to embody Brienne’s ideals as she does.
Also, as a parallel to the embodiment of a quality, the Cersei being related to her wished form comes for a instinct to be powerful. She's a powerful and powerless character. There's so many ways to make it a conversation topic.
@@pinkbunny6272 That makes a lot of sense! It is the one of two moment in all of the books when I could relate to her, being raised differently because I am a woman and my brother is a man.
That and the line "Cersei missed the point as she so often did", but in my case it is because I'm autistic in her is because she's, well, kinda dumb.
@@hypatiakovalevskayasklodow9195 I'm also autistic! It comes to me I'm also non binary, so it rings more of a bell than it should. She is a Freudian example of the oh so wrong penis envy.
our shift of understanding about who Jamie is, and his further shift in character as he distances himself from Cersie.........this is some of the best stuff in the books.
"Do you even know what honor is?"
A horse.
"Something brought you here. Fate.. Destiny..."
"A horse"
I think Jamie is a result of a life full of disappointment: he's your typical young guy who believed in the glory and chivalry of the Kingsguard and of battle, only to find out that all he gets to is protect rapists and drunks. Then the one time he actually does something heroic, people hate him for it. Add to that his lover being his sister, and her being promised to another (Rhaegar), and also a father like Tywin who never really acknowledges his son and gives Cersei away to yet another. I would turn pretty cynical about life too.
Cersei was never promised to rhaegar, was she?
I thought aerys refused
I remember Cersi thought she would be married to Rhaegar, Cersi promised herself to him basically;
And that was all ripped away by events when Robert tore onto the scene. The best developed characters are the dead ones with Martin, and the dead charactrs still manipulate and control living characters in ASOIAF.
His story is definitely tragic, not to mention his sister's influence..
I did run across a quote from GRRM about Jaime's redemption and from the sounds of it, GRRM is specifically writing it to be subjective to each character, which is realistic. A collective forgiveness for Jaime is unrealistic. Some people will continue to hate him, some people will never be able to forgive him, some people will only tolerate him, some will begin to see him as a friend or a brother, some will love him, and some will want to wed him. Jaime is already redeemed in Brienne's eyes, but Jaime isn't redeemed in the Blackfish's or Lady Stoneheart's eyes for instance. So Jaime can be seen as someone who is on a redemptive arc or not, depending on the character in the books or the person reading the books. :)
I liked Alissa Patience’s point about Brienne being the first woman like this that Jaime has ever met but want to point out that just as “there are no other men like Jaime” there are no other women like her.
If Jaime joins the Watch, a Jon Snow and Jaime Lannister uneasy alliance where they actually grow to respect each other would be interesting.
Valonqar theory:
Brienne is the younger more beautiful woman (the prophecy didn’t specify she was a queen) and she is actively ‘casting’ Cersei down out of one of the most important positions to her: Jamie’s adoration and devotion. Brienne is already partially fulfilling the prophecy.
What if, eventually when Cersei finds this out, she kills or otherwise maims Brienne, which is the final action that fully severs her from Jaime, and in a rage Jaime kills Cersei? In that way Brienne will be responsible for Cersei losing everything she loves because at that point her kids will almost certainly be dead, and Brienne will be what makes Jaime realise his sister is everything he hates.
Cersei pretty obviously hates women, and a woman who completely destroys the stereotypes she’s been clinging to to survive? Cersei wanted to be a man, or at least masculine, and Brienne represents that she could have been what she wanted had she had a family that loved her and had she not fallen back on an easier, more conventional life. Brienne is everything Cersei wanted to be, a strong, self sufficient warrior woman who appears to be actually earning Jamie’s love, even if it’s more platonic than romantic. Cersei would absolutely not pass up the chance to destroy this monument to her failed dreams, and she’s absolutely the ‘if I can’t have you, no one can’ type
Dope theory
Honestly I think the valonqar theory is like a triple entendre. It's different younger more beautiful women casting her out from different positions she holds dear.
Jaimeslove and adoration is brienne.
The Iron throne- Daenerys/Sansa
Her children's lovr- Margary tyrell
@@aminyapussi4740 perhaps the other queen, the younger woman, and more beautiful woman are all different people, rather than the same one. Other queen = Dany/Sansa, younger queen = Margarey, more beautiful = Brianne?
I see a lot of Freyr and Freya with the twins- golden haired siblings often said to be a couple. Freya had a cat for her symbol, and both were fertility deities. Freyr is also a god of death and rebirth, and gives away his sword to a giant woman he falls in love with because of her strong arms. Freyr had a golden boar for a symbol and was also represented by horses.
Oh okay, wow that's terrific! I'll try to see if I can flesh that out; sounds right on the money!! Especially the giving away his sword to a giantess, that's rich
@@DavidLightbringer it would be so cool to hear you go into that!
@@DavidLightbringer as for freyrs symbol, the golden boar... Isn't there a knight in jaimes group when he leaves for riverrun called "strongboar"?
Jamie and Brienne are 1000% in love. I can’t wait for them to realize it
Red Ronnet Connington was one of Brienne's 3 betrotheds who met her as a young girl and straight up insulted her and broke the betrothal. Hyle Hunt was the instigator of the game with a few other men at Renly's camp. Although I highly suspect Hyle may have been sincere about his liking and wanting to wed her and then was shamed for it by the other men and he stupidly came up with the game instead of admitting the truth. Might be speculation but I felt this may have been the case from the beginning. :)
Oh interesting take, I could see that
You have to look at it from Neds POV not only did Jaime kill the king and sit on the throne Hes a kings guard sitting the throne with his charge dead at his feet meanwhile literally all the other white swords had gone down fighting Barristan being the only one that survived the fighting I think that even takes a toll on Jaime himself definitely a bit of survivors guilt
Alisa looking beautiful like always
"I seldom fling children from towers to improve their health." Gets me every time
So, I think in the case of twin mythos with Jaime and Cersei, if you actually reverse Apollo as the feminine and Artemis as the masculine, it fits really well into Cersei's perspective on how she wishes she had been born a man.
Cersei being Apollo; both are associated with gold/sun/prophecy imagery and both leave a string of damaged or dead women behind them, neither never understanding when to give up.
Jaime being Artemis; both are hunters though in different ways, in a sense he is a virgin as he is only with Cersei who claims that they are one person essentially, and the bath scene works with either Jaime or Brienne being an Artemis blend (maybe in association with their similarities), and he becomes more like her representations like protecting young women I.e. Brienne, Pia
Also, Artemis is a virgin who helped in childbirth in some myths. Jaime fathered three children with his mirror image (himself) but doesn't care for them.
Artemis is the goddess of midwives because as soon as she was born she helped her mother deliver her twin.
@@coyotegaxiola4281 yes, but she is still a virgin. A virgin who helps with birth. This is about symbolism and not context. Being a father of three but not caring can be construed in the negative aspects of Artemis as being a fierce virgin while actively messing with pregnant women in various myths, and not a good way. With the occasion of undoing something cruel Hera did to a pregnant woman.
Yes! (Late to the party, found a HotD postwatch, working backwards...loving both the content and comment community vibes so far and couldn't resist the myth pull.) Springboarding off this and mention of the Ishtar-->Aphrodite/Artemis split, when Jaime ~is left in the Apollo role, Cersei can be read as a dark Aphrodite-then-Venus figure to Brienne's Artemis. Early in her Grecian incarnations, Aphrodite was still venerated as both a love and war goddess (Cythera & Sparta, growing up & expected to wed Rhaegar). Then she reaches Athens, is stripped of her inborn war aspects but associated with Ares and Hephaestus (Jaime and Robert) while bearing various offspring by others. She walks her city as Aphrodite-of-the-People but often characterized as petty, frivolous, etc. Roman syncreticization sees her eventually regain political, warlike aspects, and renews emphasis on her over-protective mother role. Venus was often styled "Mother of Rome, " being the direct ancestress of Rome's mythological founding twins... and Rome's empire (Westeros) eventually falls. She's sometimes correlated with cities and civilization, and her planet is called the Morning Star--the Sun's harbinger and a sort of celestial false twin.
Apollo's true twin Artemis is mythologically younger than Aphrodite and, like Brienne, only seems to've loved two men (albeit in different ways)--Apollo and Orion (Renly, though some traits get juggled between all three). She's one of very few beings who can resist Aphrodite's direct influence and succeeds as a protective force for women and children more often than Aphrodite--especially as Venus--despite never giving birth herself. She's midwife to Apollo's birth; Brienne in a sense midwifes Jaime's narrative rebirth. Personality-wise, she's Apollo's foil on a deeper level while Aphrodite possesses more surface-visible similarities.
Apollo sometimes stables his chariot and rests in a cave at night, either in one of Artemis's groves or near Hades' entrance. Apollo's not usually on the birth certificates of Aphrodite's children, but occasionally he's a possible sire for... the Erotes, I think? Generally as a divine father figure, he's not the worst but he's very absent and seems... hapless? haphazard? when present, which parallels Jaime pretty well.
@@jaythebookfiend1541 🔥🔥🔥🔥🔥 excellent analysis
One has also seen the OSP Aphrodite video 🙏🏾
@@plasmiusphantom Thanks! lmao Yeah, I follow OSP's content about as closely as I do LmL's. They're great!
Love/Hate: The Jaime Lannister Story
"Queen you shall be, the old woman had promised, with her lips still wet and red and glistening, until there comes another, younger and more beautiful, to cast you down and take all that you hold dear." - Cersei III AFFC
*
Maggy the Frog doesn't specify that the YMB person would actually be queen. She only states that someone with cast Cersei down from Queendom. It's a very twisty quote and I have no doubt GRRM worded it that way on purpose to make people believe, and for Cersei, to wrongly believe that this other person is someone who is outwardly, aesthetically beautiful, but that she must be a queen as well, or someone who has a possibility in becoming queen through marriage. When it comes to this prophecy, I throw all of Cersei's suspicions and conclusions about it away. I don't think GRRM would feed the delusions in Cersei's head (which is why I don't believe for a second she and Jaime will die together) so I don't think that the Valonqar is Tyrion, or that this person to cast her down is Queen or is being made future Queen (which tells me it's not Sansa or Margaery), and that this person isn't going to conventionally attractive.
*
However when you look at it from this perspective, the perspective that Jaime is the Valonqar, I believe it makes the most sense for the YMB person to be Brienne. Now by the time Jaime meets back up with Cersei, it's very likely that all of her children will be dead and that she'll have lost the crown to fAegon most likely (I do tend to think Cersei may die by the end of TWOW, clearing the way for Jaime to fight against the Others in ADOS, and possibly leaving Euron as our possible Scourging of the Shire foe), so what would Cersei then consider what's left of everything she holds dear? Jaime. And if by this time Jaime acknowledges and has consummated his relationship with Brienne - possibly even wedded her which is a whole other theory - then Brienne would have technically taken "all that she held dear".
*
I just love this idea because Brienne is connected to beauty all throughout the story. One of her fairy tale motifs is Beauty and the Beast - beauty as in inward beauty - and she is referred to as Brienne the Beauty even though it's mocking. But she is BEAUTIFUL on the inside and Jaime is falling in love with her as he leaves Cersei behind. I find it beautifully poetic and I think it's definitely something GRRM would do. Like I said I don't think GRRM is going to confirm Cersei's own delusions and he has definitely told us not to take the prophecies at face value, so I do think the theory of Brienne being the YMB person and Jaime being the Valonqar is probably going to be correct.
*
Also we must remember that beauty is subjective and prophecy and interpretation of prophecy is tricky. We see for example the Ghost of High Heart who dreams symbolically of animals or house sigils to represent people, and we've seen Targaryen's having similar prophetic dreams. So it's possible that Maggy the Frog saw Brienne's inner beauty reflected on the outside. And even if the YMB person is a queen there is a logical work around for this to plausibly happen. For instance if what we saw in the show happens in the books (Myrcella and Tommen dying and Cersei proclaiming the throne for herself) then that would make Jaime her heir which would mean if she still considered herself Queen at the time of the casting down, then that would make Jaime King in her stead and either Brienne, symbolically or literally Queen (there is a theory I consider in which Braime do wed for a short while before Jaime's death). So yeah while most people are looking at the prophecy literally and think the YMB person is either going to be Sansa, Margaery, Arianne, or Daenerys because they are outwardly beautiful and are/have the potential to be Queens through marriage, a lot of people bypass to me the most logical conclusions - Brienne the Beauty, future lover and possible future wife to Jaime Lannister, the Valonqar.
Thanks for clarifying, and I agree it would make sense to play out that way
It is also the most generic cold reading "prophecy". Maggie flatters Cercei's ego with the queen affirmation, and then mentions a truism, like we everyone gets old and is replaced by the next generation. Poor Maggie, the con artist, didn't realise who she was dealing with though. The fact that this soothsayer telling her she would be queen is a formative moment in Cersei's life says more about Cersei than prophecy.
Hey LML Great live! I know your speciality is myth but I think it would be really interesting to look at characters through the lense of mental health/illness. Jaime being a clear victim of narcissistic abuse, Joffrey-sociopathy, ptsd-everyone lol. If you ever run out of ideas (unlikely), there you go.
Alisa is lovely. Mahalo for your hard work. 🥰
Yea I do tend to take that angle naturally, as I think George is definitely thinking about various mental health issues when he is writing characters. Certainly trauma cycles and all that
@@DavidLightbringer yeah I see you sprinkle it throughout. Helps humanize these characters and it always piques my interests when you elaborate on their humanity and hurt.
Most characters are living with some sort of trauma, whether first hand or otherwise. I don't think it's helpful to diagnose and apply labels though.
Jaime is a compelling Azor Ahai character bc we learn about his grey nature by examining his hypocrisies.
He tells Catlyn that Brandon was like him, then says no man is like him. From this we gather that he is cunning, manipulative, self-aware, yet narcissistic.
He meant that Brandon was hot-headed, impulsive and passionate, like himself and not cold and dutiful like Ned. Narcissists lack empathy, compassion and see other people just as tools to serve them--like Cersei. Jaime is not a narcissist or he would not have saved the capital, Brienne, his captor at that time, would not have genuinely loved his disabled brother Tyrion, etc. He is cunning, self-aware and sometimes manipulative, he was educated by Tywin, after all !
@@lalywindland5764
Exactly. He compared Brandon to himself, knowing how it might affect Cat. Then when Cat says the realm bleeds bc of men like him, he contradicts his earlier statement and says “there are no men like me, only me.”
Narcissism exists on a continuum. You can be narcissistic without specifically being a “narcissist.”
@@careybrooks3072 Every man and woman is unique. And narcissistic personality disorder is not a continuum: you either are a narcissist, or you are not. I've studied about it. There are many kinds of narcissists, but they all lack empathy, compassion, use people like objects and are addicted to narcissistic supply (a type of attention from others that can range from admiration to fear). Jaime has his terrible flaws, but is not a narcissist. Cersei is a narcissistic sociopath.
@@lalywindland5764
You’re corroborating my point. I never called Jaime a narcissist. I said he was narcissistic.
@@lalywindland5764
And you’re wrong in accordance to the DSM5 about narcissism. Narcissism occurs on a continuum or spectrum. Technically, we all have narcissism and to an extent having some is necessary. It’s when you can achieve an extreme abundance /criteria of narcissistic traits that you can be diagnosed having narcissistic personality disorder.
So again I didn’t say Jaime was a narcissist. I said he was narcissistic. Which he was.
As time goes on, I hate S8 more and more
they brought up Jaime 👉↔️👌 Brienne, and I was like, "I don't remember that at all!" and then they brought up how Jaime immediately went, "well, that was fun, but I'm still in love with Cercei, so I'm leaving now. Here's your $20" and I realized that this scene happened after I stopped watching, because once the White Walkers were defeated, I was fucking done.
"Who do you think is going to win the iron throne though?"
"Fucking, I don't care. Harry Strickland. Only one with enough coin to pay back the Iron Bank."
and with the words " Targaryen madness is Maester propaganda" she had earned my subscription, the fact that she was comely had nought to do with it
If you are looking for twin symbolism maybe look at Frey and Freya, often described as twins. Sometimes even called golden twins.
They are twins, the Freys rule.the twins
George plans every single detail i swear. That's why his books take a million years
@@chandlerdoeswhatifs9399 , Loki accused Frey and Freya of having sex, and Frey marries a giantess. It goes on forever.
Artemis is a moon maiden
Damn it, missed it! Shoutouts to my man Goldenhand the Just and Praise be to Garth!
Sacrifice to the algorithm Gods.
Witnessed
Honestly, I think Cercei has Apollo symbolism and Jaime is morphing into Artemis, breaking his reflection and resemblance to Cersei. He is virginal, he hunts, hes starting to defend women.
Yeah someone else pointed that out, that you have gender flip the parallel and then it fits pretty well
It would be really cool if Brienne sacrifices herself heroically in the end of the story, to fight the long night and Jamie ends up as a disgraced, melancholic hedge knight/story teller (he is quite good at it, without even realising it) righting wrongs all over Westeros and Essos, spinnning allegoric tales about the end of the Others and the restoration of seasons, which he obviously took part in (he couldn't have known all these details in his fairy tales if he was just a story teller), but no one thinks to connect him with, because of his new, self-adopted, humble status. A more noble and more talkative man with no name, spaghetti western style. It would symbolically be a reversed Duncan the Tall journey, in order to honor Brienne's memory and nobility. His punishement and calling all wrapped up in one destiny. He could also create affiliations with the Kingswood Brotherhood and, like Lemoncloak, hide his true identity from people outside the Brotherhood. I can see him more like a part-time, reluctant ally of the organisation than anything else.
Wow! I like it!💖
Owning what he did, yes! Jaime was probably overcome with the sheer enormity of what he had done. The King was dead, at his hand, the king he had sworn to protect. In one stroke Jaime had disgraced himself, toppled a dynasty, and utterly and completely done away with all that he held as an ideal.
And yet, the throne did not reject him
I have realised that Jaime Lannister have lot connection with historic figure Cesare Borgia, and his sinister reputation. Maybe fate of Jaime Lannister can be find in life of Cesare Borgia or similarity.
P. S excuses because of English grammar i am Croatian. Love this topic and character of Jaime Lannister.
Tywin is pure, distilled patriarchy.
We need more people like Tywin in the modern world
@@andrewschneider2121 no thanks
The girl u had on gave some interesting input. Wish I could've heard her better.
Ι believe Stoneheart will give Jamie and Brienne a mission to save Sansa and kill Littlefinger. I think all of them need closure, George knows this and that's the only way to do it.
To the Spartans, Aphrodite was absolutely a war goddess!
Hello, Gemini symbolism anyone?! Castor and Pollux are twins with different parents. Their mother, Leda, was seduced/raped by Zeus in swan form and fathered Pollux. Castor is fathered by her husband Tyndareus. They also have a set of twin sisters, Helen (eventually of Troy) by Zeus and Clytemnestra (wife of Agememnon) by Tyndareus. Depending on the version Leda's children were hatched from eggs...Also, the boys do a thing after their death where they alternate between Hades for their mortal half and Olympus for their demi-godness. There's a crud ton of symbolism and Odyssey goodness between all 4 characters. Helen and Clytemnestra are quite fascinating...Clytemnestra is all about thwarting prophecy that her A-hole husband gets rolling by killing a scared stag....the price being her daughter Iphagenia must be scarificed on her wedding day to restore the favor of Artemis, lest Agememnon loose the Trojan war.
If you can tell me how Jaime = Helen of Troy you’re an all star hahaha
@@DavidLightbringer Paris=Brienne as the younger more beautiful queen who steals Helen=Jaime from Menaleus=Cersei. Aphrodite/Venus (Tarth Evenstar bonus connection) being the one who promises Helen to Paris. Gotta love the Iliad.
somewhere around 1:20:00-1:30:00 I want to say, the notion of Cat finding out that the dagger thing was Petyr's lying came up. I mentioned it in the livechat, but I wanted to flesh out this a bit more than live chat would allow, and it would be a large tangent anyways.
Petyr Baelish is seriously out to have Tyrion killed, and the dagger lie was just the first of what we've seen.
I'm sure you've read enough puppetmaster petyr tinfoil to drive you nuts, but when it comes to trying to kill Tyrion, I'm convinced he's pulling strings.
The dagger accusation
The King's Landing riots when Myrcella sent off to Dorne (he has all manner of men who are his who can start this.) Tyrion nearly died in this, but barely escaped. He now has a fabulous reason to stop courting Lollys "raped by half of kings landing" Stokeworth. He can help Cousin Wetnurse Lannister escape and start a new life (there's a theory I read about how he and Lancel were twinned as squires to Robert and, despite how little we know of Wetnurse, we can extrapolate based on Lancel, and anyways he's one of the bodyguards for Petyr now) He may have even further reason for the riot, but he's certainly already got motive.
The purple wedding (see Preston Jacobs videos on this - it assumes the pie was poisoned, not the wine, Petyr's discussion with Sansa in the boat was him doing a cold read, etc.)
The kingsguard who tried to kill Tyrion during the Blackwater Battle. He was brought on by Jon Arryn. You know, husband to the woman who had such a love affair with Petyr that SweetRobin is probably his (unrelated to the Tyrion murder attempts theory) . Petyr mentions how the white cloak can go to his agents' heads.
Penny and Groat were picked by Petyr. They were some sort of provocation, and Joffrey definitely fucked around on that. Penny did try to kill Tyrion when met at Volantis, but that may be a coincidence.
Minor, but Petyr definitely started a new tax on whore houses while Tyrion was Hand and paid for the chain by calling it "the imp's penny tax" or whatever. Smear campaign, minimum. possibly even a potential cover story for an assassination.
I may even be missing some. I don't keep rigorous notes about things like this.
gods, I'm stoned right now. if anything is unclear, let me know and I can either give a more in-depth explanation or direct you to the theory I'm probably referencing.
I was raised by two over bearing "Asshole - ish" parents, so I feel like Ive gotten my wit, and humor as a result of that. Thats why Jaime , and Tyrion are like that imho.
Yeah there is no doubt that Jaime and Brienne is romantic. GRRM isn't exactly being subtle here and he really isn't very subtle when it comes to romantic foreshadowing or overtones. GRRM specifically designed this pairing to a fairy tale couple from Beauty and the Beast, which I think clearly indicates that this relationship will be romantic, especially when the foreshadowing does tell us that when it comes to the subversion of this fairy tale, he isn't messing around and making a romantic story into a platonic story, as the foreshadowing is blatantly romantic.
*
I honestly believe people have such a hard time accepting GRRM's romantic foreshadowing when it comes to Braime is because Brienne is unconventional in every way. She's not ladylike, nor does she look ladylike, and she's not conventionally attractive. I've heard other youtubers saying it's impossible that Braime will happen because Brienne is "ugly". No joke. (I stopped watching this channel after this remark.) I see the same attitude when it comes to the future romantic foreshadowing GRRM has laid down for Arya and Gendry as well, because a few biased characters have called her "horseface" (despite her getting prettier as she gets closer to flowering) and because she's a so-called "tomboy". However these two dynamics have the heaviest romantic foreshadowing in the books out of most of the other characters, and I think it honestly comes down to misogyny and shallowness and thinking that unconventional looking people don't deserve romantic love, and also that anyone labeled a "tomboy" or gender non-conforming automatically means they are either asexual or a lesbian when that is just a generalization (for instance my mother is gnc and not conventionally attractive and had some pretty impressive muscles when she was younger, yet she's the type of person who can't go long without a relationship, has been married twice and has two daughters).
*
So yeah I do believe that a lot of the naysaying when it comes to these two dynamics comes from the fact that these characters are unconventional in looks and behavior, and also in Arya's case, age (which yes, why does she have to be so young?! However precedent tells us GRRM could marry Arya off in TWOW if he so chooses to since she'll be the same age as Sansa was when she was forced to marry, so nothing is impossible when it comes to young age in these books - since there is precedent with Sansa, Dany, and Jeyne Poole. And when I say "marry" I mean I doubt GRRM would have qualms giving a 12-14 year old from the beginning of TWOW to the end of ADOS a love interest.). I mean there are definitely people out there who genuinely don't have a knack for seeing foreshadowing, especially romantic foreshadowing, but I believe there is a lot of willfulness involved because of people not wanting to see it because of the unconventionality of it, despite the fact that GRRM writes his "unconventional" woman as whole characters who are all complex and different. We see Asha, a gnc unmarried warrior woman, yet she's in love with a man she can't/won't marry and is likely pregnant as we speak considering she has quite a bit of pregnancy foreshadowing. We see the Mormont warrior women reject suitors, but still have children. We see Lyanna, the literary mirror of Arya in behavior, morals, and looks, possibly fall in love, marry, and have a baby. We see someone who looks like Arya and who Arya probably would have been very similar to behavior-wise if she had been allowed a few more years of safety and maturity, Alys Karstark, willingly get married. And there is a lot more examples. So GRRM doesn't care if a female character doesn't behave or look conventionally, he's still going to treat them as human beings with their own wants and dislikes. But considering he's going through all the trouble to set these pairings up in a romantic way, it's very likely he does have plans for them to fall in love with their established love interests, whether it be in TWOW with Braime or at the end of ADOS (I'm thinking the epilogue) with Gendrya. But yeah, GRRM isn't being subtle, especially in the case of Braime where their swordfight in ASOS was a metaphorical sex scene LOL. :P
Damn. Now I want popcorn.
People losing their hands in ASOIAF reminds me of Star Wars.
jaime has always had my favorite story arc
I like it that your just you. LML. Yourself. No masks just intelligence:)
To be fair to George with the “It was easy to tell them [Jaime and Tyrion] apart” line, it is from Jon’s perspective who is 16 at the time. As such, Jon’s brain isn’t even fully formed yet.
Could Tywin be SO PISSY, because hes impotent? And is ANGRILY jealous of everyone else who enjoys themselves?
Tyrion found Shey in his bed
@@virginiajames8045 trying doesn't mean succeeding, stop taking vagary as evidence
Aerys thought he would rise from the ashes like a dragon... maybe he actually was getting visions from blood raven and was trying to commit mass blood sacrifice to try and gain the power to destroy the others.
Golden mast wants to go in the sapphire cave...
GRRM LOVES the Beauty and the Beast themes and he's sprinkled them throughout the entire story. Sandor/Sansa (more traditional), Gendry/Arya (slightly inverted), Jaime/Brienne (traditional personality wise and inverted in the physical sense). Jeoffrey/Sansa and Robert/Cersei in the more toxic sense of the word. We also get a lot of Cain Vs. Abel parallels with Gregor/Sandor and Cersei/Jaime.
Jamie is my favorite character- hands down. Nikolaj Coster-Waldau, played him wonderfully in the GoT T.V. series. Jamie is the personification of the classic anti-hero trope and encompasses a perfect redemption arc for a morally grey character turned hero.
This is peak tinfoil but that passage describing Jaime slaying aerys and "the others" and "weeping for mercy" makes me imagine Jaime and Arya will be two of the thirteen companions who go beyond the wall to the heart of winter with Jon, and will kill a bunch of others together
I think Egrite has a closer tie in with Artemis than any other character. Dany has the Goddess of love . Cersei has Hers. Robert = Ares then Dionysus, I could go on but there are greek Mythology tie ins everywhere also Norse, but I'm more familiar with Greek. If Brienne flexed her mind like 70% more she could have Athena. Be well LML
Hey I'm late to the party but I think you were circling around something important with brienne. You say that brienne is not a queen, but there's a lot of language around Jamie referring to him being a king, including when he sits on the iron throne in his technically king for a few minutes if you go by medieval style law. what if the entire imagery around Jamie being a king is actually just to make brienne the younger and more beautiful queen, ie the woman he chooses?
that could work, and actually someone looked up the prophecy and it says something like "Queen you will be until a long comes another more younger and more beautiful" so the new person doesn't have to be a queen
@@DavidLightbringer good point yeah it works even better
What if tywin is infertile and he knew. Would kind of explain his indifference towards his children. Maybe they're all targs. Just a thought.
Think show in the early seasons nodded Jaime wit and then dumped on it by end. It felt Jaime was always smarter and more perceptive than others thought
Gently juxtaposed! Juicy with jangling gems! Jaime gets justly judged in this one, broh!
Hey neighbor! See you next live
@@jalfredprufrock1000 for sure dude! Small world🤙
Looking at the chats, I'm amazed... LML. You have done what so many have tried, and failed.
Left and right, sensitive and stone, hand in hand - merrily, peacefully, discussing who's whose bastard, what the next book, which I still hold hope will come, as George seems to be putting the pedal to the metal lately, will contain, what Euron's hellscape will look like.
We all know that was a time of misogyny, where female "doers" like me, like Arya, and increasingly Sansa, have to hide behind a man and work him to their whims to meet their ends. And people wonder why women evolved with a manipulative streak... I'm not just a woman, but one in some rough physical shape. It's a genetic, degenerative connective tissue disease - not lethal, but painful and debilitating, just in that "A diagnosis comes with a free referral to a grief counselor because you're barely in your 20s and losing your mobility" porridge of the Goldilocks from hell. It'll only ever get worse. My agency in the world is limited to much of what a woman in that time would have been left with, except the Internet exists to help me coordinate. I married a tradesman, advised him to the point that he now makes what he made in a week when we were dating in a single day. I see that and understand the times a bit better. What am I doing, but sending an electronic raven?
If Jaime does come off as more sexist (I need a re-read, but I've been busy with other projects and books.), well, duh, look at his whole family. Cersei is the most misogynist person there, and we know what Tyrion likes in a woman... Himself.
I don't think the brotherhood will need Jamie to enter Riverrun, they have already Simon Seven the Singer inside... and well, their just some weasily Frey's.
Edmure Tully is on the way to a interesting castle, which George R.R. Martin told us we'll get to see in future ice and fire books.
I asked a few times, but I'll ask it here, will we EVER get a "Secret Targ" Stream ... ?
I love how Alisa is eating popcorn like she is watching a movie. Like she is as excited as me to watch the show. Love her👍
She symbolizes all of us watching while eating or choring 😅 but I don't have a sword to match and need to start thinking about getting one
sorry 😊...Athena - the warrior maiden goddess of reason and just war
Wait, Atremis turn her gawker into a stag that his own dogs chase?
Haven't we dogs and stags?
The name of the gawker was Acteon, if you're interested.
@@coyotegaxiola4281 And he was killed by his own host, what an ironic death
Her saying "I gotta be faster because im so short".... My like in a single sentence. ; )
All three Lannister siblings have my favorite POVs. Jaime is my favorite though 🦁❤️. If GRRM ignores his redemption arc and if he doesn’t kill Cersei, I’m going to be super pissed
Ser Jaime had to sacrifice his honor in order to save the realm. We see the very similar decision -- at a very similar stage in life -- later from Jon's perspective when he has to turn his cloak, when he's sent to murder Mance, etc.
The other connection is that it was Ned who judged Jaime and it was Ned whose judgment Jon feared.
Yes there’s a kind of executioner / arm of justice archetype which included both Ned and Ilyn Payne, despite their many differences, so I think George is trying to say something about justice and accountability
@@DavidLightbringer The Father's face is stern and strong,
he sits and judges right from wrong.
He weighs our lives, the short and long,
and loves the little children
I'm not sure that on average, people want the truth. I think they like the feeling of the gamble that they might be right. On Tyrian thriving in captivity- it's also unlike Cersei and Jaime, who both degrade. On twins in Mythology- I thought specifically of Helen of Troy. She was born from an egg that also contained her twin brother Pollux... aaaaaaand there was another egg with their sister, Clytemnestra and Castor. Why two eggs? Helen and Pollux were children of Zeus, and at least semi divine. Clytemnestra and Castor were the children of Leda, the mother, and her ACTUAL husband Tyndareus, king of Sparta.Upon death, Pollux shared his divinity with Castor, and they became the constellation Gemini. There seems to be no special relationship between the two girls. Lastly- Alicia, you're freaking adorable
TYWIN is GOD ,Tywin is FUCKING BATMAN the Westeros!!!!No, it was just Taena anyway.
Jaime is the only Lannister who transforms throughout the series. Cersei, Tyrion, and even Tywin are static characters in the novel. Hearing you read the Baths scene.
It's so easy to be seduced by GRRM's world. Hearing the scene read aloud was a treat.
Enjoyed yours and Alisa's analysis made a verrry long week of no heat, no water, and praying the power would hold while teaching Beijing hours seem so inconsequential.
Brienne was not what he expected. The more he denied it, he was not only attracted to but forced to face some ugly truths about himself. Self-loathing drove Jaime for so long and truly respected her. Thank you for continuing to create such intriguing content. I am looking forward to rereading the series. As soon as I finish my 5th journey to the Dark Tower with my favorite iconic character... Roland of Gilead, of the line of Eld. There are other worlds than this...
We always forget that Jaimie is a character that refused The Ring😊 Together with Ned...Which other character would do the same...???
I'm late but.. show Jamie also said 'I _ his throat to make sure he was gone'.
You're right, in complete shock at what he had done. His brain was on catch up. Probably sat in the chair to mentally take note that, 'if I'm sitting here, he's definitely gone. It's really over. Phew!'
I just want to thank David and everybody for helping answer my question about twins! I don't know much about biblical mythology and the Jacob and Esau story connection was great!
For being an SJW, you sure sounded smooth when you quoted Jamie saying the gamer word 🤣😆!
i sadly missed this when you did the original stream. it's awesome. your content is the best youtube has to offer
I always catch the show after work! Red wine and Skyrim in the background!
I love me some Jamie Lannister
Cerci was prepared to do and did cunning and violent things like her father but she was never educated to do it well. The fact she was only treated as a brood mare and not respected is the source of her crazy bitterness and why her ego in overdrive makes her make mistakes. Any of the male characters are as treacherous and violent as she but they don't get hated for it.
Two hour stream? Hell yeah!
Really sweet jacket, by the way.
Great stream guys! I think Jaime getting out of the cave alive will have something to do with Rhollor. If he chooses trial by combat, it would be be cool if he died down there and was brought back by the red god. Premium tin foil, I know but I highly doubt he is going to be able to convince anyone in that cave with words that he is a good man now, they all have lots of reason to despise him, its a tricky situation and like Alisa says it makes narrative sense for LSH to want to kill Jaime, but it also makes sense they all live.
in sparta Afrodite kept her war association. And venus was definitely a war goddess. At least as far as I know
I love having the Gigachad Meme-Template explain mythical astronomy to me.
2:01:46 he wasn’t, he was one of her 3 betrothed, met her and called her ugly after giving her a rose and left, this was before the bet and before she ever met renly
Yes, Cersei is definitely a comment on internalized misogyny. But I also think we should expand on that by realizing she is more specifically a comment on Toxic Femininity. People always talk about how GRRM analyses Toxic Masculinity and having male character deal with it and start to break away from that (most specifically with Jaime and Sandor), but I think Toxic Femininity is something that GRRM also analysis throughout the story.
I think the Lannisters - LAN THE CLEVER- are a symbol of Hermes. Always the wright HAND of ZEUS - the Targaryens. And Tyrion is Pan- which is the son of Hermes .
Idk if this would fall into the twin category but Janus the roman god i think he has some cool parallels with jamie and cersei and other characters since his 2 heads represents two sides of things
Its great to find someone who hates that malicious spiteful jerk Tywin as much as I do.
Jaime also parallels Tyr in that Tyr is the god of the sword and honor duels.
Jaime, the golden boy. Oh my, this livestream was great. I can't wait for the symbolism livestream
Was a realy good stream just finished it :) Was nice to see some inside into Jaime and to see the perspective that Katlyn isn't always only working with 2 brain cells. Tbh the Rob being Brandens bastard thing would make more sense then one and done weding night boom a son. But also Kat and Ned seem to be paticuly fertile. And weddings would be timed to a woman's fertility cycle to ensure quick conception.
It seems pretty clear that GRRM intended for Jaime to be a villain (the end boss, IMO) of ASOIAF when he wrote AGOT. He changed his mind later and then had to retcon a reason that Jaime was obviously evil in the first book. So there's a limit to intellectual gymnastics we need to do to justify his behaviour.
I feel like it’s obvious he’s a villain who will turn good from the start since he is the only one who cares about Tyrion.
You giving up and saying "well he's just a hack retconning everything" is peak lazy bullshit and people like you should keep it to yourself
my only complaint is that now that I'm actively following your channel, and have cleared much of the stream backlog, I actually have to wait for the next one!!
that's a lot of back material! My thanks, glad you are digging it :)
Simply awesome. Thank you :)
Around the 53 minutes mark, you discuss a conversation between Catelyn Stark and Jaime. The fact that there is a bit of attractions there on Catelyn's part is interesting. Contrast that with the meeting between Ned Stark and Cersei Lannister in the first book. There is a bit of that kind of tension there also.
I’m looking forward to the Sunday stream. I’d love to see you make some short video primers to real world mythology tropes/characters
I believe that Tyrion is Tywin's only son, because in Daenerys first chapter Allyrio tells Daenerys that she is the daughter to the new . So Cersii and Jaime are half bother and sister to Daenerys. Also in the Riverlands when Jaime talking to his aunt she tells him that he is not Tywins son but Tyrion was. Which I believe would be bout right since Tywin denies him everythingand says that he wasn't his son and Jaime is his choice the perfect son. Like Tyrion always saying. The Golden son. So it will make a great story line and Tywin always saying ur not my son but in all actual allity he is his only son. That would be fitting for ASOIAF. Parallels to Bael the Bards story that Yegrit told Jon Snow in a way. The son killed his father not knowing ans Tyrion hills his father but hnew. But Tywin didn't think Tyrion was his instead. But got to wait to find out truth though which sucks. I hope George hurry and get 'er done soon. Anyways bro, love you content. You really put your all into it. Awesome, great work. When will your booh that your writing be finished?
Loved this. Are there other streams with Alisa Patience?
Yeah, a few. I need to have her back on
1:12:40 the Ned Robert Love Connection again!!
So many great ideas put forward in this one & it was a lot of fun to boot? 😄
Solid 5⭐ review from me xx
Woohoo! I'm very excited for this. Great content!
Doing the video with a Lannister! 🤩🥳
Always great to see Alisa! Everyone should check out her channel.
Thank you guys! ❤
I guess when you do a Jamie livestream it's apt to have a Gwendolyn Christie lookalike on (that's a compliment to Alisa!). Fun stream!
I see it
Weekdays are workdays for me but I'll always make time for the replay.