The mother's spirit actually does go into her child when she is pregnant. Feanor drained his mother. Usually, the mothers are busy raising their child and recovering from the drain, which is one reason why elves take so long to procreate. But unfortunately in Feanor's case, he drained his mother so much that she was unable to recover and died. It takes a long time to heal and recover from things even in Valinor. Like thousands of years. Elves also don't marry and most certainly do not have children during times of war. In rare cases where elves do marry during war, they forsake tradition and do a very quick vow and bind themselves. But they wait to have children until it is safe to do so. Since pregnancy is very hard on the mother especially with her spirit going into her child, it would be too dangerous during times that would risk their lives and their child's. (Also, elves die easily of a broken heart, so the death of a mother and especially a child would be too much). In LOTR, it was during a time of war, which would make since why there are no children around. In the Hobbit, they're probably there, but since the story is focused somewhere else, there is really no need to add children in. Another thing to factor in, by the time of third age, the elves were fading. The magic and power that kept them strong was pretty much gone. They had to start leaving for the Undying Lands. This could possibly have dramatically reduced the number of children being born since they didn't have enough strength and will to do so.
@@dorothypozi543 Miriel did not died "in childbirth", she died "post partum". And in elvish society a developing child takes a lot from his father's spirit too, not only from his mother. Feanor was so over-powered in spirit-power by his mother [and yes, she over-powered him deliberately and then in life or death simply refused to face him] he had had enough to provide for his 7 sons - as the stronger an elf is in spirit, the more children s/he can afford to have...
@@Chociewitka What do you mean by "and then in life or death simply refused to face him"? I am not familiar with his story, can I find it in the Silmarillion? (I really have to finally read that book)
@@lukrezialaval2406 Well, first she died and refused reembodiment, but when Feanor was doomed to die and end up in Mandos sooner or later by the Doom of Mandos, she suddenly wanted out of Mandos and back into her body again! Feanor would stay in Mandos untill the end of the world and she was clearly set on not meeting him ever again, neither in life nor in death. Or, more graciously: Feanor was her ultimate artwork, at which completion she retired, leaving her art to speak for herself, but seeing that masterpiece of hers banned, she was in need to create other art to express herself...
@@Makkaru112 does that mean it was fine for him to rape/marry her? This was definitely one of the darkest parts of Tolkien's work, no need to defend it. Eol was definitely not a good guy.
Wow that's impressive. I can understand that passion for something, as I'm very passionate myself, when I get into something that catches my interest, it's very hard to take my focus until I finish it.
I wouldn't be surprised if a lore explanation is that the elven children are kept in the most protected areas. Due to their low reproductive rate, i am sure losing children would likely be a catastrophic thing to happen. likely, unlike the adults, the children don't have the option to come back or something
The spirit would just go to the Halls of Mandos, maybe they would get bumped to the front of the line for reincarnation as they do not have a tremendous number of events in their life to reflect upon. That would also be part of the mercy of Mandos. Much that goes on in the Halls of Mandos is reflection upon the life that you had lived and reconciling those events. I can see where maybe the Vala would refrain from sending reincarnated souls back to Middle Earth and instead prefer for them to be reborn in the Undying Lands. It may take a special circumstance between Mandos and maybe in council with the rest of the Vala to return a soul to Middle Earth.. The soul would probably need to insist upon it because of long family bonds. Otherwise sending reincarnated souls to Middle Earth might be looked upon as a form of punishment.
It’s also just a statistical problem: if humans live to roughly 100, then (very roughly) 10% of humans should be under 10. But if elves live to, say, 10 thousand years old, then only one-tenth of 1% of elves would be under 10. Elf children are just statistically more rare than human children.
I always thought that the elves forewent with bearing children since the beginning of the third age because of their wanting to return to Valinor and that the world had grown too bitter for them to ever want to raise a family is such a world of dispair. A lot of the elves at the end of the third age were survivors of war of the previous ages and would not want to go to another war, thus their reluctance in the last war of Middle-Earth was fought almost entirely of Men, except when defending their homelands. I don't know if that was my own belief or that was implicit in Tolkien's writings.
@@Saber23idk where you got that but we need to stop glorifying contract marriages and marriages the spouses had literally no say in. They may seem "loving" but it's literally just because they know they have no choice in the matter and make the best of it. Also it's not majority loving it's more often than not patriarchal and abusive
@@animanga103 no shit its patriarchal 🤣 all healthy marriages are inherently patriarchal and no patriarchal don’t synonymous with “abusive” people like you are the reason marriage has collapsed in the West and also you do have a choice in arranged marriages at least where I’m from but even if you don’t love usually follows you can’t logically come here and say “oh it’s because they have no choice” you can’t see into their brains nor is that a polling option so you need to go off if the evidence available while leaving your SJW shit at the door
@@animanga103 no shit its patriarchal 🤣 all healthy marriages are inherently patriarchal and no patriarchal don’t synonymous with “abusive” people like you are the reason marriage has collapsed in the West and also you do have a choice in arranged marriages at least where I’m from but even if you don’t love usually follows you can’t logically come here and say “oh it’s because they have no choice” you can’t see into their brains nor is that a polling option so you need to go off if the evidence available while leaving your SJW shit at the door
@@animanga103 no shit its patriarchal 🤣 all healthy marriages are inherently patriarchal and no patriarchal don’t synonymous with “abusive” people like you are the reason marriage has collapsed in the West and also you do have a choice in arranged marriages at least where I’m from but even if you don’t love usually follows you can’t logically come here and say “oh it’s because they have no choice” you can’t see into their brains nor is that a polling option so you need to go off if the evidence available while leaving your SJW shit at the door
Elven mothers can die post-birth if the child drains too much of their energy, since elven mother's spirit goes into her child. It takes hundreds or thousands of years to recover. For the father, loosing a child or partner is also dangerous, as elves can die of heartbreak in addition to violent death. I think all these reasons combined are why elves do not take having children lightly and only do so under ideal circumstances.
I think the reason there are no elven children is linked to the issue of the elves fading while men grow stronger. Perhaps they're not having kids anymore at all, and that's part of the problem. They no longer have any desire to create new life in Middle-Earth, as their souls are drawn irrevocably to the West. Or maybe they even can't... some design of the Valar to bring an end to gather them all back to Valinor.
When I thought about the question the first thing that came to mind was the time of the elves was ending so no children had been born. I would think that if the higher powers were telling me that it was time to come home, not allowing more children to be born would be a sign.
The Silmarillion says that she "was not wholly unwilling." He may have come on pretty strong, but she did in fact consent to join with him in physical union, hence they were married.
@@susand2729I got the sense she just kind of went along with the marriage because she was lost (because of his spells), and he was the only dude around, like she settled for him. Maybe that’s why their son grew up to be a tool. It wasn’t a solid love marriage.
Elrond was a half elf half human child, all grown up. But I think it was mentioned that they were leaving Middle Earth at the time of the war of the one ring. Maybe even by Bilbo’s time they had been leaving or secluding themselves from Middle Earth. Maybe by the time of Frodo the children had been sent away. And even though they were not mentioned by Tolkien there may well have been some children in the Wood Elf kingdom and Lothlorien. Tolkien never said they did not exist there.
That's kinda what I always thought. With the elves already leaving and with signs of the War of the Ring, it'd make sense that they would've sent all the children and expecting mothers off on the ships West for safety.
I dont think I can even handle 9. No children for me, my mother would say you would want it when the years come by ,instead the more I grow up the less I want. It was 2 when I was in high school,got down on 1 in uni,got down to none after the uni
I just absolutely love Tolkien’s elven lore. I could read and listen and learn about them for hours. The rich culture, dignity, beauty I just can’t get enough!
The reason we don't see any elven children is the kind of Elves we are exposed to by Tolkien. We are told about elven lords and ladies, and the other elves in the stories are their servants and courtiers "at work". Even if the servants have children, they will not bring them along when they are performing their duties. We are told more about 5 elves: Elrond, Arwen, Galadriel, Celeborn and Legolas. Legolas is the heir to Thranduil's throne and although he is much older than the rest of the Fellowship (except Gandalf), he's on a younger side of elves and hasn't married yet. Galadriel is the oldest, born in Valinor before the fall of the Two Trees. She and Celeborn had a child long long ago. Elrond is the twin brother of Elros, the first king of Numenor and Aragorn's very distant ancestor. He was born in the First Age. His wife was Galadriel and Celeborn's only daughter, but she died a long time ago at the hands of orcs. Elrond's three children, sons Elrohir and Elladan as well as daughter Arwen are all grown up. Elrohir and Elladan are busy keeping Rivendell safe and working together with the Rangers to protect the Northern lands. They haven't had time for romance. And we all know Arwen is bethrothed to Aragorn but is not allowed to marry a mortal unless he's the King of both Gondor and Arnor. In other words, we meet elven lords and ladies who are grandparents or parents of grown children. And the younger generation elves we get to know have a role to play in the war against Sauron and are postponing marriage because of it.
Its nice to know that in truth the mother is not drained spiritually and like all spiritual beings coming or going from physical incarnations, their spirit is eternally intact and unique to them as individuations of God, as in extensions of, and unable to be contaminated or damaged. The only thing the mother offers in respect to birth is the creation of the temporary physical body, and even that is the choice of the spirit coming in to choose the dna and certain genetics that apply to the experiences they want in order to expand their knowledge in experiences, the rest being an extension into physical of their own spirit. The mother's physical body serves somewhat like a portal, and she is not a sacrifice as Tolkien has written here as part of his Christian upbringing and the necessity of sacrifices within that ideology.
As you are using Laws and Customs*, Elves seem to be considered 'mature' at 50 years, though some might not attain full growth until 100 ("Not until the fiftieth year did the Eldar attain the stature and shape in which their lives would afterwards endure, and for some a hundred years would pass before they were full-grown."). Should also note that these 'years' seem to refer to the Valian or Tree Years, which are 9.586 Sun years. The much longer pregnancy lengths in the various essays in NoMe seem to have been abandoned in favour of a 'normal' length pregnancy (up to one (solar) year). The 'Cycles of Life' don't really seem to fit with L&C. *In later essays as published in Nature of Middle-earth and in Vinyar Tengwar Tolkien has different lengths of time for becoming an adult, some much longer ( nearly 3000 years), others include about 216-288 years, 72 years and 24 years (sun years).
well, elves just "happen" to fall in love and marry appropriately according to their own social standing - even Eol was a kinsman of Thingol - you can have "inter-racial" marriages among elves but you never see "inter-rank" ones - nobility only ever marries nobility... high-nobility only marries high-nobility - but we are told by the text that elves marry only "for love" so this happening is depicted as "purely coincidental" - that they repeatedly "just happen" to marry their 2nd or 3rd cousins of similar social standing...
Why the fuck are you using so much of “this” shit 🤣 and also what is this garbled mess you’ve spit out? You’re overcomplicating shit that doesn’t need to be
@@mrsphatsakk420 Elrond was upset about Arwen and Aragorn because he was going to lose his beloved daughter forever. By marrying Aragorn, she would have to give up her elven eternal life. She would become mortal and die. Her soul would go where the mortal souls go to, but that is not where elven souls go to. Elrond decreed that Arwen would not be allowed to marry a lesser mortal than the King of both Gondor and Arnor. That way, if Elrond were to lose his daughter, at least that would mean that Sauron is defeated. That would be a poor consolation to him, but it would be a good reason for the sacrifice. Should Aragorn fail and not become king, Elrond would take his daughter with him to Valinor
Feanor&nerdanel and fingolfin&anaire refute what you say. Fëanor and Fingolfin were princely brothers, but Nerdanel was a blacksmith's daughter and Anaire was only a Noldo. Still, you are relatively right in what you say, but there was an exception to this.
@@violetpunk well, if Feanor was learning under Mahtan, Mahtan was for sure of nobility, as he was a pupil of Aule himself. Even if Mahtan were no nobility by birth he for sure became one due to having been a Vala's pupil. Anairë was the bosom friend of the Telerin princes Earwen, her being a simple rank Noldo to be a bestie of a Telerin king's daughter is also not very likely. Also the name "Anairë" means "holiest" so she was someone close to the Valar herself, maybe a child dedicated to their service in her youth. Nobility can be acquired and in Valinor being close to and especially blessed by the Valar could confer it.
Human woman has finite number of eggs, and therefore around like 50 she basically cannot have more children (men can theoretically have children till their death). So elven woman probably has the same issue here. She just probably has periods not every month but like every 10 years or so. Elves from Witcher franchise has this problem, that only young elves can have children.
It's not the number, it's the quality. A woman has hundreds of thousands of egg cells, only a few of which will ever mature, but unlike male sperm, which are continuously being produced, a woman is born with all her eggs already there inside her. This means that all the negative environmental influences build up as she ages and leave most of the eggs unviable by her early 40s. This is why men's fertility decreases much less with age than women's, and why freezing her eggs while still young can allow an older woman to have a successful pregnancy.
Arwen saw her future child when she was leaving to go to the Undying Lands. She then changed her mind and stayed behind. This is the only time you see a elven child
Sorts of. They are, in temperament and virtue, what we could have been but for original sin. But like the poster above said, humans were always meant to be mortal.
Not really. They have a lot of gifts and virtues, but they’re still capable of awful behavior. Look how much grief was caused by Feanor and his sons. They also get reincarnated.
@@CordeliaWagner1999 lol how is that working out for Western society? IT ISN’T 😂 good God go fix your familial problems if you’re this stupid bud, yes you can have connections but the connection between family is the most important and every shred of possible evidence proves this
Pretty much the only races where children are seen in LotR or The Hobbit are human and hobbit. Elves, orcs, dwarves, ents, etc. have children but they’re not in any of the places where the main characters go during the stories.
@@animanga103 when the fuck did I say that? I’m saying looking for unattainable ideals is impractical because your partner will never be able to fulfill them, it’s one of the reasons pornography destroys your ability to have genuine intimacy, although this obviously isn’t nearly as bad as pornography
@@Saber23 everything you say screams "i am unloved and bitter" because it's not idealistic at all to want a loving and dedicated partner for life 😂 also the immediate attitude says you're probably not even old enough to get married without a parents permission. Just chill out and keep your bitterness to yourself 😂
Arwen was not that young nor the youngest by much, Arwen was 2700, Legolas was 2931. So both were born just after the third age began. Edited to add Elladan and Elrohir, Arwen's brothers, are 2988, also born just after the third age began.
In the movies, yeah. In the books you can notice age differences in elves based on life experience and weight of responsibility. An elven carpenter who has never seen war or conflict may be the same at the age of 150 as he would be at the age of 500. But someone who had to fight battles, carry the guilt of things he could have done better and lead a large number of people will show signs other than physical age of everything they've been through. They had older actors in those roles since younger ones just can’t portray the necessary gravity and resignation of those roles as well as an older person can.
@@evilsharkey895420,000 plus years. And that translates to 180,000. Older than the sun and moon. Time flowed differently at the zenith of the world too. I can explain it more deeply if you want. ❤
@@evilsharkey8954There are different measurements of time at the beginning of Arda depending on the source of light for the world. First there were the two lamps, which Morgoth knocked over. Then there were the two Trees, again destroyed by Morgoth. Then Varda finally got smart and hung the light source in the heavens where Morgoth couldn't reach, and thus the sun and the moon became the standard for measuring the passing of days and years. But for the lamps and the Trees, their day and year cycles were longer and thus equate to many more Years of the Sun.
The only, only, only reason I can imagine anybody might have a right to downvote this video is if they've found a lore-factual error. Not only is the material beautiful, the presentation of this was as well. @InkandFantasy I am still new / early / young in my Tolkien exploration. I do not know if it would be feasible or possible; but with these videos, is it possible to have a subtitle or footnote or something so a reference to the chapter/title of the source material is visible, please?
Thank you for the kind words!! I’ll try to add more sources in the future, and for this video specifically the vast majority of information comes from Morgoth’s Ring regarding the Laws and Customs among the Eldar!
@@cecilyerkertrue. But the appearance of polygamy in the Bible doesn't mean the Bible supports it. After all, it is also an account of people in the past and their livilihood.
I'm a writer and I want to quote Tolkien in my book, and it would be fair use but I'm still afraid of the Tolkien estate's lawyers. How do youtubers like yourself get to quote copyrighted material (hell, even Tolkien's name is copyrighted) and not get sued? Is the estate more reasonable than I expected?
I don’t think stuff like that falls under the category of copyright, certainly in the context of videos at least, though I would imagine the same would apply for a book. For example, I’ve seen dozens of written works on Tolkien himself and his stories, analyses and whatnot, and they don’t seem to have a problem!
@@InkandFantasy Specifically I'd be including two quotes: one from Letter 19, and another from a speech he gave at Oxford U. Altogether the word count between the two is only about 70 words. Used for purposes of analysis and critique, to support larger arguments being built in the book. I know I'd have a good argument in court, but what's holding me back is that the estate lawyers could just be feeling saucy one day and call me into court just to maintain precedent and punish me with court fees. They've done it to fanfic writers, haven't they (I'm not talking about Polychron, that guy picked a fight with them)? Thanks for your input! And don't worry, you have it here in writing that I'm not gonna hold you liable for giving legal advice if they do come to get me haha
The estate's official page has an FAQ about it. I curse this site for making link-posting impossible. OH COME ON I CAN'T EVEN COPY-PASTE TEXT FROM THE PAGE??? It says you request permission for quoting published works from HarperCollins Publishers. There's a link there to the requesting-page.
... THE LANGUAGES AND SCRIPTS ARE PROTECTED BY COPYRIGHT? Cannot reproduce in any form of publication or in connection with any "group activity, commercial or otherwise"!??? Wow. HarperCollinsMorgoth.
@@troffle Yup. But even though I'm still trying to make absolutely sure, the general opinion seems to be that this is not entirely enforceable. It's more about stating and defending their rights on a public platform in order to maintain precedent so that the IP doesn't default, even if they wouldn't win every case.
I’ve always heard of Howard’s influence on fantasy and I’m familiar with Conan in general, but I haven’t read any of his books yet unfortunately. Do you have any recommendations as to where to start? Thank you!!
@@InkandFantasy I started with The Del Rey collection of Solomon Kane stories. I think it contains most of his stories in a fairly chronological order. I also just recently got a collection of Conan stories, can't remember the name of the collection I'll look when I get home. Nevermind here's the version. Conan: The Thief, The Conqueror, The King: The Collected Adventures of the World's Greatest Barbarian (Illustrated Edition)
Howard's life is interesting. He was a mama's boy. Published some short stories but most of what he wrote went into a chest, only to be discovered after his death. What an imagination!
Elrond and his brother were half elves and they were given the choice - to be mortal or to be immortal. Elrond’s brother ( I cannot remember his name) chose to be mortal. Aragorn and Arwen’s children would not have been given this choice as Arwen herself sacrificed her immortality to marry Aragorn. And they could no longer sail to the west to undying lands. However it is implied that the children of Aragorn lived lives much longer than other mortal men.
The Laws and Customs of the Eldar are the primary source of information on the matter....and how it describes the development of the elf-children! "Nonetheless there was less difference between the two Kindreds, Elves and Men, in early youth; and a man who watched elf-children at play might well have believed that they were the children of Men, of some fair and happy people. For in their early days elf-children delighted still in the world about them, and the fire of their spirit had not consumed them, and the burden of memory was still light upon them." And while we don't see elf-children in actual stories (though we rarely see children of various kinds, in Lotr book we have only hobbit children, and the gondorian boy Bergil and his friends/colleagues the few that stayed behind in the city of Minas Tirith...and well the orc-child reference in the Hobbit hehe...poor goblin-imp eaten by Gollum :)). Turin's sister, nicknamed Lalaith was compared sometimes to elf-child! So they definitely are incredibly beautiful and lovely and that the fairest among Men and children of men would be comparable. "‘Fair as an Elf-child is Lalaith’, said Húrin to Morwen; 'but briefer, alas! And so fairer, maybe, or dearer.’ And Túrin hearing these words pondered them, but could not understand them. For he had seen no Elf-children. None of the Eldar at that time dwelt in his father’s lands, and once only had he seen them, when King Fingon and many of his lords had ridden through Dor-lómin and passed over the bridge of Nen Lalaith, glittering in silver and white.’"
All the Elf children grew up during the first and second ages Elves are also immortal so there’s no real need to have more children when yours will live forever unless they’re physically killed.
They age very slowly and pristinely. Jensen they grow beards upon their third cycle. Every 10,000 years is cycle. Years also count differently before the sun and moon too. Big stuff. Dee stuff.
Also, the Elves knew that it was time for them to leave for Valinor. Even those who were reluctant still understood that they would fade if they stayed. So replenishing their population in Middle-earth was not a priority. Better for any new Elves to be born in Valinor since they would be living there now that the Dominion of Men had come in Middle-earth.
Celegorm was the only son of Fëanor who experienced lust after he saw Lúthien. Apparently Caranthir and Maglor were married in some of Tolkien's drafts but Curufin is the only one that gave him a grandson.
Since they cannot exist (as elves do not have sex outside of marriage), thousands upon thousands of potential children that could have been witnessed in the Lord of the Rings are removed from the answer of the video!!
Funny how everyone is saying how beautiful elven marriage is -- the act of intimacy _constituting_ a life-long marriage bond, commitment for life, divorce not optional, _delight_ in creating and raising children -- and yet I wonder how many here would simultaneously scoff at Christians for teaching and striving for the exact same thing, in every aspect. Interestinnnnggg.
@@T.Florenz - Yes, humans are sadly sinful. That’s why I was talking about the _principles_ Christianity teaches, _not_ what all Christian’s successfully do.
@@milo_thatch_incarnate hey, you wanted to know why people scoff. Because elves aren't real, people are. And if Christians consider anyone outside of their religion damned to hell, then people are gonna scoff, because that's not a loving or aspirational belief.
@@milo_thatch_incarnatePeople don't "scoff" at the principle, they get disgusted by those who self-righteously demand that others follow their rules while failing to follow those rules themselves
Celebrimbor toward Galadriel. She chose Celeborn over him but Celebrimbor never stopped loving her. He made the three Elven rings because she had lamented the effect of time upon the lands and wished to preserve their people's realms, and Nenya, the ring made specifically for her, was the most beautiful of the three.
@@IgorVattimo-op9q Over half of marriages end in divorce, I know sometimes it is hard to stay in a marriage (alcohol abuse, domestic violence...) But entering a marriage with a mindset: "We can alsways divorce if things go badly..." is not healthy at all. Especially when the couple has (young)children. If such things as domestic violence or alcohol abuse or something like that happens and the couple "divorces" or one of them moves away and not marry again than ok. The core idea is : 𝐄𝐧𝐭𝐞𝐫 𝐦𝐚𝐫𝐫𝐢𝐚𝐠𝐞 𝐫𝐞𝐬𝐩𝐨𝐧𝐬𝐢𝐯𝐞𝐥𝐲. In a healthy society over 50 percent of divorces should never happen.
If we made divorce way more difficult then maybe people would be more careful with the partner they choose. Be intentional. Work on yourself. Heal your inner wounds. Chase after your own greatest potential and happiness. Then and only then begin to search for your Arwen or Aragorn
If you want people to take more consideration into choseing who to marry its better to increase the difficultly of obtaining a marriage license then restricting divorce.
@@CordeliaWagner1999 if youre afraid to get married thats your problem. Not mine. Just cause you dont trust yourself to make decent decisions doesnt mean everyone else has to follow suit.
If we made it where people could live independently with necessary resources, then maybe people think about getting married a bit slower. People fall in love and it simply makes sense to get married to share resources or because society dictates. Changing requirements for divorce won’t help. Changing the situation BEFORE marriage would have a bigger impact.
Hold on. No remarriage? What? Didn't Feanor have half-siblings? After his mother died, Finwe (his dad) remarried. You can google Finwe's family tree. There's a whole bit about this in the simarillion.
Because they're all grown-up elves. And haven't had any children yet. But Arwen and Aragorn have a son together, she sees a glimpse of the future. Where she sees a child with the same necklace she gave Aragorn. And then she understands the drawing. And returns to her father and asks him to have the sword forged again.
That’s the movie version. In the books the sword was forged already when the fellowship first went out from Rivendell, and it was Aragorn’s only weapon from there onward.
No lust? Tell that to Feanor. That guy got married so early, it was unusual for elves. Also, he had seven sons and would have probably had more if his wife wasn't growing apart from him due to his actons.
They were created in Middle Earth by Iluvatar and some decided to stay! Others that had gone to Valinor, the Noldor, later returned in the pursuit of the Silmarils.
The difference in the duration of an elven and human pregnancy might explain why all half-elves in the stories have an elven mother and human father. Say a half-elf baby has a gestation period of about 10-11 months. To an elven mother this is a short and less demanding pregnancy, but to a human mother it would be very demanding to carry a baby that long. Also, her body and the placenta might not be able to sustain the baby that long, and it would be born early. A premature baby and exhausted mother: perhaps that's why never hear of these children.
Here's a contradiction. Elurin and Elured were 9 years old when they were left to die helplessly in the forest by the sons of Feanor. You say that an elf had the wisdom of human adult by 5. Hence, they were not helpless at all as of the year 509. They should have survived.
From my understanding there is a lot of ambiguity surrounding their fate, as no bodies were ever discovered. However, I don’t think it is too much of a contradiction if they had died, as I would have probably died in the woods of Middle Earth too as a 20 year old, relatively athletic male who has reached his physical peak. They on the other hand would have likely been disadvantaged in terms of their bodies, which would have been those of children, many decades before physical maturity!
@@Saber23 That elves never divorce. Is there a legal divorce? No. Do elves permanently leave their spouse? Yes. Aredhel left her husband Eöl. Nerdanel left Fëanor. Mithrellas left Imrazor. It's not all soul mates. Elven marriages sometimes don't work out.
@@margaretalbrecht4650nope. She never left Fëanor. She kept begging him to stay. She was the only one who could quell his fire within and temper it. He was driven by fate and Morgoth’s shadow. He was first elf to sh it the door in Melkor’s face literally. In fact she resided with him again the moment he finally was able to reform himself and learn lessons and reembody himself beside Fingolfin as they make up in Halls Of Mandos
_"if the elves can live __5:54__ forever and they have already lived for __5:56__ tens of thousands of years by the time __5:57__ of our story and the only time you you __5:59__ can tell them AP part is within their __6:01__ first century of existence"_ The problem here is, it presumes no elven child born the last 100 years?
What I didn’t mention in the video, is that Elves stop reproducing all together during times of extreme struggle, strife and war, instead preferring to have children at periods of peace. This could definitely explain the lack of elven children in the last century of the Third Age, not to mention that countless elves had already started to sail West!
What are the sources for this? Does Tolkien getting into elf boinking somewhere in his letters or are you referencing elven themed bodice-ripping fan fic?
![The Hobbit - The Desolation of Smaug - The Enemy Revealed - Gandalf vs. Sauron [ HDR - 4K - 5.1 ]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/toayTeGxDtM/mqdefault.jpg)
The mother's spirit actually does go into her child when she is pregnant. Feanor drained his mother. Usually, the mothers are busy raising their child and recovering from the drain, which is one reason why elves take so long to procreate. But unfortunately in Feanor's case, he drained his mother so much that she was unable to recover and died.
It takes a long time to heal and recover from things even in Valinor. Like thousands of years.
Elves also don't marry and most certainly do not have children during times of war. In rare cases where elves do marry during war, they forsake tradition and do a very quick vow and bind themselves. But they wait to have children until it is safe to do so. Since pregnancy is very hard on the mother especially with her spirit going into her child, it would be too dangerous during times that would risk their lives and their child's. (Also, elves die easily of a broken heart, so the death of a mother and especially a child would be too much). In LOTR, it was during a time of war, which would make since why there are no children around. In the Hobbit, they're probably there, but since the story is focused somewhere else, there is really no need to add children in.
Another thing to factor in, by the time of third age, the elves were fading. The magic and power that kept them strong was pretty much gone. They had to start leaving for the Undying Lands. This could possibly have dramatically reduced the number of children being born since they didn't have enough strength and will to do so.
You'd think that Fëanor would have remembered that his mother died in childbirth when he and his wife Nerdanel had seven sons.
@@dorothypozi543 Miriel did not died "in childbirth", she died "post partum". And in elvish society a developing child takes a lot from his father's spirit too, not only from his mother. Feanor was so over-powered in spirit-power by his mother [and yes, she over-powered him deliberately and then in life or death simply refused to face him] he had had enough to provide for his 7 sons - as the stronger an elf is in spirit, the more children s/he can afford to have...
@@Chociewitka What do you mean by "and then in life or death simply refused to face him"?
I am not familiar with his story, can I find it in the Silmarillion? (I really have to finally read that book)
@@lukrezialaval2406 Well, first she died and refused reembodiment, but when Feanor was doomed to die and end up in Mandos sooner or later by the Doom of Mandos, she suddenly wanted out of Mandos and back into her body again! Feanor would stay in Mandos untill the end of the world and she was clearly set on not meeting him ever again, neither in life nor in death. Or, more graciously: Feanor was her ultimate artwork, at which completion she retired, leaving her art to speak for herself, but seeing that masterpiece of hers banned, she was in need to create other art to express herself...
Undying Lands? And why is magic fading if Elves use it?
108 year pregnancy. Hell on earth.
And it's proof that the creator of this world is a man. No woman would have made even a fictional character go through that horror of a pregnancy.
🎯🎯🎯🎯🎯
Haaaaaahahahaha
*middle earth
You are apparently so ignorant that elves are not human.
Considering the nature of elven marriage, Eol forcing Aredhel to marry him sounds like sacrilege. And the act of crime too.
well olden days if a dude raped a woman she'd be forced to marry him, so very historically accurate of Tolkien.
Maybe White Lady of the Noldor, and only daughter of Fingolfin, High King of the Noldor was into the dark Elfs?
@@elendalhave you read the story of Eol? She was not willing
@@Kunkaliagain. Back then was very dangerous. She could have died alone against all the various ghouls and werewolves about
@@Makkaru112 does that mean it was fine for him to rape/marry her? This was definitely one of the darkest parts of Tolkien's work, no need to defend it. Eol was definitely not a good guy.
I spent my life studying the culture of tolkiens elves and this is 100% accurate! Well done!!
Where is this info??
@YeshuaKingMessiah Its all in Tolkiens notes you can find them in his books and his published archives, unfinished tales etc
Wow that's impressive. I can understand that passion for something, as I'm very passionate myself, when I get into something that catches my interest, it's very hard to take my focus until I finish it.
Megajsck can we exchange info?I love to talk about elves of Tolkien please contact me I leave my email
I wouldn't be surprised if a lore explanation is that the elven children are kept in the most protected areas. Due to their low reproductive rate, i am sure losing children would likely be a catastrophic thing to happen. likely, unlike the adults, the children don't have the option to come back or something
The spirit would just go to the Halls of Mandos, maybe they would get bumped to the front of the line for reincarnation as they do not have a tremendous number of events in their life to reflect upon. That would also be part of the mercy of Mandos.
Much that goes on in the Halls of Mandos is reflection upon the life that you had lived and reconciling those events. I can see where maybe the Vala would refrain from sending reincarnated souls back to Middle Earth and instead prefer for them to be reborn in the Undying Lands. It may take a special circumstance between Mandos and maybe in council with the rest of the Vala to return a soul to Middle Earth.. The soul would probably need to insist upon it because of long family bonds.
Otherwise sending reincarnated souls to Middle Earth might be looked upon as a form of punishment.
It’s also just a statistical problem: if humans live to roughly 100, then (very roughly) 10% of humans should be under 10. But if elves live to, say, 10 thousand years old, then only one-tenth of 1% of elves would be under 10. Elf children are just statistically more rare than human children.
I always thought that the elves forewent with bearing children since the beginning of the third age because of their wanting to return to Valinor and that the world had grown too bitter for them to ever want to raise a family is such a world of dispair. A lot of the elves at the end of the third age were survivors of war of the previous ages and would not want to go to another war, thus their reluctance in the last war of Middle-Earth was fought almost entirely of Men, except when defending their homelands. I don't know if that was my own belief or that was implicit in Tolkien's writings.
The elven marriage is beautiful, and a symbol of its true meaning.
Bruh this shit is so dumb, you can have an arranged marriage and still have it be loving in fact the majority of arranged marriages are like that
@@Saber23idk where you got that but we need to stop glorifying contract marriages and marriages the spouses had literally no say in. They may seem "loving" but it's literally just because they know they have no choice in the matter and make the best of it. Also it's not majority loving it's more often than not patriarchal and abusive
@@animanga103 no shit its patriarchal 🤣 all healthy marriages are inherently patriarchal and no patriarchal don’t synonymous with “abusive” people like you are the reason marriage has collapsed in the West and also you do have a choice in arranged marriages at least where I’m from but even if you don’t love usually follows you can’t logically come here and say “oh it’s because they have no choice” you can’t see into their brains nor is that a polling option so you need to go off if the evidence available while leaving your SJW shit at the door
@@animanga103 no shit its patriarchal 🤣 all healthy marriages are inherently patriarchal and no patriarchal don’t synonymous with “abusive” people like you are the reason marriage has collapsed in the West and also you do have a choice in arranged marriages at least where I’m from but even if you don’t love usually follows you can’t logically come here and say “oh it’s because they have no choice” you can’t see into their brains nor is that a polling option so you need to go off if the evidence available while leaving your SJW shit at the door
@@animanga103 no shit its patriarchal 🤣 all healthy marriages are inherently patriarchal and no patriarchal don’t synonymous with “abusive” people like you are the reason marriage has collapsed in the West and also you do have a choice in arranged marriages at least where I’m from but even if you don’t love usually follows you can’t logically come here and say “oh it’s because they have no choice” you can’t see into their brains nor is that a polling option so you need to go off if the evidence available while leaving your SJW shit at the door
They’re probably playing with the Ent wives in an epic game of hide and seek.
This is my favourite comment. 🥰 Thank you for that mental image!
Elves are immortal, except for violent death. Procreation would've quickly led to a population explosion.
Elven mothers can die post-birth if the child drains too much of their energy, since elven mother's spirit goes into her child. It takes hundreds or thousands of years to recover. For the father, loosing a child or partner is also dangerous, as elves can die of heartbreak in addition to violent death. I think all these reasons combined are why elves do not take having children lightly and only do so under ideal circumstances.
I think the reason there are no elven children is linked to the issue of the elves fading while men grow stronger. Perhaps they're not having kids anymore at all, and that's part of the problem. They no longer have any desire to create new life in Middle-Earth, as their souls are drawn irrevocably to the West. Or maybe they even can't... some design of the Valar to bring an end to gather them all back to Valinor.
Precisely!
When I thought about the question the first thing that came to mind was the time of the elves was ending so no children had been born. I would think that if the higher powers were telling me that it was time to come home, not allowing more children to be born would be a sign.
Apparently there are exceptions to the marriage rules.
The Dark Elf Eol "took" Turgon's sister, Aredhel when she stumbled into his region
The Silmarillion says that she "was not wholly unwilling." He may have come on pretty strong, but she did in fact consent to join with him in physical union, hence they were married.
That's what I was going to say. Love is the only reason for marriage? Unless you're kidnapped.
@@susand2729I got the sense she just kind of went along with the marriage because she was lost (because of his spells), and he was the only dude around, like she settled for him. Maybe that’s why their son grew up to be a tool. It wasn’t a solid love marriage.
@@susand2729that’s not consent
@@ladyeowyn42 lol sjw multi colored hair detected.
Elrond was a half elf half human child, all grown up. But I think it was mentioned that they were leaving Middle Earth at the time of the war of the one ring. Maybe even by Bilbo’s time they had been leaving or secluding themselves from Middle Earth. Maybe by the time of Frodo the children had been sent away. And even though they were not mentioned by Tolkien there may well have been some children in the Wood Elf kingdom and Lothlorien. Tolkien never said they did not exist there.
That's kinda what I always thought. With the elves already leaving and with signs of the War of the Ring, it'd make sense that they would've sent all the children and expecting mothers off on the ships West for safety.
So elves have the same gestation period as a elephant or a whale. I don't think I could handle being pregnant that long.
I dont think I can even handle 9. No children for me, my mother would say you would want it when the years come by ,instead the more I grow up the less I want. It was 2 when I was in high school,got down on 1 in uni,got down to none after the uni
@@exosproudmamabear558THAT'S EXACTLY THE SAME FOR ME 😮😅💯🔥
Just imagine how adorable Legolas must have been as a little elf. (Like the physical comparison to a human 5 yr old)
I mean you can look Orlando bloom's childhood photos and paint his hair blong if you like
Fun fact, elves do not differ much from humans as infants, toddlers and little children just like in folklore
This was beautiful. I can see how LOTR elves are seen as pure creatures of light. They really are.
I just absolutely love Tolkien’s elven lore. I could read and listen and learn about them for hours. The rich culture, dignity, beauty I just can’t get enough!
That was interesting and I enjoyed learning this about the elves. I hadn't thought about where the kids were, but it's nice to have an idea now.
The reason we don't see any elven children is the kind of Elves we are exposed to by Tolkien. We are told about elven lords and ladies, and the other elves in the stories are their servants and courtiers "at work". Even if the servants have children, they will not bring them along when they are performing their duties.
We are told more about 5 elves: Elrond, Arwen, Galadriel, Celeborn and Legolas. Legolas is the heir to Thranduil's throne and although he is much older than the rest of the Fellowship (except Gandalf), he's on a younger side of elves and hasn't married yet. Galadriel is the oldest, born in Valinor before the fall of the Two Trees. She and Celeborn had a child long long ago. Elrond is the twin brother of Elros, the first king of Numenor and Aragorn's very distant ancestor. He was born in the First Age. His wife was Galadriel and Celeborn's only daughter, but she died a long time ago at the hands of orcs. Elrond's three children, sons Elrohir and Elladan as well as daughter Arwen are all grown up. Elrohir and Elladan are busy keeping Rivendell safe and working together with the Rangers to protect the Northern lands. They haven't had time for romance. And we all know Arwen is bethrothed to Aragorn but is not allowed to marry a mortal unless he's the King of both Gondor and Arnor.
In other words, we meet elven lords and ladies who are grandparents or parents of grown children. And the younger generation elves we get to know have a role to play in the war against Sauron and are postponing marriage because of it.
Its nice to know that in truth the mother is not drained spiritually and like all spiritual beings coming or going from physical incarnations, their spirit is eternally intact and unique to them as individuations of God, as in extensions of, and unable to be contaminated or damaged. The only thing the mother offers in respect to birth is the creation of the temporary physical body, and even that is the choice of the spirit coming in to choose the dna and certain genetics that apply to the experiences they want in order to expand their knowledge in experiences, the rest being an extension into physical of their own spirit. The mother's physical body serves somewhat like a portal, and she is not a sacrifice as Tolkien has written here as part of his Christian upbringing and the necessity of sacrifices within that ideology.
As you are using Laws and Customs*, Elves seem to be considered 'mature' at 50 years, though some might not attain full growth until 100 ("Not until the fiftieth year did the Eldar attain the stature and shape in which their lives would afterwards endure, and for some a hundred years would pass before they were full-grown.").
Should also note that these 'years' seem to refer to the Valian or Tree Years, which are 9.586 Sun years.
The much longer pregnancy lengths in the various essays in NoMe seem to have been abandoned in favour of a 'normal' length pregnancy (up to one (solar) year).
The 'Cycles of Life' don't really seem to fit with L&C.
*In later essays as published in Nature of Middle-earth and in Vinyar Tengwar Tolkien has different lengths of time for becoming an adult, some much longer ( nearly 3000 years), others include about 216-288 years, 72 years and 24 years (sun years).
Also Elven children have the same intelligence that a full grown human adult would have
well, elves just "happen" to fall in love and marry appropriately according to their own social standing - even Eol was a kinsman of Thingol - you can have "inter-racial" marriages among elves but you never see "inter-rank" ones - nobility only ever marries nobility... high-nobility only marries high-nobility - but we are told by the text that elves marry only "for love" so this happening is depicted as "purely coincidental" - that they repeatedly "just happen" to marry their 2nd or 3rd cousins of similar social standing...
Why the fuck are you using so much of “this” shit 🤣 and also what is this garbled mess you’ve spit out? You’re overcomplicating shit that doesn’t need to be
I was thinking the same... Bc wasn't Elrond upset about Arwen and Aragorn until Aragorn made himself king?
@@mrsphatsakk420 Elrond was upset about Arwen and Aragorn because he was going to lose his beloved daughter forever. By marrying Aragorn, she would have to give up her elven eternal life. She would become mortal and die. Her soul would go where the mortal souls go to, but that is not where elven souls go to.
Elrond decreed that Arwen would not be allowed to marry a lesser mortal than the King of both Gondor and Arnor. That way, if Elrond were to lose his daughter, at least that would mean that Sauron is defeated. That would be a poor consolation to him, but it would be a good reason for the sacrifice. Should Aragorn fail and not become king, Elrond would take his daughter with him to Valinor
Feanor&nerdanel and fingolfin&anaire refute what you say. Fëanor and Fingolfin were princely brothers, but Nerdanel was a blacksmith's daughter and Anaire was only a Noldo. Still, you are relatively right in what you say, but there was an exception to this.
@@violetpunk well, if Feanor was learning under Mahtan, Mahtan was for sure of nobility, as he was a pupil of Aule himself. Even if Mahtan were no nobility by birth he for sure became one due to having been a Vala's pupil. Anairë was the bosom friend of the Telerin princes Earwen, her being a simple rank Noldo to be a bestie of a Telerin king's daughter is also not very likely. Also the name "Anairë" means "holiest" so she was someone close to the Valar herself, maybe a child dedicated to their service in her youth. Nobility can be acquired and in Valinor being close to and especially blessed by the Valar could confer it.
Elf lifesycle is actually pretty interesting
They're immortal in that they don't die of old age. But they can be killed. If I were an elf I'd stay home!
Human woman has finite number of eggs, and therefore around like 50 she basically cannot have more children (men can theoretically have children till their death). So elven woman probably has the same issue here. She just probably has periods not every month but like every 10 years or so. Elves from Witcher franchise has this problem, that only young elves can have children.
It's not the number, it's the quality. A woman has hundreds of thousands of egg cells, only a few of which will ever mature, but unlike male sperm, which are continuously being produced, a woman is born with all her eggs already there inside her. This means that all the negative environmental influences build up as she ages and leave most of the eggs unviable by her early 40s. This is why men's fertility decreases much less with age than women's, and why freezing her eggs while still young can allow an older woman to have a successful pregnancy.
My understanding was that Arwen was the last elf born in middle earth.
Legolas probably is younger, but Tolkien never stated his age. Haha
Arwen saw her future child when she was leaving to go to the Undying Lands. She then changed her mind and stayed behind. This is the only time you see a elven child
So, basically, the elves are us before the ´fall’.
No, not really. They are beings bound to Arda and live until the end of Arda. Humans are mortal and made for some place else.
Sorts of. They are, in temperament and virtue, what we could have been but for original sin. But like the poster above said, humans were always meant to be mortal.
Not really. They have a lot of gifts and virtues, but they’re still capable of awful behavior. Look how much grief was caused by Feanor and his sons.
They also get reincarnated.
Not really
No, the elves committed murder
The elven way solves many societal problems. Introduced some too. But the strong family is strong.
Did you know that you can have strong connections to other humans beyond your family?
@@CordeliaWagner1999 lol how is that working out for Western society? IT ISN’T 😂 good God go fix your familial problems if you’re this stupid bud, yes you can have connections but the connection between family is the most important and every shred of possible evidence proves this
True however human families are better
@@CordeliaWagner1999 tell me more
Judging by trouble caused by young Galadriel and young Elrond, I understand the hesitancy to have elf children.
Lol way to rowdy
Very interesting! Thank you for sharing 💖
Thanks for watching!!!!
Pretty much the only races where children are seen in LotR or The Hobbit are human and hobbit. Elves, orcs, dwarves, ents, etc. have children but they’re not in any of the places where the main characters go during the stories.
Then that is the kind of marriage I want.
Glad to know that there were are elf children.
Well you’ll never have it because Tolkien himself said this was idealized, live more practically and you’ll be fine
@@Saber23being in a loving and dedicated marriage isn't an impractical want 😂you're so bitter
@@animanga103 when the fuck did I say that? I’m saying looking for unattainable ideals is impractical because your partner will never be able to fulfill them, it’s one of the reasons pornography destroys your ability to have genuine intimacy, although this obviously isn’t nearly as bad as pornography
@@Saber23 everything you say screams "i am unloved and bitter" because it's not idealistic at all to want a loving and dedicated partner for life 😂 also the immediate attitude says you're probably not even old enough to get married without a parents permission. Just chill out and keep your bitterness to yourself 😂
@@animanga103 again that’s not what I said, you’re literally just throwing insults and assumptions my way
Arwen was the last Elvin child born which is why they referred to her as the Evening Star!!! 🤠👍
Arwen was not that young nor the youngest by much, Arwen was 2700, Legolas was 2931. So both were born just after the third age began. Edited to add Elladan and Elrohir, Arwen's brothers, are 2988, also born just after the third age began.
If the time of the Elves was ending, did that effect their instinct to have or avoid having children?
They didn’t avoid it, there was just less and less of them to have children in the first place
Maybe Saruman sneaked into their nurseries, and stole the elf babies. To grow them up into lumberjacks.
Im happy to find you new suscriptor here!!
A young elf girl, Nellas, appears in the story of Turin Turambar
Sometimes I forget just HOW christian Tolkien was and then I remember about elf marriage xD
Yeah he has a bunch of Christian books too
I thought the leaving of Rivendell in the movie would have possibly been the “time” to show off any children
but to be honest elrond look much older than arwen thranduil looks more mature than legolas
In the movies, yeah. In the books you can notice age differences in elves based on life experience and weight of responsibility.
An elven carpenter who has never seen war or conflict may be the same at the age of 150 as he would be at the age of 500.
But someone who had to fight battles, carry the guilt of things he could have done better and lead a large number of people will show signs other than physical age of everything they've been through. They had older actors in those roles since younger ones just can’t portray the necessary gravity and resignation of those roles as well as an older person can.
Meanwhile, Galadriel is one of the oldest elves in Middle Earth at the time of Lord of the Rings, by thousands of years.
@@evilsharkey895420,000 plus years. And that translates to 180,000. Older than the sun and moon. Time flowed differently at the zenith of the world too. I can explain it more deeply if you want. ❤
@@Makkaru112Most estimates put her at around 8,000 years old at the time of Lord of the Rings, including the longer years of her time in Valinor.
@@evilsharkey8954There are different measurements of time at the beginning of Arda depending on the source of light for the world. First there were the two lamps, which Morgoth knocked over. Then there were the two Trees, again destroyed by Morgoth. Then Varda finally got smart and hung the light source in the heavens where Morgoth couldn't reach, and thus the sun and the moon became the standard for measuring the passing of days and years. But for the lamps and the Trees, their day and year cycles were longer and thus equate to many more Years of the Sun.
The only, only, only reason I can imagine anybody might have a right to downvote this video is if they've found a lore-factual error. Not only is the material beautiful, the presentation of this was as well.
@InkandFantasy I am still new / early / young in my Tolkien exploration. I do not know if it would be feasible or possible; but with these videos, is it possible to have a subtitle or footnote or something so a reference to the chapter/title of the source material is visible, please?
Thank you for the kind words!! I’ll try to add more sources in the future, and for this video specifically the vast majority of information comes from Morgoth’s Ring regarding the Laws and Customs among the Eldar!
@@InkandFantasyis that a book?
Morgoth’s Ring is a book yes! I highly recommend it
Finwe married twice, first to Miriel, with whom he fathered Feanor. Then he married Indis, with whom he fathered Fingolfin and Finarfin.
He also had two daughters with Indis. Findis and Irime.
@@dorothypozi543 he sure did.
I was just attempting to point out the inaccuracy in the video.
@@iallso1 OK.
@@iallso1 He literally says this in the video. Finwë was first married to Míriel and after she died he married Indis. How is that inaccurate?
@@bakoyma he said early on in the video that elves only marry once.
So basically elf marriage is like Biblical marriage.
In a way yes
Real marriages in the bible were polygamist or incestuous a lot of the time, but there were a couple good monogamous marriages in there.
The biblical idea of marriage does not mean all marriages that appeared in the bible @@cecilyerker
@@cecilyerkertrue. But the appearance of polygamy in the Bible doesn't mean the Bible supports it. After all, it is also an account of people in the past and their livilihood.
Biblical marriage? So....multiple wives, concubines, sex slaves, your sister in law? Or do you mean the times earth was repopulated by incest?
I'm a writer and I want to quote Tolkien in my book, and it would be fair use but I'm still afraid of the Tolkien estate's lawyers. How do youtubers like yourself get to quote copyrighted material (hell, even Tolkien's name is copyrighted) and not get sued? Is the estate more reasonable than I expected?
I don’t think stuff like that falls under the category of copyright, certainly in the context of videos at least, though I would imagine the same would apply for a book. For example, I’ve seen dozens of written works on Tolkien himself and his stories, analyses and whatnot, and they don’t seem to have a problem!
@@InkandFantasy Specifically I'd be including two quotes: one from Letter 19, and another from a speech he gave at Oxford U. Altogether the word count between the two is only about 70 words. Used for purposes of analysis and critique, to support larger arguments being built in the book. I know I'd have a good argument in court, but what's holding me back is that the estate lawyers could just be feeling saucy one day and call me into court just to maintain precedent and punish me with court fees. They've done it to fanfic writers, haven't they (I'm not talking about Polychron, that guy picked a fight with them)? Thanks for your input! And don't worry, you have it here in writing that I'm not gonna hold you liable for giving legal advice if they do come to get me haha
The estate's official page has an FAQ about it. I curse this site for making link-posting impossible.
OH COME ON I CAN'T EVEN COPY-PASTE TEXT FROM THE PAGE???
It says you request permission for quoting published works from HarperCollins Publishers. There's a link there to the requesting-page.
... THE LANGUAGES AND SCRIPTS ARE PROTECTED BY COPYRIGHT? Cannot reproduce in any form of publication or in connection with any "group activity, commercial or otherwise"!???
Wow. HarperCollinsMorgoth.
@@troffle Yup. But even though I'm still trying to make absolutely sure, the general opinion seems to be that this is not entirely enforceable. It's more about stating and defending their rights on a public platform in order to maintain precedent so that the IP doesn't default, even if they wouldn't win every case.
Very interesting video.
Hey, have you read any of Robert E. Howard's works like Conan, Kull, or Kane?
I’ve always heard of Howard’s influence on fantasy and I’m familiar with Conan in general, but I haven’t read any of his books yet unfortunately. Do you have any recommendations as to where to start? Thank you!!
@@InkandFantasy I started with The Del Rey collection of Solomon Kane stories. I think it contains most of his stories in a fairly chronological order. I also just recently got a collection of Conan stories, can't remember the name of the collection I'll look when I get home.
Nevermind here's the version.
Conan: The Thief, The Conqueror, The King: The Collected Adventures of the World's Greatest Barbarian (Illustrated Edition)
I’ll check it out, thank you very much!!!
@@InkandFantasy Your welcome. Peace ✌🏻
Howard's life is interesting. He was a mama's boy. Published some short stories but most of what he wrote went into a chest, only to be discovered after his death. What an imagination!
If you are giving birth to an immortal baby you would need to give part of your soul.
Everything is slowly cook with these guys
very interesting
Legolas: I like that girl daddy
Thranduil: haha no.
Because he didn't WRITE them into the story... that's why.
He did though
So what of Arwen and Aragorn's children? What happens with half-elves?
Elrond and his brother were half elves and they were given the choice - to be mortal or to be immortal. Elrond’s brother ( I cannot remember his name) chose to be mortal.
Aragorn and Arwen’s children would not have been given this choice as Arwen herself sacrificed her immortality to marry Aragorn. And they could no longer sail to the west to undying lands. However it is implied that the children of Aragorn lived lives much longer than other mortal men.
@@FarmgirlFridayThey probably already would live longer since his Numenorian blood
Elasar is shown several times
The Laws and Customs of the Eldar are the primary source of information on the matter....and how it describes the development of the elf-children!
"Nonetheless there was less difference between the two Kindreds, Elves and Men, in early youth; and a man who watched elf-children at play might well have believed that they were the children of Men, of some fair and happy people. For in their early days elf-children delighted still in the world about them, and the fire of their spirit had not consumed them, and the burden of memory was still light upon them."
And while we don't see elf-children in actual stories (though we rarely see children of various kinds, in Lotr book we have only hobbit children, and the gondorian boy Bergil and his friends/colleagues the few that stayed behind in the city of Minas Tirith...and well the orc-child reference in the Hobbit hehe...poor goblin-imp eaten by Gollum :)).
Turin's sister, nicknamed Lalaith was compared sometimes to elf-child!
So they definitely are incredibly beautiful and lovely and that the fairest among Men and children of men would be comparable.
"‘Fair as an Elf-child is Lalaith’, said Húrin to Morwen; 'but briefer, alas! And so fairer, maybe, or dearer.’ And Túrin hearing these words pondered them, but could not understand them. For he had seen no Elf-children. None of the Eldar at that time dwelt in his father’s lands, and once only had he seen them, when King Fingon and many of his lords had ridden through Dor-lómin and passed over the bridge of Nen Lalaith, glittering in silver and white.’"
All the Elf children grew up during the first and second ages Elves are also immortal so there’s no real need to have more children when yours will live forever unless they’re physically killed.
They age very slowly and pristinely. Jensen they grow beards upon their third cycle. Every 10,000 years is cycle. Years also count differently before the sun and moon too. Big stuff. Dee stuff.
It’s also said that the longer their intercourse is the more dangerous it is in various ways. Tolkien was quite detailed.
Yeah kinks can kill
It also seemed like many of the elves were not married, and not young either.
When you come to the realization that Elrond had THREE children....
Tolkien's christian fundmentalism seeping through so hard in this one 😮💨
Am I weird for thinking this is how love and sex should be? :( I just want 1 partner for life. Sex should only happen if two people love eachother.
Where did you get this information, if I may ask?
Morgoth’s Ring, on the customs of the Eldar!
@@InkandFantasylaws and customs of the eldar
What are your sources for this? I have heard nothing except for the marriages of Finwë.
Morgoth’s Ring primarily, on the customs of the Eldar!
@@InkandFantasy Thanks! I was seriously curious about this.
Also, the Elves knew that it was time for them to leave for Valinor. Even those who were reluctant still understood that they would fade if they stayed. So replenishing their population in Middle-earth was not a priority. Better for any new Elves to be born in Valinor since they would be living there now that the Dominion of Men had come in Middle-earth.
I'm not going to believe that THE SONS OF FEANOR did not experience lust...
Thanks for the announcement
Celegorm was the only son of Fëanor who experienced lust after he saw Lúthien. Apparently Caranthir and Maglor were married in some of Tolkien's drafts but Curufin is the only one that gave him a grandson.
@@dorothypozi543caranthir had a big respect and love for Haleth of the house of Haleth. But he already had a elvish wife.
What do you mean children born outside of marriage are "removed from the equation"?
Since they cannot exist (as elves do not have sex outside of marriage), thousands upon thousands of potential children that could have been witnessed in the Lord of the Rings are removed from the answer of the video!!
@@InkandFantasy Ah, ok, I get it. Thanks :)
Funny how everyone is saying how beautiful elven marriage is -- the act of intimacy _constituting_ a life-long marriage bond, commitment for life, divorce not optional, _delight_ in creating and raising children -- and yet I wonder how many here would simultaneously scoff at Christians for teaching and striving for the exact same thing, in every aspect. Interestinnnnggg.
Western hypocrisy at its finest huh?
Weird how many christians i know who had extra-marital affairs or were abusive to their spouses and kids. Weird how fantasy isn't reality, isn't it
@@T.Florenz - Yes, humans are sadly sinful. That’s why I was talking about the _principles_ Christianity teaches, _not_ what all Christian’s successfully do.
@@milo_thatch_incarnate hey, you wanted to know why people scoff. Because elves aren't real, people are. And if Christians consider anyone outside of their religion damned to hell, then people are gonna scoff, because that's not a loving or aspirational belief.
@@milo_thatch_incarnatePeople don't "scoff" at the principle, they get disgusted by those who self-righteously demand that others follow their rules while failing to follow those rules themselves
Elves do not make children in times of war. From the discussion about the gift of men, between Feanor and Andreth.
Finrod*
I assumed something like this, but good to know
This was mind fuckery for me, every thing is slow & fast at the same time & it makes no sense lol
This is depressing. I cant even get a human to swipe me on Tyndor. Im an incelf.
Imagine being an elf and your love is unrequited 😅
Yeah, somehow a cold shower just wouldn't cut it. The best solution to avoid unrequited love is, not to love. Tragic but honest.
Celebrimbor toward Galadriel. She chose Celeborn over him but Celebrimbor never stopped loving her. He made the three Elven rings because she had lamented the effect of time upon the lands and wished to preserve their people's realms, and Nenya, the ring made specifically for her, was the most beautiful of the three.
I wish that our real world marriages be like that.
Babies produced outside of marriage are removed????
@@veramae4098 I wish there were no babies being produced outside of marriage. That copulation between man and woman was done only in marriage.
@@veramae4098 Also that marriage would not be something that can be broken during anyone´s lifetime on earth.
Are you kidding? Not being able to end a merriage? It sounds a little bit sticked to a dangerous past.
@@IgorVattimo-op9q Over half of marriages end in divorce, I know sometimes it is hard to stay in a marriage (alcohol abuse, domestic violence...) But entering a marriage with a mindset: "We can alsways divorce if things go badly..." is not healthy at all. Especially when the couple has (young)children. If such things as domestic violence or alcohol abuse or something like that happens and the couple "divorces" or one of them moves away and not marry again than ok. The core idea is : 𝐄𝐧𝐭𝐞𝐫 𝐦𝐚𝐫𝐫𝐢𝐚𝐠𝐞 𝐫𝐞𝐬𝐩𝐨𝐧𝐬𝐢𝐯𝐞𝐥𝐲. In a healthy society over 50 percent of divorces should never happen.
If we made divorce way more difficult then maybe people would be more careful with the partner they choose. Be intentional. Work on yourself. Heal your inner wounds. Chase after your own greatest potential and happiness. Then and only then begin to search for your Arwen or Aragorn
Divorce used to be much more difficult. Just created more angry problems.
I'm 71. I remember.
If you want people to take more consideration into choseing who to marry its better to increase the difficultly of obtaining a marriage license then restricting divorce.
Be smart.
Don't get married.
@@CordeliaWagner1999 if youre afraid to get married thats your problem. Not mine. Just cause you dont trust yourself to make decent decisions doesnt mean everyone else has to follow suit.
If we made it where people could live independently with necessary resources, then maybe people think about getting married a bit slower. People fall in love and it simply makes sense to get married to share resources or because society dictates. Changing requirements for divorce won’t help. Changing the situation BEFORE marriage would have a bigger impact.
Weird as they cuda all had there own TREE HOUSES
Since there were also half elves, how fast/slow did they grow? And at what age did they mature?
Tolkiens most explicit/consistant statement on the issue 24 (sun) years.
Hold on. No remarriage? What? Didn't Feanor have half-siblings? After his mother died, Finwe (his dad) remarried. You can google Finwe's family tree. There's a whole bit about this in the simarillion.
That story is the exception, and he does reference it in this video.
They also have no farms... I'm starting to understand why there are no children.
They only eat meat & eggs & dairy? And forage maybe?
They would have to grow their grain and other food stuffs. I think they would have farms - just differently.
Spoke and sung by a year, but, alas, no pointed ears...what a shame.
Immortals with human sexual biology would overpopulate Middle Earth.
Because they're all grown-up elves. And haven't had any children yet.
But Arwen and Aragorn have a son together, she sees a glimpse of the future. Where she sees a child with the same necklace she gave Aragorn. And then she understands the drawing. And returns to her father and asks him to have the sword forged again.
That’s the movie version. In the books the sword was forged already when the fellowship first went out from Rivendell, and it was Aragorn’s only weapon from there onward.
Do elven mothers of 4 suddenly turn ginger?
No lust? Tell that to Feanor. That guy got married so early, it was unusual for elves. Also, he had seven sons and would have probably had more if his wife wasn't growing apart from him due to his actons.
Why did the elves even come to Earth or Middle Earth anyway ? Never understood that
They were created in Middle Earth by Iluvatar and some decided to stay! Others that had gone to Valinor, the Noldor, later returned in the pursuit of the Silmarils.
And token doesn't mention anything about the birth cycle of elves ?
They’re already on the ships.
The difference in the duration of an elven and human pregnancy might explain why all half-elves in the stories have an elven mother and human father. Say a half-elf baby has a gestation period of about 10-11 months. To an elven mother this is a short and less demanding pregnancy, but to a human mother it would be very demanding to carry a baby that long. Also, her body and the placenta might not be able to sustain the baby that long, and it would be born early. A premature baby and exhausted mother: perhaps that's why never hear of these children.
Elven marriage sounds like old school Catholic Church to me. No divorce and sex is for the procreation of children, not for pleasure.
Here's a contradiction. Elurin and Elured were 9 years old when they were left to die helplessly in the forest by the sons of Feanor. You say that an elf had the wisdom of human adult by 5. Hence, they were not helpless at all as of the year 509. They should have survived.
From my understanding there is a lot of ambiguity surrounding their fate, as no bodies were ever discovered. However, I don’t think it is too much of a contradiction if they had died, as I would have probably died in the woods of Middle Earth too as a 20 year old, relatively athletic male who has reached his physical peak. They on the other hand would have likely been disadvantaged in terms of their bodies, which would have been those of children, many decades before physical maturity!
If you read the Silmilrian and they are daughters and sons.
Eöl and Aredhel. She left him.
What do you mean?
@@Saber23 That elves never divorce. Is there a legal divorce? No. Do elves permanently leave their spouse? Yes. Aredhel left her husband Eöl. Nerdanel left Fëanor. Mithrellas left Imrazor.
It's not all soul mates. Elven marriages sometimes don't work out.
@@margaretalbrecht4650nope. She never left Fëanor. She kept begging him to stay. She was the only one who could quell his fire within and temper it. He was driven by fate and Morgoth’s shadow. He was first elf to sh it the door in Melkor’s face literally. In fact she resided with him again the moment he finally was able to reform himself and learn lessons and reembody himself beside Fingolfin as they make up in Halls Of Mandos
Feanor drained his mother, but apparently his wifey didnt have that problem.
I can hear someone yell 'how dare you!!' in background about this sacred marriage bound and whole hearted family concepts of Tolkien elves.
Lore of Why Are There No Elf Children in the Lord of the Rings? Momentum 100
Aragorn s Son is half elven and human
Uhm, I missed this part of the book....
It’s in Morgoth’s Rings mostly, not the LotR!!
So that’s what happened in GTA.
_"if the elves can live __5:54__ forever and they have already lived for __5:56__ tens of thousands of years by the time __5:57__ of our story and the only time you you __5:59__ can tell them AP part is within their __6:01__ first century of existence"_
The problem here is, it presumes no elven child born the last 100 years?
What I didn’t mention in the video, is that Elves stop reproducing all together during times of extreme struggle, strife and war, instead preferring to have children at periods of peace. This could definitely explain the lack of elven children in the last century of the Third Age, not to mention that countless elves had already started to sail West!
@@InkandFantasy ah, ok, got it!
What are the sources for this? Does Tolkien getting into elf boinking somewhere in his letters or are you referencing elven themed bodice-ripping fan fic?
Morgoth’s Ring, Laws and Customs among the Eldar!!
They were not important for the story - there. I solved the mystery.