I enjoy watching all your videos but I simply wanted to "Thank You" for making this particular video... I swapped my springs about a week ago and have found that I MUCH prefer the stock E61 spring over the provided flow control spring.
Good choice with the original spring. I tested and came to the same conclusion a few years back and I’ve never doubted the choice since. Having a consistent and soft preinfusion lets me control better and, if someone who doesn’t know about paddle operatiom uses the machine, you can leave the paddle set to 8-9 bar and it’ll run as if the controller isn’t even there. Very versatile.
I'm pretty glad I watched this video right before and quickly after having a Profitec Flow Control Kit installed in my Lelit Mara X. (I'd given it into maintenance, and the tech guy had suggested to swap the Lelit's original coated mushroom with a stainless steel one anyways, so I thought I'll chip in some more bucks to give flow control a try after two years of using the Lelit without one.) With the Profitec Spring, Flow Control was just as unsatisfying as described in the video. It kinda worked but felt pretty jittery and hectic. It really took very little time and skill to put the stock spring back in, and now it's much more fun to use. I guess using the stock spring makes certain uses of flow control impossible, but don't really seem to be the uses I'm after. (I asked the tech guy about leaving the stock spring in - he claimed it would render the Flow Control pretty pointless. I found the video more convincing than him, though.) Flow Control seems to have somewhat limited use in the Lelit Mara X in any event - its stock flow is like 5 ml/s, and even if you open the valve to 2 rotations, it doesn't get to much more than 6 ml/s. (So, in the terms of Whole Latte Love, you'd only have a range from low to medium flow, but no real high flow.) Still, now I can easily pre-infuse some roasts for a longer time before I ramp up, I can gently ramp down at the end of some shots, I can pull 1:5 ratio shots at around 6 bars - I can have some fun fiddling around and I even had some pleasant results already. My girlfriend, on the other hand, who just wants to pull a decent shot as conveniently as possible, doesn't have to fiddle with the mechanism. She can just leave the valve at stock flow and benefit from the slow pressure build-up the stock spring allows as usual. So, thanks a lot for the vid!
After watching your video, I removed my Coffee Sensor spring and installed the heavier OEM Profitec spring and I find I much prefer it as well. Thanks for the tip. That OEM spring is quite a bit tougher to install than the lighter Coffee Sensor spring. After making the change, I discovered my adjustment was off on the cap/knob. I originally installed it too close to the mushroom and it was not closing all the way. Adjusting that was an improvement also. There is definitely more control in the function with the OEM spring.
@@wiredgourmet Not sure who you are responding to, maybe Tim Gerber below. My Profitec is the Pro 600 like yours. I did have a thermometer in the group plug, but it was replaced with the pressure gauge that came with Coffee Sensor flow control.
The Auto pre-infusion on the E61 group is pretty brief, it's just a mini pause, but you're right, it is there and probably does help, but not much talk about it. I had it on my previous machine enabled even though I had flow control on it, and it worked well, but on my current machine I've got the stiffer spring just because it came that way and I've been too lazy to bother changing it, but I think you've inspired me to change it.
Bezzera has a flow control set with offset handle, supposedly shields your hands from heat from the group head. Might be worth checking out. I do believe that other manufacturers have their control handles move either more or less freely (Lelit Bianca, for instance). I have also heard that flow control on vibe pump is a bit more finicky than rotary. Great video!
You may also try to decrease the pressure at the end of the shot. The main benefit I see from pressure and flow profiling is to be gentle with the puck when it eroded at the end.
Unscrew the round adjustment handle. Slide some clear hose over the hot shaft. Punch hole and screw the ball handle back in. I did this to mine and it's works perfect, not even a little hot to touch
I really appreciated this video. I installed flow control on my Alexia Evo a couple years ago and it really didn't let me dial in the flow/pressure to my liking. I was never able to get the group head pressure to stay consistently at 8 bar like yours showed. I may do a full reinstall with the stock spring now to see if I can garner a bit more control but, overall, it has not worked as desired.
As a new subscriber, I’ve been digesting quite a bit of your catalogue through Christmas/New Year’s so I’ll offer a broad thank-you for a host of invaluable episodes. Your follow up review on the Eureka Oro Mignon single dose grinder put it squarely back on my new grinder short list. Still not sure about a flow control kit. I think there are other steps I need to take first. Again, a big thanks for your work.
The flow control on my Decent DE1 works great. As does the temp and pressure control 😃 They are still working on water tank level control, as it currently suckkkks.
Great video! Really enjoyed how you covered using both springs. Haven't seen that in other reviews before. How do you think a rotary pump would behave differently than a vibratory pump, if at all, using this flow control solution?
rotaries have insanely higher flow capabilities than your usual Ulka E5 vibes. Given the same gicleur orifice diameter, you're likely to get higher water debit (to a point) because rotaries have the flow capability to pressurize the entire system, so whatever the smallest orifice diameter is is what will be limiting flow rate at the pump's relief pressure. In short: Given the same setting on the flow control, a rotary is probably going to have higher water debit.
I use the flow control device to develop brew recipes using the water grouphead flow rate rather than trying to control the grouphead pressure. It allows me to position the flow control at specific positions for a 3ml/s preinfusion, 7ml/s main extraction, and 4ml/s for the post infusion ramp down. This way, I'm not adjusting the flow control lever to a specific grouphead pressure.
great Video, i have made the change yesterday (reinstalled the stock spring). Preinfusion is much more controllable and i can just ignore the flow control valve if i don't want to fiddle around with it. It was not possible to do this with the stronger spring, because the shots would end up beeing way too sour.
Fantastic video - did not know about the built in pre-infusion in the e61. I ended up purchasing a Lelit Bianca over a profitec because of the issues with the flow control paddle kit that you describe. I have found it mostly useful for slow pre-infusions (slayer style) and to manage shots that go awry. I’ll be very interested to see your long term conclusions.
You could mimic lever espresso with this. Start preinfusion, let it sit for 5-10 seconds or more. Then start at 9 bar, and gradually drop to zero…. and even then stop the shot the moment it starts blonding too much.
Thank you so much so basically, instead of fiddling and changing in the back of the machine for the pressure which set very high around 13 bars on my Apartamento rocket machine. I can just install this and control it myself to limit to 10 or 9 bars, correct?
Awesome video as always, by the way, where do you usually search information to do this videos and understand how does every part of the machine work?(I usually search for videos on TH-cam but it's pretty simple and I would like a deeper explanation like yours)
I've done quite a lot of experimenting with my Profitec 600 e61 and flow control over the past few years. I've come to use a profile that offers a quick fill (to avoid a top to bottom extraction gradient), a pressure hold (2-3 bar) and then a controlled ramp up to full pressure (8 bar) with a lever like decline. For me it works with coffees of all roasts levels while only requiring an adjustment of the hold phase (from none up to 30 seconds). I've tried to post some links but my comments wouldn't show up.
@@wiredgourmet Understood. I posted a link above to the video I shot detailing the technique I arrived at after a lot of thinking and experimenting. There is a link to the HB discussion in the description of that video. My technique has changed since I made that video, but only slightly.
Dear team, I hope you are well. I have the Proftic 700 and recently started dripping a lot of water from the flow control down the bottom. Is this something that can be fixed? please advise on this matter
Great video! I‘m also considering upgrading my Appartamento with a flow control kit. The only thing that is keeping me from it is that I would have to let go of my group thermometer. And knowing my machine, temperature can vary quite a bit and the group stalls quite often. So on a dual boiler E61 it might be better, but in addition to the strong fluctuations in my machine HX E61 machines also have the problem that varying flow affects brewing temperature since slower flow means that water is passing through the HX element slower than normal which would result in higher temperatures of the water being delivered to the group. Of course the thermal mass of the group is quite large so it’s probably not a huge issue, but for me temperature stability (which I can achieve quite well with my group thermometer by knowing when and how much to flush) is more important to me than flow at the moment.
Totally agree that temp regulation on HX is a mysterious black art :) But perhaps, with experience, you've developed a feel for it, and don't need the thermometer nowadays? Maybe, before spending 250 or so on a flow kit, you just replace the plug and try her out for a few days, judging by taste?
I also want to Test this on my e61 Maschine. But on many channels i saw the Dimmer mod for example a gaggica Classic. Do you think this is also possible on those pumps?
Hey! Nice video, but I don't really understand why people call this flow control... Flow is not even measured! Sure, you are manipulating flow restriction (non-linear) with the valve, and if there were markings somewhere it could act as a basic open loop flow control. But the way it's actually used, by referencing the pressure gauge, it's more like pressure control with flow restriction as the manipulated variable.
@@NANA-gy7yx my dude, if you have yours and like it, that’s fine, but it’s lower quality compared with something from ECM or Profitec and that’s not up for debate. It’s made to a price point and Lelit cutting corners in certain areas is what allows them to include more advanced and upgraded components in other places. There’s no denying this reality. Enjoy yours. I dont need to be challenged over it because you like it.
I posted a followup to this video here: th-cam.com/video/B6cZ8LUraOI/w-d-xo.html
You have no Idea how refreshing it is to see a person really know their stuff on e61's. Keep up the good work!👍
I'm the guy the other guys pretend to be :)
I laughed out loud (literally) when you discussed the oh so special periscope manometer ha!
I enjoy watching all your videos but I simply wanted to "Thank You" for making this particular video... I swapped my springs about a week ago and have found that I MUCH prefer the stock E61 spring over the provided flow control spring.
Good choice with the original spring. I tested and came to the same conclusion a few years back and I’ve never doubted the choice since. Having a consistent and soft preinfusion lets me control better and, if someone who doesn’t know about paddle operatiom uses the machine, you can leave the paddle set to 8-9 bar and it’ll run as if the controller isn’t even there. Very versatile.
So that means just don’t screw bottom of e61 just the top of it?
I'm pretty glad I watched this video right before and quickly after having a Profitec Flow Control Kit installed in my Lelit Mara X. (I'd given it into maintenance, and the tech guy had suggested to swap the Lelit's original coated mushroom with a stainless steel one anyways, so I thought I'll chip in some more bucks to give flow control a try after two years of using the Lelit without one.)
With the Profitec Spring, Flow Control was just as unsatisfying as described in the video. It kinda worked but felt pretty jittery and hectic. It really took very little time and skill to put the stock spring back in, and now it's much more fun to use.
I guess using the stock spring makes certain uses of flow control impossible, but don't really seem to be the uses I'm after. (I asked the tech guy about leaving the stock spring in - he claimed it would render the Flow Control pretty pointless. I found the video more convincing than him, though.)
Flow Control seems to have somewhat limited use in the Lelit Mara X in any event - its stock flow is like 5 ml/s, and even if you open the valve to 2 rotations, it doesn't get to much more than 6 ml/s. (So, in the terms of Whole Latte Love, you'd only have a range from low to medium flow, but no real high flow.)
Still, now I can easily pre-infuse some roasts for a longer time before I ramp up, I can gently ramp down at the end of some shots, I can pull 1:5 ratio shots at around 6 bars - I can have some fun fiddling around and I even had some pleasant results already.
My girlfriend, on the other hand, who just wants to pull a decent shot as conveniently as possible, doesn't have to fiddle with the mechanism. She can just leave the valve at stock flow and benefit from the slow pressure build-up the stock spring allows as usual.
So, thanks a lot for the vid!
After watching your video, I removed my Coffee Sensor spring and installed the heavier OEM Profitec spring and I find I much prefer it as well. Thanks for the tip. That OEM spring is quite a bit tougher to install than the lighter Coffee Sensor spring. After making the change, I discovered my adjustment was off on the cap/knob. I originally installed it too close to the mushroom and it was not closing all the way. Adjusting that was an improvement also. There is definitely more control in the function with the OEM spring.
@@wiredgourmet Not sure who you are responding to, maybe Tim Gerber below. My Profitec is the Pro 600 like yours. I did have a thermometer in the group plug, but it was replaced with the pressure gauge that came with Coffee Sensor flow control.
@@akquicksilver Thanks for sorting me out. I did think I was replying to Tim. Apologies for making your signal to noise ratio worse :)
What a brilliant video can't believe I've just found your channel after years of coffee making
The Auto pre-infusion on the E61 group is pretty brief, it's just a mini pause, but you're right, it is there and probably does help, but not much talk about it. I had it on my previous machine enabled even though I had flow control on it, and it worked well, but on my current machine I've got the stiffer spring just because it came that way and I've been too lazy to bother changing it, but I think you've inspired me to change it.
Straightforward explanation and I appreciate your efforts.
Bezzera has a flow control set with offset handle, supposedly shields your hands from heat from the group head. Might be worth checking out. I do believe that other manufacturers have their control handles move either more or less freely (Lelit Bianca, for instance). I have also heard that flow control on vibe pump is a bit more finicky than rotary. Great video!
great video, first person ive seen explain the pre-infusion valve
This is so meditative! I love it.
You may also try to decrease the pressure at the end of the shot. The main benefit I see from pressure and flow profiling is to be gentle with the puck when it eroded at the end.
Unscrew the round adjustment handle.
Slide some clear hose over the hot shaft.
Punch hole and screw the ball handle back in.
I did this to mine and it's works perfect, not even a little hot to touch
Great YT vid, very professional. Thank you.
I really appreciated this video. I installed flow control on my Alexia Evo a couple years ago and it really didn't let me dial in the flow/pressure to my liking. I was never able to get the group head pressure to stay consistently at 8 bar like yours showed. I may do a full reinstall with the stock spring now to see if I can garner a bit more control but, overall, it has not worked as desired.
As a new subscriber, I’ve been digesting quite a bit of your catalogue through Christmas/New Year’s so I’ll offer a broad thank-you for a host of invaluable episodes. Your follow up review on the Eureka Oro Mignon single dose grinder put it squarely back on my new grinder short list. Still not sure about a flow control kit. I think there are other steps I need to take first. Again, a big thanks for your work.
The flow control on my Decent DE1 works great. As does the temp and pressure control 😃 They are still working on water tank level control, as it currently suckkkks.
Great video! Really enjoyed how you covered using both springs. Haven't seen that in other reviews before. How do you think a rotary pump would behave differently than a vibratory pump, if at all, using this flow control solution?
rotaries have insanely higher flow capabilities than your usual Ulka E5 vibes. Given the same gicleur orifice diameter, you're likely to get higher water debit (to a point) because rotaries have the flow capability to pressurize the entire system, so whatever the smallest orifice diameter is is what will be limiting flow rate at the pump's relief pressure.
In short: Given the same setting on the flow control, a rotary is probably going to have higher water debit.
Rotary ramps up a bit faster, so the stock spring might be a bit more helpful.
I use the flow control device to develop brew recipes using the water grouphead flow rate rather than trying to control the grouphead pressure. It allows me to position the flow control at specific positions for a 3ml/s preinfusion, 7ml/s main extraction, and 4ml/s for the post infusion ramp down. This way, I'm not adjusting the flow control lever to a specific grouphead pressure.
Great video, it was to be expected.
I don't even have an E61 machine but it was explained very well.
Excellent video, thanks
great Video, i have made the change yesterday (reinstalled the stock spring). Preinfusion is much more controllable and i can just ignore the flow control valve if i don't want to fiddle around with it. It was not possible to do this with the stronger spring, because the shots would end up beeing way too sour.
Fantastic video - did not know about the built in pre-infusion in the e61.
I ended up purchasing a Lelit Bianca over a profitec because of the issues with the flow control paddle kit that you describe.
I have found it mostly useful for slow pre-infusions (slayer style) and to manage shots that go awry. I’ll be very interested to see your long term conclusions.
How is your Bianca? I am abit confused on it's built quality but like it's features and design!
The flow control on my e61 works smoothly, and is able to use a wider range of turning
You could mimic lever espresso with this. Start preinfusion, let it sit for 5-10 seconds or more. Then start at 9 bar, and gradually drop to zero…. and even then stop the shot the moment it starts blonding too much.
I love love love your vids😊
Thank you so much so basically, instead of fiddling and changing in the back of the machine for the pressure which set very high around 13 bars on my Apartamento rocket machine. I can just install this and control it myself to limit to 10 or 9 bars, correct?
So leave the spring in. This means I don’t need to to unscrew the bottom of the e61 group? Just the top.
what flow control kit is this? do u have a link? thx!
Awesome video as always, by the way, where do you usually search information to do this videos and understand how does every part of the machine work?(I usually search for videos on TH-cam but it's pretty simple and I would like a deeper explanation like yours)
I've done quite a lot of experimenting with my Profitec 600 e61 and flow control over the past few years. I've come to use a profile that offers a quick fill (to avoid a top to bottom extraction gradient), a pressure hold (2-3 bar) and then a controlled ramp up to full pressure (8 bar) with a lever like decline. For me it works with coffees of all roasts levels while only requiring an adjustment of the hold phase (from none up to 30 seconds). I've tried to post some links but my comments wouldn't show up.
Yes, YT treats links as spam. Feel free to describe any other results or insights like you did here.
@@wiredgourmet Understood. I posted a link above to the video I shot detailing the technique I arrived at after a lot of thinking and experimenting. There is a link to the HB discussion in the description of that video.
My technique has changed since I made that video, but only slightly.
@@wiredgourmet I agree about leaving the original spring as that was the same conclusion I came to.
Dear team, I hope you are well. I have the Proftic 700 and recently started dripping a lot of water from the flow control down the bottom. Is this something that can be fixed? please advise on this matter
How about to install custom handle on that flow control kit? Would that be possible? Thanks for great content!
I love mine!
the CRM3200D is not E61.
can I install a needle valve on that machine or is a dimmer mod for the pump enough?
thx
Great video! I‘m also considering upgrading my Appartamento with a flow control kit. The only thing that is keeping me from it is that I would have to let go of my group thermometer. And knowing my machine, temperature can vary quite a bit and the group stalls quite often. So on a dual boiler E61 it might be better, but in addition to the strong fluctuations in my machine HX E61 machines also have the problem that varying flow affects brewing temperature since slower flow means that water is passing through the HX element slower than normal which would result in higher temperatures of the water being delivered to the group. Of course the thermal mass of the group is quite large so it’s probably not a huge issue, but for me temperature stability (which I can achieve quite well with my group thermometer by knowing when and how much to flush) is more important to me than flow at the moment.
Totally agree that temp regulation on HX is a mysterious black art :) But perhaps, with experience, you've developed a feel for it, and don't need the thermometer nowadays? Maybe, before spending 250 or so on a flow kit, you just replace the plug and try her out for a few days, judging by taste?
@@wiredgourmet Any chance you'll explore the dark art of temperature management/flushing on HX e61 machines? That's a video I'd love to watch.
What is the average time from start to finish? More than 25-30sec?
I also want to Test this on my e61 Maschine. But on many channels i saw the Dimmer mod for example a gaggica Classic. Do you think this is also possible on those pumps?
So, is it worth a 200 euro expense?
Adore the GS3 hateration 😭
How come yo uhave no puck degredation? The pressure when fully opened is constant 8 bars.... mine usually falls with time
Match the dose to the basket: th-cam.com/video/SyGJXRlexmc/w-d-xo.html
is the espresso really better with the pressure profiling?
Not really, although a long-ish preinfusion will make a difference
Would the stock spring trick work in a rocket appartamento?
Definitely
You sound like Zack from Jerry Rig Everything lol
fancy 😉
new subscriper i like this channel, thanks
Hey! Nice video, but I don't really understand why people call this flow control... Flow is not even measured! Sure, you are manipulating flow restriction (non-linear) with the valve, and if there were markings somewhere it could act as a basic open loop flow control. But the way it's actually used, by referencing the pressure gauge, it's more like pressure control with flow restriction as the manipulated variable.
Keep stock
NO!
They are actually trying with a 3000$ machine, to imitate a direct lever machine 😏
Lelit Bianca. Period.
Built to a lower quality standard and not as nice, semi-upgraded features aside.
@@heytchap what made you say that?
@@NANA-gy7yx I’ve used both?
@@heytchap elaborate on what made you decide it was lower quality and which version you have or used please
@@NANA-gy7yx my dude, if you have yours and like it, that’s fine, but it’s lower quality compared with something from ECM or Profitec and that’s not up for debate. It’s made to a price point and Lelit cutting corners in certain areas is what allows them to include more advanced and upgraded components in other places. There’s no denying this reality. Enjoy yours. I dont need to be challenged over it because you like it.