Sound for Video Session: Timecode Demo
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 28 พ.ย. 2016
- If you're interested in learning how to record and post process dialogue sound for video, please look at my courses available at school.learnlightandsound.com
In this week's session, we demonstrate how free-run timecode works. For those not familiar with timecode, this allows you to more efficiently sync your separately recorded video and sound clips before editing your video. It works by syncing up your camera(s) and audio recorder with the help of timecode generator clocks.
In this demonstration, we show how to do this with a Tentacle Sync, a MozeGear TIG Q28, and a Sound Devices 633 recorder. If your recorder does not have a timecode generator built-in, you can still do this by connecting another timecode generator (like the Tentacle or MozeGear) to your recorder.
Tentacle Sync: tentaclesync.com
Mozegear TIGQ28: www.dvestore.com/mozegear-tig...
Sound Devices 633 Mixer/Recorder: www.dvestore.com/guy-says-gear...
Orca OR-30 Sound Bag: bhpho.to/2mNoPlR
Ethics statement: Some of the links above are Amazon.com, B&H Photo, or other affiliate links.
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Nicely explained ! Simple and easy to understand. Thanks Curtis 😀
Thanks so much Curtis for this Demo. As always very useful !!
Great stuff, Curtis! Thank you! I found your videos while searching for some production sound advice a little while back. Subscribed immediately. Really appreciate the detail and clarity of your work.
As far as timecode setups go, figured I'd throw this option into the ring as well: the Timecode Systems BLINK-enabled devices. It's a wireless ecosystem that provides genlock and timecode. Fairly simple to setup, and a lot of options for customization (just a heads-up, if you use the base station, it is more expensive than the other options you covered.)
So I've been testing out their :pulse mini base station with two :mini trx+ transceivers, and since the system is wireless, one of the first things I did was test for drift. I recorded a 30min clip in which the :pulse was used to generate TC and Sync. The F8 was then jam-synced over a BNC connection with the :pulse's signal. The two :mini trx+ transceivers were then designated as slave units to the :pulse base station.
Movie Slate 8 on an iPad Mini was fed timecode wirelessly from the :pulse mini base station (the :pulse creates its own sub GHz wireless network). The two :mini trx+ units were joined wirelessly to the :pulse's network. One :mini trx+ was then connected to an Ursa Mini 4.6K's Timecode/Reference In jack via a BNC cable. I only had one camera, so I just monitored the timecode on the second :mini trx+.
I hit record and slated at the beginning of the clip, at the 15min mark, and at the 30min mark. With a right-click of the mouse, the audio and video synced in FCPX, and each slate turned out to be accurate to the frame. Which, I'll admit, made me feel a little giddy, haha.
I also ran a test with letting the Zoom F8 record continuously, and shooting several separate shots with the camera (hitting record, stopping, waiting 30 seconds and hitting record again). In FCPX, each one of the shots synced perfectly to the single F8 audio file.
Sorry for the long post, but I was pretty excited about the gear and the tests, and thought this would be a great place to share that excitement. Oh, and it's probably worth noting I'm in no way associated with Timecode Systems. But if the gear continues to be as reliable as my initial tests, I'll shout it from the rooftops (smile).
Hey Tony, thanks for that. Great into! I'll be heading to NAB next month and now that you mentioned this, I'd like to stop by their booth and have a closer look. Thanks again!
This is the best Timecode Jam tutorial I've seen. Thank you for this...
Thanks!
Hey Curtis, if you have a synced sequence, you can "lasso" to select the clips on the timeline, right click and choose "Nest". After you have nested the clips, right click the nested sequence, go to "Multi-camera" and click "Enable". Boom, you're in business and ready to multi-cam edit. The advantage to this I guess is that you don't have to go back and delete all the audio tracks. Bonus tip: when I create the nested sequence, I always name it "[timeline name] for color correction" because when you open that nested sequence, you'll have your original synced clips ready to be adjusted for color matching or other clip-level editing.
Excellent, thanks so much Nick! I knew there had to be an easier way!
Thanks for the amazing video! You’re a great teacher
Thanks Alex!
Very nice info on TC. I would add that my one experience seeing an editor sync 186 clips from 3 cams running TC and my SD633 audio was amazing. Tentacle Sync Studio synced all clips in 30 seconds and produced an XML file in 2 seconds. He pulled the XML and all clip files into Premiere which then began to heat up the iMac CPU and about 2 minutes later all clips were on the timeline synced up and ready to edit. I mention this because in your demo you had some fidlely stuff to do in Premiere and my guy had none of that. It was the first time he ever used Tentacle Sync Studio and first time he ever pulled in an XML file to Premiere. I am not an editor so I can't tell you what he did differently from you but it was completely seamless and blew me away as far as ease of use. He said it was the first time he ever used TC and that if he had not used TC it would have taken him at least 3 days of manual syncing and nudging to do what he did with TC in 3 minutes.
Thanks, good to hear about that experience. The comment from Nick Laws below explains a much quicker way to do what took me a bunch of fiddling to figure out.
Bro. I love these videos they are so good.
Thanks NellyS
Brilliant tutorial! Thanks Curtis!
Thanks for the feedback!
👍
Hello Curtis, is it possible to make a video on a step by step set up to integrate the Tentacle or the TimeCode Systems Sync One to the zoom f4? Another question, if i plug either the tentacle or the sync one to my zoom, then i will need another one to plug into the camera and leave them both on correct?
Thank you very much for this video, Curtis!
I have a question regarding MIC vs LINE: If I leave a (Tentacle) Slave set to LINE, connect it to a DSLR and the Timecode Audio Signal is so loud, that it clips (like you demonstrated on your Camera with the Audio Meters), does that actually prevent the software in postproduction to synch it up (properly)? If not, why is it still important to make sure, that the Level of the Timecode Audio Signal is staying around -12db? Thanks in advance for your response😊
thanks for the video. i am tempted to get a tentacle for when i am doing sound for a camera that does not keep good time and has time code input, or a dslr but for my own project i usually just use wireless camera hops via a sennhieser g2 or g3 and just use synchronize in PPCC from the scratch track sent to the camera.
Yes, completely makes sense. Timecode isn't critical for smaller pieces.
Thanks for this Curtis! Been using Timcodesystems Ultrasync One for my RED Scarlet-W and a Mixpre-3 and it works fantastic. But a thought struck my mind, would there be a risk where the timecode generated by a timecode generator could get “stuck” between two frames on a camera... or do they just work and this would never be an issues. Just thinking about the difference between genlock and timecode sync.
Hi Michael, timecode generators can drift from one another, but that isn't a big risk with the Ultrasync One since they keep themselves synced wirelessly throughout the entire shoot.
This is sort of off topic, but what audio bag model do you show in the beginning? Are you happy with it?
That is the Orca OR-30 and I love it! On my last job we were running and gunning out on the street interviewing people and having the OR-30 attached to me via the Orca harness, it was a dream compared to other setups I've used. It freed me up so that I wasn't fighting with a swinging bag and it is quite light weight.
Details if you're interested: www.learnlightandsound.com/blog/2016/8/23/orca-or-30-sound-recordermixer-bag-zoom-f8-sound-devices-633
Hi Curtis. Thanks first for all these videos! Great material.
I have a D750 that I output to an Atomos Shogun Flame which has timecode and sync and I have a Zoom F4 with timecode in and out (but no sync?) and I'm interested in making sure they're in sync, after your videos I figured out how to jam-sync them together, but I'm interested in genlocking them together to ensure there's no drift, do you know anything about that? Or would having one of them use external timecode solve that problem just as well? (I can imaging needing two cameras in the future, so a solution that works with that would be best).
I do understand that for the most part you don't need to worry about drift until you reach, at a min, 4 hours ( I saw you tracked the F4 timecode for 8 without a frame of drift). But I'm interested in using it for music applications too which is much finickier about having perfect sync.
Hi Joshua, sorry I missed your question earlier. Yes, I believe if you plan to keep them connected that you can essentially gen lock the Atomos to the F4 using a BNC cable so that the F4 is generating the timecode in real-time. I hope that makes sense. Best wishes!
Also, what kind of audio bag do you use? That looks much nicer than the PCF-8 I have for my F4.
That is an Orca OR-30: www.learnlightandsound.com/blog/2016/8/23/orca-or-30-sound-recordermixer-bag-zoom-f8-sound-devices-633?rq=orca%20or-30
Thanks. I've seen these products, but never in action
Just watched it...very concise. I'm recording with it tomorrow. Need just a quick run through cheers!
Good luck!
Hi Curtis, thanks for your great and useful audio gear reviews. It's now almost a year since you posted this demo, I hope it's not to late for a reply. When jam sinking a portable timecode unit from a recorder/mixer, is the jam sink being maintained even after powering off the recorder/mixer? My question relates specifically to the Zoom F4.
Hi Joshua, that depends on the recorder but for most of them, it does not keep the timecode clock running when the recorder is off. You will need to re-sync after turning it back on.
Some of the Sound Devices pro mixers (633) have a "lunchtime" feature where it turns everything off except for the timecode clock but most of the less expensive recorders (e.g., MixPre-10T, Zoom F4, F8) do not have this feature.
Hi Curtis !
I would like to buy the Tentacle Sync to use with my Zoom F4 and Canon 7D MKII
I'm confused about if I need to buy one or two Tentacle Sync to do this.
I know I need one for the Canon 7D but do I also need one for the Zoom F4 TOO ?
Thank you for all your help !
Scott
Hi Scott, no, the F4 has a timecode generator inside it so you just need a Tentacle for each camera. You’ll also need the BNC to 3.5mm TRS cable from Tentacle to sync the F4 to the Tentacle Sync.
Hey Curtis, so if I use my Zoom F6 for external recording, and my a7C to record video, and I use the tentacle sync e or just run the timecode line out from the F6 directly to the a7C mic in, this allows me to now record a bunch of separate video clips and a bunch of separate audio clips, bring all of the files into tentacle sync software or DaVinci resolve, and the video and audio will be synced up without my having to manually track on a piece of paper or in a note on my phone each audio track name that corresponds with each video clip name? Sorry for such a basic question, I'm completely new to external audio recording with time code
Yes, you have the right idea. But, I wouldn't trust Resolve to get it right. It has had issues with converting audio timecode from cameras to metadata and then it doesn't sync. But the Tentacle Sync app does it very well.
Good morning Curtis, would you recommend the Tentacle Sync over the Mozegear Q28? I know the Mozegear has triple AAA batteries, while tentacle has an internal battery.
Yes, I prefer the newer Tentacle Sync E with iOS app control. Very convenient.
@@LearnLightAndSoundSessions Okay thanks...Guess i'll go the Tentacle route.
Hi Curtis,
I shoot airshows at 60fps, yet all Timecode devices max at 30fps.
Will running TC at 30fps be a real problem with syncing in our NLE?
SMTPE timecode is saved in the following format: HH:MM:SS:FF where FF is the frame number. So unfortunately, this probably won't work if you're shooting at 60fps.
One option to consider is using a mixer or audio adapter to feed audio directly to camera. That way the mixer does the critical work of amplifying in the mic signal with greater quality than most cameras will. Best wishes!
This was extremely helpful. You can jam to the Tig instead of the tentacle correct?
Thanks. Yes, You can jam sync the Tig.
Hey Curtis, any updates in PPro and/or Tentacle Sync since you made this video regarding being able to to use timecode sync in PPro when using the audio signal TC in-camera?
Hi Andrew, not that I've heard, but I did pull back my Adobe CC subscription to only include Audition a few months back so I haven't been keeping up. Adobe support should know for certain. Best wishes!
@@curtisjudd As always, thanks Curtis!
Hello Curtis, excellent session, once again, really appreciate your efforts! Question: Say we sync an audio track with the video perfectly by clapperboard method at the beginning, can drifting still happen at the later part of the video? What causes that? Will timecode workflow eliminate drifting problem all together? Thanks in advance.
Hi Mok, timecode actually does not eliminate drift, it just simplifies the process of lining up the in points of the video and audio clips. With timecode, you do have the potential to use a reference point in the middle of a longer clip rather than a reference part at the start so that "evens out" the drift if it is relatively small (e.g., one frame). Drift is usually a result of poor timing on the processor of a camera or audio recorder. Consumer grade cameras typically have more challenges with this but any time you get over about 15 minutes, you can see some drift. Thanks much!
Thanks Curtis! Great stuff!
One of the most informative and clear channel so far, well done again Curtis and thanks for sharing! This video is making me to consider buying a Zoom F4 instead a Tascam DR70D. Though I have one question you should probably clarify: is that possible to sync the recorder with the camera directly, maybe with a specific cable between the TC out of the Zoom to the mic in of the camera? Or those recorders can't send this audio sync signal by themself? I find quite excessive to have to pay one of those expensive little sync boc (tentacle or the other) if the recorder remains close to the camera and the footage keep on single camera setup. I got the Zoom manual file, but did not find the information in it. Maybe a newbie question though....
Hi Alfonse, thanks! It is possible to feed timecode directly from the F4 (or other recorder with TC output) to a camera which has a timecode input. But if the camera only has a microphone input, unfortunately it will not work without some adapting. In theory it might be possible to use an attenuation adapter cable which goes from BNC to 3.5mm TRS and attenuates the line level signal to mic level but I have never seen such a cable on the market. I hope that makes sense.
Sure, was my "feeling" but I was hoping for some twicking possible directly from the unit to make this unit capable for adequate audio TC output. Anyway thanks for the answer!
You can probably make a cable for a very small investment. You will have to incorporate a passive resister attenuator of -60 or -70 db to convert the timecode signal down to mic level. The real issue is how you are going to read the audio recording of timecode (LTC) and setting meta data values for time code in the video files. You can buy a software only verision of Tentacle Synch Studio, but it is not a huge savings over just buying the hardware where the software is included. There is another program called LTC Convert from VideoToolShed the does the conversion but it is not cheap, or you can use an editor such as DaVinci Resolve that includes LTC reading of time code as a basic function of the editor. Unfortunately FCPX does not read LTC nor does Adobe Premiere, Avid may.
Thanks Greg, good insights. And yes, Avid can read linear timecode (LTC).
Thank you Gregg! Actually I found a BNC to 3.5mm TRS cable for Timecode output with attenuator of -40 db but I read your answer now and see that it wont fit if an attenuation for -70 db is needed. Tentacle Sync seems a decent product, but from what I saw from their website, this software for sync the medias is for Apple OS for now. So reading the LTC in Davinci doesn't sound a bad solution for PC users. But maybe it brings more problems to fix than just adding a small clock generator, I do agree.
Hello. Can I use the Timecode in my Sony fx6 to sync with a zoom H6? Can the fx6 jam Timecode into the zoom H6? New filmmaker here learning. I need to start external recording and looking for the best solution.
Technically, yes, sort of. You will have to use one of the inputs on your H6 to record audio timecode, then convert the audio timecode to metadata timecode in post (ideally on macOS with the Tentacle Sync Studio. I can't remember whether the H6 can combine all tracks into a single poly wav file, but that's what you'll want.
Hey Curtis, great video and thank you. Can you still export media option from the app with raw files like braw? Does it create new media files or simply attach the audio track to the existing media? I’m using premiere. Thanks!
Hi Damon, Tentacle Sync Studio supports the following import formats: Supported import formats: Quicktime, AVCHD, R3D, MP4, BWF, WAVE, MXF, CinemaDNG. Does not appear that they have added BRAW support yet. However, DaVinci Resolve handles timecode on BRAW files nicely.
@@curtisjudd Wow. Well that's a deal breaker. I was reading a post on Tentacles forum saying there was a work around, but you're right. Well thanks for the reply and keep up the great work!
Hi, Thank you for the demo on time code ... anybody working in the industry today should watch this. Like all of your videos that I have watched you are very good at presenting information clearly and at a pace in which it can be understood. Thanks so much! The one Question that is hanging out there in the time code realm; when I put a audio track time code on a channel, will the editing software see it and use it. ( as in premier you show it does not) but will AVID! thats what I need to KnowThanks again
Hi, thanks! Yes, Avid does have a feature that will pick up linear time code on an audio channel and sync to picture. I wish Premiere and FCPX would as well.
Thanks! Just getting into the muti cam editing with avid.... I've been out for about 6 years... so there's is a new world order in the video world... shoot with anything and make it work now! :) Your video's have been a great help Thanks!!!
Hey Curtis ive two question regarding timecode. Firstly if the signal coming into the camera from the timecode device is a bit hot does this is anyway affect the ability to sync later in post? Also how problematic would it be to change the frame rate while using a tentacle for example. At weddings im constantly hopping between 24fps and 60fps and im wondering if i was using a tentacle here would that mess up my ability to sync?
Hi, yes, sending too hot a signal into your camera can prevent successful sync later. You'll want to set the appropriate level on the timecode generator and the input level on the camera so that the meters are hitting around -12dB. As for framerate changes, yes, you'll need to change over to the appropriate framerate on your audio recorder and tentacle to achieve successful sync. Are you shooting at 60FPS with audio or is that for slomo work?
The idea was to invest in some tentacles to make ceremony syncing much easier. But often during the ceremony i would switch over to 60fps for say the first kiss to give it that subtle slow mo effect. But seeing that these are really stand alone shots i doubt it would become much of an issue providing the bulk of the ceremony is synced up as normal.
Ah, ok, that makes sense. I agree, those will generally be backed by music or you could include the, "...you may now kiss the bride..." leading into the slo-mo shot.
hi, if I buy a camera that has timecode in and out connectors , can I sync it with the audio recorder directly with a cable ?
Do I have to sync them again each time I turn them on ?
Cameras do NOT have in-built timecode generators (at least all of the cine cameras I've worked with), so you either need to leave the timecode generator or recorder/mixer with an in-built timecode generator connected to the camera through the entire shoot if you want frame accurate sync in post. If you just want to use timecode to get "in the ballpark" in post and then manually slip the audio to get perfect sync, then you should be able to just timecode jam, probably every 2 - 4 hours.
One thing I didn't quite get is at what point does the camera sync with the generator if receiving TC as audio through the mic in? Is it instant? Do you have to be recording with the generator hooked up at all times? I guess what I mean is when can you disconnect the generator from the camera.
Hi Daniel, if the camera does not have a timecode clock in it and you are feeding the generator in through an audio input, you must keep the generator connected to the camera through the entire shoot so that it records to the audio track every time the camera rolls. Hopefully that clarifies, sorry for the confusion.
Always enjoy your video and great learning. Just wonder is there any time code generator that is less expensive than the Zoom F4? Thank you once again,
Yes, the Tentacle Sync, but not a lot less, unfortunately. Perhaps when they are able to produce a larger volume the price will fall.
Thank you.
Great video! Hoping you can help with a question. I'd like to sync my Zoom F4 with my H6 for live music recording of up to 10 tracks. My idea is just to run TC out of the F4 into one of the audio tracks on the H6. My question is, without using something like Tentacle Sync, how does the "audio TC" get read by the NLE? I use both Resolve and Premiere Pro. Even slating isn't reliable in this case because of the varied distance from source to mics. Any ideas?
Hi TCR Productions, yes, Resolve (but not Premiere) will read the TC signal on the audio track and convert it to a meta-data time stamp. In the media tab, right click the clip from the H6 and choose "Update Timecode from Audio - LTC". Once it has that, it can be synced by highlighting both clips, right click, and choose Auto Sync Audio Based on Timecode. You may have to experiment with it as it may expect to find the timecode on the first track or the last track. Good luck!
That's perfect! I'll give it a try over the next few days. Thanks for the quick reply.
I have a Zoom F8n and a Blackmagic 6K camera. Is it best to sync them with a Tentacle E, and then leave the Tentacle connected to the camera all the time? Also, if I'm shooting in a studio, can connect the F8n TC Out to the camera (F8n is in a bag) so they stay sync'd up? Sorry to ramble, just want to do things the right way. Thanks as always!
Hi Mike, with the right cable (BNC to 3.5mm) you could send timecode to the BMPCC6K by just keeping the two connected throughout the shoot. But if you want the freedom to move audio and camera separately, you'll want to use a timecode box of some sort.
@@curtisjudd Thank you!
I have clients asking for synced audio directly from the memory card in the camera. This is usually when I run two cameras at once for interviews/doc work. I shoot with an fs5ii. Last time I synced in post (premiere) the client was upset that they did not get the raw video file directly from my sd card on my fs5. I sent them 2 prores files with 0 compression (since I also recorded to prores). Both files had perfect audio sync. A cam and B cam. But still, the client was displeased. Any way to sync timecode directly to the cards in the camera? Sometimes I roll an a7iii as a B cam as well. Been researching on this and have yet to find an in camera solution. Thanks for this video! Helped me out a ton
Hi, You could run audio from the audio mixer to the mic inputs on the FS5II and FS7II.
Thank you for great informative video Curtis! I'm going to be conducting a series of oral history video interviews with single camera (GH5 when released). Plan is to place lav on subject as well as use hypercardioid mic on boom and record two separate mono channels. Also plan to send audio to camera for 'scratch track'. I'm on the fence about whether I need spend extra $300 and jump for a Zoom F4 w/ timecode support, or if I can get away with audio sync only and buy a Zoom H6 (and save $300). H6 has convenience of also being self contained field recorder for 'b-roll' audio. I envision oral history interviews will be 1-2 hour sessions. I will be using excerpts of the interviews in larger documentary project. I'm wondering if it's worth extra cost and if I'm over complicating the workflow with timecode for single camera. I'm concerned about drift of audio-only sync for long interviews. Willing to slate as needed during production. Post will be done in Premiere Pro. Thank you for any advice you can provide!
Hi Ryan, on most of my projects I just use claps or slate to sync. Timecode is nice for productions where there are more moving parts and bigger crews. But even timecode does not necessarily fix drift issues. If you're doing a long take, cameras and recorders have a tendency to drift. I think you'll find a little less of that with something like the F4, but it depends a lot on the camera involved. As a matter of practice, I generally shoot in clips of 10 minutes or less to help avoid drift issues. You may get lucky but definitely test out your kit before you dive into any long takes. Best wishes on your project, it sounds like a lot of fun!
Thank you again for your insight and well wishes. Based on my research the Panasonic GH5 will support timecode "It also embeds SMPTE-compliant Time Code either in Rec Run or Free Run count-up methods, which makes it easy to synchronize multiple video footage or sound sources in the post production workflow. " (from www.digitalphotopro.com/newswire/panasonic-lumix-dc-gh5-details-and-launch-date/)
If I'm understanding this correctly, would this eliminate the risk of drift in longer takes? Or is 'sync' a different issue than drift in longer takes? ...if you know what I mean.
I think the GH5 will embed the timecode in the file and via its HDMI feed. I believe that with the optional audio unit add-on you can jam sync it to recorders with timecode outputs. Or you could use something like Tentacle Sync. I believe that sync and drift are two separate things. You can sync with timecode and have the first part of the video spot-on but find that one of the devices can still drift during longer takes.
Evening Curtis - just bought the tentacle Sync - great little unit. I know it's a bit off topic but, would love your feed back Re: powering the F4: town between the Hawk-woods NP1-35s OR Swit DV- Li-on s-8770s (Sony style). Using then with a back up of Eneloop pro's in the unit. thanks for your time - Love tour Videos.
Craig
Hi Craig, I Haven't used either of these but will be in the market in the near future after a recent shoot where I burned through some off-brand Sony NP-F style batteries. They ended up getting the job done, but not with a bit of worry on my part. These were no-name brand batteries which I think may have come with one of my Atomos recorders.
In any case, I would look at NP1 types of batteries for their size to power ratio. the Hawk-Woods looks interesting. Best of luck!
Curtis Judd thanks for the reply! I'll let you know how I get on. Thanks again - Craig
Hi Curtis,
Just a tip, never unlink audio and video. Select audio with the alt pressed, it will select only the audio or video, easy to delete or even change the length independently!
Thanks Frank.
Great video do you have any link to the time code generator?
Thanks, yes:
Tentacle Sync: tentaclesync.com
Mozegear TIGQ28: www.dvestore.com/mozegear-tig-q28/#aid=6242
do you know if i am able to run timecode on the zoom HN4 or 5?
Technically, yes, but it would be recorded to one of the inputs so you'd only have one input left for a microphone.
Hey Curtis, I realize this is an old video but had you exported as media it would write file timecode to all clips and you could do the multi cam setup with timecode
Thanks Bryan, yes, definitely a good option.
Watching this in 2020.... Does the tentacle sync studio allow you to export XMLs for Final Cut Pro X yet?
Yes, it does.
Hey, hello again. Great vid, I want to jam a zoom f8 time code out into a cannon c300mk2 film camera using a BCN cable, is that a possibility? thank you.
Yes, but note that if you do not keep them connected, the camera will drift. Ideally, you'd keep an external timecode generator connected to the C300 through the entire shirt.
@@curtisjudd I just needed that straightforward clarification. It's defiantly something I'm going to invest in ASAP. Thanks Curtis 👌🙏
I possible to synchronize the turn on and off of the recorder with che camera?
I've never used it, but see page 78 of the 633 manual to see details on using record run timecode mode.
Is there a way to use the TC in say A7Sii and Jam sync it to the F4/8? What connection would I use for that? How about an HDMI to SDI converter (I don't really know what format the TC inputs on the F4/8 are so) sorry if that is silly.
I see that SD supports Sony A7Sii TC on the MixPre 3/6 but because it doesn't have an internal source I would have to stay tethered with an HDMI cable between the Sony and SD and that seems crazy for location sound.
I understand that I could use an audio channel in the camera and I could use the Tentacle Sync or TIG devices but since the F4/8 supports Jam sync as you have demonstrated I would like to try the reverse and without the additional cost of the separate devices.
Hi Gregory, I don't have a Sony here to test that possibility. My hypothesis would be that it would NOT work. The SDI input is a SMPTE timecode input which I assume is not compatible with the 3G SDI video signal you would convert to from HDMI. I may be mistaken.
The MixPre is made to be mounted under the camera on the tripod. I don't typically work that way, but it is an option for some people. In that case, feeding HDMI timecode to the MixPre is feasible. It also takes HDMI start and stop triggers from many cameras (including many of the Sony a7 series).
Thanks for your fast reply Curtis! I am trying to find a way to sync audio with TC for a timed film contest coming up at the end of July. I am also in the mood to upgrade from my Tascam D60Mkii. I think I will rent an F4/8 and give it a try.
Sounds like a good plan. Let us know what you find!
If your camera had time code built in would the master still be the external recorder ?
Yes, definitely. Unless you a filming with an Arri with the timecode module, I'm not aware of any other cameras which have an in-built timecode generator. They have realtime clocks, but those drift much more quickly. So you'll want a timecode generator for each camera, even if it has a timecode input.
Do you still recommend the Tig timecode card?
No, there are some nicer options these days like the Timecode Systems Ultrasync, Bestso, and Tentacle Sync.
Hi Curtis, I'm going to shoot a doccie in Japan with a Canon C100 and Zoom F4; so no timecode link. I will send the mix down to the camera from the F4. But what's the best TC settings on camera and F4 to be able to sync up recorded tracks individually (vs. the camera mix-down)? Should I use 'Int free run' in the camera and F4? Thanks?
Hi Heinrich, I'm afraid I don't understand your question. Will you be using a timecode generator of some sort connected to the camera? If not, it doesn't much matter because you'll need to sync using the camera mix. Or did I misunderstand your question?
Hmm... let me reformulate - I will probably use the camera mix as final sound, but on occasion I might want to use the recorded tracks from the F4. The question is - if I don't use e.g. Pluraleyez, then would it help to simplify post synching if I were to run the int continuous TC in both camera and recorder?
No, unfortunately, there isn't a way to sync the camera and the F4. The Canon C100 does not have a timecode input. :(
Hi Curtis, I've been eyeing the Canon C100 Mark II. I understand that the C100 does not have a timecode input. Do you know if you can jam sync a Tentacle Sync E to an audio track of the Canon C100 Mark II? Also, do you have any experience with the onboard sound of this camera. I purchased a Mixpre-6 (but haven't opened the box yet) after completing 2 of your courses, and subsequently discovered this camera with what appears to be great video with onboard xlr's. Wanted to see what you though of the onboard sound as it would be appealing to make the setup a little less involved.
Hey guys, Is there a reason why Curtis was using the ZOOM unit to measure the noise floor as oppose to using the Sound Devices one? Also, can noise floor be measured in real-time? I'm completely new to this and am trying my level best to understand "how to do it right". Thanks for any help you may send my way.
Hi Gerry, trying to remember back to last November about measuring noise floor in this timecode demo and not sure I recall the details. Are you by chance referring to a different episode? Thanks!
Oh, I see. I must confess that I do not remember. The important thing is to use the same recorder for each mic and the Zoom F8 has an extraordinarily clean preamp so it was a good choice. It may be because it was easier to set the same gain level for each mic on the Zoom (It displays the gain level digitally while the 633 does not)
That makes sense. Thank you very much for taking the time to answer my query.
Timecode vs scratch audio? Is it the same or is Timecode the best way to sync everything that was shot at the same time? I assume it's better to just scratch audio as Timecode was the way Before scratch audio syncing exist? If you have multiple gopros, sound and video recording equipments, having them have a timecode device wouldn't be so ideal as you have to ensure mounting and it not getting destroyed during certain shots makes it better to just not use it. I assume timecode is great when you are in a controlled environment with many high-end equipment and using scratch audio in expensive budget shoots with no timecode immediately makes the production team look novice and unProfessional but ultimately in post, scratch is the same? What if the frame rates are off slightly over time? Does timecode "heal/correct" this? Can scratch do the same or do you have to break up the things in segments to keep the audios synced? I think.. timecode excels when you have setups running concurrently in different places that have no way of having the same audio feed. I can't come up with a scenario but there has to be a few good ones. Perhaps if people were drag racing or flying a race in 2 different aircraft or more, the audience and other things going on with mics on people on the ground (interview) and in the air (commentary), rather than trying to match it all up in post to determine chronological order and synchrony, timecode makes it simple to do director camera cuts. Basically, make your life easy and do Scratch when all the audio can be recorded on all the equipment and do Timecode when you will have situations where distinct similar audio cannot be picked up on the devices at the same time.
Will these devices use SMPTE timecode with dropframe?
Yes.
What would it sound like if you played the timecode audio?
Like a computer modem from the 1990s.
do you lose timecode if you turn off the SD633?
There is low power mode when you turn off the 633 that is supposed to keep the timecode generator going but some have complained that it drifts more quickly in this mode. I'm not sure as I usually just leave the 633 powered on through the entire production day or turn everything off and re-jam post lunch/dinner.
I'm 5 years late to this party.
Recently (late 2021) I fed timecode from my MixPre 6 in to a wireless transmitter and set two receivers to the same freq - one for each camera. After a short recording I fed the 3 files (one audio and two video) in to the Tentacle Sync demo. Very quickly the files were in sync and an option was there in the app to send a multi-cam file straight to Final Cut X. That's all there was to it!
Too bad FCPX does not natively sync audio tracks with time code recorded on them the way it does with regular audio. I tried.
Wondering how long it takes for jam sync to drift and how much drift can we get away with. I experimented with my MixPre jammed to an external time code generator and after 20-30 minutes they were two or three frames out of sync. That might not seem like a lot but at the end of a long recording those files will get further out of sync.
That’s a lot of drift for 30 minutes. Might want to contact tech support to confirm all is working correctly.
@@curtisjudd Thought so too. I suspect the drifting device was my ancient time code generator. Will invest in a pair of Tentacle soon.
Will the Tentacle Sync software just take a video file (.mov or .mp4) with audio timecode and convert it to a video file with file timecode? Seems an easier way when processing Multicam clips in Premiere.
It can - it is flexible. You can create an XML file, or re-write the video file by just baking in the timecode to a metadata field.
@@curtisjudd That's great. Thanks Curtis. I think my proposed setup is a bit bizarre. My 5D4 feeds timecode into my mixpre 3 through HDMI. The audio into the Mixpre 3 comes from the Comica dual tx/rx. The M6 Mk2 doesn't have time code so my plan is to output TC from the mixpre 3 aux 1 out to a tentacle and then have another tentacle feeding TC to the M6 mk 2 which will have the second comica tx. I just need to buy the tentacles. Hopefully this will sync everything if I have TC out from the 5D4 as free run. Is there an easier way to do this?......lol
EDIT:- Got it wrong. TC out from Mixpre 3 is from stereo out which you set up in output advanced menu. Stereo Out = LTC. So Timecode to Mixpre is HDMI in and pass through is Stereo Out. I hope I got this right........ At the end of the day I'm just trying to save myself the price of a 3rd Tentacle. My budget as a hobbyist is limited (by the wife).
Graham, you'll just need a Tentacle for each camera. Do you have the Series 2 version of the MixPre-3? If not, you will also need a tentacle for the MixPre. Camera to MixPre timecode doesn't work in this scenario if I understand your setup.
@@LearnLightAndSoundSessions Many thanks for your help Curtis. I made a short video to better demonstrate what it is I am trying to achieve th-cam.com/video/yJCHJa3ig3A/w-d-xo.html
@@Graham_Wood Thanks Graham. Any luck by posing this as a question to Sound Devices support? My suspicion is that the MixPre is not designed to receive and pass timecode on at the same time. Either receive or send, not both at the same time.
which mode of tc has the 633?
Most all of them: Free Run, Record Run, time-of-day, etc. Is there a particular use case you're considering? Also, the Sound Devices website includes the documentation for the 633 which can provide all of the details. Best wishes!
Anyone know if the Mixpre 3 ii can be used as a master as easily as this?
Yes, works the same.
@@curtisjudd thank you.
If I am not using timecode but forget to put the timecode off, will it create problem in the post in syncing?
If you're using a slate or syncing by waveform, no, it won't be a problem.
@@curtisjudd but my timecode was running in free run in 30fps, and my video was running in 24fps.will it create a problem? Eventually I will sync with clap manually.
@@fanofnaturefilms486 In post, when you sync via clap, the timecode is entirely irrelevant on both the video and sound clips.
@@curtisjudd means it won't create any problem in syncing?
@@fanofnaturefilms486 correct, no problem with syncing. Test it. 😀
So no more need for slates then?
When productions use timecode, they still usually use a slate as backup in case something doesn't work with the timecode (e.g., battery runs out on one of the TC generators, etc.)
But yes, you wouldn't have to use a slate.
.. Thank you ! …
You are welcome!
No body sells the Mozgear TIFQ28 any more
Could be discontinued now that it is 5 years after this was recorded.
yall should listen to what timecode sounds like, it's pretty funny.
A bit like old-school modems.
can't see anything
Better to watch this updated video on Timecode instead: th-cam.com/video/o36XYOPp0BE/w-d-xo.html
honey!... I need to spend another $1000 on ANOTHER field Recorder
Haha! Not necessarily. :)
A lot of work for not getting sync. A hand clap seems to be faster, better and cheaper. Things seem to have improved in 2020 though.
It is pretty important and massively time saving for proper narrative films where you have to sync 10s to 100s of clips.
@@curtisjudd Thank you for answering. I expected timecoding to work; but when I saw that your result was out of sync, my hope dwindled. You write that the clip is in sync in real-life. I listen in real-live and it doesn't sound in sync to me. Am I wrong? Most demonstrations of timecode on TH-cam end in excuses without showing real synchronization. I found one showing good synchronization: th-cam.com/video/Eul1ArNHj1w/w-d-xo.html
@@fuglbird Don't judge the sync results from a TH-cam video - TH-cam has had a tendency to be out of sync from time to time in the last several months since live-streaming has become wildly popular. It was in sync on my computer.
@@curtisjudd OK. Thanks.