This really helps. Hard to tell what is just him playing different (not intentionally, just natural difference). The Kemper definitely sounds the most similar. The Tone X next. The Quad cortex sounds like a different amp. The Helix sounded really good. Probably my 2nd favorite after the Kemper. But it does sound even dirtier.
Thanks, makes it's easier to listen/compare quickly side by side. So much for the Kemper being old technology. 🙂 I'm bias but it still sounds best to me.
I think as you say when guitar is heard mixed in a band or a recording with other instruments the difference will be really hard to notice. I’m the bass player vocalist in our band and the two guitarists switched to Kemper years ago. Was and still is an absolute blessing. No more heavy temperamental valve amps to lug about but the massive difference is the out of front PA sound. I get a stereo feed from them. No fiddling with miked up amps etc. There Kempers are set so I get the same volume sent to the desk gig after gig and set in such a way that if they sneak there back line up it doesn’t go up in the front of house mix which it would do if they had a cab miked up. We have a consistent sound now. Oh and the Kempers sound great too
Between the Kemper, QC, and the ToneX, I preferred the ToneX on the first comparison. I have an HX Stomp, so was a bit disappointed that the Helix in the comparisons had about twice as much gain, and I couldn't determine how much it would clean up. The Modelers are so good, that differences in tone and feel are probably within the range of what we can easily adjust on the settings or as players. We are lucky to have access to such awesome gear, and I appreciate you taking the time to make these videos that look into whether or not there are any meaningful differences in tone and feel between Amps and Modelers. 😎
As a long time Trainwreck user, I really enjoyed this video. I bought into TONEX (both app and now the pedal) strictly for the idea of capturing the tone and dynamics of one - as tests I ran on lesser amps suggested we "might be there." I haven't been able to work with the Ken Fischer Wreck to test the dynamics and tonal qualities yet (soon), but so thankful you have made and shared a JM made wreck and focused on some of the things that actually matter - not just the distortion/harmonic content but how it "feels" and responds to both picking dynamics and response to volumne/tone knobs on the instrument. This is the kind of content that is next level, most people that haven't played through one won't really fully appreciate this. Subscribed.
There have been double blind videos between modelers and real tube amps , and the folks kept picking the kemper. Its an anderton's video somewhere. The person playing the guitar had to judge based on listening to it mic'd up if it was an amp or modeler.
How does it feel when playing it depends how the guitarist is monitoring their digital box. The only true test for a Kemper is plugging a Kemper Poweramp into a cabinet and plugging the Profiled tube amp into the same cabinet. th-cam.com/video/INJ_H5PiuTE/w-d-xo.html
Completely agree with HW's conclusion at the end: in a complete mix, most people couldn't tell one from the other and they all sound good. The biggest difference for me was the Tonex had a delay on - that was the most noticeable difference. That and the Helix had more gain. Everything else sounded very similar. Great vid, HW!
@@AA-ih6kt I suppose that’s true! Although when I had my OG HD500, I could definitely hear the difference when playing. I need to go back and compare some old recordings with more recent ones. I would think that I could hear the difference but at a certain point gain is just gain
I think that the main thing is the following: The difference in tone for the end listener is minimal and I think only noticeable under a one to one comparison. HOWEVER, what I always experienced is a way more noticeable feeling and response underneath your fingers. Tube amps have a more ''natural'' way of cleaning up and sensitivity to the touch that in my experience provides a much more enjoyable experience and also sometimes helps you deliver better, if you can control that. Modelers and alike surely have their use and incredible pros, but everytime I miss that feeling and I go back to valves everytime I have the chance. EDIT: I didn't finish hearing your considerations before commenting; in the end, you said exactly what I said. Thanks for confirming that.
I found the same thing comparing my QC to my Hind Wired ODS clone when switching positions on my 4 position Tele. It does a good enough job cleaning up with the pickup and volume change.
Haha I love how it all circles back to us saying “what’s it even matter in the long run”. I’ve come to so much terms with how convenient the Helix is for me for my band and for worship music. IT WORKS, IT SOUNDS GREAT, and NOONE will know the difference! 😎🤪
Cool video On 1st watch I think the real amp is more expressive and picks up some of the nuances the best. That said they are all quite usable and if I was blindfolded I am not sure I could pick out the real amp from the modelers all the time. We really have an embarrassment of riches with all this cool and very usable modeling tech these days.
I’m no Dave Grissom, but I’ve found mid gain sounds to be that one thing that is ever so slightly better on proper amps than modellers when I compare them myself. Like you said, I don’t think I could tell without a direct AB comparison!
I read somewhere that our human eyes are geared for finding snakes and spiders over everything else in the natural world. That's why I loved the Spider III half stack so much? LOL! Sounded great bro!
@@simon_patterson I think we were both Joking around, I know I was, with the Splawn amplifiers SNAKE SKIN covering, ever see one of those? Think the 1st one I saw was 2005ish. Of course Martini of RATT had the snake skin Guitar back in the 80s. I almost stepped on a Snake then saw him moving away from me. I know a friend who worked actually 2 friends both doing survey type work, and they always had to wear Snake Boots, one told me he walked calmly thru 2 or 3 rattlers when he was on a job. The high boots would have protected him, so he was not worried. I tested the saying they are more afraid of you then you of them, I saw a non Poisonous one about a year back come out of High Brush he was headed sort of toward me, I ran at him, boy did he light out back to the Tall Brush.
Surprised with some of the comments. They all sounded a bit different. Kemper with the noticeable mid hump. Both the QC and Tonex appeared to have less gain, and were a touch flatter. This wasn't noticable with my tonex captures.
Didn't doubt ToneX and QC for a second being able to get the compressed amp being controlled by the pick attack thing. The QC does have a tendency to become a bit more dynamic than the reference tone, but it can be dialed in to be reaaaly close. Nice tones!
@@MrRafaztar For my main guitar and the preset i played around last few 2 days, around 200k gave a really pleasant low gain. Like - it had the same amaount of gain,same sustain at first, but shorter, which works great. And for default 1M or boost to 10M imp , it feels like more gain ( with 10M) but longer sustain, more saturated, but still feels like the same preset. Something that i very very hard get with lets say, changeing amp settings or compressors. Its a great little thing to add to the tools id say.
Hi I am a Bass player, and use to be sound (now SW) engineer (still do some mixing for others on top of my stuff, at my home studio) so me perspective, is a little diff. I have just received my Tonex pedal yesterday , but I'm using the software since the week it came out, I also played a little with a friend's CQ, My main unit (that the Tonex is connected to it's FX loop) is Boss GTCore, the ONLY unit that gives me a response of a real tube AMP finger/slap/tap/comping(not full chords), nothing comes close (especially when using built-in amps/cabs), to my great surprise - when I just connected the Tonex directly to my interface, responsiveness was very disappointing (It was more then OK, but much less than the GTC that I'm used to), but as soon as I connected it to the loop of the GTC, I got it back (while using the Tonex as my only amp/cab in the chain). I think in this case it's more related to the unit's internal converters, not sure, just a hinge, because my interface is RME, when I use the software, the converters are probably better than even GT ones, it (the Tonex) also holds Low B and even detuned to A ( I was just experiencing, never played so low in real life I rather play Upright Bass), which QC did in some cases, In Tonex, it did on all the captures I tried (about 20 so far), Kemper doesn't even get a D tune on 4stg on mid-high gain, for the QC we did try to use our own captures, so we can verify the original amp. holds those low notes (not surprisingly most vintage tube amps DON"T get that low because there were no 5/6 string basses in the 60's). Anyway as you mention. if we remove the Kemper (which IMO is a bed modeler for guitar as well in 2023, I can in many cases recognize Kemper in the mix, and as good as it can sound, as your video and other proves, it's a good sound from the "family" of the tone you were capturing, but not close enough to the one, don't know about responsiveness, since the mids issue is a total breaker for bass amp modeling (Thanks god for Tonex mid freq. set option. which I didn't need to use yet, but good to know it's there), I rather use SansAmp and go direct, even if I could get a Kemper in SansAmp price!!!!. The Boss units (the full GT or the core), are some of the best units on the market, the FX are better then ALL the other all-in-1 units IMO, we can argue about the Amp modeling but GT (core or 1000) + Tonex (or even 2 for stereo) is still < QC, most of the YT guitar channels seems to ignore it, don't really understand why. A disclaimers 1. GT/C is not exactly a modeler, as is doesn't try to model any specific amp, but give you a few very good digital amps, and very well established FX (you can hate Bose, but their pedals made a lot of history, for many years, so it's a great tool to create great tones - Since when getting the "Best" tone stooped being our holy grail, and we started to want to sound like a Vox30 from 68, but defiantly not from 67 (I bet the 68 don't sound like it did back then, but that's a different story). Who gives a s**t. it can sound bed/good/wow/'my life will never be the same' who cares how you got there (other than for reproducing this amazing sound). 2. Kemper was a revolutionary unit 12 or so years ago when it was created (guitar models were very usable but not accurate), and (I hope) all you guitar fanatics acknowledge that modeling Bass amps is actually more complex (few physical issues, that just makes it harder), so the technology was not there yet - In 21st century tech, 12 years is an era.
They all sound great, but instead of buying profiles, captures, snapshots, I buy tube amps. And when it comes to gain stacking, boosting, compressing with great overdrive or distortion pedals, then the real magic just begins. I have an Axe-Fx III and a Kemper Profiler by the way - they are great tools for sure. But since I mostly play tube amps, the comparison question or does it sound like thing is no longer an issue for me - I focus more on playing guitar and let the tubes and guitar cabinets massage my soul, without asking me for updates.
I don't have a modeler, so I can't speak to that side of things. I'm sure you're right about just how good they are. I have a 5e3 clone with master volume and the negative feedback mod and just by turning 4 knobs and one switch, I can get a huge range of tones from clean to fully saturated, fat to thin, all sorts of eq combinations. Tube amps have their obvious downsides and I'm sure I will try a modeler before too long, but all the sounds from my amp are so musical. The overtones are extremely rich. It has a kind of natural tremelo to it. I don't know what it is, but it sounds like the overtones are pulsating just slightly.
ROTFLMBFAO! Most comments I read are responding to the video title. Folks, LISTEN please! Listen again! Go back to -2:00, listen to ToneJunkie, and listen again!
Morning HW, i commented on this in an earlier post on my own experience with effects in the ToneX and hear it now in your video too: if the delay settings were the same in all examples: the delay in the Tonex was way more noticeable to me. What was your experience there?
All the effects were from different sources and I just sort of matched them quickly by ear so the levels are all over the place. In this video the ToneX is paired with HX stomp. The input of the ToneX may make delays and reverbs feel hotter though, I haven’t really tested it.
Finally, someone has inadvertently nailed the issue I have playing hollowbodies and semi-hollows with PAFS through a Helix, and just about any post sixties tube amps have the same issue. They won't clean up but create harsh, trebley ice picks that can't be smoothed out. I'm sold on the Trainwreck's real touch sensitivity.
The tones you created with your PRS from 0:0 - 2:26 can all be done using a good analogue solid state amp. The level of bass and treble may not exactly match, but the ability to clean up using just the guitar volume is certainly possible. However, i do agree that it is much more difficult for a modelling unit (computer based amp) to do.
I think you turn up the compressor in the amp section it easily is. To the kemper example cleans up as well as the tube amp but maybe the clean has slightly less volume than the tube amp. I’ll still take the kemper and the compressor control in the amp section.
ToneX and the the Line6 seem to have the most pleasing harmonics, but how do they feel? 😂 the dynamics and clarity on the kemper and Cortex are very vivid, but the high end crispies sounds more brittle to my ears. Edit to say the guitars definitely bring the most change to the table from what it sounds like. I enjoyed the suhr on the cortex, more so than the real amplifier in that particular part
Great comparison. I wonder, when doing a comparison like this… could you put a looper at the very front of your signal chain that way when switching between the different amps and modelers and such you are getting the exact same signal and depth and force of attack going into each? I feel like unintentionally when you hear with one it not giving you quite the sound you want you may attack a little harder to push it there or a little lighter to dial it back there. It would be interesting if you looped the initial dry signal into each of these amps and modelers to see truly the difference in sound. I have a feeling (though I could be wrong), it would be a little more noticeable of a difference. What do you think?
Hi HW. I'm just curious if any of the guitars you used in the video have a "tone bleed" on the volume control as I think that would make a difference in your comparison when you roll back the volume, particularly on the (very nice!) Suhr strat you were playing. I've just discovered and subscribed to your channel, so this is the first and only video of yours that I've seen......yet.
HW ... I picked up a ToneX pedal .. I cannot figure out how to configure download presets from tonex and export them into amplitude ... And how to upload them to the tonex pedal
do you now that "laser beam effect" on a cracked Plexi, when you palm mute a chord and let ir ring? Peter thorn talks about it on a video... The Helix model does it, but Tonex doesn't seem to do it :/ advice?
Depends on the way they're wired, and the direction the magnet poles face. Stratocasters were designed with 3-position switches, and it was only by accident that positions 2 and 4 were found. Depending on how the pickup magnets were put in, some of these early guitars had that noticeable Strat sound that we call "out of phase", while others didn't. Later on, this was done intentionally so they all had the Strat sound. More recently, they've fitted reverse wound/reverse polarity middle pickups, which to me sound less authentic in parallel with the neck or bridge pickup, but which have the advantage of being hum-cancelling.
To my mind, at least as long as it's about making art, "Does it sound/feel the same" will always be a bad question, in line with: "guess which one is the"real" [insert too expensive piece of gear]". The only thing I care about is: "which sounds or feels _better"_
The UA Ruby does this easily and authentically. It's a remarkable thing but not a surprise. It's sound is very sensitive to the strength of the current from the guitar's pickups, which, of course, can be altered by touch. Also, as you mentioned, all of this microscopic solo listening in isolation is of little practical use. Tiny differences stick way out in this kind of test for the reasons you said, but how something sounds in a band mix is what counts. In that situation many differences once clearly heard simply disappear. Also, almost needless to say, as Trainwreck's cost from mid/low to high $30K for Express' and Liverpools and a Rocket lists for over $40k, to be able to get this close with pedal is a no brainer decision. Along with a modeling pedal's ability to get a great sound even at a low volume, which most tube amps cannot do, recent amp modelers are making real amps obsolete and impractical.
I have a tone-snob aversion to all things digital, and would never consider using a modeller. I have a Fender BDR tube amp that I can set to go from clean to dirty just with pick attack. That said, I also have a Boss Blues Driver pedal and Marshall solid state amp (analogue in each case), both of which can be set to do the same thing. Easier with the Boss pedal than the Marshall amp, due to its built-in compression.
On the first test, your own admission, you tone matched the amp too hot for the helix. Additionally, your tone match technique adds an extra element. Maybe use just the Trainwreck Express model. That said, I think Helix, of all the modellers, not profilers/capture, is the least proficient at this. Though Firmware 3.5 did help a lot. And even then, it's pretty good, depending on the amp model. What you didn't test, that imhe is as good as any tube amp, is the Axe FX. including the response feel. Just got the Tonex, so I'm still experimenting. But, I agree on the feel thing so far with the Tonex. Part of it is it's longer than others latency, Where this is experience more, and the modellers are lacking is when you go into the cheaper range of gear. But even that is getting so close. I am still amaed at how good the Line6 Catalyst is at EOB settings.
Great video man! not good for helix. But it's a reality, i've had helix for 4 years now. Tonex for 2 months and it's sound so mutch better for me. It sounds and feels like my amps. I don't feel i'm missing something anymore
Maybe not the same but being able to switch to whatever profile you like kinda makes this redundant anyway. I do find my Kemper more than touch sensitive enough with 5e3 profile overdriven im able to roll of or just pick lightly and get clean. I will say right down the base of the volume it does feel a bit strange, could have been the noise gate screwing with things though.
ken fischer was the only amp maker ever to use the best vintage tubes for each position in the amp, he often used a mullard at v1 amperex at v2 and philips miniwatt at v3 along with brimar el 84 power tubes. even if you get the best holy grail vintage amp like marshall fender or vox with the original rca's or mullards you will always get the same tube in all positions of the preamp they used what they had,and it's true about all the components in the amp. he was at the highest degree, like dumbell of picking components for their tone .they both had amazing ears and were extremely devoted, building themselves 100% one amp at a time. dumbell would ask guitar players to come to him with their guitar and he would measure it's tone, response and build an amp around that, no builder today does that they would go out of business, every amp took months ,capturing that tone and getting so close so easily is a moral sin the guy had epoxy on the circuit so no one can copy his design and now what? any kid can have a sample ... one of the reasons that modelers are so popular is that common tube amps suck, if people had trainwrecks they wouldn't think about modelers. most people go from a stock blues jr or a hotrod to a modeler, that's an upgrade .
Is the "feel" difference between the pedal and the amp better or just different? What is the benefit of the "feel" difference between the pedal and the amp if the answer is yes?
In the mix, even guitar players can't tell the difference with today's modelling tech. Alone, if you pay close attention you can hear some differences but at the end of the end it is very minimal at this point in time. We came a long way from the Line6 red bean.
excellent video, and thank you for delving into this. The difference you notice in feel as you play with the tube amp is something I notice too (as opposed to the Kemper -- the Kemper sounds the same but it doesn't feel the same). There's just no way around that, but really the Kemper (which I use) and these others are great tools, and you've just shown that.
Let's be fair to the Helix here - even though you "tone matched" the mode to the amp you have, the custom IR is still a static EQ, so won't be affected by playing dynamics. In order to *accurately* judge how well the Helix does, you would really need to compare it to the actual Trainwreck Express "Ingrid" that Line 6 used to create the Helix model, because you may find it is absolutely on the money. The other platforms are all "modelling" the real Trainwreck you have, so I would definitely expect them to be close.
Agree 100%. Re-test the Helix without the IR . Use the Trainwreck amp and cab already in the Helix since it's not a capture device and the modeling algorithm is very different. I've heard many say the Helix amps clean up very nicely. Invalid test
Hey, Trying to make up my mind and take the plunge into the digital world. It seems to me that the Kemper sounded the best out of the modelers presented in this demo. It is the oldest tech, will I make a mistake in buying a Kemper? Thanks, Eyal HW, please advise to a noob in the digital world 😁
For playing live it doesn’t matter. For making TH-cam videos it doesn’t matter. For making professional recordings in a studio it matters. For playing in the room through a real amp it matters to me. I can’t stand playing through headphones or little studio monitors. There’s something magical about playing through a tube amp at reasonable volumes… the feedback, the low end thump, everything. I’m sure I could record better tones at home through any of these modelers than my amps, but the modelers don’t make me want to play them the way my amps do.
To my ears, the Kemper sounded the closest to the amp. The QC seemed to have a lot less gain than the real thing. THe ToneX also had less gain. The HX had more gain, and somehow seemed a little woolier or more muffled. Are the differences between the 3 Profilers inherent to those profilers? Or was there a difference in capturing that could have caused that?
Yes, there is no modeler being so shining and shimmering as your Trainwreck in this competition. I may imagine that when you played the modelers you felt in your fingers the difference of the sound. Thank you very much for your video, my compliment!
Grasshooper you might be the tone Junkie but im the Tone Master. Ive had tube amps for decades and all this digital stuff is swell but i cant do it it just is a little scratchy. i mean ok im wrong and i dont know what im talking about digital dudes. I know what sounds good and i was getting good tones out of the 80s and 90s shoebox amps or Fender solid state by technique and knwoing when to lay of the distortion. I dont hear anything here that works for me. I will never go to kempers or all this stuff until it really sounds and plays as well and to my ear no it does not. DO ANY OF THE OLD LEGENDS GET INTO ALL THIS STUFF? I mean keep trying but its still not there but thats just my ear and im not an expert in the digital world but the ear test is all i need.
I haven't seen a modeler do feedback either. I wouldn't be too hard to program. Just set feedback after a certain gain is reached. Or have a feedback parameter to set separately.
As a synth guy I only can say that digital and modeling is to stay. Focus on something that sounds nice instead of a 101 recreation... Got a cheap guitar and tube amp as a multi fx and it sounds pretty impressive to my ear.
No matter what guitar or pickup, Kemper cleans up the best after the real deal for me... Tonex is in 2nd position in most cases though. As for Helix, overdriven tones are great but cleans are dreadful...
The only problem I have with this is the title. Profilers like the Kemper are not modelers. To me, mixing both digital technologies is like mixing tube and transistor amps. No one in their right mind would do that.
The more we say real amps don’t sound close to modelers-the more we will buy stuff from TJ and other creators 😊Because we still have hope that the modelers can sound closer and closer to original amps 😂😂
All digital captures sound different from each other, and all sound a bit different from the amp. Digital images of the amp are good enough to have fun and play in any situation, but the real amp is different, I am wondering the player feeling in the run. I love my hx stomp to learn and practicing at low volumes but still prefer my real amps for rearshalls and most gigs.
Oh wow, the Cortex seems to sound really washy and weak in direct comparison. I don't know, if I would prefer the Kemper or the ToneX. Both sound very different but both aren't bad. The Helix sounds horrible to me.
TW Dirty: 1:21
TW Clean: 1:41
Kemper Dirty: 2:05
Kemper clean: 2:29
Cortex dirty 2:45
Cortex clean 3:07
ToneX dirty: 3:28
ToneX clean: 3:40
Helix dirty: 4:08
Helix clean: 4:22
This really helps. Hard to tell what is just him playing different (not intentionally, just natural difference).
The Kemper definitely sounds the most similar. The Tone X next. The Quad cortex sounds like a different amp.
The Helix sounded really good. Probably my 2nd favorite after the Kemper. But it does sound even dirtier.
Thanks, makes it's easier to listen/compare quickly side by side.
So much for the Kemper being old technology. 🙂
I'm bias but it still sounds best to me.
I think as you say when guitar is heard mixed in a band or a recording with other instruments the difference will be really hard to notice. I’m the bass player vocalist in our band and the two guitarists switched to Kemper years ago. Was and still is an absolute blessing. No more heavy temperamental valve amps to lug about but the massive difference is the out of front PA sound. I get a stereo feed from them. No fiddling with miked up amps etc. There Kempers are set so I get the same volume sent to the desk gig after gig and set in such a way that if they sneak there back line up it doesn’t go up in the front of house mix which it would do if they had a cab miked up. We have a consistent sound now. Oh and the Kempers sound great too
Between the Kemper, QC, and the ToneX, I preferred the ToneX on the first comparison. I have an HX Stomp, so was a bit disappointed that the Helix in the comparisons had about twice as much gain, and I couldn't determine how much it would clean up.
The Modelers are so good, that differences in tone and feel are probably within the range of what we can easily adjust on the settings or as players. We are lucky to have access to such awesome gear, and I appreciate you taking the time to make these videos that look into whether or not there are any meaningful differences in tone and feel between Amps and Modelers. 😎
As a long time Trainwreck user, I really enjoyed this video. I bought into TONEX (both app and now the pedal) strictly for the idea of capturing the tone and dynamics of one - as tests I ran on lesser amps suggested we "might be there." I haven't been able to work with the Ken Fischer Wreck to test the dynamics and tonal qualities yet (soon), but so thankful you have made and shared a JM made wreck and focused on some of the things that actually matter - not just the distortion/harmonic content but how it "feels" and responds to both picking dynamics and response to volumne/tone knobs on the instrument. This is the kind of content that is next level, most people that haven't played through one won't really fully appreciate this. Subscribed.
Thanks dude!
There have been double blind videos between modelers and real tube amps , and the folks kept picking the kemper. Its an anderton's video somewhere. The person playing the guitar had to judge based on listening to it mic'd up if it was an amp or modeler.
th-cam.com/video/INJ_H5PiuTE/w-d-xo.html
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Agree. especialy In a mix were there. Maybe the player will be able to "feel" a difference. But the listener wont be able to tell.
How does it feel when playing it depends how the guitarist is monitoring their digital box.
The only true test for a Kemper is plugging a Kemper Poweramp into a cabinet and plugging the Profiled tube amp into the same cabinet.
th-cam.com/video/INJ_H5PiuTE/w-d-xo.html
Why does the tonex sound best at a fraction of the cost
I liked the end of the video with the accomplishment face
Completely agree with HW's conclusion at the end: in a complete mix, most people couldn't tell one from the other and they all sound good. The biggest difference for me was the Tonex had a delay on - that was the most noticeable difference. That and the Helix had more gain. Everything else sounded very similar. Great vid, HW!
even with a 400.00 mx5..or an hd500 or old pod in a mix cant tell-so he should say no need to spend 1600.00 or more on a new modeler.
@@AA-ih6kt I suppose that’s true! Although when I had my OG HD500, I could definitely hear the difference when playing. I need to go back and compare some old recordings with more recent ones. I would think that I could hear the difference but at a certain point gain is just gain
What no fractal... Smh!
I think that the main thing is the following:
The difference in tone for the end listener is minimal and I think only noticeable under a one to one comparison.
HOWEVER, what I always experienced is a way more noticeable feeling and response underneath your fingers. Tube amps have a more ''natural'' way of cleaning up and sensitivity to the touch that in my experience provides a much more enjoyable experience and also sometimes helps you deliver better, if you can control that.
Modelers and alike surely have their use and incredible pros, but everytime I miss that feeling and I go back to valves everytime I have the chance.
EDIT: I didn't finish hearing your considerations before commenting; in the end, you said exactly what I said. Thanks for confirming that.
I found the same thing comparing my QC to my Hind Wired ODS clone when switching positions on my 4 position Tele. It does a good enough job cleaning up with the pickup and volume change.
"We're there" was worth the whole video. Thanks for this.
Glad you enjoyed it!
Haha I love how it all circles back to us saying “what’s it even matter in the long run”. I’ve come to so much terms with how convenient the Helix is for me for my band and for worship music. IT WORKS, IT SOUNDS GREAT, and NOONE will know the difference! 😎🤪
Hard to judge over youtube audio, maybe Tone X cleans up the best, but Kemper/Quad are very close. Helix trails behind.
Cool video
On 1st watch I think the real amp is more expressive and picks up some of the nuances the best.
That said they are all quite usable and if I was blindfolded I am not sure I could pick out the real amp from the modelers all the time.
We really have an embarrassment of riches with all this cool and very usable modeling tech these days.
And figure if you were gigging with it, you might use at max 15 to 20 presets/captures at most. We got a FLOOD of STUFF.
I’m no Dave Grissom, but I’ve found mid gain sounds to be that one thing that is ever so slightly better on proper amps than modellers when I compare them myself. Like you said, I don’t think I could tell without a direct AB comparison!
Kemper sounds a fair bit better to my ears!
Tonex sounds awesome❤ great job
I read somewhere that our human eyes are geared for finding snakes and spiders over everything else in the natural world. That's why I loved the Spider III half stack so much? LOL! Sounded great bro!
Or the Snakeskin SPLAWN's . LOL.
@@simon_patterson I think we were both Joking around, I know I was, with the Splawn amplifiers SNAKE SKIN covering, ever see one of those? Think the 1st one I saw was 2005ish. Of course Martini of RATT had the snake skin Guitar back in the 80s. I almost stepped on a Snake then saw him moving away from me. I know a friend who worked actually 2 friends both doing survey type work, and they always had to wear Snake Boots, one told me he walked calmly thru 2 or 3 rattlers when he was on a job. The high boots would have protected him, so he was not worried. I tested the saying they are more afraid of you then you of them, I saw a non Poisonous one about a year back come out of High Brush he was headed sort of toward me, I ran at him, boy did he light out back to the Tall Brush.
I have trouble with this with my Kemper BUT my Positive Grid Spark does this super well.
Surprised with some of the comments. They all sounded a bit different. Kemper with the noticeable mid hump. Both the QC and Tonex appeared to have less gain, and were a touch flatter. This wasn't noticable with my tonex captures.
The amount of extra gain in the Helix sample prevented me from judging how sensitive and dynamic it can be.
Didn't doubt ToneX and QC for a second being able to get the compressed amp being controlled by the pick attack thing. The QC does have a tendency to become a bit more dynamic than the reference tone, but it can be dialed in to be reaaaly close. Nice tones!
Hey, I have seen your profile pic in the Tonex app, thanks for the captures!
I found that impedance does wonders for that "cleaning up " thing btw ;D
@@cechichan more or less impedance?
@@MrRafaztar For my main guitar and the preset i played around last few 2 days, around 200k gave a really pleasant low gain. Like - it had the same amaount of gain,same sustain at first, but shorter, which works great. And for default 1M or boost to 10M imp , it feels like more gain ( with 10M) but longer sustain, more saturated, but still feels like the same preset. Something that i very very hard get with lets say, changeing amp settings or compressors. Its a great little thing to add to the tools id say.
Hi I am a Bass player, and use to be sound (now SW) engineer (still do some mixing for others on top of my stuff, at my home studio) so me perspective, is a little diff. I have just received my Tonex pedal yesterday , but I'm using the software since the week it came out, I also played a little with a friend's CQ, My main unit (that the Tonex is connected to it's FX loop) is Boss GTCore, the ONLY unit that gives me a response of a real tube AMP finger/slap/tap/comping(not full chords), nothing comes close (especially when using built-in amps/cabs), to my great surprise - when I just connected the Tonex directly to my interface, responsiveness was very disappointing (It was more then OK, but much less than the GTC that I'm used to), but as soon as I connected it to the loop of the GTC, I got it back (while using the Tonex as my only amp/cab in the chain).
I think in this case it's more related to the unit's internal converters, not sure, just a hinge, because my interface is RME, when I use the software, the converters are probably better than even GT ones, it (the Tonex) also holds Low B and even detuned to A ( I was just experiencing, never played so low in real life I rather play Upright Bass), which QC did in some cases, In Tonex, it did on all the captures I tried (about 20 so far), Kemper doesn't even get a D tune on 4stg on mid-high gain, for the QC we did try to use our own captures, so we can verify the original amp. holds those low notes (not surprisingly most vintage tube amps DON"T get that low because there were no 5/6 string basses in the 60's).
Anyway as you mention. if we remove the Kemper (which IMO is a bed modeler for guitar as well in 2023, I can in many cases recognize Kemper in the mix, and as good as it can sound, as your video and other proves, it's a good sound from the "family" of the tone you were capturing, but not close enough to the one, don't know about responsiveness, since the mids issue is a total breaker for bass amp modeling (Thanks god for Tonex mid freq. set option. which I didn't need to use yet, but good to know it's there), I rather use SansAmp and go direct, even if I could get a Kemper in SansAmp price!!!!.
The Boss units (the full GT or the core), are some of the best units on the market, the FX are better then ALL the other all-in-1 units IMO, we can argue about the Amp modeling but GT (core or 1000) + Tonex (or even 2 for stereo) is still < QC, most of the YT guitar channels seems to ignore it, don't really understand why.
A disclaimers
1. GT/C is not exactly a modeler, as is doesn't try to model any specific amp, but give you a few very good digital amps, and very well established FX (you can hate Bose, but their pedals made a lot of history, for many years, so it's a great tool to create great tones - Since when getting the "Best" tone stooped being our holy grail, and we started to want to sound like a Vox30 from 68, but defiantly not from 67 (I bet the 68 don't sound like it did back then, but that's a different story). Who gives a s**t. it can sound bed/good/wow/'my life will never be the same' who cares how you got there (other than for reproducing this amazing sound).
2. Kemper was a revolutionary unit 12 or so years ago when it was created (guitar models were very usable but not accurate), and (I hope) all you guitar fanatics acknowledge that modeling Bass amps is actually more complex (few physical issues, that just makes it harder), so the technology was not there yet - In 21st century tech, 12 years is an era.
You should try this blindfolded and rate them by feel as well :)
They all sound great, but instead of buying profiles, captures, snapshots, I buy tube amps. And when it comes to gain stacking, boosting, compressing with great overdrive or distortion pedals, then the real magic just begins. I have an Axe-Fx III and a Kemper Profiler by the way - they are great tools for sure. But since I mostly play tube amps, the comparison question or does it sound like thing is no longer an issue for me - I focus more on playing guitar and let the tubes and guitar cabinets massage my soul, without asking me for updates.
Walter Trout said on 'Anderton's Captain Meets':
"I ain't use pedalboard. I just plug my guitar into my amp, that's all" 🙂
@@Robert_Fordin Yes, but there's no good or bad - its about what you personally prefer.
ToneX so good
I don't have a modeler, so I can't speak to that side of things. I'm sure you're right about just how good they are. I have a 5e3 clone with master volume and the negative feedback mod and just by turning 4 knobs and one switch, I can get a huge range of tones from clean to fully saturated, fat to thin, all sorts of eq combinations. Tube amps have their obvious downsides and I'm sure I will try a modeler before too long, but all the sounds from my amp are so musical. The overtones are extremely rich. It has a kind of natural tremelo to it. I don't know what it is, but it sounds like the overtones are pulsating just slightly.
4&5 are in phase. 😉
The one thing that amps can’t do is morph into other amp types. Some want more than one sound.
i agree.
This kind of article misses the point.
Oh neat. I saw that one on reverb a little while ago!
ROTFLMBFAO! Most comments I read are responding to the video title. Folks, LISTEN please! Listen again! Go back to -2:00, listen to ToneJunkie, and listen again!
Morning HW, i commented on this in an earlier post on my own experience with effects in the ToneX and hear it now in your video too: if the delay settings were the same in all examples: the delay in the Tonex was way more noticeable to me. What was your experience there?
All the effects were from different sources and I just sort of matched them quickly by ear so the levels are all over the place. In this video the ToneX is paired with HX stomp.
The input of the ToneX may make delays and reverbs feel hotter though, I haven’t really tested it.
Wow the tone x sounds so spot on it almost hurts
Finally, someone has inadvertently nailed the issue I have playing hollowbodies and semi-hollows with PAFS through a Helix, and just about any post sixties tube amps have the same issue. They won't clean up but create harsh, trebley ice picks that can't be smoothed out. I'm sold on the Trainwreck's real touch sensitivity.
The High Gain stuff did that in the Old Vox Tonelab/valvetronix modellers. The older amps were gold though.
The tones you created with your PRS from 0:0 - 2:26 can all be done using a good analogue solid state amp. The level of bass and treble may not exactly match, but the ability to clean up using just the guitar volume is certainly possible. However, i do agree that it is much more difficult for a modelling unit (computer based amp) to do.
Remember when HW said kemper is more sensitive than the real amp?
Pepperidge farm remembers...
I think you turn up the compressor in the amp section it easily is. To the kemper example cleans up as well as the tube amp but maybe the clean has slightly less volume than the tube amp.
I’ll still take the kemper and the compressor control in the amp section.
@@ToneJunkieTV good to know! thanks for responding! :)
ToneX and the the Line6 seem to have the most pleasing harmonics, but how do they feel? 😂 the dynamics and clarity on the kemper and Cortex are very vivid, but the high end crispies sounds more brittle to my ears. Edit to say the guitars definitely bring the most change to the table from what it sounds like. I enjoyed the suhr on the cortex, more so than the real amplifier in that particular part
Great comparison. I wonder, when doing a comparison like this… could you put a looper at the very front of your signal chain that way when switching between the different amps and modelers and such you are getting the exact same signal and depth and force of attack going into each? I feel like unintentionally when you hear with one it not giving you quite the sound you want you may attack a little harder to push it there or a little lighter to dial it back there. It would be interesting if you looped the initial dry signal into each of these amps and modelers to see truly the difference in sound. I have a feeling (though I could be wrong), it would be a little more noticeable of a difference. What do you think?
I wish I hadn't sold my JM Trainwreck.
I have no quibbles or quarrels with my Helix Lt, I love it! Btw, cool playing!
Hi HW. I'm just curious if any of the guitars you used in the video have a "tone bleed" on the volume control as I think that would make a difference in your comparison when you roll back the volume, particularly on the (very nice!) Suhr strat you were playing. I've just discovered and subscribed to your channel, so this is the first and only video of yours that I've seen......yet.
Are we there yet?
A very simple test to compare and contrast modelers vs. the real thing: Note decay.
That's exactly what I also said in detail in my post here.
would be cool to have the hughes&kettner black spirit 200 in the list of tested amps here as well.
ToneX is the clear winner here again ❤❤❤
HW ... I picked up a ToneX pedal .. I cannot figure out how to configure download presets from tonex and export them into amplitude ... And how to upload them to the tonex pedal
do you now that "laser beam effect" on a cracked Plexi, when you palm mute a chord and let ir ring? Peter thorn talks about it on a video... The Helix model does it, but Tonex doesn't seem to do it :/ advice?
modeler into rackmount tube amp. best of both worlds
Helix can do that -- I do it all the time, all my presets "clean up"
Preach H.W!
position 4 is not out of phase -- it's 2 pickups in parallel.
Depends on the way they're wired, and the direction the magnet poles face. Stratocasters were designed with 3-position switches, and it was only by accident that positions 2 and 4 were found. Depending on how the pickup magnets were put in, some of these early guitars had that noticeable Strat sound that we call "out of phase", while others didn't. Later on, this was done intentionally so they all had the Strat sound. More recently, they've fitted reverse wound/reverse polarity middle pickups, which to me sound less authentic in parallel with the neck or bridge pickup, but which have the advantage of being hum-cancelling.
Great Stuff! Good Job!
To my mind, at least as long as it's about making art, "Does it sound/feel the same" will always be a bad question, in line with: "guess which one is the"real" [insert too expensive piece of gear]". The only thing I care about is: "which sounds or feels _better"_
The UA Ruby does this easily and authentically. It's a remarkable thing but not a surprise. It's sound is very sensitive to the strength of the current from the guitar's pickups, which, of course, can be altered by touch.
Also, as you mentioned, all of this microscopic solo listening in isolation is of little practical use. Tiny differences stick way out in this kind of test for the reasons you said, but how something sounds in a band mix is what counts. In that situation many differences once clearly heard simply disappear.
Also, almost needless to say, as Trainwreck's cost from mid/low to high $30K for Express' and Liverpools and a Rocket lists for over $40k, to be able to get this close with pedal is a no brainer decision.
Along with a modeling pedal's ability to get a great sound even at a low volume, which most tube amps cannot do, recent amp modelers are making real amps obsolete and impractical.
I have a tone-snob aversion to all things digital, and would never consider using a modeller. I have a Fender BDR tube amp that I can set to go from clean to dirty just with pick attack. That said, I also have a Boss Blues Driver pedal and Marshall solid state amp (analogue in each case), both of which can be set to do the same thing. Easier with the Boss pedal than the Marshall amp, due to its built-in compression.
On the first test, your own admission, you tone matched the amp too hot for the helix. Additionally, your tone match technique adds an extra element. Maybe use just the Trainwreck Express model. That said, I think Helix, of all the modellers, not profilers/capture, is the least proficient at this. Though Firmware 3.5 did help a lot. And even then, it's pretty good, depending on the amp model. What you didn't test, that imhe is as good as any tube amp, is the Axe FX. including the response feel. Just got the Tonex, so I'm still experimenting. But, I agree on the feel thing so far with the Tonex. Part of it is it's longer than others latency,
Where this is experience more, and the modellers are lacking is when you go into the cheaper range of gear. But even that is getting so close. I am still amaed at how good the Line6 Catalyst is at EOB settings.
Great video man! not good for helix. But it's a reality, i've had helix for 4 years now. Tonex for 2 months and it's sound so mutch better for me. It sounds and feels like my amps. I don't feel i'm missing something anymore
Maybe not the same but being able to switch to whatever profile you like kinda makes this redundant anyway. I do find my Kemper more than touch sensitive enough with 5e3 profile overdriven im able to roll of or just pick lightly and get clean. I will say right down the base of the volume it does feel a bit strange, could have been the noise gate screwing with things though.
ken fischer was the only amp maker ever to use the best vintage tubes for each position in the amp, he often used a mullard at v1 amperex at v2 and philips miniwatt at v3 along with brimar el 84 power tubes. even if you get the best holy grail vintage amp like marshall fender or vox with the original rca's or mullards you will always get the same tube in all positions of the preamp they used what they had,and it's true about all the components in the amp. he was at the highest degree, like dumbell of picking components for their tone .they both had amazing ears and were extremely devoted, building themselves 100% one amp at a time. dumbell would ask guitar players to come to him with their guitar and he would measure it's tone, response and build an amp around that, no builder today does that they would go out of business, every amp took months ,capturing that tone and getting so close so easily is a moral sin the guy had epoxy on the circuit so no one can copy his design and now what? any kid can have a sample ...
one of the reasons that modelers are so popular is that common tube amps suck, if people had trainwrecks they wouldn't think about modelers. most people go from a stock blues jr or a hotrod to a modeler, that's an upgrade .
Is the "feel" difference between the pedal and the amp better or just different? What is the benefit of the "feel" difference between the pedal and the amp if the answer is yes?
In the mix, even guitar players can't tell the difference with today's modelling tech. Alone, if you pay close attention you can hear some differences but at the end of the end it is very minimal at this point in time. We came a long way from the Line6 red bean.
HW Please do this with an AC30TB. Thank you!
Great video.....#truth
excellent video, and thank you for delving into this. The difference you notice in feel as you play with the tube amp is something I notice too (as opposed to the Kemper -- the Kemper sounds the same but it doesn't feel the same). There's just no way around that, but really the Kemper (which I use) and these others are great tools, and you've just shown that.
Well said!
Let's be fair to the Helix here - even though you "tone matched" the mode to the amp you have, the custom IR is still a static EQ, so won't be affected by playing dynamics.
In order to *accurately* judge how well the Helix does, you would really need to compare it to the actual Trainwreck Express "Ingrid" that Line 6 used to create the Helix model, because you may find it is absolutely on the money.
The other platforms are all "modelling" the real Trainwreck you have, so I would definitely expect them to be close.
Agree 100%. Re-test the Helix without the IR . Use the Trainwreck amp and cab already in the Helix since it's not a capture device and the modeling algorithm is very different. I've heard many say the Helix amps clean up very nicely. Invalid test
Hey,
Trying to make up my mind and take the plunge into the digital world.
It seems to me that the Kemper sounded the best out of the modelers presented in this demo.
It is the oldest tech, will I make a mistake in buying a Kemper?
Thanks,
Eyal
HW, please advise to a noob in the digital world 😁
... nice video ... which modell did you use in the helix?
Thank you
For playing live it doesn’t matter. For making TH-cam videos it doesn’t matter. For making professional recordings in a studio it matters. For playing in the room through a real amp it matters to me. I can’t stand playing through headphones or little studio monitors. There’s something magical about playing through a tube amp at reasonable volumes… the feedback, the low end thump, everything. I’m sure I could record better tones at home through any of these modelers than my amps, but the modelers don’t make me want to play them the way my amps do.
Custom Shop PRS McCarty? Cool.
This is an impedence thing. I think the kemper stage has a different setting that changes the input. I wonder what that sounds like.
Oh, yeah, Tonex captures the feel. Kemper does well, but some of the feel isn't there....in my experience.
HW is right in his explanation
To my ears, the Kemper sounded the closest to the amp. The QC seemed to have a lot less gain than the real thing. THe ToneX also had less gain. The HX had more gain, and somehow seemed a little woolier or more muffled. Are the differences between the 3 Profilers inherent to those profilers? Or was there a difference in capturing that could have caused that?
You should also do wine reviews.
😂 maybe combined wine and pedal reviews?
no vid cana show dynamics and feel to the and for the player.
My name is Anthony Rivers, and I could tell no difference through my cell phone speakers, ‘cept for the difference in effects
What speakers do you use with the express? Do you use an attenuator?
Sold my Kemper today 🥲
get tone x?
TONEX sounded the closest.
So you didn’t try a Fractal that has the model of the Trainwreck?
Yes, there is no modeler being so shining and shimmering as your Trainwreck in this competition. I may imagine that when you played the modelers you felt in your fingers the difference of the sound. Thank you very much for your video, my compliment!
Another thing they can do is cause a slipped disk trying to get the amp and cab up a frozen unlit iron set of stairs at the back of a club.
Grasshooper you might be the tone Junkie but im the Tone Master. Ive had tube amps for decades and all this digital stuff is swell but i cant do it it just is a little scratchy. i mean ok im wrong and i dont know what im talking about digital dudes. I know what sounds good and i was getting good tones out of the 80s and 90s shoebox amps or Fender solid state by technique and knwoing when to lay of the distortion. I dont hear anything here that works for me. I will never go to kempers or all this stuff until it really sounds and plays as well and to my ear no it does not. DO ANY OF THE OLD LEGENDS GET INTO ALL THIS STUFF? I mean keep trying but its still not there but thats just my ear and im not an expert in the digital world but the ear test is all i need.
.The ONLY thing modelers can’t do is get all that mojo of a real Trainwreck blazing behind you - badass factor is just unfair!
16:45 Spot on!
i respond to my guitar and hate playing on modellers when playing in a room. thats the difference. play a real amp in a room tubes or not.
I haven't seen a modeler do feedback either. I wouldn't be too hard to program. Just set feedback after a certain gain is reached. Or have a feedback parameter to set separately.
As a synth guy I only can say that digital and modeling is to stay. Focus on something that sounds nice instead of a 101 recreation... Got a cheap guitar and tube amp as a multi fx and it sounds pretty impressive to my ear.
Negligible differences in tone!
No matter what guitar or pickup, Kemper cleans up the best after the real deal for me... Tonex is in 2nd position in most cases though. As for Helix, overdriven tones are great but cleans are dreadful...
The only problem I have with this is the title. Profilers like the Kemper are not modelers. To me, mixing both digital technologies is like mixing tube and transistor amps. No one in their right mind would do that.
Yeah, can't easily say there's a significant difference in inherent quality between them.
They sound fine. The line6 is different, but it too sounds fine...I want to play them... edge of break-up, quality sounds
The more we say real amps don’t sound close to modelers-the more we will buy stuff from TJ and other creators 😊Because we still have hope that the modelers can sound closer and closer to original amps 😂😂
how are we hearing that trainwreck amp ? .... did you mic it or is it some kind of speaker sim?
All digital captures sound different from each other, and all sound a bit different from the amp. Digital images of the amp are good enough to have fun and play in any situation, but the real amp is different, I am wondering the player feeling in the run. I love my hx stomp to learn and practicing at low volumes but still prefer my real amps for rearshalls and most gigs.
I thought the Rockies were a whole lot rockier….
Oh wow, the Cortex seems to sound really washy and weak in direct comparison. I don't know, if I would prefer the Kemper or the ToneX. Both sound very different but both aren't bad. The Helix sounds horrible to me.