28:50, oh wow, I always play Sonic alone, and I don't think I'd seen the new transition as Tails by himself yet, so I had no idea about that homage to the OVA!
I think the opposite. If they make a sequel "too soon" it would devalue the impact of Mania. I feel we need a good 3D Sonic or a different style of 2D Sonic. Pandering to nostalgia can backfire and hold back the potential of the franchise.
Listening to his boundless optimism at the end while watching Stealth's kickstarter faceplant and his sad video about how little he ended up getting paid for mania, 2 years out with no formal announcement for a Mania follow-up... once again SEGA is throwing away a good thing for seemingly no reason.
There's something to be said about the hidden level entrances. Like imagine if you were able to choose which version of Mirage Saloon Act 1 you can go to depending on which exit you took. Personally I'd like to see a hybrid of Mario's hidden level exits and Star Fox's alternate paths. Just think of how much replay value you can get from that honestly.
This is golden! Sonic and Star Fox 64 have exactly the same kind of replayability, branching pathways could be a great way to reward more curious players with more game to play, instead of just a powerup.
You know it also be nice of them to use golden axe example of multiple level exit. where you can take the other exits will lead you to a different level then your last play thre. so that way you have your own personal route. . Heck they can take from the game gear levels and make them as a additonal level set for both sets of island.
You know there was a 3D Sonic Game where the path you chose determined your next stage, unfortunately people seem to hate that game for some reason. It's called Shadow the Hedgehog & it's epic. We're hoping Mania was some of the light at the end of Sonic's Darkage that started in 2010.
@@WaterKirby1994 That's because Shadow the Hedgehog controlled poorly and had visuals and music that are bland as shit. And because the Last Story was locked behind finishing all 10 Pathways which is just garbage. Sonic Heroes did that first and nobody liked it then so it boggles my mind that Shadow the Hedgehog did it worse.
Fun fact: Hyper Sonic was actually planned for the game. This can be seen in the files, where active Super Emerald sprites, the word "Hyper," and some other stuff can be found. But then Sega was like, "No no, that's not gonna happen." It's unfortunate, really. I'm working on modding some of this stuff back into the game.
I remember playing this the day it came out, and thinking, "Oh man, this game's pretty good!" And then I got to the Mean Bean Machine/Puyo Puyo boss and I laughed to myself and thought "Screw that, this is the BEST GAME EVER!"
I really hope we get a mania sequel soon. If that team got the opportunity to make a completely original sonic game with no old levels and brand new concepts I think we could have the best sonic game since generations.
I'm so glad you went into depth on your philosophy on speedrunning for Sonic. Sonic always felt conducive to multiple playthroughs for the sake of discovery rather than the sake of mastery, for me at least. This was at its best in Sonic 3 pre-& Knuckles, where there were mystery walls you'd wonder what to do with and then AW SHIT IT'S DAT FIGHTIN' FREAK KNUCKLES BUSTIN' DOWN ALL THE WALLS NEW LEVEL AREA LIKE WHOA SON, but it's done really nicely in Mania, and you show it really well. It's not even something that routing-focused games like, say, Donkey Kong 64 have to deal with, glitches aside - you're already picking up all the stuff and exploring every nook and cranny in one go anyway, so getting your bearings and routing is just a lot easier naturally. Sonic is a lot of dedication and a LOT of repeat playthroughs, and the frustration of learning that is prrrobably why it's not as popular of a speed game as, say, the Donkey Kong Countries, or even the Sonic Adventure games. This makes a really solid case for Plus, at least, being an evolution of the concept (adding the Mario World cape kinda helps). I really appreciate your breakdown of the closed vs open design. It's something I'd always felt, and the exploration-based side of me always worked against. I found myself actually dying by time in Flying Battery and the like, trying to go against the more linear routes... and then having to backtrack when I realized that I'd gone completely backwards. Having it set like this makes it far less frustrating. It doesn't entirely warm me to the levels, but then again I'm one of those people who really loves Sandopolis Act 2 for its linearity and timing-based challenges, so that could just be a bit of personal preference. You've done a ton of maturing just through the process of doing these videos. Seeing your take on Sonic evolve until it's achieved this final state of reflection in this video, using all the previous retrospectives to build upon what's shared in this one. Whilst I didn't get the same itch to replay Mania again and again like you did, I did thoroughly enjoy my playthrough of it, and found just messing with the world to be entirely engrossing. If I were the same kind of player I was as a kid, I would've totally explored every inch and fallen absolutely in love with it, and this definitely helps me see that. Insofar as the narrative stuff goes, I... don't really see why we couldn't just use the Phantom Ruby as a terraformer or something akin to a philosopher's stone rather than "it can do anything and everything". Just having it amass pieces of the various islands and Little Planet around itself, restoring them to Eggman's original designs whilst he also builds newer zones and items around them - that feels like a far stronger narrative pull, for me, than just "it does whatever, congratulations you were just teleported... MAYBE back in time I don't know?" It frustrates me that Sonic Colors pulled this off almost thoughtlessly, yet Mania feels very slapdash in its integration. I dunno, I just feel that there was SOME solution that obviously wasn't prioritized, but coulda been. But then I'm thinking deep into the lore of Sonic at this point so perhaps I should just stop here.
To say Sonic Mania’s special stages have the best music is not only 100% correct but not a small plus. It’s a huge plus. The jump in quality in these stages from every other Sonic game ever to Mania is incredible and yes they’re by far the best. And please never badmouth Puyo Puyo ever again! That boss fight was awesome!
"characters with unique abilities like shadow" God, could you imagine Shadow in the classic style? He would somehow look more and less edgy, like he's trying even harder. It'd be so great.
I was wondering why this is now my favorite "Classic" Sonic game. It's VERY consistent. Sonic 1-3 as much as I like them have obnoxious flaws that prevent me from goign back to them as much as I'd like.
Great analysis; one of Mania's greatest strengths has been trimming the fat with slow paced waiting sections and making the sense of flow organic. In regards to forward thinking design this game is rife with, I think the additions via the Plus DLC demonstrated two major things. First that Sonic games can still mix it up in terms of character abilities without changing the gameplay style or seeming out of place. Sonic Advance did some interesting stuff with Amy and Cream, but the former felt awkward at points and latter broke the game's difficulty a lot. Ray and Mighty not only feel completely natural in 2D Sonic levels, they're also balanced in design. Mighty can't chain speed like Sonic or explore like the others, but he's ideal against enemies and hazards. Ray requires precise use and is nerfed underwater, yet is to the air what Sonic is on land. Secondly, the Encore Mode has introduced a great layer of strategy to the series. While a lot of the player thinking in Sonic titles before have involved devising methods to reach paths or ideas on how to beat bosses, the characters as lives system now creates an inventive to really consider how you go about a stage. Do you use Ray to keep your pace in the level, or Knuckles as a meat shield in case tough sections might catch you by surprise? For a series that's unfairly lambasted as being speeding left to right through levels, its a concept that rewards decision making and smart selection from the player's proverbial toolbox.
I do agree with your complaints about the story Not just the issues with heavy king and Eggman But just the entire hard boiled heavy crew just seem to disappear, with only the heavy magician getting some sort of explanation in encore mode And then there is encore mode, it makes no sense at all, story wise. I would had rather that there be no boss fights than all the bosses repeating themselves Also the opening cutscene of encore mode You see the heavy king holding the phantom ruby in angel island, but in green hill it is back in the rock the ruby was initially in? It makes no sense
Encore Mode was solely a way to introduce 2 old school characters into Classic-style Sonic ganes, and does literally nothing of value in terms of story.
I suppose that, story wise, one could maybe imply that they're not trying to do the same thing again, but rather, they rewinded time, hence why they're doing the same thing again, but with a twist.
"This is the part where I thank a lot of people that give me money" Dear lord that made me hysterical. Not just because of that sentence but the way you said it in a greedy-like voice was perfect.
I didn't think encore mode was supposed to be set after Forces. My immediate assumption when I played the DLC was that it was supposed to be an alternate story about what happened to Sonic after the Super Sonic fight, where Mania Adventures was the actual post Forces story. I've never looked for any statement made by the creative team, but that was just my interpretation. Also, I'm so glad you talked about this game. This was a fantastic video
This is like the 8th video I've seen reviewing mania that ends with "I can't wait for that sequel! it's gonna be great!", and every time it makes me fucking cry.
Phantom Ruby Story and old stages were brought only because the team didn't had enough people and time, so they couldn't make more original zones. SEGA didn't liked the idea of game having only 5 zones, so they said "rehash old zones and connect to our new project or sumthin".
Thank you. …I know that is an older video by now; I just would like to touch on a few points. - I appreciate your having categorized the levels between Open and Closed; I’m a person who primarily prefers linear, structured platforming levels, which I think is why I’ve had some difficulty with getting into classic Sonic before. - …Piggybacking off of the previous bullet; I can safely say that I generally prefer the Closed stages with a more focused pathway, rather than what I feel is confusing, overwhelming openness, but that’s just me. - I appreciate that you mentioned the Mania animations and agree with you- there’s so much more appeal to their characteristics and narrative, rather than the more grotesque facade that the recent 3D titles have displayed.
I never really thought of difficulty curves within individual stages, but Mario's ability to ease players into upcoming challenges puts it into context. Definitely agree with the story being lackluster. I always found it funny that you're hopping back and forth between Angel Island and Little Planet. I'm not against bi-plane stages in 2D Sonic, but when the enemies are literally just recolors of Sky Chase's enemies, it's pretty insulting. All in all while I respect the team's ability to capture what worked in the classic games, there's a little too much nostalgia in there, in a time when nostalgia is becoming overbearing. It doesn't really take what made classic Sonic gameplay work and expand on it in a fresh new way, but simply a step backwards to point out what worked in those 20 year old games that Sonic 4 failed to replicate.
It actually very much expanded and improved upon the originals, everything sonic mania did was much much better than the originals and all the new stuff is just a testimate to how truly unique this game is. Aesthetically they look the same as they did, but in terms of the actual stuff you do in these levels and the new interactive gimmicks that serve as either something fun to look at or something to make sonic move even faster than usual, there's a lot here that's so new you can't recognize what it is anymore and the stages have their own identity.
"Sega would be crazy not to make a sequel." Sadly I read an article this week that sounds like Sega pretty much fired the studio who created Sonica Mania over creative differences over Sonic Mania 2.
@@bls8959 For real I think that's true. It's pretty telling that the most criticial and commercial successful Sonic game was basically an official fan game. And the "official" Sonic game after it was panned by both fans and critics.
both, because you're just making this comment for odd reasons , sega made good decisions in the past and you are making it look like it never happened once
@@mbdg6810 yeah like the great decision of declining Sony's offers after Nintendo turned them down and arrogantly ignoring Sega of America's efforts due to that branch being more succesful than Japan's, which resulted in all those Sega Genesis Life Support add-ons which plummeted the Saturn's sales. Great decisions, indeed.
being a dick doesn't prove anything. I didn't say overall they made good decisions I'm saying there are some that have been made, for one allowing christian whitehead to make a sonic game was a good decision and not taking down fan games unlike Nintendo. now they may not relate to any of the subject but acting like they have NEVER made good decisions (which is equal to ZERO) is just dumb
@@mbdg6810 I know that, just messing around a bit. Though I definitely agree that SEGA has made some good moves, most of these have been recent, far later than when SEGA was a top dog. When making good decisions mattered most, they took some abysmal, mushbrained homunculus decisions and pretty much ran themselves out of the console market
i'm glad you're just mussing around lol i understand. i was just mostly talking about over the course of Sega's existence not just a specific part. Now that i think about it if sega was smarter we could have nintendo xbox PlayStation AND sega as a part of the "console wars" and it could add some more variety. maybe allowing sega to use their other ip's in a more meaningful manner
I love listening to your videos while I grade papers. Intelligent. Soothing. Plus I don't really have time to game with 3 young kids. While I dont always have well deserved fun I appreciate the thought and effort put forth in your content. Cheers.
Something I love is that you can tell whether a stage is open or closed by the theme. Stardust is a huge City so it's open, Flying Battery is an airship so it's closed. This applies to just about every level.
I haven't played a Sonic game in years, not since like.. the Adventure 2 days. But once I saw the first trailer for Mania, I knew I was in love. Kicking back right now on my bed, playing some Encore Mode in Sonic Mania Plus. Honestly, the 2D Sonic games are all I'm interested in. I love Sonic 2 but Mania by far is the best Sonic game I have ever played. It's just so damn enjoyable. And I'm glad Chemical Plant was one of the levels included that got remixed. Probably my favorite Sonic level of all time. Plus that music is just so iconic to me. Counting down the days till Mania 2, man.
I want more original levels like Studiopolis but there are too many great stages to leave untouched. I would love to see what the team could do with Marble Zone
I want a sequel that has remakes of old zones, but this time, I want the new zones to outnumber the old ones. Also, not sure how they'd work old zones into the story, unless it's all just still more Phantom Ruby shit, but I'd prefer something completely new story-wise. I do not want to see Marble Zone, however. Mushroom Hill, Aquatic Ruin, Marble Garden and Ice Cap would be my choices. Aquatic Ruin especially deserves a remake IMO, as the original is criminally short, has awesome music that I'd like to hear new versions of, is a water level but the Mania team make less frustrating water levels, and it's just fucking gorgeous to look at, and would look even better if remade I'm sure. Same argument kind of applies to Marble Garden, it's a level nobody really likes because of the level design but, the Mania team would obviously put an end to that problem, and it's a nice looking level with cool music. Maybe they could merge Marble Garden and Marble Zone, basically have Marble Garden but with lava? Of course, there would probably be issues with Ice Cap's music, I'm pretty sure that's the reason we haven't gotten a Christian Whitehead remake of S3&K. But Tee Lopes could write new music for it, in the style of the old music, maybe even with direct references. Although, covering songs doesn't tend to be an issue most of the time, does it? Does the fact it's a game somehow make a difference? Hm, maybe that's not the reason. But I know there are "legal issues".
I'd like to see remakes of Mystic Cave, Mushroom Hill, Aquatic Ruin, Carnival Night (and that damn barrel), Ice Cap, Sky Sanctuary, A better Metropolis Zone, the Death Egg zone from Sonic 3 (possibly with launch base zone, but that zone always felt too circumstantial and exclusively or sonic 3), possibly Hill Top and Sandopolis zones as well, mostly for their awesome music and the potential for level design enhancement which they badly need. I'd also like to see more of the few sonic 1 zones redone. They had great potential, but Sega didn't really know what to do with them, being the first sonic game in the series.
I want to see Sunset Park from Triple Trouble get remade in Mania 2. Aquatic Ruin, Ice Cap, Launch Base, Mushroom Hill, Sandopolis, Sky Sanctuary, & Quartz Quadrant would also be nice to have. I want Mania 2 to have at least 7 remixed zones, & 7 new zones. The zones for Mania were carefully chosen, we can only hope that the sequel & 3rd game can improve on the original game. I have hopes that Mania 2 adds characters like Amy & Honey, or The Chaotix.
i've been playing sonic mania more or less since a month after it dropped. i remember playing through the levels- particularly flying battery- a whole bunch of times, finding cool secrets and ways around the under-ship section. just before the release of sonic mania plus, i offered my friend a play. he proceeded to blow my mind and see a bunch of segments id never even stumbled upon, simply because we had different skillsets and were predisposed to certain paths (im better at platforming, hes better at speed). its a hell of an experience, and you hit the nail on the head.
The thing about Sonic Mania is it handled things better than the Sonic Boom set up did. Where Sega wanted to split the West and East sonic games. Sonic Boom WANTED to attempt something of an origin and have fun and Sega forced them to pull back and kept wanting something else...despite the fact it was a WESTERN Sonic. Sonic Mania proved when you DON'T have SEGA behind the wheel the game gives us what we want. Sega will never listen to fans about what we want for Sonic. They listen to the market which is why we get the 3d games we never asked for and gimmicks.
Fuuuuuuuuuck, why do people keep feeling the need to mention that this goddamn game sucks? WE FUCKING GET IT! It doesn't even make sense given the context of this comment. It feels like a hollow excuse to rag on it. 06 was a tragedy and it's not what's holding SEGA back right now. That would be fear, a rabid fanbase and as of late, incompetence. They've never been "iNsAne". I'm tired of people pinning all of Sonic's problems on this one game, when all you need to do is look at Generations to see that's not true.
I do agree with a fair bit of your points, especially how there are too many classic stages and, at times, the phantom ruby seems like a copout. The Heavy Gunner boss battle is too long and the Sky Chase reference didn't need to be there. I also wish there were 14 special stages and a return of the hyper forms. Hyper forms were my favorite from the classic era. The only nitpick I have of your retrospective is that Mighty isn't a Sonic recolor. A lot of people think this but it is incorrect. Mighty was actually one of the original designs for Sonic. The designs were an armadillo, a rabbit (which later became Cream), a dog, a hedgehog (which was chosen as the final design), and also at the time for mascots the design that finally became Eggman was in there as well. The armadillo later became Mighty for the Japanese only arcade game Sega Sonic the Hedgehog alongside Ray the flying squirrel, and then Mighty was also used in the 32X title Knuckles Chaotix. That was the last instance of Mighty in a game until Mania. Ray had not been seen in a game since Sega Sonic. Anyway, great video as always and I have really enjoyed your Classic Sonic Retrospectives. Have a good day.
I think Sega suffers from jealousy. They don’t like outside companies enjoying success with their properties. But they don’t have good talent in house so everyone loses.
While I love Sonic, grew up with Sonic, enjoyed and replayed the 2D games and mildly enjoyed the Adventure games - I fear Sonic, unlike Mario has trouble when breaking away from its roots. If all we want from Sonic is a 2D platformer, then Mania certainly is great. Just when Sonic moves to things like RPG's, Party Games and Fighters is when it falls flat. I hope they can see about trying the RPG's again - a Paper Mario esque Sonic game would be cool, but I probably shouldn't hold my breathe lol. Either way, great review as always - analyzing the game and not only highlighting its highs but criticizing its lows. Keep up the good work King!
@360 Overdrive Well there is no continuity between the games so you can jump into any. The one on N64 is very charming and fun but on GameCube The thousand year door is universally loved by most. Either one works, you'll have a blast.
The Partygame mode on Secret Rings was great. 1st Sonic Riders was great, Sonic had 2 good fighting games, & Chronicles is underrated. Sonic series was consistently doing well before FreeRiders & the other 2010s era games happened. The characters got flanderized because of the 2010s decade changes notably Pontac & Graff. As for Paper Mario I would suggest the N64 game & Thousand Year Door for GameCube.
My opinion is that Sonic is a very specific thing and it's hard to deviate too much from it's roots and it still feel like Sonic. I really think future Sonic games should be more 2.5D instead of full 3D. Works better with the three core elements that make a Sonic game a Sonic game.
Well before I watch the video since I somehow managed to catch this just as it came out, I just wanted to say that you are a big inspiration to me as not just a youtuber but also as a gamer and writer in general, your retrospectives are something that I always genuinely look forward to and I always feel like I've come to understand the game you're talking about on a much deeper level and makes me stop and ponder upon other games I enjoy or don't enjoy and why that is. Anyway, thank you for being an awesome writer and making so many awesome and well-thought videos. Don't stop anytime soon man!
For the record, I do wanna say that Sonic has no need for warps like Mario does. Mario games have warps for one purpose: to speed up the game. Mario is a great series but its slow pace makes levels and worlds within it drag on. These warp pipes, warp whistles, and such allowed players to speed through the game quickly to spite Mario's slow movement through stages. Sonic on the other hand moves very fast and levels are designed to be traversed as fast as possible or as slow and steady as you'd care to move through them. As such, warp pipes would serve no purpose other than to make levels too fast. Shortcuts and stage skips in a series that already offers shortcuts and speedy branching pathways would make the game end too quickly and cheapen the overall experience. There's absolutely no need to speed up a game designed around speed as a core mechanic. Using warps to speed up a slow character makes much more sense.
I TOTALLY AGREE ABOUT THE STORY! As an Adventure fan, story does matter in a Sonic game. When I played Sonic Mania for the first time, I felt something was missing. But now it has become one of my favorites now.
This is an awesome retrospective. You've done a great analysis on the design philosophy of the game, why and how it works, I agree with a lot of the points you made about the flaws in the game and how it could improve in the future. Mania gives a taste of how good Sonic can be in the right hands, there is so much potential that waits to be fully tapped in.
Great analysis and yes Titanic Monarch is the best final level in Sonic history imo, I'll take this to my grave until a final level surpasses its quality. Sonic Mania managed to have me question if it was my favorite surpassing even 3&K, but as much as I can say that maybe objectively Mania could be the best out of the classics, my nostalgia and 3&K's originality is too strong for me not to consider it my fav.
Titanic Monarch is amazing. So difficult but not cheap. And it never stopped being fun. I had to play act 2 SO many times before I could beat it and the "final" boss... but I enjoyed every moment of it.
Thanks KingK, I've been having a rough couple weeks and your videos always help keep my mind busy from all the nonsense. Keep up the good work mate EDIT: holy fuck that speedrun of Stardust Speedway was beautiful
The Hard-Boiled Heavies actually somewhat disobey Eggman as early as Green Hill Zone. During the level transition at the end, you can see Eggman arguing with them while they act up. Yes, it could use a bit more emphasis across the game, but it _is_ shown that they don't really obey him well from the moment they are turned into what they are by the Phantom Ruby. So while it's not very fleshed out, it _is_ there.
That last point, about breaking away from the old levels? Failure to do that is far and away the greatest criticism of Mania I've been hearing, so if the theory of "Sega listens too much to fans" is at all true, we should have NO problem there!
Whoever came up with that theory is delusional, if Sega listened "too much" to fans then how did we end up with sonic boom, forces, secret rings, black night etc when no one wanted any of these weird gimmicks? People have been asking Sega for over a decade now to go back to their roots and only recently have they actually listened and brought not only mania but generations as well, 2 excellent examples of what can be done with sonic IF they listen to the fans. What I can't understand is why, even after the success of these 2 games and the massive return to form for sonic (colours included), they still insist on chasing new gimmicks with each release rather than realising what works and what doesn't. With Colours, generations and mania they've given a glimmer of hope that the devs have finally found their niche and that sonic can thrive, but then immediately snatch it away with the following release, it's utterly baffling what's going on at Sega
was waiting on this. I found his channel through the "learning to love sonic mania" and frequently watch and rewatch his content so this is like an anniversary for me too 😂😂😂
As a hobbiest game maker and life fan of Sonic, videos like this are indispensable! Thanks heaps for putting the time to make such a well structured video with such good actual analysis. So many reviews as so superficial. Fingers crossed Sega pull all their fingers out and let the creative team make that sequel you talked about. It’s a mouth watering proposition! Thanks again!
15:35 This is why Sonic is amazing. Show people this clip who don’t like Sonic’s gameplay, this is truly amazing. Stardust Speedway Act 2 is short, but god is it ginormous. 20:11 I LOVE THIS SPRITE MAP. You don’t see complicated maps like this in any other game. Sonic is truly special.
I'm sad to see that you aren't more popular than you currently are, the efforts that you put in your videos is so painfully obvious that it makes me sad. You deserve better.
I USED to say "Oh god, Flying Battery is such a chore." whenever I got to it in S3&K. But in Mania, I friggin LOVE IT. Especially Act 2 with the outside segments.
As someone who loves examining the classic Sonic levels and diving into what makes them work and what makes them fail, your analyses of Sonic Mania's expertise on rhythm, difficulty, and pacing are so well written!
Dude, that's crazy. Today I was like: "It will be awsome if KingK will make Sonic Mania Retrospective video. But I guess he won't, because he said he doesn't want to critisize the game bcause he had so much fun playing it"
Man I really appreciated the break down you did as to WHY sonic games work. I personally have never had an easy time getting in to them because I thought it lacked rhythm. I might give it another shot now that you've explained how it's about adapting to huge maps and exploring.
I love the idea of secret level exits. But taking it a step further: They should make it so that every level in the main game is an original level, but 5 Zones have a secret exit somewhere in Act 1, that brings you to a single-act classic secret level, one from each classic Sonic game that was NOT in Mania, but which follows a similar theme to the level that lead into it, and features a revamped boss from that level in the original. Example, lets say Zone 4 is called Friction Quarry, and is a mining level with conveyors and gems and stuff. The secret exit could take you to Quartz Quadrant from Sonic CD, given the Mania treatment. This time the boss sort of combines the original theme of running the treadmill, but this time capsule eggman is in is a crusher as in Final Zone, instead of a static platform. and instead of a bomb dropping on you it will be on the treadmill, you have to manipulate Eggman's crusher and the bomb on the treadmill so that the bomb gets crushed instead of you. Say you do this 3 times and the crusher is damaged. Now you can run on the treadmill to melt the crusher (much faster than in CD) while dodging several obstacles as opposed to just the dropping bomb. Beating it would progress you to Zone 5, unlock the Act in time trial and competitive, and add the secret boss to a (hopeful) boss rush mode. Then do one of these for a Sonic 1, 2, 3, and Knuckles level as well. I'd love to see Scrap Brain (With a mecha/silver sonic tag team boss), Casino Night, Ice Cap (boss fight while snowboarding?) and Sky Sanctuary (Metal Knuckles/Super Metal Knckles boss) be the other levels. Simce they would just be secret levels, and one act a piece, it shouldn't feel so much like a throwback game.
I think the reason the Super Emeralds are damaged is so there's a reason Hyper Sonic isn't in the game. The reason I read that Hyper Sonic isn't a thing in this game is because one of the Japanese designers told the team that Hyper Sonic can't be in the game. Really dumb. I assume Christian Whitehead would have loved to include Hyper Sonic.
Fantastic video here my man. Mania is a master class in how to revive a tarnished franchise. Grant us nostalgia fixes without feeling fan serviced, bring innovation back into the foray and be meticulous with your level designs and soundtracks. I hope they do this exact same thing with Mania 2. Seriously, just do this exact same thing with new levels both refreshingly innovative and pleasantly remixed.
There's only two things in the video I take issue with, and that's your final 3 (2 of them) suggestions. Although I see the idea and why, I just don't think level warps work for Sonic and his design. You said it yourself, the joy of playing these levels and games comes from the repeat playthroughs and memorization of going through them fast. Hell, I'll even take a different path from my favorite ones and find stuff I didn't know about to this day. I don't think skipping levels entirely would make a lot of sense here, as Mario is generally more focused on collecting everything and platforming properly. Although not necessary, most hardcore or even just casual players of Mario players would agree that finding that secret path in Mario was usually more about finding that last star/level, or seeing things to come like finding the path in the ghost house that shows you the final few levels and Bowser's castle, building up your anticipation. Although I can see the parallels, I think the exploration in Mario is more, as mentioned, to find the right path or last necessary goody to proceed. In Sonic, the exploration for new players tends to be just how things turn out, or like experienced players like myself, seeing what the high middle and low paths have to offer and what's the fastest. You don't feel a need to explore every nook and cranny, it's just there to flesh out the level. With Mario it's necessary to proceed most of the time. I realize the special rings are a thing, but they are not mandatory in any way to completing the game unless you want the special ending and Super. And to your third, I'm pretty sure that's a given at this point. Pretty much every single review of this game praises the original levels and clamor for more. I know Sega has a fetish for beating us senseless with nostalgia, but I think the massive success Mania brought them will give Whitehead and crew enough clout to have their say next time round. Either way, sorry about the long-winded post. Everything else I agree with and I'm glad to see this video from ya. Good stuff friend.
+King K This is my first time watching your video. I love this retrospective of Sonic Mania. I love the old platforming series of Sonic and Mania has done a great job of it. I may never play Sonic Mania because I don't play video games on consoles anymore, but I find enjoyment of listening to Sonic Manias music and watching let's play of people play it. Even though I don't play video games, it was fun when I played growing up, but now, it's more fun watching the commentary, insights and funny stuff by my favorite TH-camrs of the games I used to play. Also, your voice is so smooth and soothing. It makes me fall asleep easily. I can listen to it all day. If you haven't done so, maybe you might consider doing Asmr. You definitely have the voice for it.
Good Stuff! It felt like you shook up the formula of your Retrospectives a little for this one - and I think it paid off. The introduction especially felt like a thesis for the rest of the video. The use of Non-Game footage too helped break things up. Can't wait to see how you follow up this one.
Honestly, I think it's funny that this retrospective exists at all. When I think "Retrospective" I think of a game released several years ago, not just a year ago. Nothing wrong with it, I just find it funny.
I hope that if you someday get to the Sonic Adventure games that you really go all out with the praise of the soundtrack for SA2. It is CRIMINALLY underappreciated for having, what I believe, to be one of the best overall soundtracks I've ever heard in a game. Of all the songs, all but two are things I can just listen to at any time and enjoy them.
Just wanted to give a shout out for your on point retrospective. As someone who grew up with original Sega Genesis Sonic games, I love what Sonic Mania was able to accomplish with regards to mixing nostalgia with progressive ideas.
With all the comparisans to the Mario series at the beginning, I'm actually pretty surprised you didn't mention that Ray's flight controls almost exactly like the Feather/Cape power-up in Super Mario World for the SNES. It's literally like what would happen if the Cape was put into a Sonic game. It works really well too because even in SMW, and it's slower pacing, the Cape can really give SMW a spice of Sonic-esque speed and is also a godsend for SMW speed runners.
YEAH! Your back! Missed you dude! And now you’re doing mania...can’t wait too hear your opinions! Also...finally subscribing too you, should’ve done that since the sonic 1 retrospective
I was just explaining to a friend how KingK and Mark Brown are my two favorite video game critics in all of criticism. That opening scene was a neat cross-over.
Can't wait for the biggest criticism of this video to be the way you pronounced Hydro City Zone. Good stuff though, I agreed with basically everything you said? Just hoping we get a truly original sequel that isn't rushed out the door like Mania, and even Mania Plus were.
Atomatic Games Sonic Generations? What about Sonic Mania? That states Hydrocity clear as day. Sonic Generations gets a whole bunch wrong anyway. No need to argue with something already with no authority. You really think they'd leave something as important as naming levels to people who had no knowledge of the English language? So I just have to accept they somehow forgot to put a space in there to create 2 words that form a name that has nothing to do with the level?
I've never liked Sonics gameplay, and Mania didn't change that when it was first released, thus I've never finished it. I've felt like the only person who didn't enjoy this game, however this video as inspired me to give it another try, by allowing me to think about the gameplay in a refreshing way. Great video as always
Great video dude. My biggest problem with Sonic Mania is the lack of new and original stages. Don't get me wrong, the remade stages are great, but the best part of Sonic Mania for me was exploring never seen before stages. Imagine if they made a new 2D Sonic game with all original stages with the same level designer team and composers. That would be hype.
And they would be stupid not to do that. Sonic Mania was such a success, I think Sega is going to keep around Christian Whitehead, Taxman and Stealth around for a while. As long as they're at the helm, I'm very hopeful for the future of the franchise.
This is by far the best sonic game Also, some of the complaints you have about this game are really knit picky Like come on are you seriously complaining about a classic sonic games storyline? In my humble opinion, this is the closest sonic has ever been to being nearly perfect
If they give them more freedom in a sequel, combined with learning from the very few mistakes made in Mania, it could honestly be one of the greatest platformers ever made. Who knows if Sega will even give them the chance though. Fantastic video KingK👍
You where really hard on Mania, and it came from a loving place. Its great to see someone love this game and be critical of it at the same time. Its really clear that Whitehead and his team are amazing and Sega is so bad in its management of Sonic. The wtf moments of no transitions being patched, fixed bosses, and added content show that as amazing as Mania is it was just as rushed as any other Sonic game. Sega executives are disconnected from their American fan base so odds are the sequel wont be an impovement but just a cash grab. They might even tire out the Mania team. Love only takes a programmer so far, I should know I am one. LOL.
It's a great game, but I felt some levels relied way too heavy on its unique gimmicks, which I didn't feel were always integrated too well with the overall level. The bosses, while more intricate and difficult than almost anything from the original games, felt.. off somehow. Other than that, it's a really solid game and a fantastic homage to the classics.
You make alot of great points in this video. I'm not a fan of sonic games at all, but Sonic Mania has gotta be one of my favorite platformers of all time and its due to its level design. Its funny how you really want a good story out of these games I had always thought the non-binding aspects of Mania's narrative was the point, as it feels like a throwback to 90's era games story's (Loose and nonsensical). But clearly consistency is important to them otherwise they wouldn't have put more effort into stage transitions with the Encore update. I'm just hoping a Sonic Mania 2 is on its way, with improvements to its pacing and hopefully mostly consisting of brand new levels. I appreciate what they've done with alot of returning stages but the purple water in chemical plant is something that never should have returned when considering good game design, so I'd like them to apply their modern take on design philosophy in completely new ways.
I think it's pretty clear your interest lies in Classic Sonic, but if you ever had the time or interest I would love to hear what you think about Sonic Adventure. It's definitely a different experience and I don't know how much exposure you've had, but the freedom its mechanics offer give a lot of variety to the way you can master its stages, so I would be absolutely delighted to hear your thoughts, whatever they may be.
hey mark brown, thas me
There he is!
It's a crossover episode!
Are you sure?
hey mark brown, thas also me
Oh hi mark!
28:50, oh wow, I always play Sonic alone, and I don't think I'd seen the new transition as Tails by himself yet, so I had no idea about that homage to the OVA!
i watch your videos hi
2 great content creators
What's up geek critique!
Yeah always play Sonic alone unless you have a second person to control Tails. Died stupidly too many times in Sonic 3 because of Tails.
"SEGA would be insane NOT to make a sequel"
And that's why it won't happen.
Yea. SEGA's fuckups are legendary by that point. Though *if* they make a sequel, I hope it will have a more modern art design.
I think the opposite. If they make a sequel "too soon" it would devalue the impact of Mania. I feel we need a good 3D Sonic or a different style of 2D Sonic. Pandering to nostalgia can backfire and hold back the potential of the franchise.
@@M3rtyville Making a sequel to Mania with original levels? That would make for a great sonic game. Fuck 3d sonic
Imperfect_Dan Not a “great” game. It could be a “masterpiece”
fuggin 3d sonic rolling physics game like goron link make it happen
Listening to his boundless optimism at the end while watching Stealth's kickstarter faceplant and his sad video about how little he ended up getting paid for mania, 2 years out with no formal announcement for a Mania follow-up... once again SEGA is throwing away a good thing for seemingly no reason.
There's something to be said about the hidden level entrances. Like imagine if you were able to choose which version of Mirage Saloon Act 1 you can go to depending on which exit you took.
Personally I'd like to see a hybrid of Mario's hidden level exits and Star Fox's alternate paths. Just think of how much replay value you can get from that honestly.
This is golden! Sonic and Star Fox 64 have exactly the same kind of replayability, branching pathways could be a great way to reward more curious players with more game to play, instead of just a powerup.
You know it also be nice of them to use golden axe example of multiple level exit. where you can take the other exits will lead you to a different level then your last play thre. so that way you have your own personal route. . Heck they can take from the game gear levels and make them as a additonal level set for both sets of island.
You know there was a 3D Sonic Game where the path you chose determined your next stage, unfortunately people seem to hate that game for some reason. It's called Shadow the Hedgehog & it's epic. We're hoping Mania was some of the light at the end of Sonic's Darkage that started in 2010.
Maybe go the Castlevania 3 route and have a choice to go to certain zones while passing others by for a later playthrough.
@@WaterKirby1994 That's because Shadow the Hedgehog controlled poorly and had visuals and music that are bland as shit. And because the Last Story was locked behind finishing all 10 Pathways which is just garbage. Sonic Heroes did that first and nobody liked it then so it boggles my mind that Shadow the Hedgehog did it worse.
Fun fact: Hyper Sonic was actually planned for the game. This can be seen in the files, where active Super Emerald sprites, the word "Hyper," and some other stuff can be found. But then Sega was like, "No no, that's not gonna happen." It's unfortunate, really. I'm working on modding some of this stuff back into the game.
Yess, your Sonic retrospectives introduced me to your channel, so have been looking forwards to the mania retrospective for some time now!
did NOT expect to see you here
I remember playing this the day it came out, and thinking, "Oh man, this game's pretty good!"
And then I got to the Mean Bean Machine/Puyo Puyo boss and I laughed to myself and thought "Screw that, this is the BEST GAME EVER!"
Lol ok
I really hope we get a mania sequel soon. If that team got the opportunity to make a completely original sonic game with no old levels and brand new concepts I think we could have the best sonic game since generations.
This is a wonderful retrospective. I wish I had more to say on it, but I don't. Great job KingK.
@Timothy Donovan wut?
@@Artoliann my thoughts exactly
@SPIN DASH PRO ACT 2! I think you had a stroke r/ihadastroke
35:49 "Forces destroyed a lot of the goodwill I had built up over the years."
You still had goodwill for Sonic after Lost World and Boom?
I'm so glad you went into depth on your philosophy on speedrunning for Sonic. Sonic always felt conducive to multiple playthroughs for the sake of discovery rather than the sake of mastery, for me at least. This was at its best in Sonic 3 pre-& Knuckles, where there were mystery walls you'd wonder what to do with and then AW SHIT IT'S DAT FIGHTIN' FREAK KNUCKLES BUSTIN' DOWN ALL THE WALLS NEW LEVEL AREA LIKE WHOA SON, but it's done really nicely in Mania, and you show it really well. It's not even something that routing-focused games like, say, Donkey Kong 64 have to deal with, glitches aside - you're already picking up all the stuff and exploring every nook and cranny in one go anyway, so getting your bearings and routing is just a lot easier naturally. Sonic is a lot of dedication and a LOT of repeat playthroughs, and the frustration of learning that is prrrobably why it's not as popular of a speed game as, say, the Donkey Kong Countries, or even the Sonic Adventure games. This makes a really solid case for Plus, at least, being an evolution of the concept (adding the Mario World cape kinda helps).
I really appreciate your breakdown of the closed vs open design. It's something I'd always felt, and the exploration-based side of me always worked against. I found myself actually dying by time in Flying Battery and the like, trying to go against the more linear routes... and then having to backtrack when I realized that I'd gone completely backwards. Having it set like this makes it far less frustrating. It doesn't entirely warm me to the levels, but then again I'm one of those people who really loves Sandopolis Act 2 for its linearity and timing-based challenges, so that could just be a bit of personal preference.
You've done a ton of maturing just through the process of doing these videos. Seeing your take on Sonic evolve until it's achieved this final state of reflection in this video, using all the previous retrospectives to build upon what's shared in this one. Whilst I didn't get the same itch to replay Mania again and again like you did, I did thoroughly enjoy my playthrough of it, and found just messing with the world to be entirely engrossing. If I were the same kind of player I was as a kid, I would've totally explored every inch and fallen absolutely in love with it, and this definitely helps me see that.
Insofar as the narrative stuff goes, I... don't really see why we couldn't just use the Phantom Ruby as a terraformer or something akin to a philosopher's stone rather than "it can do anything and everything". Just having it amass pieces of the various islands and Little Planet around itself, restoring them to Eggman's original designs whilst he also builds newer zones and items around them - that feels like a far stronger narrative pull, for me, than just "it does whatever, congratulations you were just teleported... MAYBE back in time I don't know?" It frustrates me that Sonic Colors pulled this off almost thoughtlessly, yet Mania feels very slapdash in its integration. I dunno, I just feel that there was SOME solution that obviously wasn't prioritized, but coulda been. But then I'm thinking deep into the lore of Sonic at this point so perhaps I should just stop here.
pyrrhickong get. A. Life.
@@InputEvelution yeah, I wish I knew that. If anything, it means you're well informed.
To say Sonic Mania’s special stages have the best music is not only 100% correct but not a small plus. It’s a huge plus. The jump in quality in these stages from every other Sonic game ever to Mania is incredible and yes they’re by far the best.
And please never badmouth Puyo Puyo ever again! That boss fight was awesome!
I loved the mean bean machine part. It's madness to demand games be tailored to the whims of speedrunners
"characters with unique abilities like shadow"
God, could you imagine Shadow in the classic style? He would somehow look more and less edgy, like he's trying even harder. It'd be so great.
Imagine? We don't need to imagine. There's approximately 7 billion romhacks that add Shadow to the classic games.
@@k-leb4671 romhacks ? HAHAHAHHA there are FUCKING SONIC MANIA MODS THAT ADD HIM
my brain functions much more in the mario style, but for those that prefer the sonic format, i'm happy that mania exists.
I was wondering why this is now my favorite "Classic" Sonic game. It's VERY consistent. Sonic 1-3 as much as I like them have obnoxious flaws that prevent me from goign back to them as much as I'd like.
"Sega would be insane to not release a 2"
I'm not sure how to break it to you, my man...
Great analysis; one of Mania's greatest strengths has been trimming the fat with slow paced waiting sections and making the sense of flow organic. In regards to forward thinking design this game is rife with, I think the additions via the Plus DLC demonstrated two major things.
First that Sonic games can still mix it up in terms of character abilities without changing the gameplay style or seeming out of place. Sonic Advance did some interesting stuff with Amy and Cream, but the former felt awkward at points and latter broke the game's difficulty a lot. Ray and Mighty not only feel completely natural in 2D Sonic levels, they're also balanced in design. Mighty can't chain speed like Sonic or explore like the others, but he's ideal against enemies and hazards. Ray requires precise use and is nerfed underwater, yet is to the air what Sonic is on land.
Secondly, the Encore Mode has introduced a great layer of strategy to the series. While a lot of the player thinking in Sonic titles before have involved devising methods to reach paths or ideas on how to beat bosses, the characters as lives system now creates an inventive to really consider how you go about a stage. Do you use Ray to keep your pace in the level, or Knuckles as a meat shield in case tough sections might catch you by surprise? For a series that's unfairly lambasted as being speeding left to right through levels, its a concept that rewards decision making and smart selection from the player's proverbial toolbox.
I do agree with your complaints about the story
Not just the issues with heavy king and Eggman
But just the entire hard boiled heavy crew just seem to disappear, with only the heavy magician getting some sort of explanation in encore mode
And then there is encore mode, it makes no sense at all, story wise.
I would had rather that there be no boss fights than all the bosses repeating themselves
Also the opening cutscene of encore mode
You see the heavy king holding the phantom ruby in angel island, but in green hill it is back in the rock the ruby was initially in?
It makes no sense
Encore Mode was solely a way to introduce 2 old school characters into Classic-style Sonic ganes, and does literally nothing of value in terms of story.
I suppose that, story wise, one could maybe imply that they're not trying to do the same thing again, but rather, they rewinded time, hence why they're doing the same thing again, but with a twist.
"This is the part where I thank a lot of people that give me money"
Dear lord that made me hysterical. Not just because of that sentence but the way you said it in a greedy-like voice was perfect.
I didn't think encore mode was supposed to be set after Forces. My immediate assumption when I played the DLC was that it was supposed to be an alternate story about what happened to Sonic after the Super Sonic fight, where Mania Adventures was the actual post Forces story. I've never looked for any statement made by the creative team, but that was just my interpretation.
Also, I'm so glad you talked about this game. This was a fantastic video
This was such a nice trip. I wish Sega looks more in it's direction from now on, and not where Forces is.
This is like the 8th video I've seen reviewing mania that ends with "I can't wait for that sequel! it's gonna be great!", and every time it makes me fucking cry.
Phantom Ruby Story and old stages were brought only because the team didn't had enough people and time, so they couldn't make more original zones. SEGA didn't liked the idea of game having only 5 zones, so they said "rehash old zones and connect to our new project or sumthin".
Thank you.
…I know that is an older video by now; I just would like to touch on a few points.
- I appreciate your having categorized the levels between Open and Closed; I’m a person who primarily prefers linear, structured platforming levels, which I think is why I’ve had some difficulty with getting into classic Sonic before.
- …Piggybacking off of the previous bullet; I can safely say that I generally prefer the Closed stages with a more focused pathway, rather than what I feel is confusing, overwhelming openness, but that’s just me.
- I appreciate that you mentioned the Mania animations and agree with you- there’s so much more appeal to their characteristics and narrative, rather than the more grotesque facade that the recent 3D titles have displayed.
I never really thought of difficulty curves within individual stages, but Mario's ability to ease players into upcoming challenges puts it into context. Definitely agree with the story being lackluster. I always found it funny that you're hopping back and forth between Angel Island and Little Planet. I'm not against bi-plane stages in 2D Sonic, but when the enemies are literally just recolors of Sky Chase's enemies, it's pretty insulting.
All in all while I respect the team's ability to capture what worked in the classic games, there's a little too much nostalgia in there, in a time when nostalgia is becoming overbearing. It doesn't really take what made classic Sonic gameplay work and expand on it in a fresh new way, but simply a step backwards to point out what worked in those 20 year old games that Sonic 4 failed to replicate.
It actually very much expanded and improved upon the originals, everything sonic mania did was much much better than the originals and all the new stuff is just a testimate to how truly unique this game is. Aesthetically they look the same as they did, but in terms of the actual stuff you do in these levels and the new interactive gimmicks that serve as either something fun to look at or something to make sonic move even faster than usual, there's a lot here that's so new you can't recognize what it is anymore and the stages have their own identity.
"Sega would be crazy not to make a sequel." Sadly I read an article this week that sounds like Sega pretty much fired the studio who created Sonica Mania over creative differences over Sonic Mania 2.
The only way to save Sonic is to take it away from Sonic team
@@bls8959 For real I think that's true. It's pretty telling that the most criticial and commercial successful Sonic game was basically an official fan game. And the "official" Sonic game after it was panned by both fans and critics.
@@bls8959we need team metal sonic, the opposite to make sonic good
>SEGA
>making the right decision
pick one and only one
both, because you're just making this comment for odd reasons , sega made good decisions in the past and you are making it look like it never happened once
@@mbdg6810 yeah like the great decision of declining Sony's offers after Nintendo turned them down and arrogantly ignoring Sega of America's efforts due to that branch being more succesful than Japan's, which resulted in all those Sega Genesis Life Support add-ons which plummeted the Saturn's sales. Great decisions, indeed.
being a dick doesn't prove anything. I didn't say overall they made good decisions I'm saying there are some that have been made, for one allowing christian whitehead to make a sonic game was a good decision and not taking down fan games unlike Nintendo. now they may not relate to any of the subject but acting like they have NEVER made good decisions (which is equal to ZERO) is just dumb
@@mbdg6810 I know that, just messing around a bit. Though I definitely agree that SEGA has made some good moves, most of these have been recent, far later than when SEGA was a top dog. When making good decisions mattered most, they took some abysmal, mushbrained homunculus decisions and pretty much ran themselves out of the console market
i'm glad you're just mussing around lol i understand. i was just mostly talking about over the course of Sega's existence not just a specific part. Now that i think about it if sega was smarter we could have nintendo xbox PlayStation AND sega as a part of the "console wars" and it could add some more variety. maybe allowing sega to use their other ip's in a more meaningful manner
I love listening to your videos while I grade papers. Intelligent. Soothing. Plus I don't really have time to game with 3 young kids. While I dont always have well deserved fun I appreciate the thought and effort put forth in your content.
Cheers.
@@jaykelley103 what
Im really glad they added Mighty. He was my favourite member of Chaotix back in the day and just got forgotten about.
Something I love is that you can tell whether a stage is open or closed by the theme. Stardust is a huge City so it's open, Flying Battery is an airship so it's closed. This applies to just about every level.
I haven't played a Sonic game in years, not since like.. the Adventure 2 days. But once I saw the first trailer for Mania, I knew I was in love. Kicking back right now on my bed, playing some Encore Mode in Sonic Mania Plus. Honestly, the 2D Sonic games are all I'm interested in. I love Sonic 2 but Mania by far is the best Sonic game I have ever played. It's just so damn enjoyable. And I'm glad Chemical Plant was one of the levels included that got remixed. Probably my favorite Sonic level of all time. Plus that music is just so iconic to me. Counting down the days till Mania 2, man.
I think dunkey said it best when he said "the new stuff makes you wish it was nothing but the new stuff"
I want more original levels like Studiopolis but there are too many great stages to leave untouched. I would love to see what the team could do with Marble Zone
I want a sequel that has remakes of old zones, but this time, I want the new zones to outnumber the old ones. Also, not sure how they'd work old zones into the story, unless it's all just still more Phantom Ruby shit, but I'd prefer something completely new story-wise.
I do not want to see Marble Zone, however. Mushroom Hill, Aquatic Ruin, Marble Garden and Ice Cap would be my choices. Aquatic Ruin especially deserves a remake IMO, as the original is criminally short, has awesome music that I'd like to hear new versions of, is a water level but the Mania team make less frustrating water levels, and it's just fucking gorgeous to look at, and would look even better if remade I'm sure. Same argument kind of applies to Marble Garden, it's a level nobody really likes because of the level design but, the Mania team would obviously put an end to that problem, and it's a nice looking level with cool music. Maybe they could merge Marble Garden and Marble Zone, basically have Marble Garden but with lava? Of course, there would probably be issues with Ice Cap's music, I'm pretty sure that's the reason we haven't gotten a Christian Whitehead remake of S3&K. But Tee Lopes could write new music for it, in the style of the old music, maybe even with direct references. Although, covering songs doesn't tend to be an issue most of the time, does it? Does the fact it's a game somehow make a difference? Hm, maybe that's not the reason. But I know there are "legal issues".
I'd like to see remakes of Mystic Cave, Mushroom Hill, Aquatic Ruin, Carnival Night (and that damn barrel), Ice Cap, Sky Sanctuary, A better Metropolis Zone, the Death Egg zone from Sonic 3 (possibly with launch base zone, but that zone always felt too circumstantial and exclusively or sonic 3), possibly Hill Top and Sandopolis zones as well, mostly for their awesome music and the potential for level design enhancement which they badly need. I'd also like to see more of the few sonic 1 zones redone. They had great potential, but Sega didn't really know what to do with them, being the first sonic game in the series.
You can't add a stage to Mania without it being the odd one out. They were chosen carefully.
I want to see Sunset Park from Triple Trouble get remade in Mania 2. Aquatic Ruin, Ice Cap, Launch Base, Mushroom Hill, Sandopolis, Sky Sanctuary, & Quartz Quadrant would also be nice to have. I want Mania 2 to have at least 7 remixed zones, & 7 new zones. The zones for Mania were carefully chosen, we can only hope that the sequel & 3rd game can improve on the original game. I have hopes that Mania 2 adds characters like Amy & Honey, or The Chaotix.
These could all be free dlc/challenge stages.
i've been playing sonic mania more or less since a month after it dropped. i remember playing through the levels- particularly flying battery- a whole bunch of times, finding cool secrets and ways around the under-ship section.
just before the release of sonic mania plus, i offered my friend a play. he proceeded to blow my mind and see a bunch of segments id never even stumbled upon, simply because we had different skillsets and were predisposed to certain paths (im better at platforming, hes better at speed). its a hell of an experience, and you hit the nail on the head.
The thing about Sonic Mania is it handled things better than the Sonic Boom set up did. Where Sega wanted to split the West and East sonic games. Sonic Boom WANTED to attempt something of an origin and have fun and Sega forced them to pull back and kept wanting something else...despite the fact it was a WESTERN Sonic.
Sonic Mania proved when you DON'T have SEGA behind the wheel the game gives us what we want.
Sega will never listen to fans about what we want for Sonic. They listen to the market which is why we get the 3d games we never asked for and gimmicks.
Would be insane NOT to make a sequel...
Oh you'd be surprised I think they've BEEN insane ever since their downfall with 06.
I think they’ve been insane since they decided to not make Sonic Adventure 3.
@@33Dannyb they’re too scared to go back to the adventure style storytelling and gameplay.
@@mistertazington1014 Rightfully so, since 06 was the last attempt and really screwed Sega reputation even after 15 years, i feel sorry for them
Fuuuuuuuuuck, why do people keep feeling the need to mention that this goddamn game sucks? WE FUCKING GET IT! It doesn't even make sense given the context of this comment. It feels like a hollow excuse to rag on it. 06 was a tragedy and it's not what's holding SEGA back right now. That would be fear, a rabid fanbase and as of late, incompetence. They've never been "iNsAne". I'm tired of people pinning all of Sonic's problems on this one game, when all you need to do is look at Generations to see that's not true.
I do agree with a fair bit of your points, especially how there are too many classic stages and, at times, the phantom ruby seems like a copout. The Heavy Gunner boss battle is too long and the Sky Chase reference didn't need to be there. I also wish there were 14 special stages and a return of the hyper forms. Hyper forms were my favorite from the classic era.
The only nitpick I have of your retrospective is that Mighty isn't a Sonic recolor. A lot of people think this but it is incorrect. Mighty was actually one of the original designs for Sonic. The designs were an armadillo, a rabbit (which later became Cream), a dog, a hedgehog (which was chosen as the final design), and also at the time for mascots the design that finally became Eggman was in there as well. The armadillo later became Mighty for the Japanese only arcade game Sega Sonic the Hedgehog alongside Ray the flying squirrel, and then Mighty was also used in the 32X title Knuckles Chaotix. That was the last instance of Mighty in a game until Mania. Ray had not been seen in a game since Sega Sonic.
Anyway, great video as always and I have really enjoyed your Classic Sonic Retrospectives. Have a good day.
I think Sega suffers from jealousy. They don’t like outside companies enjoying success with their properties. But they don’t have good talent in house so everyone loses.
While I love Sonic, grew up with Sonic, enjoyed and replayed the 2D games and mildly enjoyed the Adventure games - I fear Sonic, unlike Mario has trouble when breaking away from its roots. If all we want from Sonic is a 2D platformer, then Mania certainly is great. Just when Sonic moves to things like RPG's, Party Games and Fighters is when it falls flat. I hope they can see about trying the RPG's again - a Paper Mario esque Sonic game would be cool, but I probably shouldn't hold my breathe lol.
Either way, great review as always - analyzing the game and not only highlighting its highs but criticizing its lows. Keep up the good work King!
@360 Overdrive Well there is no continuity between the games so you can jump into any. The one on N64 is very charming and fun but on GameCube The thousand year door is universally loved by most. Either one works, you'll have a blast.
The Partygame mode on Secret Rings was great. 1st Sonic Riders was great, Sonic had 2 good fighting games, & Chronicles is underrated. Sonic series was consistently doing well before FreeRiders & the other 2010s era games happened. The characters got flanderized because of the 2010s decade changes notably Pontac & Graff.
As for Paper Mario I would suggest the N64 game & Thousand Year Door for GameCube.
Some games aren't necessarily meant to expand that much. And I don't think that's necessarily a flaw.
Sonic the fighters is fire what r u talkin about
My opinion is that Sonic is a very specific thing and it's hard to deviate too much from it's roots and it still feel like Sonic. I really think future Sonic games should be more 2.5D instead of full 3D. Works better with the three core elements that make a Sonic game a Sonic game.
Well before I watch the video since I somehow managed to catch this just as it came out, I just wanted to say that you are a big inspiration to me as not just a youtuber but also as a gamer and writer in general, your retrospectives are something that I always genuinely look forward to and I always feel like I've come to understand the game you're talking about on a much deeper level and makes me stop and ponder upon other games I enjoy or don't enjoy and why that is. Anyway, thank you for being an awesome writer and making so many awesome and well-thought videos. Don't stop anytime soon man!
Thanks!
For the record, I do wanna say that Sonic has no need for warps like Mario does. Mario games have warps for one purpose: to speed up the game. Mario is a great series but its slow pace makes levels and worlds within it drag on. These warp pipes, warp whistles, and such allowed players to speed through the game quickly to spite Mario's slow movement through stages. Sonic on the other hand moves very fast and levels are designed to be traversed as fast as possible or as slow and steady as you'd care to move through them. As such, warp pipes would serve no purpose other than to make levels too fast. Shortcuts and stage skips in a series that already offers shortcuts and speedy branching pathways would make the game end too quickly and cheapen the overall experience. There's absolutely no need to speed up a game designed around speed as a core mechanic. Using warps to speed up a slow character makes much more sense.
I find it ironic how 3D Mario became less linear while 3D Sonic became more linear.
Sonic Adventure wasn't much less linear than it's 2D predecessors.
I TOTALLY AGREE ABOUT THE STORY! As an Adventure fan, story does matter in a Sonic game. When I played Sonic Mania for the first time, I felt something was missing. But now it has become one of my favorites now.
This is an awesome retrospective.
You've done a great analysis on the design philosophy of the game, why and how it works, I agree with a lot of the points you made about the flaws in the game and how it could improve in the future. Mania gives a taste of how good Sonic can be in the right hands, there is so much potential that waits to be fully tapped in.
Great analysis and yes Titanic Monarch is the best final level in Sonic history imo, I'll take this to my grave until a final level surpasses its quality. Sonic Mania managed to have me question if it was my favorite surpassing even 3&K, but as much as I can say that maybe objectively Mania could be the best out of the classics, my nostalgia and 3&K's originality is too strong for me not to consider it my fav.
Titanic Monarch is amazing. So difficult but not cheap. And it never stopped being fun. I had to play act 2 SO many times before I could beat it and the "final" boss... but I enjoyed every moment of it.
Thanks KingK,
I've been having a rough couple weeks and your videos always help keep my mind busy from all the nonsense. Keep up the good work mate
EDIT: holy fuck that speedrun of Stardust Speedway was beautiful
The Hard-Boiled Heavies actually somewhat disobey Eggman as early as Green Hill Zone. During the level transition at the end, you can see Eggman arguing with them while they act up. Yes, it could use a bit more emphasis across the game, but it _is_ shown that they don't really obey him well from the moment they are turned into what they are by the Phantom Ruby. So while it's not very fleshed out, it _is_ there.
Agreed though it's a detail that's easy to miss.
That last point, about breaking away from the old levels? Failure to do that is far and away the greatest criticism of Mania I've been hearing, so if the theory of "Sega listens too much to fans" is at all true, we should have NO problem there!
Whoever came up with that theory is delusional, if Sega listened "too much" to fans then how did we end up with sonic boom, forces, secret rings, black night etc when no one wanted any of these weird gimmicks? People have been asking Sega for over a decade now to go back to their roots and only recently have they actually listened and brought not only mania but generations as well, 2 excellent examples of what can be done with sonic IF they listen to the fans. What I can't understand is why, even after the success of these 2 games and the massive return to form for sonic (colours included), they still insist on chasing new gimmicks with each release rather than realising what works and what doesn't. With Colours, generations and mania they've given a glimmer of hope that the devs have finally found their niche and that sonic can thrive, but then immediately snatch it away with the following release, it's utterly baffling what's going on at Sega
was waiting on this. I found his channel through the "learning to love sonic mania" and frequently watch and rewatch his content so this is like an anniversary for me too 😂😂😂
As a hobbiest game maker and life fan of Sonic, videos like this are indispensable! Thanks heaps for putting the time to make such a well structured video with such good actual analysis. So many reviews as so superficial. Fingers crossed Sega pull all their fingers out and let the creative team make that sequel you talked about. It’s a mouth watering proposition! Thanks again!
Bro if he hated the slow boring boss fights in Mania.
Superstars is gonna murder his patience.
15:35 This is why Sonic is amazing. Show people this clip who don’t like Sonic’s gameplay, this is truly amazing. Stardust Speedway Act 2 is short, but god is it ginormous. 20:11 I LOVE THIS SPRITE MAP. You don’t see complicated maps like this in any other game. Sonic is truly special.
I'm sad to see that you aren't more popular than you currently are, the efforts that you put in your videos is so painfully obvious that it makes me sad. You deserve better.
Flying Battery Zone in Sonic Mania is a massive improvement over its Sonic 3 & Knuckles counterpart.
I USED to say "Oh god, Flying Battery is such a chore." whenever I got to it in S3&K. But in Mania, I friggin LOVE IT. Especially Act 2 with the outside segments.
As someone who loves examining the classic Sonic levels and diving into what makes them work and what makes them fail, your analyses of Sonic Mania's expertise on rhythm, difficulty, and pacing are so well written!
Dude, that's crazy. Today I was like: "It will be awsome if KingK will make Sonic Mania Retrospective video. But I guess he won't, because he said he doesn't want to critisize the game bcause he had so much fun playing it"
Man I really appreciated the break down you did as to WHY sonic games work. I personally have never had an easy time getting in to them because I thought it lacked rhythm. I might give it another shot now that you've explained how it's about adapting to huge maps and exploring.
I just have realised, this is not a Sonic Mania restrospective, that's a Sonic Mania Plus restrospective
I love how much effort and entertaining your videos are. I hope you're able to keep making them for as long as you can!
I love the idea of secret level exits. But taking it a step further: They should make it so that every level in the main game is an original level, but 5 Zones have a secret exit somewhere in Act 1, that brings you to a single-act classic secret level, one from each classic Sonic game that was NOT in Mania, but which follows a similar theme to the level that lead into it, and features a revamped boss from that level in the original.
Example, lets say Zone 4 is called Friction Quarry, and is a mining level with conveyors and gems and stuff. The secret exit could take you to Quartz Quadrant from Sonic CD, given the Mania treatment. This time the boss sort of combines the original theme of running the treadmill, but this time capsule eggman is in is a crusher as in Final Zone, instead of a static platform. and instead of a bomb dropping on you it will be on the treadmill, you have to manipulate Eggman's crusher and the bomb on the treadmill so that the bomb gets crushed instead of you. Say you do this 3 times and the crusher is damaged. Now you can run on the treadmill to melt the crusher (much faster than in CD) while dodging several obstacles as opposed to just the dropping bomb.
Beating it would progress you to Zone 5, unlock the Act in time trial and competitive, and add the secret boss to a (hopeful) boss rush mode.
Then do one of these for a Sonic 1, 2, 3, and Knuckles level as well. I'd love to see Scrap Brain (With a mecha/silver sonic tag team boss), Casino Night, Ice Cap (boss fight while snowboarding?) and Sky Sanctuary (Metal Knuckles/Super Metal Knckles boss) be the other levels. Simce they would just be secret levels, and one act a piece, it shouldn't feel so much like a throwback game.
Mania Team didn't had all the levels completely original just because they didn't had enough people and time, and 5-zone game was not enough.
I think the reason the Super Emeralds are damaged is so there's a reason Hyper Sonic isn't in the game. The reason I read that Hyper Sonic isn't a thing in this game is because one of the Japanese designers told the team that Hyper Sonic can't be in the game.
Really dumb. I assume Christian Whitehead would have loved to include Hyper Sonic.
Fantastic video here my man. Mania is a master class in how to revive a tarnished franchise. Grant us nostalgia fixes without feeling fan serviced, bring innovation back into the foray and be meticulous with your level designs and soundtracks. I hope they do this exact same thing with Mania 2. Seriously, just do this exact same thing with new levels both refreshingly innovative and pleasantly remixed.
I’m glad you love what you do and play, I hope you continue doing these videos one whatever you like!
There's only two things in the video I take issue with, and that's your final 3 (2 of them) suggestions. Although I see the idea and why, I just don't think level warps work for Sonic and his design. You said it yourself, the joy of playing these levels and games comes from the repeat playthroughs and memorization of going through them fast. Hell, I'll even take a different path from my favorite ones and find stuff I didn't know about to this day. I don't think skipping levels entirely would make a lot of sense here, as Mario is generally more focused on collecting everything and platforming properly. Although not necessary, most hardcore or even just casual players of Mario players would agree that finding that secret path in Mario was usually more about finding that last star/level, or seeing things to come like finding the path in the ghost house that shows you the final few levels and Bowser's castle, building up your anticipation. Although I can see the parallels, I think the exploration in Mario is more, as mentioned, to find the right path or last necessary goody to proceed. In Sonic, the exploration for new players tends to be just how things turn out, or like experienced players like myself, seeing what the high middle and low paths have to offer and what's the fastest. You don't feel a need to explore every nook and cranny, it's just there to flesh out the level. With Mario it's necessary to proceed most of the time. I realize the special rings are a thing, but they are not mandatory in any way to completing the game unless you want the special ending and Super.
And to your third, I'm pretty sure that's a given at this point. Pretty much every single review of this game praises the original levels and clamor for more. I know Sega has a fetish for beating us senseless with nostalgia, but I think the massive success Mania brought them will give Whitehead and crew enough clout to have their say next time round.
Either way, sorry about the long-winded post. Everything else I agree with and I'm glad to see this video from ya. Good stuff friend.
Your comparison between Mario and Sonic is so spot on and fair. I've never heard anyone put it so well
+King K
This is my first time watching your video. I love this retrospective of Sonic Mania. I love the old platforming series of Sonic and Mania has done a great job of it.
I may never play Sonic Mania because I don't play video games on consoles anymore, but I find enjoyment of listening to Sonic Manias music and watching let's play of people play it.
Even though I don't play video games, it was fun when I played growing up, but now, it's more fun watching the commentary, insights and funny stuff by my favorite TH-camrs of the games I used to play.
Also, your voice is so smooth and soothing. It makes me fall asleep easily. I can listen to it all day. If you haven't done so, maybe you might consider doing Asmr. You definitely have the voice for it.
Good Stuff! It felt like you shook up the formula of your Retrospectives a little for this one - and I think it paid off. The introduction especially felt like a thesis for the rest of the video. The use of Non-Game footage too helped break things up. Can't wait to see how you follow up this one.
This gotta be my favorite sonic video, shows the criticism and good parts about sonic mania. Very well done video
Honestly, I think it's funny that this retrospective exists at all. When I think "Retrospective" I think of a game released several years ago, not just a year ago.
Nothing wrong with it, I just find it funny.
I hope that if you someday get to the Sonic Adventure games that you really go all out with the praise of the soundtrack for SA2. It is CRIMINALLY underappreciated for having, what I believe, to be one of the best overall soundtracks I've ever heard in a game. Of all the songs, all but two are things I can just listen to at any time and enjoy them.
I’m so happy you used the word Crescendo correctly. You’d be surprised how many people use the word as a synonym for climax as opposed to build up.
Just wanted to give a shout out for your on point retrospective. As someone who grew up with original Sega Genesis Sonic games, I love what Sonic Mania was able to accomplish with regards to mixing nostalgia with progressive ideas.
Your 2D Sonic retrospectives are amazing. I watch them over and over and learn something new each time.
With all the comparisans to the Mario series at the beginning, I'm actually pretty surprised you didn't mention that Ray's flight controls almost exactly like the Feather/Cape power-up in Super Mario World for the SNES. It's literally like what would happen if the Cape was put into a Sonic game. It works really well too because even in SMW, and it's slower pacing, the Cape can really give SMW a spice of Sonic-esque speed and is also a godsend for SMW speed runners.
Genuinely interested to hear your take on Megaman Legends/Legends 2/Tron Bonne based on your Zelda retrospectives alone.
Man King K, I love how objective your videos, you're real fair about it. Great video as always
The one thing I liked about the Egg Reverie boss is that it shows that the seven chaos emeralds are weaker, if not as powerfull as the phantom ruby.
YEAH! Your back! Missed you dude! And now you’re doing mania...can’t wait too hear your opinions! Also...finally subscribing too you, should’ve done that since the sonic 1 retrospective
I was just explaining to a friend how KingK and Mark Brown are my two favorite video game critics in all of criticism. That opening scene was a neat cross-over.
I think your videos and video game analysis are some of the best on TH-cam! Keep it up man!
Can't wait for the biggest criticism of this video to be the way you pronounced Hydro City Zone.
Good stuff though, I agreed with basically everything you said? Just hoping we get a truly original sequel that isn't rushed out the door like Mania, and even Mania Plus were.
You know, It's funny I'm not like staunchly for or against that pronunciation but it makes people angry so I like saying it that way lol
@@KingKlonoa I'm pretty proud that you pronounced it as hy-droh-city
Why is everyone so against pronouncing it how it is spelt?
Atomatic Games there is no city. The pun is more suitable. People probably just get it wrong because every other level in the game has two words.
Atomatic Games Sonic Generations? What about Sonic Mania? That states Hydrocity clear as day. Sonic Generations gets a whole bunch wrong anyway. No need to argue with something already with no authority. You really think they'd leave something as important as naming levels to people who had no knowledge of the English language?
So I just have to accept they somehow forgot to put a space in there to create 2 words that form a name that has nothing to do with the level?
I've never liked Sonics gameplay, and Mania didn't change that when it was first released, thus I've never finished it. I've felt like the only person who didn't enjoy this game, however this video as inspired me to give it another try, by allowing me to think about the gameplay in a refreshing way. Great video as always
You made an interesting comparison, to the other classics. It was honestly refreshing, good job on the video!
Waited a long time for this and it lived up in every way
Thanks man
Great video dude. My biggest problem with Sonic Mania is the lack of new and original stages. Don't get me wrong, the remade stages are great, but the best part of Sonic Mania for me was exploring never seen before stages. Imagine if they made a new 2D Sonic game with all original stages with the same level designer team and composers. That would be hype.
And they would be stupid not to do that. Sonic Mania was such a success, I think Sega is going to keep around Christian Whitehead, Taxman and Stealth around for a while. As long as they're at the helm, I'm very hopeful for the future of the franchise.
This is by far the best sonic game Also, some of the complaints you have about this game are really knit picky Like come on are you seriously complaining about a classic sonic games storyline? In my humble opinion, this is the closest sonic has ever been to being nearly perfect
I appreciate this methodical analysis work (as you've done in all your videos). Thanks for the enjoyable video.
Your sonic videos is why I subscribed thank you I’ve been watch one every morning over breakfast :)
If they give them more freedom in a sequel, combined with learning from the very few mistakes made in Mania, it could honestly be one of the greatest platformers ever made. Who knows if Sega will even give them the chance though.
Fantastic video KingK👍
You where really hard on Mania, and it came from a loving place. Its great to see someone love this game and be critical of it at the same time. Its really clear that Whitehead and his team are amazing and Sega is so bad in its management of Sonic. The wtf moments of no transitions being patched, fixed bosses, and added content show that as amazing as Mania is it was just as rushed as any other Sonic game. Sega executives are disconnected from their American fan base so odds are the sequel wont be an impovement but just a cash grab. They might even tire out the Mania team. Love only takes a programmer so far, I should know I am one. LOL.
you need way more subs, love your videos dude
Your videos are amazing to listen to while writing essays.
You do a helluva retrospective, my man. Keep up the good work!
It's a great game, but I felt some levels relied way too heavy on its unique gimmicks, which I didn't feel were always integrated too well with the overall level. The bosses, while more intricate and difficult than almost anything from the original games, felt.. off somehow. Other than that, it's a really solid game and a fantastic homage to the classics.
You make alot of great points in this video. I'm not a fan of sonic games at all, but Sonic Mania has gotta be one of my favorite platformers of all time and its due to its level design. Its funny how you really want a good story out of these games I had always thought the non-binding aspects of Mania's narrative was the point, as it feels like a throwback to 90's era games story's (Loose and nonsensical). But clearly consistency is important to them otherwise they wouldn't have put more effort into stage transitions with the Encore update.
I'm just hoping a Sonic Mania 2 is on its way, with improvements to its pacing and hopefully mostly consisting of brand new levels. I appreciate what they've done with alot of returning stages but the purple water in chemical plant is something that never should have returned when considering good game design, so I'd like them to apply their modern take on design philosophy in completely new ways.
"This is the part where I thank a lot of people who give me money."
That had me laughing out loud for nearly a full minute. (:
"So, then, what does the future hold?"
Ahahaha..AHAHAHA..IT HAS BEEN FIVE YEARS!!
I think it's pretty clear your interest lies in Classic Sonic, but if you ever had the time or interest I would love to hear what you think about Sonic Adventure. It's definitely a different experience and I don't know how much exposure you've had, but the freedom its mechanics offer give a lot of variety to the way you can master its stages, so I would be absolutely delighted to hear your thoughts, whatever they may be.
I'm an Adventure baby