What Happened to Gandalf when he became Gandalf the White? | Lord of the Rings Lore | Middle-Earth
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 26 พ.ย. 2020
- After Gandalf fought a terrible battle with a balrog of Morgoth, he died from his wounds after defeating his foe, but this wasn't the end of his time in Middle-Earth. For he was sent back as Gandalf the White to complete his misson to rally resistance against Sauron. Where did Gandalf's spirit go to after his death, and who sent him back to Middle-Earth? And was he more powerful as Gandalf the White and what other abilities, knowledge and powers did he unlock?
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Gandalf just needed that solo XP so he could level up faster than the rest of the group.
He just took sometime to get back cause he was out any red pots, thus was regenerating his HP naturally
it was a solo quest to change/transcends his job 😅
What an XP hog
A side quest only for the grey wizard class/race to obtain the white wizard form.
Oh shit , he went mid lane to get the solo xp
A Wizard is never late...nor is he early. He transforms precisely when he means to.
I love this!!! :D
Imagine wizards being able to power up like sayans.
I love it!
@@GeekZoneMT I love what you do in return, these things just come to me I don't think about them.
The time of his return is another sign of this. Frodo and Sam had left to destroy the One Ring, Merry and Pippin were on the path that would lead to Isengard's destruction. Boromir was meant to fall so Aragorn, Legolas and Gimli would follow Merry and Pippin and meet the new Gandalf. Eru Illivitar was very busy in 3019 T.A! Eru Illivitar may have destroyed Numenor and removed Aman from Arda, but he had not forsaken Middle-Earth! Also, Gandalf says Bilbo was meant to find the One Ring, but not by it's maker, which means you also were meant to have it" how can Bilbo and Frodo be 'meant' have the One Ring? Only Illivitar could cause such things to happen! Eru Illivitar was at work in 2941 T.A! In fact he was at work for nearly 500 years as the Nazgul became wraith after a few hundred years, but not Gollum! Eru Illivitar prevented Gollum from fading into a wraith! Eru Illivitar was involved with Middle-Earth and planned Sauron's fall for 500 years!
The grey version seemed more down to earth in my opinion, gandalf the white seemed more like he was just there to complete his task in helping frodo and nothing else.
Yeah I agree, Gandalf the Grey seemed much more vulnerable and human.
That's exactly the point.
I feel up admiring the White more, because of his power. But as I've gotten older, on now late 21, I value the the Grey so much more. The down to earth, kind and peaceful, teacher and friend. Like a grandfather. The white, while still all these things, is the leader, but although no less so, feels more distant.
The White seemed more distant to humanity. He seemed more fearsome too. Its almost like running in to a childhood friend who has changed from what you remember. You feel connected in a way but dont really know who you are dealing with.
sort of successful to the point, no? if Gandalf 'white' version passed through a large period of time, grew in wisdom, but lost some of the details from his experiences in Middle Earth.... overall having a large-scale perspective on his job rather than the intimacy of things would make sense. the White version would be naturally less in connection with his Earthly connections after the resurrection
Gandalf the White : "I just did all the side-quests first".
🤣🤣🤣🤣
Mmo Gandalf: i just spent a lot of money to skip all the gameplay.
I think its erroneous to say Saruman was refused passage to Valinor because he failed his mission. Its more valid to say he was refused entry because he fell into evil and abandoned his mission.
Perhaps you misunderstood me, but I was referring to Gandalf's potential return to the undying lands. In Tolkien's letters he mentions that Gandalf's spirit might not have been able to return to Aman as it was possible that his death might have been seen as a failure of his mission :)
@@GeekZoneMT I see what you're saying. But Saya Garapan points out that there's an important distinction of intent. It might be possible to return to the undying lands after dying while striving for the mission (even though that's still failure) as opposed to dying after abandoning the mission and actively working against it. Saruman didn't "merely" fail.
@@stevensoutdoors yeah, Saruman enslaved the Hobbits and caused many deaths to The Rohirrum. Also in his last moments alive he did not repent, but attacked Frodo and failed to kill him. Before Grima was the one to kill Saruman after Saruman mocked and be taunted Grima.
So then we can take his final moments that he hadn’t seen the wrongs he had done and so was rejected from returning. Left to wander Middle-Earth as a spirit with no power and unable to return for the misery he caused in Middle-Earth.
@@GeekZoneMT nah, I've got to agree with Saya here too. Olorin's mortal form was killed as he destroyed a lieutenant of Morgoth, while protecting the most critical mission of the Free Peoples.
If Eru hadn't scooped Gandalf up, I have no doubt his spirit would've been permitted to re-enter Aman when it got there.
Sauruman's problem wasn't (just) failure, it was defiling his oath to the Valar. He made a mockery of his purpose and caused untold suffering in his pursuit of power.
@@GeekZoneMT I think they fail to see that your basing your statement off a letter by Tolkien. I agree with you :) though I do love their viewpoints on it, I like the intention route. Yet, we have to follow what Tolkien says and take our own theories in stride
I thought it was hilarious when Gandalf was trying to smoke with his new lungs and went into a coughing fit.
Yeah looks like he re-specced his perk points.
No it was cause it was that Gondor sh*t
Funny story: I know a guy who stopped reading Lord of the Rings because Gandalf died. Wasn't until the second movie comes out that he realizes he comes back.
"I am Gandalf the Premium Edition. And I come back to you now - at the turn of the tide."
Lmao
Haha the extended version
with shampoos and conditioners for the free people of middle earth
Free trial
It still bothers me that Peter Jackson had the Witch-King destroy Gandalf’s staff in the movies. It never happened in the books and it makes Gandalf appear weaker than the Witch-King, which he most certainly isn’t.
that's hollywood for ya
I just saw that part for the first time last week in the extended version and was perplexed.
exactly, that pissed me off so much
One of the scenes that I’m happy they cut out from the shorter version
I don’t remember that scene. I need to rerewatch when I have time.
maybe this explains how Gandalf knew the Corsair of Umbar were coming when he was still in Eriador.. zoom 3000000x x)
There is some unseen force, either Mandos or Manwë or Lórien or even Eru Ilúvatar, that instills prescient "gut" feelings into people. I do not think it has ever been explained. It may, in truth, not be one singular entity.
Ulmo knows of everything that takes place in or near water, so it very well may have been he that gave Gandalf that information. Manwë's eyes can see nigh all of creation and everything that happens in it from atop his home on Taniquetil, so he could well have told his Eagles to tell Gandalf that. The Eagles, themselves, could have noticed it and relayed it to Gandalf.
It could simply be because the Ainur know much of what will happen in the world because of the part they played in the music of creation. Wisdom combined with a degree of foreknowledge can allow one to predict what will transpire. Not with 100% accuracy, mind you, as there are always things in each age that are unlooked for a new. That is a result of the theme made only by Eru Ilúvatar. Gandalf could know the same way Melian knew that Beren would one day enter Doriath.
It all goes back to the Simarillion, when all of the Valar and Maiyar first sang the world into being under direction from Eru. After the song was over they got to see a moving image of all they had sung up to the dominion of men. I believe this film (almost) that was shown to them by Iluvatar was in fact the forgotten things that Gandalf remembered. So in this sense all of the Valar and Maiyar who had not been locked into wizard form had this knowledge. A more interesting question might be did Morgoth always know he was going to fail? As he saw the same moving image, saw himself be defeated. Also why did Sauron forget that two hobbits were carrying the ring to Mount Doom? At least in the later there were more exciting and interesting things to watch that may have caught Saurons eye, but Morgoth had no such excuse!
Well just to point out geladrial has spoken with gandolf before with thought alone and they do have allies with ability to see into the future. Point being its open for a reason so that we can have the fun and make the story ourselves a little and become apart of it instead of just reading it. Tolkien is the bar for master class in writing, also c.s.lewis.
@@visibleinmotion8881 different Ainur had different understandings and knowledge gifted from Eru Illuvatar and some understood that which would unfold (Manwe and Ulmo) better than others so the Ainur who did indeed follow Morgoth must have not understood, comprehended or saw how the world would largely unfold.
@@visibleinmotion8881 You know it's hard for me to gauge how the vision Eru presented to the Ainur relates to the actual course of history on Arda. Ea was completely empty when the Valar and Maiar entered it, there weren't even stars. They created the world by physical labour, bodily beings were not presented for at least thousands of years. So is this world free to evolve on its own and the vision only showed a vague and probable outcome, based on the intentions the Ainur stated through their music and what Eru knew about the nature of his children? Or is this world driven by this music, so that many events are destined to happen as it was written or sung? In one scenario, the music is the blueprint for an independently created universe, in the other, the music drives the events in the universe.
I personally lean more towards the former, but if you have some points to support the latter, I'm keen to hear them 😉
I just finished the lord of the rings trilogy last night for the thousandth time
Me too haha it's undying world that never gets old
Honestly, I highly prefer Gandalf in his Grey state. Don't get me wrong, the white is cool but it lost a bit of the badassery the first had. Not mentioning it's pretty similar to Saruman's appereance.
agree
I think it's easier for us to connect with him while he was still Gandalf the Grey, as he feels much more 'human'. :)
Aye same
I like both - the Grey is more friendly and relaxing, but the White is more powerfull, badass wizard actually doing more then few effects and fireworks on screen. Freeing Theoden, Light-scorching Uruks or Nazguls etc ... is quite cool. And he is sill witty and friendly, only the situation is dire and war is happening.
It happened to all of those characters - Aragorn, hobbits, Gimli, Legolas ... all of Fellowship learned a ton of things on their way(s) about each other and world and selfdeveloped much more they have ever imagined they will. Everyone is throwing away their old life and ways and change a lot - even Sam is changed, more brave and when he is returning, he just go and ask for Roses hand immediately, cause he knows what he wants and knows he is the one who needs to act.
The straightened hair looked terrible. I likes the grays curly wild hairdo much better.
As Gandalf the Grey, he was a match for Durin's Bane, something that few others could boast of in the Third Age (perhaps only Smaug, Sauron, Saruman, and the greatest Elves). If his full power as the White was as great as it appears, and only Sauron exceeded him in Middle Earth, it speaks to Eru Illuvatar's great trust in him -- that he'd proven himself to be truly faithful to his mission. Imagine having a great untapped power at your fingertips, but being under obligation to conceal and restrain it except in the most dire of need. They could just as easily have been sending down the next Enemy, should that power entice him to walk the easier route.
I wonder if as the White, Gandalf would have still been tempted by the One Ring? He never again stood in its presence, but if indeed he was closer to his true Maiar self, might he have feared its influence less? I suspect he would still have been wary of it, for he was still bound to a physical body and Sauron's power was still greater. Though perhaps he might have had a greater chance of mastering it after falling to its corruption, supplanting Sauron rather than recklessly delivering it to him.
I think he woud have actually been even more cautious around the ring as Gandalf the White, for this new emporement could prove to be a double edged sword if he was tempted and claimed the ring.
@@GeekZoneMT I suspect you're right. Given that Gandalf the Grey told Frodo his desire to wield the Ring (for good) would be too great for his strength, and given his confession to still being weaker than Sauron as the White, surely he'd be tempted to use it to bring victory in the darkest hours of the War of the Ring, when victory by sword and spear was all but impossible.
Though I am certain Gandalf would have mastered that temptation, just as he did with Frodo first suggested he take it the Shire.
The ring gave the power of command over men. That alone would lead its wielder towards becoming corrupted. The ring also contained much of Sauron's will, and would eventually dominate any who wore it.
Hey Valar Good job on those Maiar you sent. Seriously did they just pick names out of a hat or were those their best?
Eru: Ok middle earth is all but doomed so I’ll just send that Maiar back, better still nerf him though, don’t want ANOTHER turning evil.
Also, Tom Bombadill would whip that Balrog's ass. True pimp style.
I feel like this change was portrayed better in the book than it was onscreen
Yeah the movie is very ambiguous about his return. We're never even told who sent him back or what happened to him, it's almost like he passed out!
@@GeekZoneMT the books are 1,000 times better. I almost wished they would have held off a few years and done it with a TV series instead.... they would have been able to include Tom Bombadil, the coming of the Dunedain, even the Battle of Dale (even though that wasn't in the LOTR) ... they left out way too much... even with the Special Editions... maybe in 50 years when they decide to do a remake lol.
@V Toxica do yourself a favor and READ THEM :)
@V Toxica you should watch GeekZone's video on Tom Bombadil, I remember that was the last thing that pushed me to read them
The movies do quite a good job of depicting the change though. He has a different personality and presence which is left pretty vague in the books but really comes through in McKellan's performance.
I think beyond Gandalf’s transformation into the white wizard showing his replacement of Saruman, his transformation also symbolised purity (as white is typically used). Not only as Gandalf being resurrected in a more pure Maiar form, but also as him becoming the manifestation of what Saruman should have been, with one being corrupted and one being pure.
They all begin pure. Where they go from there is up to them. But if they stray too far from their path and purpose, they will be replaced, and having failed at their task, they will be no more than wandering spirits for the rest of time.
He just got some new clothes on Black Friday, what is simpler than that.
Great video, really loved it, keep up the good work man!
Cheers Kaan! Gandalf's got some sick sense of style! ;)
Gandalf was the only Wizard that even bothered trying to complete the mission. While Radagast was picking mushrooms and playing with hedgehogs, Gandalf convinced Thorin and Company to slay Smaug to secure the North against Sauron. While Saruman was making orc babies and pretending to be a lumberjack, Gandalf was fighting Balrogs and helping the Fellowship in their Quest. The two Blue wizards were nowhere to be seen or heard from. That is why I think he was sent back and with even greater powers than originally allowed.
He’s a lumberjack and he’s okay, he sleeps all night and he works all day...
He did his job well and got an instant promotion from the big boss himself, nice
Initially the blue wizards were likley the key players, I belive it was them that tipped the strategic balance aganst sauron in the lead up to the last alliance. It's more recently that the blue wizards turned to sauron and sauraman to himself.
Its hard to know how much Radagast did, for all we know he could have been lurking in the bushes not far from the main team the entire time. Saying "i never saw what the druid did so therefore they did nothing" seems not quite solid lol
@@jek__ Sure, but he never even bothered to show up after their victory 😂 he didn't help at all
"Tolkien made the wrong choice when he brought Gandalf back. He had a great death and the characters should have had to go without him" George. R. R. Martin.
We should be thankfull that it was Tolkien and not George Martin who wrote LOTR
I believe, we have a great wonder of how the reserection occured, and leaves the readers wondering. Just like john snow or lady stoneheart. The thought of a higher power in both universes are intriguing.
Ugh. He would say that.
My only problem with this, is if an elf of old can kill belrogs in the first age, than the great Maia Mithrandere would be able to kill one of these without being killed right? Or maybe it’s cuz Gandalf necessarily wasn’t a fighter but more of a guide with a few tricks up his sleeves, not a warrior by trade
@Kiss my axe right. Also the elves of earlier ages use to live in Valinor too if I remember correctly. So it would make sense they would have powers similiar to the Maia
the grey is already dead though. gandalf the white are technically a new person
not hating on Martin though. because i could see what he's trying to say
The point about Saruman/Gandalf the white has always bothered me. I had assumed it meant they were equal. But your argument makes sense, good video as always Carl!
Thanks Deano! Yeah I think it's a very common mistake since it's never really clearly :)
@@GeekZoneMT I think the only line that points to him replacing Saruman's position and not just getting on the same level is "'Indeed I am Saruman, one might almost say, Saruman as he should have been." I always got from that line that whoever Gandalf met when he died recognized the failure of Saruman and saw Gandalf as the best replacement and gave him a chance to go back. They could have send another Valar as a new Saruman but Gandalf was the most familiar with everything going on.
Gandalf is and always be THE one I look up to. His wisdom, kindness.... his ability to never let something, or someone, corrupt him, and his ability to ease those in distress, are all traits I admire, and he held on to those traits so much better than anyone I know. Thank you for this video GeekZone :)
I could never get enough GreekZone. Keep it up, and thank you for your work.
THANKS I've always wanted to go deeper in this, of what happened to our favourite Maia. Great as always Karl!
You're welcome Andrea! :)
Gandalf's transformation works on many levels, and represents different things depending on how you look at it. He can be seen as a messiah figure if that is what one chooses, or he can be seen as simply being "promoted" for lack of a better term. That is a part of the beauty and genius of Tolkien's works. Great writing leaves the ultimate answers to the reader.
I completely agree James!
Great lore my friend! Thank you! 🙏🏼👑
Sweet now I have something to watch during the commercials of the LOTR Marathon on BBC America 👍👍
There's no such thing as too much Lord of the Rings for one evening!! ;)
So, I'm not the only one!
👍😍
Thank you for your work on this. Enjoyed it very much!
Bro, as I remember, if im not mistaken, you already covered this topic , but the reason why im telling this is that your thoughts are much different in better way and quality of your work is much increased, well done , and thanks for these awsome videos. :)
You must be one of the OGs! ;) Yeah I want to remaster some of my older videos, as their quality is very subpar imo
Im chronically ill, and in a massive slump atm, basically cant do anything. Luckily i just finished reading all the books just before i deteriorated, and your videos have been a light in the dark in a strange way the last couple days. Its all i have managed to do inbetween feeling too sick to do anything.
Its been so long since i really saw the outside world and Tolkien's universe is becoming as real as this one to me in a really fuckin nice way
I know that feeling... hope your recovery starts soon 😘
similar thing happened to me, except i was in a deep rut of depression, binging lore videos like these helped to distract. now that that depression has passed ive returned to binging these lore videos again and it feels nice to look back at where i was and where i am now. hope after 3 years youve gotten better as well Escrublet, best wishes.
Dear Karl, thank you for this episode, I've found it quite interesting!
I am fan of this channel for over a year and LOTR universe since my young age. I have to admit that one of the reasons for following this channel is a way you are narrating the lore and the history of Arda, and also because of your voice and accent and way you pronunce some words and letters (especially letter L) which reminds me of some elvish accent or influence, and I find it quite melodical and soothing. For that reason today I was searching some information about you, and found your episode that's called "Meet the geek", that I somehow missed. When I found out that you are from Malta, immediatly I realised that this is the reason for the way you talk. I was living in a convent in Jerusalem (I am franciscan friar), and my formator, fr. Noel Muscat was from Malta. We spoke in italian mostly, but also in english when it was possible. He also has this super nice way of pronuncing letter L, and also calm and soothing voice like yours. I am planing on visiting him on Malta first thing possible (after Covid19), and really hope to be able to greet you for at least 5 minutes. And also I ask, could you make a video on Middle Earth languages and alphabets? Thank you for bringing the world of Arda closer to us, and I send greetings from Croatia! Namárië!
Hey man first of all I appreciate your kinds words and your support it really means a lot to me! It's also cool to hear your story as I'm always surprised when people have some connection with Malta since we're such a tiny place 😄 I've considered organising small community meet ups some time, though so far I feel that it'a healthier for me to draw a clear line between my channel and real life, as it takes up so much of my time that I would a place where I can cut away from it for a while and enjoy other things :) However this might change in the future, especially if my schedule becomes less intense, and if so, it would be awesome to meet you all sometime. 😁
@@GeekZoneMT Thank you for your response, It's really nice to see how you care for fans of this channel! I support you in your decision to separate your private life from your work, but always know that there are a lot of people that support you in your kind work, which I consider that you enjoy working very much! And may Eru bless you in all of your efforts! Greetings from Croatia to Malta! :-)
Great video answered many questions that I've long had 👍
Cheers Susanne! :)
Love it! Keep up that volume! A cool topic would be how some maiar reflect the traits of the ainur they serve... I always found it kind of strange how curumo and sauron both served aule.. aule was the only other ainur who disobeyed eru besides Melkor, but not with evil intentions but it so happens that both his maiar that served him rebelled
Cheers Jacob! Yeah I was actually planning to cover that in a broad discussion on the Ainur :)
@@GeekZoneMT what can I say brilliant minds think alike, especially LOTR nerds
Thank you for the nice content, been having a blast watching trough since I've found you. Your calm voice is realy suited for narating this epic lore.
I have been wondering about the great egles and Gwahir their king ever since I read the books for the first time. Where do they come from, are they servants to the Valar? or perhaps native "beasts" that have been allied, maybe like "sentient horses"? Please consider explaining them and their faith in on of your future videos. Cheers!
I personally think Illuvitar may have heightened Gandalf above his Maiar form and chose him as a possible first to be changed from a Lesser to a Greater, IE transformed from Maiar into a Valar, for the deeds he had done and the commitment to his task. Gandalf always stayed true to his task, lead the peoples where he could and always walked in the light to the very end of his days. A true warrior of Illuvitar and his creation. And if Illuvitar intervened to begin with, I doubt it was just for a simple resurrection. My theory is that he was summoned to the Timeless Halls to be ascended above what he was. Power and grace to match the spirit within.
That is why I hate when the witch king broke his staff in the ROTK, I think is stupid. The Nazgul couldn`t do that
Sauron gave power to the Witch King and Sauron had the power of Morgoth in him ...well not all of it but still
@@joose9748 fair point.
@@joose9748 but Gandalf was revived with bigger power by Eru Iluvatar and Eru Iluvatar as the highest God is more powerful than Sauron and Morgoth
The staff is just a tool made in the world (by the elves) which being part of the world is limited and corrupted by Morgoth. It just helps the wizards focus their power, it doesn't mean that the Witchking is more powerful overall, just that in the fallen world Gandalf does have limitations due to the fallen corporeal nature of the world.
Something or someone breaking his staff is nothing more special than breaking a sword or a bow
I will forever believe that when Gandalf died he drifted to the realm of Eru Iluvatar and everything he had seen and heard was discussed. Iluvatar knew already everything but was testing Gandalf. Knowing that Gandalf had stayed true to his mission he sent him back, more powerful than before.
Can you make long lore videos. Going really into the depth of certain battles, characters or even realms. I think it would be really informative and exciting to watch.
Either way i love the content and will not be mad if I don’t get my 1 hour video. I just think it’d be really interesting.
I'm thinking he spirit _could_ have went to the Undying Lands but he himself wouldn't want that and if it was possibly he would get back to the Fellowship, apparently the Valar agreed with his spirit and sent him back to Middle Earth!
Great videos Carl keep em coming brother
To be fair I think Tolkien made it quite clear that Iluvatar sent his spirit back and empowered him :) However it is interesting to wonder if his spirit would have been able to return to the Undying Lands, or if it would be turned aside as a 'failure'
@@GeekZoneMT In my opinion I don't think his spirit would be ousted for not accomplishing this task. I think spiritually he was solid as a rock and was not tempted by evil or dark thoughts...
And again, in my opinion, I think that is all that counts when being judged by the Valar!!!!
I wonder how Gandalf would do if he was sent to the east instead of one of the blue wizards, would he fail like them, or not?
hmmm that's quite an interesting question. I feel that the wizards visited the lands in which they thought they could do most good or have a big effect. After all they had different characters, and some of them might have had more influence in certain lands over others. So perhaps Gandalf might have had a better chance of remaining true to his mission in the East, but he might have also had a lesser impact in the process.
@@GeekZoneMT That is most certainly a what if scenario that might be worthy of delving through, if the blue magi and Gandalf exchanged places.
@@GeekZoneMT Gandalf in particular seemed to enjoy the company of Hobbits. I wonder if that was part of his choice? I wonder if he saw their resistance to corruption as a key or simply enjoyed their aloof, simple, lifestyles. Pure conjecture, on my part, as im not really well read on the universe but still fun to think about.
There is the chance that the blue wizards didn’t fail and because of them the men from the East that joined Sauron were far less.
@@redhammer92 I think he appreciated their humility and his foresight told him that they would have a role to play, so he bonded with them for practical reasons and genuine affection, too. Now foresight is tricky here though, because it was Gandalf's actions that caused the Hobbits to become more active. If your vision becomes true partly because of your actions, is it still foresight? 😅
Gandalf is my favorite character, really interested in the roll the wizards staff has if youre able to do a short vid someday!
My absolute favorite TH-cam channel!!!
Thanks Mitchell, that's one awesome compliment ;)
4:30 …and Jackson’s depiction of this action was one of the finest moments in the movies, for the sheer scale, beauty and the notion of unbridled power being unleashed not as might, but as light.
The idea that Eru, the supreme deity that created everything, brought Gandalf back from death to aid the side of good is heartening like nothing else.
That was such a good video
While reading the books I sensed that every time someone defeated another being they grew in power [so to speak] in part based on the power of their foe. A maiar fell to another maiar Great power was passed . Illuvitar did not call Oromi to his halls. But the mental place that is Eru . there he told Oromi to complete his mission. Sort of a wake up call before he died in Middle Earth .
I do not recall a single time two maiar directly fought, outside of the brief skirmish between Saruman and Gandalf and the battle between Gandalf and Durin's Bane. The latter of which resulted in a power boost because Gandalf was transformed by Eru. Such a conflict probably happened between Balrogs and Maiar during the battles with Melkor before the coming of the Quendi to Valinor or during the War of Wrath, but it is never explicitly stated to have happened.
@@sithlordzach8418 The closest thing to such fight besides Gandalf against the Balrog was the confrontation between the half-Maiar Luthien{Melian was her mother} and Huan on one side and Sauron.Sauron was defeated not really fallen and no power was transferred so to speak. On other hand Sauron did lost something of his own powers every time when he suffered defeat.
@@sithlordzach8418 Gandalf got the Solo XP from the boss fight
Another place Gandalf the White actually utilized his full power, were at the pyre of Denethor. He quickly leaps up and carries Faramir in the dire moment. This video was one of your best Karl!
I notice a lot of people say that they don't like Gandalf the white, in the movies and that he changed way too much. I think that as Gandalf the grey, he had already done everything needed to guide the fellowship and that him taking charge more as the white was needed in all the heavy conflicts
Yeah it was a necessary progression, a more powerful force of good was required at that point!
Of the various Tolkien channels on TH-cam, I find yours the best.
Is that the Total War: Warhammer II soundtrack in the background? Never knew it fit so well with LOTR. Great video!
Their is so much wisdom in lotr
Great video
Fantastic analysis as always! It's really impressive and enjoyable how you go into the theoretical depth and leverage letters and other references, too. Then adding your own thoughtful and insightful comments really elevates these videos beyond simply a summary--it becomes an in-depth discussion. One of the best Middle Earth YT channels for these reasons!
This channel is amazing.
Execlent video, as always! I was wondering if you could make a video about how middle earth would have looked like if Sauron won against the free peoples? Don't know if there would have been any difference if he won in the War of the Last Alliance or the War of the Ring. What would have happened with men, the elves, hobbits, etc? What would he do with the orcs and his armies after they fulfilled their purpose? How would Middle Earth look like? Did he have plans for Aman and Valinor or he just didn't care about the undying lands? Would the Valar have intervened if Sauron was succesful in defeating the elves and men or they didn't want to risk another "War of Wrath-type" cataclysm? Those are questions I would love to know if there is any interesting answer.
Also, I was always fascinated by the Two Lamps. I know the Trees are cool and all, but the Lamps seem so much misterious an ancient... If you could mention the Lamps in a video or make a video about them I would love that aswell.
Anyways, thanks for the great videos! Keep up the great work! =D
Having only seen the films, I’m very thankful for this explanation, and for having found this channel. Though I _knew_ he was more powerful after becoming Gandalf the White, I didn’t really _feel_ that he was.
This is a really cool aspect I never knew about. Makes me wish that at some point in the series we'd been able to see Gandalf actually fight and use his full power, not just with a light beam.
Cool! A very nice movie :D As always :)
Thanks buddy! :)
Embrace the power of the ring or embraced your own destruction so you have chosen death
Go home Saruman, you've lost already >:(
@@GeekZoneMT No he havent failed tis Just a flesh wound
Saruman! Your Staff Is Broken! And you are no longer an Istari.
Don't worry saruman... You can always fall back to you using your sith powers as count dooku, the istari are no match for the power of the dark side
@@leejamesmccarthy I'll just get some Hobbit a toad weed
This was actually one of my favorite points of the story. This is the only confirmed divine intervention we see in the story, and Tolkien framed Gandalf as the only truly good character, one that was still fallible choice, but never fallible in intent. Gandalf was the only one who was acutely driven to fulfill his task, and at the same time had a love for what made Middle Earth truly beautiful. I believe Gandalf was an insight into Tolkien's own thoughts on the world he created, as well as Tolkien's own views of his god the and world he experienced around him. In some ways, Gandalf was the classic hero's journey of the the entirety of the hobbit and the LotR.
Hi Rick! I admire your passion but some of the things you write here are just not true. Gandalf's resurrection is not the only confirmed divine intervention.
- Faramir was sent visions by the Valar.
- Boromir was sent visions by the Valar.
- Valar helps Frodo and Sam in Shelob's cave.
- Eru Iluvitar nudges Gollum into the fiery pit in mount doom.
There might be more, but these where the only ones i can come up with.
Saying that Gandalf was the only one that was acutely driven to fulfill his task is a highly subjective opinion which many might disagree with.
Many characters where damn persistent in the tasks they where given or perceived to have had. Perhaps Sam most notable of all of them. Sticking with Frodo and literally carrying both Frodo and his burden on his back while also resisting the temptation of the ring. He even put the damn thing on for a good while when he got separated from Frodo and was still determined to finish the quest even though he thought his master had passed. Gandalf barely tutched the ring once and understood that he could not bare it because he was so afraid he might succumb to its lure.
I hope this is not to heavy on you and if i got something wrong please let me know :-)
Have a great day!
ps. Please edit your comment, some of it is just not true. And sorry for the spelling mistakes, I'm dyslectic.
@@ysteinellingsen5692 Divine intervention is from the highest of God's, Eru. Gandalf was the only one who received such. I don't remember him judging Smeagol but I could be wrong
Another wonderful video.
Karl, do you think there's enough material in Tolkien's legendarium to do a video about the Vanyar Elves? Could they speak the language of the Valar? Were they all Calaquendi?
Thanks Max! Yeah I think there's definitely enough material to create an interesting video, though I feel that it's best to discuss such a topic after we explore a bit more of the Silmarillion :)
As the grey, Gandalf wandered, learned what he could, interacted with the various races, proved himself a good advisor and friend. As for change...when he returned as the white, he had to relearn what he had learned, but his essential character was still intact. But even he realized the difference, between what had gone before and what had come..."I am the most dangerous..." He understood he was on a far, far greater level than he had been before, and he wasn't shy about pronouncing that to those around him. I don't believe his core compassion and his determination to stay true to his mission were altared a whit, but he knew that it had all changed. And he was willing to admit that. What I wonder is....did Gandalf the white find it more, or less challenging, to act as leader to the flawed and rancorous races of middle earth given his enormous upgrade?
I am enamored by your narration; I'm going to start reading the Children of Húrin now!
Thanks, this really did help me to understand what actually happened to Gandalf, as it was a bit nonsensical before in my mind.
Very Good!
I feel that Gandalf (Olorin) was indeed recalled by Eru because has he simply returned to Valinor, he would have recognized it. Seeing that Saruman failed in his mission, Olorin was revived, given more of his angelic power and sent back as Gandalf the White
Tremendous video
Cheers Mark!
Excellent analysis which captures the difference. He was definitely more powerful than Saruman ever was, a step change. I am continually amazed by the depth of Tolkien's thought, the breadth of his articulation of the characters, their characteristics and capabilities and how it is all woven into this wonderful tale which progressively hangs on the thread between doom and triumph.
The deepest revelation of Tolkien's thought. Eru Iluvatar's intervention in Gandalf's death shows the importance of Middle Earth. "Naked" is being sent back without an ego.
Let's not forget how great a job Ian McKellan did at portraying the change in personality from Gandalf the Grey to Gandalf the White. You really feel that this is the same person but with the dust blown off and the cobwebs cleared out, and sort of elevated in stature. His voice is clearer and more immediate. Personally I like the Grey much more, but the performance is as it should be and very true to the books.
Can you do a video about the Endless Stair from Moria , I think it is a great subject to discuss since it played quite a big role during the fight between Gandalf and Balrog, also cuz there are many questions to answear about it.
So Gandalf is a hybrid stamina magika sorcerer, staff and sword, pretty cool:D
Nice art.
he was definitely different, but just expanded. i think the films showed that well. as for saruman, once he called himself the many-colored, he lost power to arrogance, which might have otherwise made him equal to gandalf the white. maybe. probably not.
In my opinion he didn't change his character but got increased his power and ability of clairvoyance.
love lotr lore videos, great for sleeping
I'm glad I could help in some way :D
I just signed up, your interpretation of the writings is so similar to mine, it should be fun watching all your stuff :-)
I also enjoyed greatly Gandalfs return part of the story and what an amazing story it is.
I kind of feel a lot of latitude is given for inconsistencies relating to Gandalf and the wizards.
- They weren't allowed much power originally, but Gandalf took control of Theoden with his higher power that Saruman had already taken with his original and "lower power". Old Gandalf enchants Barleyman's beer: that seems pretty "interfering". And if I'm not mistaken, "lower power" Saruman sends his voice all the way from Isengard to Caradhras and calls an enchanted blizzard and rockfalls (or parleys with the mountain spirit to do so if you want to read it like that). That seems pretty mighty power, compared with anything we ever see Gandalf doing.
- Gandalf seems very much in awe of his own foresight, but much of it is only announced or excused after the event. Saruman seems to pull the wool over his eyes on various occasions: when he persuaded the white council that Sauron had not returned as well as when he was persuaded by 'innocent Radagast' to go to a trap in Isengard. He declares that he would have detected any lie in Radagast, but I doubt many readers hadn't suspected him earlier on much less evidence presented to them at that time.
- Most of the powers that Gandalf does show seem to be associated with his elven ring and "being a servant of the secret fire"... his proclivity with fireworks to some ability in making fires, to his commands to the balrog have all been associated with these separate power sources.
I dunno... it just doesn't seem that in any of the stories of the wizards' power, the talk matches the walk.
Saruman also crafted himself a ring that he was wearing when he and Gandalf have their confrontation inside Orthanc, when Saruman reveals his evil intent. So maybe that increased his power of control over others, allowing him to control Théoden.
Like it says how Sauron poured a portion of himself and his power into the One in order to forge it, so maybe it's like a "re-spec" in a video game where Sauron and Saruman gave up some of their other powers in order to craft their respective rings which in turn gave them greater raw power and control of others.
I really would like to see a video about the strongest orcs (movies & Books)
I really wish we could have seen Gandalf vs. The witch-king of angmar in action
When Gandalf said there is weapons that can harm him I think it alludes to that Eru himself cast his favour about him, so long as he says true to the will of Eru.
LotR is basically another version of the story of the battle between the Archangels Lucifer and Michael (Sauron & Gandalf)
Hey, I was wondering - could you possibly do a video on how modern weapons might affect different beings/races/creatures from Middle Earth?
"fly you fools"
The phrase that led to so much confusion within the fandom 😂
* Smokes halfling's leaf *
Can't wait until we see gandalf level up again, Gandalf the RGB
Gandalf was attacked, by all 3 of them when they first meet in the dark forest.
Aragon drew his sword, legolas shot a arrow and gemly threw his ax all at the same time and Gandalf made Aragon sword turn to fire and destroyed the ax and arrow all instantaneously
Big question who would cry to hear if they made The Silmarillion movie?
Someone needs to set the record strait: The Witch King never broke Gandalf's staff (as portrayed in the films). I believe that was a nod to the video games that were earmarked. Gandalf, the White, could've simply banished the Nazgûl.
I always thought Saruman was denied by the West because he _betrayed_ his mission, not because he failed. He committed so many crimes and cruelties. That's so much worse than being killed or defeated. I'm disappointed to learn of Tolkien's attitude about that.
Well Tolkien implies that it might be considered a failure, but it's not totally confirmed. I know what you mean though, I feel like it would be really unfair on Gandalf considering he was so dedicated to his mission and always gave his 100%!
He was more glorfindel like, more ancient raw power but his old personality came back just more confident this time
Gandalf respawned on the battlefield with a level up from the side quest! Awesome character
I always thought Gandalf was sent back because out of all of the wizards he was the only one that stuck to the task of helping people in Middle Earth, So when he was sent back he was given power equal of all 5 wizards combined to help him since Radagast became a bit of a recluse, Saruman went rogue and the two blue wizards disappeared.
Finally!
Bro hit the Pokémon evolution
6:25. This is in contrast to Peter Jackson's depiction of Gandalf as a frail old wizard whose power is insignificant to the Nazgul lord.
Never understood this thought process. The nazgul power is directly connected to the dark lords. Further more at best they broke a staff (which gandalf him self did just to break the bridge on the right against the balrog) the spell wasn't a super ultimate move, gandalf would do far more tougher spells and other things with a staff. The staffs are middle earth creations, they can be broken cause they are NOT tied to the power of the weilder but the material they are made of.
So it's not about him being stronger or not..it's about the witch king being able to break what ever wood the staff was made of.
Is this a re-upload? I say it's better than the original.
Worse thing about people like morgoth and showing maiar & valar at their full power is that you cant put it in moves. It will just look like Godzilla destroying mountains and buildings and look shit.
It is heavily hinted at that Melkor caused the KT extinction.
Agreed, the Valar pretty much broke the world when they intervened directly against Morgoth. After that, they were only allowed to support indirectly. So even the lesser Maiar who were sent to Middle Earth had their powers limited and were meant to guide, not command the free peoples.
Thanks for ure page
I did love Gandalf, Grey or White, but loved him the most as Gandalf the Grey
I loved how Ian based his performance as Gandalf off Tolkien himself. Adds an element to it that Tolkien himself would have enjoyed. Just my opinion though.
Oh had he mentioned that in some interview? If so it would have certainly been awesome! :)
Gandalf represented hope, when he fell in Moria Aragorn said "We must do without hope" and when Gandalf the White appeared he said "Beyond all hope you have returned" I'm not sure I got the words exactly right but the general idea is there.
Also, when Frodo put on the ring and Sauron was closing in on his position it was Gandalf's return that made Sauron's eyechange direction