Then how do you explain Cixin Liu's Three Body Problem? a rare eastern Science Fiction where the enphasis relies more on the setting than on the characters.
That might explain why I like eastern works so much. Fore me the Characters are the most important thing in a work of fiction. I enjoy it a lot more when a Character I like does something cool than a Character I dont like ore one I feel only lukewarm about. Its more satisfying. How much I like a Character also seems to influences my perception of its superficial aspects at least somewhat. Fore example I love the Character design of Reg from "Made in Abyss" but I think a huge part of why I love it so much comes from how much I love the Character himself. I would say it also suits the Character quite well. The Anime Digimon Tamers starts of very slow. Introducing the Characters and developing there relationships without a big villain to fight in sight fore like 12 episodes. But I like it a lot because the characters are very endearing. If I like the Characters I am very forgiving on the story. It can be a super basic chosen one ore good vs evil story ore what ever. If I like the characters I can enjoy the story. Although I also enjoy simply enjoy the eastern style a lot. They are so creative, colourful and wild. You probably not finding something like a talking cat turning into a car in a western work. Then again I think my overall horizon on works of fiction is very small. Maybe I am wrong here.
@@carlosbeltran6167 Already said in the video, there are always exceptions. For example the manga monster is really plot driven while a lot of superhero comic is really character driven.
Yep, case in point the oldest written stories there are in Western literature: Greek mythology. There you'll have a ton of (physically) strong heroes who happen to be really smart as well. And the ideal human, demigod or creature has both muscle and brains - not only one or neither.
to be honest, I think Amerca has stronger pressence in media (such as movies) then other countrys in the West. I can name alot of American movies off the top of my head, but I know next to nothing when it comes to other western movies. This type of thing mayde why people consider American only things to be Western things.
The Wests oldest stories are internal struggles expressed through an external struggle. That's why our stories have central conflicts, because we're supposed to abstract out how to deal with situations from those stories. But modern Western Storytelling has forgotten that to a large extent.
@@chillinchum It's never going to be truly forgotten because the story of the hero is innate to our beings. But many Western 'storytellers' today intentionally avoid common tropes to be 'edgy' or 'woke'.
Than the eastern are using external struggle to express internal struggle? Thats just what a story is the thing that you said. Using external struggle to enhance expressed or more or less change in a good way or a bad way internally.
@@owo5869 It's more like this. "Western achieves heroic status, or enlightenment, by defeating the external enemy whereas the Eastern must achieve heroic status, or enlightenment, to defeat the external enemy."
Yeah, as in "Do you sweat underneath the pads, too?" (Pads = the little plastic thingies supposed to help make glasses sit more comfortably on the nose; dunno the English word, too lazy to DuckDuck).
@@p.s.shnabel3409 Sorry for my apparent perversion but.... mentioning pads reminds me of Sakuya XD Now I do indeed wonder... and even more so: I would love to see someone else from Scarlet Mansion ask her that question XD
@X Man Well, since it was given by Athena, I'd assume it was a foreign bow, like maybe a Korean Gakgung that recurved so far back that the relaxed state is a near-perfect "O" and needs proper technique to actually string, especially compared to a Longbow or a Recurve That or he's also freakishly swole, why many people can't even string his bow
Hey! No reason, just good-old-fashioned Drive to share Fun/Knowledge, driving me to say: If you like Criticism-Essays, try Madvocate, Jay Exci, and Hbomberguy, especially those about Shows. But enough of me 'speaking in General', so let me say something more video-specific now: 'Heroes dont Struggle' is of course a very broken Mindset of Today. The idea that the world's so hard that all Hope is lost. Hope aint lost, we just need to embrace grounded, good Coverage of Problems: Some More News, Real-Life-Lore, Illuminaughtiii, Holy Koolaid and those that constructively criticize Politics and Religion.
because half of what he is saying is BS. Plenty of western works have what he says only eastern works have (he means japanese works really) plus more, and he is basically saying "western bad japanese good" "western value superficial things, japaneses value intelligence :)"
Though, take out the Fire Nation army and there's no show. The whole point of the Avatar as an individual is that he/she deals with conflict. The characters' internal conflicts also stem from the show's external conflict, the war. I mean, you can have stories that focus on various people during wartime and not resolve the actual military conflict but then the series would be an anthology of sorts and the protagonist definitely wouldn't be Superman Jesus with glowing tattoos.
Then you get the movie, where the internal conflict is the actors wanting to kill themselves, and the external conflict is the audience wanting to kill themselves
So generally with Western storytelling, the central conflict comes first and the premise is born from that, while in Eastern storytelling, the idea for the premise comes first and conflict is created from that idea.
@Anupam Srivastava He didn't fail and he did assimilate and incorporate the local population, his only fail was the inability to convince his tired army to follow up deeper into Asia or at the very least be able to successfully keep the empire together.
No, this can only be applied to American/modern English storytelling, the rest of the west (mainly Spanish, French, Italian or even Russian storytelling is much much different from American storytelling and even more similar to eastern storytelling 😊
I wanted to and was going to, but it was made in the west and just inspired by Eastern influences. Unfortunately, I think it would be too distracting regardless at to how I used it.
@@LiteratureDevil So, does that mean you'll make a seprate video in the future on western media trying to replicate an eastern style of storytelling? As well as the good and the bad that came from it?
@@paxmorgana The Fate series. A lot of their stories focus on the main protagonists internal struggle sure, but it's a struggle that is put to the test by external forces; most notably the clashing of most if not all of the west's greatest heroes and legends.
@@LiteratureDevil It does have a central external conflict in the Fire Nation. Though I think some episodes would follow the Kishotenketsu format to some degree.
Thinking about it, the original Light is a Greek epic character. Empowered or at least competent in physical, mental, and social ways, but his hubris turned his undoing. There’s probably an essay in there on that and death note’s popularity in the west on its own.
@Conrad Kujur I was waiting for him to bring up Jojo in the video, *SPOILERS* since part 3 is very similar to Journey in the West in many ways, although it also has many similarities with Western stories as well, the conflict being saving Holly and defeating Dio. Then you also have part 4 which is a bit different in that that although there is a an overarching plot device with the arrows, that is really the only thing connecting everything. One can also see that the original conflict between Dio and Jonathan is the reason everything happens in Jojo, connecting to fate which is a prevalent philisophy in both the East and the West (fate can clearly be seen in the end of part 5, which I really liked). I have only read a couple of volumes of part 6, but I can clearly see that the theme of Dio and the Joestar bloodline continues.
I think though that death note relies on that central conflict far more than is given credit though. The story falls apart after L's death because he's already explored the death note and has gained dominance, it's just not fun to watch.
@@pkmntrainermann4476 L's death was necessary. They were evenly matched in wits, but in the end Light had the advantage of knowing all the tricks of the Death Note. It's a frustrating reality; no matter how smart L was, he could never overcome Light's inherit advantage. Sometimes it doesn't matter how good you are, someone else just has something you don't and there's nothing you can do about it. And Light's ego inflation after L's death is fascinating to watch. His complete disrespect towards L's successors makes his fall ever more satisfying to watch.
I see those differences in Batman and Superman. Superman: an all-powerful being that struggles to find his place in the world. Representing internal conflict. Batman: a simple human that wants to clean the world from evil. Representing external conflict. That's why so many writers fail to write Superman effectively. And so many people fall in love with Batman villains more than Batman himself. Of course this is not set in stone and I can also be completely wrong, I'm not even a writer.
Kevin Cruz This is a little bit of an oversimplification but yes I think that makes sense. Lets face it, Superman is hard to write unless you know how to do Arcs. As a writer, I honestly think writing Arcs are underused and undertaught and it shows with some of our popular literature that when you analyze it... Just doesnt make sense. Probably why if you search something on youtube with ‘Superman’ in it, it might just be either a critique of a major comic or a lamentation that character itself is flawed. Which he isnt, but even I have to admit I fell into this trap at times. Most great superman stories usually have an Arc tied to a Plot and it just so happens that most people in the west even extending beyond superman just cannot grasp this idea.
Justice League Unlimited, Cadmus Arc played this one straight. The whole issue was that Superman could have ended all conflict in totality. Problem was that he himself would become a tryrant, and that is something that even though he was pushed by lex luthor to do, and Cadmus expected him to do, his character wouldnt allow it. Justice League Unlimited was a perfect example of Superman done right, and the entire story was a masterpiece.
So basically, Western storytelling: - hero's journey - dialectical - coming of age Eastern storytelling: - how the changed hero lives after the journey - how his presence affects other lives - the meaning of this union (nakama)
Pretty much. I was thinking about the RPG video games I like, and how many of them probably got influence from LOTR or are ultimately a part of or compete on the same market of a Japanese company so it's worth sharing themes.
Wouldn't it be Bible (specifically New Testament)? You have Jesus who is main protagonist and he gathers his team of disciples along the way, of whom some initially were his enemies. There's also double plot twist at the end when after betrayal the team is back together as Jesus forgives Judas.
While at the same time adhering to the primacy of the central conflict. None of the characters would have done anything had it not been for the rising power of Sauron. At the same time it is also highly character driven where each member is fully fleshed out and important and the loss of one is a wrenching tragedy rather than simply an inconvenience. The ring is both an external threat, being the key to Sauron's power, and an internal threat in that it works on each characters fears and insecurities to try and manipulate them to its own ends.
You explained kishotenketsu in minutes while my Japanese professor spent 2 years and still couldn't manage to make us 'get' it XD/nam flashbacks to college days. Trust me, we Asians have trouble getting used to the Japanese style as well. Since Southeast Asian storytelling is also distinct from East Asian and might more closely resemble Western in some aspects. Our counterpart to the Odyssey and Journey to the West would have to be the Ramayana. As an Asian person who likes anime, but tries to write western fantasy, with no prior education in writing whatsoever, I would often find myself confused with all the western tropes and conventions (the three-act structure, the five-man band, the rule of three, etc.) that I had only recently stumbled onto, and find that my story did not fit well into any proven successful structure, becoming something of a meandering, awkward amalgam of Asian and East and West that I have experienced from stories I loved growing up. This video is very insightful and would help me to polish and steer my story with a clearer sense of direction and style. I'm relieved to know that it's okay if my story doesn't fit the western rules perfectly, and that that might have just been the unconscious influence of the other styles seeping out as I write, and vice versa.
don't worry about it too much, I'm not a writer but I don't see any problems in having a story that doesn't adhere to a specific structure be it Western or Eastern. For someone like me those things would be more guidelines than rules to get me started, but if someone were to craft a mostly original style I don't see why it would be rejected if it was just honest and well structured storytelling, you can tell any type of story you want and slowly flesh out the plot characters and world in it until it fits your vision and who knows maybe your vision might be the new trope of your media. In the end those tropes developed from stories that were revolutionary at their time making everyone want to follow the trend setter. It's fascinating to look at the styles of each part of the world but you should have that help your story instead of having your story bend to those styles without reason, just my 2 cents tho xD
I'm commenting here because as a fellow south east Asian person (but American born and who grew up consuming almost primarily American media, and later Japanese anime) I really appreciate and adore your insight
East Asia I could understand having more Western Influences; America has been very present there and have been highly involved with use economically so they spread their culture to America and vice versa.
One thing that separates Eastern and Western Storytelling is the concept of urgency with older stories. Western stories such as The Odyssey contains an urgency for the hero, where as in Journey To The West, there is no urgency. Urgency helps drive character action, either playing off of a ticking clock (externally) or a level of impatience (internally). Urgency also allows a more accessible investment from the audience. Stakes are established, a time frame set and a characters choices within those constraints will determine either success or failure. That being said, when writing/crafting a story urgency should not be used as a crutch to complete your story, but as a tool to bring something different. Like your video implies: Differences in the matter of broadening expression of story/narrative is a beautiful thing.
I think this is why I love eastern stories so much, I dislike urgency, my whole life is urgency I want to read about someone who if they don't do that thing this week no one starves. I've always liked a journey to the west style group of companions just travel around and deal with what may.
@@savagetv6460 Obviously some parts of any story have more urgency, but as the video points out it's not as overarching. Frieza isn't the eternal nemesis, in fact he even ends up fighting on their side in the new series, as if that was the plan all along. Dragon ball super is much closer to the classic journey of the west, it mostly relies on the fact that goku wants to fight strong people. That's the biggest difference in my opinion the urgency is a matter of choice, goku had to pick this fight as he wandered around looking for strong opponents, and well he kind of ******** up. Honestly dragon ball takes more western influences then you'd think for a story made around the idea of the monkey king from journey to the west. That's why it gets compared to superman so much, the core difference is that starting from nothing to become a god, rather then a god having to deal with being given nothing.
@@VioletDeathRei superman doesn't have urgency. he can have stories with no conflict. his origin stories focus more on his character dealing with the reality of his alien heritage
I adore storytelling that mixes the two styles, or when one of the styles takes inspiration from the other. An example would be JoJo's bizzare adventure. It's made with an eastern mind, but it's so influenced by Western storytelling that even the premise takes place mostly in the West. Also all musical references are top notch, but that's a personal preference.
So was Fist of The North Star influenced by western culture back in the 80s and the predecessor of animes like Jojo and even DBZ but it also influenced Japanese fighting games like Street Fighter or Mortal Kombat but nowadays eastern storytelling seems more isolated from the west being shows like Jojo a rare exception.
Masterslam999 Soul Eater is also a mix as it has enemy focus and external conflict along with the characters going through their own personal internal struggles
I prefer the five man band be titled like this: Leader: the person that doesn’t necessarily lead the group, but typically controls the direction of the story and group. Lancer: the character that is closest to the leader, either as a foil, rival, best friend, lieutenant, or chief supporter Big Guy: the character that acts as the “muscle” of the team; either as the toughest, strongest, or the one with the biggest gun, but not necessarily the largest in size The Heart: I feel this is more accurate as it describes the character that acts as the emotional or moral center of the team and the one that holds the team together or else keeps the group grounded on what they value and their goal. It can be a guy or girl and male examples exist prior to social justice fanatics, so Heart works best. The Wise Guy: this was the best choice as the character that fulfills this roll could be the smartest in the team, but it’s also just as likely that this role could be filled by the “funny guy” or a character that is not necessarily the smartest at science or strategy, but offers the mentorship or wisdom needed for guidance. Think the older gargoyle in Gargoyles for the wise type and Beast Boy for the funny type. In short, he could be smart, funny, wise, or a combination of each.
I agree the heart can be anyone, so calling them the chick, I think hurts both men and women. Men for the idea of not be emotional, and women for being nothing but emotional. By now, we're mature enough to know that anyone can willing or not willing show emotional support, regardless of background.
I will never understand why American adaptations of Japanese works must be given an "American" feel. What I like about Manga and Anime is that is from a culture different than my own.
@@DonVigaDeFierro And that mindset breeds isolationism and ignorance. I fucking hate it when shit is lost in translation because it erases unique cultural nuances I have taught myself and researched to better improve my experience.
And once again, like a broken record, Avatar The Last Airbender is a perfect blend of both. The central conflict is saving the world, while the internal conflict is whether Aang could rise up to be the Avatar.
As a counter-example, I would bring up Berserk; the central conflict being over Guts's maniacal desire to kill Griffith and avenge the rest of the Band of the Hawk, whilst his internal conflict is about whether or not he can allow himself to give up on the central conflict & simply protect, nurture, and grow the ones he cares for to the best of his ability.
Hm, not really, remove the conquest of Fire Nation, and Aang has all the time in the world to Master the Elements, no struggle to learn Fire Bending, since he's not afraid of it, no dangerous adventuring with the gang. Aang just calmly masters the elements in a controlled environment and that's it. No conflict - no story.
I watched it as a teen and I watched it as a grown man, I can say that I appreciated Avatar more as a grown up. It has a rich storyline that teaches philosophy in a way that a kid cannot simply understand.
Still watching, but want to make a plea before I forget: As an eruopean, I was basically raised on works such as Dylan Dog, Zagor, Martin Mystere, Modesty Blaise, Phantom, Iron Fist, Comanche, Bernard Prince and others. I didn't have access to north american comics. It would be quite interesting, for me, to hear you dissecting the likeness and differences, since our superheroes were quite different.
Yeah, oddly enough there is a noticeable difference between American and European works. I even remember Luc Besson's La Femme Nikita being remade into Point of No Return for the West. It would be an interesting topic to explore, I think.
@Sharkzilla3000 I think Dylan Dog was translated to english for few issues, I strongly recommend it. If you have a taste for consumerism satire with italian flavour - Alan Ford is a thing to behold!
I never understood the American cliche of the smart kid being awkward, honestly all the popular kids at my High School were the top students academically and all were in multiple sports too. Maybe that was just my High School...
It's just a shortcut to storytelling, which kind of makes sense with the video because the "jock" and "nerd" aren't the focus in these cases. Unfortunately, it's an easy mistake to think the flaws of these characters eventually makes them interesting as a main character. Development isn't made by 'erasing' weaknesses, it's by acknowledging them or overcoming them. Or getting stronger I guess, weakness isn't the answer to every development.
It's something that developed from a weird assumption that you can not be more than 2 of the following at once: Athletic, intelligent, socially successful. Athletic and Intelligent? You're isolated, usually explained as you intimidate people and your 'friendships' are shallow and conditional. Athletic and social? You are dumb as a rock or if of typical intelligence, arrogant. Intelligent and social? You're physically weak, and usually depicted as evil. The kind of backstabbing social climber no one should trust. I've never seen that to be true in real life. But then I've been outside of the mainstream school system for 95% of my time when I was in school. In my school experience, there were two tiers of social ladder. The 'normal' folks had some intricate hierarchy I never cared about because it wouldn't effect me. I could not participate, so it didn't matter. I was in the morass, the 'second ladder' below the bottom of that first one, where people only interacted within strict boundaries and only with each other. I'd liken it to the fact the nobility of ancient times didn't care what the peasantry did with/to each other, just so long as it didn't involve them. Then again, I was remarkably isolated growing up so I'm a very fringe example. From my observations of that 'normal' social ladder, it would be more accurately described as a triangle with 'no one important' in the center, Social at one point, Athletic at another and Academic at the third. Any individual could be placed as a dot inside and their standing was superior the further from center it was. Though only respected within that direction.
Split Haven tropes are tools and every single writer knows that, you simply cannot ignore tropes, they arent pervasive in any way they are a means to an end, write a story
@Split Haven and other that responded. My point was and is that the trope is largely not accurate most of time anymore. At the high schools I have been to the smartest people are popular and somewhat athletic. It feels outdated and I think a story of an American high school student being smart and not being a nerd would be fine haha
but where there not 2 movie ( i cain remember wice one i watched) that the popular kid where smart but acted dump for the sake of there title, i though that quit broke the stereotype movement once that i quit enjoyed or they told they chould not see anything withoud glasses and becomeing a nerd more and more and when they made friend with the nerd and becaome again beutifull they didnt want become popular anymore or they where but this time looked to there real friend
Lord of the rings is heavily influenced by nordic and old English stories, which are very different in style to more modern stories. In particular Beowulf.
@@binarekoharijanto4586 Not really, a lot of norse stories just start out of nowhere, have no real conflict and are generally about how the characters react to the situation. You could call 99% stories from north mythology "The daily lives of the norse gods". The only real western kind of story element it has is Ragnarök.
@@binarekoharijanto4586 No the most popular element of norse myth is Thor followed by odin in other words the characters, that's pretty much all most people know, next to no one actually knows about norse mythology. Saying Rangarok is popular is like saying physics is the most popular science because people know about the Schrödinger's cat: thought experiment. They have no clue what it means but, they know of it.
I noticed that a few years ago when I watched a Chinese WW2 movie called "Death and Glory at Changde". There are two frontline soldiers whose story largely drives the plot of the movie, as well as some other characters. At the same time, however the action sequences devoted considerable foreground screentime to showing extras battling it out, including close-ups of the faces of people you never get to know much about. One scene spent I think a whole minute or two showing a soldier struggle to get up and get back to his position before being shot in the back of the head having accomplished nothing. I liked the style: rather than the whole world revolving around a small group of individuals, it showed you that this is a battle involving tens of thousands of individuals, each with a story not dissimilar to the stories of the protagonists.
@@jakelee7083 Its not really a false generalization, tho it is a generalization, (which are always gonna have exceptions in which case arguing against them is stupid) Japan is a very collectivized culture, East Asian cultures are generally very collectivized, its why China only ever exists as a giant nation of so many people so often and why Japan has such a massive problem with state separation from society. (its also why they push so hard on intelligence and workplace success over individual success, individualistic goals are not praised in Japanese [or general East Asian] culture as a whole, and that's common in East Asia)
@@jakelee7083 "Sure, but that's only a plurality of the nation that actually thinks that way" Which first off proves my point, and secondly demonstrates exactly what I just said. "There are plenty of people, namely artists" Wrong and irrelevant because even most artists think this way, you will rarely ever get exceptions to a mass majority of ideology of a culture, let alone any that's worth considering as an argument against any generalization. This aside it also makes selling to the audiences in that nation impossible if they don't in some regard subscribe to this in all their works, (meaning you are basically guaranteed to fail by not having even part of the generalization, which also keeps the artists onto this path) its called appealing to the masses and no amount of art is successful without doing this. "The other part of the country generally doesnt care and is only going along with what a lot of people say because they can't help it." This is a pointless statement and actually kinda terrible as an argument. It doesn't dissuade any of my arguments, if anything it only further confirms them. Also they can help it, claims of otherwise are retarded excuses, unless you believe in people being defined entirely by nature and instinct, not by thought, sentience, or consciousness. (which ironically enough would mean you don't even believe in an individualistic methodology at all) Also "country generally" you invalidate yourself with this. "I'm sure they prefer something else, but are too scared to express themselves." If they did they wouldn't be as they are, and they wouldn't push these ideals down the line for generations. Its why they're so fine with authoritarian principles and government overreach and oversight, why their political, legislative, and judicial systems are so authority sided. (and lacking heavily in actual individualistic treatment even for such systems comparatively in the west) They don't do anything and they don't say anything, and they leave it as it is, they are by nature and design accepting what exists. If they didn't they wouldn't be so submissive. "That's reflected in a lot of Japanese literature that critiques the government and Japanese society." Just because there are people criticizing the government and society doesn't mean anything, that happens in every society that lets a form of speech liberty go. A society that wants to change won't criticize itself and complain about its problems, it will change voluntarily, that's how counter-cultures work. (and Japan has got a very weak counter-cultures, they tend to boil down mostly to literature that don't actually contribute much to solving the problems it lays out) Even with resistance, it happens by itself, this is the nature of a normally decentralized society, but the people of Japan (and general East Asia as a whole) don't actually much care about their social and cultural outlook. "The same goes for Korea and China." I can guarantee you it applies even less to them. Korea didn't have the same intervention from the US and China is entirely ruled by tyrants. The people don't care enough and have lived for millennia under those principles of operation, the 20th century still has not changed that, otherwise you would see them adopt Classical Liberalism as a society and try to overthrow their government. But they don't, and they never will because its not perceived as socially positive for East Asians. "How many Chinese people did you think knew about the impending doom that was Communism and decided go yeet out of there?" Which was the worst thing they could've have done. If even 1% of the Chinese population had (or even now) stood against the government, the government would fall apart immediately, if they wanted liberty and individualism, they would've established it, not fled to avoid it. Even then, most of them didn't flee and didn't stand up. "Everyone that didnt agree left." Not really how that works since most people that don't agree usually aren't that hardline in their disagreement and in most case, most folks don't have it bad enough to do so, or don't have the capabilities to consider it often if they do. Instead the only people who leave are the only ones that could've made a difference. This is actually a paradox of migration generally, most migrants that leave due to ideological or societal problems with their nation usually make said nation worse off in the long term because they're the only ones who were capable of doing anything themselves. "And I can safely say the same for a lot of East Asians." Not demonstrated so not sure where you're pulling this from. It doesn't even historically make any sense to claim this. "There are plenty who are individually oriented." Even if there are, which I'm fairly certain in East Asia there aren't, they don't contribute consideration as a population nor demographic and nobody records them in a statistical nor as a considerable political movement. This means they are an exception to the generalization that aren't even worth considering even beside the generalization. They won't accomplish anything and don't seek to. Also just gonna point out left leaning politics are not individualistic. "Its just that the Western perception of the East drives that stereotype and thus false generalization." You don't understand anything about sociology, psychology or statistics, and understand nothing of what a stereotype or generalization mean in themselves. Also nothing you said has any basis, you haven't provided anecdotal backing tbh (which I still would call wrong because anecdotes aren't worth consideration for population demographics) let alone dissuaded my statements. In this case its not reasonable as an assumption and it kinda just feels like you're making excuses to claim you're right instead of looking at the argument objectively. "While it's true insofar as the West is concerned" And there we go, once again my point has be proven. "that doesnt take into account the Eastern lens and what these people actually think." Not how you argue demographics, stereotypes, generalizations, statistics, politics, or anything else regarding behaviorism. It also doesn't work as a refutation of what I've already said and pretty much proves this whole chain is an excuse to argue semantics instead so you can't be proven entirely wrong. You shouldn't be trying to win the argument and now you can't even actually do that anyway since you straight up accepted my point. "It's why so many people in Japan are closet otakus or try to pursue a hobby on the side." While many of the younger folks are, (although I'm betting you that's more temporary then you think, also they don't do anything regarding society still) this doesn't confirm your side of the argument, it doesn't even refute mine slightly. Also most of them are partaking in distractions, not pursuing practical hobbys. (least ones that could lead to actually being individually successful) Also Japan is majorly a country of older folks more then most nations, (even for East Asia its pretty high) and they aren't otakus. "You can see that reflected in a lot of school anime where the characters are worried about school, but really dont care and are only doing it to continue pursuing their passion." Well given they put so much value into schooling instead of practical skills, that honestly only further demonstrates my point, even these "artist" types think school has some kind of answer at the end. Not to mention that they still put book knowledge on a pedestal above everything else in every case. No they really don't care about individual success, otherwise they'd pursue practical measures across the board. "That's not collectivist in the slightest and that doesnt only apply to the youngest generation. That's quite literally the West right now if you think about it." Ah, I see what you're trying to do, you're quite stupid tbh to make that argument and its even more idiotic to make such claims without any backing. Honestly that was a lot of excuse to claim you're not wrong but in reality nothing you said holds water, you tried to talk about exceptions and specific (near non-existent) cases but even they don't follow very individualistic measures, and I know that especially because the people haven't reacted and the counter-culture hasn't appeared. (people locking themselves in their rooms alone doing whatever pleasures them is not counter-culture, that's egoist self-indulgence, which in this manner is actually still rather collectivist) "Plenty of examples of Chinese people escaping to other countries exist." Anecdotes (your examples) aren't worth considering when it comes to generalizations, stereotypes, statistics, and demographics, don't give me this bullcrap, even if a million people leave China for this reason, it still doesn't represent 1% of the people's opinions. (making it a statistical irrelevance) And even then the media surrounding China criticizing it comes from the outside with nobody overthrowing the (Fascist, as that's what "Communist" China really is these days) government, if even 1% of the population stood up, the government would be immediately gone. (that works with all governments, if a government is actually stood up against by around 1% or more of the population, it literally collapses)
Living in both the West and the Far East has led me to notice that, very generally speaking, Westerners have a certain mastery of matter and "outer" space, whereas the Easterners have a certain mastery of spirit and "inner" space. Each have more of what the other lacks. It is quite noticeable. Both are relative masters of one and amateurs of the other. Really.
I have no way of assessing your claim. I'll build off of it regardless. I think that on a societal level, Western Europe and China have a dynamic similar to how you describe their dealing with external (western) vs internal (eastern) conflicts in storytelling. China historically has had so much arable land and so many people that during its dynastic era, they were content to keep to themselves. China was (and is) a world unto itself. Their relations with foreign countries (e.g., Korea, Japan) were typically as distant client states which exchanged gifts between ruling courts every few years. Contrast with Western Europe. Europe, since the end of the Byzantine empire, was largely isolated, backwater, and cut off from trade routes east by the Ottoman Turks. So, they've generally had an external focus: colonialism, mastery of sail, crossing oceans, extending power and influence and looking for "more" on the outside for a variety of reasons. I see that as a parallel to Western stories focusing on external conflict and Eastern ones focusing on internal. China has long been one social/political unit. Europe was, for most of its history, a Tower of Babel-esque subcontinent with no central power structure and much incentive to expand outward.
@@chasechiamulera7704 you say China was isolated, insular, and content, but that Europe, which was the same, was a backwater. Why? China’s authoritarian monoculture discouraged innovation and individuality. The many rival states of Europe did the opposite. Columbus for instance paraded his expedition around Europe before the Spanish crown agreed to fund it.
@@reginaldforthright805 I say that Europe was a backwater, specifically during the Medieval period up to the Industrial period, because I think it was less connected to the outside world through trade, because it was smaller population-wise, and because I think in many ways it didn't have the same cultural impact outside its own borders at that point as many people might think. That stuff doesn't even begin until the 1700s onward. By contrast, China has had a profound impact on the linguistic and material culture of East Asia for a longer time, in my estimation. In general, whenever you read about any of the nations of East Asia, the scale of human population dwarfs contemporary Western Europe. As an example, at the end of the 1590s, Toyotomi Hideyoshi's army of a reunified Japan numbered 250,000 men, while the contemporary "grand" Spanish armada was closer to 30,000. [www.samuelhawley.com/imjinarticle1a.html ] Similarly, in 1350, all of Europe -- including Eastern Europe -- was estimated to have had 70 million; "The West" at that point was closer to 50 million. By contrast, the same year, China was estimated to have had 120 million people living there. [ en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medieval_demography ] [ en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Population_history_of_China ] Europe doesn't start really having a huge impact on the rest of the world until the different states you alluded to engineered sail ships and improved navigation techniques. A lot of that was because they were locked out of Silk Road trade routes by the Ottoman Turks. (Of course, there were exceptions; for instance, the Venetians were known to have trade colonies as far east as Crimea, and even in the early middle ages, we've found Indian iron and some Chinese trade goods as far west as England. But I think the sum total material exchange between Europe and the rest of the Old World at that point was probably pretty light.) I know the word "backwater" is a bit inflammatory, and I am using it somewhat tongue-in-cheek, but also to emphasize that European military, cultural, and economic domination is a VERY recent phenomenon, and one which developed surprisingly quickly after close to a millennium of relative dormancy. I know Chinese has profoundly impacted the regions surrounding it, and from a much earlier date. Modern written Japanese was started with Kanji, which were really just borrowed Mandarin characters that they started using in the 4th century AD. By contrast, I really don't think Western European languages had a huge impact outside their own region until the start of overseas colonialism, which really starts in the last decade of the 15th century AD. I know that written Vietnamese is similarly impacted, where anywhere from 30-70% of their vocabulary in written language is comprised of Chinese loan words. I also know that Korean politics and culture has been profoundly impacted by China as far back as the 900s; the Goryeo kingdom wrote its official histories in Chinese, and the later Joseon dynasty adopted Neo-Confucianism as a state-sanctioned ideology. The last thing I want to mention regarding "Europe as backwater" is the architecture and geographical element. Western Europe is largely internally divided via rivers and mountains. This makes individual settlements more isolated than compared to a place like the North China Plain, which is more easily traversed by horseback for most of its history. Combine that with a complete power vacuum after the collapse of the Western Roman Empire, and the main unit of political statehood and power in Europe is the local nobility and their castle. European castles, especially those in the early Middle Ages, are small and primitive. Look up "Motte and Bailey" on wikipedia. It describes a raised court yard surrounded by a wooden fence, with a small artificial hill with perhaps a wooden guard tower for defense. It was the standard form of European "fortification" from the 10th to the late 13th century; look to Topcliffe Castle in the UK for a typical example. By contrast, Chinese fortifications were far more robust, and adopted a far grander scale. As late as WW2, the Japanese took a full week to put a hole in Nanjing's city walls using modern high-explosive artillery. For further reading, I suggest: [ en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_city_wall#Effectiveness_against_artillery ]. A lot of the difference in terms of fortifications in China versus Western Europe is explained by "Europe as backwater": Europe had less people to build things, geography that made maintaining a centralized locus of political power much harder, and which therefore produced smaller forts for smaller states with fewer people. That is why I can justify calling Western Europe a backwater for at LEAST the period from 476 AD to perhaps the 1500s at the earliest (more like the 1800s if we want to start counting when Europe finally has a population boom which makes it a world player), but I cannot say the same for China. And also, I think characterizing pre-Industrial Europe as a "backwater" is a useful frame to understand WHY its competing states and individual inhabitants felt more of a compulsion to sail across oceans and find resources to exploit from different continents.
@@chasechiamulera7704 I’m skeptical. I think at worst medieval Europe was at the same level as the east. The cathedrals were far more advanced than any architecture in the world at the time. European swords and armor were also superior. As were their castles and siege technology - trebuchets, catapults etc. They defeated the saracens pretty easily and only lost the kingdom because of a series of blunders and inability to work together.
Watching the part where you talked about “Japanese nerds” and looking back at my high school days make me realize how almost every single popular kids in my high school fit the top student category perfectly Edit: I’m not Japanese but I’m at least Asian so I hope that count
Saying that when the neweest trend in eastern storytelling are isekai and otome stories. Which are as about escapist as a story can possibly get and as in denial of reality as you possibly can be,
@@ballzdeep916 I don't think he's talking about escapism here, just how over here politics and real life issues tend to infect fantasy. Not that they can never enter stories, but when people get annoyed over what a fictional character is wearing, it gets really annoying.
Oh no way Lol Americans will see a fantasy world "WHY ISN"T IT REAL ? WHY IS IT FANTASY " Nah we cannot separate reality from fantasy we don't even understand what it means to make a fantasy world everything we make is some weird kinda pseudo documentary passing itself off reality . There are people trying to pass laws to ban cartoon due to fear of corrupting people sense of reality . Everything about Anime is clearly setup to separate reality from fantasy the fact they have colored hair color eyes the way it drawn . Japan has clear sharp line between there entertainment and the gray dull everyday reality . Americans try to mix to the 2 even are politics is just a form reality tv the fact we invented the idea reality tv.
I'm not talking about an inability to create fantasy stories. I'm talking about the insistence that these fantasy stories impact reality as more than just a form of entertainment.
I guess the Three Musketeers would count as Nakama. However take away the threat of the Cardinal and you just got three guys teaching the new kid the ropes.
Hardly. There was a lot happening in the background of the story in terms of locations/events/people, plenty of side character interactions and the story of the Musketeers were continued in later works. A lot of the classic writers had a large body of work, of which only a few were ever televised or made movies from. Lots of those "obscure" works can be had for free from Amazon or Project Gutenberg.
This video has been a lifesaver for me, I've been agonizing over my book outline for weeks now because I couldn't come up with a satisfactory overarching conflict, the idea never crossed my mind that maybe it isn't wholly necessary that said your explanations show more than a dash of orientalism
I was unfamiliar there was a difference, but now you have me fascinated. Are there any famous Eastern European works you could list as an example? This sounds fun to ponder
@@ObsessedwithZelda2 I wish I had something in mind but I don't. I just thought about the generally darker endings of Eastern European stories, especially fairy tales.
@@ObsessedwithZelda2 The best Eastern Europe stories in my perspective come from Russia (Yes I know it's mostly in Asia but most people still consider it an eastern european country). Dostoyeski and Tolstoy are in my opinion the best authors I ever had the change to read (and I've read a lot of old and new books that are considered masterpieces). There is something about their books, in the level of complexity and deep character study that while it could be similar to other works, still has something that makes it special. Probably the level of objectivity, and that even the "bad characters" at no point are portrayed by the author as bad, but just humans. Also they are very objective writers that don't push their opinions down your throught. While Dostoyevski was a christian monk, he doesn't shy away from writing atheist characters that are atheists, and he portrays them as smart and kind hearted people. And when those characters talk about how God isn't real, Dostoyeski doesn't make them look stupid or ever tries to prove them wrong, he lets you decide (the reader) what to belive in, even thou he is a devout christian. That kind of writing today is almost impossible to find, where even the smallest opinion is forced unto you, and any other perspective is eighter bad or flawed. To sum it up, those 2 are authors with class, that analyse the human psyche and society in most of their books.
@@Anubis-xk4ht I think his character development doesn't develop anymore because he's an excellent example of a Static Character, but think about it. Without Goku, Dragon ball just wouldn't be dragon ball anymore. It's just that Goku is mostly static because he already had his development in the first dragon ball series, the character development is mostly directed towards all the characters around Goku and how he affects them and how they react to him. It's mostly the characters other than Goku that gets character development which that is what I like about Dragon ball a lot. Goku changes the lives of everyone around him.
@@zusfrankenstein8561 the Jedi, the crews of the various star ships of the the UFP’s Starfleet (mainly those aboard the multiple famous vessels named “enterprise”), a lot of classical western heroes like Alexander or Ceaser.
You can apply a lot of these to the Kaiju genre. Example: Godzilla was originally enemies with Anguirus, Mothra, and Rodan, but now they are more often considered his nakama.
I'd argue that MHA falls under the discussed kishotenketsu, as the central story revolves around two main themes, "how does a culture adapt to the loss of a central figure" and "how does the acquisition of a super power influence an already heroic yet powerless individual". Yes there is conflict, but much of the story is emphasizing the character's ideals rather than how many guys they can beat up.
@@Zimzilla99 just like fantasy and horror have an external conflict that drives the story, kaiju is a genre within Eastern storytelling. Godzilla comes out of the ocean, how does the populace of Tokyo react (or whomever is the main character (s) in the original Japanese movie). Genre is only a collection of common tropes. The storyteller is making a promise to the consumer that we will get these things in this genre. Example: Fantasy has magic, mythical races and or creatures, a grand quest. But the story structure is the same. I'm sure kaiju stories are the same as any other Eastern story, following the same structure. It just has a much more noticable external force in the form of the monster. I'm sure creative writing classes in Japan teach their students to write "literature" the way Western Creative Writing classes do. Why, literature? Because it gets us to understand basic plot structure.
i would argue that the narrator is wrong to say that fake-light's intelligence puts him at the bottom of the social ladder. it's the absence of any other virtues that does this to him. the intelligence is not the problem, the other shortcomings are (insecurity, cowardice, lack of social graces etc). but assuming that intelligence=no other strengths is very american, indeed.
Eh, I'd argue that there has always been space for smart and capable protagonists in the American pantheon, despite the existence of the helpless scientist trope. This is particularly evident over the past two decades, during which our media has been entirely dominated by Marvel movies and the new era of high budget TV (West Wing, Sopranos, The Wire, Breaking Bad, GOT, Ozark, etc), all of which tend to center characters who are both tough and highly intelligent. Early in this period we also saw gargantuan franchises such as The Matrix and LOTR, as well as endless procedural dramas and international intelligence thrillers, all of which lionized the thinking man. So at best, the characterization is over two decades old. Even still, it's not as if all of that came out of nowhere. Mainstream Americans had long celebrated the cool, calculating lone-wolf problem solvers from across the pond, whether a Sherlock Holmes or a James Bond. The former is the obvious archetype for the aformentioned procedurals, and US studios spent considerable time and effort trying to replicate the latter (Six Million Dollar Man, Macgyver, Night Rider, Mission Impossible.. although I don't think they really nailed it until Jason Bourne). Beyond all that, Star Wars (Luke, Yoda, Leia, Obi, Vader) was the king of the box office in both the 70s and 80s. So I'm not saying that there's no truth to it, but as with most things, there's more nuance than the stereotype would suggest.
I remember going to a panel at an anime convention and asking why one of the older side characters wouldn't have been considered one of the more powerful out of the main playable characters (in theory). It's been a few years, so I may have lost some words here and there, but it stuck with me. I'm paraphrasing what the host gave as a two-fold answer: 1) In Japan, most anime takes place in the high school setting because that's thought to be the "time of your life" where you can make mistakes and have adventures before you enter the workforce. 2) Being on the "losing" side in WW2 instilled the notion of "we need to put more faith in our children rather than trying to hold down the country to the very last surviving child". This contrasts the "Clint Eastwood war hero" ideal in the US. Mind you, I'm positively certain I've gotten some things wrong, but that was what came to mind when you mentioned the cultural approaches that Western vs Eastern storytelling takes. Now I have to mentally chew on story structures from other countries as well. Not that it isn't a good thing. I can always use some brain food to distract from the day.
No no! Wait! I want to ask more about that. I wasn’t exactly sure what Dinker was implying. I’m actuakky extremely curious about these points. I didn’t mean to imply harm Could you please explain more about that?
America was meant to help reconstruct japan and its country after the devastation it had caused.it was more of an apology sort of thing and it’s the reason why both nations are on good terms with each other to this day. It’s still pretty crazy how it would’ve had an impact in a nations mentality. Do you think this is a good thing for a nation to want possibly forced peace like this or do you think the nation should try and grow from itself and learn how to move on? Do you think these affects should be reversed altogether? Is it a good or a bad thing for the Japanese like media to reflect these attitudes here and now?
Want them around? You do realize that Japan leads with most USA stationed troops at 55,000. That’s pretty ridicolous to have support for more troops than even the most loyal of allies. I do agree that America has interfered in other nations in the past but it is by no means a bad country. During WW2 japan was with Hitler and Mousillini, 2 figures who were obsessed with global conquest and Japan wanted some of that pie Actually Japan bombing of Pearl Harbor was THE REASON AMERICA ENTERED THE WAR IN THE FIRST PLACE. Although it wasn’t related to the atomic bombing, that was an unethical way to force the Japanese to surrender and prevent prolonging war and death. one bomb was going to be dropped but the emperor didn’t believe that a whole city could be bombed so wellll more genocide, completely unethical but that’s how history went. I’m only asking that because I have a gripe maybe more so with anime manga with who trope-y it is and how a lot of the media is extremely similar to each other and is relying on twists to make itself different from each other. Like the whole isekai genre thing (which isn’t a genre it’s a fantasy trope that became heavily cliche) and yeah I was doing research into that
Note Re: wisdom and physical capability in western stories. We do typically have a wise mentor character - typically the coach in sports movies - but this character doesn't necessarily impart wisdom to the same degree that a character is enlightened in a Japanese martial arts film. The role of the coach is to tease out the potential of the athlete, enhancing their physical skills, but rarely makes a difference in the athlete's life beyond the changes that come along with victory. Meanwhile, in Japanese films, enhancing one's physical skill through training is usually also accompanied by an improvement of one's spiritual condition
Yes. To use your sport coach analogy, the coach only trains the athlete because he benefits from victory in reputation or financially; the mentor doesn't need to teach the student and he doesn't need to have any stakes beyond training the student. The western story will favour teaching the main character physical strength and application of power; while the eastern story will favour mental fortitude and proper application of technique. The one teaches power to overcome physical obstacles, the other teaches inner courage and grace to bear them.
Sports movies represent a small niche which only appeals to a certain audience. (I've never willingly watched one in my entire life.) LD was talking about in broad terms, generalizing Western vs. Eastern storytelling. Can you give more than one example outside of sports movies?
They're called a Paragon in western literature. A character that has already reached their peak, in whichever field, and helps to guide and mentor the protagonist. Ie Gandalf, Obi-Wan, Dumbledore, etc
AAAAAND... there is Gandalf. And in a lot of folklore ( at least here in the Balkans ) the hero has strenght... but misses wisdom.. and that is what is given to him, and sometimes that is done directly by some old hag. This is an over-simplification... but I think it does make a solid point. The bridge lies in the fact that the whole world was and is on a spiritual journey of sorts, even if some are not aware. We all try to find meaning, and that meaning is usually achieved through wisdom ( even though that is not completely true... as wisdom offers perspective, not necessarily answers )
Now I see why long-running series are so different between the West and the East, and especially why the Eastern equivalent of comics don’t have to rely on reboots. It’s also interesting to think of game design, as the lead level designers of the modern Mario games have explicitly stated to use kishotenketsu for each level. It seems like it’s a fantastic technique for creating a powerful episodic format.
A Japanese adaptation of Star Wars that successfully retold the same plot would likely keep the Death Star under wraps, with the reveal being *ten* and the battle of the death star being *ketsu.*
Here's an interesting point for debate- perhaps it's not only the philosophical differences that contribute into the difference in western and eastern storytelling. Historical differences also shape the way we told stories. I think in the west the external struggle that you mentioned could also have stemmed from the amount of times A country has been invaded. For instance my country the UK, we've been invaded many, many times, the Saxons, the Normans, the Romans, the Vikings, etc (not specifically in that order). And it's the same across most of Europe too. I think that external struggle was ever present in the West, however in the East, countries like Japan, they were in isolation for a very long time, so the external threat was never there, so they turned the focus on to an internal struggle for enlightenment. Thoughts?
Thats not entirely true... Since there was no "Japan" or "China" back centuries but instead a bunch of states fighting for control (ZhanGuo and Sengoku periods). This is highly evident in China's history where it was first united under 1 state in 200 BC and since then has broken up and reformed under different names. Many of chinese literature were written about these warring periods such as "The Three Kingdoms" or "FengShenYanYi". So the history might not be as important as you believe.
@@timlee5711 I think that your point actually strengthens their argument. Rather than the commonality of invasions that took place in Europe, the extended periods of internal conflict (civil war, essentially) and the struggles for unification are exactly why eastern storytelling focuses so much more on internal struggles. I'm not as familiar with Chinese history but in Japan, every faction during the Sengoku Period knew they were all Japanese and that the end goal was to unify the country under a single banner (with the blessing of the emperor, who was remarkably absent throughout all of this). "Through unity and the quelling of internal conflicts will the country achieve harmony" and all that jazz. As such, the idea of unifying the country became internalized into dealing with the internal struggles inside oneself.
Just as it's wrong to think Eastern stories have no external conflicts. Both stories have both. But they each start (and therefore end up) at a different place. Stories universally are about change. But Western starts at an external conflict to prompt internal change to then deliver an external solution. Eastern starts at an internal conflict to prompt external change to arrive to an internal solution. They're both really the same thing. Just a different perspective and way of looking at it, which is interesting.
You just helped me realize something incredible. There's a story I'm working on where I wouldn't really say there's a central conflict, more so a central problem (except I didn't know it was a problem until you helped me see it was). I've been having so much trouble charting it (trying to see where the plot goes) because I didn't really have that one central conflict; and thanks to your video, I realized what was going on. I had unwittingly plotted out a Kishotenketsu story but I was trying to apply Western storytelling philosophy to it. It's hilarious because I got the idea for the story from an anime and, somehow, I stumbled on the structure without knowing it, only to find myself stuck. Another thing is that the struggle of my character is almost exclusively internal. I suppose that was another huge roadblock for me. How do I move along with an internal conflict if the structure I'm using favors external conflict? But now? I think you've led me onto something incredible. A synthesis if you will. Like you say, these structures overlap; and I'm now seeing the potential for something greater. You've unlocked the doors to a world of possibilities I didn't even know existed. Thanks, man.
This is my experience as well, I’m so glad I learned about this structure and have watched a few vids on it. I’m curious how your story has been doing with it.
I think you hit on something very important with mentioning the driving theologies/religions of the East and West in that Eastern religion tends to deal with aligning the individual to a cosmic harmony (often expressed as collectivism/"My friends are my power") while Western paganism focused on the champion (individual who asserts/tests his will against nature/society, e.g: Beowulf vs. Grendel), something that still bled into western literature even with the rise of Judeo-Christian influence. You point to Catholicism as pushing a "protagonist (us) vs. antagonist (Satan)" conflict, but I feel that misses the more simple, yet more grand, narrative: Good vs. Evil. It isn't about the protagonist aligning with the universe, it is the forces of good, often embodied in the protagonist, overcoming the forces of evil, embodied in the antagonist. If the individual sallies forth in virtue, then he may correct the Goliath. And yet, if we go back to Biblical literature, we get stories like Cain and Abel, Job, and the Exodus. These are stories about the deficiency of humanity in contrast to divinity and the need for careful self discipline and introspection. These stories very often deal with internal conflicts and a need for spiritual discipline vs. assertion of will. The modern fruit of this literary spirit can be found in works like Crime and Punishment or Till We Have Faces. All that to say, I think (but am not certain) your phrasing of the Western external conflict focus has stronger roots in vestigial pagan warrior cultures than Judeo-Christian beliefs.
I beg to differ. There have been many "pagan" or native structures of belief and with every era those beliefs changed as well from Elemental gods to the now more known Asa and such and then again they changed with the era of conflict with christianity (introducing more elements of hope or contrasting elements to the christian faiths as well as becoming more contrarian in their own mythology, introducing characters like Baldr etc). For the sake of argument, behind every "quest" in the saga and Edda etc there is usually also the trickster or the longterm play of the gods and the forces of time (which is often shown as the absolut force above all, the cycle, swastika, life, End etc) and in some even just humor, geneology or simply tales of longterm generationspanning consequences and cycles of the year. The pagan "blade" of sunlight (=spring) tale changed with time into the Story of Siegfried of Xant, which is more a tale about fate and consequence of actions which is NOT in the grasp of the hero. TL;DR : It is (a bit more) complicated then boiling it down to a sentence, since it all moves with time.
@@t.k.5972 First, allow me to apologize if I misunderstand your contention. You've obviously put some time and thought into this reply, but I'm afraid I'm a little fuzzy on what the "it" of your TL;DR is. That said, if your point is that not all "pagan"/native cultures are the same or well codified/preserved, then yes: it was rather lazy and irresponsible of me to use such blanket terms. I should have specified that this style of external conflict reminds me more of Greco-Roman mythology and literature (although there are notable exceptions, of course, such as Sophocles *Antigone*) and Scandinavian/Norse mythology meant to preserve or encourage the warrior spirit. Not to say the East didn't produce their own fair share of conquerors, but the western "my good vs. their evil" just reminds me more of Greek epics than Biblical literature. However, as I haven't conducted any official research on the matter, your guess is probably as good as, if not better than, mine. Thanks for being willing to dialogue and deepen the conversation, though! I appreciate the expanded examples you brought to the table. Have a good day!
25:50 The story does not fall apart! If The Empire was "just" and not the central conflict, then the central conflict would have to stem from The Evil Rebels enacting a plan to disrupt The Just Empire (or an entity of it) in such a way that it would further their evil goals. They would be the antagonists in films such as: -Die Hard -True Lies -Speed -Team America -Air Force One -etc. Also, due to the vast difference in power between The Evil Rebels and The Just Empire, the former would have to steal or build a super weapon that could pose a significant enough threat to the latter if they even hope to succeed. Luke as our main character would still be dragged into the conflict by The Rebels, and he would still become the Hero. However, he would fight for The Just Empire and maintain the status quo by defeating The Evil Rebels and their super weapon. Now lets say The Evil Rebels remain the protagonists and The Just Empire the antagonists. The Rebels would be like the villainous protagonists of: -Dog Day Afternoon -Scarface -Amadeus -American Psycho -Fight Club -Bonnie and Clyde -Wolf of Wall Street -There Will Be Blood -The Usual Suspects -etc. If Luke remains The Hero of The Just Empire in this scenario, he becomes an antagonist and can no longer be the main character. However if he joins The Evil Rebels like in the original, he remains a protagonist and the main character. In this scenario, he would have to use the super weapon against The Just Empire as he would be a villain. *T L D R* Western Media is infatuated with a Just Society being challenged by evil groups and people, good citizens getting caught in the crossfire, the lone hero who embodies the just society, and who rises up to stop said evil and maintain the Just Society. Also, The Star Wars Sequels are complete garbage.
I live in the US, and I was tought that every story fallows the same structure. That every story has an exposition, an inciting incident, a rising action, a climax, a falling action, and a resolution. That every story fallows the structure of the Freytag Pyramid. Sometime during highschool, I started writeing a book. However, I was finding that my books structure was not exsactly the same as the Freytag Pyramid. it was looking more like this ___________________________/\_ /\ / \ then like this __/ \__ I was starting to feel discourge, like I was writeing it the wrong way. But after watching this video I relized that my writeing style more resembles Slice-of-lifes, then the traditonal western writeing stlye. And that it is ok. It is ok to write in a stlye that is differnt then the one you were tought in school. That it is ok to write in an eastern stlye, when you live in the west, or vice-versa. Write in any stlye you wish to. Becase all stlyes are valid and none of them are "the wrong way to write".
I had this problem as well. I grew up learning about the writing structure and for years I didn't question it. But then I got into anime and eventually other world media (Bollywood, Cdramas, Kdramas..etc). All the while I was trying to create my own world and characters. But then I spent years wondering why my stories didn't fit the Western structure I was taught. I would try to write via the structure and I could never make my stories go. (Or at least rarely) It was frustrating. I felt I had so many ideas but I couldn't seem to write them. And the ones I did were very few. But I couldn't figure out the problem. But then I learned about the Japanese writing structure just a few years ago and it opened my eyes to A. There was another writing structure in the world!! and 2. More importantly, 99% of my writings that I managed to get out of myself over the years(via Blood, Sweat and Tears, btw...) just happened to follow the Eastern style. And I didn't even know that style existed at the time!! Now, since finding that you can write a story without conflict being the central theme, I have a sense of relief. Like less pressure for me because clearly trying to write the Western structure, is hard (and might could say next to impossible for me). Apparently I care more about the characters and internal conflict than the plot and external conflict. And frankly after watching years of stuff getting blown up or cars flipping over in movies for no good reason, I'm going to need something more interesting than that to capture my attention.....
Perhaps there isn't necessarily a "wrong way to write", but there absolutely IS a wrong way to spell. You should really learn to actually spell properly if you aspire to being a writer, because between your myriad mistakes, I could scarcely focus on what you were trying to say...
I had similar confusion, my stories have coherent plots but they didn't neccessarily follow the structure people said stories have to. And people still LIKED my stories. I often got comments that it did feel different, but they really enjoyed it. and that i had interesting casts of characters AND their interactions with each other. some of my stories don't have a clear conflict. Some do, but there's underlying situations going on anyway that would've just taken the story somewhere else. I can remove A "central conflict" and still have a secondary major issue send characters on a similar path - or completely different. i often felt bad for not having a villain, or having extensive casts or multi-POV. i think i combined a bunch of different styles. I grew up on western tv alongside east european influences, and then the past ten years have been heavily inundated with japanese film/anime/literature... so now it all makes sense lol who on earth decided that there can only be one valid way anyway? ... the more i think about it, the creepier/weirder that gets. it's creative writing. *aggressively circles "creative"*
I would challenge your position on intelligence in Western storytelling. I would argue that the idea of balance in soul and body is present in both cultures. In western culture, it comes from balance of the humors from the Greeks, later interpreted into Christianity, and in eastern culture, it comes from Buddhism. It's valued highly in both cultures, you don't see anyone being praised for being stupid in either stories and strength in both kinds of stories usually not enough. I would also suggest that intelligence is seen as dangerous without self-doubt in western canon and also dangerous without spiritual enlightenment in eastern. I believe religions defined the way people understood the world in ancient times and thus they were mayor influences on culture and storytelling. And religion is really a description of your surroundings, thus different geographical starts shaped different kinds of storytelling.
Yeah, that’s who thought. Most American media seems to be about over coming oneself. As a Catholic, we believe you cannot do do anything without God, but with him we can do anything
Thank you for this. Finally someone notices the flaws. Primarily I think the author's knowledge is very superficial and he only introduces works that are convenient to his theory. However... Take "nakama", for instance. One of the most renowned western classics is The Lord of the Rings. And guess what? The nakama are there. You have a party of nine companions who are highly loyal to each other and to their quest. Also their main goal is to throw a damn ring into a volcano. The main character is in conflict with no one at all - he even prevents several conflicts. And on top of it all, the story is very slow-paced and can savor the moment. Yet, it is in no way similar to the eastern way of writing. Well well well... Take Jeffrey Deaver's books - they are of course criminal stories, but even then, he had a choice. He could introduce a macho bomberman who would go and shoot out everything he could. But he introduced... a disabled guy who can't do anything by himself, yet he is smart, resourceful... and freaking cool! And a woman who is by no means athletic and one of her best moves is to switch glasses during interrogation. Deaver's books are long, some of them read very slow, and yes, there is conflict, but that is again given by the genre. On the contrary, take Japanese literature. Historically Ihara Saikaku, and now people like the Murakami brothers or any light novel author - they write books that are short, some of them very fast-paced, and especially in case of Murakami Haruki you have protagonists that are often alone, castaways who don't have the word nakama in their dictionary. Same with Osamu Dazai. Problem is... the speaker here compares the wrong things. And let's face it - American mainstream movies are made for masses that don't have any demands. To compare them to the profound Japanese art or even to the Odyssey... that is very bold. I would say there is a difference between eastern and western writing, but the speaker is not even close to understanding it.
@@MirwenAnareth It is also hard to compare current/modern/pomo storytelling because it is intertwined. For example, existentialism had taken a lot of inspiration from Buddism, because they tackle similar problems of existence. And similarly, anime had a lot of inspiration taken from western animation. If you want to ask "Western vs Eastern Storytelling - What's the Difference?" question you need to at least address the history of literature, the history of technology, the political history or the history of language. History of literature so you would be able to compare the problems they tried to solve at the time. Political history so you would understand who tried to please who what resources were available. History of technology so you would understand how or who could tell stories to what audience and what stories could be told that way. And then language so you would understand the double meanings and symbolism and what rhyming schemes were appropriate. The human experience is such that it leads to similar stories because we have similar problems and the differences would be concerned with different resources we had, different technology, language, philosophy or political situation. When speaking about Odyssey, for example, it's not appropriate to compare it to other stories without addressing that it's a record, a collection of oral traditional stories that were created hundreds of years before Homer was even born. Those stories originate from all over the place from Nothern Africa to the Middle East. It's a feature of old stories so I would guess it's similar in eastern sagas. And because most of our original stories were written not in isolation from the east it's hard to draw conclusions without going deeper into the ancient sagas and analyzing their context. It's not enough to say one is pro intellect and the other pro strength. Or one is plot-driven stories and the other character-driven stories. One focuses on inner conflict the other outer. There are enough counterexamples to make that explanation unconvincing. You need to go deeper look at religion, look at language, look at technology, look at the political situation and look at philosophy. This video could be great if LD would have concentrated on how dramatic structure differs from the eastern dramatic structure. Because they are very similar and I would suggest that it kinda shows how similar problems have similar solutions and that makes sense.
A thing of interest to me is that the hero of the Odysseus doesn't actually get by on his strength very often whereas Sun Wukong really the man who we should see as the protagonist of the Journey to the West relies so heavily on it, sure he sometimes uses his intelligence but as above said that's generally to show that he isn't just strong. Meanwhile Odysseus main actions are intelligence based then you have him being stronger then the average man at the ending or in other parts throughout the series to show that yes he is a genius but he isn't just a genius he's also extremely capable and able to protect his family. So Greek has Hercules and Achilles who are akin to Sun Wukong and Oedipus and Odysseus who are more like Light Yagami. Bah there was something else I wanted to add to this but well can't remember now.
That's why he says there's an overlap. I think he already presented one good question that, hypothetically, if a Western and an Eastern storyteller would try to answer: "How will your character/s tackle the conflict/s of the story you have in mind?"
Hmm this topic never crossed my mind. Thanks literature devil for bringing this up! I often found myself watching more and more anime and I always tell people these anime have amazing stories but I never knew why. The change in external and internal conflicts make fascinating stories. I hope more people will give shows like goblin slayer and one punch man a chance
I still do. If I call a group of heroes "nakamas" it sounds strange. I speak portuguese (brazilian) and "Nakama" sounds like "Na cama" which means "in bed" for us.
that's prob coz east europe isn't western :P ... white, but not western. i'm interested in trying to find a comparison of eastern europe to both western and east-asian narratives...
Russia culturally and historically speaking is far more associated with the west then the east however. The whole east/west writing styles is more of a generalization.
I could go on: Geralt, Ozimandias, Ironman, roschach, lex luthor And So on.... But I think they Are the second And third type 2)detective,inquisitor 3)Leader, general
Personally, I believe that all truly masterful stories have external and internal conflicts. Take Inception. The external conflict is "Let's get inside this guy's head and convince him to change the course of a company," while the internal conflict is Cobb getting over his wife. The internal conflict wouldn't be possible without the external conflict, but the external conflict would be dull without the internal conflict. The same goes for Avatar: The Last Airbender (external = everything changing when the Fire Nation attacked, internal = "Aang has a lot to learn before he's ready to save anyone."), the Matrix (external = breaking free and fighting the Matrix, internal = spiritual awakening allegory), and Gone With the Wind (external = romance between Rhett and Scarlett, internal = "As God is my witness, I'll never go hungry again!"), to name a few. All of these are produced and marketed to Western audiences, but have a universal appeal. And universal appeal is what makes a true classic.
@@sabbathjackal Fo-E-nix for phoenix then? While many oe words are pronounced oh-e in English (poet) we pronounce greek 'oe' sounds as a short 'ee' (Phoebus, Phoenix, Foetus, Phoenician). Although there is a difference between british pronunciation (which uses 'e' for 'oe') and american (which prefers 'oh-e' for 'oe').
There is a sort of personal question to John Wick that the movie does ask, its just that its sort of buried behind/tied into the major conflict of the story. The question John Wick posses to his friend at the start of the film is the 'question' that the movie asks; is it possible for a person with such a checkered/bloody past to be a good person or seek redemption? This is the reason why the dog is important to him in the first movie and why there is a moment in the second movie (when he gets to Italy, right before he suits up again to kill the Italian Boss) where he has a moment of anger and anguish at himself and his situation. He left the life of violence behind and the second he steps back for a second and semblance vengeance; he's dragged back down into the world he left behind kicking and screaming the whole way. You could say that the answer to the question is there; "There is no way for man who used violence for gain can ever really run from it" but the movies continue to play that John is just trying to escape from the world he lived in and tries to give people chances to walk away. It would be interesting to see how that would go down in a eastern perspective though and how that question would be answered by which director/writer/team.
@@Mariusweeddeath >"There is no way for man who used violence for gain can ever really run from it" With this you hit the nail on its head. Jackie Chan would make it with a lot more soul-searching and a lot less guns. Wuxia directors... would do the same, with a lot more rain and set in ancient china. If a japanese guy directed it we would get a surprise box from "japanese-bubble-plastic-pop-song-video" to "John was haunted by the ghost of the dog who in real was his reincarnated wife"... "who also killed all the bad guys like a real japanese ghost so that her husband didnt have to. But he has and in the end he dies and they spend eternity in hell". And propably an anime. I really want Takeshi Kitano directing it, and he's alos Wick. AND NO GAIJIN!!! Except Watari.
Well, taking only the first movie into account? More time before his wife's death, only hinting that he did something terrible for a living previously. Then the wife dies and we spend at least one 'typical day' of his new routine, showing how important his dog is to his stability. Then what was the inciting incident happens and about 30 minutes later, everyone responsible is dead and gone. The underworld backs off, since he is done. Now we spend the rest of our time with him as he tries to find a new balance. No one comes for revenge, because that's not important. What's important is establishing how John moves on. Be that with therapy, or art, or suicide. The question becomes "When your attempt to become a better person is destroyed, what do you do about it?" With assorted answers. Interestingly, neither would answer the corollary to " is it possible for a person with such a checkered/bloody past to be a good person or seek redemption?" which is "Does such a person deserve redemption?"
@@@Sorain1 I think that it's the influence of western phylosophy and religion that changes the "Does he deserve" to a "Everyone deserves". I think that that is what let christianity spread in japan the first place. Buddhism was all about the non-acting and letting it be, but christianity actually enforces the "be nice, do good" Love&Peace.
Wow, perfectly summarized! You are exactly the person i needed to discover. I've been running a D&D group for some of my clients (I'm a counselor training to be a psychologist) and i was trying out different writing styles, applying the structure of kishotenketsu to story and non-player characters makes a lot of sense for both my ASD (Autistic spectrum disorder) clients and also my high-anxiety clients as it puts less pressure on them, it's less confronting. Having a focus on internal conflict is exactly the premise for me making this group, the theory was that i could foster positive growth in a controlled environment by giving the socially overwhelmed clients a "buffer" with the character they are roll-playing, you re-affirmed a lot of what i was thinking about this storytelling style and gave me some inspiration to work on! Thank you sir, i look forward to becoming obsessed with your content ^_^
Interesting theory, I've also been interested in merging psychology and art in my own career possibly, and I'm just wondering if you were able to obtain useful findings from your theory. How's the group going?
as for any media other than manga or anime. i think they wouldnt do a good job because of cultural reference. personaly i didnt like the japanese drama, movie or live action
Whilst I enjoy your content, I will say this is one video that somewhat misses the mark for one main reason - the exceptions being just as common as the rule. Eastern media has many famous stories in which the conflict is the driving force. As you brought Dragon Ball up in your video, that's a story in which each arc has been fully driven by the premise of the impending doom of the main threat as early as the Piccolo Daimao Arc. Other major examples within eastern pop-culture include every part of JoJo's Bizarre Adventure (with the slight exception of Part 4 and solid exception of Part 8), Legend of the Galactic Heroes, Fullmetal Alchemist, etc. On the flipside, you have just as many western stories focused on being character studies driven by internal conflicts, some of the most notable examples being the films Taxi Driver, Citizen Kane, 12 Angry Men, Raging Bull and a whole ton of novels from the 17-19th Century, such as most of Jane Austen's writing or Madame Bovary. Whilst you could say that many of these could have had influence from the other culture's structure, let's look at some other classic epics of both cultures - The Iliad for the west and Romance of the Three Kingdoms for the east. The Iliad is almost entirely a character study examining Achilles and how he perceives war, the novel ending quite a while before the end of the Trojan War. Meanwhile, Romance of the Three Kingdoms is entirely focused on detailing the conflict of the Fall of the Eastern Han/Three Kingdoms Era from start to finish and, whilst spending time to detail each of the characters' personalities, treats this as secondary to the actions taking place. That said, I'd say that the idea of there being a narrative structure associated primarily with either east or west is a somewhat narrow view. It overall more comes down to the writer as an individual and their purpose for their story - being whether they intended it to be more of a conceptual piece or character study.
Good point. I always am wary of people that try to put extremely large groups of people into boxes and say "This is what these people are like and this is what those people are like." It's better to judge things individually, although cultural context has _some_ significance.
I agree. Though he said in the video that he didn't mean to say one style is better than the other, he did heavily imply that Eastern storytelling is always more clever and deep, and thus better, and Western stories are nothing but bumbling, stupid and superficial cliche storms. Most comments here explicitly say that. The video is very interesting but something about sticks out like a sore thumb. It really feels like he's belittling Western storytelling.
@@zak9399 Generalizations are just that- generally true. Not always true. Not even most of the time, but rather often enough to be recognized as such.
I think stories that fuse elements of the two are the best. I don't want to just have one character and a bunch of enemies that he conquers, I'd prefer multiple protagonist characters where minor conflicts can arise in how they approach the main goal. And personal growth or change can then also occur in the pursuit of the main conflict. Shadows of the Apt is one of my favorite books series, and the main plot definitely drives the story. But all the many characters actions make sense and their personalities change over the course of the books. I mean, the author's a libtard and I think at least one of the books wasn't entirely necessary to exist, but its still a great narrative with a main conflict that doesn't just resolve, but evolves until the end.
Awesome video, my dude. Also, did anyone else feel a minor stab of impatience every time he mentioned Journey to the West? Like, each time he mentioned something in the story or one of the characters, I'd see it as one of Red's drawings.
This makes me remember that episode in censored gaming, where Pokemon was censored in the west, in a funny way. I remember that episode where they refer to onagiri(rice balls) as jelly donuts in the west😂 Anyways, animes like One Punch Man and My Hero Academia, shows that even Japan is catching up to the western hero troupe. In fact, I like those animes. I could probably say that Japan has out west the current west, when it comes to superhero storytelling.
Yeah, it's kind of amazing that the West continuously fails to write compelling stories for Superman, while the East can crank out One Punch Man after Trigun all day. Video basically explains why. When your story is about the strongest man in the world, it's hard to write compelling conflicts for him without undermining what makes him unique (being the strongest). In Kishotenketsu, you can look at the personal ramifications of being the strongest man in the world
@@Kumathebear726 I mean, Superman is the best-selling American comic of all time and one of the most iconic Western superheroes of all time. You can write a compelling Superman story, you just need to be an actually good writer, which is, funnily enough, the requirement for writing *any* compelling story.
2points: 1)The structure difference to me isn't an opposition. The two can be reconciled. 2)Kishotenketsu sounds like the structure of how to write a conflict.
*_As an aspiring writer myself, I'm glad the East wasn't infected with feminist fiascos while the West got suffered with their "antics". I wish the Occupy Wall Street and Gamergate shouldn't have never happened in the first place. This is where the SJW culture is all started._*
This video has been really inspiring for me, funnily enough I've never tried to write with a formula other than the triangle despite writing fiction for a good 7 years. I'd love to see more videos on different structures/tropes and how they effect storytelling, I think it would benefit writers by expanding their ideas on how a story can be told and result in a lot of unique concepts.
Interesting look into the different ideas of roles for main and side characters throughout storytelling in both parts of the world, over the years. And movies! One big different I've seen in storytelling between Eastern and Western stories -- at least from amateur (students) to professionals (Murakami) -- comes from content and style. Eastern writers tend to be more poetic, wax poetically, and be more slice of life. Things are flashy, romantic, dream like. Western writers tend to be more based on prose, focus on plot, and thus be more journey focused. Things are more practical, believable, material. I can see these patterns throughout nearly every genre. It might have more to do with language and how one is raised, or manners and cultural belief. Now, anime and manga has a huge impact on storytelling, especially dialogue; much different than how we see that in Western comics (or comics to western animation & movies.) Which would get quite confusing, especially when we look at poor movie adaptation.
Interesting. One thing I can think of that might have influenced this difference, at least a little, might be Samurai culture. Poetry played a part - as I believe it was a tradition to write a death poem before they expected to die. Romantic prose seems to have been part of the creative foundation - at least in Japan.
@@LiteratureDevil There is also a sense of higher purpose or meaning in stories in Eastern storytelling. I compare the live-action Casshern vs the live-action Gantz films. They both focus on the idea that good is subjective, and what you perceive as bad might be based on (wrong) perception and/or (wilful) ignorance. What starts out as a relatively simple story becomes more layered and nuanced towards the end and both ends with very profound commentary on the message the movies tried to convey through the visual medium.
Hey, I've been following the channel for a while and love the analysis of drama and character development. I'd like to suggest some commentaries on Attack on Titan. The female characters are amazing and the dramatic structure is awesome.
@@LiteratureDevil no ad watching for this video wish ur channel didn't came to the largest TH-cam consumer region india East in a American mind equates to china and japan which are so much influenced and deep-rooted in indic civilization and its literatures like largest and oldest topics like mahabharata ramayana life's of buddha etc.. Still no use Americans still don't understand the largest asians are south asians which is the older than Chinese civilization and had influence over entire central and southeast asia
One thing I can definitely think of, at least with how most things are now is that Eastern storytelling is allowed to have fun where as Western has to preach and teach with fun being secondary. In My Hero Academia, its about school kids with super powers learning to be great super heroes and One Punch Man is about an absurdly powerful man dealing with the boredom of not being challenged due to his power. There can be morals here but the major point is fun, we get cool super battles and unique and creative displays of power, not preachy political bullshit. In a lets say Mocking Bird from Marvel comics, its about a female super hero dealing with sexism, rewriting the established canon to make her world seem sexist so the story can preach about sexism and feminist ideology, Female Furies from DC is similar with a group of female characters fighting against a sexist patriarchy of Apokolips and this is meant to be political and reflect real life things as opposed to a fun story. Even some indie comics still seem to be about politics like the one Mark Waid is doing about school shooting victims getting super powers, I wonder what inspired that... Eastern stories can have fun, they are their own thing. MHA isn't some sort of allegory for law enforcement or terrorist attacks at schools, its about super powered kids in a world nearly completely filled with super powered beings studying and working towards becoming great super heroes which is the most popular occupation of that world. OPM isn't about depression or being discriminated against over your appearance or a privileged class of people being valued higher solely for what they are instead of what they do, its about an insanely strong guy who became a hero for fun, trained way too hard and became too powerful so now he can't have fun being a hero because its too easy and there is no stakes. Both these series are incredibly popular but if they were written by Western Writers or adapted you can bet the new writers would not shy away from making some political statement. It wouldn't be in the background, it wouldn't just be the icing on a deliciously interesting story, it would be a major focus, it would be trying to teach you or preach to you and you are expected to like it. Eastern stories, at least manga and anime which I am focusing on, have to get by on their own merit. They aren't being written to appease a certain group (at least not a political group), they want to and need to appeal to everyone and they try to. Western, which I am focusing on comics, can get away with shitty writing if they pander to a certain crowd. It doesn't matter if the plot makes no sense, that it retcons and destroys beloved characters or has disgusting implications, its pandering to a popular political group so all the story flaws don't matter in the STORY. Eastern doesn't try to pander, at least not to the extreme of Western, it has a story it wants to tell and it tells it because the writer wants to tell it. Western has to pander or at least feels like it does because every writer feels like they will be some powerful visionary when all they are doing is writing up a funny book about grown adults in spandex using fantastical powers or showcasing impossible physical feats. A lot of writers over here have lost any passion for story telling and instead just want to be political and sadly it doesn't even feel like a genuine attempt to do something they see as good and more so to spite opposition or to make themselves look good. I don't get that when I see Eastern stories, manga, anime, etc. Maybe its different in Japan but for me as an American, I just see them trying to tell a fun story and if its meh or bad, its because of the story flaws, not because they buried the plot in some meaningless political message. What is the difference? One allows itself to have fun and be creative, the other follows trends and tries to pander to make itself look good. Its not true across the board but it really seems that way.
I agree with this. One of the best thing about Western works is that they tell a mature message, but the flaw is that they become too preachy. On the other hand, Eastern storytelling is ideal for escapism and full of fun, but fails at executing a good theme/underlying message. Ideally, one would want to mix these elements so that the reader can be immersed and intellectually stimulated, but not completely driven out of their fantasy. What the West and East have both lost over the years, (outside of a few exceptions) is the idea of subtly. However, if you bring the two together, they balance each other. The underlying message ends up buried by the more fantastical Eastern style, making the story especially dynamic in regards to both its characters and its plot. Therefore, no room for political crap, because such preaching would completely shatter the story structure, pacing and immersion. West is also losing creativity though. Since things are aiming to be more political, stories are becoming even weaker and redundant than they already are. The publishers know these shitty formulas sell and encourage writers to follow creativity killing outlines so they can make a profit. Never forget that bad publicity is still publicity. It's still free advertisement and that boosts sales.
@MinutemanSam Yep. Makes sense to me, but that doesn't make me any less annoyed. That's why I stick largely to the indie market when it comes to books, games, etc.
I know you talked about the biggest 'issue' with Western Storytelling, namely that everything revolves around the plot and conflict. Which is why there's 'Chokov's Gun', to set up something to be used later in the plot. But I feel you overlooked one of the major flaws of Eastern Storytelling. Namely that since it focuses more on the Spirital than the Physical, it's much more prone to Deus Ex Machinas, plotholes, and other stuff to force their point and to just accept it, even if it isn't believable. A great example of this is Western vs Eastern fighting. Where with Western, things are more 'Realistic' in terms of damage. Someone gets shot in the arm, they aren't going to be using that arm for a while. Someone gets stabbed, that wound will still be there and effect how they fight. But with Eastern, the physical limits don't matter. A great example of this is the concept of 'Willpower'. Where a Hero in Eastern Anime like Bleach, Naruto, One Piece, and so on would be beaten horribly in a one sided fight, unable to even touch the enemy at all, and beaten till they are exhausted, left on the floor bleeding, suffering many wounds. But then through sheer 'Willpower' They will stand back up. Their wounds will not be effecting them. And they will suddenly be on par, and even stronger and better then the villain now, when it makes no logical sense. One Piece's first real major fight, Luffy vs Rob Lucci, is a great example of this. Even with Luffy's new power boost and upgrade, Rob Lucci is BETTER than him in every catagory. He's stronger, smarter, has more endurence and so on. He easily beats Luffy again and again and again. But every single time, Luffy always stands back up through sheer willpower to not lose. Even tho he's weaker, he starts using the EXACT same attacks, only this time they actually hurt Rob where as before they didn't. Not because Luffy got Stronger, or Rob got weaker, or anything. But just because. One Piece is a great example where Logic has no meaning, and Deus Ex rains supreme. And while that can fun once, it can also get kinda boring cause you know that no matter what, Luffy IS going to win. You don't know how, but he WILL Win. Luffy NEVER Loses, unless winning would upset the plot of the show. He effectively has built in Plot Armor. And that isn't good storywriting. Because how can we cheer for Luffy's victories, when they are just handed to him because he can't lose. Luffy, through out One Piece, has NEVER Trained, except during the 2 year time skip. That was the FIRST and ONLY Time that Luffy has ever Trained in anything. And yet, from the first episode, up to just before that Time Skip, Luffy is constantly getting stronger, fighting stronger enemies, going through strong conflicts. He goes up, and up, and up in the world of Strength... without ever training. Just through sheer willpower to beat the next enemy. It creates great fight scenes or interesting characters. But the writing as a whole? It's not very good. Take the example you used at 17:35 for Eastern Storytelling structure. In a real Eastern Story, the murderer would most likely be a highly trained and deadly assassin, and yet the Father, with no training, no weapons other than the pepper spray, and not even the element of suprise, would STILL end up defeating/killing the highly trained, highly equipped Master Assassin, through any damaging or normally killing blows that the Father would have suffered, all cause the Father wanted to avenge his family and that spirital nature of a 'good deed' gave him the power to live. We like the underdog winning against conflicts. But only if it's believable. When you have to Suspend your disbelief to get the plot going, is one thing. A package just falling out of a truck at the right moment for the Main Character to get it? By pure 'Luck'? That's ok, that COULD happen, a 1 in a million chance. But to RESOLVE Conflicts by Suspending your Disbelief? That's not the same. Having a Level 1 character, fight and kill a lvl 100 character would NEVER be Believable, no matter the situation or Deus Ex or luck. But with Eastern Storytelling, Deus Ex and suspension of Disbelief is pretty much a requirement and staple for most of it. Using the story with the Monkey King and 3 others at 5:30 as an example, you even mentioned it took DIVINE INTERVENTION for the 'Enemies' to become 'Allies'. The Good Guys didn't win them over with logic, talking, or having the enemies join to kill them when they had the chance and grew to be friends or anything like that. It took a Deus Ex, and Suspending your Disbelief of reality for it to work out. And that, to me, is a very big major flaw with Eastern Storytelling. Cause when A + B = 42, and not C, then why does A and B matter? You can replace them with anything, and still have the answer be 42. Using Journey to the West again, because it took Divine Intervention, does it matter that the 2 Main Good Guy Characters where who they are? Did it matter that the 4 guys were fighting? Cause at the end of the day, no matter how the 4 people were going to interact, there would be Divine Intervention. So nothing before that point matters. Take a look at Death Note as an example that doesn't have that problem. Light does what he does in reaction to what others do to stop him. As you pointed out, without L the story could still go on, and the 'enemy' could be replace with anyone else. But while the story would change, it would still be Light does soemthing, the enemies react and do something, and cause of that Light does something. One action, believably leads to the next logical action. But what if in Death Note Light wrote down L's real true name, and then L didn't die. No logical reason given, L just happened to be immuned to the Death Note, or had Divine Protection, or just sheer willpower was able to fight off the heart attack and chains of compulsion from the Death Note and lived. But magically L has a weapon on him and Light decided to just shoot L in the head and the story goes on. It would make no logical sense, would it? Both cause no one should be immune or survive the Death Note, and cause L just happened to have a weapon on him that one single time, and cause Light never actually kills using a weapon with his own hands. Because a Deus Ex happens, another Deus Ex happed to resolve it, creating 2 plotholes in the story and making the character, out of character. In Death Note, everying Light does is in believable reaction to what L does, which is a believable reaction to what Light did. A+B+C=D. But that's a RARE thing in Eastern Storytelling. Which is why Death Note is so highly loved, compared to say Bleach, which has so many Plotholes, it has plotholes, in plotholes, to explain away other plotholes. Every single fight with the main character of Bleach, the Main character wins EVERY single one of them, with a Deus Ex. It's the same with Naruto, a show that in the beginning, as in the first 7 or so episodes with the Zabuza Conflict, the story was grounded into reality. Character was kinda like Magic, but it had limits and laws. Lightning beats Water which beats Fire. It was a world set up where you had to be intelligent in how you approuched conflict, where even children can be full grown train assassins if the children were smarter and used their tools and jutsu's better. Then the Manga and Anime said 'Yeah, fuck that shit' and through out Logic and just how a bunch of people with plotarmor that Won a fight, just cause they were straight up stronger, better, or the writers just said so. Just watch the first few episodes of the Original Naruto show, then watch the episode with the real Madara Uchiha. Where Madara isn't the smarted, or the best at fighting, he is simply just Stronger, Faster, got Plotarmor, and literally has a unique super abilitiy no one else has that's unbeatable, can't be defended against, and can do literally anything the writers want it to. Plotholes, unbelievable characters, abilities, weapons, or characters that straight up go against the very lore or how the Manga's world was setup. And it's seen as a GOOD thing. Naruto is loved by most in the world, even tho it's objectively a badly written story. That's the Failure of Eastern Storytelling. It relies HEAVILY on Plotholes, Deus Ex, and just accepting when something happens, even tho believably it shouldn't happen. Ps. Sorry for the long, ranting wall of text. Tho I hope at least some people read it, even if they don't agree with it.
That's why I'm aiming to combine the fantastical/epic, spiritual nature of Eastern storytelling with the grounded realism and characters of Western storytelling. Like I said in a previous comment, I think it would be for the best if more authors could combine the two types since they are balanced in such a way as to cover each other's flaws. However, very few writers I've met are heavy enough plotters to manage such a workload. I don't think combining these elements is something a prancer could pull off well without being throughly experienced in their craft. And the majority of those who are experienced are already sucked into the mainstream publishing industry, forced to write the same marketable crap.
@@martyr_lightsilver1833 Wheel of Time is sort of exactly that. The elements of the world is inspired by eastern mythological concept while characters are based on western ones.
@@Amin-fo6ci Yeah, which while I will admit, is refreshing, succumbs to the problems of the long running shounen effect, where it takes too long for things to progress. Admittedly though, the pay off was worth it because I do fucking love the last book.
@Youlo King "but the Lucci vs luffy fight is more about the symbolism rather the outcome" That is kinda my point. It's about the Spiritual, the Sumbolism, and NOT about the Reality of the situation. Luffy won against Rob, even tho he was weaker and in reality would NEVER win, because the writers are forcing the issue and saying that the Ideals that Luffy believe in are BETTER than the ones that Rob believe in. In this case, that it's better to be Free, even if you commit crimes, than it is to face the Justice of the Law. Cause as much as you think it's 'Wrong', the Law, even if a stupid corrupt Law, is still THE LAW. And Ultimately Robin broke it and then escaped Justice. The Writer is pushing a specific Ideal, And because of that... Well that Ideal can never lose, right? It can never be wrong, right? We've actually got great examples to show how BAD that line of thinking is. Namely, we have SJWs in Reality, who break the laws, who destroy, hurt, and harrass, people for not having the same ideals as them. And in Fictional Storytelling, we have Marvel's SJW Woke Superheroes, like Kamala Kahn I think is how you spell her name. The NOT first Muslim Superhero, who is all about Feminism. Have you ever sat down and read her stories? Or watched reviews on them? It's a character built on an Ideal, and then forced to win every comflict through Deus Ex and being a Mary Sue, to force those Ideals to be seen as the better and correct Ideals. --------------------------------------------------------------------- Symbolism and Ideals are something to believe in, yes. But if your Symbolism is 'FORCED' into Winning, even tho is Reality it Fails, then is it actual a good thing? If it can't even work realistically in a FAKE Fantasy Setting, how can it work practically in Real Life? In a real life setting, does it matter WHY that Luffy attacks Rob, when in the eyes of everyone, they just see someone attacking a official government police officer who has done nothing wrong except follow the Law? Even if Luffy is the best and more justified reason, it doesn't matter the second he breaks the law. Again, looking at reality, SJWs say things that, realistically if believable, would kinda be useful and nice. Such as Equality of Race and Sex. But then we see them attacking, harrassing, and destroying the life of innocent people, because they don't believe in SJW's Ideals. It no longer matters how 'Just' or 'Good' the SJW's Message is, cause they are now the bad guys, they are breakin the law, they are WRONG, and thus their IDEALS must be wrong too. It's the same for Luffy. Luffy holds the ideal of Freedom. But he actively attacks and KILLS Innocent Law Enforcements just doing their job of stopping a CRIMINAL. He has destroy millions of $ worth of Property and so on. Realistically, in a real life setting, MOST people in the world would not care about his Message and Ideals, they would want him jailed/hanged/executed. Because he's a criminal. Ideals and symbolism need to be realistic, just like the characters. You can't have a Mary Sue Idealism, which can never lose and always win. Because such a thing doesn't exist in reality, or else it would already be infested into everyone and everything. Even 'Good vs Evil' one the most basic ideals in the world, isn't fully realistic, cause no one in reality is 100% good, or 100% evil. Everyone does good and bad things. Everyone is Grey, realistically. Which is why the stories that DO explore that, having characters that do good and bad things, are usually praised much higher than characters like Luffy who is 100% good and can do not evil, even if he breaks the law. People love Anti-Heroes and Anti-Villains almost always more than the actual Heroes and Villains themselves. Shadow The Hedgehog, Red Hood (Robin), Doctor Doom, Hulk, Deadpool, and so on. Those people are usually loved much higher than the Heroes in their stories. Cause they are more realistic, doing both good and bad things, depending on the situations they are in. Their ideals are much more believable because of it, compared to the ideals of the unbeatable heroes. Lets take 2 Heroes, and their Ideals and Symbolism of Good. Namely, Superman vs Batman. Superman never loses, ever. He's the 'Boy Scout', he always wins, and any conflict usually revolves around Kryponite or the Villain being unbeatable physically. Realistically, we can't realate to Superman at all. He is 100% Good, never does anything wrong, always wins because of his ideals even against heroes much better than him through a Deus Ex or just sheer willpower. Compare that to Batman, a guy with no superpowers and had to spend decades of his life training just to be on par with most villains. He's also unrealistic in the Gadgets he has to win, but his stories focus more on Detective clues, logic, and especially the 'Reasons' why Villains do what they do. Again, look at Superman. He is 'Good', and all of his villains are 'Evil', why? Just because they are. Look at Lex Luthur, where it is CANON that EVERY Lex, in EVERY Universe of the DC Multiverse is EVIL and can NEVER be good. That's never a good thing. But look at Batman Villains. Why are they evil? Joker? Because he's insane through chemicals, trama, mentally broken, and has an ideal he wants to push onto Batman. It isn't as simple as 'He's evil just because'. Same with Two-Face, a Man who was once a high ranked Lawyer till an accident Batman caused also broke his mind and he wanted revenge. Az Al Ghoul, Can never remember how to spell or say his name, is a Semi-Immortal human that wants to rule the world through the shadows and created the League of Assassin, which were one of the Groups that Batman trained from and mastered. Cause of his Mastery, Ghoul wants Batman to join him, because he sees Batman as being as close to perfect as a human can get. Strong Physical Strength, with High Genius levels of intelligence. As you can see, each of Batman Villains usually aren't so black and white. There were all once good people that turned bad because of different situations. Which is realistic. It makes their warped Ideals more realistic as well, compared to, say, Thanos, or Thor, or Superman, or The Flash. Without Realism, how can we believe in the Ideals and Symbolism being pushed onto us? And it's shown, that we like Ideals and Symbolism shown by Realistic People, in Realistic situations, better than just having the Ideal and Symbolism winning through a Deus Ex fakeness. With good vs evil, we also choose the side of good, cause it causes the less death, pain, and destrution. But in most Media, the Villains are always loved more than the Heroes. Thanos is loved more than the Avengers, and Joker is loved more than Batman. Stories about the Villains, seeing through the eyes of the villain, are some of the best written, and most loved stories in the world. Why is that? It's cause in Reality, Good vs Evil? 'Evil' gets more stuff done, gets farther in life, and gets rewarded much more than 'Good' does. Even tho 'Good' is the lesser of the 2 evils.
@@Jirodyne Not really to argue against you or anything, but I always thought that characters who strives for the highest morale even though they thamselves are just human is also really beloved, too. That's why we like the "protag with a disanvantage" (my hero academia) trope or well written redemption arcs (gollum from lord of the rings). Morally grey characters might resonate with our basic and instinctual side, but at the same time our more hopeful and ambitious sides root for the underdog to finally achieve self-contentment. That's why great conflicts in stories always teach us great morale while the conclusions are logical and believable. Take Sauron from Lotr, Joker from the Dark knight, or most animated movies for examples, as the villain usually fails ironically because of their own flaw in their ideology, mind you that a flawed ideology isn't neccessarily a uninteresting one. That being said, not every manga or anime or movies or tv series are created for the sake of making us thinks about ideals or anything that went far beyond our head. I would say that most popular shounen title are loved for their art and entertaining conflicts that don't always mean something, like there are no reason why Superman would pick a fight with Goku, yet fanboys still fantasized about it to this day. It is definitely a niche media. Though on the subject of ideal being pushed on, I think it isn't just the fight scenes that suffer this, but also the world-building in most of today's manga and anime, as they're only built to serve as a pedestal for the author's complains to be put on, and it annoys me to no end. I dropped One punch man because of that, unfortunately it started a horrible trend for every anime coming out lately, which is why I'm reverting back to disney pixar for more quality writing again.
@Not Important It definitely is surface level to an extent because of how quickly he's adapted to the quirk. Now him not originally having a quirk is irrelevant.
@Not Important Black Clover is nothing but a shounen tropes collection. Every plotpoint, every character, twist, joke, etc is what we've seen a hundred times before. It's written like the mangaka doesn't know anything outside other shounen manga. Sure, it's competent at that but it's derivative to its detriment. (read Beastar instead)
@Not Important it actually isnt at all different from your typical shounen anime in that regard. Taken Naruto, one piece, dbz, stray dogs, bleach, magi. The difference between say Naruto and bnha is that the strength of a character is is soley based on the persons power and their use of it within the bnha universe. For deku to be able to became the top dog, he needs to have a strong quirck because he cant 'learn new quircks" or "train more". And i think using one for all to do so is genious, cause there is so much room for growth within the power. Making it a great fit for a relatively long series since the MC can get alot of breaktrough moments full of growth without it feeling like he Just punches harder after some training montage, a a shouting match and dying his Hair blue.
I'm always amazed at how I can feel your presence while watchinh your videos even though you are just one frame in one side of the screen. You feel more real than many characters in popular media
Hail Literature Devil. I love your videos. What do you think of MCU's new Spidey replacement... your favorite Kamala Khan lol. It's so ironic that you compared her to Spidey in your "Is Comicsgate Wrong" series months ago and now this happens.
Ancient Greek stories were not written in USA. Some of the things he brings up, like the weak nerd and the jocks, are exclusively American, most of his points are indeed about western in general.
As a person who enjoys comics, anime and western movies, your thorough understanding of these media is quite impressive and the first youtuber I have seen with such a wide scope of understanding
It’s a different way of thinking. If you ask someone in the west what is the middle number between 1 and 9, they will tell you 5. (1+4 = 5. 5+4 = 9) You ask someone in the east the same question and the answer will be 3. (1x3 = 3. 3x3 = 9). We view things arithmetically in the west. They do so logarithmically Both ways to look at it are correct but are foreign to the other viewpoint. We also value new things in the west whereas the most prized things in the east are ones that are expertly fixed and appear new, despite being broken.
@@sara_s_ Well i think eastern storys have the plot being usually more confusing and the charcters being more powerful. If it would have been eastern literature, arthur would have lived and become the god emperor of the world, while robin hood would have become king.
Dude this completely explains why queens gambit felt so much like anime storytelling depsite being a western story. She even had "nakama" in the story where former "enemies" she beats come to her aid and become her greatest friends and allies. There was never a true "villain" it was about a troubled girl w an exceptional skill coping w her childhood trauma and her desperate need for human connection
I like Eastern storytelling better, Western feels more about always being dominant, too disconnected and cold, like if people didn’t matter, only the big picture. Whereas Eastern storytelling tells a person’s story, someone you can relate to or like, and their companions, their lives and how to enjoy the little things. Both have their ups and downs but at the end of the day, it’s way easier to remember deep emotional moments, than X dude being revealed to be the bad all along while either white stoic guy or minorities being cool cause their minorities and that’s their whole character, chase him in a car while shooting at him. Of course there are horribly bad tropes in eastern media as well, like insert yourself in harem here, or let’s see who has bigger boobs, or lolis But I find myself connecting more personally and deeper with a piece of media when it’s about a character’s physical or mental struggle than bunch of dudes fighting evil dude cause it’s my duty.
Western stories are bad for a different reason then you said. They are bad because political correctness have ravaged our stories. Thing is though, American stories still outclass all forms of Asian media except anime and manga. Look at other things aside from those two mediums and you will see their acting for example is subpar
@@ebeleingram8048 Bollywood is excellent. The style is different but there are excellent movies being produced. Om Shanti Om is a personal favorite as well as Rab Ne Bana Di Jodi.
@@iminyourwalls8309 Also gotta love how op's opinion on all storytelling boils down to modern TV... It's not like the legacy of written (I'm not even talking about spoken ones cuz folklore isn't real in America) mediums has any influence or importance here.
Also Jojo tends to be more western in structure but contains the group dynamic of the east (Part 4, which takes place 100% in Japan, is more eastern than western tho)
Your arguments don't line up. Your own example of Death Note completely contradicts your conclusion. It's not ultimately about "what's he gonna' do with the notebook;" that's resolved in the first episode. By your standards, its central conflict between Light and L does make it a western story. Without that conflict, Death Note wouldn't be Death Note. You say, "Light could have encountered faceless leaders of shadow governments. . ." Sure, and Luke Skywalker could have used the force to battle the Hutt crime families, or dark force users or invading armies of ewoks. We can make up whatever NEW plots we want, but those aren't real parts of the stories we're discussing. This applies similarly to your other examples. You haven't proved your thesis. You may have noted *A* frequent difference, but you've convinced me it isn't the defining difference. And you're plain wrong about the difference between eastern and western religions. It's like you're pretending the concept of personal sin does not exist. Just for fun, what would Death Note look like if it was run through the Kishotenketsu formula? What would pass between Light and L? Can't have them in a life-or-death struggle, so what is the plot? Do they become nakama? By the way, how DOES the arrival of the black ships fit in? They show up, bring technology and change. . . So what? The only clash is East vs. East. You didn't actually make a point.
But here's the thing Light vs L is a major plot point but it also adds the question if L wasn't there will there be others( or room for another) to be antagonistic. Its not that L is pivotal its the fact that you can take his role without effecting the protagonist.
In short, Western storytelling is more plot driven, whereas Eastern storytelling is more character driven.
Excellent summation
@hames stanfield Because both are hard to do well on their own?
Then how do you explain Cixin Liu's Three Body Problem? a rare eastern Science Fiction where the enphasis relies more on the setting than on the characters.
That might explain why I like eastern works so much. Fore me the Characters are the most important thing in a work of fiction. I enjoy it a lot more when a Character I like does something cool than a Character I dont like ore one I feel only lukewarm about. Its more satisfying. How much I like a Character also seems to influences my perception of its superficial aspects at least somewhat. Fore example I love the Character design of Reg from "Made in Abyss" but I think a huge part of why I love it so much comes from how much I love the Character himself. I would say it also suits the Character quite well. The Anime Digimon Tamers starts of very slow. Introducing the Characters and developing there relationships without a big villain to fight in sight fore like 12 episodes. But I like it a lot because the characters are very endearing.
If I like the Characters I am very forgiving on the story. It can be a super basic chosen one ore good vs evil story ore what ever. If I like the characters I can enjoy the story.
Although I also enjoy simply enjoy the eastern style a lot. They are so creative, colourful and wild. You probably not finding something like a talking cat turning into a car in a western work. Then again I think my overall horizon on works of fiction is very small. Maybe I am wrong here.
@@carlosbeltran6167 Already said in the video, there are always exceptions. For example the manga monster is really plot driven while a lot of superhero comic is really character driven.
I guess that means that if Pokemon was a western story, it'd be about defeating Team Rocket and not becoming the pokemon master.
I think that’s just Pokémon. Or else ash would’ve already been the champion
@@MustacheDLuffy Didnt he actually become the champ in one of the few last seasons?
Hahahaa no. He obviously hasn’t been the champ. You might be thinking of naruto
@@MustacheDLuffy I'm talking about the games
@@MustacheDLuffy a simple Google search turns up that ash did indeed become Champion
Defining intelligent people as weak nerdlike characters is not a western thing... it is specifically an american thing.
Yep, case in point the oldest written stories there are in Western literature: Greek mythology. There you'll have a ton of (physically) strong heroes who happen to be really smart as well. And the ideal human, demigod or creature has both muscle and brains - not only one or neither.
to be honest, I think Amerca has stronger pressence in media (such as movies) then other countrys in the West. I can name alot of American movies off the top of my head, but I know next to nothing when it comes to other western movies.
This type of thing mayde why people consider American only things to be Western things.
@@josefgunter4238 , I don't know why Greek myths are considerd western. Isn't Greece in Europe? it confuses me...
Where do you think that comes from?
@@MustacheDLuffy , ?
The Wests oldest stories are internal struggles expressed through an external struggle. That's why our stories have central conflicts, because we're supposed to abstract out how to deal with situations from those stories. But modern Western Storytelling has forgotten that to a large extent.
I don't think that was just forgotten in story telling.
@@chillinchum It's never going to be truly forgotten because the story of the hero is innate to our beings. But many Western 'storytellers' today intentionally avoid common tropes to be 'edgy' or 'woke'.
Than the eastern are using external struggle to express internal struggle? Thats just what a story is the thing that you said. Using external struggle to enhance expressed or more or less change in a good way or a bad way internally.
@@owo5869 It's more like this.
"Western achieves heroic status, or enlightenment, by defeating the external enemy whereas the Eastern must achieve heroic status, or enlightenment, to defeat the external enemy."
@@TheRedHaze3 But then the story is still being about Conflict which is a more western kind of storytelling
Literature Devil: "Every guy who's dramatically pushed up his glasses"
Me looking at LD's avatar: "Umm... I have questions sir."
Yeah, he really needs one of those fake glasses. And a bag of potato chips. XD XD XD
Yeah, as in "Do you sweat underneath the pads, too?"
(Pads = the little plastic thingies supposed to help make glasses sit more comfortably on the nose; dunno the English word, too lazy to DuckDuck).
Akaba Reji
@@p.s.shnabel3409 Sorry for my apparent perversion but.... mentioning pads reminds me of Sakuya XD
Now I do indeed wonder... and even more so: I would love to see someone else from Scarlet Mansion ask her that question XD
Gendo Ikari
I’m surprised you didn’t mention how Odysseus was best known and most respected for his intelligence.
I never knew; to me he was famous for killing monsters on a long voyage.
@X Man Well, since it was given by Athena, I'd assume it was a foreign bow, like maybe a Korean Gakgung that recurved so far back that the relaxed state is a near-perfect "O" and needs proper technique to actually string, especially compared to a Longbow or a Recurve
That or he's also freakishly swole, why many people can't even string his bow
Probably because that would hurt the case he is trying to make in his video, rather than support it.
Hey! No reason, just good-old-fashioned Drive to share Fun/Knowledge, driving me to say: If you like Criticism-Essays, try Madvocate, Jay Exci, and Hbomberguy, especially those about Shows. But enough of me 'speaking in General', so let me say something more video-specific now: 'Heroes dont Struggle' is of course a very broken Mindset of Today. The idea that the world's so hard that all Hope is lost. Hope aint lost, we just need to embrace grounded, good Coverage of Problems: Some More News, Real-Life-Lore, Illuminaughtiii, Holy Koolaid and those that constructively criticize Politics and Religion.
because half of what he is saying is BS. Plenty of western works have what he says only eastern works have (he means japanese works really) plus more, and he is basically saying "western bad japanese good" "western value superficial things, japaneses value intelligence :)"
Western stories--external conflict
Eastern stories--internal conflict
Then you get stories like Avatar: The Last Airbender that combine both.
And Metal Gear Solid does so in videogames.
I would say most good stories combines both. The difference is what actually drive the story.
This seems to be an excruciatingly simple description of thousands of different stories acorss literally centuries,
Though, take out the Fire Nation army and there's no show. The whole point of the Avatar as an individual is that he/she deals with conflict.
The characters' internal conflicts also stem from the show's external conflict, the war.
I mean, you can have stories that focus on various people during wartime and not resolve the actual military conflict but then the series would be an anthology of sorts and the protagonist definitely wouldn't be Superman Jesus with glowing tattoos.
Then you get the movie, where the internal conflict is the actors wanting to kill themselves, and the external conflict is the audience wanting to kill themselves
"Every guy who has ever dramatically pushed up his glasses" -Devil, you are indeed a man of deep, deep culture XD
Kinda missed elements like SOOOOOO many sassy ladies or excessive nosebleeds? ;P
Dan Dare I looked for this comment after hearing him say it.
That part got me too. Hilarious, but so true!
So generally with Western storytelling, the central conflict comes first and the premise is born from that, while in Eastern storytelling, the idea for the premise comes first and conflict is created from that idea.
No, conflict isn't necessary in Eastern storytelling. It's essential in Western storytelling.
@Anupam Srivastava He didn't fail and he did assimilate and incorporate the local population, his only fail was the inability to convince his tired army to follow up deeper into Asia or at the very least be able to successfully keep the empire together.
@Anupam Srivastava Like he can't "fail" technically if he hasn't lost a single battle.
No, this can only be applied to American/modern English storytelling, the rest of the west (mainly Spanish, French, Italian or even Russian storytelling is much much different from American storytelling and even more similar to eastern storytelling 😊
I'm disappointed you didn't bring up Avatar the last airbender
I wanted to and was going to, but it was made in the west and just inspired by Eastern influences. Unfortunately, I think it would be too distracting regardless at to how I used it.
@@LiteratureDevil So, does that mean you'll make a seprate video in the future on western media trying to replicate an eastern style of storytelling? As well as the good and the bad that came from it?
@@joecrazy9896 ^this would be cool, and the other way around too, if you could find examples
@@paxmorgana The Fate series. A lot of their stories focus on the main protagonists internal struggle sure, but it's a struggle that is put to the test by external forces; most notably the clashing of most if not all of the west's greatest heroes and legends.
@@LiteratureDevil It does have a central external conflict in the Fire Nation. Though I think some episodes would follow the Kishotenketsu format to some degree.
Thinking about it, the original Light is a Greek epic character. Empowered or at least competent in physical, mental, and social ways, but his hubris turned his undoing.
There’s probably an essay in there on that and death note’s popularity in the west on its own.
@Conrad Kujur I was waiting for him to bring up Jojo in the video, *SPOILERS* since part 3 is very similar to Journey in the West in many ways, although it also has many similarities with Western stories as well, the conflict being saving Holly and defeating Dio. Then you also have part 4 which is a bit different in that that although there is a an overarching plot device with the arrows, that is really the only thing connecting everything. One can also see that the original conflict between Dio and Jonathan is the reason everything happens in Jojo, connecting to fate which is a prevalent philisophy in both the East and the West (fate can clearly be seen in the end of part 5, which I really liked). I have only read a couple of volumes of part 6, but I can clearly see that the theme of Dio and the Joestar bloodline continues.
I think though that death note relies on that central conflict far more than is given credit though.
The story falls apart after L's death because he's already explored the death note and has gained dominance, it's just not fun to watch.
@@pkmntrainermann4476 L's death was necessary. They were evenly matched in wits, but in the end Light had the advantage of knowing all the tricks of the Death Note. It's a frustrating reality; no matter how smart L was, he could never overcome Light's inherit advantage. Sometimes it doesn't matter how good you are, someone else just has something you don't and there's nothing you can do about it. And Light's ego inflation after L's death is fascinating to watch. His complete disrespect towards L's successors makes his fall ever more satisfying to watch.
I wonder if the „american nerd aspect“ is the reason why many people see Light as „Mary Sue“
(And why I don‘t like cheerleader... :D)
@@jonahdewitt2158 couldn't agree more with you
I see those differences in Batman and Superman.
Superman: an all-powerful being that struggles to find his place in the world. Representing internal conflict.
Batman: a simple human that wants to clean the world from evil. Representing external conflict.
That's why so many writers fail to write Superman effectively. And so many people fall in love with Batman villains more than Batman himself.
Of course this is not set in stone and I can also be completely wrong, I'm not even a writer.
Kevin Cruz This is a little bit of an oversimplification but yes I think that makes sense.
Lets face it, Superman is hard to write unless you know how to do Arcs.
As a writer, I honestly think writing Arcs are underused and undertaught and it shows with some of our popular literature that when you analyze it...
Just doesnt make sense. Probably why if you search something on youtube with ‘Superman’ in it, it might just be either a critique of a major comic or a lamentation that character itself is flawed.
Which he isnt, but even I have to admit I fell into this trap at times.
Most great superman stories usually have an Arc tied to a Plot and it just so happens that most people in the west even extending beyond superman just cannot grasp this idea.
It doesn't help that people try to force interject the Messiah complex into Superman when that's not even remotely what he was about.
Justice League Unlimited, Cadmus Arc played this one straight. The whole issue was that Superman could have ended all conflict in totality. Problem was that he himself would become a tryrant, and that is something that even though he was pushed by lex luthor to do, and Cadmus expected him to do, his character wouldnt allow it. Justice League Unlimited was a perfect example of Superman done right, and the entire story was a masterpiece.
Superman's story is plot driven too but to a lesser extent.
Hit the nail on the head.
So basically,
Western storytelling:
- hero's journey
- dialectical
- coming of age
Eastern storytelling:
- how the changed hero lives after the journey
- how his presence affects other lives
- the meaning of this union (nakama)
But in Japan at least, there are so many Coming of Age stories.
Arigato, Lumo
@Bitcoin Beast Not really like that at all. The Difference is about the relationship between the world and the protagonist, not society.
Money.
[TR: "nakama" means really good friend. We've decided to leave it in because there's no real english equivilent.]
LOTR is probably the most nakama of all western stories.
Spider-Man: Into the Spider-Verse wants to have a chat with you...
Plot twist: I'm a Tolkien fan.
Pretty much. I was thinking about the RPG video games I like, and how many of them probably got influence from LOTR or are ultimately a part of or compete on the same market of a Japanese company so it's worth sharing themes.
Horus SC agreed
Wouldn't it be Bible (specifically New Testament)? You have Jesus who is main protagonist and he gathers his team of disciples along the way, of whom some initially were his enemies. There's also double plot twist at the end when after betrayal the team is back together as Jesus forgives Judas.
While at the same time adhering to the primacy of the central conflict. None of the characters would have done anything had it not been for the rising power of Sauron. At the same time it is also highly character driven where each member is fully fleshed out and important and the loss of one is a wrenching tragedy rather than simply an inconvenience. The ring is both an external threat, being the key to Sauron's power, and an internal threat in that it works on each characters fears and insecurities to try and manipulate them to its own ends.
You explained kishotenketsu in minutes while my Japanese professor spent 2 years and still couldn't manage to make us 'get' it XD/nam flashbacks to college days. Trust me, we Asians have trouble getting used to the Japanese style as well. Since Southeast Asian storytelling is also distinct from East Asian and might more closely resemble Western in some aspects. Our counterpart to the Odyssey and Journey to the West would have to be the Ramayana.
As an Asian person who likes anime, but tries to write western fantasy, with no prior education in writing whatsoever, I would often find myself confused with all the western tropes and conventions (the three-act structure, the five-man band, the rule of three, etc.) that I had only recently stumbled onto, and find that my story did not fit well into any proven successful structure, becoming something of a meandering, awkward amalgam of Asian and East and West that I have experienced from stories I loved growing up.
This video is very insightful and would help me to polish and steer my story with a clearer sense of direction and style. I'm relieved to know that it's okay if my story doesn't fit the western rules perfectly, and that that might have just been the unconscious influence of the other styles seeping out as I write, and vice versa.
I'm commenting on this so I can read your comment later. Looks interesting.
don't worry about it too much, I'm not a writer but I don't see any problems in having a story that doesn't adhere to a specific structure be it Western or Eastern. For someone like me those things would be more guidelines than rules to get me started, but if someone were to craft a mostly original style I don't see why it would be rejected if it was just honest and well structured storytelling, you can tell any type of story you want and slowly flesh out the plot characters and world in it until it fits your vision and who knows maybe your vision might be the new trope of your media. In the end those tropes developed from stories that were revolutionary at their time making everyone want to follow the trend setter. It's fascinating to look at the styles of each part of the world but you should have that help your story instead of having your story bend to those styles without reason, just my 2 cents tho xD
I'm commenting here because as a fellow south east Asian person (but American born and who grew up consuming almost primarily American media, and later Japanese anime) I really appreciate and adore your insight
East Asia I could understand having more Western Influences; America has been very present there and have been highly involved with use economically so they spread their culture to America and vice versa.
One thing that separates Eastern and Western Storytelling is the concept of urgency with older stories. Western stories such as The Odyssey contains an urgency for the hero, where as in Journey To The West, there is no urgency.
Urgency helps drive character action, either playing off of a ticking clock (externally) or a level of impatience (internally). Urgency also allows a more accessible investment from the audience. Stakes are established, a time frame set and a characters choices within those constraints will determine either success or failure.
That being said, when writing/crafting a story urgency should not be used as a crutch to complete your story, but as a tool to bring something different.
Like your video implies: Differences in the matter of broadening expression of story/narrative is a beautiful thing.
I think this is why I love eastern stories so much, I dislike urgency, my whole life is urgency I want to read about someone who if they don't do that thing this week no one starves.
I've always liked a journey to the west style group of companions just travel around and deal with what may.
@@VioletDeathRei Those stories are great as well. The journey can be just as important as the result.
@@VioletDeathRei dragon ball has urgency. most of goku's fight with freiza is pure urgancy because the planet is blowing up
@@savagetv6460 Obviously some parts of any story have more urgency, but as the video points out it's not as overarching.
Frieza isn't the eternal nemesis, in fact he even ends up fighting on their side in the new series, as if that was the plan all along.
Dragon ball super is much closer to the classic journey of the west, it mostly relies on the fact that goku wants to fight strong people.
That's the biggest difference in my opinion the urgency is a matter of choice, goku had to pick this fight as he wandered around looking for strong opponents, and well he kind of ******** up.
Honestly dragon ball takes more western influences then you'd think for a story made around the idea of the monkey king from journey to the west.
That's why it gets compared to superman so much, the core difference is that starting from nothing to become a god, rather then a god having to deal with being given nothing.
@@VioletDeathRei superman doesn't have urgency. he can have stories with no conflict. his origin stories focus more on his character dealing with the reality of his alien heritage
I adore storytelling that mixes the two styles, or when one of the styles takes inspiration from the other. An example would be JoJo's bizzare adventure. It's made with an eastern mind, but it's so influenced by Western storytelling that even the premise takes place mostly in the West. Also all musical references are top notch, but that's a personal preference.
So was Fist of The North Star influenced by western culture back in the 80s and the predecessor of animes like Jojo and even DBZ but it also influenced Japanese fighting games like Street Fighter or Mortal Kombat but nowadays eastern storytelling seems more isolated from the west being shows like Jojo a rare exception.
Masterslam999 Soul Eater is also a mix as it has enemy focus and external conflict along with the characters going through their own personal internal struggles
Example of that is in steel ball run or any part in the series
MHA has references to a lot of Western Superhero comics, but there is a lot of Japanese storytelling tropes present as well.
@@caliente2512 Mortal Kombat is american not japanese
Tekken would probably make more sense
I prefer the five man band be titled like this:
Leader: the person that doesn’t necessarily lead the group, but typically controls the direction of the story and group.
Lancer: the character that is closest to the leader, either as a foil, rival, best friend, lieutenant, or chief supporter
Big Guy: the character that acts as the “muscle” of the team; either as the toughest, strongest, or the one with the biggest gun, but not necessarily the largest in size
The Heart: I feel this is more accurate as it describes the character that acts as the emotional or moral center of the team and the one that holds the team together or else keeps the group grounded on what they value and their goal. It can be a guy or girl and male examples exist prior to social justice fanatics, so Heart works best.
The Wise Guy: this was the best choice as the character that fulfills this roll could be the smartest in the team, but it’s also just as likely that this role could be filled by the “funny guy” or a character that is not necessarily the smartest at science or strategy, but offers the mentorship or wisdom needed for guidance. Think the older gargoyle in Gargoyles for the wise type and Beast Boy for the funny type. In short, he could be smart, funny, wise, or a combination of each.
I’m still calling the male heart the chick. You can’t stop me
@@notyetdeleted6319 whatever floats you boat, just dont make fun of people who call chicks hearts
I agree the heart can be anyone, so calling them the chick, I think hurts both men and women. Men for the idea of not be emotional, and women for being nothing but emotional. By now, we're mature enough to know that anyone can willing or not willing show emotional support, regardless of background.
@@ebenezerboateng5915some of us are mature enough, but in no way has everyone grown out of their perpetual childhood.
I will never understand why American adaptations of Japanese works must be given an "American" feel. What I like about Manga and Anime is that is from a culture different than my own.
Same reason Marvel and co. marginalize/demonize legacy characters: they're trying for a different audience, not knowing that audience doesn't exist.
@Jean Gentry Why? If not, they will not be profitable. Or at least they think so.
They probably think that watching a different culture may be too shocking for the average American.
@@DonVigaDeFierro And that mindset breeds isolationism and ignorance. I fucking hate it when shit is lost in translation because it erases unique cultural nuances I have taught myself and researched to better improve my experience.
that means your a simp with no loyalty to your culture. You're an r selected rabbit
And once again, like a broken record, Avatar The Last Airbender is a perfect blend of both. The central conflict is saving the world, while the internal conflict is whether Aang could rise up to be the Avatar.
As a counter-example, I would bring up Berserk; the central conflict being over Guts's maniacal desire to kill Griffith and avenge the rest of the Band of the Hawk, whilst his internal conflict is about whether or not he can allow himself to give up on the central conflict & simply protect, nurture, and grow the ones he cares for to the best of his ability.
Society: How many tropes would you like to subvert?
ATLA: Yes.
@conan263 yes :)
Hm, not really, remove the conquest of Fire Nation, and Aang has all the time in the world to Master the Elements, no struggle to learn Fire Bending, since he's not afraid of it, no dangerous adventuring with the gang. Aang just calmly masters the elements in a controlled environment and that's it. No conflict - no story.
I watched it as a teen and I watched it as a grown man, I can say that I appreciated Avatar more as a grown up. It has a rich storyline that teaches philosophy in a way that a kid cannot simply understand.
Well done, I felt like I was at a college seminar listening to this, but better. Good in-depth analysis :D
Still watching, but want to make a plea before I forget:
As an eruopean, I was basically raised on works such as Dylan Dog, Zagor, Martin Mystere, Modesty Blaise, Phantom, Iron Fist, Comanche, Bernard Prince and others. I didn't have access to north american comics. It would be quite interesting, for me, to hear you dissecting the likeness and differences, since our superheroes were quite different.
Yeah, oddly enough there is a noticeable difference between American and European works. I even remember Luc Besson's La Femme Nikita being remade into Point of No Return for the West. It would be an interesting topic to explore, I think.
@@LiteratureDevil wasn't there an American TV series called La Femme Nikita?
@@jeangentry6656 Yes, it was produced in Canada I believe and is still one of my favorite shows of all time. (it was based on Luc Besson's movie)
@Sharkzilla3000 I think Dylan Dog was translated to english for few issues, I strongly recommend it.
If you have a taste for consumerism satire with italian flavour - Alan Ford is a thing to behold!
@@machinedgod
This all sounds Ex-YU
I never understood the American cliche of the smart kid being awkward, honestly all the popular kids at my High School were the top students academically and all were in multiple sports too. Maybe that was just my High School...
It's just a shortcut to storytelling, which kind of makes sense with the video because the "jock" and "nerd" aren't the focus in these cases. Unfortunately, it's an easy mistake to think the flaws of these characters eventually makes them interesting as a main character. Development isn't made by 'erasing' weaknesses, it's by acknowledging them or overcoming them. Or getting stronger I guess, weakness isn't the answer to every development.
It's something that developed from a weird assumption that you can not be more than 2 of the following at once: Athletic, intelligent, socially successful. Athletic and Intelligent? You're isolated, usually explained as you intimidate people and your 'friendships' are shallow and conditional. Athletic and social? You are dumb as a rock or if of typical intelligence, arrogant. Intelligent and social? You're physically weak, and usually depicted as evil. The kind of backstabbing social climber no one should trust. I've never seen that to be true in real life. But then I've been outside of the mainstream school system for 95% of my time when I was in school. In my school experience, there were two tiers of social ladder. The 'normal' folks had some intricate hierarchy I never cared about because it wouldn't effect me. I could not participate, so it didn't matter. I was in the morass, the 'second ladder' below the bottom of that first one, where people only interacted within strict boundaries and only with each other. I'd liken it to the fact the nobility of ancient times didn't care what the peasantry did with/to each other, just so long as it didn't involve them.
Then again, I was remarkably isolated growing up so I'm a very fringe example. From my observations of that 'normal' social ladder, it would be more accurately described as a triangle with 'no one important' in the center, Social at one point, Athletic at another and Academic at the third. Any individual could be placed as a dot inside and their standing was superior the further from center it was. Though only respected within that direction.
Split Haven tropes are tools and every single writer knows that, you simply cannot ignore tropes, they arent pervasive in any way they are a means to an end, write a story
@Split Haven and other that responded. My point was and is that the trope is largely not accurate most of time anymore. At the high schools I have been to the smartest people are popular and somewhat athletic. It feels outdated and I think a story of an American high school student being smart and not being a nerd would be fine haha
but where there not 2 movie ( i cain remember wice one i watched) that the popular kid where smart but acted dump for the sake of there title, i though that quit broke the stereotype movement once that i quit enjoyed or they told they chould not see anything withoud glasses and becomeing a nerd more and more and when they made friend with the nerd and becaome again beutifull they didnt want become popular anymore or they where but this time looked to there real friend
Lord of the Rings seems more of Nordic storytelling, which is a combo of eastern and western styles.
Lord of the rings is heavily influenced by nordic and old English stories, which are very different in style to more modern stories. In particular Beowulf.
Interesting.
Nordic stories are Western- not Eastern.
@@binarekoharijanto4586 Not really, a lot of norse stories just start out of nowhere, have no real conflict and are generally about how the characters react to the situation.
You could call 99% stories from north mythology "The daily lives of the norse gods".
The only real western kind of story element it has is Ragnarök.
@@binarekoharijanto4586 No the most popular element of norse myth is Thor followed by odin in other words the characters, that's pretty much all most people know, next to no one actually knows about norse mythology.
Saying Rangarok is popular is like saying physics is the most popular science because people know about the Schrödinger's cat: thought experiment.
They have no clue what it means but, they know of it.
One Piece is a great blend of western and eastern story telling.
The main plot is eastern while the individual arcs are western
i mean most anime follow most of that formula
That's why it's so great :))
lmao no
The disparity of nakama-ness also shows the individualistic nature of the west and the collectivistic nature of the east.
I noticed that a few years ago when I watched a Chinese WW2 movie called "Death and Glory at Changde". There are two frontline soldiers whose story largely drives the plot of the movie, as well as some other characters. At the same time, however the action sequences devoted considerable foreground screentime to showing extras battling it out, including close-ups of the faces of people you never get to know much about. One scene spent I think a whole minute or two showing a soldier struggle to get up and get back to his position before being shot in the back of the head having accomplished nothing. I liked the style: rather than the whole world revolving around a small group of individuals, it showed you that this is a battle involving tens of thousands of individuals, each with a story not dissimilar to the stories of the protagonists.
@@5h0rgunn45 A bridge too far?
@@leonhaze-4202
Never seen it, though i hear it's very good. I was talking about a Chinese movie.
@@jakelee7083 Its not really a false generalization, tho it is a generalization, (which are always gonna have exceptions in which case arguing against them is stupid) Japan is a very collectivized culture, East Asian cultures are generally very collectivized, its why China only ever exists as a giant nation of so many people so often and why Japan has such a massive problem with state separation from society. (its also why they push so hard on intelligence and workplace success over individual success, individualistic goals are not praised in Japanese [or general East Asian] culture as a whole, and that's common in East Asia)
@@jakelee7083 "Sure, but that's only a plurality of the nation that actually thinks that way"
Which first off proves my point, and secondly demonstrates exactly what I just said.
"There are plenty of people, namely artists"
Wrong and irrelevant because even most artists think this way, you will rarely ever get exceptions to a mass majority of ideology of a culture, let alone any that's worth considering as an argument against any generalization. This aside it also makes selling to the audiences in that nation impossible if they don't in some regard subscribe to this in all their works, (meaning you are basically guaranteed to fail by not having even part of the generalization, which also keeps the artists onto this path) its called appealing to the masses and no amount of art is successful without doing this.
"The other part of the country generally doesnt care and is only going along with what a lot of people say because they can't help it."
This is a pointless statement and actually kinda terrible as an argument. It doesn't dissuade any of my arguments, if anything it only further confirms them. Also they can help it, claims of otherwise are retarded excuses, unless you believe in people being defined entirely by nature and instinct, not by thought, sentience, or consciousness. (which ironically enough would mean you don't even believe in an individualistic methodology at all)
Also "country generally" you invalidate yourself with this.
"I'm sure they prefer something else, but are too scared to express themselves."
If they did they wouldn't be as they are, and they wouldn't push these ideals down the line for generations. Its why they're so fine with authoritarian principles and government overreach and oversight, why their political, legislative, and judicial systems are so authority sided. (and lacking heavily in actual individualistic treatment even for such systems comparatively in the west) They don't do anything and they don't say anything, and they leave it as it is, they are by nature and design accepting what exists. If they didn't they wouldn't be so submissive.
"That's reflected in a lot of Japanese literature that critiques the government and Japanese society."
Just because there are people criticizing the government and society doesn't mean anything, that happens in every society that lets a form of speech liberty go. A society that wants to change won't criticize itself and complain about its problems, it will change voluntarily, that's how counter-cultures work. (and Japan has got a very weak counter-cultures, they tend to boil down mostly to literature that don't actually contribute much to solving the problems it lays out) Even with resistance, it happens by itself, this is the nature of a normally decentralized society, but the people of Japan (and general East Asia as a whole) don't actually much care about their social and cultural outlook.
"The same goes for Korea and China."
I can guarantee you it applies even less to them. Korea didn't have the same intervention from the US and China is entirely ruled by tyrants. The people don't care enough and have lived for millennia under those principles of operation, the 20th century still has not changed that, otherwise you would see them adopt Classical Liberalism as a society and try to overthrow their government. But they don't, and they never will because its not perceived as socially positive for East Asians.
"How many Chinese people did you think knew about the impending doom that was Communism and decided go yeet out of there?"
Which was the worst thing they could've have done. If even 1% of the Chinese population had (or even now) stood against the government, the government would fall apart immediately, if they wanted liberty and individualism, they would've established it, not fled to avoid it. Even then, most of them didn't flee and didn't stand up.
"Everyone that didnt agree left."
Not really how that works since most people that don't agree usually aren't that hardline in their disagreement and in most case, most folks don't have it bad enough to do so, or don't have the capabilities to consider it often if they do. Instead the only people who leave are the only ones that could've made a difference. This is actually a paradox of migration generally, most migrants that leave due to ideological or societal problems with their nation usually make said nation worse off in the long term because they're the only ones who were capable of doing anything themselves.
"And I can safely say the same for a lot of East Asians."
Not demonstrated so not sure where you're pulling this from. It doesn't even historically make any sense to claim this.
"There are plenty who are individually oriented."
Even if there are, which I'm fairly certain in East Asia there aren't, they don't contribute consideration as a population nor demographic and nobody records them in a statistical nor as a considerable political movement. This means they are an exception to the generalization that aren't even worth considering even beside the generalization. They won't accomplish anything and don't seek to. Also just gonna point out left leaning politics are not individualistic.
"Its just that the Western perception of the East drives that stereotype and thus false generalization."
You don't understand anything about sociology, psychology or statistics, and understand nothing of what a stereotype or generalization mean in themselves. Also nothing you said has any basis, you haven't provided anecdotal backing tbh (which I still would call wrong because anecdotes aren't worth consideration for population demographics) let alone dissuaded my statements. In this case its not reasonable as an assumption and it kinda just feels like you're making excuses to claim you're right instead of looking at the argument objectively.
"While it's true insofar as the West is concerned"
And there we go, once again my point has be proven.
"that doesnt take into account the Eastern lens and what these people actually think."
Not how you argue demographics, stereotypes, generalizations, statistics, politics, or anything else regarding behaviorism. It also doesn't work as a refutation of what I've already said and pretty much proves this whole chain is an excuse to argue semantics instead so you can't be proven entirely wrong. You shouldn't be trying to win the argument and now you can't even actually do that anyway since you straight up accepted my point.
"It's why so many people in Japan are closet otakus or try to pursue a hobby on the side."
While many of the younger folks are, (although I'm betting you that's more temporary then you think, also they don't do anything regarding society still) this doesn't confirm your side of the argument, it doesn't even refute mine slightly. Also most of them are partaking in distractions, not pursuing practical hobbys. (least ones that could lead to actually being individually successful) Also Japan is majorly a country of older folks more then most nations, (even for East Asia its pretty high) and they aren't otakus.
"You can see that reflected in a lot of school anime where the characters are worried about school, but really dont care and are only doing it to continue pursuing their passion."
Well given they put so much value into schooling instead of practical skills, that honestly only further demonstrates my point, even these "artist" types think school has some kind of answer at the end. Not to mention that they still put book knowledge on a pedestal above everything else in every case. No they really don't care about individual success, otherwise they'd pursue practical measures across the board.
"That's not collectivist in the slightest and that doesnt only apply to the youngest generation. That's quite literally the West right now if you think about it."
Ah, I see what you're trying to do, you're quite stupid tbh to make that argument and its even more idiotic to make such claims without any backing. Honestly that was a lot of excuse to claim you're not wrong but in reality nothing you said holds water, you tried to talk about exceptions and specific (near non-existent) cases but even they don't follow very individualistic measures, and I know that especially because the people haven't reacted and the counter-culture hasn't appeared. (people locking themselves in their rooms alone doing whatever pleasures them is not counter-culture, that's egoist self-indulgence, which in this manner is actually still rather collectivist)
"Plenty of examples of Chinese people escaping to other countries exist."
Anecdotes (your examples) aren't worth considering when it comes to generalizations, stereotypes, statistics, and demographics, don't give me this bullcrap, even if a million people leave China for this reason, it still doesn't represent 1% of the people's opinions. (making it a statistical irrelevance) And even then the media surrounding China criticizing it comes from the outside with nobody overthrowing the (Fascist, as that's what "Communist" China really is these days) government, if even 1% of the population stood up, the government would be immediately gone. (that works with all governments, if a government is actually stood up against by around 1% or more of the population, it literally collapses)
Living in both the West and the Far East has led me to notice that, very generally speaking, Westerners have a certain mastery of matter and "outer" space, whereas the Easterners have a certain mastery of spirit and "inner" space.
Each have more of what the other lacks. It is quite noticeable. Both are relative masters of one and amateurs of the other. Really.
The west is on the brink of collapse due to its deep seated spiritual malaise.
I have no way of assessing your claim. I'll build off of it regardless. I think that on a societal level, Western Europe and China have a dynamic similar to how you describe their dealing with external (western) vs internal (eastern) conflicts in storytelling.
China historically has had so much arable land and so many people that during its dynastic era, they were content to keep to themselves. China was (and is) a world unto itself. Their relations with foreign countries (e.g., Korea, Japan) were typically as distant client states which exchanged gifts between ruling courts every few years.
Contrast with Western Europe. Europe, since the end of the Byzantine empire, was largely isolated, backwater, and cut off from trade routes east by the Ottoman Turks. So, they've generally had an external focus: colonialism, mastery of sail, crossing oceans, extending power and influence and looking for "more" on the outside for a variety of reasons.
I see that as a parallel to Western stories focusing on external conflict and Eastern ones focusing on internal. China has long been one social/political unit. Europe was, for most of its history, a Tower of Babel-esque subcontinent with no central power structure and much incentive to expand outward.
@@chasechiamulera7704 you say China was isolated, insular, and content, but that Europe, which was the same, was a backwater. Why?
China’s authoritarian monoculture discouraged innovation and individuality. The many rival states of Europe did the opposite. Columbus for instance paraded his expedition around Europe before the Spanish crown agreed to fund it.
@@reginaldforthright805 I say that Europe was a backwater, specifically during the Medieval period up to the Industrial period, because I think it was less connected to the outside world through trade, because it was smaller population-wise, and because I think in many ways it didn't have the same cultural impact outside its own borders at that point as many people might think. That stuff doesn't even begin until the 1700s onward. By contrast, China has had a profound impact on the linguistic and material culture of East Asia for a longer time, in my estimation.
In general, whenever you read about any of the nations of East Asia, the scale of human population dwarfs contemporary Western Europe. As an example, at the end of the 1590s, Toyotomi Hideyoshi's army of a reunified Japan numbered 250,000 men, while the contemporary "grand" Spanish armada was closer to 30,000. [www.samuelhawley.com/imjinarticle1a.html ]
Similarly, in 1350, all of Europe -- including Eastern Europe -- was estimated to have had 70 million; "The West" at that point was closer to 50 million. By contrast, the same year, China was estimated to have had 120 million people living there. [ en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medieval_demography ] [ en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Population_history_of_China ]
Europe doesn't start really having a huge impact on the rest of the world until the different states you alluded to engineered sail ships and improved navigation techniques. A lot of that was because they were locked out of Silk Road trade routes by the Ottoman Turks. (Of course, there were exceptions; for instance, the Venetians were known to have trade colonies as far east as Crimea, and even in the early middle ages, we've found Indian iron and some Chinese trade goods as far west as England. But I think the sum total material exchange between Europe and the rest of the Old World at that point was probably pretty light.) I know the word "backwater" is a bit inflammatory, and I am using it somewhat tongue-in-cheek, but also to emphasize that European military, cultural, and economic domination is a VERY recent phenomenon, and one which developed surprisingly quickly after close to a millennium of relative dormancy.
I know Chinese has profoundly impacted the regions surrounding it, and from a much earlier date. Modern written Japanese was started with Kanji, which were really just borrowed Mandarin characters that they started using in the 4th century AD. By contrast, I really don't think Western European languages had a huge impact outside their own region until the start of overseas colonialism, which really starts in the last decade of the 15th century AD. I know that written Vietnamese is similarly impacted, where anywhere from 30-70% of their vocabulary in written language is comprised of Chinese loan words. I also know that Korean politics and culture has been profoundly impacted by China as far back as the 900s; the Goryeo kingdom wrote its official histories in Chinese, and the later Joseon dynasty adopted Neo-Confucianism as a state-sanctioned ideology.
The last thing I want to mention regarding "Europe as backwater" is the architecture and geographical element. Western Europe is largely internally divided via rivers and mountains. This makes individual settlements more isolated than compared to a place like the North China Plain, which is more easily traversed by horseback for most of its history. Combine that with a complete power vacuum after the collapse of the Western Roman Empire, and the main unit of political statehood and power in Europe is the local nobility and their castle. European castles, especially those in the early Middle Ages, are small and primitive. Look up "Motte and Bailey" on wikipedia. It describes a raised court yard surrounded by a wooden fence, with a small artificial hill with perhaps a wooden guard tower for defense. It was the standard form of European "fortification" from the 10th to the late 13th century; look to Topcliffe Castle in the UK for a typical example.
By contrast, Chinese fortifications were far more robust, and adopted a far grander scale. As late as WW2, the Japanese took a full week to put a hole in Nanjing's city walls using modern high-explosive artillery. For further reading, I suggest: [ en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_city_wall#Effectiveness_against_artillery ]. A lot of the difference in terms of fortifications in China versus Western Europe is explained by "Europe as backwater": Europe had less people to build things, geography that made maintaining a centralized locus of political power much harder, and which therefore produced smaller forts for smaller states with fewer people. That is why I can justify calling Western Europe a backwater for at LEAST the period from 476 AD to perhaps the 1500s at the earliest (more like the 1800s if we want to start counting when Europe finally has a population boom which makes it a world player), but I cannot say the same for China. And also, I think characterizing pre-Industrial Europe as a "backwater" is a useful frame to understand WHY its competing states and individual inhabitants felt more of a compulsion to sail across oceans and find resources to exploit from different continents.
@@chasechiamulera7704 I’m skeptical. I think at worst medieval Europe was at the same level as the east. The cathedrals were far more advanced than any architecture in the world at the time. European swords and armor were also superior. As were their castles and siege technology - trebuchets, catapults etc. They defeated the saracens pretty easily and only lost the kingdom because of a series of blunders and inability to work together.
"Damn, man. This 'beach episode' was the best, I wonder if Literature-kun will ever reach the end of TH-cam saga"
Well, some American comics feature Nakama. One that comes to mind is Batman and the Bat family. Another might be The XMen.
Very true
Fantastic Four
Even Friends (the tv show) can be considered like that?
TMNT?
@@kz270392 Seinfeld could be considered slice of life through a certain lens. A very "very" foggy lens
Watching the part where you talked about “Japanese nerds” and looking back at my high school days make me realize how almost every single popular kids in my high school fit the top student category perfectly
Edit: I’m not Japanese but I’m at least Asian so I hope that count
Same here.
Oh right ur Vietnamese
The west has forgotten that Fantasy and reality are separate.
what they aren't?? you're crazy for saying such a thing
Saying that when the neweest trend in eastern storytelling are isekai and otome stories. Which are as about escapist as a story can possibly get and as in denial of reality as you possibly can be,
@@ballzdeep916 I don't think he's talking about escapism here, just how over here politics and real life issues tend to infect fantasy. Not that they can never enter stories, but when people get annoyed over what a fictional character is wearing, it gets really annoying.
Oh no way Lol Americans will see a fantasy world "WHY ISN"T IT REAL ? WHY IS IT FANTASY " Nah we cannot separate reality from fantasy we don't even understand what it means to make a fantasy world everything we make is some weird kinda pseudo documentary passing itself off reality . There are people trying to pass laws to ban cartoon due to fear of corrupting people sense of reality . Everything about Anime is clearly setup to separate reality from fantasy the fact they have colored hair color eyes the way it drawn . Japan has clear sharp line between there entertainment and the gray dull everyday reality . Americans try to mix to the 2 even are politics is just a form reality tv the fact we invented the idea reality tv.
I'm not talking about an inability to create fantasy stories. I'm talking about the insistence that these fantasy stories impact reality as more than just a form of entertainment.
I guess the Three Musketeers would count as Nakama. However take away the threat of the Cardinal and you just got three guys teaching the new kid the ropes.
Hardly. There was a lot happening in the background of the story in terms of locations/events/people, plenty of side character interactions and the story of the Musketeers were continued in later works. A lot of the classic writers had a large body of work, of which only a few were ever televised or made movies from. Lots of those "obscure" works can be had for free from Amazon or Project Gutenberg.
This video has been a lifesaver for me, I've been agonizing over my book outline for weeks now because I couldn't come up with a satisfactory overarching conflict, the idea never crossed my mind that maybe it isn't wholly necessary
that said your explanations show more than a dash of orientalism
That's nice and all, but when will we get Western vs Eastern Europe Storytelling?
i like any reason to talk about the witcher
I was unfamiliar there was a difference, but now you have me fascinated. Are there any famous Eastern European works you could list as an example? This sounds fun to ponder
@@ObsessedwithZelda2 I wish I had something in mind but I don't. I just thought about the generally darker endings of Eastern European stories, especially fairy tales.
Ah, fair enough. Love hearing of these differences in any case
@@ObsessedwithZelda2 The best Eastern Europe stories in my perspective come from Russia (Yes I know it's mostly in Asia but most people still consider it an eastern european country). Dostoyeski and Tolstoy are in my opinion the best authors I ever had the change to read (and I've read a lot of old and new books that are considered masterpieces). There is something about their books, in the level of complexity and deep character study that while it could be similar to other works, still has something that makes it special. Probably the level of objectivity, and that even the "bad characters" at no point are portrayed by the author as bad, but just humans. Also they are very objective writers that don't push their opinions down your throught. While Dostoyevski was a christian monk, he doesn't shy away from writing atheist characters that are atheists, and he portrays them as smart and kind hearted people. And when those characters talk about how God isn't real, Dostoyeski doesn't make them look stupid or ever tries to prove them wrong, he lets you decide (the reader) what to belive in, even thou he is a devout christian. That kind of writing today is almost impossible to find, where even the smallest opinion is forced unto you, and any other perspective is eighter bad or flawed. To sum it up, those 2 are authors with class, that analyse the human psyche and society in most of their books.
It’s not rly western storytelling if the stories are anti western
That seems to be the epitome of Modern Western storytelling.
Well, since modern entertainment is currently dominated a certain Middle Eastern tribe...
@@kollow It's always been dominated by those sneaky BERBERS!!
Which part of the video shows a western story that's anti western?
Explains why they hate eastern stories, they want them to be more anti-west but eastern stories don't require that kind of central conflict.
Western heroes have mostly physical capability and aggression
*Points to Guts, Goku and Asura*
I was gonna say Guts but you beat me to it
Guts and asura have an actual development unlike goku
But can you really say any western hero matches the big brain prowess of say, the JoJos?
@@Anubis-xk4ht I think his character development doesn't develop anymore because he's an excellent example of a Static Character, but think about it. Without Goku, Dragon ball just wouldn't be dragon ball anymore. It's just that Goku is mostly static because he already had his development in the first dragon ball series, the character development is mostly directed towards all the characters around Goku and how he affects them and how they react to him. It's mostly the characters other than Goku that gets character development which that is what I like about Dragon ball a lot. Goku changes the lives of everyone around him.
@@zusfrankenstein8561 the Jedi, the crews of the various star ships of the the UFP’s Starfleet (mainly those aboard the multiple famous vessels named “enterprise”), a lot of classical western heroes like Alexander or Ceaser.
So no toku, or kaiju category..... big sad
Sharkzilla3000 I mentioned kaiju cause I’d love to have seen a Godzilla Kong comparison since it’s close to kong vs Godzilla
You can apply a lot of these to the Kaiju genre.
Example: Godzilla was originally enemies with Anguirus, Mothra, and Rodan, but now they are more often considered his nakama.
Omni Viewer true, what’s up my guy
I'd argue that MHA falls under the discussed kishotenketsu, as the central story revolves around two main themes, "how does a culture adapt to the loss of a central figure" and "how does the acquisition of a super power influence an already heroic yet powerless individual". Yes there is conflict, but much of the story is emphasizing the character's ideals rather than how many guys they can beat up.
@@Zimzilla99 just like fantasy and horror have an external conflict that drives the story, kaiju is a genre within Eastern storytelling. Godzilla comes out of the ocean, how does the populace of Tokyo react (or whomever is the main character (s) in the original Japanese movie). Genre is only a collection of common tropes. The storyteller is making a promise to the consumer that we will get these things in this genre. Example: Fantasy has magic, mythical races and or creatures, a grand quest. But the story structure is the same.
I'm sure kaiju stories are the same as any other Eastern story, following the same structure. It just has a much more noticable external force in the form of the monster.
I'm sure creative writing classes in Japan teach their students to write "literature" the way Western Creative Writing classes do. Why, literature? Because it gets us to understand basic plot structure.
I gotta hand it to you, you may not upload on a regular basis but when you do your videos are interesting, though provoking and overall well made.
You should check out his other channel First Edition. He does weekly live casts.
Glad you think so! Working on the next one now
The idea that intelligence would equal weakness is not western. It's American. In Europe intelligence is seen as something positive.
i would argue that the narrator is wrong to say that fake-light's intelligence puts him at the bottom of the social ladder. it's the absence of any other virtues that does this to him. the intelligence is not the problem, the other shortcomings are (insecurity, cowardice, lack of social graces etc). but assuming that intelligence=no other strengths is very american, indeed.
Eh, I'd argue that there has always been space for smart and capable protagonists in the American pantheon, despite the existence of the helpless scientist trope. This is particularly evident over the past two decades, during which our media has been entirely dominated by Marvel movies and the new era of high budget TV (West Wing, Sopranos, The Wire, Breaking Bad, GOT, Ozark, etc), all of which tend to center characters who are both tough and highly intelligent. Early in this period we also saw gargantuan franchises such as The Matrix and LOTR, as well as endless procedural dramas and international intelligence thrillers, all of which lionized the thinking man. So at best, the characterization is over two decades old.
Even still, it's not as if all of that came out of nowhere. Mainstream Americans had long celebrated the cool, calculating lone-wolf problem solvers from across the pond, whether a Sherlock Holmes or a James Bond. The former is the obvious archetype for the aformentioned procedurals, and US studios spent considerable time and effort trying to replicate the latter (Six Million Dollar Man, Macgyver, Night Rider, Mission Impossible.. although I don't think they really nailed it until Jason Bourne). Beyond all that, Star Wars (Luke, Yoda, Leia, Obi, Vader) was the king of the box office in both the 70s and 80s. So I'm not saying that there's no truth to it, but as with most things, there's more nuance than the stereotype would suggest.
Er, you heard wrong. Intelligence doesn't equal weakness in 'American' culture, it's just not as valued socially. That's very different.
Let's face it. When he says west here- he means American.
Europe is the the east, sorry to burst your bubble, pal
I remember going to a panel at an anime convention and asking why one of the older side characters wouldn't have been considered one of the more powerful out of the main playable characters (in theory). It's been a few years, so I may have lost some words here and there, but it stuck with me. I'm paraphrasing what the host gave as a two-fold answer:
1) In Japan, most anime takes place in the high school setting because that's thought to be the "time of your life" where you can make mistakes and have adventures before you enter the workforce.
2) Being on the "losing" side in WW2 instilled the notion of "we need to put more faith in our children rather than trying to hold down the country to the very last surviving child". This contrasts the "Clint Eastwood war hero" ideal in the US.
Mind you, I'm positively certain I've gotten some things wrong, but that was what came to mind when you mentioned the cultural approaches that Western vs Eastern storytelling takes.
Now I have to mentally chew on story structures from other countries as well.
Not that it isn't a good thing. I can always use some brain food to distract from the day.
What does WW2 have to do with anything? I’m severely confused what that has to do with internal struggles I’m esstern media?
No no! Wait! I want to ask more about that. I wasn’t exactly sure what Dinker was implying. I’m actuakky extremely curious about these points. I didn’t mean to imply harm
Could you please explain more about that?
No I’m actually curious, the language the guy used wasn’t specific or either I’m dyslexic
America was meant to help reconstruct japan and its country after the devastation it had caused.it was more of an apology sort of thing and it’s the reason why both nations are on good terms with each other to this day.
It’s still pretty crazy how it would’ve had an impact in a nations mentality. Do you think this is a good thing for a nation to want possibly forced peace like this or do you think the nation should try and grow from itself and learn how to move on? Do you think these affects should be reversed altogether? Is it a good or a bad thing for the Japanese like media to reflect these attitudes here and now?
Want them around? You do realize that Japan leads with most USA stationed troops at 55,000. That’s pretty ridicolous to have support for more troops than even the most loyal of allies.
I do agree that America has interfered in other nations in the past but it is by no means a bad country. During WW2 japan was with Hitler and Mousillini, 2 figures who were obsessed with global conquest and Japan wanted some of that pie
Actually Japan bombing of Pearl Harbor was THE REASON AMERICA ENTERED THE WAR IN THE FIRST PLACE. Although it wasn’t related to the atomic bombing, that was an unethical way to force the Japanese to surrender and prevent prolonging war and death. one bomb was going to be dropped but the emperor didn’t believe that a whole city could be bombed so wellll more genocide, completely unethical but that’s how history went.
I’m only asking that because I have a gripe maybe more so with anime manga with who trope-y it is and how a lot of the media is extremely similar to each other and is relying on twists to make itself different from each other. Like the whole isekai genre thing (which isn’t a genre it’s a fantasy trope that became heavily cliche) and yeah I was doing research into that
Note Re: wisdom and physical capability in western stories. We do typically have a wise mentor character - typically the coach in sports movies - but this character doesn't necessarily impart wisdom to the same degree that a character is enlightened in a Japanese martial arts film. The role of the coach is to tease out the potential of the athlete, enhancing their physical skills, but rarely makes a difference in the athlete's life beyond the changes that come along with victory. Meanwhile, in Japanese films, enhancing one's physical skill through training is usually also accompanied by an improvement of one's spiritual condition
Yes. To use your sport coach analogy, the coach only trains the athlete because he benefits from victory in reputation or financially; the mentor doesn't need to teach the student and he doesn't need to have any stakes beyond training the student. The western story will favour teaching the main character physical strength and application of power; while the eastern story will favour mental fortitude and proper application of technique. The one teaches power to overcome physical obstacles, the other teaches inner courage and grace to bear them.
Sports movies represent a small niche which only appeals to a certain audience. (I've never willingly watched one in my entire life.) LD was talking about in broad terms, generalizing Western vs. Eastern storytelling. Can you give more than one example outside of sports movies?
They're called a Paragon in western literature. A character that has already reached their peak, in whichever field, and helps to guide and mentor the protagonist. Ie Gandalf, Obi-Wan, Dumbledore, etc
AAAAAND... there is Gandalf. And in a lot of folklore ( at least here in the Balkans ) the hero has strenght... but misses wisdom.. and that is what is given to him, and sometimes that is done directly by some old hag. This is an over-simplification... but I think it does make a solid point. The bridge lies in the fact that the whole world was and is on a spiritual journey of sorts, even if some are not aware. We all try to find meaning, and that meaning is usually achieved through wisdom ( even though that is not completely true... as wisdom offers perspective, not necessarily answers )
Now I see why long-running series are so different between the West and the East, and especially why the Eastern equivalent of comics don’t have to rely on reboots. It’s also interesting to think of game design, as the lead level designers of the modern Mario games have explicitly stated to use kishotenketsu for each level. It seems like it’s a fantastic technique for creating a powerful episodic format.
I miss the riddles you put up before the start of videos. Great video though, Literature Devil.
I may bring them back
A Japanese adaptation of Star Wars that successfully retold the same plot would likely keep the Death Star under wraps, with the reveal being *ten* and the battle of the death star being *ketsu.*
Percival917 this makes me want an anime version of star wars
ten what?
@@Lumen_571 there is the manga of Starwars
PLOT TWIST: Star Wars is a retelling of The Hidden Fortress by Akira Kurasawa.
Seriously.
@@appa609 Did... Did you even watch the video? 17:14
Here's an interesting point for debate- perhaps it's not only the philosophical differences that contribute into the difference in western and eastern storytelling.
Historical differences also shape the way we told stories. I think in the west the external struggle that you mentioned could also have stemmed from the amount of times A country has been invaded. For instance my country the UK, we've been invaded many, many times, the Saxons, the Normans, the Romans, the Vikings, etc (not specifically in that order). And it's the same across most of Europe too. I think that external struggle was ever present in the West, however in the East, countries like Japan, they were in isolation for a very long time, so the external threat was never there, so they turned the focus on to an internal struggle for enlightenment.
Thoughts?
... Wait. You're right.
So history does serves a purpose, huh.
Thats not entirely true... Since there was no "Japan" or "China" back centuries but instead a bunch of states fighting for control (ZhanGuo and Sengoku periods). This is highly evident in China's history where it was first united under 1 state in 200 BC and since then has broken up and reformed under different names. Many of chinese literature were written about these warring periods such as "The Three Kingdoms" or "FengShenYanYi". So the history might not be as important as you believe.
@@timlee5711 I think that your point actually strengthens their argument. Rather than the commonality of invasions that took place in Europe, the extended periods of internal conflict (civil war, essentially) and the struggles for unification are exactly why eastern storytelling focuses so much more on internal struggles. I'm not as familiar with Chinese history but in Japan, every faction during the Sengoku Period knew they were all Japanese and that the end goal was to unify the country under a single banner (with the blessing of the emperor, who was remarkably absent throughout all of this). "Through unity and the quelling of internal conflicts will the country achieve harmony" and all that jazz. As such, the idea of unifying the country became internalized into dealing with the internal struggles inside oneself.
the thing is that it is completely wrong to think that western stories have no inner conflicts. this is simply pure bullshit.
Just as it's wrong to think Eastern stories have no external conflicts. Both stories have both. But they each start (and therefore end up) at a different place. Stories universally are about change. But Western starts at an external conflict to prompt internal change to then deliver an external solution. Eastern starts at an internal conflict to prompt external change to arrive to an internal solution.
They're both really the same thing. Just a different perspective and way of looking at it, which is interesting.
Picard: Leader
Data: Smart Guy
Riker: Lancer
Worf: Big Guy
Troi: Heart
Yup. That's a pretty good example.
I tried applying those to Voyager but it was hard. Seven of Nine is the Smart Guy, the Lancer, the Big Guy and the Heart xD
You just helped me realize something incredible. There's a story I'm working on where I wouldn't really say there's a central conflict, more so a central problem (except I didn't know it was a problem until you helped me see it was). I've been having so much trouble charting it (trying to see where the plot goes) because I didn't really have that one central conflict; and thanks to your video, I realized what was going on. I had unwittingly plotted out a Kishotenketsu story but I was trying to apply Western storytelling philosophy to it. It's hilarious because I got the idea for the story from an anime and, somehow, I stumbled on the structure without knowing it, only to find myself stuck. Another thing is that the struggle of my character is almost exclusively internal. I suppose that was another huge roadblock for me. How do I move along with an internal conflict if the structure I'm using favors external conflict? But now? I think you've led me onto something incredible. A synthesis if you will. Like you say, these structures overlap; and I'm now seeing the potential for something greater. You've unlocked the doors to a world of possibilities I didn't even know existed.
Thanks, man.
This is my experience as well, I’m so glad I learned about this structure and have watched a few vids on it. I’m curious how your story has been doing with it.
Western- the world needs a hero.
Eastern- the hero needs a world.
Been waiting for this, thanks for all the hard work.
Basically: Kitchen Nightmare US and Kitchen Nightmare UK.
WHERE'S THE LAMB SAUCE?????
@@user-uj4os7pk2g WHERE IS THE LAAAAMB SSAAUUUUUCE?!?
@@user-uj4os7pk2g It's in Hell's Kitchen.
@@malcolm_in_the_middle I facepalmed.
I think you hit on something very important with mentioning the driving theologies/religions of the East and West in that Eastern religion tends to deal with aligning the individual to a cosmic harmony (often expressed as collectivism/"My friends are my power") while Western paganism focused on the champion (individual who asserts/tests his will against nature/society, e.g: Beowulf vs. Grendel), something that still bled into western literature even with the rise of Judeo-Christian influence. You point to Catholicism as pushing a "protagonist (us) vs. antagonist (Satan)" conflict, but I feel that misses the more simple, yet more grand, narrative: Good vs. Evil. It isn't about the protagonist aligning with the universe, it is the forces of good, often embodied in the protagonist, overcoming the forces of evil, embodied in the antagonist. If the individual sallies forth in virtue, then he may correct the Goliath.
And yet, if we go back to Biblical literature, we get stories like Cain and Abel, Job, and the Exodus. These are stories about the deficiency of humanity in contrast to divinity and the need for careful self discipline and introspection. These stories very often deal with internal conflicts and a need for spiritual discipline vs. assertion of will. The modern fruit of this literary spirit can be found in works like Crime and Punishment or Till We Have Faces.
All that to say, I think (but am not certain) your phrasing of the Western external conflict focus has stronger roots in vestigial pagan warrior cultures than Judeo-Christian beliefs.
I beg to differ. There have been many "pagan" or native structures of belief and with every era those beliefs changed as well from Elemental gods to the now more known Asa and such and then again they changed with the era of conflict with christianity (introducing more elements of hope or contrasting elements to the christian faiths as well as becoming more contrarian in their own mythology, introducing characters like Baldr etc).
For the sake of argument, behind every "quest" in the saga and Edda etc there is usually also the trickster or the longterm play of the gods and the forces of time (which is often shown as the absolut force above all, the cycle, swastika, life, End etc) and in some even just humor, geneology or simply tales of longterm generationspanning consequences and cycles of the year. The pagan "blade" of sunlight (=spring) tale changed with time into the Story of Siegfried of Xant, which is more a tale about fate and consequence of actions which is NOT in the grasp of the hero.
TL;DR : It is (a bit more) complicated then boiling it down to a sentence, since it all moves with time.
@@t.k.5972 First, allow me to apologize if I misunderstand your contention. You've obviously put some time and thought into this reply, but I'm afraid I'm a little fuzzy on what the "it" of your TL;DR is.
That said, if your point is that not all "pagan"/native cultures are the same or well codified/preserved, then yes: it was rather lazy and irresponsible of me to use such blanket terms. I should have specified that this style of external conflict reminds me more of Greco-Roman mythology and literature (although there are notable exceptions, of course, such as Sophocles *Antigone*) and Scandinavian/Norse mythology meant to preserve or encourage the warrior spirit. Not to say the East didn't produce their own fair share of conquerors, but the western "my good vs. their evil" just reminds me more of Greek epics than Biblical literature.
However, as I haven't conducted any official research on the matter, your guess is probably as good as, if not better than, mine. Thanks for being willing to dialogue and deepen the conversation, though! I appreciate the expanded examples you brought to the table.
Have a good day!
No I agree. The problem is he’s trying to make too many generalizations to make a point
25:50 The story does not fall apart!
If The Empire was "just" and not the central conflict, then the central conflict would have to stem from The Evil Rebels enacting a plan to disrupt The Just Empire (or an entity of it) in such a way that it would further their evil goals.
They would be the antagonists in films such as:
-Die Hard
-True Lies
-Speed
-Team America
-Air Force One
-etc.
Also, due to the vast difference in power between The Evil Rebels and The Just Empire, the former would have to steal or build a super weapon that could pose a significant enough threat to the latter if they even hope to succeed.
Luke as our main character would still be dragged into the conflict by The Rebels, and he would still become the Hero. However, he would fight for The Just Empire and maintain the status quo by defeating The Evil Rebels and their super weapon.
Now lets say The Evil Rebels remain the protagonists and The Just Empire the antagonists.
The Rebels would be like the villainous protagonists of:
-Dog Day Afternoon
-Scarface
-Amadeus
-American Psycho
-Fight Club
-Bonnie and Clyde
-Wolf of Wall Street
-There Will Be Blood
-The Usual Suspects
-etc.
If Luke remains The Hero of The Just Empire in this scenario, he becomes an antagonist and can no longer be the main character. However if he joins The Evil Rebels like in the original, he remains a protagonist and the main character. In this scenario, he would have to use the super weapon against The Just Empire as he would be a villain.
*T L D R*
Western Media is infatuated with a Just Society being challenged by evil groups and people, good citizens getting caught in the crossfire, the lone hero who embodies the just society, and who rises up to stop said evil and maintain the Just Society.
Also, The Star Wars Sequels are complete garbage.
You've just replaced one central conflict with another. Which is LD's point, that you *need* a central conflict for the story to work.
@@TheRedHaze3 You really do not. See the entirety of realist literature.
True Lies! My man.
*WHO'S YOU'RE DADDY AND WHAT DOES HE DO!?*
I live in the US, and I was tought that every story fallows the same structure. That every story has an exposition, an inciting incident, a rising action, a climax, a falling action, and a resolution. That every story fallows the structure of the Freytag Pyramid. Sometime during highschool, I started writeing a book. However, I was finding that my books structure was not exsactly the same as the Freytag Pyramid.
it was looking more like this ___________________________/\_
/\
/ \
then like this __/ \__
I was starting to feel discourge, like I was writeing it the wrong way. But after watching this video I relized that my writeing style more resembles Slice-of-lifes, then the traditonal western writeing stlye. And that it is ok.
It is ok to write in a stlye that is differnt then the one you were tought in school. That it is ok to write in an eastern stlye, when you live in the west, or vice-versa. Write in any stlye you wish to. Becase all stlyes are valid and none of them are "the wrong way to write".
I had this problem as well. I grew up learning about the writing structure and for years I didn't question it. But then I got into anime and eventually other world media (Bollywood, Cdramas, Kdramas..etc). All the while I was trying to create my own world and characters. But then I spent years wondering why my stories didn't fit the Western structure I was taught. I would try to write via the structure and I could never make my stories go. (Or at least rarely) It was frustrating. I felt I had so many ideas but I couldn't seem to write them. And the ones I did were very few. But I couldn't figure out the problem.
But then I learned about the Japanese writing structure just a few years ago and it opened my eyes to A. There was another writing structure in the world!! and 2. More importantly, 99% of my writings that I managed to get out of myself over the years(via Blood, Sweat and Tears, btw...) just happened to follow the Eastern style. And I didn't even know that style existed at the time!!
Now, since finding that you can write a story without conflict being the central theme, I have a sense of relief. Like less pressure for me because clearly trying to write the Western structure, is hard (and might could say next to impossible for me). Apparently I care more about the characters and internal conflict than the plot and external conflict.
And frankly after watching years of stuff getting blown up or cars flipping over in movies for no good reason, I'm going to need something more interesting than that to capture my attention.....
Also don't forget: sometimes is a tree just a tree
Perhaps there isn't necessarily a "wrong way to write", but there absolutely IS a wrong way to spell. You should really learn to actually spell properly if you aspire to being a writer, because between your myriad mistakes, I could scarcely focus on what you were trying to say...
@@JulesThePsion , thanks for the feedback
I had similar confusion, my stories have coherent plots but they didn't neccessarily follow the structure people said stories have to. And people still LIKED my stories. I often got comments that it did feel different, but they really enjoyed it. and that i had interesting casts of characters AND their interactions with each other.
some of my stories don't have a clear conflict. Some do, but there's underlying situations going on anyway that would've just taken the story somewhere else. I can remove A "central conflict" and still have a secondary major issue send characters on a similar path - or completely different.
i often felt bad for not having a villain, or having extensive casts or multi-POV.
i think i combined a bunch of different styles. I grew up on western tv alongside east european influences, and then the past ten years have been heavily inundated with japanese film/anime/literature... so now it all makes sense lol
who on earth decided that there can only be one valid way anyway? ... the more i think about it, the creepier/weirder that gets. it's creative writing. *aggressively circles "creative"*
I would challenge your position on intelligence in Western storytelling. I would argue that the idea of balance in soul and body is present in both cultures. In western culture, it comes from balance of the humors from the Greeks, later interpreted into Christianity, and in eastern culture, it comes from Buddhism. It's valued highly in both cultures, you don't see anyone being praised for being stupid in either stories and strength in both kinds of stories usually not enough. I would also suggest that intelligence is seen as dangerous without self-doubt in western canon and also dangerous without spiritual enlightenment in eastern. I believe religions defined the way people understood the world in ancient times and thus they were mayor influences on culture and storytelling. And religion is really a description of your surroundings, thus different geographical starts shaped different kinds of storytelling.
Yeah, that’s who thought. Most American media seems to be about over coming oneself. As a Catholic, we believe you cannot do do anything without God, but with him we can do anything
Thank you for this. Finally someone notices the flaws. Primarily I think the author's knowledge is very superficial and he only introduces works that are convenient to his theory. However...
Take "nakama", for instance. One of the most renowned western classics is The Lord of the Rings. And guess what? The nakama are there. You have a party of nine companions who are highly loyal to each other and to their quest. Also their main goal is to throw a damn ring into a volcano. The main character is in conflict with no one at all - he even prevents several conflicts. And on top of it all, the story is very slow-paced and can savor the moment. Yet, it is in no way similar to the eastern way of writing. Well well well...
Take Jeffrey Deaver's books - they are of course criminal stories, but even then, he had a choice. He could introduce a macho bomberman who would go and shoot out everything he could. But he introduced... a disabled guy who can't do anything by himself, yet he is smart, resourceful... and freaking cool! And a woman who is by no means athletic and one of her best moves is to switch glasses during interrogation. Deaver's books are long, some of them read very slow, and yes, there is conflict, but that is again given by the genre.
On the contrary, take Japanese literature. Historically Ihara Saikaku, and now people like the Murakami brothers or any light novel author - they write books that are short, some of them very fast-paced, and especially in case of Murakami Haruki you have protagonists that are often alone, castaways who don't have the word nakama in their dictionary. Same with Osamu Dazai.
Problem is... the speaker here compares the wrong things. And let's face it - American mainstream movies are made for masses that don't have any demands. To compare them to the profound Japanese art or even to the Odyssey... that is very bold.
I would say there is a difference between eastern and western writing, but the speaker is not even close to understanding it.
@@MirwenAnareth It is also hard to compare current/modern/pomo storytelling because it is intertwined. For example, existentialism had taken a lot of inspiration from Buddism, because they tackle similar problems of existence. And similarly, anime had a lot of inspiration taken from western animation.
If you want to ask "Western vs Eastern Storytelling - What's the Difference?" question you need to at least address the history of literature, the history of technology, the political history or the history of language. History of literature so you would be able to compare the problems they tried to solve at the time. Political history so you would understand who tried to please who what resources were available. History of technology so you would understand how or who could tell stories to what audience and what stories could be told that way. And then language so you would understand the double meanings and symbolism and what rhyming schemes were appropriate. The human experience is such that it leads to similar stories because we have similar problems and the differences would be concerned with different resources we had, different technology, language, philosophy or political situation.
When speaking about Odyssey, for example, it's not appropriate to compare it to other stories without addressing that it's a record, a collection of oral traditional stories that were created hundreds of years before Homer was even born. Those stories originate from all over the place from Nothern Africa to the Middle East. It's a feature of old stories so I would guess it's similar in eastern sagas. And because most of our original stories were written not in isolation from the east it's hard to draw conclusions without going deeper into the ancient sagas and analyzing their context. It's not enough to say one is pro intellect and the other pro strength. Or one is plot-driven stories and the other character-driven stories. One focuses on inner conflict the other outer. There are enough counterexamples to make that explanation unconvincing. You need to go deeper look at religion, look at language, look at technology, look at the political situation and look at philosophy.
This video could be great if LD would have concentrated on how dramatic structure differs from the eastern dramatic structure. Because they are very similar and I would suggest that it kinda shows how similar problems have similar solutions and that makes sense.
A thing of interest to me is that the hero of the Odysseus doesn't actually get by on his strength very often whereas Sun Wukong really the man who we should see as the protagonist of the Journey to the West relies so heavily on it, sure he sometimes uses his intelligence but as above said that's generally to show that he isn't just strong. Meanwhile Odysseus main actions are intelligence based then you have him being stronger then the average man at the ending or in other parts throughout the series to show that yes he is a genius but he isn't just a genius he's also extremely capable and able to protect his family. So Greek has Hercules and Achilles who are akin to Sun Wukong and Oedipus and Odysseus who are more like Light Yagami.
Bah there was something else I wanted to add to this but well can't remember now.
That's why he says there's an overlap. I think he already presented one good question that, hypothetically, if a Western and an Eastern storyteller would try to answer: "How will your character/s tackle the conflict/s of the story you have in mind?"
Hmm this topic never crossed my mind. Thanks literature devil for bringing this up! I often found myself watching more and more anime and I always tell people these anime have amazing stories but I never knew why. The change in external and internal conflicts make fascinating stories. I hope more people will give shows like goblin slayer and one punch man a chance
wonderful video// I learn a lot!! thank you
Oh, thank you, I no longer need to call a group of heroes in an adventure a "party"
No problem lol
Still doesn't stop me from refering a bunch of murderhobos a party.
I still do. If I call a group of heroes "nakamas" it sounds strange. I speak portuguese (brazilian) and "Nakama" sounds like "Na cama" which means "in bed" for us.
I call my party in my game the coterie
Never noticed that your tie is off center. . . Now I can't stop noticing it.
this is the only video of his i've seen, I noticed it immediately and I love it :D
Thanks alot! Now I can't stop looking at it!
Que evil laughter
This bothered me the whole video
rip ocd
So where would Dostoyevsky stand given that he used his characters as avatars of contrasting ideas with the goal of seeing how they interact?
that's prob coz east europe isn't western :P ... white, but not western. i'm interested in trying to find a comparison of eastern europe to both western and east-asian narratives...
Russia culturally and historically speaking is far more associated with the west then the east however.
The whole east/west writing styles is more of a generalization.
I think the same,Nick
@@sharlene3819 Yes, the Russian realist literary movement is a big denominator of Russia being more in-line with the western school of storywriting.
Western know ONLY the awkward nerds...
Sherlock Holmes,Batman And Merlin: Am I a joke to you?
I think thats the reason why they are iconic
@@jaypeezulieta2146 no. devil is basing an opinion off of a stereotype
I could go on: Geralt, Ozimandias, Ironman, roschach, lex luthor And So on....
But I think they Are the second And third type 2)detective,inquisitor
3)Leader, general
They are adults, he's refering to the inteligent highschooler.
@@florin793 there are characters like that. Edward collins is one of them.
Personally, I believe that all truly masterful stories have external and internal conflicts. Take Inception. The external conflict is "Let's get inside this guy's head and convince him to change the course of a company," while the internal conflict is Cobb getting over his wife. The internal conflict wouldn't be possible without the external conflict, but the external conflict would be dull without the internal conflict. The same goes for Avatar: The Last Airbender (external = everything changing when the Fire Nation attacked, internal = "Aang has a lot to learn before he's ready to save anyone."), the Matrix (external = breaking free and fighting the Matrix, internal = spiritual awakening allegory), and Gone With the Wind (external = romance between Rhett and Scarlett, internal = "As God is my witness, I'll never go hungry again!"), to name a few. All of these are produced and marketed to Western audiences, but have a universal appeal. And universal appeal is what makes a true classic.
Nobody:
Literature Devil: Oh-Edipus
That's how you pronounce it
@@sabbathjackal Fo-E-nix for phoenix then? While many oe words are pronounced oh-e in English (poet) we pronounce greek 'oe' sounds as a short 'ee' (Phoebus, Phoenix, Foetus, Phoenician). Although there is a difference between british pronunciation (which uses 'e' for 'oe') and american (which prefers 'oh-e' for 'oe').
I thought, it's pronounced Ödipus. (with the ö similar to the o in "word")
He butchered Na-KA-ma. It was very distracting.
I was going crazy every time I head it
Wonder how John Wick would've played out en japanese.
There is a sort of personal question to John Wick that the movie does ask, its just that its sort of buried behind/tied into the major conflict of the story.
The question John Wick posses to his friend at the start of the film is the 'question' that the movie asks; is it possible for a person with such a checkered/bloody past to be a good person or seek redemption? This is the reason why the dog is important to him in the first movie and why there is a moment in the second movie (when he gets to Italy, right before he suits up again to kill the Italian Boss) where he has a moment of anger and anguish at himself and his situation. He left the life of violence behind and the second he steps back for a second and semblance vengeance; he's dragged back down into the world he left behind kicking and screaming the whole way. You could say that the answer to the question is there; "There is no way for man who used violence for gain can ever really run from it" but the movies continue to play that John is just trying to escape from the world he lived in and tries to give people chances to walk away.
It would be interesting to see how that would go down in a eastern perspective though and how that question would be answered by which director/writer/team.
@@Mariusweeddeath
>"There is no way for man who used violence for gain can ever really run from it"
With this you hit the nail on its head.
Jackie Chan would make it with a lot more soul-searching and a lot less guns.
Wuxia directors... would do the same, with a lot more rain and set in ancient china.
If a japanese guy directed it we would get a surprise box from "japanese-bubble-plastic-pop-song-video" to "John was haunted by the ghost of the dog who in real was his reincarnated wife"...
"who also killed all the bad guys like a real japanese ghost so that her husband didnt have to. But he has and in the end he dies and they spend eternity in hell".
And propably an anime.
I really want Takeshi Kitano directing it, and he's alos Wick.
AND NO GAIJIN!!! Except Watari.
Well, taking only the first movie into account?
More time before his wife's death, only hinting that he did something terrible for a living previously. Then the wife dies and we spend at least one 'typical day' of his new routine, showing how important his dog is to his stability. Then what was the inciting incident happens and about 30 minutes later, everyone responsible is dead and gone. The underworld backs off, since he is done. Now we spend the rest of our time with him as he tries to find a new balance. No one comes for revenge, because that's not important. What's important is establishing how John moves on. Be that with therapy, or art, or suicide. The question becomes "When your attempt to become a better person is destroyed, what do you do about it?" With assorted answers.
Interestingly, neither would answer the corollary to " is it possible for a person with such a checkered/bloody past to be a good person or seek redemption?" which is "Does such a person deserve redemption?"
@@@Sorain1
I think that it's the influence of western phylosophy and religion that changes the "Does he deserve" to a "Everyone deserves". I think that that is what let christianity spread in japan the first place.
Buddhism was all about the non-acting and letting it be, but christianity actually enforces the "be nice, do good" Love&Peace.
@@StonedDragons And kaiju (the bigger the better). And super sentai/tokusatsu elements. Would have been... beyond epic. :P
Wow, perfectly summarized!
You are exactly the person i needed to discover.
I've been running a D&D group for some of my clients (I'm a counselor training to be a psychologist)
and i was trying out different writing styles, applying the structure of kishotenketsu to story and non-player
characters makes a lot of sense for both my ASD (Autistic spectrum disorder) clients and also my high-anxiety
clients as it puts less pressure on them, it's less confronting.
Having a focus on internal conflict is exactly the premise for me making this group, the theory was that i could
foster positive growth in a controlled environment by giving the socially overwhelmed clients a "buffer" with the
character they are roll-playing, you re-affirmed a lot of what i was thinking about this storytelling style and gave me
some inspiration to work on!
Thank you sir, i look forward to becoming obsessed with your content ^_^
Interesting theory, I've also been interested in merging psychology and art in my own career possibly, and I'm just wondering if you were able to obtain useful findings from your theory. How's the group going?
Oh. So this is why I prefer anime and manga over most TV shows in movies that are produced here in the West. Neat!
If only Japan would create its own Anime MCU to compete with the one descending into darkness.
Bob is True watch a certain magical index series or fate stay night
@@jjdilla9848 I second this opinion.
There's MHA and OPM
read f/sn, they tell decontructive story of superhero genre
as for any media other than manga or anime. i think they wouldnt do a good job because of cultural reference. personaly i didnt like the japanese drama, movie or live action
Whilst I enjoy your content, I will say this is one video that somewhat misses the mark for one main reason - the exceptions being just as common as the rule. Eastern media has many famous stories in which the conflict is the driving force. As you brought Dragon Ball up in your video, that's a story in which each arc has been fully driven by the premise of the impending doom of the main threat as early as the Piccolo Daimao Arc. Other major examples within eastern pop-culture include every part of JoJo's Bizarre Adventure (with the slight exception of Part 4 and solid exception of Part 8), Legend of the Galactic Heroes, Fullmetal Alchemist, etc. On the flipside, you have just as many western stories focused on being character studies driven by internal conflicts, some of the most notable examples being the films Taxi Driver, Citizen Kane, 12 Angry Men, Raging Bull and a whole ton of novels from the 17-19th Century, such as most of Jane Austen's writing or Madame Bovary.
Whilst you could say that many of these could have had influence from the other culture's structure, let's look at some other classic epics of both cultures - The Iliad for the west and Romance of the Three Kingdoms for the east. The Iliad is almost entirely a character study examining Achilles and how he perceives war, the novel ending quite a while before the end of the Trojan War. Meanwhile, Romance of the Three Kingdoms is entirely focused on detailing the conflict of the Fall of the Eastern Han/Three Kingdoms Era from start to finish and, whilst spending time to detail each of the characters' personalities, treats this as secondary to the actions taking place.
That said, I'd say that the idea of there being a narrative structure associated primarily with either east or west is a somewhat narrow view. It overall more comes down to the writer as an individual and their purpose for their story - being whether they intended it to be more of a conceptual piece or character study.
Good point. I always am wary of people that try to put extremely large groups of people into boxes and say "This is what these people are like and this is what those people are like." It's better to judge things individually, although cultural context has _some_ significance.
I agree. Though he said in the video that he didn't mean to say one style is better than the other, he did heavily imply that Eastern storytelling is always more clever and deep, and thus better, and Western stories are nothing but bumbling, stupid and superficial cliche storms. Most comments here explicitly say that.
The video is very interesting but something about sticks out like a sore thumb. It really feels like he's belittling Western storytelling.
Thanks I was looking for this comment. Well stated and backed up. This video is nothing but nonsense I’m afraid.
@@zak9399 Generalizations are just that- generally true. Not always true. Not even most of the time, but rather often enough to be recognized as such.
I think stories that fuse elements of the two are the best. I don't want to just have one character and a bunch of enemies that he conquers, I'd prefer multiple protagonist characters where minor conflicts can arise in how they approach the main goal. And personal growth or change can then also occur in the pursuit of the main conflict.
Shadows of the Apt is one of my favorite books series, and the main plot definitely drives the story. But all the many characters actions make sense and their personalities change over the course of the books. I mean, the author's a libtard and I think at least one of the books wasn't entirely necessary to exist, but its still a great narrative with a main conflict that doesn't just resolve, but evolves until the end.
Awesome video, my dude.
Also, did anyone else feel a minor stab of impatience every time he mentioned Journey to the West? Like, each time he mentioned something in the story or one of the characters, I'd see it as one of Red's drawings.
15:45 The Divine Comedy and The Canterbury Tales are also pilgrimage-based stories, though.
This makes me remember that episode in censored gaming, where Pokemon was censored in the west, in a funny way. I remember that episode where they refer to onagiri(rice balls) as jelly donuts in the west😂 Anyways, animes like One Punch Man and My Hero Academia, shows that even Japan is catching up to the western hero troupe. In fact, I like those animes. I could probably say that Japan has out west the current west, when it comes to superhero storytelling.
I don't know if you can add the Hanmas from "Baki the Grappler" in that list.
Add the Classic manga Battle Angel Alita.
Yeah, it's kind of amazing that the West continuously fails to write compelling stories for Superman, while the East can crank out One Punch Man after Trigun all day. Video basically explains why. When your story is about the strongest man in the world, it's hard to write compelling conflicts for him without undermining what makes him unique (being the strongest). In Kishotenketsu, you can look at the personal ramifications of being the strongest man in the world
I did never feel like Deku needs to become the strongest Hero rn
@@Kumathebear726 I mean, Superman is the best-selling American comic of all time and one of the most iconic Western superheroes of all time.
You can write a compelling Superman story, you just need to be an actually good writer, which is, funnily enough, the requirement for writing *any* compelling story.
I feel like i opened my narrative third eye watching this.
Now your astral self just needs to reach out and touch the infinite? :P
2points:
1)The structure difference to me isn't an opposition. The two can be reconciled.
2)Kishotenketsu sounds like the structure of how to write a conflict.
*_As an aspiring writer myself, I'm glad the East wasn't infected with feminist fiascos while the West got suffered with their "antics". I wish the Occupy Wall Street and Gamergate shouldn't have never happened in the first place. This is where the SJW culture is all started._*
This video has been really inspiring for me, funnily enough I've never tried to write with a formula other than the triangle despite writing fiction for a good 7 years. I'd love to see more videos on different structures/tropes and how they effect storytelling, I think it would benefit writers by expanding their ideas on how a story can be told and result in a lot of unique concepts.
Western society = individualistic
Wester religion = collective
Easter society = collectivist
Eastern religion = individualistic
Interesting look into the different ideas of roles for main and side characters throughout storytelling in both parts of the world, over the years. And movies!
One big different I've seen in storytelling between Eastern and Western stories -- at least from amateur (students) to professionals (Murakami) -- comes from content and style.
Eastern writers tend to be more poetic, wax poetically, and be more slice of life. Things are flashy, romantic, dream like.
Western writers tend to be more based on prose, focus on plot, and thus be more journey focused. Things are more practical, believable, material.
I can see these patterns throughout nearly every genre. It might have more to do with language and how one is raised, or manners and cultural belief. Now, anime and manga has a huge impact on storytelling, especially dialogue; much different than how we see that in Western comics (or comics to western animation & movies.) Which would get quite confusing, especially when we look at poor movie adaptation.
Interesting. One thing I can think of that might have influenced this difference, at least a little, might be Samurai culture. Poetry played a part - as I believe it was a tradition to write a death poem before they expected to die. Romantic prose seems to have been part of the creative foundation - at least in Japan.
@@LiteratureDevil There is also a sense of higher purpose or meaning in stories in Eastern storytelling. I compare the live-action Casshern vs the live-action Gantz films. They both focus on the idea that good is subjective, and what you perceive as bad might be based on (wrong) perception and/or (wilful) ignorance. What starts out as a relatively simple story becomes more layered and nuanced towards the end and both ends with very profound commentary on the message the movies tried to convey through the visual medium.
This is one of the things I don't like about anime, lol.
Circe as a magical girl... You wouldn't happen to be playing a little game called "Fate/Grand Order" would you?
She's a caster. But she ain't no magical girl.
@@spinyslasher6586 Not a Japanese one but definitely an RPG one
Hey, I've been following the channel for a while and love the analysis of drama and character development. I'd like to suggest some commentaries on Attack on Titan. The female characters are amazing and the dramatic structure is awesome.
Funny you should say that lol. I've actually been planning on returning to the topic of female characters. Script is actually pretty far along.
@@LiteratureDevil no ad watching for this video wish ur channel didn't came to the largest TH-cam consumer region india
East in a American mind equates to china and japan which are so much influenced and deep-rooted in indic civilization and its literatures like largest and oldest topics like mahabharata ramayana life's of buddha etc..
Still no use Americans still don't understand the largest asians are south asians which is the older than Chinese civilization and had influence over entire central and southeast asia
One thing I can definitely think of, at least with how most things are now is that Eastern storytelling is allowed to have fun where as Western has to preach and teach with fun being secondary. In My Hero Academia, its about school kids with super powers learning to be great super heroes and One Punch Man is about an absurdly powerful man dealing with the boredom of not being challenged due to his power. There can be morals here but the major point is fun, we get cool super battles and unique and creative displays of power, not preachy political bullshit. In a lets say Mocking Bird from Marvel comics, its about a female super hero dealing with sexism, rewriting the established canon to make her world seem sexist so the story can preach about sexism and feminist ideology, Female Furies from DC is similar with a group of female characters fighting against a sexist patriarchy of Apokolips and this is meant to be political and reflect real life things as opposed to a fun story. Even some indie comics still seem to be about politics like the one Mark Waid is doing about school shooting victims getting super powers, I wonder what inspired that...
Eastern stories can have fun, they are their own thing. MHA isn't some sort of allegory for law enforcement or terrorist attacks at schools, its about super powered kids in a world nearly completely filled with super powered beings studying and working towards becoming great super heroes which is the most popular occupation of that world. OPM isn't about depression or being discriminated against over your appearance or a privileged class of people being valued higher solely for what they are instead of what they do, its about an insanely strong guy who became a hero for fun, trained way too hard and became too powerful so now he can't have fun being a hero because its too easy and there is no stakes. Both these series are incredibly popular but if they were written by Western Writers or adapted you can bet the new writers would not shy away from making some political statement. It wouldn't be in the background, it wouldn't just be the icing on a deliciously interesting story, it would be a major focus, it would be trying to teach you or preach to you and you are expected to like it.
Eastern stories, at least manga and anime which I am focusing on, have to get by on their own merit. They aren't being written to appease a certain group (at least not a political group), they want to and need to appeal to everyone and they try to. Western, which I am focusing on comics, can get away with shitty writing if they pander to a certain crowd. It doesn't matter if the plot makes no sense, that it retcons and destroys beloved characters or has disgusting implications, its pandering to a popular political group so all the story flaws don't matter in the STORY.
Eastern doesn't try to pander, at least not to the extreme of Western, it has a story it wants to tell and it tells it because the writer wants to tell it. Western has to pander or at least feels like it does because every writer feels like they will be some powerful visionary when all they are doing is writing up a funny book about grown adults in spandex using fantastical powers or showcasing impossible physical feats. A lot of writers over here have lost any passion for story telling and instead just want to be political and sadly it doesn't even feel like a genuine attempt to do something they see as good and more so to spite opposition or to make themselves look good. I don't get that when I see Eastern stories, manga, anime, etc. Maybe its different in Japan but for me as an American, I just see them trying to tell a fun story and if its meh or bad, its because of the story flaws, not because they buried the plot in some meaningless political message.
What is the difference? One allows itself to have fun and be creative, the other follows trends and tries to pander to make itself look good. Its not true across the board but it really seems that way.
I agree with this. One of the best thing about Western works is that they tell a mature message, but the flaw is that they become too preachy. On the other hand, Eastern storytelling is ideal for escapism and full of fun, but fails at executing a good theme/underlying message.
Ideally, one would want to mix these elements so that the reader can be immersed and intellectually stimulated, but not completely driven out of their fantasy. What the West and East have both lost over the years, (outside of a few exceptions) is the idea of subtly. However, if you bring the two together, they balance each other. The underlying message ends up buried by the more fantastical Eastern style, making the story especially dynamic in regards to both its characters and its plot. Therefore, no room for political crap, because such preaching would completely shatter the story structure, pacing and immersion.
West is also losing creativity though. Since things are aiming to be more political, stories are becoming even weaker and redundant than they already are. The publishers know these shitty formulas sell and encourage writers to follow creativity killing outlines so they can make a profit. Never forget that bad publicity is still publicity. It's still free advertisement and that boosts sales.
@MinutemanSam Yep. Makes sense to me, but that doesn't make me any less annoyed. That's why I stick largely to the indie market when it comes to books, games, etc.
I know you talked about the biggest 'issue' with Western Storytelling, namely that everything revolves around the plot and conflict. Which is why there's 'Chokov's Gun', to set up something to be used later in the plot. But I feel you overlooked one of the major flaws of Eastern Storytelling. Namely that since it focuses more on the Spirital than the Physical, it's much more prone to Deus Ex Machinas, plotholes, and other stuff to force their point and to just accept it, even if it isn't believable.
A great example of this is Western vs Eastern fighting. Where with Western, things are more 'Realistic' in terms of damage. Someone gets shot in the arm, they aren't going to be using that arm for a while. Someone gets stabbed, that wound will still be there and effect how they fight. But with Eastern, the physical limits don't matter. A great example of this is the concept of 'Willpower'. Where a Hero in Eastern Anime like Bleach, Naruto, One Piece, and so on would be beaten horribly in a one sided fight, unable to even touch the enemy at all, and beaten till they are exhausted, left on the floor bleeding, suffering many wounds. But then through sheer 'Willpower' They will stand back up. Their wounds will not be effecting them. And they will suddenly be on par, and even stronger and better then the villain now, when it makes no logical sense.
One Piece's first real major fight, Luffy vs Rob Lucci, is a great example of this. Even with Luffy's new power boost and upgrade, Rob Lucci is BETTER than him in every catagory. He's stronger, smarter, has more endurence and so on. He easily beats Luffy again and again and again. But every single time, Luffy always stands back up through sheer willpower to not lose. Even tho he's weaker, he starts using the EXACT same attacks, only this time they actually hurt Rob where as before they didn't. Not because Luffy got Stronger, or Rob got weaker, or anything. But just because.
One Piece is a great example where Logic has no meaning, and Deus Ex rains supreme. And while that can fun once, it can also get kinda boring cause you know that no matter what, Luffy IS going to win. You don't know how, but he WILL Win. Luffy NEVER Loses, unless winning would upset the plot of the show. He effectively has built in Plot Armor. And that isn't good storywriting. Because how can we cheer for Luffy's victories, when they are just handed to him because he can't lose. Luffy, through out One Piece, has NEVER Trained, except during the 2 year time skip. That was the FIRST and ONLY Time that Luffy has ever Trained in anything. And yet, from the first episode, up to just before that Time Skip, Luffy is constantly getting stronger, fighting stronger enemies, going through strong conflicts. He goes up, and up, and up in the world of Strength... without ever training. Just through sheer willpower to beat the next enemy.
It creates great fight scenes or interesting characters. But the writing as a whole? It's not very good. Take the example you used at 17:35 for Eastern Storytelling structure. In a real Eastern Story, the murderer would most likely be a highly trained and deadly assassin, and yet the Father, with no training, no weapons other than the pepper spray, and not even the element of suprise, would STILL end up defeating/killing the highly trained, highly equipped Master Assassin, through any damaging or normally killing blows that the Father would have suffered, all cause the Father wanted to avenge his family and that spirital nature of a 'good deed' gave him the power to live.
We like the underdog winning against conflicts. But only if it's believable. When you have to Suspend your disbelief to get the plot going, is one thing. A package just falling out of a truck at the right moment for the Main Character to get it? By pure 'Luck'? That's ok, that COULD happen, a 1 in a million chance. But to RESOLVE Conflicts by Suspending your Disbelief? That's not the same. Having a Level 1 character, fight and kill a lvl 100 character would NEVER be Believable, no matter the situation or Deus Ex or luck.
But with Eastern Storytelling, Deus Ex and suspension of Disbelief is pretty much a requirement and staple for most of it. Using the story with the Monkey King and 3 others at 5:30 as an example, you even mentioned it took DIVINE INTERVENTION for the 'Enemies' to become 'Allies'. The Good Guys didn't win them over with logic, talking, or having the enemies join to kill them when they had the chance and grew to be friends or anything like that. It took a Deus Ex, and Suspending your Disbelief of reality for it to work out.
And that, to me, is a very big major flaw with Eastern Storytelling. Cause when A + B = 42, and not C, then why does A and B matter? You can replace them with anything, and still have the answer be 42. Using Journey to the West again, because it took Divine Intervention, does it matter that the 2 Main Good Guy Characters where who they are? Did it matter that the 4 guys were fighting? Cause at the end of the day, no matter how the 4 people were going to interact, there would be Divine Intervention. So nothing before that point matters.
Take a look at Death Note as an example that doesn't have that problem. Light does what he does in reaction to what others do to stop him. As you pointed out, without L the story could still go on, and the 'enemy' could be replace with anyone else. But while the story would change, it would still be Light does soemthing, the enemies react and do something, and cause of that Light does something. One action, believably leads to the next logical action.
But what if in Death Note Light wrote down L's real true name, and then L didn't die. No logical reason given, L just happened to be immuned to the Death Note, or had Divine Protection, or just sheer willpower was able to fight off the heart attack and chains of compulsion from the Death Note and lived. But magically L has a weapon on him and Light decided to just shoot L in the head and the story goes on. It would make no logical sense, would it? Both cause no one should be immune or survive the Death Note, and cause L just happened to have a weapon on him that one single time, and cause Light never actually kills using a weapon with his own hands. Because a Deus Ex happens, another Deus Ex happed to resolve it, creating 2 plotholes in the story and making the character, out of character.
In Death Note, everying Light does is in believable reaction to what L does, which is a believable reaction to what Light did. A+B+C=D. But that's a RARE thing in Eastern Storytelling. Which is why Death Note is so highly loved, compared to say Bleach, which has so many Plotholes, it has plotholes, in plotholes, to explain away other plotholes. Every single fight with the main character of Bleach, the Main character wins EVERY single one of them, with a Deus Ex.
It's the same with Naruto, a show that in the beginning, as in the first 7 or so episodes with the Zabuza Conflict, the story was grounded into reality. Character was kinda like Magic, but it had limits and laws. Lightning beats Water which beats Fire. It was a world set up where you had to be intelligent in how you approuched conflict, where even children can be full grown train assassins if the children were smarter and used their tools and jutsu's better. Then the Manga and Anime said 'Yeah, fuck that shit' and through out Logic and just how a bunch of people with plotarmor that Won a fight, just cause they were straight up stronger, better, or the writers just said so. Just watch the first few episodes of the Original Naruto show, then watch the episode with the real Madara Uchiha. Where Madara isn't the smarted, or the best at fighting, he is simply just Stronger, Faster, got Plotarmor, and literally has a unique super abilitiy no one else has that's unbeatable, can't be defended against, and can do literally anything the writers want it to.
Plotholes, unbelievable characters, abilities, weapons, or characters that straight up go against the very lore or how the Manga's world was setup. And it's seen as a GOOD thing. Naruto is loved by most in the world, even tho it's objectively a badly written story.
That's the Failure of Eastern Storytelling. It relies HEAVILY on Plotholes, Deus Ex, and just accepting when something happens, even tho believably it shouldn't happen.
Ps. Sorry for the long, ranting wall of text. Tho I hope at least some people read it, even if they don't agree with it.
That's why I'm aiming to combine the fantastical/epic, spiritual nature of Eastern storytelling with the grounded realism and characters of Western storytelling. Like I said in a previous comment, I think it would be for the best if more authors could combine the two types since they are balanced in such a way as to cover each other's flaws.
However, very few writers I've met are heavy enough plotters to manage such a workload. I don't think combining these elements is something a prancer could pull off well without being throughly experienced in their craft. And the majority of those who are experienced are already sucked into the mainstream publishing industry, forced to write the same marketable crap.
@@martyr_lightsilver1833 Wheel of Time is sort of exactly that. The elements of the world is inspired by eastern mythological concept while characters are based on western ones.
@@Amin-fo6ci Yeah, which while I will admit, is refreshing, succumbs to the problems of the long running shounen effect, where it takes too long for things to progress. Admittedly though, the pay off was worth it because I do fucking love the last book.
@Youlo King "but the Lucci vs luffy fight is more about the symbolism rather the outcome"
That is kinda my point. It's about the Spiritual, the Sumbolism, and NOT about the Reality of the situation.
Luffy won against Rob, even tho he was weaker and in reality would NEVER win, because the writers are forcing the issue and saying that the Ideals that Luffy believe in are BETTER than the ones that Rob believe in. In this case, that it's better to be Free, even if you commit crimes, than it is to face the Justice of the Law.
Cause as much as you think it's 'Wrong', the Law, even if a stupid corrupt Law, is still THE LAW. And Ultimately Robin broke it and then escaped Justice.
The Writer is pushing a specific Ideal, And because of that... Well that Ideal can never lose, right? It can never be wrong, right? We've actually got great examples to show how BAD that line of thinking is.
Namely, we have SJWs in Reality, who break the laws, who destroy, hurt, and harrass, people for not having the same ideals as them.
And in Fictional Storytelling, we have Marvel's SJW Woke Superheroes, like Kamala Kahn I think is how you spell her name. The NOT first Muslim Superhero, who is all about Feminism. Have you ever sat down and read her stories? Or watched reviews on them? It's a character built on an Ideal, and then forced to win every comflict through Deus Ex and being a Mary Sue, to force those Ideals to be seen as the better and correct Ideals.
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Symbolism and Ideals are something to believe in, yes. But if your Symbolism is 'FORCED' into Winning, even tho is Reality it Fails, then is it actual a good thing? If it can't even work realistically in a FAKE Fantasy Setting, how can it work practically in Real Life?
In a real life setting, does it matter WHY that Luffy attacks Rob, when in the eyes of everyone, they just see someone attacking a official government police officer who has done nothing wrong except follow the Law? Even if Luffy is the best and more justified reason, it doesn't matter the second he breaks the law.
Again, looking at reality, SJWs say things that, realistically if believable, would kinda be useful and nice. Such as Equality of Race and Sex. But then we see them attacking, harrassing, and destroying the life of innocent people, because they don't believe in SJW's Ideals. It no longer matters how 'Just' or 'Good' the SJW's Message is, cause they are now the bad guys, they are breakin the law, they are WRONG, and thus their IDEALS must be wrong too.
It's the same for Luffy. Luffy holds the ideal of Freedom. But he actively attacks and KILLS Innocent Law Enforcements just doing their job of stopping a CRIMINAL. He has destroy millions of $ worth of Property and so on. Realistically, in a real life setting, MOST people in the world would not care about his Message and Ideals, they would want him jailed/hanged/executed. Because he's a criminal.
Ideals and symbolism need to be realistic, just like the characters. You can't have a Mary Sue Idealism, which can never lose and always win. Because such a thing doesn't exist in reality, or else it would already be infested into everyone and everything.
Even 'Good vs Evil' one the most basic ideals in the world, isn't fully realistic, cause no one in reality is 100% good, or 100% evil. Everyone does good and bad things. Everyone is Grey, realistically. Which is why the stories that DO explore that, having characters that do good and bad things, are usually praised much higher than characters like Luffy who is 100% good and can do not evil, even if he breaks the law.
People love Anti-Heroes and Anti-Villains almost always more than the actual Heroes and Villains themselves.
Shadow The Hedgehog, Red Hood (Robin), Doctor Doom, Hulk, Deadpool, and so on. Those people are usually loved much higher than the Heroes in their stories. Cause they are more realistic, doing both good and bad things, depending on the situations they are in. Their ideals are much more believable because of it, compared to the ideals of the unbeatable heroes.
Lets take 2 Heroes, and their Ideals and Symbolism of Good. Namely, Superman vs Batman.
Superman never loses, ever. He's the 'Boy Scout', he always wins, and any conflict usually revolves around Kryponite or the Villain being unbeatable physically. Realistically, we can't realate to Superman at all. He is 100% Good, never does anything wrong, always wins because of his ideals even against heroes much better than him through a Deus Ex or just sheer willpower.
Compare that to Batman, a guy with no superpowers and had to spend decades of his life training just to be on par with most villains. He's also unrealistic in the Gadgets he has to win, but his stories focus more on Detective clues, logic, and especially the 'Reasons' why Villains do what they do.
Again, look at Superman. He is 'Good', and all of his villains are 'Evil', why? Just because they are. Look at Lex Luthur, where it is CANON that EVERY Lex, in EVERY Universe of the DC Multiverse is EVIL and can NEVER be good. That's never a good thing.
But look at Batman Villains. Why are they evil? Joker? Because he's insane through chemicals, trama, mentally broken, and has an ideal he wants to push onto Batman. It isn't as simple as 'He's evil just because'. Same with Two-Face, a Man who was once a high ranked Lawyer till an accident Batman caused also broke his mind and he wanted revenge. Az Al Ghoul, Can never remember how to spell or say his name, is a Semi-Immortal human that wants to rule the world through the shadows and created the League of Assassin, which were one of the Groups that Batman trained from and mastered. Cause of his Mastery, Ghoul wants Batman to join him, because he sees Batman as being as close to perfect as a human can get. Strong Physical Strength, with High Genius levels of intelligence.
As you can see, each of Batman Villains usually aren't so black and white. There were all once good people that turned bad because of different situations. Which is realistic. It makes their warped Ideals more realistic as well, compared to, say, Thanos, or Thor, or Superman, or The Flash.
Without Realism, how can we believe in the Ideals and Symbolism being pushed onto us? And it's shown, that we like Ideals and Symbolism shown by Realistic People, in Realistic situations, better than just having the Ideal and Symbolism winning through a Deus Ex fakeness.
With good vs evil, we also choose the side of good, cause it causes the less death, pain, and destrution. But in most Media, the Villains are always loved more than the Heroes. Thanos is loved more than the Avengers, and Joker is loved more than Batman. Stories about the Villains, seeing through the eyes of the villain, are some of the best written, and most loved stories in the world. Why is that?
It's cause in Reality, Good vs Evil? 'Evil' gets more stuff done, gets farther in life, and gets rewarded much more than 'Good' does. Even tho 'Good' is the lesser of the 2 evils.
@@Jirodyne Not really to argue against you or anything, but I always thought that characters who strives for the highest morale even though they thamselves are just human is also really beloved, too. That's why we like the "protag with a disanvantage" (my hero academia) trope or well written redemption arcs (gollum from lord of the rings). Morally grey characters might resonate with our basic and instinctual side, but at the same time our more hopeful and ambitious sides root for the underdog to finally achieve self-contentment.
That's why great conflicts in stories always teach us great morale while the conclusions are logical and believable. Take Sauron from Lotr, Joker from the Dark knight, or most animated movies for examples, as the villain usually fails ironically because of their own flaw in their ideology, mind you that a flawed ideology isn't neccessarily a uninteresting one.
That being said, not every manga or anime or movies or tv series are created for the sake of making us thinks about ideals or anything that went far beyond our head. I would say that most popular shounen title are loved for their art and entertaining conflicts that don't always mean something, like there are no reason why Superman would pick a fight with Goku, yet fanboys still fantasized about it to this day. It is definitely a niche media.
Though on the subject of ideal being pushed on, I think it isn't just the fight scenes that suffer this, but also the world-building in most of today's manga and anime, as they're only built to serve as a pedestal for the author's complains to be put on, and it annoys me to no end. I dropped One punch man because of that, unfortunately it started a horrible trend for every anime coming out lately, which is why I'm reverting back to disney pixar for more quality writing again.
DUDE NEVER STOP MAKING VIDEOS! You help me improve the stories I write. Thank you man, this helped me so much.
My biggest pet peeve is when they make anime MCs a wimp and uninteresting.
@Not Important Don't watch Black Clover but the entire point of MHA is Deku growing into the role of a hero. It's a classic hero's journey
@Not Important It definitely is surface level to an extent because of how quickly he's adapted to the quirk. Now him not originally having a quirk is irrelevant.
@Not Important Black Clover is nothing but a shounen tropes collection.
Every plotpoint, every character, twist, joke, etc is what we've seen a hundred times before. It's written like the mangaka doesn't know anything outside other shounen manga.
Sure, it's competent at that but it's derivative to its detriment.
(read Beastar instead)
They already went through the female surpassing the male stage the west is going through now
@Not Important it actually isnt at all different from your typical shounen anime in that regard. Taken Naruto, one piece, dbz, stray dogs, bleach, magi. The difference between say Naruto and bnha is that the strength of a character is is soley based on the persons power and their use of it within the bnha universe. For deku to be able to became the top dog, he needs to have a strong quirck because he cant 'learn new quircks" or "train more". And i think using one for all to do so is genious, cause there is so much room for growth within the power. Making it a great fit for a relatively long series since the MC can get alot of breaktrough moments full of growth without it feeling like he Just punches harder after some training montage, a a shouting match and dying his Hair blue.
I THOUGHT THE NAMES SANDY AND PIGSY WAS JUST RED FROM OSP JUST BEING FUNNY HOLY CRAP
Nope. Those are actually their english names lol
That's they're names, did you know that Tripitaka actually means three baskets?
As a writer myself, I find this very enlightening. Thank you.
I'm always amazed at how I can feel your presence while watchinh your videos even though you are just one frame in one side of the screen. You feel more real than many characters in popular media
"...and pretty much every guy who's dramatically pushed up his glasses"
I do that...
Hail Literature Devil. I love your videos. What do you think of MCU's new Spidey replacement... your favorite Kamala Khan lol. It's so ironic that you compared her to Spidey in your "Is Comicsgate Wrong" series months ago and now this happens.
I know lol. I made that comparison partly because she is just a far more shallow version of what Peter Park was.
@@LiteratureDevil Absolutely
Next we know: Iron Man to be replaced by Squirrel girl.
Wat? Why? Who the fuck had that idea?
Time to compare Kamila Kahn to Soran Kehak aka Setsuna from Gundam 00.
Why keep saying "West" when you actually mean USA?
this.
To shorten it, it sound better when he say western than USA
Not nessecarily.
Ancient Greek stories were not written in USA. Some of the things he brings up, like the weak nerd and the jocks, are exclusively American, most of his points are indeed about western in general.
@@KaptenN American tropes like nerd/jock make up about half of the video.
As a person who enjoys comics, anime and western movies, your thorough understanding of these media is quite impressive and the first youtuber I have seen with such a wide scope of understanding
It’s a different way of thinking.
If you ask someone in the west what is the middle number between 1 and 9, they will tell you 5. (1+4 = 5. 5+4 = 9)
You ask someone in the east the same question and the answer will be 3. (1x3 = 3. 3x3 = 9).
We view things arithmetically in the west. They do so logarithmically
Both ways to look at it are correct but are foreign to the other viewpoint.
We also value new things in the west whereas the most prized things in the east are ones that are expertly fixed and appear new, despite being broken.
Ahem. King Arthur and the Knights of The Round Table. Robin Hood and his Merry Men.
They're plot driven stories.
@@sara_s_ Well i think eastern storys have the plot being usually more confusing and the charcters being more powerful. If it would have been eastern literature, arthur would have lived and become the god emperor of the world, while robin hood would have become king.
@@sara_s_ He's not talking about that part.
Light says himself that the main reason he's popular is because of his good looks.
I would've said _Star Trek TOS_ is a perfect example of Nakama appearing in Western media.
Dude this completely explains why queens gambit felt so much like anime storytelling depsite being a western story.
She even had "nakama" in the story where former "enemies" she beats come to her aid and become her greatest friends and allies.
There was never a true "villain" it was about a troubled girl w an exceptional skill coping w her childhood trauma and her desperate need for human connection
Who came from pariah695?
Here.
Classic TH-cam, no notification that this was posted.
Classic internet, nothing works as advertised? ;)
I like Eastern storytelling better, Western feels more about always being dominant, too disconnected and cold, like if people didn’t matter, only the big picture.
Whereas Eastern storytelling tells a person’s story, someone you can relate to or like, and their companions, their lives and how to enjoy the little things.
Both have their ups and downs but at the end of the day, it’s way easier to remember deep emotional moments, than X dude being revealed to be the bad all along while either white stoic guy or minorities being cool cause their minorities and that’s their whole character, chase him in a car while shooting at him.
Of course there are horribly bad tropes in eastern media as well, like insert yourself in harem here, or let’s see who has bigger boobs, or lolis
But I find myself connecting more personally and deeper with a piece of media when it’s about a character’s physical or mental struggle than bunch of dudes fighting evil dude cause it’s my duty.
Western stories are bad for a different reason then you said. They are bad because political correctness have ravaged our stories. Thing is though, American stories still outclass all forms of Asian media except anime and manga. Look at other things aside from those two mediums and you will see their acting for example is subpar
@@ebeleingram8048 Bollywood is excellent. The style is different but there are excellent movies being produced. Om Shanti Om is a personal favorite as well as Rab Ne Bana Di Jodi.
@@iminyourwalls8309 Also gotta love how op's opinion on all storytelling boils down to modern TV... It's not like the legacy of written (I'm not even talking about spoken ones cuz folklore isn't real in America) mediums has any influence or importance here.
Also Jojo tends to be more western in structure but contains the group dynamic of the east (Part 4, which takes place 100% in Japan, is more eastern than western tho)
Your arguments don't line up. Your own example of Death Note completely contradicts your conclusion. It's not ultimately about "what's he gonna' do with the notebook;" that's resolved in the first episode. By your standards, its central conflict between Light and L does make it a western story. Without that conflict, Death Note wouldn't be Death Note.
You say, "Light could have encountered faceless leaders of shadow governments. . ." Sure, and Luke Skywalker could have used the force to battle the Hutt crime families, or dark force users or invading armies of ewoks. We can make up whatever NEW plots we want, but those aren't real parts of the stories we're discussing. This applies similarly to your other examples.
You haven't proved your thesis. You may have noted *A* frequent difference, but you've convinced me it isn't the defining difference.
And you're plain wrong about the difference between eastern and western religions. It's like you're pretending the concept of personal sin does not exist.
Just for fun, what would Death Note look like if it was run through the Kishotenketsu formula? What would pass between Light and L? Can't have them in a life-or-death struggle, so what is the plot? Do they become nakama?
By the way, how DOES the arrival of the black ships fit in? They show up, bring technology and change. . . So what? The only clash is East vs. East. You didn't actually make a point.
But here's the thing Light vs L is a major plot point but it also adds the question if L wasn't there will there be others( or room for another) to be antagonistic. Its not that L is pivotal its the fact that you can take his role without effecting the protagonist.