Why Are So Many SJW Characters Mary Sues?
ฝัง
- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 31 ส.ค. 2018
- Why do so many modern characters feel like Mary Sues? And for that matter, is a Mary Sue really what everyone thinks it is?
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Sources:
Rey has no weaknesses: www.forbes.com/sites/erikkain...
Rey has no weaknesses 2: • Star Wars: Daisy Ridle...
Age of Ultron Outrage: www.vox.com/2015/5/11/8582081...
Age of Ultron Outrage 2: screenrant.com/joss-whedon-qu...
A Trekki’e Tale: tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.ph...
Copycat Sue: tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.ph...
Wesley Crusher Outsmarting An Engineering Team: The Naked Now
Solo Failing at the Box Office: screenrant.com/solo-star-wars... - บันเทิง
"Reading a story with a Mary Sue is like skipping straight to the end of the book."
DAMN. STRAIGHT.
He said Jehova!
More like having the end spoonfed to you
@@Astroryx What exactly is a "Mary Sue"?
StRaIgHt?!1! sTrAiGhT?!!1! GaY pRiDe AaAaAaAaAaAa
@@davidlafleche1142 a perfect Protagonist without flaws.
For example, Rey from SW:
-She defeated Kylo Ren without any lightsabre training(and her experiencece with the staff doesn't count, Lightsabres and Staffs are two different things.
-Has Force power like Yoda, is just extremly strong.
...
BASICALLY:
A main character experiences the plot
The plot experiences a Mary sue
ye
hmmm frisk is a Mary-sue.
your choices mean nothing. the player does near nothing (except get through the various enounters)
dont get me wrong its some pretty good writing but really Frisk is a mary-sue.
Excellent point!
Adam Eason Or Gary Stu depending on how you prefer it.
Wow. I like that
Let's talk about Rey's more human counterpart: Wall-E.
He's referring to the other vid about Rey
But Wall-E is a ro... oooh
@@nathanlawson5351 yep there you go
dont you ever dirty my boy wall-e ever again
Wall-E has loads amount of character and personality than Rey, and he's a robot!😶
The term social justice taints the meaning of actual justice.
Like the term feminism taints gender equality.
Does it?
Social justice is like a guinea pig. Neither a pig nor from Guinea.
@Zero the Faceless
But social justice is less cute than a guinea pig!
Woah, that's so like, insightful bro. I bet you said so many smart things like that during gamergate
I'm pretty forgiving of fanfic Mary Sues, they're usually amateurs writing for fun. But when it's someone professional, they're going to be criticized.
preach, man. fanfiction gives young, aspiring writers a creative playground. it's like writing on training wheels. it's fucking great.
@TookALevelInBadass depends what website you're on lol
@TookALevelInBadass ao3 or bust
@TookALevelInBadass "hard to find specific sort of stuff"
huh, I think ao3's search function is pretty good (that, and I've read some stuff on there that's unironically better than most ya shit). speaking of which, does ffn have any search features? like, at all?
True story
Rey: Never used laser cannons before
also Rey: shoots down 3 tie-fighters with one shot
She also kicks three Praetorian Guards by kicking just one of them, and there's no domino effect going on.
When did that happen?
@@jeffwallace673 in the Last Jedi at the end
@@BreezyPotato27 to be fair I don't think I've ever seen anyone do poorly in that turret
Also, those Tie fighters were all lined up in a row. I don't think that's anything that Rey did
Let's look at Captain Marvel:
-Infinite power: Yes
-Flawless: Yes
-Everone who disagrees with her is wrong: Yes
-Has any *real* trouble now or before: No
The movie is just literally a SJ MS that flies at least 500× speed if light
try read the comic of her
it gets worse
Infinite power : no, she's beaten by one infinity stone
Flawless : no, she's arrogant and prone to anger
Everyone who disagree with her is wrong : no they were right she couldn't have defeated Thanos by herself
Has any real trouble now or before : wasn't there to save the univers, fail to beat thanos, had to deal with entering the army in the 90s as a woman
I dislike the character just as much as most viewers, but that isn't a reason to make up a fake point
it depends on what captain marvel and comics or movies. carol Danvers went through a lot of trouble in the comics. she was power absorbed by rogue ending up in a coma for years. she spent anther few years a brain washed solder for the government s before getting her memories back. you have to consider she has been in comics for a long time.
@@danielniemeyer1987 I think you're talking about original Miss Marvel, not Captain Marvel
@@naproupi beaten by one infinity stone.... and without that stone, then what? Can you relate with an OP sue that needed an *infinity stone* and *Thanos* to be defeated?
arrogant and prone to anger.... SJWs probably don't see that as a flaw, like, at all.
wasn't there to save the universe.... which highlights how everything supposedly depends on her.
had to deal with entering the army as a woman.... this plays into SJW narrative. Surely being in the army is more than just gender.
Be careful when claiming fakeness.
Fun fact: Obi-Wan is actually on the weak side of the force users and is by far the Jedi master with the least connection to the force. The only reason he was in the council was because he spent hundreds of hours studying and practicing every day ever since becoming a padawan. Even with all these limitations he still managed to defeat Anakin, the chosen one.
No, it was the high ground. (This is a joke by the way)
Yes! That is one of the overarching messages of Star Wars. It does not matter who you are. Your actions do. You can be the chosen one. But it is just a potential. It is up to you to utilize that potential. Which culminates in the Revenge of the Sith.
A very real point about obi wan is that that he always beat Sith with his wit, he would goad them throughout the fight. Outside of maul the first time, which is where he learned to goad people from with how Quigon died.
He really did have the highest ground
And Mace Windu, the second best fighter just under Yoda, called Obi Wan THE Master of Soresu. It was a part of why Obi was the one sent to kill Greivous.
"Rey is the first powerful force sensitive female jedi in a main role"
Ashoka tano: am I a joke to you?
Jedi Exile: No but Ray is a joke to me.
Ashoka is one of my favorite Star Wars characters
Mara Jade Skywalker: What the hell did you people do to my husband!
Bastila Shan: "Care to correct yourself?"
Mara Jade: "Do I have to choke a Sleemo?"
Jaina Solo: "Now hold on, Aunt Mara. Before we throw around phrases like 'OP' or 'Mary Sue': let my highly-inferior replacement explain herself."
@@jayceallen6530 same
It honestly made me angry to see how Marvel handled Black Widow.
- She's been introduced pretty early in the MCU.
- She's 100% human with no incredible power (just like Hawkeye).
- Her combat abilities are the result of intense training.
- She's a loyal ally and she became a good friend for most of the Avengers team.
- She has troubles dealing with her past, and her relationship with Bruce gives her a way to heal from that. He accepts her for what she is, just like she accept him the same way.
But *no* , let's make the first Marvel movie with a female main-character about Captain Marvel. *BRUH*
EDIT : *Avengers Endgame Spoilers ahead* So this comment is 9 month old and I still see a lot of replies coming. *YES* , we needed this movie to introduce Captain Marvel, *YES* , we do have male characters that are complete Gary Stu, and *NO* , even if you think that this movie was bad (like me), it doesn't give you the right to harass the people that worked on it.
What I was trying to say is that people at Marvel maybe did great on a marketing aspect to sell Captain Marvel as the first female MC Marvel movie, but in term of story-telling, it's clearly a miss. They had an already very fleshed out and humanized character that *FUCKING SACRIFICED HERSELF TO SAVE THE WHOLE MOTHERFUCKING UNIVERSE* , and it would've been really cool to see her personal story *before* killing her. That'd have ended her character arc on an even much deeper and dramatic note. Plus, selling it as the first Marvel movie with a female main character would've, in my opinion, shown respect to Black Widow and Scarlett Johansson for all those years of investment into the MCU.
That is only my opinion. Have a good day.
But the second movie with female lead is about Black Widow... I think people would love to see her again after Endgame. If they put the CM after endgame but she still appeared in endgame, it would be weird. I think they put CM in front because marvel have to introduce her before endgame, that's all.
@@jessiemai6432 Yes, of course they had to put Captain Marvel before Endgame, that's not the problem :o
The problem comes from the fact that they had a perfect opportunity to make Black Widow more relevant before Endgame (idk if you saw it, so i'm not gonna spoil anything), and they didn't do it. But yes, of course it would've been weird to see Captain Marvel without introducing her at all.
This is kinda a dumb argument. If logical backstory where supposed to be the criteria in regards to what doesnt constitute a mary sue, then black widow and hawkeye would die a horrific death, because their literally fighting supermans as humans. At least iron man has a suit. Because no matter how trained you are as a human, your not fighting nebulon unassisted...
Last i checked, wasn't captain marvel a dude?
@@dr.scarlet7586 Yeah in the comics (or something). What I don't get is why Captain Marvel happens to be the strongest MCU character. The Social Justice shouldn't just trivialize that she can survive being punched with the Power Stone. Peter Quill (half god at the time!) could only manage *holding* with the Guardians helping him. Just in case you didn't get the scope of it's the power of an Infinity Stone, Ronan touching the Power Stone on a planet immediately destroys it.
Problem with "strong female characters" is that they're always either cookie cutter images of the same leather-clad badass, or they're underdeveloped because the story only has a female lead to be "progressive" even though there's nothing "progressive" about it.
What annoys me about the typical ‘strong female character’ is that it’s usually a woman that acts masculine. Masculine does not mean strong, and it excludes every other kind of personality
the aspect of a male character being "strong" makes him a hero but when it comes to a female character she's automatically a mary sue. no one questions why the male character is strong cus that's what were suppose to assume to believe, but when a female character is supposedly strong everyone wants to analyze her and question the character, kinda sad.
Make them strong female CHARACTERS,not strong FEMALE characters.
You don't need to make a "strong female character", that's the pitfall that these people fall into. Write a strong character, then just have it be female. Because that's not a personality trait, it has nothing to do with their character. That doesn't mean write a man, and just change pronouns, it means write a respectable character and then just have it be a woman.
Dont Misunderstand exactly! Gender is one of the least important parts of a character, so it should be treated as such. Make it one of the last things assigned to the character- an afterthought, almost.
There is a reason that zuko is probably the most beloved character in avatar🤷♂️
Actually I don’t Like his charachter but that’s just because I don’t Like the type of personality he has. Although I still have some respect for him.
Not throwing shade at Zuko but he's not the most loved imo. I'd say that goes to Iroh.
Zuko, Iroh, and Azula where all badass. Iroh is my fav tho
Because he has g r o w h t
@NS I I don't think Azula was killed. I haven't watched the show in a few years (but I'm rewatching it now that it's back on Netflix), so correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't Azula shoved into a mental asylum?
I’d rather read a story about overcoming your flaws and getting stronger and becoming a better person, than one about a Mary Sue not experiencing growth
The part where they effortlessly solve all the problems unless the author wants to have a self-indulgent "woe is me" scene that's Shatner's crew turning on him for the sake of forced drama in Star Trek 5 levels of trash.
Littlepip has one of the most accurate depictions of the pains of Drug Addiction and the struggles to overcome it in the horrors of the Equestrian Wasteland, Blackjack ends up having a brush with _suicide_ by Chapter 20 over failing to keep ponies that she meets alive that end up suffering and dying all around her, and Nyx goes through the wringer of who she is supposed to be from the perspective of being the storys' Protagonist *AND* Antagonist as the reincarnated Nightmare Moon.
I find it hilarious and ironic when My Little Pony Fanfiction from 2011 can create better and more-compelling female characters than Hollywierd are creating nowadays.
Congratulations. You have at least a normal I.Q.
www.wattpad.com/story/179401625-rize-reaper
www.wattpad.com/story/152734664-the-rise-of-the-king
www.wattpad.com/story/182441332-midnight-sky
Just three examples which are written on a site terminally known as “fanfiction”, which basically take all things SJW and brazenly say “fuck u, i’m going to improve the story no matter what ur agenda says”.
Maiq, this is the time you haven't lied.
Maiq didn't lie? By Sithis, what has this world become? We need Alduin to eat this Kalpa and restart the time anew.
You know what the most backwards thing the SJWs have in their tiny little minds is? That girls can only have female characters for role models. Isn't that, in and of itself, sexist? It's limiting girls to female characters. When I was a little girl, Luke Skywalker was my role-model. Why? He didn't give up on Vader, even after Obi-wan and even Yoda had. He didn't kill him when he had the chance because it wouldn't have been right to kill a defenseless enemy. He was resolute in what he believed in, not turning--even while being tortured by Emperor Palpatine. Forgiveness, patience, mercy, kindness, resolve. These were his strengths and what I always aspired towards. I don't see why girls can't look up to men or women. The character is important, not the gender or race.
Exactly. Being a certain race or gender doesn't make one admirable. Having admirable qualities is what makes one worthy of admiration.
That's precisely why the "Girl Power" angle of the Ghostbusters reboot failed to pull in female audiences; a lot of women, especially Ghostbusters fans, came out saying, "Why does Sony think I *need* female role models to look up to? Who are they to tell me what role models I should and shouldn't have? What's wrong with a girl looking up to a man as a role model, especially when the woman version is so much more terrible at everything the man did?"
Same for me. ATLA was and is one of my favorite series. During the airing of the show I was going through some tough problems and I looked to it for escape, but in the end I received lessons from the great teamaker Iroh. I hated to admit it back then, but I was so much like Zuko, but seeing his character redeemed and hearing the wise words of Iroh I felt a 'villain' like me could change to. So, you're right. Limiting a girls role models based on gender is in itself sexiest, because if a boy said they only relate to their gender SJWs would be all over the poor homie.
Not to NPC/SJWs... All they care about is "representation." They don't care about logic, quality, history, or anyone/thing that disagrees with their opinion.
@@@Sol36900 At some point in our lives, we'll all need a bit of Uncle Iroh's advice.
Do people that complained about Black Widow being vulnerable because of her infertility have any consideration to women that lost their wombs due to disease? Serious, even though it may not sounds like it, the effect is very similar, a feeling of emptiness, that something is missing...
True facts
@Greg Elchert I mean it would just be wrong to fling around a lady who is pregnant
I recognize that picture
I think they complained more about the fact she called herself "a monster" and they assumed the movie was telling the audience that sterile people are freaks
@@Mardanzo I don't think that but okay.
Feminists: I'll use the sexism to destroy the sexism
Feminazis is the term for people like this. Most feminists are actually okay people
@@couchpotato4928 If they were okay people, why are they trying to destroy culture, civilization and humanity as we know it? They don't want equality, they want power and the ability to annihilate those deemed undesirable or inferior, nothing else.
@@zaho87 what they're trying to say is that the most loud and stupid people of that community give the community a bad reputation. It's like the cringy fanbase of a tv show, anime or a videogame
@@ogi1cool625 ty!
@@ogi1cool625 To be fair though, those supposed "rational" feminists have done and continue to do precious dick-diddly fuck to rein in the more insane and dogmatic among their members.
Sarah Connor
Leia Organa
Black Widow
Wanda Maximoff
Wonder Woman
Alita Battle Angel
Samus Aran
Ellen Ripley
Lara Croft
Kyoko Sakura
Katara
Xena
What do all these women have that makes them such good characters? It's called character development, something characters such as Rey and Captain Marvel lack.
Don't forget Ellen Ripley.
@@dimspe1 Oh yes
Samus got a lot of hate for having character development though
Your point is absolutely right, but some of these characters have no development
JUDY HOPPS. A single woman breaking into a male-dominated field and showing them all she can do anything the bigger guys can do. Ought to be a feminist champion, right? Nope! Because the story realistically points out that she is not immune to prejudice and fault. And worse than that, she commits the unforgivable sin of _apologizing._
Perfect characters are boring. I don’t hate them and I don’t love them. They’re just forgettable. And that’s even worse.
It is what leads to the Eight Deadly Words of storytelling (which I used in SW Episode 7/8): I don't care what happens to these people.
Yeah, cause if a protagonist is boring, (most) people stop reading
have you ever seen the anime where a guy gets resurrected into another world with his smartphone it is so cancer GOD gives him all of the strongest abilitys off the start he had a crappy past life so he didn't sacrifice anything all the girls he meets instantly wanna have sex with him and he is boring with no depth he beats everything with ease and is flawless in every way it is honestly the worst anime i have ever seen. If you ever feel like dying on the inside check it out.
When he brought up Rey it took me like 10 seconds to remember who she was
So you got a point there
@books are definitely not overrated is not a hentai actually
As a minority, making minority characters with no flaws sets unrealistic standards for the people actually part of the minority, and doesn't allow for a character the audience can attach to. Please, write all people like people and not cardboard cut-outs!!
As a fellow minority - this is why I find woke, SJW characters a horrific insult.
Your a minority? If you mean a white woman then your not a minority.
@@mcpainkiller5231 I'm.... not a white woman????
@@spookiestking9353 Than what are you?
@@mcpainkiller5231 A human being.What does it matter to you. You want to tell me what I've been through doesn't "qualify"?
None of these pandering “strong female characters” actually empower me as a woman. My most empowering character is still Disney’s Mulan and she had to train A LOT! I also love Daenerys from GOT! (Though they ruined her in season 8). She had a ton of obstacles!!
Danny is a perfect example. She WAS given things...but always at a high price. 'You're going to marry a handsome, powerful king...and be his sex toy.' 'Now you're free of the king...but his people will no longer follow you.' 'You're the queen of dragons...but you and your pathetic band have no food, water or transportation and have to walk across the desert.' Talk about STRUGGLE!
Arya was the same. In the space of a few years, you're going to become the deadliest assassin ever. All it will cost is your childhood, most of your family, all of your friends and several thousand innocent people.
lets hope new mulan isn't garbage
@@akairibbon4658 The live-action version is the only one I've even considered watching because battle won't look real in a Disney flick. It's pointless to me to try to add drama and tension to a film brought to you by the same studio that brought us Mickey Mouse.
Well this aged like fine milk.
@@HungNguyen-fp5ir yup lmao
Saitama in One Punch Man is thankfully not an example
And he actually has relatable and human flaws and problems outside of being powerful, in fact, him being so powerful is his biggest issue. He wants to have awesome, fun, challenging fights, but he can't because he casually one shots everything. Being a hero, the thing he always wanted to be, is boring because he isn't challenged. His opness is actually a severe issue to him, rather than something that lets him get away with anything and he doesn't get away with things, he wins battles easily but he sucks at getting people to respect him, sucks at video games, sucks at making money and he's not very smart. Basically, the only good thing about him is his opness and that is actually the worst thing for him because he wants to be challenged in fights but can't. A Mary Sue would just always love winning and would never have an issue with their powers, Saitama does have issues with his powers.
MysteriousTomJenkins haha o pensi
sbit
@@MysteriousTomJenkins
Even more so, he's so OP that nobody believes in it.
Like that Fish King (or whatever his name was... Sea King?) "fight". All those heroes got almost anihilated trying to stop him, sacrificing themselves, and he just comes over and oneshots the guy.
For a second people almost realized how powerful he really is and would start respecting him, but that would be at expense of all other heroes because then, in comparison, they were inferior and incompetent. The Hero Organization would not need anybody else but Saitama.
What Saitama does? Pretends that he only got the kill because all other fighters weakened and wounded the Fish King, only strengthening the public opinion that's he just a hack who keeps kill-stealing all the real heroes. Which is one hell of a sacrifice, considering that he actually WANTS to be appreciated by the public for what he does.
Frankly, i have no idea how Mary Sue would handle that situation.
@@ArtekGeneral Would take the glory of the kill and the hero association would probably be remolded after them
"While the normal Mary Sue plays out power fantasies like being smart."
That was amazing. You just deliver an insult in such a smooth and casual way that it doesn't even feel like an insult until you actually think about what was said. Top quality.
I think he means smart in a way like "This Tokamak reactor doesn't work, so I get in and fix it wthin an hour because I know exactly what to do on first sight" smart.
Don't forget that he also said "Existing social skills" LOL
@@TotallyNotAFox ever heard of a "double meaning"? I can't read LD's mind, but it could easily be that...
If you’re trying to examine whether or not a character is too perfect, answer these questions:
1. Does the character have personality flaws?
2. Do they have in-universe weaknesses or limitations?
3. Do they struggle or get hurt occasionally?
4. Do they not win every fight?
If the answer to all four is yes, then you have a good character.
Question: What if the first three are true for the villain, but the last one isn't due to protagonists inflicting a tremendous loss which only sets back the villain (kids cartoon style).
Ok, my character is good then.
I think you can get away with only answering three of these questions with yes if it is handled properly. Ideally you should be able to answer all four yes, but characters can still be good if you answer one with no.
Well see that's the problem. Every author, even fanfic authors, think their characters have flaws and issues. Its just those flaws never quite seem to put them in a situation the character can't get out of on their own or with minimal assistance. Lets take Superman for example. Superman has three weaknesses: DC Kryptonite, magic, and red sun radiation. In Justice League Unlimited, superman was restrained by placing him in a room with a light that emitted that radiation. He had to be rescued by another teammate, and not in one of those Superman leads his own rescue. He was outright restrained the whole rescue. A Mary Sue isn't like that. While he might have such weaknesses, they will always quickly and efficiently find a way around any such weakness.
You do make a valid point, but I do see stories where the main character can overcome their issues on there own. I'm not saying your wrong, I'm saying it can be done if done correctly.
Why can’t we just write female characters without focusing so much on the fact that she’s female? Does she have to be woke or on the back of a male character 24/7? Can’t she just be a damn character?
It’s just, I feel like it’s fine women are becoming main characters more often than they were a few decades ago. But I feel like a lot of it is so fake; if there’s a female main character it’s the center of her character, and she’s “perfect”- but also very bland because of it.
It’s just a little sexist that writers stop trying with female character just because they feel the female part is all they need to do. They just add her as the MC and expect people to like her. Things that make a character great like fatal flaws, character development, and how they deal with their life-changing journey is thrown out the window.
Not to mention, this will also make it come off as if ALL female MCs are bad, even female MCs that are good. And it’s a shame, because there are well written ones- Katniss Everdeen for example.
Women irl can be very admirable and heroic as well as be flawed.
We aren’t going to remember these Mary-Sue female main characters, because they weren’t made as characters, and it’s very much a shame.
It feels like I've seen three types of women in the media. A few Mary Sues, Tough extra better than men chick that doesn't take any crap, and basic "I'm not like other girls, oops I'm so clumsy I dropped my book! Is my tea done yet?". There are other types. I want the characters to actually be enjoyable.
And this is why I gotta love Studio Ghibli female leads, they're fucking well rounded and they all display different kinds of strengths in a diversity of shapes, going from a girly girl who still manages to knock out her kidnapper with a bottle while still being scared shitless (Sheeta from castle in the sky), heck, a 90-ish year old lady with self worth issues against a powerful witch (Howl's moving castle), a clumsy formerly-kind-of-lazy girl who sucks at chores having to infiltrate a hotel for spirits to save her family (Chihiro), and an entire full spectrum right up to the super feral, raised-by-the-wolves girl that has to learn to cool down her extreme B/W view of the world and learn to trust others outside her clan to restore balance (Princess mononoke). And I love that even if they all have an enormous inner strength, at least ONCE you can see each and every single one of them at some point of the movie FREAKING OUT about their situation, having doubts, wondering why the hell is shit happening to them or how the hell they'll get themselves out of a dead end or panicking at the possibility of losing something or someone precious.
Well said, an example of a character who you described is Peggy Carter
@@ashleythetrashley1726 I mean, there’s also damsels in distress or women who are written to be centered around men too that are pretty common. I’m just saying that making them the opposite doesn’t work, not that there are only a couple of stock female characters that exist that all are way too pro-feminist. It’s just all of it is bc we treat women like a different species or fanservice and not as actual characters, which goes for both anti and pro feminism dkdjskdj
@@Grimexx955 Yeah
"The universe bends to obey the [Mary Sue]." This. This. A thousand times this. This is probably the purest definition of a Mary Sue, and the simplest distillation of why people hat Mary Sues....
Nah not a Mary sue. Black hole sue on the other hand!
They really hats the Mary Sues.
The current Doctor Who is a lot like that
@@ianmaluk1 maybe that is the solution to the problem. they need to wear hats. hats solve everything
@@Underworlder5 Maybe fedoras would help?
M'lady.
The female lead in MIB International is another perfect example of this.
She's a strong independent valkyrie that don't need no man....yawn, right?
@Osani Eslana The movie sucks too and it bombed.
But she did not know that steering wheels are on the other side of the car in UK:)
@nasolem That seems to be a thing in Hollywood right now but it doesn't seem to work very well for them. Oceans 8 flopped too and so did the all female Ghostbusters.
noless I watched it, and it was average. Not worth paying for it but you definitely know who the villain is... too predictable.
This is honestly a good assessment of the SJW infection and how it affects story writing.
Though I loathe to mention "Sailor Moon", it showed its audience a supremely flawed female character who still was able to narrowly pull victory from the jaws of defeat. She struggled HARD to overcome both her own flaws and the villain.
No kidding. The first season of Sailor Moon is a master class in 'this protagonist is not someone you want to have power' having to grow up and become both a leader and a better person in general. When the waste meets the rotary air impeller at the end, someone who annoyed the crap out of you at the start of the season is someone you actually believe will suck it up and pull through to win, and your glad they won, not just that someone beat the villain.
Most manga/anime female leads - at least those in serious stories, not campy comedy or pure fanservice - are flawed yet deeply compelling. Easy examples include Sakura from Cardcaptor Sakura and Tsubasa, Moka Akashiya from RosaVam, Karin from Chibi Vampire, Kaname Chidori from Full Metal Panic... and naturally, ANY of Rumiko Takahashi's female leads! (Incidentally, I'm hoping that "Yashahime" doesn't get too feminism-focused, given its trio of female leads...)
@@grantjohnson5785 Yeah, even though I watch next to no anime I’d say that their writers and stereotypes in general (usually) don’t have many mary sue esque charachters, because anime loves one thing: Action/drama
In order to have those (that make any sense at least) they have to have compelling characters, which may be why they’re relatively untouched by SJW ideology
«Mary sue» is an outdated term.
In 2020 we called these woman «Rey».
Ma-Ray-Sue
In other words, a Mary Sue is a character without the human traits and flaws that make a character interesting.
Just being immortal doesn't make them a Mary Sue. But it depends on context. If a character is immortal, then you have stated to your audience that immortality is possible in your universe, and you need to stay consistent with that rule. Of course, if their "immortality" is just invulnerability via astral projection then it's a little different to true immortality even. The important thing is that they can't succeed at everything automatically. Unless they're some kind of god-like supporting character who sits out the main conflict for the most part, the audience will want to see them struggle and even fail. Consider the following questions:
Can the broadcasted form be trapped somehow, or even severed from it's host?
If they can still feel pain, would sufficient pain be able to incapacitate them?
Can the fake form be mutilated or damaged in any way? If yes, would sufficient damage (disintegration, for example) render this form useless?
If their form is incapacitated, can they simply manifest a new one? If they can, are there any drawbacks to doing so?
Do they have any character flaws such as overconfidence, a short-temper, or attachment to a specific person or thing that can be manipulated?
These are all potential weaknesses that can prevent them from being a Mary Sue.
Also keep in mind it's not necessarily about how strong they are, it's about how challenged they are by the story, and whether they need to grow to overcome the obstacles they face. You could give them true invulnerability and make them completely impervious to all physical damage, but that doesn't mean they are a Mary Sue. What matters is whether having that power makes sense given the context of the story, and whether it's enough to solve all their problems and take the tension out of every fight. "Overpowered" is extremely relative. An OP character in one story wont necessarily be OP in another.
It also matters whether they are inherently right and good in what they do.
Good rule of thumb: Villains can be overpowered. It creates a greater challenge for the hero's to overcome. If the hero(s) get defeated easily in the beginning/middle, then it gives the audience a frame of reference to see how far they've come once they can go toe-to-toe with the villain later. Or maybe the hero(s) will never be able to fight the villain directly and need to find another way to stop them. Either way, you are *adding* tension.
Heroes should not be able to defeat villains easily. Not the main villain at least. If they're an anti-hero or at least have personality flaws that need to be overcome, then it's fine to make them superpowered if the story focuses more on internal growth. (although external and internal growth are usually tied, as in Luke's training with Yoda.)
I rambled a lot with this, but the point is that it doesn't really matter how strong they are as long as they still have to struggle in order to win and as long as they still have enough personality to be interesting and relatable to the audience.
I hope this was helpful, Drago n.
is worst than that, is a character, who will bring or get any solution easy, dont have to work or make any effort for it, dont have to stress it self because even the luck it gonna be with she, and I could say more, but my english is a litle limited, as you already saw
I tend to rant when making comments. Glad you found it helpful, Drago n.
For me a mary sue is just an all powerful character with little to no challenge facing them, but they can be good if written well. Alucard is a fantastic character with rich depth and character development. A character I absolutely hate is Rei from Star wars. She can do all this shit without training, defeated a trained jedi, and piloted the falcon better than Han solo >.>. Rei is not a deep character she is a typical poor girl rising to greatness with prodigal talent, I never feared for her, or felt she was facing dilemma, she was boring and bland.
I don't she's a bad character
Whenever I write, I try to give my characters weaknesses of 3 different varieties, typically two of the three if not all three.
1. A weakness physically. This can be in the balance of physical attributes if not a straight up lacking of them. Strength over speed, speed over strength, some kind of illness or debilitating condition, heavy lack of strength but strength of mind, etc.
2. A weakness of emotion or personality. Paranoia, a short temper, untrusting, too trusting, prone to lying, prone to bottling emotions, prone to venting emotions, procrastination, etc.
3. An attachment. Something they will sacrifice for, lie for, do things that aren't right in order to protect or to keep. This can be a person, an item, or even a mindset.
Wrote a fight scene, and the first thing in my head when I started writing was: the main character is going to lose this fight. He doesn't have the skills to win. He doesn't have the strength to win. He'll have to earn them after losing.
You must NEVER give a character their power so flippantly. It ruins the journey. If you spend the entire story shitting on the antagonist, what was the point? All the rest is fluff if you make a character strong when they aren't ready for it.
Well said! I agree 100%.
I whole heartedly agree mate, in a story I’m currently writing my main character has to decide between killing an old friend who turned traitor or hurting her enough that he can take her back home and try to change her mind
Told this to a friend of mine who asked “why not just have him win the fight and she sees how wrong she was” I told him that despite all the things she had done (turned traitor and killed hundreds of thousands of innocents and military personal) my main character had trained and fought along side her for almost 30 years, their bond was to strong the main character was willing to risk an entire mission just to make sure she was alive. Something like this isn’t as simple as “oh you’re right I’m wrong help me”
aaaaaaaaaaaaaannnnnnnnnnnnnnnndddddddddddd inb4 you make an amazing story
@@g80gzt That's the dream. It's coming along nicely so far.
I've got a character (Macbeth) who could be describes as war damaged Juliet (the princess) is in love with romeo who's dads a rich merchant. He warned her to stop seeing him because otherwise macbeth and her dad would solve it and they couldn't do it delicately. She doesn't back down so with the kings permission he kills romeo and makes it look like an accident. The entire story would have probably been kinder to alot of characters if when she didn't back down he planned the assassination and told her the details rather than just thinking he at to kill without really thinking of alternatives.
Q: why are so many SJW characters Mary Sues?
A: As in real life, they want things they didn't earn.
A I on point
Factual
Just like spoiled little children whose parents have too little backbone to say "No."
A l and they don't seem to realize that making semi invincibile female characthers in movies won't help them in real life and the only thing they are doing in this way is just killing the cinema!!
@@opqrrg And stroking their own ego.
So far the best "girl can do it!" Character in movie is Zootopia's Judy, I think.
I hope we'll get proper human character soo
She failed many times before she got work of life
I agree
@@mouthshovel I think you took it a tad too far. I agree I would like that kind of character in a human form, but calling them degenerate is a bit much.
judy is a dope character
The most human character is a furry (Judy) and its great :D
Ironic how perfect Rey ended up being as hated and forgotten as Jar Jar Binx
Jar Jar is not forgotten, although I'm sure many people have bashed their own heads into walls while trying to forget him.
Meesa would take Jar Jar over Rey. At least Jar Jar is much more meme worthy than Rey.. Uh Oh!!
At least Jar Jar had some Flaws, unlike Rey, everyone from his hometown afraid of him, and he is incredebly dumb, and he is annoying for characters and most people, that's makes him much more better than Rey, because Every good guys in SW love Rey and she won her first sabre battle even without literally having any Skills of wielding Jedi Sword
A yes a character more relatable and more human than Rey
@TedwinK66 None of that is correct, laddie.
Is a spanish speaking male mary sue a mario jose?
Maria Suero
@@Durahan13 that is just a spanish speaking mary sue
Mario Suero then.
Mario Susano
Maria susana
Man, imagine being credited with writing one of the worst characters in existence that an entire trope is named after said character
"Darth Vader the most powerful force user in the galaxy far far away, was still prevented from raising the dead"
*laughs in Disney*
Necromancy in SW when
@@opshredderytp Fallen Order. Turns out the Nightsisters are capable of some crazy shit.
@@jedimike7622 We've always kinda known of that though. I mean they rebuilt Savage from the ground up and turned him into Superman using freaky Sith sorocery. Raising the dead is not that far off from full biological reconstruction down to the very soul...
@@lannobile7260 yeah, I was just saying to the other guy, Necromancy is already in SW because of Fallen Order.
@@jedimike7622 I meant even before Fallen Order. I can think of several Sith from the Old Republic era alone that had zombie servants, were themselves basically walking corpses, sealed their souls into artifacts, etc...
The fact that the Nightsisters, who are basically the only people still around with access to lost Sith techniques and even Sidious was wary of dealing with, would have access to Sith Necromancy isn't that far of a stretch...
Anytime I insert myself into my fan fiction, I'm always like one of Stan Lee's cameos. Some nobody reacting to the shit he sees for a brief second. A lot of times this involves being at a bar.
Most of my MCs are self inserts, they're usually pretty flawed. I'm a nut for continuity and universal rules, so I try to avoid Mary Sues whenever I can. I don't find writing about Mary Sues to be fun.
I typically write about military stuff, and if I decide to self-insert, it's basically as a transport pilot or something similar. Not taking to the front line, but can still be relevant at certain times. Could be the lead pilot with a squadron under his command, but not the central guy.
Same
A fellow military writer! Nice.
You see, I'm fine with people doing self-inserts, as long as the character feels like someone who could actually exist in the world. You can make your self-insert an actual character, too. That's fine. Just don't make them the new God of the world they've entered.
Hell, I'm actually writing a book currently that has myself as the main character. It's an interesting exercise, but it kind of feels like playing a D&D character in some ways(what with having to avoid meta knowledge).
One reason why Mary Sues are hated is that their origin stories are predictable and poorly written. Along with that they act as if they do what they do every day.
I love how you used Avatar as an example here, because that had some of the best portrayals of strong women in all of media (of course, Avatar is one of the best things to come out of media). Just look at all the strong women we see in that show, and it's not because they're strong simply for being women. Azula, Katarra, Toph, they were all great characters that we learned to care about. They grew strong through practice. We weren't forced their power onto us because they're girls, and yet they did a better job of convincing me that they were strong women than most SJW characters (Brie Larson Captain Marvel, for one).
And they all had obvious flaws that only helped their characters grow stronger!
Azula being a mental case
Katana not knowing how to socialize without Sokka, cause he’s the jokes guy
Toph maybe teaching style? Definitely not being blind, that makes her incredibly overpowered with earth bending, but it was a flaw on the airships I guess so- Yeah just a good show in general
The difference between a character like Superman, and a Mary-Sue, comes down to the difference in approach:
Superman: "What would it mean for someone to have this kind of power?"
May-Sue: "I want this character to have all the power."
hey, how dare you criticise my avatar fanfic, she's only the second avatar born from the dark avatar who's mastered the four element, can activate the DARK avatar state at will, has super spirit strength, speed, endurance, regeneration, is also really hot, can also bend the secret totally real elements dark, light, energy and can also bend time.
But don't worry, sometimes she's clumsy
Thomas Lawn da freak
No offense. I'm not calling you a freak, that's just one of my substitutes for the f word
*Accidentally destroys the whole world with her powers because of her clumsyness
*Oops*
@@arctic887 lmfao
@@Crowstrove r/wooooooosh
It's perfectly fine for a character to bend minor rules with justified reasons. Like a character getting into university at 13 because they have an abnormally high IQ for their age. But to constantly change rules just so the character can do what they want is stupid. You want to see a character struggle. You want to see a character that isn't qualified for everything. You can have extremely strong or extremely intelligent characters, but it's good to remember that for everything your character is great at, have something they are terrible at. And don't bend the rules of a universe please, regardless of whether it's an OC or fan character.
Yup. It's not about a character being powerful or talented. It's how the author treats that character. If they're going to pull off an incredible feat (like doing in a few minutes like what trained professionals couldn't do in weeks like Mr. Crusher) it has to make sense. If he had been taught by Data earlier in the episode or was shown getting some kind of insight instead of pulling out a Deus Ex Machina kind of scenario from pretty much nowhere.
Sometimes the super character is a guilty pleasure for me, take one of my favorite animes the irregular at magic high. Yeah the guy is a total mary sue and everyone seems to love him with incredible abilities but there is just something about that series I love.
My favorite example of a prodigy who still has failures is Sparrow hawk from Earthsea, he starts out as a prodigy of magic but he conjures up a monster which puts him in totally over his head, so in spite of him being so gifted, he still succumbed to arrogance and got burned for playing with fire, and the Shadow monster goes around killing numerous innocent people and even almost kills him at least twice, all because of Sparrow hawk's pride. Just being a high IQ prodigy didn't make him perfect. That's the genius of Ursula K. Leguinn, she made a character that in spite of being really intelligent, was still far from flawless and had issues with his own pride.
Wait was that a jojo reference ?
can have them lack what's make a person weak, but also lack what makes a person strong?
Bruh apparently the people at tumblr think this video is right wing extremism... are... are they familiar with what extremism is? Is a man describing a bad literature trope extremism now?
Yup lol
As a 17 year old, sometimes I'm sad that I couldn't have grown up or lived in a time when most mainstream movies were made to tell a good story, and not made to promote some sort of perverted political or social agenda.
I though the Tumblr definition of "extremism" was anything that criticized women and minorities unless they also disagreed with them...
@@thedoomtrainer8292 Well the good news is that you can still find them, and without wading through all the dross that was also out at the time.
@@thedoomtrainer8292 Make sure you buy hard copies (DVD, Blu-Ray) of old good movies before they get "cancelled".
Good points but one thing: Anakin wasn’t a full may sue, he just was in episode 1. After episode 2 people acknowledge him as gifted, but annoying, hot headed, emotionally-driven and other faults. He’s still OP but he definitely has major flaws and characters in the movies and clone wars series dislike him because of it.
Right, I agree with that. He had a LOT of issues and flaws.
Without overthinking it, these characters are created by people that want all the power and none of the responsibility. That is why these characters are able to do everything but never suffer the consequences of their own actions. Also why they feel cheap, empty and false.
The characters are a reflection of the persona of the people that create them.
@Steady Logic no not really yes the player is powerful in every game but you always have workeded for the power and in EVERY game your character has flaws. Except maybe storyless puzzle games or something. Go ahead name a game with a Mary sue protagonist. If your able to then sure fuck it il accept defeat but I doubt youl name one
Korra never talks about themes of responsibility.
Nope not once, never happened.
@@noname-zp1yh she ain't a Mary sue but shit that show was hot garbage compared to the first
@@iljaradenkovs7150 Kirby. Granted, it's more for the sake of game design than anything else (Kirbyism), but still.
(But seriously, I don't know enough about the Kirby franchise to say Kirby here, so I don't know if he has any weaknesses or anything. I just know he's intentionally overpowered in every game he stars (lol pun) in. This comment is mostly in jest.)
@@noname-zp1yh Korra's just not a well written character. At first, I thought she was a complete Mary Sue; but looking back at it, Korra did have to face the consequences of her actions (consequences which usually weren't proportional to the action but whatever). Despite that though, she's still a poor character because her development seems inconsistent throughout the series and because she doesn't really fill the shoes that Aang left behind. Aside from that there's the whole "Dark Avatar" Kaiju battle which did seem quite Mary Su-ish but that's more a fault of the entire plot than just Korra's character.
In my story, My self insert is going to be the villain because I know if given that much power, I would be a tyrant.
Same
And even then, it would be appreciable with YOUR backstory, since your character's evolution is natural according to your story's setting.
Sounds kinda like one I created years back. Though I didn't initially create him that way (he started as more your standard Gary Stu) he became that way as I grew older and matured.
If it ever happens that you get lots of power and become a tyrant, hit me up if you need a loyal right hand man. I'll do whatever needs to be done and can assure you the utmost loyalty. I won't go Darth Vader and betray you at the end or anything.
All I require in return is a modest house (even a small house will suffice) in a nice low crime neighbourhood, fields nearby for my dogs to run on, a new gaming PC every 4-years (I'll buy my own games) and at least 600 grams of good quality white chocolate per week.
You're not gonna get supreme loyalty any cheaper than that.
My number is 0123456789.
I agree. If given the power every bad person would be dead. In my head it would be cleansing the world but to the world... Its murder. Best inspiration INJUSTICE SUPERMAN. Wat he did I would do too.
Anakin is broken, that's the entire point of his character. His slow corruption of his extreme power is what the prequels are about
Short answer.
Because a Mary Sue is a power fantasy of an author.
A SJW main character is a power fantasy of a group of people.
The first one has no flaws because amateur writers don't like describe their flaws.
The second one has no flaws because flaws would be disrespectful to the group of people the character represent.
A Mary Sue is what happens when a narcissist describes their self-image (ego-image).
SJW Mary sue is super narcissism-image
I think it can be wish fulfilment other than narcissism
@Txtspeak Propably because you recognize that everybody has flaws.
"A Mary Sue is what happens when a narcissist describes their self-image (ego-image)."
SJW writing a movie:
-Narcissist ✔️
-Trying to describe ideal self✔️
I think we have a winner here.
@Txtspeak I guess that could work too. The character I came up with (but can't actually use since my writing skills are as bad as they can get) are in our regular world, but they participate in war that has been going on for thousands of years. They also have to hide that war and their powers from most of the population so they're fucked in two ways at once. The main character's only good traits are moving at high speeds and good pain tolerance. She's garbage at everything else because she's based on me, lol.
Normal character: fails at something, feels shame, have his own problems
Mary Sue character: perfect at everything, just gets power out of nowhere, "chosen one", doesn't need training, universe *obeys* him(her)
you can have a chosen one character without them being a mary sue. Anakin fucked up a lot, had his ass handed to him on a couple occasions, and he was a "chosen one" to bring balance to the force. a fundamental mary sue is without flaws and is essentially a deus ex machina made into a character.
I feel like people dont understand what a true mary sue is.
Remember when we still had strong female protagonists without being Mary Sue because of good writing? When the writing itself made us believe that women were equals because of the effort that goes into what they do? When being a badass meant being able to take up arms when your life is on the line to fight a threat outside your own understanding to protect yourself and those around you rather than an exercise of exerting your own dominance through violence and one liners? Remember when writers were able to make witty political stabs at inequality because they knew how to get around hamfisted writing?
@@sasukeuchiha998 Yep. Princess Lea and Padmae from Star Wars, Ripley from Aliens, Linda Hamilton from Terminator I & II, and Adrienne Barbeau who played a major female badass in movies like Escape From New York and Swamp Thing. A STRONG female who could take care of herself can STILL BE A WOMAN!
and only her
*Kirito from sao starts sweating.*
I think there are two other big common reasons why an SJW character is a Mary Sue. One is because the character is a self insert for a narcissist who'd feel like they're admitting weakness if their character ever has to struggle or is ever wrong.
The other is because someone who really does care about morality & has a lot of empathy wrote the main character as their idea of what an ideal person should be but they can't bring themselves to write anything bad happening to such a good person.
yep
Rey vs. Jar Jar
Jar Jar:
Heesa weird, heesa disliked. But Qui Gon sees that he will be very useful. Kenobi thinks of him as of an useless lifeform, but Jinn digs deeper. Jar Jar never wants to do anything bad, but he is stupid.
When the time comes, Jar Jar establishes an alliance between Naboo colonists and the native Gungans.
In AOTC he is replacing Padme in the Senate. His goal is probably just telling Padme what happened. Palpatine however sees him, knowing that he is dumb. "If only senator Amidala was here..." Jar Jar thinks that he is worthless, dumb... no. He will show that he is worth something, that he can be useful and serious, making a fatal mistake... In ROTS we see him not only mourning Padme, but feeling incredibly guilty and devastated...
Rey:
A strong female character. Loved by everybody on her side, every enemy only cares about her. She masters flying the Falcon, lightsaber skills, force using, blaster shooting... on the first try. She has a bit of an emotional moment in ROS when fighting Palpatine, but all that darkside blah blah blah stuff is forgotten to make her kill Sheev in a cool way.
Anakin was not a Mary Sue, he was a total failure. He was powerful, but he failed at almost everything. He was his biggest enemy. His arrogance, inability to let go of his fear and his desires, to let go of his attachments...he failed as a husband and as a Jedi. He failed as a son, because if his mother knew what had become of him, she would have been horrified instead of proud. Think back to SW1 when she sees him leaving home with Qui-Gon, she has that look of hope and joy and sorrow. She hopes he will grow to be that special great person she can be proud of, but is also sad because she will miss him. But instead, he turns into a mass murderer...of children, no less.
Exactly, if he is a Mary Sue almost everyone is
I think they really had to show just how awesome Anakin was as a good guy because everyone knows how far he will eventually fall -- a crippled, broken, shadow of his former self, trapped in-between life and death in a mangled body.
Anakin was a deconstruction of the Gary Stu because he himself bought into his own legend, at least at the very end; he genuinely believed he could have power over life and death itself and refused to seek help even from those he trusted like Obi-Wan.
@@dajoler he was also outclassed with a light saber or hand to hand by yoda, obi-wan, mace, and probably kit fisto.
mace could of spanked him if he wasn't busy with arguably the strongest force user alive at the time.
@@st8lion not necessarily, Mace uses a force ability that feeds off darkside powers, so he was unimaginably powerful when fighting the Senate, while Anakin wasn't trained in the dark side yet so Mace wouldn't have that advantage.
The Sand hater and Mace were supposed to duel in Rots and Anakin would win
He was a tragic hero, and his hamartia was his arrogance. He had the potential to be great but his flaws ruined him.
because god forbid women ever be vulnerable or have flaws or not be loved by everyone around them.
MrHandss
Support the death of humanity
Do the right thing
the uploader liked this, savage!
this guy gets it
@@cognitivedissonance8406 thats why we should legalize abortion and sterelazi humans
Naked Snakey
Mandatory abortion
Yes, I can justify my hatred for the sequels. The sequels made the prequels look like Jesus made them.
And I also think that Finn was a great concept, but due to Rey and bad writing, he's a missed opportunity
My poor Finn. They did him dirty.
Also because of Chinese money, China hates black people
So, you're saying female SJW writers are lacking any depth AND any understanding of archetypes.
And probably any real human emotion.
@@LiteratureDevil Hahah, funny. I didn’t think a conservative like you could have a sense of humor, but apparently I was wrong. You are a credit to your race!
@@thatsroughbuddy8742 Odd. I was under the impression that it is progressives who have no sense of humor. After all, their whole "words are violence" philosophy demands that they treat everything as stone-faced serious. Someone's feelings might be hurt if you ever made light of anything. Progressives only laugh and crack jokes when they are being hypocritical towards what they claim to believe in.
Having a political leaning does not determine your race though. Haha. Where the heck did you get that from?
Not only did Anakin need years of training he failed a lot.
He failed to save his mother. He failed to control his anger when he killed the Tusken Raiders. He failed to control his pride and arrogance and got captured on Geonosis. He was defeated by Count Dooku.
He turned to the darkside and murdered children etc etc
It makes me laugh when people call Anakin a Mary Sue. He became frickin Darth Vader, biggest villain in cinematic history! That makes him pretty much the most failed hero ever in film.
@L Lawliet I hadn't really noticed that actually, yeah. In 1 he's essentially being built up into this future messianic figure; in 2 he's basically struggling with this expectation of greatness, and in 3 real life slaps him brutally in the face.
@L Lawliet Another Marysue trait is that the story revolves around them, ep1 was barley about Anakin just how they came across Anakin and his potential but ep1 was a bunch of different perspectives so it wasn't about him, people didn't really pay attention to him and Anakin barley had any lines. sure he was strong potentially but he was still very weak and the only thing he ever did in the whole movie was blow up the command ship which was the start of him showing his potential.
Rey is more of the Marysue in starwars. she starts off powerful when we first meet her, in ep7 as she meets each character they're super nice to her or interested in her without any reason to be, and we still don't get an answer as to why shes so powerful even more powerful than the chosen one himself.
Emperor: If I help you, will you kill some kids for me?
Anakin: Will I!?
He was something of a Sue/Stu in episode 1. From episode 2 on he’s more relatable. He fails.... a lot. He has obvious anger control issues. The Jedi code is more of a suggestion to him (okay, only for marriage) and he holds strong attachments, which also is against the code. Not counting the clone wars series, his only win in a duel is against dooku, and he had to draw from the darkside to win, and had help from Obi Wan for most of the fight. Also he is supposed to be strong with the force but we don’t really see him use many force associated powers, aside from speed and strength enhancement. Really the only thing that can be considered Stuish is his piloting, and even that can be explained by the fact he was pod racing since before he was 10
If I inserted myself in a story there wouldn't be a story because I'm too lazy to do anything, but that wont happen because I'm too lazy to write a story
rick johnson are you...me?
Thank you for being honest .
rick johnson same lmao 😂
I think you just accidentally wrote a story
It depends. Frank Miller likes to make his characters fail and suffer like he has in his own life.
Anakin is not a Mary Sue. He has very clear character flaws from the beginning (like his attachment to loved ones) that ultimately result in his downfall. Additionally, his destruction of the droid command ship is more a factor of "luck" than power, ability, or some other undeserving or undeveloped strength. A character can get lucky, and the command ship was a single isolated event.
Anakin's other triumph, the podrace, is clearly developed (he is a good podracer with practice and experience, though he has never won a race before) and is explained in the worldbuilding as a consequence of his force abilities. Anakin can see things before they happen using the same instincts, albeit unrefined, that Jedi use to block blaster bolts with lightsabers. This is actually used for worldbuilding.
The three main reasons he is not a Mary Sue are that (a) he is not liked by everyone, (b) he still suffers defeats for which he is directly responsible, and (c) his character arch is not only tragic, but failure. Initially, Anakin is refused training by the Jedi Council and it is only Qui Gon Jin who believes in the necessity of training the boy. Even Obi Wan Kenobi objects to training the boy and it is only through the death of Qui Gon that the others relent. Anakin is detained on Geonosis with Padme, forcing the Jedi to rescue him and loses his hand in a duel with Dooku (also allowing the Separatist leader to escape). Both of these are derived from established character flaws, as his hasty arrival to Geonosis is a result of his attachment to others and the recent loss of his mother makes him refuse to lose Obi Wan, and his loss to Dooku is a result of both ambition and overconfidence that is also developed throughout the film. Finally, Anakin is a tragic figure because he fails. While he is eventually redeemed an entire trilogy later (and arguably as a different character), Anakin's entire character arc in the prequel trilogy results in him being manipulated, used to destroy his order and kill his loved ones, and ultimately leaves him burning on Mustafar with only one limb.
Sorry for the mini-essay, but the idea that Anakin is a Mary Sue is really annoying to me, especially since Superman is far closer to a Mary Sue and yet you seem to dispute this.
9:12 plus Anakin had a really big flaw. He never had a father, and the desperate need of finding one led him to Darth Sidious, who turned him to the dark side
SJW: Black Panther is the first black superhero
Blade: ...
Btw: Steven Colbert even said that
Steven Colbert is an idiot.
Blade was like
Blade: *AM I A JOKE TO YOU NIGGA?*
I am willing to chalk that up to Hollywood ADD. It seems that Hollywood has it's own brand of Attention Deficit Disorder. Anything that is older than 10 years is irrelevant (unless they can drug it up to prove how racist, sexist and bigoted America is)
Blade, I Am Legend, Spawn, War Machine, Storm, Meteor Man...
@@Nyrufa please, dont confuse me with logic... my feelings
Now I know why I hate so many characters for no apparent reason. It’s cause they don’t have any flaws. They are always right and always the victim. Thank you for making me realize that.
Berzerk is the best anime with a protagonist with helllllla flaws
Thanks to this video i finnaly found what thing i hate from fire emblem fates: corrin, the protagonist (he/she is the biggest example of Mary Sue that i have seen in years)
Most of us FE fans hate Corrin. He's the only FE protagonist that I absolutely don't like,
@@dhisufiroafrozenseraphimdragon yeah, it's a shame, if corrin had at least a bit of character development the story MAY Would be different
I always hated the "Pathetic MC being treated like shit from everyone in the series for no god damn reason" trope.
I am currently writing a book with a main character who has an extremely potent potential, but he starts off just like any other character with his own flaws. He’s an elite knight, but he’s naive, inexperienced, and rash to act. He makes short sighted decisions on what he believes is right and shows mercy to people who probably doesn’t deserve it. The main character, Ember, spares a character who’s named Vera and they become a good friend and love interest, while another character Echo is spared, then becomes a perpetual pain in the ass of Ember. Ember learns to think before acting while keeping a kind-hearted demeanor in a world that throws him into constant danger. The world doesn’t bend to his will, he has to fight for his wins and power while developing along the way.
Yo that looks like a cool character idea.
You’re forgetting one thing: Anakin changed and stopped being a Mary Sue. Rey did not.
I'm an aspiring writer and I started studying stories and plots. Why? Because it takes years of STUDYING to do something and do it well. And part of that was comparing stories I like with ones I hated. So, naturally, SJW stories ended up being on my hate list.
One thing I noticed about SJW stories is that they don't actually have rising action. Like at all. And that's because rising action is created by a series of "oh shit" moments that just stack on top of each other until it hits a climax. And that doesn't work if the character has no real chance of ever failing. And people fail because of their short comings and weaknesses. So it kind of doesn't work. So an SJW story, instead of having rising action, it sort has this really drawn out exposition of characters doing these boring, mundane things, with some "action stuff" here and there, just so the SJWs can say, "See? They're struggling." And you're just like "No, they aren't. They solved that in two seconds." And I hate the "action stuff" the most because you're just like 'oh, something's finally going to happen... no? Really? They're just going to zap and it's done.... Okay..."
As for their outrage against Black Widow, I don't get that. Many stories with a female protagonist ends with an epilogue years later where the protagonist has *gasp* children! It's has its roots in a very real phenomenon called "Nesting," which is described as a woman's compulsion to make things suitable and safe for her offspring. It's actually why women are more concerned then men with how the house looks and tends to kick into high gear during pregnancy, especially the third trimester. And in context to a story, a woman has a child at the end of her story because it shows she's satisfied the world is safe again. Well, with Black Widow, she doesn't get that symbolic ending. It means she will always have one purpose: To fight. And even if you don't plan on having children of your own and feel it's not for every woman, we should still feel that sense of sorrow for the fact Black Widow doesn't even have that choice. That's the tragedy. For people who are supposedly, oh so pro choice, they seem to be unconcerned that a woman just had her choice taken.
Oh yes a lot of the boring mundane things can be seen in a fair number of marvel comics these days. Where they will talk about food or end up explaining how a car works to you. That or go on and on, making you question what the heck are they trying to tell you here. By using some sort of long word no one besides them seems to know about. Only for it to be about coffee. So rather then using the word coffee, which everyone understands. They end up using some long word i doubt most have heard about.
Which the unstopable wasp which was brought back after failing. Is a good case of this awful story telling. You will have action that lasts for about maybe a page or less. Along with other marvel comics having had a issue with fights ending in one punch. Which a fight ending that fast is not a struggle. At best it's showing someone as being awesome, skilled or bad ass. Not as weak or a struggle. Given being injured, wounded or the fight making you tired out to the point you can't stand or are force to flee for your life. Now that would be a struggle, not one punch and it's over. Given it's not only they forget struggles exist but also mental ones. Which that does end up being a very annoying trope when used poorly as it is done in the cases like say marvel comic. Oh action, finally something enterta.... Oh it's over. Given i can't call it a fight when it's so one sided more often then not and lasts for such a short time, that action stuff seems a fitting name for it. For it doesn't end up advancing the story or setting anything up, it also doesn't last long enough to be entertaining, it's just there. It just exists.
Given you have one punch-man and Mob Psycho 100, which deal with characters who are very powerful for their setting. Yet give them flaws and mental challenges. Making the characters interesting, due to things not always going their way. In Mob case, bottling up his emotions which lead to his powers pouring out and being unable to control them sooner or later. Mob is not very good at dealing with social related things and can be a bit two trusting. Saitama would say save the day but not get the credit for it or even demonize for it. That and his powers get in the way of his goal, he wants a challenge, a true fight again. Yet his powers stop him from reaching that goal.
Which yeah there seems to be a strange twisted thing when it comes to their writing. For they want the characters to not have a happy ever after ending but at the same time don't want to go for a dark fantasy. Leading to some strange mix of we are meant to believe the world is total and pure crap, yet the whole world bends the knee for the main character in question. Bending reality to suit her. Which can lead to a confusing tone. Given this world seems full of evil but at the same time, the main character is able to deal with it easily no matter what is thrown at them. Making you wonder how they have not fixed all the worlds problems or why these problems still exist, when they can just go to the source of the problem and bang fix it with a snap of their fingers.
@@forestelfranger You hit on a ton of stuff I haven't thought of. When you look at writers like Oscar Wilde, Mark Twain, and Charles Dickens, their prose is beautiful, but they don't beat around the bush with their meaning. The purpose of the prose is to be appealing and attractive so you want to read it and engage with that author's message. They never talk down to their audience, because they want you to hear their message.
SJWs on the other hand create this "secret language" where they smugly talk down to their audience about everything. And if you don't like the way they're talking to you, well, you're just a racist or one of the other seven deadly "-ists" within their cult. You deserve to be talked to like that because you're just a racist. Which makes me scratch my head because are these people trying to change the world? Because their smugness is going to convince exactly zero racists to stop being racist. It might intimidate good people into silence in fear of being called racist, but no actual change for those who really do want to cause minorities harm. And when you intimidate an otherwise good person, you're not fighting anything. You're just being a bully.
One thing I learned from my studies is how much a tit for tat writing is. It's part of communication. And it's so important for me, who is trying to become a writer, to understand how to engage an audience. This tends to mean that I don't get to always write exactly how I want to write, but I feel my message is too important to only engage people who think like myself.
Exactly. SJWs don't human very well. The world of superheroes has its roots deep in the Pulp Era of fiction. So when a typical fan of a superhero comic picks up a new issue, they're looking for action, twists, and a heroic struggle. To normal people that means fights, things going wrong, and facing nigh impossible odds. But SJWs don't write stories. They write porn...oppression porn. They write for people who aren't so much interested in the poorly written story as they are in seeing heroes being oppressed and the oppressor being destroyed in the most brutal way possible.
Concerning Black Widow, I'm not surprised at their outrage. I mean, the kind of people who got angry at that are the same kind of people who think getting an abortion is something you should brag about.
Well written and well put. As a fellow indie author I wish you the best in your work. Let us know when you have things ready for us to see!
That's a decent point. It's pretty evident in Star Wars Episode 8. The entire movie is plague with a bunch of 'oh shit' moments with the characters as a whole but especially Rey.
The Resistence is running out of resources and fuel and though and yet the First Order can't catch them.
Kylo has a chance to shoot the bridge but for whatever reason he decides not. It doesn't matter as the bridge is destroy, Leia is flung out of the ship. Leia just uses the force and returns.
Finn and Rose go on a mission where they are captured and thrown in prison but that's okay, the person they are looking for is just...there. He just walks out of prison and helps them and requires no logical payment in return.
Rey is captured by Snoke and Kylo under the pretense that Kylo kill Rey in order to complete his training. No biggie. Snoke is killed because he doesn't have spatial awareness. Holdo then precedes to use a maneuver which while high effective (and dumb) also somehow doesn't kill all 4/5 of our main characters.
BB8 scans the base they are in. It has only one way in and one way out. Until...it doesn't.
Rose's stupid kamikaze into Finn doesn't kill them both. The First Order does not take fire on them and they're back inside the base with no conceivable way of how they got there with no functioning transportation. Rian was simply done with them and he didn't want them to be in danger any longer so they 'teleported' back.
The Resistance is now a group small enough to fit on the Falcon. None of their supposed allies on the outer rim decided to come to their aid. They are effectively as of this movie entire narrative are destroyed. But...they have everything they need as it cuts to some rando kid who can just...use the force.
The movie's set up for trials and tribulations literally didn't matter.
Even the Disney movie Zootopia, which had an agenda, still made room for its main character to struggle and work hard to reach her goal
@Antasma1
yeah, he said some of them were good characters
Yeah and she used her wits to overcome them and male was utterly strong and charismatic. And the main villain was a female. Its good actually.
A ploy that they took from Pixar, no doubt
@CyberMatt16 Anti racism
Thats why that was a decent movie.
I will just make one comment on the Black Widow backlash over her being sterilized: she was ashamed not solely because of the sterilization. It was because it was done to her without her consent and if she had been given the choice, she would not have wanted to do it. And for the record, I'm a woman saying this. The people who cried foul missed the point. HER choice was taken away to reduce her to a killing machine. They wanted her to be a weapon not a person.
I remember Sarah Connor, one of the very best female characters ever, being proud of her motherly side.
She tells Miles Dyson:
"Men like you built the hydrogen bomb. Men like you thought it up. You think you're so creative. You don't know what is like to really create something, to create a life, to feel it growing inside you... all you know how to create is death."
But nowadays, femininity and motherhood are like taboo subjects for modern storywriters, because they think that having motherly desires is not only bad, but also a weakness.
They literally think that women that want kids are weak, and feel no remorse in saying it...
I don't know, but I think they have a term for that...
... Oh, yeah, they call it "Sexism".
I once came across an ATLA fic where Aang’s ‘childhood friend’ magically turned up and apparently was a half Avatar so she could bend both Air and Water, (and of course she was a Master in both), but somehow she could also bend Lighting despite not being a Firebender and she called herself a ‘Stormbender’.
She was also drop dead gorgeous with eyes that ‘changed colour depending on her mood’, could beat Ty Lee in hand to hand combat and had Zuko, Sokka, Aang, Haru and Jet (who was miraculously alive) fighting for her affections, (of course she ended up with Zuko after teaching him to ‘honor himself’ and became the next Firelady). 🙄🙄🙄
So it's like a female chad.
ExsertZaid667 so it’s like a Stacy?
Female chad= Stacy (i know form 4 chan)
nope, a disabled gay chad "of colour" is the correct answer ;D
@transwomen aresexistmen I have a hard time believeing you're a troll, either that or you're dedicated to trolling...
ThatOneWolf 1119 with a name like that it’s likely a troll
Stan Lee has said he wanted his superheros to have flaws. To have REAL problems, and have real reactions to the problems of having powers. And for there to be problems with said powers.
That idea was rejected once and was scoffed at since back then, and apparently once again, people don't want to see heroes with flaws. They idolize heroes. They don't realize that by accepting someone else has weaknesses, doesn't mean that they are admitting to their own.
This mentality is leaking its way into entertainment. The poor authors are faced with the choice of bending to the demands that their characters be perfect, or make a well rounded character with flaws thus insuring they don't get readers interest.
Best superhero movie ever; Watchmen. Each of the heroes is savagely compromised by some psychological disorder.
Real flaws not being freaking clumsy or shy for relatable character's you can feel for not flawless mary sues.
Actually, all that "they should have FLAEWS" is pretty damn widspread and boring knee-jerk reaction.
*Realistic* reactions, problems and solutions would be nice. Like how Superman knows where he is most needed? What are his priorities, if he cannot save everyone? What experience, insight did he gain?
So I'm guessing you were a fan of how Luke was handled in The Last Jedi?
and that's how black panther became a thing
Anakin was born with every trait of a Mary Sue yet isn’t, because unlike most Mary Sue’s he makes mistakes. So many mistakes to the point where he’s one of the biggest causes for the galaxy going to shit.
Why Are So Many SJW Characters Mary Sues?
Because it's their "power fantasy". I almost feel sorry for them; it would be funny if it weren't so pathetic
Ah what the heck I'll laugh anyway.
Ignacio Leikis God like reference there my guy
Return of The Joker was a bloody masterpiece
Disliking them is evil, theyre always right, theyre faster, better and stronger, theyre never wrong, deserve love from everyone no matter their actions, best at everything, magnet, flawless...
In real life, this is called narcissistic personality disorder.
Except they're not marry sue? It seems the alt right calls any character that is any part left towards them marry sue. Name me a supposive marry sue im sure I can point out why theyre not
@@declaringpond2276 Unrelated to actual mary sues, I'm making a joke about real people with personality characteristics that we generally attribute to mary sues, which is partly true in itself because it seems so alike. Narcissists consider themselves huge mary sues if you think about it.
The political argument that alt-rights accuse SJW characters of being mary sue is not entirely true, but it dos not mean it's completely idiotic. I think you meant to talk about shitlords. Shitlords are not always alt right they sometimes just pretend to be and believe to be edgelords just by copying 4chan shitlords with no self-reflexion until they believe their own lies.
Only problem with this being that the Mary Sue-traits are imaginable in real life. Even on these people. Nothing wrong with that from an audience's point of view. However, as soon as you move the story to a screen, these traits become real (in the fictional world they're portrayed in).
I imagine a character who believes(!) himself to be a Mary Sue but actually NOT being one might be quite interesting to see on screen.
Or a God complex.
I have an acquaintance that's a bit of a Mary Sue, but I don't think it's a personality disorder. I think it's a mixture of insecurity, denial, and a quick-temper that causes them to believe (or seem to believe) that they are above others or that they can do no wrong, coupled with their instinct to block and defend whenever something goes against their beliefs, or even something adjacent to their beliefs.
They don't understand story arcs and character development. They confuse 'strong' with 'perfect'
Paula Smith was not a professional writer when she created Lt. Mary Sue. I give her a pass for this.
As for the professional writers, don't they know better? And we point back to the above comment as to why.
They also confuse right with white.
@@thatHARVguy those professional writers don't tho. most writers for mainstream media are white men. They know that female characters and poc characters are making money these days and are attempting to meet market demand but since they are white male writers who have no idea how to write a decent non white non male character it ends up being shitty as hell and people just assume it's a Mary Sue while not knowing what a mary sue even is.
However on the flip side, the public still needs to support their work to pave the way for better but lesser known writers who CAN write decent female or poc characters that don't come off as the badly written "Mary Sue"
@@lolas.7024 "The públic still need tô suport their work..." No we don't. Just the real good writing characters. There a lot of them.
"..battling Nazi zombies."
Nintendo 2020: WRITE THAT DOWN WRITE THAT DOWN.
wait
JJ Abrams NEEDS to see this video.
Oh, no he won't listen! He has airPods on!
"The greatest sin of an SJW Sue it refuses to die" Made me thing of this quote.
“Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience. They may be more likely to go to Heaven yet at the same time likelier to make a Hell of earth. This very kindness stings with intolerable insult. To be "cured" against one's will and cured of states which we may not regard as disease is to be put on a level of those who have not yet reached the age of reason or those who never will; to be classed with infants, imbeciles, and domestic animals.” C.S. Lewis
Lewis knocks it out of the park here, doesn't he? Not too many writers any more who actually think. Especially film writers, amiright?
@@tackyman2011 Actually there are. Just look a bit closer, there are still good films, still interesting films. And back then there where also a bunch of mediocer and bad films, you just don't remember them anymore...or have never heard of them, because they where bad or mediocer.
@@aquila4460 tbh I think SJW Sue's are mainly a hollywood staple because cash cow and fear of no sales (ironically backfiring) however there are brilliant characters in indie films, for example in "never let me go" the love interest of the main character is rich, powerful, everyone loves him, he could be seen as a Mary Sue at the surface level as there's no explaination as to how he gets there, however in the film it revolves around his fatal flaw, the fact that he's in love with the main character, a sexually confused 15 year old boy.
The C.S. Lewis quote is universal here. It identifies the faults of authoritarian extremism, regardless of political spectrum. A dictatorial theocracy is no better than a secular dictatorship. A far-right dictator is no better than a far-left dictator and both are no better than the middling dictator because at the end of the day, they are all still fucking dictators.
But wait...if C.S. Lewis is able to identify all the dictators...then he must be a filthy pan-literal author and thus sadly an SJW as per identity culture.
Oh no...
Noble intentions are all well and good but always remember "hate the sin not sinner"
And with that statement, you have accurately described every main character on Mysticons.
Or every main character of an isekai anime, minus Sora and Shiroe.
To be fair, those shows are for power fantasy. Doesn't mean their stories are good though. You can do power fantasy so long as its written carefully, whether it be to subvert the genre like Saitama or fully embrace the genre like Kenshiro. On top of that, the tone of your show is important too. Perfect characters can more easily fly in a comedy than they would in a serious drama (unless your story is just balls off the walls crazy like Medaka Box).
And every hero in Disney star wars past, present AND future I bet
Force awakens Rey - Orphaned girl who turns out to be brave and heroic
Rogue one Jyn - orphaned girl who turns out to be brave and heroic
TLJ Rose - well you see where I'm going
@@four-en-tee and also that guy from re:zero,he sorta dies alot
_Natsuki Subaru, the guy that dies every single time but always tries to continue through no matter the cost, is who you're looking for._
@@nguyenten6877 I read, "he dies a lot" and immediately thought of Dean Winchester..... My mind is so messed up.
Mary Sue's are like Orochimaru no matter how many times you kill em they just keep finding ways to come back
This is a highly controversial statement, but if you want a Mary Sue in a story, make it that every other character is similarly overpowered to give Mary a good fight, as a short fight is something no one wants.
So, Infinity Guantlet=the power of a mary sue?
That's a good way of looking at it lol
@@LiteratureDevil and yet Captain Marvel will be able to defeat it because she's a girl! R.I.P MCU...
@@zuzoscorner The movie isn't even out yet and I already have a good idea where it's going.
@@LiteratureDevil more frustrating is when there ARE good fleshed out female characters...an the SJW crowd are still demand perfection
Comment for exposure
I was about to comment (while watching the video) something OverlySarcasticProductions said about Mary Sues that I agreed with, that Mary Sues warp reality around them with their very presence, but as I got further into the video you ended up mentioning that. It’s interesting to see that people are mentioning this key trait of Mary Sues, instead of simply listing the vague “too perfect” explanation that everyone uses to justify a self-insert or a character they don’t like as a Mary Sue. Good work.
Yeah, it's important to distinguish between a powerful character and a Mary Sue. It's very easy to point at a powerful or talented character and call them a Mary Sue. Context is key. A good example I like to refer to is Light from Death Note. In any other story, he'd probably be a Mary Sue. He's a genius, charming, handsome, and popular. But, in the context of the story, he needs to be that way or else there would BE no story.
To me the two main traits of a Mary Sue are that they 1) Have no meaningful flaws that negatively impact their character, being portrayed as "perfect", and 2) They are good at everything with no realistic justification for being so good. Them warping the story and reality around them is just a side effect of the horrible writing skills of the writer behind the character.
Literature Devil Exactly: a level of power and intellectual prowess like Light’s works in the context of the show, and the rules of the show’s universe don’t make an exception for him, either, so he’s just a powerful character. I think another difference that can show up between Mary Sues and very powerful characters is Mary Sues can have the miraculously high-level power and skill that you mentioned in the video (because of their perfection), but that power also comes from their Mary Sue-ness (the way the author warps reality around the Sue) instead of just being a character trait that was developed offscreen (like with a master/mentor character) or is explained through other means. For example, I’ve seen an annoying trait with self-insert OCs-turned Mary Sues in fan fiction for the anime Soul Eater: a teenage OC with a “dark and mysterious past”, who is an impossible hybrid of the different races/species in the anime’s universe (eg. a part demon/witch/death god hybrid), who comes to learn at the anime’s resident “Hogwarts academy but for Demon Hunters”...then they’re confronted with one of the most powerful and egocentric members of the show’s main cast, and they beat the canon character’s ass in a fight on their very first day of school with no trouble. There is no reason for the Sue’s established special level of power and skill when they’re just a teenager (aside from the whole “Sue is an incredibly rare and canonically unprecedented hybrid” excuse). The author doesn’t even show the OC using a move they’ve only been starting to practice to show the reader that they’ve had some sort of extensive off-screen training progress before their introduction; the author just lazily handwaves it with the OC’s species status and leaves it at that, or gives no explanation at all.
So, this applies more to Sues in fanworks than to professional TV/comic/movie writers creating Canon Sues, but I’m of the opinion that warping reality around a Mary Sue includes not just the established lore of its universe; it also includes the established patterns/rules of canonical characterisation in that universe as well. In my Soul Eater example, the Sue winning against one of the most powerful main characters on their first day at Shounen Battle School (without any or little explanation) often involved making the canon character uncharacteristically regress in the power growth they had at that point in the canon timeline, or making them act out-of-character by turning some of their ego into even more stupidity than they had in canon. Since we aren’t given a proper explanation for the Sue’s incredible power, the way they win fights comes down to warping the canon portrayal of the other characters, who would more than likely win a battle against a new teenage character going on the establishment/development of their power and victories in canon.
So oftentimes, the status as a ridiculously powerful character in a Mary Sue can be caused by the reality-distorting that defines them as a Sue, where powerful non-Sue characters have strength that originate from character traits and/or training instead of the universe revolving around them.
Light isnt a mary sue because he is a villain protagonist. He broke bad and went heisenberg.
A good example is superman, or one puch man his comedy spinoff. Despite being stronger most of the time they have inner conflicts. Saitama fight the depressive mood he got by being bored from being so op and never getting a challenge and superman lost everything, so he wants to protect everything and created that superman persona with this unweavering will, despite being just a "human" that was raised by farmers in kansas that struggles with life like everybody else. People trying to challenge that persona and make him utilizing his empathy are the things that can really hurt him deep on an emotional and mental level. That is if he is well written. One more reason for hat to snyder portraying him as cynical jerk.
@@LiteratureDevil Thank you. This is the argument I get in with people when they try to say if Star War's Rey is a Mary Sue, then so is James Bond. No, James Bond is acceptable because, when he is introduced, we know he is an experienced agent with years of training. Even then, Bond often messes up and gets his butt kicked before turning things around and winning. A Mary sue comes into an already established universe and, without training or rational explanation, is immediately the best at all things and succeeds without trying, breaking the founding rules in the universe it invades. It's as if I wrote a story where James Bond recruits a high school kid who, without training, is accepted into the agency, kicks James Bond's butt during training, then goes on to single-handedly defeats every major James Bond villain in a day.
Even years later, this video is still great. Even more relevant now than in 2018.
@@loturzelrestaurant hm?
@@glauberglousger6643 Yeah. I like Literature-Devil but he seems to be kinda influenced by the laughable 'Culture War', sooooo maybe he should chill and casually watch "Some More News" and maybe at least the Magnum-Opus-Video by "Knowing Better"?
@@glauberglousger6643 Glauber?
@@loturzelrestaurant yes?
@@glauberglousger6643 A Reply to my comment ewould be nice.
I kinda disagree on Anakin being a Mary Sue though.
Yes, he is strong, and he IS the "chosen one". But AT LEAST his skills have some explanation. He worked his entire life with technology as a Kid, he created C3PO and even made the maintence of his own pod for racing (he OF COURSE has talent, but he at least have been using his skills for a long time), he also had R2-D2 help to destroy the Separatist base.
His personality has a LOT of flaws: His is overconfident and stuborn. He jumps into action without thinking (reason why he lost his arm, trying to fight a sith lord alone). And he does give in to the dark side temptaion several times, killing even a village of sand people, even children and woman.
So while I do agree Anakin had some ass-pulled abilities, he is REALLY not perfect, and I don't think that alone is enough to make him a mary sue.
We should also specify what a Mary Sue is not because you have the opposite problem of authors getting _too_ paranoid when they are not in fact writing Mary Sues.
1. A powerful character is NOT a Mary Sue.
It is not power that makes a character a Sue. It's *UNEARNED* or *UNDESERVED* power. It's universe-breaking power. Your character can be physically strong but emotionally fragile (think Lapis from Steven Universe or Elsa from Frozen). Being able to lift heavy weights might be great in specialized situations, but you're not gonna get invited out for pizza just because you can benchpress a whale.
2. A talented, unique, or gifted character in SOME areas (not ALL) is also NOT a Mary Sue.
This trips a lot of people up. They think if the protagonist isn't Blandy McAverage Face, then they've got a Mary Sue on their hands. Not true! In fact, your character SHOULD have distinctive quirks and unique abilities to stand out in your story. Maybe your character is a really good tech nerd or socially charismatic (believably, not the whole world falling at their feet with little effort), maybe they're good at killing stuff or repairing toasters. Whatever. There's nothing wrong with that.
All you have to do is balance out what they're good at with real flaws, and no, CLUMSY is not a flaw, especially if other characters still find them "cute" for it.
Well the other thing to consider is almost any level of skill or power is okay, if the character is shown to earn it over time. We the audience/readers need to see a progression. In the case of Rey from star wars it would of been nice to at least see her fix a speeder bike or something before on screen before she instantly fixed the Millennium Falcon. Or maybe her first repair job failed to work properly and they ended up crash landing on a planet. Just enough to escape the Tie fighters, but not enough to safely fly through space to their real destination.
One of the biggest signs of Mary Sue's is not just being powerful but instantly powerful as needed with no hints or build up along the way. We don't even get so much as a Training Montage of Rey really. She did less work than Luke did with Yoda, in less time. Yet she became a badass TM instantly. Huge Power jumps via Time skip is a huge red flag for a potential Mary Sue. As much as I like the series Naruto is really bad at this with a lot of it's characters. At times it seemed like every one but Naruto always got off screen power ups out of no where. While every thing Naruto did seemed to hurt/kill him so he got weaker over time with his previously hard earned skills and abilities.
I almost think Naruto's author was so worried about him being a Gary Stu they went the opposite route and over nerfed him constantly while giving Sasuke constant free power ups.
The Golden Age Lex Luthor. He was just your run of the mill business tycoon, not a level 9 intellect.
Very good advice. One of my favorite characters is Shigeo “Mob” Kageyama, the protagonist in Mob Psycho 100.
He’s established to be the strongest Esper in the city. Effortlessly taking out Evil Spirits and possessing psychic powers that could allow him to tear apart the city if he felt like it.
What makes him relateable? He’s really incompetent in areas outside of Psychic Powers, and as he points out, psychic powers don’t make you popular. He’s in really bad shape, gets poor grades in school, is cripplingly socially awkward, can’t confess to the girl he has a crush on, and lives in the shadow of his younger brother Ritsu (who, despite being a year younger, is taller, more fit, gets better grades, is beloved by the school, and is in the student council). Ritsu gets that way by working his ass off and applying himself in anything he puts his mind to. In the second episode, Mob joins the body improvement club cuz he’s sick of being a weakling; he wants to be swol and in good shape. The results are not immediate however; he’s not even able to finish their morning mile run before passing out. Yet he keeps on trying, never giving up, and the BIC guys are very nice and constantly help him whenever they can, because they can see his determination.
By the second season, Mob joins a marathon, wanting to finish in the top 10. He managed to make #79 (out of 700) before passing out, but it’s acknowledged that he’s improved a lot; something the audience can see.
Nothing about what Mob desires is given to him for free. He has to put in effort to do so. Some things are, in fact, impossible, but he still puts in the effort and we get to see him grow, even if he did fail.
Hell, the final boss of the 1st season is an old Esper who’s obsessed with Psychic Powers and believes that, since he’s an Esper, the world should kiss his ass and give him whatever he wants. He starts ranting about nobody giving him the attention he feels entitled to, and the animation deforms to make him look like a giant baby. Mob repeats himself: Psychic Powers don’t make you popular. Determination, kindness, moral character, etc. that’s what makes you popular; it’s far better to be a good person than some Uber perfect super person.
I actually really enjoy that George R.R. Martin put in a Mary Sue into his writing on purpose. I surmise the reasoning is he probably wanted to show is that it's not the character that's an issue, but how you write a story.
@@Ouchimoo Eh? Which character is a Mary Sue in GoT?
As of now, 7,200 politicized fanfic writers hate this video.
"Don't ask questions
Just consume product
Then get excited for next products."
As far as I can tell they're all triggered by me mentioning Ray for a few minutes at one point. The video isn't even about her lol.
@@LiteratureDevil
"Don't ask questions
Just consume product
Then get excited for next products."
That's the motto of today's consumerist society. 😏 Gotta keep all those businesses & corporations solvent & their workers employed, right?... That's one of the things that amuses me about SJWs: They consider themselves as righteous crusaders for underdog minorities, but they ignore the class gap & still support consumer capitalism. (No, I'm not a socialist...I just prefer small local businesses to big transnational firms. Small biz guys can be held accountable)
@@LiteratureDevil She's literally the only example you brought up in a video that talks about how it's some rampant virus that's ruining everything. It's a video that claims that "so many" SJW characters are Mary Sues, and the three characters you mentioned that even remotely fit your point were 1) A fanfic character from the 70's that was specifically designed as a *parody* of similar character trends, bringing a bunch of traits in the Star Trek fanwriting community into one amalgam, 2) Rey, who apparently wasn't the point of the video, and 3) Black Widow, who you admit isn't actually a Mary Sue but oh just you wait guys she will be.
The rest of it was just another screed about how being an SJW makes you mean and ugly and fat, and a passable overview of what a Mary Sue is. Where are all of these Mary Sue SJWs you're talking about? What would an SJW character look like if they were done right? What does SJW even mean when it comes to a character? What makes Rey an SJW? Or is it that it's only an SJW character if you can find enough wrong to vaguely relate them to a Mary Sue? What is the actual relationship between these things, and why does it actually matter? Is there a causative aspect to it? If so, what is it?
Or, like here, are you just going to assume that everyone who didn't like your video is a crazy feminist who just likes Rey cause she's a woman with power and dismiss any criticism or further questioning regarding the point of this video on assumption and stereotyping?
@Chris Hansen When you don't have a reply to legitimate criticism so you just call it 'salt'.
@Chris Hansen So you don't know me, or my position, or what I think, or what I know, but your first reaction upon seeing me ask some questions and criticize the original work, its content or lack thereof, and the creator's response to people thumbing down his video being that every single one of them must be mad just because he mentioned Rey was to call me salty and avoid the question.
Again, knowing literally nothing about me. And your second reaction was to outright lie about what SJW stands for, since you don't just get to redefine terms that you use and expect everyone to accept that out of hand, and double down on refusing to answer any of the criticisms or questions. Well bravo. Guess you really showed me. I'm thoroughly cowed by your prodigious intellect and probable inability to recognize sarcasm.
Made me remember of Ladybug in Miraculous Ladybug. Like even she stalks and even commit crimes, she is still rewarded at the end of the day. And she punishes people who disagrees with her like Chloe who dislikes Marinette because Chloe’s Mother gave Marinette the attention and care, although they met once, that Chloe didn’t even get from her mother and her being stalker to Adrien.
Anakin made sense to be the Mary Sue at first in my opinion, he’s THE Chosen One, he’s meant to be THE Jesus Christ of Jedi, so it makes sense that they show his potential even at an early age, which makes his fall so much more tragic and terrible, into an old, crippled wretch kept alive by a suit. The problem was how it was actually dealt with by George Lucas.
The only mary sue I like is the one and only
Doomslayer
**metallica plays**
well, it's not even a mary sue...
Based on the testament from the game, he was betrayed, is angry as hell, and even got sucessfully sealed... making it far to be perfect ... but likeable like no other ... and cool ... and fucking badass
To be fair, Doomslayer has his flaws. He's extremely simplistic bordering on stupidity, impatient, and his past is filled with failure.
And now he’s slicing literal demons in half with a fucking chainsaw
Doom Slayer lost to the demons before, failed to protect his people, etc. Even the super OP Doom Slayer isn't a Mary Sue
I mean, he has his flaws, but if the sues count characters like doomguy, then doomguy is obviously the best
Good news is that Black Widow had good development in Endgame.
тнιѕ ιѕ тнє σиℓу ѕρσιєя тнαт ιѕ αℓℓσωє∂
Well...
And what did it cost?
@@kankeydong2500 everything
I really liked the “Woman representation battle” parts in both Infinity War and Endgame. They were super cool and they didn’t get so in your face about it
"Mary Sue"
Anime term: "Generic Isekai Protagonist"
I think what *could* be interesting is a story that portrays being a mary sue as a bad thing like being so perfect that you gets overworked by everyone relying on you, or a broken down military force losing their mary sue and realising no one knows how to fight anymore.
Batman: Crime created him and with all the money, skills, and intelligence he has, the loss of his family haunts him the rest of his life. He never wants anyone to go through what he did and when he fails, it hurts him as well.
Spiderman: The weight of the world on the shoulders of a young man who wants nothing more than to study, date, and lead a normal life. Losing his uncle and allowing it to happen, he is haunted and also invigorated with Uncle Ben's famous quote "with great power comes great responsibility."
And these are the reasons why I love these characters. They are real.
@Un-broken and victorious how would having literally perfect characters work? If they are all perfect they'd all agree on everything, get along etc. That part sounds like it needs work but the rest sounds really interesting
Not to mention relatable. Haveing to balace relationships with that life. We get glimses of that's life outside of the hero buissnis and that's cool and adds to them.
@Un-broken and victorious ok well it sounds pretty good in that case
Support the death of humanity
Do the right thing
@Un-broken and victorious personally, if you're planning on having the two groups meet and interact, I'd like to see the psychological impact meeting a genetically perfect version yourself would be like and the impact of finding out you're a clone of someone that is effectively a lesser version of you
I don't even like Star Wars and I was able to poke holes in the logic that fans used to defend Rey's characterization. Luke was not a Mary Sue; Han and Leia treated him like a stupid, annoying younger brother constantly. He was a trained pilot. His two friends from his homeworld were pilots as well and Luke discussed training that he had done prior to leaving Tatooine in the Death Star mission briefing. Then he got his arm lopped off in his first lightsaber fight and got knocked out by a mummy in the opening act of the first movie and by a yeti in the second.
Even Obi Wan said, "I've heard you've become quite a good pilot yourself." Luke's piloting ability was properly foreshadowed. His decision to leave Tatooine was agency on his part. Rey is content being a scavenger, but when the Empire, errr FO attack, she suddenly can jump into a ship that "hasn't flown in years" and fly it like the best star pilot in the galaxy. She's forced off Tatooine, err Jakku, not because she makes a choice, but because the plot dictates it. As you rightly said. Luke got his ass kicked by a mummy. Got tossed down in the bar. Gets mocked by Han Solo. Gets mocked by Princess Leia. Is nearly drowned by a sewer monster; watches his mentor die, and only in the end, through grit and determination, and Obi Wan helping him, achieves a victory.
Knocked out by a mummy, i snorted lmao
According to the Scripture of Social Justice:
There is no Shame, only Shamers.
There is no Sin, only Sinners.
There is no Hate, only Haters.
There is no Love, only Lovers.
There is no Beyond, only Today.
1. What do Shamers do? They shame. Therefore shame exists.
2. What do Sinners do? They sin. Therefore sin exists.
3. What do Haters do? They hate. Therefore hate exists.
4. What do Lovers do? They love. Therefore love exists. (This one sounds weird ngl.)
The argument falls apart because when you describe that the emotion doesn't exist, but people who use the emotion exist, you contradict yourself and have to either admit the emotion does exist, or the person who uses the emotion isn't using it.
Your definition of Mary Sue just makes me even more mad at people that call Korra (from Legend of Korra) a Mary Sue.
Korra is like an anti mary-sue... First season seems like she is a mary sue but after season 1 past avatars are gone...poisoned and stuck in a wheel chair
for 2 years,ptsd for 3 years... Defeated by kuvira..
To me Korra is badly written, but the main character is absolutely not a mary-sue. Her character is actually one of the few things of that show that had been made well.
Well, she ain't a Mary Sue but I still Think LoK is a terrible spin off and that Korra is an obnoxious person through out the majority of the story.
@@tomebasic2843 that's fine to think. Not every person has a likeable personality.
Korra is not a Mary Sue but she's still a badly written character and the Legend of Korra sucks as a show.
"Social Justice is like a plauge, it makes everything worse."
**Several people are typing**
This is literally saying that justice in society is bad. The idea of an 'SJW' is a dumb term anyway, and nobody aside from people without a fucking clue what they're talking about use it.
@@herbivorethecarnivore8447 Nonsense. SJW's are well defined and sadly exist.
@@Justheory11b If they're so 'well defined', so ahead and precisely define it for me.
@@herbivorethecarnivore8447 I have no interest in leading you to water only to watch you refuse to drink.
@@Justheory11b So you can't. Okay. So you were lying, thanks for clearing that up.
The Star Wars Death Star thing really irks me. People saying "Luke blew up the Death Star no sweat, see, Gary Stu!" I mean...did everyone just forget that Vader almost picked him off? If Han hadn't knocked him away and saved Luke's ass, he wouldn't have had that clear shot, in addition to being dead as shit. There was more tension in the trench run from A New Hope than both new movies combined, lol.
And several people tanked the brunt of attacks along the way just so he could make that shot, too. It's not like he U-turned, teabagged vader's ship, then made the shot and flew off.
@@megasuperiordude Exactly. Heck, the movie even took the time to show the survivors of the trench run: One Y-Wing, and two X-Wings. Everyone else died. If Luke were a Gary Stu take an X-Wing and destroyed the Death Star on his own. The whole reason all those other pilots had to die was to show that the Death Star was not something to take lightly, and that Luke surviving long to make that shot was him overcoming near impossible odds, but not without loss, sacrifice, strife, and outside help (the last second save by the Falcon). Luke would not have needed any of that if he were a Gary Stu.
If you want a Star Wars movie with a Gary Stu main character, go watch Solo.
Agreed. Stakes, sacrifice, tension, the real chance they'd all fail and die. None of that is in the latest movies.
He was also a skilled pilot back on his home planet, known for being capable of shooting small Wamprats from far distances with great precision. He didn't just become a skilled pilot out of nowhere.
Vader even acknowledged how the force was strong with him during that event, which can imply that the force was acting through Luke just how it did in Rogue One with Chirrut, or Obi Wan helped him since he was speaking to him through the force.
I'm a feminist but I think a lot of people nowadays make characters simply to bring diversity (i.e. making female protagonists when we have a lot of male ones). This isn't necessarily a bad thing as diversity is important, but then I think writers forget to actually write the character and just use, for example, being a woman, as a character trait. People don't admire Luke Skywalker because he is a man, it's because of his character. Michael Jordan is a big role model in basketball, but he isn't just looked up to because he is one of the greatest players ever, it's usually about how he failed to make his high school team and then he practiced a lot and made the team the next year.
I don't think most people object to diversity per se, but forced diversity. Giving any character a particular gender, skin colour, sexual preference or whatever because it serves an agenda, not the story, really serves neither.
@@talltroll7092 Yeah at that point it's just tokenism
@@rsarin18 For all that I personally don't like Greys Anatomy that much, a lot of people do, and the double-blind casting they used threw up a pretty talented cast, that was genuinely diverse, because they were the best people for the job, not to tick boxes or meet quotas. If they'd ended up with a nearly uniform cast of whatevers, it still would have been a good show, because they *still would have picked the best people for the job*
Wesley crusher is no mary sue. No one says "shut up" to a mary sue without devastating consequences.