Work-alike without drama and full documentation are preconditions to Pi clones becoming a thing. Yeah, it's hard, so was making the first full PC clone, if you know your Wintel history.
I have been saying this under so many pi killer videos. The value of the pi is not in the hardware it's in the ecosystem. Supurb documentation, software support and community. Turning out a board with the same plugs is easy. Actually supporting your users very much something else and only the pi really has that. And it's why even businesses turn to it.
@@Knowbody42 so, they had stock problems? Those are slowly being fixed. Doesn't change the fact that most competitors are crap everywhere it counts. What use are they when you cannot even boot them? Or bugs and lack of documentation prevent you from delivering your application.
@@bzuidgeest Instead of blaming me or insulting me for the fact that it's never been in stock any time I've checked, maybe you could just admit that it's a problem.
And this is why upstream kernel support is a good thing. Otherwise you are stuck with a pile of hacks running on the vendor SDK (that is itself a pile of hacks on top of an old Linux kernel). Or as the pros call it: "the vanilla embedded linux experience"
But yet he took a difference stance when Red Hat made moves because Rocky, Alma, CloudLinux, and Oracle were not doing the same. Also they were not just using parts of RHEL they were directly ripping off RHEL and reselling it. All of the code is still available in the upstream repositories because that is how Red Hat works.
@@nullify. Incorrect. All of the source code used to build RHEL is committed upstream first. Do you want the source Red Hat uses for say systemd? Look to the systemd project. Want to see the source Red Hat uses for Gnome? Look to the Gnome project. Those upstream sources then get bundled into the Fedora distribution which is Red Hat sponsored. At specific intervals the Fedora project is cloned to create a CentOS Stream. RHEL is build from the CentOS Stream sources. So what are the differences between CentOS Stream and RHEL? A couple of things, the exact commit to CentOS Stream used in RHEL is not disclosed, and there are times, due to InfoSec concerns, that a security related patch will be applied to RHEL before being submitted upstream and/or to CentOS Stream. There is nothing stopping anyone from taking the same source of code used to build RHEL, referring to CentOS Stream, and building a competing product. What Red Hat has stopped is someone taking their product, rebranding it and competing directly with them. Let me attempt to put it a different way. Say you also ran a tech related TH-cam/Instagram/TikTok/Vimeo channel. There is no reason you couldn't take the content from each of Jeff's videos and create your own covering the same topics. Happens all the time. What would be unacceptable is for you to take Jeff's videos and repost them on a different platform, such as Instagram or TikTok, and claim to be 100% Jeff Geerling. *Full Disclosure* I am a TAM at Red Hat and the opinions expressed are my own.
The BigTreeTech CM clone (and their raspberry clones) are mostly for running Klipper 3D printer control software. It does not need to be terribly powerful to be good enough for all Klipper features
I recently bought their Pi 4 clone for this. I wouldn't buy any other clones due to all the compatibility issues and whatnot, but the BTT clone for its intended purpose shouldn't be an issue.
The one question I have for that CM clone being one of the only ones not targeting high performance is how power efficient is it - don't need screaming fast all the time you might want to use a SOM like the CM4 but if the slower one isn't efficient enough you are far better off just having the CM4 and that ridiculous excess of power for this job.
The one question I have for that CM clone being one of the only ones not targeting high performance is how power efficient is it - don't need screaming fast all the time you might want to use a SOM like the CM4 but if the slower one isn't efficient enough you are far better off just having the CM4 and that ridiculous excess of power for this job.
@@Lord_zeel afaik it's fine as "drop in replacement" even for general purpose as long as you are ok with the lower CPU performance, 100mbit ethernet and the Mali GPU. It's officially supported by Armbian (it is similar to RaspberryOS but it supports other SBCs) with upstream kernel.
TLDR: If you have the time & knowledge to play around with a board, clone boards potentially better than a raspberry pi. If you're lacking one of those two, however, you're gonna have a bad time
I think there's a reason why Chromecast switched from stick to a dongle form factor 😅 seems like an accident waiting to happen with that big board. Nice to see that the btt/biqu one worked without issues! Currently waiting to install one to my printer. Though I definitely won't hesitate to replace it with an official cm4, if I run in to issues. Can't beat the support raspberry pi has!
As always, great video! Thanks for mentioning Pi-Cast KVM. Pi-Cast KVM benefits from the open-source community, so we would like to contribute to the community by open-source the project schematic. Before this, there were no open-source documents about hardware on the market. Anyone wanting to develop their ip-kvm-related hardware can learn from it.
Waiting for that, since, well, your HW seems one of the better for makers as alternative for RPi. BTW - when updates for u-boot on La-Frite? Last one is 2021 :)
Your own interview with RPi said supply was never an issue demand was which skyrocketed in 2021. Supply was higher in 2021 and 2022 than it ever had been previously but people were hoarding them for some reason.
It was a two-pronged problem-supply was constrained, and when that started happening, hoarding increased. And that constrained the available stock even further. It was a negative feedback loop, and until Raspberry Pi could clear their manufacturing bottlenecks (mostly the BCM2711 chip), it was an impossible situation.
I used to think the same "why not just get a cheaper *insert many SOMs* anyway" until I actually bought an orange pi and installed octoprint on it... So much more complicated than doing it on a Raspberry Pi
The other boards have some serious catching up to do, and let's be real, they probably won't ever catch up. It's already a niche market and there's no way most projects will put effort into supporting all these niche in a niche boards, when raspberry pi is so widely available, reasonable priced and does the job super well.
There must be a special cage in hell for those who think Discord is a good tool for anything even a bit more serious than a chit-chat, let alone documentation, support and substitution of proper technical forums.
Seriously I hate this move to discord so much. It's ruining the ability to find info through search engines. And that's already getting more difficult as is, we don't need more things killing search.
I disagree, it's much better for dev discussions, helping new people, etc. It's more like talking face-to-face than waiting for someone to reply to your email/GitHub issue
@@honzaled github and mailing lists are very formal dev channels, certainly not for discussions. As said above, Discord might seem handy for that, but only if you hate yourself and your userbase, while enjoying 'discussing' same things over and over again, loosing everyones time, since info is no more structured, nor indexed with search engines. It is a spawn of satan, made for niche groups & communities like streamers' fan zone.
Jeff, your videos are, for lack of any better words, fantastic! Your Tube site is now my first go-to site for anything related to the rise of the tiny computers (and other compute-related gear) for everything from industrial control to fun home projects. Your style is straightforward, your production quality is top-notch and seamless, and you are guru-level at making what can be rather complicated stuff consumable by a wide audience, and I love your sense of humor. Along with all of that, you have an ethic that is unquestionable. Your criticisms are extremely fair and are always explained in full, and I also love the fact that you will call out vendors that take questionable shortcuts on their way to making sales, such as skipping documentation, or by far the worst, using open-source code in their product without attribution in violation of licensing terms. As far as I'm concerned, your content is within 6-sigma of perfection. Keep up the amazing work!
RPImager 1.8.1! Kidding aside, an impressive amount of work went into creating this video. Thank you for presenting all these alternatives to the CM4. Not in the market for one myself but worthwhile to stay informed. Happy Thanksgiving and whatever you do, don't allow Red Shirt Jeff to deep-fry the turkey.
This CM4 clone army reminds me again of one of my favorite lines from a fantasy novel. Said in my own words: "Any idiot can't raise an army. The problems start at lunch."
Disappointing that the support for most of these clones are severely lacking...on the bright side, I'm really looking forward to your upcoming PiKVM video reviewing all of them! As always, awesome stuff Jeff!
I appreciate your take on this...I've always been fascinated by these things and because it's so geeky and technical, it just satisfies my curiousity about them.
Honestly I’m over the raspberry pi. They were impossible to get and it turns out you can get perfectly fine micro PCs on the used market for just a few dollars more that have tons of support, tons of peripherals, and no waiting lists, or special websites to track down which vendor has one in stock for the next 20 minutes
I scrolled down specifically to type something similar to this. I don't care about raspberry pi anymore. Can't get CM4? No worries, keep them. I'll get something else.
Depends so much on what you want one for as to if that can ever be good enough as a substitute. As none of the micro PC are anywhere near as embedable into your projects, and ones that cheap compared to a Pi at MRRP are usually very slow, and quite possibly being ex-corporate machines have crap like a locked bios you won't know about from the listing, and might well be using the Dell style PC like but all the parts have custom connectors and footprints - those mini PC are a bit of a minefield. But if you only needed a 'small' working computer they might be fine.
Couldn't agree more. The cost went too high, couldn't get them at any price. Unless something changes bigtime I'll look elsewhere. Get them out on the shelves and drop the prices significantly.
I'm really excited to see how a future CM5 works with the current ecosystem on expansion boards. The Pi5's differences with camera ports and PCIE might mean it too behaves a bit differently, though I expect the Pi Foundation to update things and ensure its compatible with as many things as they can.
Man that Edgebox is looking mighty for metering/ meter cabinet/ PV applications. I was looking for a rpi "mini server enclosure" with m2 support half a year ago and ended up going for the Argon. The fact that the Edge is even bringing RS485/Modbus support is really handy - you don't need an external Modbus USB Stick or an external RS485-to-TCP module to hand over Modbus to the RPI running e.g. Home Assistant!
Back in the day, the test for compatibility was "Does it run Flight Simulator?". I remember attending a large, national PC show where trade potential purchases were walking around with their 5.25" floppy with Flight Simulator in order to do that test.
Getting my Pair of RK1s on Saturday cant wait to toy with them in my Turing Pi 2 board! i'll be looking forward to your content on it as well @Jeff Geerling
@@JeffGeerling I dropped the idea to the Libre Computer guys (that make the potato), and they said "Maybe next year." I'm excited. The battery life on that could get me through a whole day of basic notes and writing.
I use a regular Wio Terminal for a wall mounted panel outside my office and quite like it. Those re:Terminal's look super awesome and I'm looking forward to your projects with them!
Those HMI industrial looking pi touchscreen doodads look exactly like what I'm looking for to setup some kind of jukebox kiosk for a little public use space for friends and family.
Great video! I feel like so many of these clone boards are just rising the Raspberry pi hype wave to make some quick cash and don't give a damn about the end product nor the end consumer. Which is really sad as there's definitely a market for a viable competitor.
It's worse when each one uses almost all the same peripherals but they don't really share the work on the software side :( Armbian does some of that, but it would be cool if all the RK3566 boards would team up, or lump resources.
That reTerminal device feels like the perfect detached-garage computer chassis for someone who can't do, say, 3D printing or other CNC work in the house.
I definitely echo your sentiment ab bananaPi! I've tried to run a bunch of their SBC products but their documentation is hit or miss, unfortunately mostly miss. When it runs it runs good, very good, but damn it's fickle
I got hooked on Orange Pi products when the RPi shortages began. Compared to RPi, they come in at a very respectable "second-best" in software and compatibility and seem way ahead of the rest of the "clones" in nearly every regard. The OPi 5 Plus is about to become my new 2.5Gbit router...it's an impressive piece of kit at an impressive price point!
You should make a video about that or an old school blog at least. That's how I got in to openwrt on pi 4. Some guy just wrote up what he did, so cool.
@@plica06 It wouldn't be much different from other OpenWRT vids/wikis. OPi has a ready made OWRT image that can run from the eMMC, microSD, or NVMe. I do love the modular eMMC port on the OPi 5+
A small note - kernel 4.19 is an LTS release and is still receiving security patches upstream. Whether those patches are being used is another question xP It's wild to me just how many of these *don't boot* out of the box.. Vendors expecting the community to pick up their slack has been a thing for a while but the boards not even getting to a shell on release seems like a new level.
what really kills it for me is the need to run any of these boards with a custom linux. I can't trust random images found on the web, they need to come from trusted first-party sources like Ubuntu. To top that, running ancient kernels is a huge red flag
This... I have a bunch of 3rdparty CM4 carrier/io boards but no way in Hell am I running some 3rd party kernel. The orange Pi CM4 I/o board (with onboard nvme slot) works great as do the multiple different Waveshare base boards I have and the PiTrays... But im running them with 1st party images and Rpi CM4s.
The reTerminal looks fantastic but for something as low processing as a Home Assistant dashboard panel is overkill. When you can use an old tablet and Fully Kiosk application add a 3D printed frame to mount it on the wall and you are done. Depending on the tablet you can spend as little as $150 compare with $400 of the reTerminal 10 inch.
True-however the prospect of a more rugged enclosure (that should last years and years), no battery to manage, and built-in PoE makes a reTerminal DM or something like it make more sense. It doesn't need quite the same feature set (it could just be touchscreen + Pi + PoE HAT), but it's not a bad option. There are a couple other ones that are cheaper too. (Search for AIO CM4 PC I think)
@@JeffGeerling Didn’t thing about the power management aspect. Having the data over ethernet is way more reliable than wifi. For my panels I didn’t have the option of running cables to them. I use an automation to control a wall plug to maintain the charge between 20% and 80% hopefully that will keep the battery happy. Cant wait to see the New studio and all the fun stuff you will accomplish.
Would definitely appreciate an overview of the Pi KVM projects out there. I started building my own based on PiKVM about a year ago but didn't get too far, can't recall what the blocker was exactly but something to do with the pi model 3.
Its microUSB is power only, no OTG support. (PiKVM project supports this by adding a 32u4-based board and communicating via GPIO, but it does add complexity vs a Pi-only solution)
My experience with Pi-like products (Rock64) and actual Pi products (ZeroW) was night and day. The ZeroW just WORKED from the start and has been running for 6 months straight on solar power without issue. I sold the Rock64 after only one of the supposed supported OS booted, and then kept corrupting the image. Don't be seduced by specs. Software support is where it's at.
The bigtreetech cm1 is designed to run a specific application (klipper). This application absolutely dosnt need the power a cm4 offers. So it being a little less powerful is fine.
the edgebox seems like a good fit for irrigation controllers or controlling wind generators (2 things I need to do that require some computing outside the house/garage/barn) I might grab 2 or 3 for me.
After getting a CM4 for my Manta M4P, Ive been interested in these little boards, especially in my use case such as my other 3d printers , I can get an adapter to maken it into a pi 4 ,and if not needed I can take it, off and do other things with it. Also , so many flavors of boards!
Of all the "non-Raspberry" boards I have, the one that came closest in terms of stability without problems was the Orange Pi. It made me replace a Raspberry Pi easy.
The reason for the Bigtreetech's CB1 for having a weaker CPU and lower specs is the low system requirements for running Klipper, the 3D printer firmware that the board is primarily focused to.
I bought the Radxa Taco a while back when Jeff used it in one of his videos. I've been waiting for a Raspbarry Pi CM4 to be available for a long time but they are still out of stock. Instead I purchased an Orange Pi CM4, yes it uses the RK3566, but I got it working with the Radxa Taco using one of the Orange Pi's CM4 images. It runs hot, so you need a heat sink. Still need to make a case for it.
I really haven't don't really deep into the cm4. But i'm a huge fan of like the zero boards. The raspberry pi zero 2 w Along with orange pi zero 2 w. Usually works about a glitch
100% agree with sticking to the original. With the experience I've had so far with a Radxa 4c+ and an Orange Pi 5+ (16 gig), i have promised myself not to throw my money at any Pi clone.
Haha, glad I was complete then! I love that for what it is. It's not made to be a performance monster or anything... it just makes 3D printers go brrrr!
@@JeffGeerling It really does. during the shortage of pis, the 3d printer modding community had some serious trouble finding a reliable sbc that any beginner could use. Most chose the orange pi though.
I saw a RPI5 on eBay for £2000 or best offer, and the average sell price for the 8gb model is £109, and £90 for the 4gb version. Having greedy scalpers is now the new normal, which is a shame. They buy up all stock reducing supply, which increases demand, sit in the middle while rubbing their grubby little hands.
The best solution is for nobody to ever buy from a scalper, let them sit on their wasted stock like we did to those toilet paper hoarders during the pandemic. Unlike the 2021-2022 period, Raspberry Pi is producing Pi 5 in quantity now (not quite as many as Pi 4 products yet, but still...), so patience is the better option. Pi 5 restocks are coming a few times a week at least here in the US!
I find myself mostly agreeing with Jeff. The SBC 'pi clones', even the better ones, have lousy driver support. Old kernels and non-working 'features' abound. They mimic the small Pi form factor for no good reason. I suspect that the only reason for RPi sticking with it doggedly is the industrial customer base; a consumer type user like me really doesn't care about the size but mostly about compatible components. I really, really hope that the 'RPi 6' goes with a larger size that supports M.2 2280 devices and *full* PCIe v3 x4 support. Of course it will be more expensive but reliable software support is KEY!! Meanwhile I'm sticking with the rash of new Intel x86_64 N100 based mini pcs; if they pull HOA and add dual channel memory, PCIe and better iGPU that will be a winner.
Nano PC-T6 (Yes not nano PI, and I tell you this thing is AWESOME) I am using it as a router right now which is somewhat overkill. That said, the HDMI input on it makes it quite an interesting proposition, I would venture the possibility you may want one as a recording device ;)
I’ve been wanting to get a panel I could recess into a wall for Home Automation. I’m glad you showed the HMI, but does anyone know where I could get something that would be “all screen” so I can minimize bezels? Even if I had to mount something behind a mirror.
![ลองสุ่มไอโฟน 990 โกงมั้ย? [ โกงมั้ยครับ ep.101 ] | DOM](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/bfsWe0j492k/mqdefault.jpg)
"We never got that model working because we've already switched to a newer design" is not an acceptable answer
That's a recurring refrain in this space, the Maker class embedded board one.
And not exactly the best incentive to buy said next design as it shows they don't support what they have released.
Work-alike without drama and full documentation are preconditions to Pi clones becoming a thing. Yeah, it's hard, so was making the first full PC clone, if you know your Wintel history.
Even for software it's an unacceptable answer.
Welcome to Chinese companies and their electronics.
I have been saying this under so many pi killer videos. The value of the pi is not in the hardware it's in the ecosystem. Supurb documentation, software support and community. Turning out a board with the same plugs is easy. Actually supporting your users very much something else and only the pi really has that. And it's why even businesses turn to it.
Well, the problem with the Raspberry Pi is that it's usually out of stock, or much more expensive that it's supposed to be.
@@Knowbody42 so, they had stock problems? Those are slowly being fixed. Doesn't change the fact that most competitors are crap everywhere it counts. What use are they when you cannot even boot them? Or bugs and lack of documentation prevent you from delivering your application.
@@bzuidgeest Still have stock problems.
If you can't actually buy the things, they effectively don't exist.
@@Knowbody42 I can buy them, maybe you didn't check recently or are in some backward place. Stock is getting better and better.
@@bzuidgeest Instead of blaming me or insulting me for the fact that it's never been in stock any time I've checked, maybe you could just admit that it's a problem.
And this is why upstream kernel support is a good thing. Otherwise you are stuck with a pile of hacks running on the vendor SDK (that is itself a pile of hacks on top of an old Linux kernel).
Or as the pros call it: "the vanilla embedded linux experience"
If they are Chinese designs then it is now Tofu-dregs.
That's why I'm rooting for libre computer. That seems to be one of their core goals of their products, and potato-themed names are funny
You should check us out then.
@@LibreComputer so compute-module themed SBC when? ;)
@@d3stinYwOw The design will be completed next month and validated in January. We hope to release it in March.
I really do appreciate Jeff using his platform to call out companies that aren't attributing the upstream projects. Very good!
But yet he took a difference stance when Red Hat made moves because Rocky, Alma, CloudLinux, and Oracle were not doing the same. Also they were not just using parts of RHEL they were directly ripping off RHEL and reselling it. All of the code is still available in the upstream repositories because that is how Red Hat works.
@@cptwinder it's available but it's behind a login page. Also using those sources to make a CentOS like distro would delete access from those sources
@@nullify. Incorrect. All of the source code used to build RHEL is committed upstream first. Do you want the source Red Hat uses for say systemd? Look to the systemd project. Want to see the source Red Hat uses for Gnome? Look to the Gnome project.
Those upstream sources then get bundled into the Fedora distribution which is Red Hat sponsored. At specific intervals the Fedora project is cloned to create a CentOS Stream. RHEL is build from the CentOS Stream sources.
So what are the differences between CentOS Stream and RHEL? A couple of things, the exact commit to CentOS Stream used in RHEL is not disclosed, and there are times, due to InfoSec concerns, that a security related patch will be applied to RHEL before being submitted upstream and/or to CentOS Stream.
There is nothing stopping anyone from taking the same source of code used to build RHEL, referring to CentOS Stream, and building a competing product. What Red Hat has stopped is someone taking their product, rebranding it and competing directly with them.
Let me attempt to put it a different way. Say you also ran a tech related TH-cam/Instagram/TikTok/Vimeo channel. There is no reason you couldn't take the content from each of Jeff's videos and create your own covering the same topics. Happens all the time. What would be unacceptable is for you to take Jeff's videos and repost them on a different platform, such as Instagram or TikTok, and claim to be 100% Jeff Geerling.
*Full Disclosure* I am a TAM at Red Hat and the opinions expressed are my own.
The BigTreeTech CM clone (and their raspberry clones) are mostly for running Klipper 3D printer control software. It does not need to be terribly powerful to be good enough for all Klipper features
Yep, thus I love it for what it is. It's not supposed to be a 'Pi Killer', just 'work for 3D printing', and for that, it does :)
I recently bought their Pi 4 clone for this. I wouldn't buy any other clones due to all the compatibility issues and whatnot, but the BTT clone for its intended purpose shouldn't be an issue.
The one question I have for that CM clone being one of the only ones not targeting high performance is how power efficient is it - don't need screaming fast all the time you might want to use a SOM like the CM4 but if the slower one isn't efficient enough you are far better off just having the CM4 and that ridiculous excess of power for this job.
The one question I have for that CM clone being one of the only ones not targeting high performance is how power efficient is it - don't need screaming fast all the time you might want to use a SOM like the CM4 but if the slower one isn't efficient enough you are far better off just having the CM4 and that ridiculous excess of power for this job.
@@Lord_zeel afaik it's fine as "drop in replacement" even for general purpose as long as you are ok with the lower CPU performance, 100mbit ethernet and the Mali GPU. It's officially supported by Armbian (it is similar to RaspberryOS but it supports other SBCs) with upstream kernel.
TLDR: If you have the time & knowledge to play around with a board, clone boards potentially better than a raspberry pi.
If you're lacking one of those two, however, you're gonna have a bad time
I think there's a reason why Chromecast switched from stick to a dongle form factor 😅 seems like an accident waiting to happen with that big board.
Nice to see that the btt/biqu one worked without issues! Currently waiting to install one to my printer. Though I definitely won't hesitate to replace it with an official cm4, if I run in to issues. Can't beat the support raspberry pi has!
last RISC-V CM4 clone was an option for me, but for now.. thanks Jeff, now i can choose from more options!
As always, great video! Thanks for mentioning Pi-Cast KVM. Pi-Cast KVM benefits from the open-source community, so we would like to contribute to the community by open-source the project schematic. Before this, there were no open-source documents about hardware on the market. Anyone wanting to develop their ip-kvm-related hardware can learn from it.
Man i miss this kind of content: entertaining, info rich, and straight to the point
We have a compute module with twice the Pi 4 performance and upstream 6.6 kernel coming out in a month.
Oooooh! Excited to see it!
Waiting for that, since, well, your HW seems one of the better for makers as alternative for RPi. BTW - when updates for u-boot on La-Frite? Last one is 2021 :)
@@d3stinYwOw You're looking in the wrong place. We update them at least twice a year.
@@LibreComputer thanks, will search better this time ;)
Does it run on a clockwork board?
Your own interview with RPi said supply was never an issue demand was which skyrocketed in 2021. Supply was higher in 2021 and 2022 than it ever had been previously but people were hoarding them for some reason.
It was a two-pronged problem-supply was constrained, and when that started happening, hoarding increased. And that constrained the available stock even further. It was a negative feedback loop, and until Raspberry Pi could clear their manufacturing bottlenecks (mostly the BCM2711 chip), it was an impossible situation.
I used to think the same "why not just get a cheaper *insert many SOMs* anyway" until I actually bought an orange pi and installed octoprint on it... So much more complicated than doing it on a Raspberry Pi
The other boards have some serious catching up to do, and let's be real, they probably won't ever catch up. It's already a niche market and there's no way most projects will put effort into supporting all these niche in a niche boards, when raspberry pi is so widely available, reasonable priced and does the job super well.
I got an ornagepi working as a pihole, gave up on the Armbian image and switched to Debian but yeah the proper RPi is so much easier.
There must be a special cage in hell for those who think Discord is a good tool for anything even a bit more serious than a chit-chat, let alone documentation, support and substitution of proper technical forums.
Seriously I hate this move to discord so much. It's ruining the ability to find info through search engines. And that's already getting more difficult as is, we don't need more things killing search.
I disagree, it's much better for dev discussions, helping new people, etc.
It's more like talking face-to-face than waiting for someone to reply to your email/GitHub issue
@@honzaled github and mailing lists are very formal dev channels, certainly not for discussions. As said above, Discord might seem handy for that, but only if you hate yourself and your userbase, while enjoying 'discussing' same things over and over again, loosing everyones time, since info is no more structured, nor indexed with search engines.
It is a spawn of satan, made for niche groups & communities like streamers' fan zone.
Has Jeff ever released a bad video. No. The answer is no.
Notice how he said, “Normal people like you and me…..” Yeah, Jeff I’m normal, you’re superhuman.
No he has not. He has however an awful, misanthropic blog.
Maybe we should challenge him to make a bad video;)
The house painting video, with a very disguising thumbnail colors. Yes.
I have no evidence to the contrary. But as a scientist I'd be happy to turn around 360 degrees if you prove me wrong. And this is not a typo.
Jeff, your videos are, for lack of any better words, fantastic! Your Tube site is now my first go-to site for anything related to the rise of the tiny computers (and other compute-related gear) for everything from industrial control to fun home projects. Your style is straightforward, your production quality is top-notch and seamless, and you are guru-level at making what can be rather complicated stuff consumable by a wide audience, and I love your sense of humor. Along with all of that, you have an ethic that is unquestionable. Your criticisms are extremely fair and are always explained in full, and I also love the fact that you will call out vendors that take questionable shortcuts on their way to making sales, such as skipping documentation, or by far the worst, using open-source code in their product without attribution in violation of licensing terms. As far as I'm concerned, your content is within 6-sigma of perfection. Keep up the amazing work!
RPImager 1.8.1! Kidding aside, an impressive amount of work went into creating this video. Thank you for presenting all these alternatives to the CM4. Not in the market for one myself but worthwhile to stay informed. Happy Thanksgiving and whatever you do, don't allow Red Shirt Jeff to deep-fry the turkey.
This CM4 clone army reminds me again of one of my favorite lines from a fantasy novel. Said in my own words: "Any idiot can't raise an army. The problems start at lunch."
Disappointing that the support for most of these clones are severely lacking...on the bright side, I'm really looking forward to your upcoming PiKVM video reviewing all of them!
As always, awesome stuff Jeff!
For anyone interested, Jeff's shirt can be purchased from N-O-D-E and it is called the 'Pinouts Pi Family Tee' 😊. I just grabbed one!
It's a neat tee shirt!
This is the video I didn't know I needed, thanks! 😁😁
Funny you put this out. Been looking at these. Specifically the luckfox. Pretty darn cheap option if we can get it working
Right now it's a little rough; you have to use the rkflash tool for it, but hopefully they'll put out a normal image soon.
Love the title of this video. It could not be more perfect; your Padawans will appreciate!
I appreciate your take on this...I've always been fascinated by these things and because it's so geeky and technical, it just satisfies my curiousity about them.
So much more than the title on this video. Thanks Jeff! :)
Honestly I’m over the raspberry pi. They were impossible to get and it turns out you can get perfectly fine micro PCs on the used market for just a few dollars more that have tons of support, tons of peripherals, and no waiting lists, or special websites to track down which vendor has one in stock for the next 20 minutes
I scrolled down specifically to type something similar to this. I don't care about raspberry pi anymore. Can't get CM4? No worries, keep them. I'll get something else.
Depends so much on what you want one for as to if that can ever be good enough as a substitute. As none of the micro PC are anywhere near as embedable into your projects, and ones that cheap compared to a Pi at MRRP are usually very slow, and quite possibly being ex-corporate machines have crap like a locked bios you won't know about from the listing, and might well be using the Dell style PC like but all the parts have custom connectors and footprints - those mini PC are a bit of a minefield. But if you only needed a 'small' working computer they might be fine.
Couldn't agree more. The cost went too high, couldn't get them at any price. Unless something changes bigtime I'll look elsewhere. Get them out on the shelves and drop the prices significantly.
I love the new movie in theatres
Jeff Geerling II - Attack of the Cloned Red Shirts
I’m thankful for you Jeff, your videos are great. Happy Thanksgiving! 🦃🍁
I'm really excited to see how a future CM5 works with the current ecosystem on expansion boards. The Pi5's differences with camera ports and PCIE might mean it too behaves a bit differently, though I expect the Pi Foundation to update things and ensure its compatible with as many things as they can.
Thanks for all you do Jeff
Man that Edgebox is looking mighty for metering/ meter cabinet/ PV applications. I was looking for a rpi "mini server enclosure" with m2 support half a year ago and ended up going for the Argon. The fact that the Edge is even bringing RS485/Modbus support is really handy - you don't need an external Modbus USB Stick or an external RS485-to-TCP module to hand over Modbus to the RPI running e.g. Home Assistant!
Back in the day, the test for compatibility was "Does it run Flight Simulator?". I remember attending a large, national PC show where trade potential purchases were walking around with their 5.25" floppy with Flight Simulator in order to do that test.
Jeff your channel has really taken off, good for you and happy thanksgiving everyone
Thank you, and happy Thanksgiving to you too!
Great title!
i like this channel because it is like github but in simplified video format. I wish you godspeed in your effort.
Cool video man :). Thanks for repping the shirt!
Just how many of them have upstream kernel support? And how many of them have open-source bootloaders, or closed-source but well-documented ?
Getting my Pair of RK1s on Saturday cant wait to toy with them in my Turing Pi 2 board! i'll be looking forward to your content on it as well @Jeff Geerling
I want:
- A standard interface so we can plug and swap these bad boys across a few generations.
- A framework mainboard that takes one of these.
Mmm framework Pi would be sweet.
@@JeffGeerling I dropped the idea to the Libre Computer guys (that make the potato), and they said "Maybe next year."
I'm excited. The battery life on that could get me through a whole day of basic notes and writing.
I finally got RPi CM4, I got Banana-PI CM4 and Orange-Pi CM4. I am glad to see this, thanks Jeff.
You have something for 'CM4' then :D
I use a regular Wio Terminal for a wall mounted panel outside my office and quite like it. Those re:Terminal's look super awesome and I'm looking forward to your projects with them!
Those HMI industrial looking pi touchscreen doodads look exactly like what I'm looking for to setup some kind of jukebox kiosk for a little public use space for friends and family.
Great video!
I feel like so many of these clone boards are just rising the Raspberry pi hype wave to make some quick cash and don't give a damn about the end product nor the end consumer. Which is really sad as there's definitely a market for a viable competitor.
It's worse when each one uses almost all the same peripherals but they don't really share the work on the software side :(
Armbian does some of that, but it would be cool if all the RK3566 boards would team up, or lump resources.
I'm looking forward to the CM5 and hopefully we can add any USB 3 cards without relying on the VLI chip. And not to mention better PCie support.
More about Pi-KVM variants and tests of them would be interesting
That reTerminal device feels like the perfect detached-garage computer chassis for someone who can't do, say, 3D printing or other CNC work in the house.
True; a nice remote control display terminal.
Thanks Jeff, great video.
I definitely echo your sentiment ab bananaPi! I've tried to run a bunch of their SBC products but their documentation is hit or miss, unfortunately mostly miss. When it runs it runs good, very good, but damn it's fickle
I got hooked on Orange Pi products when the RPi shortages began. Compared to RPi, they come in at a very respectable "second-best" in software and compatibility and seem way ahead of the rest of the "clones" in nearly every regard. The OPi 5 Plus is about to become my new 2.5Gbit router...it's an impressive piece of kit at an impressive price point!
You should make a video about that or an old school blog at least. That's how I got in to openwrt on pi 4. Some guy just wrote up what he did, so cool.
@@plica06 It wouldn't be much different from other OpenWRT vids/wikis. OPi has a ready made OWRT image that can run from the eMMC, microSD, or NVMe. I do love the modular eMMC port on the OPi 5+
4.19 is actually a still supported LTS kernel. Just barely still supported, but supported.
A small note - kernel 4.19 is an LTS release and is still receiving security patches upstream. Whether those patches are being used is another question xP
It's wild to me just how many of these *don't boot* out of the box.. Vendors expecting the community to pick up their slack has been a thing for a while but the boards not even getting to a shell on release seems like a new level.
Pi CM4 is still king. Just shows how advanced it is.
Another great video, Jeff!
what really kills it for me is the need to run any of these boards with a custom linux. I can't trust random images found on the web, they need to come from trusted first-party sources like Ubuntu. To top that, running ancient kernels is a huge red flag
This... I have a bunch of 3rdparty CM4 carrier/io boards but no way in Hell am I running some 3rd party kernel.
The orange Pi CM4 I/o board (with onboard nvme slot) works great as do the multiple different Waveshare base boards I have and the PiTrays... But im running them with 1st party images and Rpi CM4s.
"we are not supporting that model, cause we got your money already. We can sell you the new model for more of your money."
RETERMINAL for home automation, the unit looks impressive, especially with naughty things like can bus support.
hi, can you create a table of features and how easy it is to boot? or at least divide the list in working / not working, thanks!
So sketchy that they have individual skus. You just cannot get away from being 100% tracked these days!!
The reTerminal looks fantastic but for something as low processing as a Home Assistant dashboard panel is overkill. When you can use an old tablet and Fully Kiosk application add a 3D printed frame to mount it on the wall and you are done. Depending on the tablet you can spend as little as $150 compare with $400 of the reTerminal 10 inch.
True-however the prospect of a more rugged enclosure (that should last years and years), no battery to manage, and built-in PoE makes a reTerminal DM or something like it make more sense. It doesn't need quite the same feature set (it could just be touchscreen + Pi + PoE HAT), but it's not a bad option. There are a couple other ones that are cheaper too. (Search for AIO CM4 PC I think)
Yeah, I'd rather not have a cheap/old tablet plugged in 24/7 for years developing a spicy pillow inside.
@@JeffGeerling Didn’t thing about the power management aspect. Having the data over ethernet is way more reliable than wifi. For my panels I didn’t have the option of running cables to them. I use an automation to control a wall plug to maintain the charge between 20% and 80% hopefully that will keep the battery happy. Cant wait to see the New studio and all the fun stuff you will accomplish.
That CM4 HDMI stick, if it supports CEC... that'd be soooo sexy
Can't wait for new BliKVM v5 models + new GUI.
painful, your starwars puns are - wishing yoda best Xmas ever :P xx
Jeff, I keep watching, and still "Until next time..." ;)
Who knows, maybe someday I won't be!
I hope Johann's Carrier Board makes it to commercial sales. 😊
Love the title.
Execute order -RK35- 66 !
Gah! Missed opportunity! lol
Would definitely appreciate an overview of the Pi KVM projects out there.
I started building my own based on PiKVM about a year ago but didn't get too far, can't recall what the blocker was exactly but something to do with the pi model 3.
Its microUSB is power only, no OTG support.
(PiKVM project supports this by adding a 32u4-based board and communicating via GPIO, but it does add complexity vs a Pi-only solution)
0MG and ENTIRE bodge wire!
How can anyone be expected to do that !!!
Next thing you know they will expect people to use jumpers.
Can't wait for the CM5
My experience with Pi-like products (Rock64) and actual Pi products (ZeroW) was night and day. The ZeroW just WORKED from the start and has been running for 6 months straight on solar power without issue. I sold the Rock64 after only one of the supposed supported OS booted, and then kept corrupting the image. Don't be seduced by specs. Software support is where it's at.
The bigtreetech cm1 is designed to run a specific application (klipper). This application absolutely dosnt need the power a cm4 offers. So it being a little less powerful is fine.
The title is GOLD. Take my money as a sign of my respect 😂
Imagine not growing out of jumping up and down just seeing a pop-culture reference…
Well now I'm torn whether to acknowledge the American Psycho reference in your avatar...
@@SuperFranzs it’s called the age of wonder, and I plan on living in it until I die 😌
@@JeffGeerling ;)
@@HowdyFolksGaming That's a good response. Never let someone say you shouldn't enjoy yourself, they're just envious of your enjoyment.
11:12 Not inexpensive, but sure seems to be a great way to go! 🙌😎
the edgebox seems like a good fit for irrigation controllers or controlling wind generators (2 things I need to do that require some computing outside the house/garage/barn) I might grab 2 or 3 for me.
I was tempted to preorder a turing RK1 or two for my Turing Pi v2, but given the software situation of the v2 I thought I'd wait for your review.
I have preordered it, and can't wait to receive it :)
So far it's been good, even in early access. I'm excited to test out a cluster full of them!
After getting a CM4 for my Manta M4P, Ive been interested in these little boards, especially in my use case such as my other 3d printers , I can get an adapter to maken it into a pi 4 ,and if not needed I can take it, off and do other things with it. Also , so many flavors of boards!
I'm so excited to nerd out!!
I love the title so much ❤
Of all the "non-Raspberry" boards I have, the one that came closest in terms of stability without problems was the Orange Pi. It made me replace a Raspberry Pi easy.
Try a non-fruit board 😊
Yeah, that is the question: Will a CM5 be backward compatible with the CM4?
My guess... no... b/c RPI Foundation gonna be RPI foundation
IE: Micro HDMI ... still not a thing no matter how hard they try.
As a CM4 fanatic this was like a little pre-christmas video. Too bas there is no RK3588 in a CM4 form factor yet
I know... still waiting on one, would love to drop it into a couple things and see how well it performs!
I do love the idea of the flexibility..
Yeah that BigTreeTech one has been specced literally to run klipper on a 3d printer, and it's not a very hard workload
The reason for the Bigtreetech's CB1 for having a weaker CPU and lower specs is the low system requirements for running Klipper, the 3D printer firmware that the board is primarily focused to.
I bought the Radxa Taco a while back when Jeff used it in one of his videos. I've been waiting for a Raspbarry Pi CM4 to be available for a long time but they are still out of stock. Instead I purchased an Orange Pi CM4, yes it uses the RK3566, but I got it working with the Radxa Taco using one of the Orange Pi's CM4 images. It runs hot, so you need a heat sink. Still need to make a case for it.
Maybe I'm one of the niche target for CB1. I run small embedded applications, no crazy computing power, just needed the any SOM with CM4 form factor.
It's perfect for that! (As long as whatever niche interfaces you might need are supported).
Always love the Orange PI options as a good alternative. Faster then RPI and with lots more RAM, I think you can get them with upto 32GB or 64GB now.
Cool video as usual sir
Linux 4.19 is still supported, it's a long term release, it's supported until Dec 2024.
So it should be fine.
Love your videos.
Good thing that card plugs into the TV without a cable, and then all you need is that other cable.
This title is where its at!
I really haven't don't really deep into the cm4. But i'm a huge fan of like the zero boards. The raspberry pi zero 2 w Along with orange pi zero 2 w. Usually works about a glitch
100% agree with sticking to the original.
With the experience I've had so far with a Radxa 4c+ and an Orange Pi 5+ (16 gig), i have promised myself not to throw my money at any Pi clone.
just 30seconds before jeff mentioned the CB1 I was thinking: "Gosh I wish the CB1 was in this list, it was great for the 3d printing community"
Haha, glad I was complete then! I love that for what it is. It's not made to be a performance monster or anything... it just makes 3D printers go brrrr!
@@JeffGeerling It really does. during the shortage of pis, the 3d printer modding community had some serious trouble finding a reliable sbc that any beginner could use. Most chose the orange pi though.
finally, a new jeff video
The fact that scalping a board was a thing says alot about society still in desperate greedy tactics.
I saw a RPI5 on eBay for £2000 or best offer, and the average sell price for the 8gb model is £109, and £90 for the 4gb version. Having greedy scalpers is now the new normal, which is a shame. They buy up all stock reducing supply, which increases demand, sit in the middle while rubbing their grubby little hands.
The best solution is for nobody to ever buy from a scalper, let them sit on their wasted stock like we did to those toilet paper hoarders during the pandemic.
Unlike the 2021-2022 period, Raspberry Pi is producing Pi 5 in quantity now (not quite as many as Pi 4 products yet, but still...), so patience is the better option. Pi 5 restocks are coming a few times a week at least here in the US!
@@JeffGeerling And that we will do Jeff. We are patient for some micro computer upgrades.
I find myself mostly agreeing with Jeff. The SBC 'pi clones', even the better ones, have lousy driver support. Old kernels and non-working 'features' abound. They mimic the small Pi form factor for no good reason. I suspect that the only reason for RPi sticking with it doggedly is the industrial customer base; a consumer type user like me really doesn't care about the size but mostly about compatible components.
I really, really hope that the 'RPi 6' goes with a larger size that supports M.2 2280 devices and *full* PCIe v3 x4 support. Of course it will be more expensive but reliable software support is KEY!! Meanwhile I'm sticking with the rash of new Intel x86_64 N100 based mini pcs; if they pull HOA and add dual channel memory, PCIe and better iGPU that will be a winner.
Nano PC-T6 (Yes not nano PI, and I tell you this thing is AWESOME) I am using it as a router right now which is somewhat overkill. That said, the HDMI input on it makes it quite an interesting proposition, I would venture the possibility you may want one as a recording device ;)
It’s brilliant to see that the clone wars are underway. Raspberry Pi Foundation deserve to have somebody eat their lunch, after years of shortages.
I’ve been wanting to get a panel I could recess into a wall for Home Automation. I’m glad you showed the HMI, but does anyone know where I could get something that would be “all screen” so I can minimize bezels? Even if I had to mount something behind a mirror.
Good question! Usually for that you'd need to go custom, buying your own LCD and finding a way to mount it.
@@JeffGeerling I guess I’ve got some researching to do. Lol