Repertoire: The BEST Beethoven 9ths--I Promise
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 20 พ.ค. 2020
- Everyone has their favorite version of the Ninth, but on balance there are a few that really stand out for overall excellence. Let me explain which ones they are, and why you should try to hear them (if you haven't already).
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Happy 200th anniversary of Beethoven's 9 premiere🎉🎉
Wand's was the first Ninth I've heard in its entirety and I'd say it's a perfect recording to get to know the piece. After that you can explore different styles, new ones, old ones, period ones, but Wand is one to learn what The Ninth is at its core.
Mr. Hurwitz, Thank you so very much for these video reviews. I have read your reviews in several publications over the years and like your style. I will look forward to every one of your reviews here on youtube.
Love the tie! And as usual impeccable review
Thanks so much!
Τhank you so much for the Wand suggestion. A truly superb performance!
Thank you! I am just now listening to Wand, and you are - of course - entirely correct. It is really something! I have always liked what you recommend. And I do appreciate the humor.
Thanks for sharing!!
Checked out the Wand recording, and it is magnificent! Now to check out his other Beethoven symphonies. Thanks for the recommendation!
So glad you enjoyed it!
I stumbled upon this a few nights ago and being overwhelmed with the ocean of recordings of the 9th, took your advice (Gunter Wand) and am very pleased with your knowledge and info. Thank you
Wonderful!
100% agree about the Fricsay 9th. It is stunning! I also own the Wand but haven't listened to it in some time. Think it might be time to dig it out.
Leonard Bernstein had such a compelling presence on the podium that his live performances "looked" much better than they actually sounded if you closed your eyes. However, his live performance with the Vienna Phil on TH-cam, featuring a very young Placido Domingo, kept me going after major surgery about ten years ago. At the end he just walks off the podium, drenched with sweat, and disappears for a couple minutes before emerging again with the soloists. Talk about leaving it all on the field. I probably watched/listened to it 50 times, and it still touches me. Perfect? No. But it is an incredible, transcendent musical offering. Well worth watching if you can find it. I don't know if it's on CD.
It’s on both CD and vinyl:) I love Bernstein’s Beethoven 9 with the Vienna Phil too! Magnificent performance!
And Blu-Ray! It comes with the DG remaster 😂
Thank you. Listened to the Klemperer recording; very powerful. Reminds me of Rene Leibowitz's and the Royal Philharmonic 1961 recording; heavy on the drums. His Reader's Digest Beethoven Symphonies LP set used to be hard to get after it went out of print.
The Gunter Wand 9th was a very pleasant surprise. I'm gradually listening to his others from that cycle, and the 7th is also commendable. I appreciate your recommendations!
Just listened to Wand's 9th...gotta agree with your view. It's simply stunning!
I remember listening to a record review of Beethoven 9 on French radio in the '60s'. The soloists and conductor were only mentioned at the end of the program. The most admired performance was conducted by Andre Cluytens! A fine conductor.
Very appreciated. Haven't heard so many versions of the 9th, it's great to hear some that I hadn't heard, so looking forward to listening to those. A performance I've liked is from Rene Liebowitz and Royal Philharmonic that was a Reader's Digest box set (remember those?) along with his other symphonies. The sonics of the recording were great.
I had my first taste of classical music growing up in the ‘60’s when at the end of the nightly Huntley-Brinkley report on NBC they would play the second movement of the 9th Symphony as they rolled the credits at the end. Several years later after I had grown up I found a copy of the version by Arturo Toscanini and the NBC orchestra. Still my favorite version of the Mona Lisa of classical music.
WOW! Are we twins separated at birth? When I was about 14 that Huntley-Brinkley music transfixed me... and the credits did not say what the music was. I so wanted to know. Only in college when I stumbled onto Barbirolli's Eroica and wanted to explore more Beethoven symphonies did I get the 9th. First movement; yes very exciting. Then... the scherzo... VOILA, THERE IT WAS. I FOUND IT! (sigh... a 1/2 century ago now...) Be well from a fellow news junkie and music fan.
This review was such a pleasure to listen to; measured, thoughtful and solidly opinionated. So happens I stumbled across the Fricsay and was totally bowled over. As you say is usual, I have performances I love for various reasons of my own, but I missed all three of these. The Fricsay disc is on its way. I have to hear the others. I could not possibly follow you without my streaming service, but am so grateful for the continued existence of CDs. There are times when the things themselves must be in hand. The supply seems secure. I know you think the companies are cheapening product, but I don't see the alternative. It's up to us to value the music and performances. In a sense, they are priceless. BTW, to your point of Bohm live, there is a Sony box of live Nilsson recordings that has a totally unhinged Elektra under Bohm when he took Vienna forces to Montreal at Expo in 1967. Thankfully, because CBC lost the broadcast tape, it was discovered on an obscure pirate and remastered for the Sony issue.
No one mentions Solti 1972! The way he can balance the orchestra and the singers in the 4th movement and make a coherent musical statement deserves mention. It touched me deeply. Recording is also great.
Agree. This was the 9th I knew stem to stern with a wild and savagely joyous finale. So exhilarating.
Beautiful performance!
I agree, the best recorded 9th is the '72 Solti------great chorus, outstanding sonic balance..... just a magical performance
Yup. And Martti Talvela is beyond compare as the bass. Worth it for him alone - but it's all-round great.
Agreed! I suspect Dave’s objection is that he takes the adagio on the slow side, but in my opinion it’s gorgeous. The lower strings and brass make this recording electrifying.
SOOO glad Böhm's version made your list. It is my favorite.
Yeah? Why? That's what David and everyone else is curious about.
Great video. I’m off to listen to Wand’s 9. I have the set. It was hard to find. Finally located one in the UK. Agree completely with your assessment of Wand’s Beethoven. It’s so cleanly articulated, the detail is so melodious. And the sound is fabulous. Fricsay’ 9 is exquisite, supersensual, somehow. Thanks for another great discussion.
Dave, I just saw this. You crack me up. No one but no one has ever criticized Furtwangler and called him "sloppy" as well as you. You iconoclast!
Great video! I also like the Cluytens recording, and in fact his entire cycle. Old school perhaps, but very listenable.
Very comprehensive and insightful. I own and enjoy the Fricsay and Wand recordings, and I also have three (!!!) recordings by Furtwangler : the infamous 1942 performance from Berlin; the 1951Bayreuth recording (I just read Walter Legge edited and"patched" this recording before its commercial release); and the 1954 Philharmonia performance, actually pretty good. I intend to listen to the Bohm recording in the near future. The Schmidt-Isserstedt recording was highly regarded in its day; have not yet heard it but I would be interested in your opinion.
Great review. Wand is truly sublime. But for ninth my favorite modern version is the Karajan’s in the 70s.
Really glad I came across these reviews, I love the enthusiasm!
My personal favourite is Leinsdorf with the Boston Symphony Orchestra, the adagio is faster than most but never sounds hurried to me. The sound to me is spectacular if some may find it a little bright. For me one of the great tests with Beethoven 9ths is the lead up to the end of the first movement, and Leinsdorf's is spinetingling!
In second place I have Solti with the Chicago Symphony Orchestra, I find it a wonderful performance and I also really like the fact that with it's very measured speeds (the slow movement is nearly 6 minutes longer than Leinsdorf! it provides a great contrast and shows how two very different approaches can be equally valid.
In third I would have an older performance by Ansermet and the Suisse Romande, it was difficult to get hold of at the time after having a tape copy many years ago but worth it, the finale is so dramatic! It also has great soloists (Sutherland, Procter, Dermota, Van Mill). But then all my choices have a first choice line up.
I've listened to the Wand suggestion and was impressed, I thought the adagio was absoloutely beautiful, albeit I found some aspects of the finale a little quirky, but I might well take the plunge. I've tried the Karajan DG offerings from the 60's and 70's but they don't grab me in the way that the above versions do.
Please keep up the great work Mr Hurwitz!
thanks for the recommendation of the wand. I really enjoyed it!!!!
Any time!
Fricsay and Schmidt-Isserstedt are my top choices, and the latter has the best vocal quartet ever assembled for a recording heard by me. Charles Münch is exciting, too, and marvelously played. Böhm/VPO is another favorite.
Liking the Fricsay and Klemperer's live 1957 on Testament very much. Fricsay's is also the one you can see on the turntabel in Kubrick's A Clockwork Orange.
The recording, which I think, deserves a honorable mention is Steinberg/Pittsburgh on DG. It uses the re-scoring by Mahler with doubled woodwinds and tuba's added, most prominently in the 1st movement. It's fun to listen to for all the changes, they're subtle enough that the character of the 9th still comes through, but there's fresh air for anyone who heard the symphony many times.
In my first comment, I've said that the Gunter Wand with the NDR orch. is magical. Ok, I rectify, the Gunter Wand performance is good, but not magical. Someone here in the comments has mentioned the Hand Schmidt-Isserstedt with Wiener Philharmoniker performance and I have listened to it. I have compared the two performances and there is no doubt that the magical performance is the one made by Schmidt-Isserstedt. The Wand performance is like good wine but Isserstedt is like an excellent old wine, full of color and light. In the Isserstedt performance, there is that magical flow of sound and music, it has an inner light that gives you an eargasm and elevates your spirit to new heights. Amazing performance, I urge you to listen to it as soon as you can, don't waste one more second of your precious life without listening to this precious piece of magic.
Would like to bring a mention for Blomstedt, Dresden Staatskapelle (between 1975-1980) and the "crazy timpanist".
You ain't kidding the Fricsay sings! I've never heard the 9th like that. Thank you, and I've been enjoying your videos.
Yes, your recommendation was spot on; wonderful performance by Wand! I suspect that less than commanding discipline and musical imagination is necessary for this gigantic piece of compositional genius to be done supremely; you rightly point out what was lacking in some of that area (along with primitive sound) in the Furtwangler. It is interesting that Wagner, when he first heard this symphony, found it incomprehensible and disliked it. It was apparently a badly conducted and played performance. It was several years later, when he was in Paris and heard it done by Habeneck and the Paris Conservatory Orchestra (whose sound and tradition with Beethoven you have been so right to laud here on your channel), that the 'scales fell from his eyes', and he realized its greatness. Of course, this did not prevent him later from doing the polar opposite of the period instrument practice people; he cut and re-orchestrated many parts of it! I wonder if today, when they traditionally open the Bayreuth Festival with the piece, they use his version!
Great to see you wearing your tie to talk about "THE NINTH!"
I had heard the Bohm before so was inspired to listen to bits of Fricsay and Wand to see which I liked better. Both recordings were spectacular, but I was struck by how different they were in outlook. Wand seems like the perfect recording--every decision exactly correct with regard to tempi, balance and phrasing done in a way that seemed a perfect reflection of Beethoven's intent. Fricsay. on the other hand, takes the piece and really makes it his own musical utterance, bringing an element of subjectivity to the performance, the emotions seem like they are his. For me, Fricsay wins easily but I could see it going the other way for many listeners. Fricsay's perforance sings like crazy and seems to have all kinds of interesting stuff in it, perhaps the only performance I have heard that might pleasantly surprise Beethoven.
Well, if nothing else, this video has caused me to become firmly in the "love this channel" camp if for no other reason that to watch you take the piss out of Furtwängler at 9:45. I neither like nor dislike him, but to see you go there and then tangle with the supporters in the comments really made me laugh. I regret that I only have one LIKE to give..
Thank you!
I own and love the Fricsay and Wand performances. Wand is the cycle I recommend to people looking for a set of the complete symphonies. I also love Karajan '77 and I was terribly impressed by the live performance by JEG & ORR at Carnegie in February 2020. I'm curious to check out the Böhm, and the Hogwood that another commenter mentioned. BTW, I've enjoyed your reviews at Classics Today for many years as an Insider. It's fun to see this expansion into TH-cam.
Thank you very much!
Wand's cycle is the very best complete set of Beethoven symphonies!
I went to the entire gardiner-carnegie cycle... the best interpretation and the best performance was the 2nd... the 9th was fine; liked the bass’ solo, outstanding choir
Thanks for the recommendations. I will definitely give them a listen. I admit to struggling with Beethoven's 9th (oh no! God forbid!), of all his symphonies, though the last 2/3 or so (after the big "Freude schöne ... chorus) of the last movement gets me. I keep listening and try to keep my ears open, and sure enough, a lot of music really registers - often when I least expect it to. I loved what you said about Beethoven's metronome markings; for me, performances that try to follow them have just left me cold; they sounded so much like an exercise. It was interesting, though, to hear what the symphonies might sound like at those tempi.
The Ninth is a difficult work, and I am always impressed when someone has the honesty to say that they find it so. Beethoven had no practical experience of working with a metronome. He worked from tempo charts on paper--one of the things that makes the markings so fallible.
@@DavesClassicalGuide Thanks for the reply. By the way, did you know that in Japan Beethoven's 9th is Christmas-time music, and KFC is the supper-time meal? KFC results from a '70s KFC marketing campaign. I'm not sure why Beethoven's 9th is associated with Christmas.
@@stanleymurashige7766 No kidding! I guess it's better than, say, Salome.
what you say in 10.34 reminded me of a concert of Mahler 9th with Bernstein and the IPO in the mid 80s. I played the bass trombone in those concerts and it was unforgettable, mostly for the amazing musical experience but also because of a horrible concert when Lenny stopped conducting in the last 5 minutes (which seemed to me like 5 hours) and just moved around without using his hands and it fell apart, sounding like a nightmare. when asked about it he said angrily: what do you want from me? I'm a musician, not a conductor" (which is total bullshit in my opinion)
On Tidal I have found a Ferenc Fricsay recording of the 9ths with the Berlin Philharmonic Orch. They don't specify the original year of the recording. The recording is in mono and it sounds bad, but the performance is good. I have also found the recording of the Gunter Wand with NDR, originally recorded in 1989 by BMG but it is labeled under RCA and THIS RECORDING AND PERFORMANCE IS MAGIC. Thx for recommendations!
Have you commented, perhaps elsewhere, on any of the several Toscanini 9ths or on any of the several Toscanini Beethoven symphony sets? I'm reminded by the email that came today from Andrew Rose's Pristine Audio operation that is offering a new rehabbed version of Toscanin's televised 1948 Carnegie Hall performance of the 9th. For what it's worth, the sound on the sample offered is far better than any of the highly touted (by others) Furtwangler performances.
No, but I will...someday hopefully.
Agree on Gunter Wand. The best Beethoven cycle available. I listen to it on my streaming service and the sound is superb.
When I was a kid I heard excerpts on the radio of the Ninth, I loved it and when I had bought my first stereo I wanted to buy it as my first classical record. I went to the shop and said: "I want Beethoven's Ninth". The lady asked me: "Which one?" I was bewildered, there could surely be only one Beethoven's Ninth? No, she said. So I chose the cheapest one, cause they were all the Ninth, makes sense if you don't have a lot of money. It was crap when I listened to it, they had managed to get it all on one LP, that's why it was so cheap. The grooves were so close to each other, it just sounded awful. Then I bought a box with all the symphonies by Karajan. Didn't like the Ninth either, guess I am hard to please. Then when I was a student I saw a double CD case with the Ninth and Fifth. Bargain sale it was. They were by Böhm, I finally fell in love again with the symphony. Tempo is so important for mood and breath and I think Böhm takes the right tempi: the Adagio sings as if the orchestra is the choir and overall it sounds like a movement from a requiem, a cry up to heaven. The Alla marcia is strict like a march and gives the the singers enough time sing their phrases and not just scream like in so many other performances. To me the third and fourth movements are the centre of the symphony, the first two are just to set the stage and build up the mood. The two movements feel like they are Beethoven's testament, he accepted the fate of death and has come to terms with himself just before he wants to let us know he loves the world and life and for this he uses all the force he can muster. Indeed, always wear a tie when talking about the Ninth!
It's one of the best feelings to take your tie off to relax and then listen to some Beethoven. lol
Really like the choices. Fricsay's 9th is perfect and sounds clean and transparent enough to win over HIP fundalmentalists. Fischer-Dieskau is buoyant and actually joyful, Haefliger and Forrester are great too. The only blemish is Seefried's hideous exposed top note at the end. That needed a retake.
Other favourite 9s for me are Charles Munch and Leinsdorf ( both RCA). Both very fast and unemcumbered by reverence or Tradition or point making. Leontyne Price with Munch and Domingo /Milnes with Leinsdorf are amazing. As you can tell I like a baritone for the 9th 's florid writing.
Absolutely go for the Magic Wand in the 9th and the whole cycle if you can find it. You will hear more detail in these recordings than any other for two reasons, the conducting and the sonics, both exemplary!
I was disappointed with the third symphony in the circle
Maybe I need to revisit Harnoncourt. Barenboim is one of my favourites too.
As long as we keep listening...so much out there!
Mr. Hurwitz, you are my favorite classical record critic. Many times, after having compared dozens of recordings to find my favorite interpretation of a piece, I’ve then found a review of yours in which you came to the same conclusion. If you recommend something, I’ll buy it. I respect your opinions and admire your writing. But I’m baffled that you don’t like Gardiner’s Beethoven. I grew up listening to my dad’s records of Karajan conducting Beethoven, and I loved those records. Then, my senior year of high school, I read about the Gardiner set in Time Magazine. It cost me a whole paycheck from my part-time job to get it, and I when I first listened it was a religious experience. It’s not a dogmatic issue for me. There’s lots of “big band” Beethoven I like, but if I could only have one Beethoven cycle it would be Gardiner’s.
My favorite orchestra is the Minnesota Orchestra. I’ve been to probably 20 of their concerts over the years. I know the principal trumpet player pretty well. (I like their recent Beethoven set, too.) You won my respect with your glowing review of their Das Lied record with Oue. I knew it! I knew it was that good!
You are right about the Furtwangler war recording BUT, the Ode to joy theme, the first appearance by the strings, has a truly special, almost scary feeling to it. It seems as though the musicians had the knowledge that it might well be the last time they played the symphony, since it was towards the end of the war, and they play it as if their lives are on the line. It is worth a listen.
,,
I haven't found a fourth movement more satisfying than Alexander Rahbari with the BRTN Philharmonic Orchestra, Brussels. Impeccable flow, unparalleled (to my ears) vocals, and cleanly recorded. However, only a recording of the fourth movement seems to exist and it can be hard to find on TH-cam (but it's there!), let alone anywhere else!
How hard have you looked?
Thanks!
Thank you very much for your kindness!
George Szell is my favorite in the Ninth, also I like Vänskä and Järvi. That ‘Tristan und Isolde’ from Böhm is the first opera I ever listened to, and years later it, conducted by Eschenbach, became the first I attended.
Those are all fine versions too. As I said, there are so many good recordings and choosing among them is very much a matter of personal taste (and time, and experience).
The way Szell slows the tempo during the second half of the third movement is ghastly.
I'm not keen on Szell's Beethoven, it sounds sanitized to me. Toscanini much better in that style imo
@@bwpm1467 Szell was known for choosing the ideal tempi for almost any piece that he ever conducted. And I feel that he does so throughout the Beethoven 9th too; including in the 3rd movement.
In any case, musical preferences are all a matter of personal taste.
@@bwpm1467 not sure what you are referring to here. I don't sense any ghastly change of tempo from 1st to 2nd half.
I really really like Leinsdorf's version with the Boston Symphony Orchestra on RCA Red Seal.
I have both the Fricsay and the Wand recordings, both need to be heard. You mentioned you didn't care for period instrument performances. I do have say that I personally enjoy Christopher Hogwood's cycle with the AAM.
I think his 9th is probably the best of the HIP versions, but these things are relative. His Haydn "Creation" is sensational.
The Fricsay has always been my favorite, but for a close second, I vote for Hans Schmidt-Isserstedt with the Vienna Philharmonic and the best solo vocal quartet ever assembled, superbly recorded. Fritz Reiner is pretty great, too, and I hear details in his recording not heard in any other in my experience.
Hi Dave. Out of curiosity when you recommend recordings are they your personal favorites? I won’t judge you. Everyone is entitled to their opinion. But I agree with your opinion of furtwangler of 1942 it’s awful in my opinion as well.
Sometimes yes, most often, no.
I think Tennstedt with the LPO at the Royal Albert Hall (not the later Festival Hall one) deserves a mention.
Why?
@@DavesClassicalGuide It's an overlooked performance with many virtues. Indeed, Tennstedt is often forgotten, to a degree, as a conductor. The sound may not be ideal (Royal Albert Hall), but this performance is preferable to his more remembered Royal Festival Hall performance of seven or so years later. Plenty of drama, majesty in the Adagio (without being too slow) and a sense of feeling throughout, not to mention a palpable sense of connection between conductor and ensemble. I'm not saying it's my favourite Ninth, necessarily, but I think live performances of this symphony are preferable, in my view, to studio accounts, and this is right up there, for me, as among the best. In fact, most of his Beethoven impresses me. I like this, the Gielen (Hanssler) and Mackerras (Hyperion). All are live, and in my view have so much more atmosphere (very important in this work) than the Karajan, Wand or Fricsay efforts. Nor do they feel 'middle of the road' like Blomstedt or Jansons (and countless others, besides).
@@bwpm1467 Fair enough. Thanks for the recommendation.
I’ve been listening to a lot of the 9th this week & the Fricsay is for me the best by some margin.
I do realise that your commentaries (which I enjoy very much) are limited to recorded music; however, TH-cam offers tremendous opportunities to enjoy outstanding performances. I just downloaded what, in my most humble opinion, is the most enjoyable performance of Beethoven's 9th by the Leipzig Gewandhausorchester and Choir conducted by Herbert Blomstedt. I'd be delighted to hear your appraisal.
Amen to Fricsay for working with Fischer-Diskau ! 😊 the soloists work really well together as is often not the case in my opinion (solti's soiloists do also i think)
Bohm's soiloists are also great!
I had expected somebody in this thread to at least mention Eugen Jochum's account for EMI. Is it a sleeper that just oversleep to the point where it is now considered stone dead?
It is not stone dead. It is included in the Icon box on Warner which is strongly reccomended by mr Hurwitz.
What about Mahler's version? And those Japaneae performances with 10,000 performers! I heard the Mahler on PBS. I think it was the Philadelphia orchestra? One strange thing to hear indeed...
Besides all the great versions already mentioned here, I would like to mention Cluytens and Walter (both 1959).
I’m surprised that you didn’t include any Furtwangler and Toscanini recordings. They all are great.
No, they aren't. That's why I didn't include them.
@@DavesClassicalGuide Toscanini is my hero, but he actually admitted that he did not understand everything about the Ninth. His late Ninth with the NBC SO is both too fast and rather short on subtlety. I don't think we dishonour a great man by admitting what he was the first to admit.
Thank you for bringing our attention to the Fricsay. Yes, I find it extremely good, driven by a sense of urgency and excitement. I agree with you too about the later Bohm version, so slow and hard work to listen to. Looking at some of the others on TH-cam, Dudamel is free-moving, youthful and exuberant. Muti lacks drive, is slow and pompous, though the Chicago Orchestra boast a really sumptuous tone. Barenboim (at the Proms) is hard, severe and heavy-handed. The music seems to have a STOP quality stitched into it, as if reined in by caution and FEAR. Schmidt-Isserstedt with the VPO is the EQUAL of Fricsay though in a different way. Not as fast but equally exciting. Schmidt-Iserstedt's is the performance that most DANCES in its rhythmical swing. It still has a wonderful sense of architecture and proportion, rich Vienna Phil sound, and like Fricsay, has the Beethoven idiom through and through.
What about Otto Klemperer’s 9th in general ? I find his 1957 live version the greatest of him and one of the greatest ever. His 1970 , in my opinion , was even slower but also sometimes more expressive. What do you think Mr.Hurwitz ?
I think you should enjoy whatever touches you most strongly. Klemperer always did a great Ninth.
The Klemperer live from 1957, right before the official recording, is the best 9th for me either. It is a one shot symphony, i.e. in the first note your already have a vision of the finale. I is full of passion poetry and strength, and concludes by a volontary ode to joy. This view gives a strong unity to the 9th.
The sound quality is excellent, stereo.
How's the rest of that Bohm Beethoven set, David?
1. Wand/NDR SO 1987
2. Fricsay/Berliner Phil. 1958
3. Böhm/Wiener Phil. 1972(?)
Edit: I wrote the above before watching. Happy to see we think alike.
Mr. Hurwitz, how would you rate? MANFRED HONECK 9th rust released in 2021.
I made a video review of it. Check out the Beethoven playlist.
Is there a little pizzicato fluff in the middle of Wand's Adagio?
Overall, it feels like a very middle of the road cycle, and I am not sure about the mid-80s digital sound.
Some people seem to feel that the sheer sound of Furtwangler's recordings, as if coming at you from another world, adds to them. I think they feel, too, that the orchestral errors add to the sense of 'occasion', somehow. I myself am not so sure.
I think Furtwangler's best ninth to actually listen to is the 1954 Lucerne, but there is 'something' about the 1942... the ensemble mistake in the adagio (though one CD edition of it fixes that) always bugs me, though.
The live Mackerras (Hyperion) and the second Gielen are great, in my view.
The Lucerne I found tame in comparison to the wartime Berlin. The balance was bad too, with timpani louder than the band. For me, it's 1942
@@stuartclarke4683 Ultimately, I don't find Furtwangler's vision of the Adagio musically persuasive. It's far too slow (20 minutes is just absurd) and I don't even believe the 'notes on the page' actually support playing it that way in the first place. It surprises me that someone with musical knowledge would look at that score and think they can play that movement that slowly. There are melodies and rhythms that are lost when it's slowed down like someone has set the turntable to the wrong speed.
I hate the horn fluff in the 1942 version, too; the bit where he comes in a fraction too early. I realise people think this is all immensely spiritual and profound, but I think they're wrong! There are about two or three minutes at the very start of that movement that (sort of) work at a very slow tempo, but once all the variations kick in the concept falls apart.
Also, I am not exactly sure you can claim that the balances are anything close to ideal on the 1942 ninth! Most of Furtwangler's recordings sound pretty confronting, in that respect.
@@bwpm1467 Guess we'll have to agree to differ on this one. I feel the 42 Adagio is transcendentally beautiful - it's amazing he has such control of the band that he can play it so slow and lose no forward momentum. I hear no lost melodies or rhythms. The entry of the strings at 3.49 is one of the most beautiful sounds I can remember. Anyway, just been checking my old TAHRA CDs and I still feel the timpani in the Lucerne is a distraction. The 42 recording, murky mono though it is, gives a better orchestral perspective in my opinion.
Anyway, I don't want to squabble about it, it's different strokes I guess. What are your favourite 9ths?
@@stuartclarke4683 In faster renditions of the Adagio you hear some lovely little rhythmic ideas, especially in the second half of the movement. It's a real stretch to claim that these aren't affected by a very slow tempo, such as the one employed by Wilhelm F. And even if you don't believe in Beethoven's metronome markings, it's very hard to believe he had a 20 minute version of the Adagio in mind. I think he would have considered 15 or 16 minutes pushing it. I don't think he was intending something "spiritual", which seems to be the feeling people claim to get from ultra-lethargic tempi.
If you have the Aaron Z. Snyder remaster, you may not know what I mean by the mistake at around 14 minutes, as he edited it out (without saying so in the notes) on the Music & Arts reissue. All other versions (Pristine, Tahra etc) have the mistake.
I like a Beethoven 9 to sound celebratory and triumphant, and not only in the final movement. I like Mackerras on Hyperion and Michael Gielen, if I am honest.
@@bwpm1467 Thanks Matt. That's all fair enough. But personally, I don't give a fig what Beethoven might have had in mind, it's a wonderful sound. I have the TAHRA version. Haven't heard the Mackerass version, so will will give it a go.
David, I just heard a very exciting live BBC performance on Performance Today by the Chineke Orchestra of the 9th. They’re billed as “Europes first majority Black and ethnically diverse orchestra “. I suppose that’s important. I’m thrilled that all kinds of people love Beethoven. Anyway, aside from some disjointedness here and there, they played it with a lot of verve! I was particularly impressed with the reeds and winds, interacting with the strings. I didn’t catch the conductor’s name. But I was impressed. By the way, the second movement reminded me of Sibelius’s in the 5th. There are some similarities there.
I saw it too Carl and it was thrilling. The conductor was Kevin John Edusei from Munich. Chineke is becoming one of the UK's leading symphony orchestras IMHO, I can't wait to hear em' do the Haydn Londons.
You said, “Europe’s first majority black and ethnically diverse orchestra…..I suppose that’s important”. Well, no , it isn’t. They should put orchestras together according to musical and technical ability, not according to ethnicity and skin color. There are already “ethnical people”(whatever THAT means) in all the major orchestras of the world who are technically and musically highly developed and who love great music. We do not need orchestras that value ethnicity over musicality! You said, “Aside from some disjointedness here and there, they played with a lot of verve!” Good grief! How much more condescending can you be!?
I'd like your opinion on something when I listen to Beethoven's ninth on my system no matter the version it sounds thin like the choir is only 12 people , you could say its my hearing or my system but other vocal large works don't have this effect Has anyone else noticed this?
I'm sorry but I don't hear what you describe.
Even though I love my HIPP Beethoven, the 9th is, indeed, an exception. But as much as I love Wand, I simply can't remain insensitive to the timpani going absolutely NUTS in the recapitulation of the first movement in Järvi's recording, and I'm pretty sure you don't either!
Yes, but it's just one moment.
+1 for the tie
I think Bruckner deserves a special tie.
I recently came across the Otmar Suitner Ninth with the Staatskapelle Berlin, which is ELECTRIC-faithful to the score and generally brisk (but not-too-brisk) and relentlessly exciting. A review from 1984 in Stereophile by J. Gordon Holt said this about this recording upon its release: "This is a positively stunning performance, abetted by one of the best-sounding orchestral recordings on CD to date.... This is a monumental, consummately joyous Ninth that leaves the listener with a wonderful feeling of elation. If the orchestral playing is at times a little less than world-class and a couple of the soloists not quite up to star level, so what? This may well be the definitive Ninth on CD, both interpretively and sonically."
As I said, there is no recording so dull and ordinary that someone, somewhere, won't call it "definitive."
@@DavesClassicalGuide I'll bet that would have sounded much nicer had you said it on one of your videos, sir. ;-)
@@stephenmichael4636 That was perfectly nice, I think. Why, seeing the videos, would you assume that I am not speaking with a smile? But seriously, Suitner is a much better conductor than he gets credit for being, usually, but his Beethoven is rather ordinary. His Mozart, for example, is tremendous. However, I remember when the Beethoven cycle came out on Denon. It was the first Beethoven cycle available on CD. It got a few good reviews in publications with an audiophile (as opposed to a musical) slant, and everyone rushed out to buy it, and then rushed back to return it because it just wasn't especially distinguished. it didn't wear well and as soon as other major cycles were released it was gone and forgotten. The sonics were lovely, though, because of the excellent East German engineering. Of course, you can enjoy it all you like, and you should, but you should be aware that these recordings do have a history (beyond a review in Stereophile) and their reputation is not all that great.
@@DavesClassicalGuide Thank you for this thoughtful reply, sir. I am an amateur (my only musical training being playing the saxophone in 5th grade), so I appreciate, and defer to, the judgment of wise critics like you. I will move on to explore the Suitner Mozart on your recommendation.
@@stephenmichael4636 I hope you meant "wise" sarcastically (see, we all need a video). It's not wisdom, just experience, and there are many commentators who, I'm sure you will discover, also bring a useful fund of experience to bear on their judgments. There are also a lot of fakes and phonies, unfortunately, but that comes with the territory. If I may make one suggestion? Take your time, live with the music and your favorite versions, then perhaps sample another and see how it strikes you. There's no hurry--the point is that the experience should be as enjoyable as possible. I meant what I said originally--there is no performance out there that someone doesn't love, but if you want to try to get the "best" versions, more important than seeking out the advice of others is to know your own preferences, so you have a basis to judge what they say. Be selfish. It's your money and your time!
1.Wilhelm Furtwangler - Bayreuther Festspiele - 1951
2.Otto Klemperer - Philharmonia - 1957
3.Ferenc Fricsay - BPO - 1958
4.Fritz Reiner - CSO - 1961
IMHO
No need to spend $$ on the newly mixed 2022 Furtwangler releases then! :)
My one to go to is the Bohm one you said, but this set has a pretty bad remastering job… The one I like is the released on duo DG, paired with the 3rd.
Is it just me, or has repeated listening to these three recommendations really seen Fricsay rise to the top? Wand has great texture, but he doesn't get me excited as much. Some of Bohm's slow tempi in the finale can frustrate me.
Quite possible.
@@DavesClassicalGuide or, looking at it another way, thank you David for revealing a recording that has truly opened up Beethoven's Ninth for me!
I have to admit there is no recording the moves me more than Böm's second recording, slow and all.
How about the Abbado Berlin 1996?
How about it?
@@DavesClassicalGuide Touche, David...I have always enjoyed the energy and vitality of this live performance...and the sound quality makes this performance for me...so superior to other Abbado Beethoven
What's your opinion of this recording?
@@martinhochbaum8936 I agree. It's an excellent performance.
@@DavesClassicalGuide Just wanted to thank you for your wonderful video channel...lots of fun, especially with the sleepers and (occasional) times when I think you're out to lunch... :)
By the way, any plans to compare/contrast the Bernstein and Abbado Mahler video efforts? Thanks again and keep up the good work!
@@martinhochbaum8936 No plans for that, but I'm always good for lunch. Thanks for watching!
You are dressed in the colors of the German flag, how appropriate 😊
I like Szell for Beethoven 9 though the sound could be better. Bruno Walter is good but again the sound is dim.
I have a bunch of Ninths, including some of your favs, but didn't know Wand had made a recording. I've always admired his work. A major consideration for me is the singing. The chorus should be transparent, of course, and inspired, but should not scream. The soloists must be first-class, or better. The soprano shouldn't shriek, and the blend must be good. Of course, a great basso. The soli can't make a great recording, but surely can ruin one. The piece is overplayed, in my view. Once upon a time it was a "special occasion" piece.
Love the tie! :-) For what it's worth, I'm extremely critical of what I regard as sub-par performances of this great symphony, including many by conductors I almost always like a lot (even Fricsay, Solti, Szell, & Walter!), and here is my brief reasoning why, for 14 of them (often, it has to do with tempo):
VPO/Furtwangler (5-31-53) [ReSound Project] [I-III sluggish, IV unsatisfactory; mediocre sound]
BAY/Furtwangler (1951) [vital & exciting, but lousy sound & horns]
COL/Walter (1959) 2015 [lacks spirit & stirring quality, IV is a dud]
VPO/Schmidt-Isserstedt 1966 [perfunctory; lacks spirit, dynamism, & punch]
BPO/Fricsay (1958) / 2001 [bad]
CLE/Szell (1963) [committed performance, but sound problems, III too fast]
VPO/Bohm (1971) / 1992
CSO/Reiner (1961) / 1994 [weird sound & balance; lacks spirit & energy]
PHO/Klemperer (1957?) [II too slow, III too fast, IV perfunctory; lacks gravitas]
NBC/Toscanini (3-31-52 and 4-1-52) [too fast; lousy sound]
LSO/Stokowski (1967) / 2005 [too fast, lacks gravitas, sound problems]
BPO/Karajan (1-77) / 2003 [great performance, but sound & balance problems, lousy choir]
CSO/Solti (10-86) / 1995 [lifeless; lacks soul & spirit]
CSO/Solti (5-72) / 1991 [balance problems, lacks intangible elements in I, III]
So what are my favorites? I actually have some! Here are three (so far):
PHO/Furtwangler (8-22-54) [overpowering, majestic, inspired!]
BPO/Karajan (10-62) [dramatic, dynamic, & heartfelt; great sound]
VPO/Bernstein (9-79) [perfect performance; captures Beethoven's spirit; great solo singers; sound slightly dated]
And a four-star pick:
BAV/Kubelik (1-75) [solid performance & tempi; I, II superb, choir & singers sub-par in IV, and brass is too subdued. Classical interpretation]
The best is always the FIRST TIME one was carried away
Klemperer 40 years ago
Thanks. I would substitute Schmidt-Isserstedt for Bohm as my Vienna Phil version. Same great Orchestra, and a great vocal quartet.
I would have added it, not substituted, but the problem has been availability. I agree it's one of the great ones.
@@stevemolino1 I know. I have that recording too, but it comes and goes--I wish the whole box remained available here.
I've always loved the Schmidt-Isserstedt with the Vienna Phil too. Everything about it is just right.
I have found it on Tidal. I will listen to it. Thx!
The whole cycle is so consistent. I love the box but i have issues with the remastering with clicks and other noises. The performance though, ranks very highly. Wish Decca would reissue with the digital flaws ironed out.
Great picks. My issue with conductors from the 50s, 60s and 70s is their over-romanticizing of works by the likes of Mozart and Beethoven.
Wand also recorded the greatest beethoven 8.
I'm inclined to agree. A very, very great versions.
David Hurwitz Hello David
I have some live recordings of Gunter Wand's Schubert symphonies with the NDR sinfonieorchester and I wanted to have your opinion on his recordings of the integral with the kolner Rundfunk Sinfonie Orchester. Is it good?
Wand is the best Beethoven cycle - but in the final of the 9th he is not so good (a pity beacause he done perhaps the best 1st mov.) Fricsay is still the more balanced version - excellent in every movement. A sleeper: Schmidt-Isserstedt, And, for me, Mackerras is the best "HIP" version - much much better than Järvi who is too fast in the 1st mov. altough Chailly is even faster but interesting, more provocative.
The third symphony is disappointing in the circle
Karajan loved his singers!!
Sort of. He hated the chorus.
@@kenm.3512 You forgot Leontyne Price. Price was his protege until well after her Met debut.
Furtwangler compromised technicality to musical creativity, and artistry. Celibidache viewed that as real music making. Celibidache was also dismissive of those who emphasized on flawless instrumental playing, while losing touch of music making. He addressed such conductors with some bad adjectives. Though I do enjoy performances by Szell
and Karajan for instance, I get more fulfillment by the musical expression coming from Furtwangler performances. I am not a musician, but the way I see it, one can't strive
for impeccable music playing, without compromising on artistic expression. That puts me in the Furtwangler camp, in the age old debate of Furtwangler vs Toscanini.
However I see the merits of both sides. As to Beethoven's 9th, I used to collect every single recording I could lay my hand on, at some point I ceased having favorites.
Most great conductors shed a different light on this music that is worth listening.
You are completely wrong. Your taste is, obviously, your taste, but to say that "one can't strive for impeccable music playing without compromising on artistic expression" is simply untrue, belied by the facts. and merely reveals your own limitations as a listener. There is no conflict between one quality and the other--that dichotomy you create is utterly false--and great artists always strive for BOTH maximum expression and maximum technical excellence. Whether or not you are a musician is irrelevant, as you are not talking about music at all, merely an irrational intellectual construct. This is exactly what Tovey described as "the cult of amateurishness," and it can't be condemned too strongly. It does a terrible disservice to all artists, including those like Furtwängler, whose standards were no less high than Toscanini's, even if his abliity to achieve them was only fitfully in evidence.
This will be my last complaint about Karajan on your vids. I don't want to go over and over since i usually like your advices. Dear M. Hurwitz, here with Böhm, Fricsay or Wand, it's like if you were speaking of good old grapes of wine, pinot, cabernet... With Karajan, it's like if you were quickly bringing a bottle of coke out of your fridge. Every time is an amazing dropout. Playing with no accents, no articulation, not much flexibility, no breathing. I know nothing as average as the Pastorale of the 1963 Beethoven's cycle. How can you be so severe with Furtwängler (the orchestra usually sounds glorious, burnished) while being so indulgent with Karajan? In the Nouvel Observateur (november 2007) Gustav Leonhardt, the dutch harpsichordist said in an interview: "I knew Karajan in Vienna. Besides, he was not a good conductor. The musicians certainly didn't like it, but we saw horrible people doing wonderful things. He had no relationship with his musicians: only with the audience. His back. He had a "back charisma". It exists ! Karajan made a career out of his back. But he was not a good musician."
Your "evidence" against Karajan is gossip and generalization by analogy. There is not anything you say about Karajan's performance that represents an audible musical fact. That's the reality. if you were to say that "at measure 19 he does X and that is bad for reason Y" then we would have something to discuss, but honestly, and I don't dispute your true feelings or their validity, you hardly seem to be speaking of music at all. Leonhardt's opinion does not interest me at all. It is worthless hearsay. Again, the music making speaks for itself on a case by case basis. I'm sure Karajan was, like so many artists, a narcissistic jerk. So what?
@@DavesClassicalGuide Your foudness for Karajan must be linked to your own personnal experience. If you don't hear the difference in the 9th finale between Szell and Karajan's conducting (1963 version, gosh...) there is not much i can say because it's audible at every bar, e-ve-ry bar, the orchestral perfection, the choir preparation, the soloists discipline, everything... On the same basis you evaluate Maasaki Suzuki and then say that it's bad (I do take your advice)... Articulation, phrasing, transparency, tempo proportions, inner structure of the movements, the meaning of the whole symphony. Please compare Strauss's Don Quichotte with Pierre Fournier. Same soloist in Berlin and in Cleveland. Szell "the disciplinarian" is even freer, more romantic! P.-S. Gustav Leonhardt must have been a much better musician than you and me combined and I swear he could improvise an amazing keyboard continuo through an entire Matthaus Passion, conducted by Karajan, Prohaska or Scherchen in the early 50's in Vienna
No hard feelings? Amicalement.
@@marc-andredoran3819 Of course no hard feelings. You are more than free to disagree with me, and I respect that. Of course Karajan sounds different from Szell, and I greatly prefer Szell, but I chose Karajan not because I like him, but because he had a distinct point of view that he realized superbly in that recording, and I felt obliged to give credit where credit was due. That is the difference, sometimes, between criticism and mere fandom. I do feel an obligation to acknowledge different interpretations, take into account the general consensus, and consider other factors beyond my own personal preference. It may not exactly be "objective," but it isn't totally "subjective" either. I see it more as an aspect of professionalism as a critic. I take great pride in recognizing excellent work, whether I happen to like it or not, and telling listeners about it so that they can come to their own conclusions.
I briefly met Karajan in 1982. I was working on a stage crew. My observation was that he was well liked by the players, he appeared to give everything to the performance, even given his age and chronic back condition. I enjoyed the performance to the extent I was not distracted by my responsibilities.
Karajan had more music in his tiny finger
Then you have in your whole body
And that's the truth