Well done Tom! This is the kind of information that the mainstream media should be providing because it’s important for everyone, not just early EV adopters, to understand. Unfortunately the subject has become politicized with a segment of the population rooting for EVs to fail. There is no doubt that we are at a tipping point that could give the naysayers all the ammo they need to say I told you so. EA must up their game. They are the predominant fast charging network along most major corridors, at least here in the east, and they are failing to provide a consistent, always available service to the public. Along the PA Turnpike there are only two DC fast charger sites between Pittsburgh and King of Prussia and none at Breezewood for anyone heading south. Unless you drive a Tesla, a trip east from Pittsburgh if a crap shoot. Keep up the great content Tom, it’s much appreciated.
For sure, unfortunately, the group of people who resist this the most do not believe mainstream media. The internet fuels nonsense on all topics and this one is where some of the most ignorant thrive.
The UK's National Grid has been looking forward to & planning for, EV's as a crucial part of the transition to a fully renewables based grid for the same reasons the gentleman from SMUD expressed. 2035 is (far too late) for the banning of new ICE car sales. The UK's own deadline (was) 2035 but when reviewed, it was brought (forward) to 2030; in light of the rapidly increasing pace of climate change, 7yrs as opposed to 12yrs makes much more sense. I really admired the USA for being amoungst the very 1st countries (in the world) to provide an EV incentive for (used) EV's; France being the only other one that I'm aware of. I'd like to see the banning of (used ICE) cars by 2037 & 2040 @ the latest; nothing drives change quite like Gov't policy & legislation - pun intended. This will seem radical & unattainable by many, but humanity just HAS to get to grips with climate change prevention & mitigation action now or we're literally cooked! COP22 was a complete waste of time; Bla Bla, Bla as Greta Thunberg likes to say. Really enjoyed this episode as it made a nice change from the usual purely charging product based content. Could we perhaps have a bit more like this please, Tom?
I'm a SMUD customer and have an EV and they've been great. SMUD, unlike PG&E, has been able to avoid brown-outs. They are very good at managing the grid. Also, they're hugely supportive of EVs. I have a nearly free EV rate between midnight and 6am, and they installed a free level 2 charger for me at my house, and they offer rebates for solar. If every utility were as proactive as they are, the transition to electric would be a lot easier.
Because they burn natural gas. Natural gas turbines are a incredible reliable and efficient source of electricity. While I want a electric truck, I fully understand the electricity for my truck will be generated by burning natural gas.
1. Sounds like Oregon, where the capital city has its own utility control, and IS NOT mandated to use solar and wind. The rest of Cal, UNLIKE YOUR LITTLE BUBBLE, relies on unreliable and mostly nonexistent power from solar and wind, and as a result DOES NOT have that reliability. 2. Policy and good vibes do not equal enough power to run everything AND charge EVs. As well, no one plugs their vehicle in for any reason other than to be charged up. You did notice the line used, as far as the populace 'modifying their behavior' to 'make this work.' THIS is the final goal...CONTROL.
Re: Utility FUDsters. Totally disagree. Perhaps a bit of humility is called for, here. Having worked over a decade in the industry, I know how very competent their SMEs are & you’re completely missing how they have more than taken ALL the variables into consideration (they can be quite obsessive, including with all sorts of engineering trials, I assure you) going forwards decades, due to the immense costs & consequences of their decisions. You’re just missing all the things he didn’t have time to dwell on. Brownouts, etc., are all components of planned resiliency. VPP trials are just starting to model out the technologies & price incentives. Before long, that will wholly replace the very costly & slow responding peaker turbines. Maybe a bit of research would be in order before revealing your ignorance, so vehemently.
@GHsCrunch You know, if I were some millenial twat living in effbook and twatter, you might have shown me. But since I'm NOT, and have taken the time to actually talk with the people I mentioned...from 3 different regional power utility companies...I think you need to sit down and stop drinking this kool-aid. This is not a matter of a fully fleshed out system upgrade or even modification. This is an engineering job done instead by bureaucrats and green grift lobbyists. Attempts to shore this disaster up with things like home solar or V2G 'solutions,' are just spit and bailing wire and a prayer. The grid lines need to be able to handle AT LEAST twice the power they do now, from transmission stations to distribution transformers. There needs to be around 30% or more BASELOAD available to support this, which leaves out solar, wind, and batteries. And there need to be people willing to say NO to this hacking up of the grid. At the very least, they should be lobbying to break the grid up into smaller state region chunks to avoid one green folly from bringing everyone else down. You can assure people as much as you want. Unfortunately for you, the continual near collapse and outright shutdown of grids trying to push this insanity, makes your assurances ring a little empty.
Wow, your guest mentioned a bus depot where an apartment building is right next door, with the stench of diesel exhaust and all the health impacts. It's also dismissal time at so many schools where there is a 12-bus queue of diesel buses, all idling, with a huge crowd of kids all around, inhaling those fumes. It will be so great not to smell that "bus depot" smell anymore.
You won’t see all electric bus fleet anytime soon there is no possible way for say 60 busses to charge at one site without considerable infrastructure.
Great episode. Maybe as a followup to this you could do a show talking more about the effects of bi-directional peak shaving on the expected life of the vehicle battery. Manufacturers warranty was mentioned, but that only matters to the manufacturers. It's easy for a vehicle to last 3 to 6 times longer than the warranty. How many less years of service would the owner get out of a battery? How often do these events happen? How much incentive does the utility have to offer the customer to fully compensate the customer for battery wear? Is it enough to just power the house wholly off the vehicle's battery to eliminate consumption at peak times as opposed to actively pumping energy into the grid and incurring its inherent line losses? How much capacity does the utility need to 'borrow' from customers during peak events?
Gary, I don't think the small battery packs used in a car is what the utility company is interested in. A 265 KW battery pack in a parked school bus over the summer, next to another 100 busses in a parking lot would make a great sized battery for back up, and drawing out 15 MW of power every day. While a 65 KW battery in a car, it is way to small to make a $4,000 battery charger that has bi-directional inverter installed in it worth while. I installed a 16 amp 240 volt vehicle charger from China that cost about $169. The Ford charger / home power system will cost something in the range of $2,500+ and installation where they have a dedicated panel for your "Critical" loads will add a lot to that expense, and they don't talk about that much. A generator power panel for a portable 10,000 watt generator cost at least $650 and will cost about $1,200 - $1,500 to have it installed and get permits will add at least $600 more along with the need to have a electrician spend 4 hours waiting around for the inspector to show up and give it's approval. Fine if you are working down the street on a tract of homes, but if you are across town and the inspector shows up, you have to drop everything and get back to the home where you are waiting for the inspector.
Oh cool, I am first! V2G is the ultimate solution. But before bi-directional charging technology is in place, smart EVSE (chargers) technology needs to be implemented. It really is pretty simple. The EVSE has the ability to turn on or off charging to the vehicle, and it can taper down or increase to MAX the charge rate to the vehicle. This is accomplished by altering the duty cycle in the pilot pin in the j1772 connector. With a WIFI or cellular connected EVSE, the power company can message the EVSE when the grid is stressed more or less. All the EV owner needs to do is tell the car what time they need the car to be fully charged. Then the turning on/off and charge rate will be determined by the power company in order to minimize stresses on the electric grid. This is already being done with some power companies with home owners equipped with smart HVAC thermostats. The power company can reduce HVAC consumption during high stress times of day and more HVAC consumption when there is surplus energy in the grid. Of course right-wing media will latch on to this and say it’s big+government (big brother) spying on us. They already are saying this about connected smart thermostats, imagine how they are going to flip about saying how the government will take control of how you charge your car? Well this will just be a stop-gap until solar PV and V2G is fully implemented, but this will take a long time I’m afraid and the power companies generally do not want individual home owners (customers) to take control of their energy.
The grid is being rebuilt to add renewables and phase out fossil fuel electricity generation, so a comprehensive process. The grid in 2035 will not look anything like today's grid. California is also requiring new homes to have solar panels included, and this is a trend all over the country, so lots of decentralized power coming on line. I charge my own EV with an off-grid solar + battery system, so no burden on grid.
Tom, this is my favorite video of the year by a landslide. Jokes aside, awesome video. I’ve heard all the commentary you've outlined here before and I'm excited to point the people interested in the topic to this video
This is no different than the computer and CRT monitor coming to every desk in the early 70s. This took huge amounts of energy that we don’t use anymore. A LED flat screen uses so much less power than a CR, laptops use less energy than desktops, and the office has low power LEDs. Just as that whole revolution was survived. I am sure we will survive this revolution too. My proposal is that all new construction and rebuilds must include renewable power, e.g. wind & solar, with batteries connected to the grid for balancing the power distribution.
California has required a solar system be installed in any new home, and remodels over a certain dollar value must also include a grid tied solar system, usually about 2-3 KW per house. Wind power is not so easy to install at any address. It can only be installed in windy areas, and traditionally nobody built their homes in areas that have near constant 15 - 25 MPH winds all winter long. So the super windy areas normally don't have many towns in them, and thus no loads to that section of the state, and they need to put in power lines to export the power to places where people live that are not as windy.
As a distribution planning engineer for a utility in New York, I really appreciated this video. I spoke on a panel a couple months ago put on by Clarkson University regarding similar topics as these, and if I remember correctly, John from the Power Authority was in attendance. I had given my thoughts on EVs, and their effect on the grid. In distribution planning, this is exactly what we work on on a day-to-day basis; evaluating and coming up with distribution upgrades needed for large commercial loads (such as level 3 EV DC fast chargers). I can say with certainty, these fast chargers use a TON of power, many of them in upwards of a Megawatt, if all chargers at a particular location are utilized. For comparison, this can be more power than a strip-mall uses. Even residential chargers can draw 50 amps at 240V. Unfortunately, as it stands right now, there is (without a doubt) not enough capacity on many distribution circuits to handle this load, especially in rural areas. In some cases, the EV chargers are single-handedly taking up the last remaining capacity there is on the circuits. I think it is possible to serve the upcoming EV load, it's just going to take a lot of money- and time- to get there.
I guess it is a wonderful thing that New York will be installing about 4,000 MW of offshore wind power over the next 7 years. That should provide plenty of extra capacity, in addition to the hydroelectric power being bought from Canada. I am hoping that in Canada, they can install several thousand MW of wind power, so they can then sell it in America. Also with plenty of cheap power in Canada, they can slow the use of home heating oil, propane heat, and even natural gas. This is because a heat pump can collect 100,000 Btu's with only 7-10 KW of electricity, while a gallon of propane or therm of natural gas, or gallon of fuel oil, they are much more expensive than the heat pump at about $1 per 100,000 Btu's. Even if the Canada customers will need to use the old oil heater, propane or natural gas on the few days below -5F. Carrier makes a variable speed compressor outdoor heat pump unit that can be connected to a ducted A/C or a ductless indoor coil. They can collect the rated Btu's at -5 by speeding up the compressor to 120 Hz on the very cold days. Carrier used to sell a 3 part heat pump, with a water heating compressor section, and a indoor coil and outdoor coil. It was back in the 90's. However it came at a high price, so they stopped making it, due to low demand. SCE put one in their demonstration project building in LA area. If they could start making the water heater unit again, that could save homeowners a lot of money on heating water. In the summer, basically the hot water is free!
Yeah I was a bit confused when the guest said they have capacity for all the EV's and then said they are looking to use EV's to 'assist' in supplying power via upload to the grid. Well if you don't need the EV power for the grid why make that statement? That in itself opens up a number of questions. For example the EV customer is cycling their EV battery reducing its theoretical life to supply power for their neighbours clothes dryer. At what rate is the utility going to compensate the EV owner to upgrade their home equipment for 2 way flow and pay them for k/w's uploaded? So many questions and this video didn't address many of them.
With so many people working from home, they can charge their car overnight when demand is low and then sell the energy back during the day, making money while doing it. Win-win situation.
On my street in Palo Alto, about 50% of the homes have at least one EV in their driveway (a few have two). Palo Alto has one of the highest EV ownership rates in the country, if not the highest - as evidenced by the number of Teslas, e-Golfs, Rivian's, ID.4's etc. that I see around town. We also have no grid issues to EV charging demand. I have lost power a handful of times over the past decade, due to a tree falling on a power line or a squirrel getting fried. As both your guests said utilities are always adjusting and getting ready for new forms of electricity demand. Getting a permit for your home EVSE ensures the city knows you will be charging an EV and it can evaluate the size of the local transformer.
I don't know for sure, but I think the grid will rise to the challenge as it has with every other mass adopted electric appliance. The refrigerator? Did the grid collapse, the electric dryer? The electric stove, the air conditioner....you see where I'm going with this.
So great to see you feature my electricity provider, SMUD, on your show! We’ve had our two EVs (Model 3 and VW ID.4) for a year and a half. SMUD has been terrific. They support EV adoption in many ways. I am not at all worried about the EV future. Why? Because this is an evolving technology (technologies), not a static ancient destructive process like fossil fuels. Batteries are changing, delivery of power is changing, transportation is evolving… it’s all on the move. (As an 8th generation Californian, I will say that I do appreciate those like tucker who effectively spread lies about California! Keep it up, tucker - let’s keep all those folks from moving here!) Also keep in mind that the typical driver, EV or fossil fuel, drive around 40 miles a day. A full battery in an EV can deliver 200+ miles of range, meaning they store a few days of typical driving in case of a temporary power outage. Nothing to worry about. And lastly the law you mentioned about sales of fossil fuel vehicles in California only applies to NEW ICE vehicles. Used car sales, the type of cars most people buy, are not impacted by the law. Sadly, we can’t simply remove ICE vehicles overnight. So, while I appreciate adding more anti-California spin, it’s in fact not true. Great video as always, Tom!
I plug in after work and need my car charged when I leave for work. At most I need 4 hours of charging while being plugged in for 12 hours. I would happily give permission to my utility provider to manage when my car charges in exchange for a modest discount. I think this would go a very long way to smoothing out the grid usage.
I was watching a TH-cam by Electric Pro Academe, and they are in Indiana, and their utility offers a power supply to homeowners just to recharge EV's for $0.03 per KW to recharge a electric car. One video that they talk about the special rates is one home that has a $1,000,000 pool room and 1,200 service to the house and a additional 100 amp service with the special rate to the garage just for EV charging. So IF you have a detached garage in Indiana, and plan to install another service just to power a EV, it can be used to power the EV with a very special power rate between midnight and 6 am.
@@jabelar2008 Usually, if a single household has four vehicles, it's about allowing for people to drive to 4 different places at the same, typically not everyone is going to have a long commute, so the total number of kWh used per day is less than you think. In most cases, simply having some cars take turns with the home's 8 kW charger, and letting the remaining cars trickle-charge on 110V outlets is good enough. In rare cases where it isn't, you can buy a home charge with two charging heads that is specially designed for splitting its power supply across multiple cars. About the only time you really need several vehicles at the same location charging at full power, all night long, is commercial fleets, for example, a garage full of Amazon delivery trucks. In that case, they'll have to bite the bullet and upgrade their electricity service to handle that. But, for a normal 3/4 car household, it is usually not necessary.
Nice video, Tom! Both guests did a nice job and I thought John from NYPA hit the nail on the head, lots of good insight and comments from him. We are seeing and doing much the same in the Midwest. I'm really happy to see your interview with such quality guests. This is much more helpful to the industry and transition than other interviewers who don't have guests who are active in the industry with the same level of expertise. Thanks for bringing this quality info to the public!
As a lightning owner l really appreciate your videos …Thank you … Hopefully Canada watch’s your video and starts to act or I’ll have to move to the US to charge
*RE "This is an excellent video and should be mandatory viewing! Thanks Tom!"* _Vee haff veys af meking you.....papieren bitte!_ You socialists have an orgasm every time you utter the word "mandatory" don't you? Was is good for you this time Cheddar, not so much for me.
One of your best videos. Looking at where we have easy/cheap access to electricity is one way to look at it, and the other, is where are ALL of the places where cars sit for a while, parked, and can we get any kind of charger in there. I think we need simple cheap add-ons to robust level 2 chargers allowing for payment. As covered in the video, the third big factor is how to charge the majority of vehicles cost efficiently, both generation, and delivery. It is great to see it being worked on, because as Tom was thinking in his head, the EVs keep getting better. As more and more chargers keep popping up, more people are going to want them(hockey stick anxiety😁).
Tom thanks for the video good information. Your next video concerning this should be from states like South Dakota and Nebraska. Especially South Dakota I have been hearing from people living there that the grid in South Dakota can't provide enough electricity to power DCFC. I would like hear how the power companies are going to get charging set up in these rural areas where the population is very small. Once again thanks for all you do. I enjoy your channel and am a subscriber.
It is all a math problem. Somehow when they installed 200 amp service to each of 100 new mobile homes in South Dakota in 2015 to house the workers at the camps that are making the oil from fracking, and they are able to supply 1,000 amp 480 volt service to a oil pump, it is a surprise to me that they can not power a 16 amp electric charger at any house in any area of the state. When they stop pumping oil with those 1,000 HP pumps, and stop moving hundreds of gallons of oil to the refinery using electric pumps, they will have extra power to run the electric cars.
Something not to forget is that it takes alot of electricity to refine oil into petrol and diesel. As EV numbers start increasing the demand for fuel will decrease and les power will be needed to manufacture it. Also what can be done to control load on the grid is to have all home chargers controlled by the utility companies. If the load gets to high they can start cutting chargers and the owners may be allowed to do a manual over ride if they need to charge. In South Africa many houses has been fitted with a device that the utility can use to switch off electric geysers when load gets to high during peak loads.
Their a few issues with that... 1. Why would that matter to states outside of California, and the gulf coast? 2. Hydrogen, Fustion is far worse 3.Dino juice is free energy and carben for the taking 4, Fertilizer, plastics, medicine needs it... 5. what about the cars on the road today, race cars, jets and museum pieces? So yeah right now in 2023 it's unwise to get off dino juice in it's enteirity...
The "don't charge you electric car" statement was put out when the grid was having a tough time because of the Air Condition load during extreme heat. As you said later, it was just shift when you charge if you can & reduce the electrical load by turning up your thermostat for a/c. I will add substantial battery capacity to avoid the peak rate times.
Dennis Lyons: And the best way to handle that would be to have high demand pricing for electricity during such a time, especially for heavy loads (like charging an EV). That way if a handful of people per million have a crisis and a real need to charge for some reason, they can can do so, and everyone with a brain can wait until things cool down and charge overnight, perhaps on a timer, when rates should be cheaper and power more plentiful. And CLEAR, effective messaging would be best, so people don't panic, get greedy re "I want my battery charged NOW" for fear of missing out on a charge, etc. If people know they can charge EVERY DAY, NO PROBLEM, then 99%+ won't have a problem avoiding the high demand window, ESPECIALLY if the price is significantly higher during that time (as it should be).
Keep in mind that if you have to alert the public to actively shift their habits, that does indicate you have recognized a shortfall, a potential problem, or serious issue. When the power grid is robust, people can choose when and where they charge.
Thanks Tom, I’ve been waiting for this video for quite a while. I think this could be one of the most important videos you’ve made for the layman’s acceptance of EVs.
For multi-tenant dwellings, there are interesting EV chargers that can create virtual queues. This would seem great for utilities because it would spread out the charging over the night. If your car charges from 9pm to 2am or from 2am to 7am, you'll still have a full charge in the morning. It also would seem like a good idea to encouraging charging at workplaces if you combine that with encouraging solar generation at workplaces. Also, France has mandated all car parks have to add solar panels to them over some percentage of the footprint of land. I'd be curious if California would consider that and how the utilities can handle that level of power coming into the grid.
Wonderful video, and a lot of information! I would like to explain the tract of homes I grew up in Huntington Beach, with gas furnace, and 100 amp service to each home, and about 7 homes per transformer located in the back yard. So upgrading 1/2 of the homes to a 200 amp service would also require installing a lot of new transformers. It might even require new or upgraded amperage at the 4,100 volt level that serves all the transformers in each tract of homes. Customers have installed air conditioners, and that will add a 30 amp circuit to each home with air conditioners. The EV charger "Could" be a 50 amp circuit, or a 24 amp, or 16 amp. 50 amps is 12 KW per hour, while 24 amp is only about 6 KW, and 16 amp 4 KW. So do you "Have" to charge at 50 or 24 amps? Not really. I know people who charge their electric cars on 120 volt power, and do it just fine. 16 amps is barely going to change your electric usage. And it does not require charging during the peak hours. Battery chargers could connect to the internet, and then ask for a charge speed number. It could be 30, 60, 100, 125, 150. So at 100, the chargers would know they can charge at 100% of their normal rating. If 30, then the grid is saying there might be a crisis, and charging at 30% is a better idea. If it is say 125, then maybe the local solar panels are producing more power than the grid is using this hour, and you can charge as fast as you like. At 150, then the grid is producing so much power, that the electric utility is saying we have so much renewable power online, and no customers wanting to buy 100% of it, then you can fill your car at a discounted rate until we are back to 125. So rather than have a bunch of wind turbines and solar going offline because the power voltage is to high, or the frequency is going to fast, (called curtailment) they could give the EV chargers a signal that "Charge away, even at a discounted rate for the next 15 minutes (or more)." One who has studied history, look at how quickly they went from steam power to diesel locomotives in the early 50's. Once they discovered how much less expensive the diesel electric locomotive was than the old coal systems, the change over happened much faster than anyone would have guessed in 1948. Afterall someone said "Why would they scrap a 10 year old coal fired locomotive that is worth $150,000 when it only has 150,000 miles on it?" They just thought it was impossible to scrap so many fairly new steam trains, that where barely broken in. And by 1960, you could barely find anyone running coal fired steam trains. I think that steam trains changed in less than 10 years, and electric cars will change within 10 years as well. Not 100% of them, but I would say that 75% of all cars on the freeways in 2035 will be electric. With the Biden $5 gas and diesel, that can happen faster than anyone would have guessed back in 2020. They are producing many vehicles with over 200 miles of range, and the ability to recharge at 200 KW per hour rate, or only about 15 - 30 minutes to charge enough to add 100 miles of range. Big rig trucks can tow a trailer with a 100 HP motor on the trailer and a 200 KW battery pack. Yes they make these now, and they save 13% of the diesel fuel on trucks that tow a trailer with this sort of system on the trailer. Big rig trucks can charge via overhead trolly lines that are located above the freeway lanes, especially over the hills going up the grapevine, and other long hills. And have the trolly lines run about 10 miles at a time, and then 30 miles without the overhead lines. Another problem is battery charger input voltage. City Hall in Long Beach CA has 4,160 volt powered water chillers for the HVAC system. Changing a battery charger to 4,160 volts input will drastically reduce the amperage going into the battery charger for trucks and 350 KW and larger battery chargers. 1,000,000 watt charger at 4,160 volts = 139 amp load, or a 175 amp circuit breaker. While a 480 volt system would be 1,200 amps! Then there is the "Solar Solution". Lets take Huntington Beach again. Say that there is a 500 house tract of homes with a 100 amp service in each home, but only a base load of about 2 KW per hour, or 1,000 KW per tract of homes. If they instal la 5 KW solar system in each home, then the power will be reduced to zero to that tract of homes, but that will not happen. Lets say they install about 4 KW - 5 KW to about 25% of the homes. Now during the daylight hours, the tract of homes with solar will be reduced to almost down to 0 KW for the peak daylight hours. Then back up to 1,000 KW during the 4 pm - 9 pm time, and then slightly lower overnight. The EV's can be charged overnight at home, and use a reasonable amount of power. Between 11 pm and 6 am, that is 7 hours, and at 6 KW that is 42 KW of power. So that is plenty for most trucks to go 85 miles a day. Cars can go much farther on 42 KW of power, using about 3 miles per KW. And most people do not drive over 65 miles a day, X 20 days a month, that total is 1,300 miles a month! The problem with demand charges is a huge problem. They need to find a way to reduce those demand charges.
@@lizburgess4398Sorry, only Tesla & BYD, so far, have durable & reliable battery technologies & strategies. Sorry you bought the others’ koolaide. My SIL did the same, without first consulting her automotive trained & experienced BIL, so ended up canning her Bolt (I told her it was the worst EV choice, of all) & got a Tesla & is very pleased. Let’s learn from our mistakes & not merely regret them!
@@lizburgess4398 Current EV’s may not be able to upload to the grid but as technology improves it likely will not be an issue. We’re just at the beginning of the EV revolution.
@@lizburgess4398 I don't think battery degradation is a concern, since power transfer would be at a very slow rate, and would shut off long before the EV battery gets to a very low level. I think the bigger issue, though, will be cost of equipment. Will people buy a bidirectional home charger if it costs $800 more than a charger which can only transfer power from grid to car, and not the other way around? Similarly, if supporting vehicle to grid adds $500 worth of hardware to the inside of the vehicle, would the consumer be willing to pay that? Unless the actual costs of such equipment is much less than I'm imagining, or if the monetary incentives of having it are larger than I'm imagining, you simply won't have enough V2G adoption to be able to help the grid much. And then, of course, there's the problem that if you want EVs to absorb excess solar energy during the day, most of them won't even be parked at home, but at workplaces.
Hey Tom, don’t take this the wrong way. I follow and watch almost everything you produce and enjoy. I am a fan but…maybe wear a non-black shirt….you look like a floating head with the background. LOL.
I think what a lot of naysayers forget about or ignore is the fact that the EV transition will happen gradually. Most places banning ICE vehicles by 2035 only applies to new vehicles not used. Cars have a rather long lifespan if kept in good repair. One can easily get 15-20 years of service out of a modern car - and of course we have classics which are much, much older. Keeping that in mind, the transition will likely take 20-30 years. While we can't ignore the power needs of the future, we should have plenty of time to ramp up.
I am pretty up on this but I just love your videos Tom! I really like the interviews you did here. I think it is kind of a soft ban in CA. You can still register new ICE vehicles purchased out of state.
I think that by the year 2035, they may not allow the registration of any ICE vehicle built after MY 2035. So my guess is that Ford and GM might build a lot of vehicles well into 2035 and call them 2034 models? Then they can be sold out of state and used as replacements for the older cars and trucks. On the other hand, with $5 gas and $6 diesel, I think that electric car acceptance is going to be much higher in California than other nearby states. I happen to love my plug in hybrid C-Max that gets 40 MPG with it's 4 cylinder engine and 18 miles with it's 7.5 KW battery that costs only $0.75 to fill in Portland Oregon at our very low utility rates. And I am seeing a lot of electric cars right now. Some have 150+ mile range too. Actually most have 150+ mile range.
@@Kangenpower7 The no registrations would be a change from the current policy. So who knows. I think the goal will be easily achievable outside of the pickup truck market. Ford and GM are moving to electric pretty fast. It will be the Japanese companies that may still be laggards.
EV owners mostly charge when the electricity is cheap. So why worry about charging during peak hours? That will not become a problem, when it is so effectively managed by electricity price.
Another thing I'd like to know is what will the utility authorities do to ensure that their stations are up and reliable? If they're being used by apt dwellers and such, then there will be used by more people, more often, and more carelessly than current DC fast charging. If these stations are as unreliable as EA stations are or more, then this is another iceberg waiting to happen.
How do you convince every EV owner to sign up to share their battery, seems the incentive would need to be really high. Current controls the utility tries to use today to control your power, no AC in the summer when demand is high I would not sign up for as the incentive is not high enough. I think it will vary per state, in Utah electric is cheap.
This is a really great video that puts into light what is really going on and the items that are needed to make the transition to cleaner , public transportation available. The biggest thing I am not seeing it the existence of V2G or even V2H EV's. Even in much of the conversation on 2023-2025 EV's manufacturers are talking about, nearly none if any are talking about that. Ford and Hyundai are the only ones are those are still very limited.
I don't really see it as profitable to have a VTG system for a car with a 65 KW battery. While a bus with a 265 KW battery is another story, and worth spending $4,000 on a charger / inverter system that can be connected to 4 bus at once, and allowed to charge them all together and draw out the power when the grid needs it during the summer, when these busses are parked for weeks at a time! 100 bus fleet using 25 of these $4,000 inverter/ chargers can provide about 20 MW of power to the grid every day. Still that is a in-significant amount of power to California where the grid load is about 20,000 MW at any given hour of the day and night, with more on hot days and a little less at night. Still the solar systems are producing 14,000 MW of power all day long, and this tapers off a lot around 4 pm. So that is why 20 MW is very small amount of power. Some of the diesel peaker power plants use something like a very large diesel locomotive engine and can produce 8 - 16 MW of power for each engine. The turbine systems can be 4 MW to 25 MW each, and they normally have a collection of a dozen or more in one location, so that one crew can look over them when they are turned on. So not manned until they predict they will be needed, and then manned from noon to 9 pm on a few days each month. Both of these systems can be powered by diesel or natural gas, depending on the engine type. Now that Tesla has Mega Packs of batteries, they can put out 500 MW of power for 4-8 hours. But they also need to get refilled with about 20% more power than what is recovered within about 24 hours.
Thank you for doing this! If you have any pull for a new spot- the desert up 15 to Rochester would be wonderful! It takes an extra 2 hours to drive a loop out to PA to reach Bath NY is not great. This is made worse by the fact the station at Bath NY has no bathrooms and the area eateries are often closed. Thank you again!
Another great video with info I was interested in. With the rise of V2G (vehicle to grid) I wonder if any of the current chargers on your wall could handle that?
No they aren’t. You are assuming people will drain their ev batteries to help support the grid en masse. But once something happens where the car is needed and the battery is very low, now this person will stop or greatly reduce draining their batteries. Also this will cause more battery degradation, so it will cost people more for the cost of the ev and added inconvenience due to reduced range. Also, this doesn’t solve all the potential issues. This really only helps to some degree when it comes to getting enough power generation at a given time. But what happens if most people decide to charge all at once and it exceeds what the grid can support? Does charging speed drop to a crawl? Does the grid crash?
It seems that NY has a better plan than CA. I haven’t heard anything about any CA power providers installing DC fast chargers. And if they did, the price per kWh would be so high that it would not make sense to charge there.
I’ve been in the north Texas area since 1982 and have seen constant building going on. They have to be adding thousands of new AC units every single day. During that time not a single person ever asked if all that would “break the grid”. To single out just one new thing to panic about seems like someone with an agenda started that crap.
I am amazed that nobody who is talking about v to g has thought about battery warranty as I asked Tesla this question a couple of years ago and they said that as long as they warranty the battery they wont be doing it, which makes sense
Thank you Tom! I'm an Apt. dweller in NYC and you and the panels answered most of the questions I have for EV charging in urban areas. I'd be first in line to buy an EV if we had convenient charging around where we live. I have thought and thought about transitioning to an EV for the last 4 years or so and still don't have the courage to switch because of charging issues I'll be facing. I really hope NY, CA and rest of the country will follow up on what they're promising. I really enjoy your contents and want to thank you from bottom of my heart. Keep up the good work!!
I rent a Chicago apartment and also have nowhere to install a home charger. 2 years ago I decided to buy an EV. Here's what convinced me that it was viable. US national average annual miles is 13k. That works out to 36 mi per day. A 240V 30A L2 EVSE can deliver 6 kW. To replenish 36 mi would need under 1.5 h. That's per day. I found public L2 plugs around where I run errands, places I spend time, etc. Charging opportunistically, 30 min here, 10 min there, I can reasonably achieve that 1.5 h. Even better, there's a garage a 5 min walk from my office with 3 L2 plugs. In the 9 hours I work, I can charge the battery to full. If all 3 plugs are in use, there are 120V 15A sockets all over. In 9 hours, these can replenish 45 real miles (based on my 270 Wh/mi lifetime usage). My round trip is only 24 mi. So every time I go to the office, whether I charge on L2 or L1, I leave with a net mileage gain. In a city as populous as NYC, I would imagine similar or better L2 availability. As for cost, yes public charging costs more than my home electric, but I'm still saving vs gas. Each time I charged, I looked up nearby gas prices and based on my previous gas car's 27 mpg, I was saving half before gas prices went insane. Now I'm saving 62%. So many people are pushing for more DCFC installs, but I think that's solving the wrong problem. The cost of one DCFC can easily fund many more L2. Maintenance costs are lower too. Put them everywhere people park: curbside, retail spaces, garages. This will address the most common use case and help. Sure there are long distance drivers (I put 34k miles on my car in under 2 years road tripping cross country), but these are outliers. The more common use case is in town local driving. Addressing the common use case with ubiquitous L2 and educating people on opportunistic charging will help uptake.
@@dssyenon I'm so glad that things are working out for you. Where I live, Queens, NY unfortunately does not have infrastructures you have in Chicago. No L1 or L2 chargers around me and nearest 72kw Tesla charger is in a mall 15 mins away and you have to pay for parking. My commute is 35 miles oneway and there are some L2 charging stations about a mile away. I thought about getting a scooter to travel bet the charger and work if I bought an EV. I soooo want to drive an EV but every time I think about it it's like hitting a concrete wall with inconveniences and impracticality. And this is only the charging part. There are EV services, reliability and unknowns to worry about. Would you buy an EV again if you had to do it again with same circumstances? Thank you for your detailed input, it helped me a lot.
It's very disappointing to learn of L2 scarcity in Queens. I've also written to my local government (mayor and alderman level) asking what they are doing to help the move to EVs, with a similar explanation that more L2s are what we need in the near term. Montreal figured out curbside charging. When I visited last year, within a 5 min walk of my apartment there were 6 plugs. Cities I visited in Indiana have similar plans to build out L2 locally. I think more cities should follow this strategy but they won't know about it unless we tell them and ask for it.
Duke energy here in Fl does not have TOD rates but gives me a $10 rebate monthly for charging late at night. Last month I spent $13 charging at home at .13 per kwh. Duke rebated me $10 so it cost me $3 for energy to drive my Bolt last month.
My problem isn't the fear that the grid will go down, rather, it's the fact that it simply isn't economically viable to go EV in the places where EVs make the most sense. I live about 40 miles west of Boston, MA. My current electric bill is just shy of $0.34 per kWh. The reason is that while several coal and nuclear plants have been shut down, nothing new has been built. Bringing natural gas into the area is a problem due to pipeline capacity and a recent attempt to increase capacity failed because most areas that would be impacted by the pipeline would not get any access to the gas. I don't blame people forbidding impacts on their community if there is no benefit to them. As a result, we are continuing to buy more and more of our power from Canada. The costs to buy, transmit, and deliver are nuts. I'd love to simply put solar on the house to offset my use. The problem there is that there is a 10 kWh limit on solar. I'm at the max and we can't even cover our household use anymore due to the difference between the credit and cost difference in the so called "Net Metering". So, adding an EV would result in us having to pay going rates for power. This is not just here. Nearly every major urban area faces power price problems. When the gas pump is hovering around $3 and your electric bill is now at $0.34, you simply can't find a way to make the EV a more economical option. I've been tracking every ounce of fuel I've used since 2006. In April of 2006, pump gas was $2.589. Roughly that same period, my electric cost was $0.14 per kWh. Yes, gas prices have bounced around some with highs as close as $5 per gallon, but they don't last historically. While there are some seasonal blips in power, the trend is continually upward. My current vehicle is a 2009. My vehicle prior to that was a 1996. The 1989 before that was totaled by a drunk driver. Before that, I was driving junk as a student. I'm in the process of handing over the 2009 to my 17yo son and buying my next vehicle. In all honesty, I'm probably looking at keeping it until nearly 2040. I have a MaxPack reservation on a Rivian that I've had maybe 3 years now, but given the economics (and the fact that Rivian keeps deleting features on me), I'm not sure if it makes sense. The Aptera is a whole lot of win, but with just 2 seats and very limited capacity, I'm not sure how that would work. Fuel wise, it's a win hands down. And even here in New England, that would never rust out. But damn. I downsized a lot when I got the 2009 Volvo C30 (from a V0 Ram 2500) but it worked because I could still seat 4 and tow a 1000 lb trailer. a 2 seater with no towing and a 500 lb payload??? I don't know.
Really enjoyed watching this video and as someone who works in the industry in Southern California I know about EV adoption and how we need to prepare our grid. Exciting times to come in the next few years.
I think we can be ready, but should probably limit the home chargers to about 24 amps per charger, or maximum of 32 amps per household. And hopefully get timers or something that talks to the utility and have it give out a point system where a signal of 30 means to run the chargers at 30% of maximum output, (brownout is about to happen) while a signal above 100 would mean that there is plenty of power during this hour of the day, go ahead and charge at your max capacity. A signal of 125 or 150 might mean that there is so much solar and wind power that many are in curtailment due to higher than normal voltage, please charge now! Even giving a discount for power consumed during a time when the score is above 200. People often say "Well electric cars are going to use electricity" and seem to forget that oil refineries use electricity too, and will reduce that amount of electricity when they are not pumping oil, pumping crude oil from all over southern California to the refinery in Torrence, pumping gasoline from Shell in Long Beach to Las Vegas and Phoenix.
Something I've taken note of is how the trends towards the predominance of online shopping is putting a strain on the financial viability of many shopping malls, mainly in the USA but also to a far lesser extent, elsewhere. Since many EV drivers are already aware of the convenience of the electron sip & charge model - i.e. get in quick, take just what you need, get out quick - I think that a great many shopping malls/centre owners would stand to benefit greatly by offering/upgrading their outdoor carparking areas to solar canopied charging stations (including) the circulatory access parts of their parking facilities. One of the prime benefits to society at large is that this helps to answer the questions surrounding multi-occupancy dwelling housing charging issues. Shopping centres (already) have HVDC power supply lines & it should be much easier to upgrade these rather than try to bring large amounts of extra supply capacity as part of retrofit measures to existing multi-occupancy dwellings. Just as we see (@ least here in the UK) BOGOFF - By One, Get One Free, we could start to see SCS - Stop, Charge, Shop!, as a commonly seen patronage enticement. The charging doesn't necessarily have to be free. It could be a charged at cost or for profit business model. And we shouldn't dismiss the marketing appeal of the socially aware eco credentials of any given business to potential customers; this has already happening for quite some time across a wide range of products & services & customers have started to vote with their wallets, therefore this has real world impacts to both climate & bottom lines.
This is why I think coffee shops, slower paced full service restaurants and green spaces and parks or recreation businesses like gyms are the best place to build charging amenities. People hang out at these places for longer periods of time and L2 chargers are much much much cheaper than DC fast charging. 2 hrs of L2 charging gets the average driver 4 days worth of range. The integration here is a no brainer
@@tonydeveyra4611 They are excellent places to lurk whilst your charging. But so are shopping centres and supermarkets because the weekly shopping, particularly grocery shopping, often seems to take about 45-60 minutes at a minimum & sometimes even longer depending on the timing of your visit & they [don't] necessarily need to be anything other than level 2 chargers since the average commuting & or school runs don't normally equate to high mileage anyway. The more 'Sip & Go' charging stations about should be adequate to meet most people's needs if they plug in at every opportunity, only charging to 80% or more for journeys of longer duration.
Pink Elephants, I have seen a couple of free charging stations show up next to Kholls in the Portland Oregon area, that are fed with 16 amps at 240 volts, while you are in there shopping. At $0.10 per KW, it can only cost $1 per hour to supply 9.6 KW to a customer. They are also showing up at Hotels that want to attract EV owners, and I think they will find it a requirement more in the next 5 years. I can see the front desk to have a video camera on the charging station, because many will call "Do you have a open space?" and don't want to send out the front desk person to check it in person. Every mall that I have been to and serviced the HVAC system, they run on 480 volts three phase power. So it is possible to install a 30 amp service to power a 20 KW charger to the customers. Anything much larger, and they would need to expand the 480 volt service to the mall. Many times the electric company would like to install these chargers in the center of the parking lot, not next to the existing power supply (due to underground power lines they do not want to install anything next to the underground wiring that might be within 15 feet of the place on the blueprints that they are supposed to be installed in). If the utility is installing a dozen of the 200 KW EV chargers, that is 2,400,000 watts, or enough that a larger power system than that serving the mall is being installed at the charger station. Many of the larger EV charger stations that I see on You Tube video's such as the one in Baker CA, along I 15 between LA and Las Vegas, they have several of the 350 KW and 200 KW EV chargers, enough to require a 10 MW power system or much more! I used to work for Weiser Lock, and they had 3 each 2,500,000 watt 480 volt transformers feeding the 750,000 square foot building. They fed that into 3 each 4,000 amp 480 volt bussbars, to the various parts of the manufacturing plant. My guess is this system is much larger than the power supply to Westminster Mall, a few miles away. The 10 MW transformer was fed 67,000 volts and stepped down to 12,000 volts to the smaller transformers that fed the 480 volts into the building. The 10 MW transformer was about 10 feet cube.
@@Kangenpower7 That's very interesting. I agree it will probably become a prerequisite for doing business, either due to customer demand or due to either national, regional or local legislation depending on where in the world the jurisdiction is. I may not have made it clear enough but I was thinking in terms of (every) parking space having its own charging stall and this is why I, who knows nothing about power supply line demands, thought it may be necessary to have HVDC power supply. You seem to be knowledgeable, I'm just a know nothing dummy.
One thing I never here anyone discuss is that if a bunch of chargers are installed at low income apartments, there are probably going to be a lot of criminals cutting off the charge chords and anything else they can get there hands on to sell the copper for a few bucks. Sad but true.
It's already happening. Stopped by a place where I charge on my way home and all the cords of the level 2 stations were cut off. There is a lot of homeless in that area not to mention the cable thieves. I am surprised it didn't happen sooner.
@@tonydeveyra4611 But, making the user bring their own cable doesn't eliminate the theft problem. It just shifts the loss from the owner of the charger onto the user (although it at least mitigates it somewhat, since there's only a cable to steal at a time when someone is actually charging). The ultimate solution to cable theft could eventually become wireless charging. Eliminate the cable to steal altogether.
Great video! Here's a few key points that I wish had been added. 1. Much of the DCFC usage would go away if the public were better educated about using slower charging from where the vehicle is parked overnight. This will alleviate the need for so much DCFC infrastructure in our bedroom communities. 2. We need to mandate efficiency standards for EV manufacturers. And let's push for high numbers like 4 miles per kWh minimum light duty vehicles AND SUVs. Having a bunch of EVs with lousy efficient isn't doing us much good. It only lines the pockets of EV manufacturers. 3. Let's get behind companies like Aptera that are building solar EVs. These types of vehicles can add up to 40 miles of range per day just by being in the sun. This will meet the vast majority of our daily driving needs, fully eliminating much of our carbon footprint associated with our typical daily driving patterns. Aptera's SEV is also anticipated to be highly efficient, getting a little more than 10 miles per kWh. That's equivalent to getting 350 mpg! It'll be so efficient that plugging in the vehicle to a simple 110 outlet overnight will add around 150 miles of range! Starting at around $26,000, this is a reasonably affordable vehicle. However, the government needs to ensure incentives to purchase vehicles like Aptera are provided because it can certainly be a major part of the solution to our zero carbon footprint goals.
The SMUD rep is right, we need “right to charge” laws, like what Norway has, to address the apartment/condo issue. They require apartments/condos to have chargers. You should look into the NERC reports of the state of the grid. The next few years are going to be challenging as we go through this transition. As for demand charges, you need cheaper battery storage (and cheaper batteries are rapidly coming) on-site at the charger to buffer the grid. You can charge the cars off of the storage and “trickle” charge the storage. I’ve spent decades in grid operations, and while there will likely be stumbling blocks along the way, we’ll get there.
Tucker Carlson? Oh yeah, that's a shocker. Did you check out Alex Jones's opinion? Come on man, don't legitimize the comments of people who are, shall we say, have no clue about what they are talking about. It's silly. Interesting guest. Cheers!
My utility company in Oregon asks all customers to scale back on energy usage for ALL reasons during peak times. They also offer rebates if you use less than your typical amount during peak times….U.S. citizens expect everything for themselves at all times. We can’t both pollute the environment, not invest in sustainable infrastructure, and then complain when we have to scale back due to a lack of infrastructure.
One follow-up I would have asked the second interviewee is for him to define for us the difference between Energy and Power. The difference between them is time but he made it sound like they are fundamentally different units of measure. It also wasn’t clear where he was getting his numbers of 25%, 33%, 1 million, and 9 million from.
Eventually, solar will be so dominant as an energy source that, on most days, there will be a big surge in available energy around mid-day. Charging most EVs then will take up that excess energy. This will actually help the Grid, helping to alleviate the infamous "duck curve." Most electricity will not even have to travel far to reach its destination-in time or in space.
Thank you for putting this out there. We need more of this content instead of the click bait fear mongering nonsense. I am so tired of people parroting talking points they know nothing about. Lits like they think there will be no advances at all in the future to support this, which is ridiculous. Look at solid state batteries, NASAs space station current cooling tech, and I can't believe this is never brought up, but the recent (and very rapid) advances in nuclear fusion.
Vehicle to grid isn’t really “the answer”. It will help some but the real solutions will be large storage systems Tesla Mega Packs And home Solar with home storage is what will meet the energy demand of the early 2030’s and beyond.
Doug, while I do support EV's, and own a Ford C-Max hybrid with a 7.5 KW battery, I also think that the utility companies are not going to be ready for the electric cars that will appear in places where there is $5 gas and $6 diesel much sooner than they guess it will happen. So by the year 2028, I think that 50% of all California cars could be electric. Still I think they will be fine, as California can import lots of power from nearby states. Hopefully California will install enough wind power by the year 2030 to power all of these electric vehicles by then. They did auction a few offshore wind parks in Morrow Bay and off the coast of Northern California. But that power is not scheduled to be installed until 2024 at the soonest and 2030 to be 1/2 way completed. It is 4,000 MW of offshore wind power that they are planning to install.
Agreed!!! Parts of Oahu’s grid went down hard on 24 Dec - not enough renewable on a cloudy day - to many people home asking for electricity - am I am a person with solar and battery and all EV vehicles.
How will the grid handle semi trucks? It seems unfeasible to need a small sub station to fast charge one truck. They hold 1MW to go 500 miles. They need to charge in 15 minutes due to federal regulations on hours of service. This problem is further aggravated by team drivers traversing our country in 55 hours to meet customer demands.
Coffee shop chains like Starbucks etc, which hang their hats on being a "third place" hang out spots will be critical to providing charging for apartment dwellers that dont have at home charging. 240v L2 restore 40ish miles of range per hour. This means that 2 hours plugged in while drinking coffee and using the internet would get the typical American driver somewhere between 2 and 4 days of typical driving range. I think the first chain to build out this L2 infrastructure will have a unique way to pull in customers. Tesla is going to assert itself and dominate this little subsection of EV charging. They have all the pieces: One, they just rolled out a L2 J772 charger that is $200 cheaper than the competitions, and it can be used with commercial charging. Two, teslas app provides the most frictionless and enjoyable charging experience. Moreover with millions of drivers using their cars, a restaurant or similar retail establishment getting a listing on the map and inside the car's built-in map app can be a tremendously valuable bit of advertising, perhaps worth tens of thousands of dollars a year. Third, the sophistication and frictionlessness teslas in app payment system will give the businesses hosting the tesla L2 chargers more options for monetizing and harvesting the gains created by this amenity. For example, I think there are many examples where it will be more profitable for a business to offer free charging as a hook to get people to spend more on their primary offerings. Ie: get 2 hours of free charging if you spend >$60 at our restaurant. And unlike parking garages which offer parking ticket validation, there is literally no work on the end of the customers. No tickets to punch, no ticket machine to insert or cards to swipe. It would all happen behind the scenes in the app when the car plugs in. And, again, the business hosting the app can advertise free charging when you buy a burger or whatever to millions of EV drivers--and more relevantly, however many dozens are driving aroundb in a 5mi tadius--through the tesla app.
I think daytime charging with solar at places where cars are parked for a long period of time will be the solution for many people, including apartment dwellers. For most people, cars are used for commuting to work, so workplace charging can solve many issues and it may soon become the "benefit" that employees look for when the EV revolution happens.
David Lutz: Another example of why demand pricing makes sense. During super high energy days where there is actually a surplus of power due to wind and/or solar, it would be INSANE not to have all BEV's waiting for a charge to charge, all home battery backup systems, commercial power backup systems, etc. charging all they can. It might even make sense to make the power free or even PAY people to take a charge if the surplus is sufficient to make dumping the extra power a problem. And having milions of BEV's set up and plugged in, to be able to offer some power or take some power as the demand dictates is the PERFECT way to intelligently help stabilize the grid, re making millions of BEV's sitting at chargers part of a huge VPP for many power districts.
Eric offered to speak in more detail about their pilot rate to offer demand charge relief. I'm disappointed you didn't get into it. Would be nice to get more numbers and details of that in the future
Pleased to hear issue of people living in condominiums & apartments. Here at a 52 unit Florida condo, I installed a smart EV charger that directly bills registered users for energy used. We establish 3- 8hr periods of the day to cue in vehicles. Since users don’t charge every day, one unit easily serves over 5 EVs. When capacity is reached, we will add a 2nd load balanced charger. Even at an increased adoption rate, this solution should satisfy our needs for 5-7 years or more.
One series of questions I would like to see you add is along the lines of....how many vehicles do your family have? Do you have EVs? What do you currently drive?
What an excellent presentation. One difference in Ontario, Canada is we outsourced a lot of manufacturing. The grid was built to support those manufacturers resulting in some breathing room before expanding power generation is required. Ontario definitely has some black holes up in cottage/vacation country in terms of charging infrastructure ... we'll get there though. Rather than charging infrastructure, it still requires price parity before EV sales take off. Mandates won't help when anyone can just buy an used ICE vehicle. Cheers, Steve
Grids are always overbuilt. Not just for room to grow, but in of worst case scenarios happening like it there is a huge random power usage soak for some random reason. In terms of evs, of all evs are charged throughout the day equally every hour, then grids will likely be fine. But if 100% decide to charge over a few hours, will the grid still survive? I don’t think so. Many things are built to account for the worst case scenario.
Awesome video Tom, its so nice to learn from experienced experts in there fields that share the facts and not wild rumours and fiction. If two of largest populated states in the US, have a plan then the rest of the country should be just fine. Very interesting point at the end, the biggest threat to power disruptions is not EV adoption it is extreme weather.... Here were I live in Vancouver BC Canada, EV adoption is the highest in the country at approx. 20%. The government here is pushing hard to ban ice engines were EV sales must reach 10% of new light-duty vehicle sales by 2025, 30% by 2030 and 100% by 2035.
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Well done Tom! This is the kind of information that the mainstream media should be providing because it’s important for everyone, not just early EV adopters, to understand. Unfortunately the subject has become politicized with a segment of the population rooting for EVs to fail. There is no doubt that we are at a tipping point that could give the naysayers all the ammo they need to say I told you so. EA must up their game. They are the predominant fast charging network along most major corridors, at least here in the east, and they are failing to provide a consistent, always available service to the public. Along the PA Turnpike there are only two DC fast charger sites between Pittsburgh and King of Prussia and none at Breezewood for anyone heading south. Unless you drive a Tesla, a trip east from Pittsburgh if a crap shoot.
Keep up the great content Tom, it’s much appreciated.
For sure, unfortunately, the group of people who resist this the most do not believe mainstream media. The internet fuels nonsense on all topics and this one is where some of the most ignorant thrive.
Great video and very happy you took the time provided this information!
These are the interviews I like. 👏
The UK's National Grid has been looking forward to & planning for, EV's as a crucial part of the transition to a fully renewables based grid for the same reasons the gentleman from SMUD expressed. 2035 is (far too late) for the banning of new ICE car sales.
The UK's own deadline (was) 2035 but when reviewed, it was brought (forward) to 2030; in light of the rapidly increasing pace of climate change, 7yrs as opposed to 12yrs makes much more sense. I really admired the USA for being amoungst the very 1st countries (in the world) to provide an EV incentive for (used) EV's; France being the only other one that I'm aware of.
I'd like to see the banning of (used ICE) cars by 2037 & 2040 @ the latest; nothing drives change quite like Gov't policy & legislation - pun intended. This will seem radical & unattainable by many, but humanity just HAS to get to grips with climate change prevention & mitigation action now or we're literally cooked! COP22 was a complete waste of time; Bla Bla, Bla as Greta Thunberg likes to say.
Really enjoyed this episode as it made a nice change from the usual purely charging product based content. Could we perhaps have a bit more like this please, Tom?
Great show Tom, thanks for putting this together.
I'm a SMUD customer and have an EV and they've been great. SMUD, unlike PG&E, has been able to avoid brown-outs. They are very good at managing the grid. Also, they're hugely supportive of EVs. I have a nearly free EV rate between midnight and 6am, and they installed a free level 2 charger for me at my house, and they offer rebates for solar. If every utility were as proactive as they are, the transition to electric would be a lot easier.
Because they burn natural gas. Natural gas turbines are a incredible reliable and efficient source of electricity.
While I want a electric truck, I fully understand the electricity for my truck will be generated by burning natural gas.
you fell for their scam. they are GIVING you free shit, because they will get it back later when prices increase due to "supply and demand"
1. Sounds like Oregon, where the capital city has its own utility control, and IS NOT mandated to use solar and wind. The rest of Cal, UNLIKE YOUR LITTLE BUBBLE, relies on unreliable and mostly nonexistent power from solar and wind, and as a result DOES NOT have that reliability.
2. Policy and good vibes do not equal enough power to run everything AND charge EVs. As well, no one plugs their vehicle in for any reason other than to be charged up.
You did notice the line used, as far as the populace 'modifying their behavior' to 'make this work.' THIS is the final goal...CONTROL.
Re: Utility FUDsters. Totally disagree. Perhaps a bit of humility is called for, here. Having worked over a decade in the industry, I know how very competent their SMEs are & you’re completely missing how they have more than taken ALL the variables into consideration (they can be quite obsessive, including with all sorts of engineering trials, I assure you) going forwards decades, due to the immense costs & consequences of their decisions. You’re just missing all the things he didn’t have time to dwell on. Brownouts, etc., are all components of planned resiliency. VPP trials are just starting to model out the technologies & price incentives. Before long, that will wholly replace the very costly & slow responding peaker turbines. Maybe a bit of research would be in order before revealing your ignorance, so vehemently.
@GHsCrunch You know, if I were some millenial twat living in effbook and twatter, you might have shown me. But since I'm NOT, and have taken the time to actually talk with the people I mentioned...from 3 different regional power utility companies...I think you need to sit down and stop drinking this kool-aid.
This is not a matter of a fully fleshed out system upgrade or even modification. This is an engineering job done instead by bureaucrats and green grift lobbyists. Attempts to shore this disaster up with things like home solar or V2G 'solutions,' are just spit and bailing wire and a prayer.
The grid lines need to be able to handle AT LEAST twice the power they do now, from transmission stations to distribution transformers. There needs to be around 30% or more BASELOAD available to support this, which leaves out solar, wind, and batteries. And there need to be people willing to say NO to this hacking up of the grid. At the very least, they should be lobbying to break the grid up into smaller state region chunks to avoid one green folly from bringing everyone else down.
You can assure people as much as you want. Unfortunately for you, the continual near collapse and outright shutdown of grids trying to push this insanity, makes your assurances ring a little empty.
Wow, your guest mentioned a bus depot where an apartment building is right next door, with the stench of diesel exhaust and all the health impacts. It's also dismissal time at so many schools where there is a 12-bus queue of diesel buses, all idling, with a huge crowd of kids all around, inhaling those fumes. It will be so great not to smell that "bus depot" smell anymore.
You won’t see all electric bus fleet anytime soon there is no possible way for say 60 busses to charge at one site without considerable infrastructure.
Great episode. Maybe as a followup to this you could do a show talking more about the effects of bi-directional peak shaving on the expected life of the vehicle battery.
Manufacturers warranty was mentioned, but that only matters to the manufacturers. It's easy for a vehicle to last 3 to 6 times longer than the warranty. How many less years of service would the owner get out of a battery? How often do these events happen? How much incentive does the utility have to offer the customer to fully compensate the customer for battery wear?
Is it enough to just power the house wholly off the vehicle's battery to eliminate consumption at peak times as opposed to actively pumping energy into the grid and incurring its inherent line losses? How much capacity does the utility need to 'borrow' from customers during peak events?
Gary, I don't think the small battery packs used in a car is what the utility company is interested in. A 265 KW battery pack in a parked school bus over the summer, next to another 100 busses in a parking lot would make a great sized battery for back up, and drawing out 15 MW of power every day. While a 65 KW battery in a car, it is way to small to make a $4,000 battery charger that has bi-directional inverter installed in it worth while.
I installed a 16 amp 240 volt vehicle charger from China that cost about $169. The Ford charger / home power system will cost something in the range of $2,500+ and installation where they have a dedicated panel for your "Critical" loads will add a lot to that expense, and they don't talk about that much.
A generator power panel for a portable 10,000 watt generator cost at least $650 and will cost about $1,200 - $1,500 to have it installed and get permits will add at least $600 more along with the need to have a electrician spend 4 hours waiting around for the inspector to show up and give it's approval. Fine if you are working down the street on a tract of homes, but if you are across town and the inspector shows up, you have to drop everything and get back to the home where you are waiting for the inspector.
Oh cool, I am first! V2G is the ultimate solution. But before bi-directional charging technology is in place, smart EVSE (chargers) technology needs to be implemented. It really is pretty simple. The EVSE has the ability to turn on or off charging to the vehicle, and it can taper down or increase to MAX the charge rate to the vehicle. This is accomplished by altering the duty cycle in the pilot pin in the j1772 connector. With a WIFI or cellular connected EVSE, the power company can message the EVSE when the grid is stressed more or less. All the EV owner needs to do is tell the car what time they need the car to be fully charged. Then the turning on/off and charge rate will be determined by the power company in order to minimize stresses on the electric grid.
This is already being done with some power companies with home owners equipped with smart HVAC thermostats. The power company can reduce HVAC consumption during high stress times of day and more HVAC consumption when there is surplus energy in the grid. Of course right-wing media will latch on to this and say it’s big+government (big brother) spying on us. They already are saying this about connected smart thermostats, imagine how they are going to flip about saying how the government will take control of how you charge your car? Well this will just be a stop-gap until solar PV and V2G is fully implemented, but this will take a long time I’m afraid and the power companies generally do not want individual home owners (customers) to take control of their energy.
The grid is being rebuilt to add renewables and phase out fossil fuel electricity generation, so a comprehensive process. The grid in 2035 will not look anything like today's grid. California is also requiring new homes to have solar panels included, and this is a trend all over the country, so lots of decentralized power coming on line. I charge my own EV with an off-grid solar + battery system, so no burden on grid.
Excellent interview with the SMUD REP!
Great Video Tom. Great interview. Keep up the great job.
1:01:14 Some of the negative comments are coming from said basements.
Tom, this is my favorite video of the year by a landslide.
Jokes aside, awesome video. I’ve heard all the commentary you've outlined here before and I'm excited to point the people interested in the topic to this video
This is no different than the computer and CRT monitor coming to every desk in the early 70s. This took huge amounts of energy that we don’t use anymore. A LED flat screen uses so much less power than a CR, laptops use less energy than desktops, and the office has low power LEDs. Just as that whole revolution was survived. I am sure we will survive this revolution too. My proposal is that all new construction and rebuilds must include renewable power, e.g. wind & solar, with batteries connected to the grid for balancing the power distribution.
California has required a solar system be installed in any new home, and remodels over a certain dollar value must also include a grid tied solar system, usually about 2-3 KW per house.
Wind power is not so easy to install at any address. It can only be installed in windy areas, and traditionally nobody built their homes in areas that have near constant 15 - 25 MPH winds all winter long. So the super windy areas normally don't have many towns in them, and thus no loads to that section of the state, and they need to put in power lines to export the power to places where people live that are not as windy.
As a distribution planning engineer for a utility in New York, I really appreciated this video. I spoke on a panel a couple months ago put on by Clarkson University regarding similar topics as these, and if I remember correctly, John from the Power Authority was in attendance. I had given my thoughts on EVs, and their effect on the grid. In distribution planning, this is exactly what we work on on a day-to-day basis; evaluating and coming up with distribution upgrades needed for large commercial loads (such as level 3 EV DC fast chargers). I can say with certainty, these fast chargers use a TON of power, many of them in upwards of a Megawatt, if all chargers at a particular location are utilized. For comparison, this can be more power than a strip-mall uses. Even residential chargers can draw 50 amps at 240V. Unfortunately, as it stands right now, there is (without a doubt) not enough capacity on many distribution circuits to handle this load, especially in rural areas. In some cases, the EV chargers are single-handedly taking up the last remaining capacity there is on the circuits. I think it is possible to serve the upcoming EV load, it's just going to take a lot of money- and time- to get there.
Great thought!
I guess it is a wonderful thing that New York will be installing about 4,000 MW of offshore wind power over the next 7 years. That should provide plenty of extra capacity, in addition to the hydroelectric power being bought from Canada.
I am hoping that in Canada, they can install several thousand MW of wind power, so they can then sell it in America. Also with plenty of cheap power in Canada, they can slow the use of home heating oil, propane heat, and even natural gas. This is because a heat pump can collect 100,000 Btu's with only 7-10 KW of electricity, while a gallon of propane or therm of natural gas, or gallon of fuel oil, they are much more expensive than the heat pump at about $1 per 100,000 Btu's. Even if the Canada customers will need to use the old oil heater, propane or natural gas on the few days below -5F.
Carrier makes a variable speed compressor outdoor heat pump unit that can be connected to a ducted A/C or a ductless indoor coil. They can collect the rated Btu's at -5 by speeding up the compressor to 120 Hz on the very cold days. Carrier used to sell a 3 part heat pump, with a water heating compressor section, and a indoor coil and outdoor coil. It was back in the 90's. However it came at a high price, so they stopped making it, due to low demand. SCE put one in their demonstration project building in LA area. If they could start making the water heater unit again, that could save homeowners a lot of money on heating water. In the summer, basically the hot water is free!
Yeah I was a bit confused when the guest said they have capacity for all the EV's and then said they are looking to use EV's to 'assist' in supplying power via upload to the grid. Well if you don't need the EV power for the grid why make that statement? That in itself opens up a number of questions. For example the EV customer is cycling their EV battery reducing its theoretical life to supply power for their neighbours clothes dryer. At what rate is the utility going to compensate the EV owner to upgrade their home equipment for 2 way flow and pay them for k/w's uploaded? So many questions and this video didn't address many of them.
Another extremely informative video. I should be receiving my first EV, a Lightning, in a week or so and your content has been very educational.
With so many people working from home, they can charge their car overnight when demand is low and then sell the energy back during the day, making money while doing it. Win-win situation.
On my street in Palo Alto, about 50% of the homes have at least one EV in their driveway (a few have two). Palo Alto has one of the highest EV ownership rates in the country, if not the highest - as evidenced by the number of Teslas, e-Golfs, Rivian's, ID.4's etc. that I see around town. We also have no grid issues to EV charging demand. I have lost power a handful of times over the past decade, due to a tree falling on a power line or a squirrel getting fried. As both your guests said utilities are always adjusting and getting ready for new forms of electricity demand. Getting a permit for your home EVSE ensures the city knows you will be charging an EV and it can evaluate the size of the local transformer.
I don't know for sure, but I think the grid will rise to the challenge as it has with every other mass adopted electric appliance. The refrigerator? Did the grid collapse, the electric dryer? The electric stove, the air conditioner....you see where I'm going with this.
Yep
So great to see you feature my electricity provider, SMUD, on your show! We’ve had our two EVs (Model 3 and VW ID.4) for a year and a half. SMUD has been terrific. They support EV adoption in many ways.
I am not at all worried about the EV future. Why? Because this is an evolving technology (technologies), not a static ancient destructive process like fossil fuels. Batteries are changing, delivery of power is changing, transportation is evolving… it’s all on the move.
(As an 8th generation Californian, I will say that I do appreciate those like tucker who effectively spread lies about California! Keep it up, tucker - let’s keep all those folks from moving here!)
Also keep in mind that the typical driver, EV or fossil fuel, drive around 40 miles a day. A full battery in an EV can deliver 200+ miles of range, meaning they store a few days of typical driving in case of a temporary power outage. Nothing to worry about.
And lastly the law you mentioned about sales of fossil fuel vehicles in California only applies to NEW ICE vehicles. Used car sales, the type of cars most people buy, are not impacted by the law. Sadly, we can’t simply remove ICE vehicles overnight. So, while I appreciate adding more anti-California spin, it’s in fact not true.
Great video as always, Tom!
I plug in after work and need my car charged when I leave for work. At most I need 4 hours of charging while being plugged in for 12 hours. I would happily give permission to my utility provider to manage when my car charges in exchange for a modest discount. I think this would go a very long way to smoothing out the grid usage.
I was watching a TH-cam by Electric Pro Academe, and they are in Indiana, and their utility offers a power supply to homeowners just to recharge EV's for $0.03 per KW to recharge a electric car. One video that they talk about the special rates is one home that has a $1,000,000 pool room and 1,200 service to the house and a additional 100 amp service with the special rate to the garage just for EV charging.
So IF you have a detached garage in Indiana, and plan to install another service just to power a EV, it can be used to power the EV with a very special power rate between midnight and 6 am.
@@jabelar2008
Usually, if a single household has four vehicles, it's about allowing for people to drive to 4 different places at the same, typically not everyone is going to have a long commute, so the total number of kWh used per day is less than you think. In most cases, simply having some cars take turns with the home's 8 kW charger, and letting the remaining cars trickle-charge on 110V outlets is good enough. In rare cases where it isn't, you can buy a home charge with two charging heads that is specially designed for splitting its power supply across multiple cars.
About the only time you really need several vehicles at the same location charging at full power, all night long, is commercial fleets, for example, a garage full of Amazon delivery trucks. In that case, they'll have to bite the bullet and upgrade their electricity service to handle that. But, for a normal 3/4 car household, it is usually not necessary.
thank you so much for this excellent discussion and topic
Fascinating.
Nice video, Tom! Both guests did a nice job and I thought John from NYPA hit the nail on the head, lots of good insight and comments from him. We are seeing and doing much the same in the Midwest. I'm really happy to see your interview with such quality guests. This is much more helpful to the industry and transition than other interviewers who don't have guests who are active in the industry with the same level of expertise. Thanks for bringing this quality info to the public!
Completely agree.
Grants for home owners to purchase solar along with battery storage can provide a stabilizing micro-grid scenario.
As a lightning owner l really appreciate your videos …Thank you … Hopefully Canada watch’s your video and starts to act or I’ll have to move to the US to charge
NY needs to talk to Tesla to look at proper charging and expansion. Put the politics away.
This is an excellent video and should be mandatory viewing! Thanks Tom!
*RE "This is an excellent video and should be mandatory viewing! Thanks Tom!"*
_Vee haff veys af meking you.....papieren bitte!_
You socialists have an orgasm every time you utter the word "mandatory" don't you?
Was is good for you this time Cheddar, not so much for me.
One of your best videos. Looking at where we have easy/cheap access to electricity is one way to look at it, and the other, is where are ALL of the places where cars sit for a while, parked, and can we get any kind of charger in there. I think we need simple cheap add-ons to robust level 2 chargers allowing for payment. As covered in the video, the third big factor is how to charge the majority of vehicles cost efficiently, both generation, and delivery. It is great to see it being worked on, because as Tom was thinking in his head, the EVs keep getting better. As more and more chargers keep popping up, more people are going to want them(hockey stick anxiety😁).
Some of the best EV content on TH-cam! Thx Tom & SoC team.
Tom thanks for the video good information. Your next video concerning this should be from states like South Dakota and Nebraska. Especially South Dakota I have been hearing from people living there that the grid in South Dakota can't provide enough electricity to power DCFC. I would like hear how the power companies are going to get charging set up in these rural areas where the population is very small. Once again thanks for all you do. I enjoy your channel and am a subscriber.
It is all a math problem. Somehow when they installed 200 amp service to each of 100 new mobile homes in South Dakota in 2015 to house the workers at the camps that are making the oil from fracking, and they are able to supply 1,000 amp 480 volt service to a oil pump, it is a surprise to me that they can not power a 16 amp electric charger at any house in any area of the state. When they stop pumping oil with those 1,000 HP pumps, and stop moving hundreds of gallons of oil to the refinery using electric pumps, they will have extra power to run the electric cars.
Something not to forget is that it takes alot of electricity to refine oil into petrol and diesel. As EV numbers start increasing the demand for fuel will decrease and les power will be needed to manufacture it. Also what can be done to control load on the grid is to have all home chargers controlled by the utility companies. If the load gets to high they can start cutting chargers and the owners may be allowed to do a manual over ride if they need to charge. In South Africa many houses has been fitted with a device that the utility can use to switch off electric geysers when load gets to high during peak loads.
Ok so I made this comment before finishing the video.
Their a few issues with that... 1. Why would that matter to states outside of California, and the gulf coast? 2. Hydrogen, Fustion is far worse 3.Dino juice is free energy and carben for the taking 4, Fertilizer, plastics, medicine needs it... 5. what about the cars on the road today, race cars, jets and museum pieces? So yeah right now in 2023 it's unwise to get off dino juice in it's enteirity...
Good interviews, I learn a lot
The "don't charge you electric car" statement was put out when the grid was having a tough time because of the Air Condition load during extreme heat. As you said later, it was just shift when you charge if you can & reduce the electrical load by turning up your thermostat for a/c. I will add substantial battery capacity to avoid the peak rate times.
Dennis Lyons: And the best way to handle that would be to have high demand pricing for electricity during such a time, especially for heavy loads (like charging an EV). That way if a handful of people per million have a crisis and a real need to charge for some reason, they can can do so, and everyone with a brain can wait until things cool down and charge overnight, perhaps on a timer, when rates should be cheaper and power more plentiful.
And CLEAR, effective messaging would be best, so people don't panic, get greedy re "I want my battery charged NOW" for fear of missing out on a charge, etc. If people know they can charge EVERY DAY, NO PROBLEM, then 99%+ won't have a problem avoiding the high demand window, ESPECIALLY if the price is significantly higher during that time (as it should be).
Keep in mind that if you have to alert the public to actively shift their habits, that does indicate you have recognized a shortfall, a potential problem, or serious issue. When the power grid is robust, people can choose when and where they charge.
Your interviews were fantastic. You should be a correspondent on 60 Minutes.
Thanks Tom, I’ve been waiting for this video for quite a while. I think this could be one of the most important videos you’ve made for the layman’s acceptance of EVs.
For multi-tenant dwellings, there are interesting EV chargers that can create virtual queues. This would seem great for utilities because it would spread out the charging over the night. If your car charges from 9pm to 2am or from 2am to 7am, you'll still have a full charge in the morning.
It also would seem like a good idea to encouraging charging at workplaces if you combine that with encouraging solar generation at workplaces.
Also, France has mandated all car parks have to add solar panels to them over some percentage of the footprint of land. I'd be curious if California would consider that and how the utilities can handle that level of power coming into the grid.
And just as an aside, fantastic set of interviews.
Wonderful video, and a lot of information! I would like to explain the tract of homes I grew up in Huntington Beach, with gas furnace, and 100 amp service to each home, and about 7 homes per transformer located in the back yard. So upgrading 1/2 of the homes to a 200 amp service would also require installing a lot of new transformers. It might even require new or upgraded amperage at the 4,100 volt level that serves all the transformers in each tract of homes.
Customers have installed air conditioners, and that will add a 30 amp circuit to each home with air conditioners. The EV charger "Could" be a 50 amp circuit, or a 24 amp, or 16 amp. 50 amps is 12 KW per hour, while 24 amp is only about 6 KW, and 16 amp 4 KW.
So do you "Have" to charge at 50 or 24 amps? Not really. I know people who charge their electric cars on 120 volt power, and do it just fine. 16 amps is barely going to change your electric usage. And it does not require charging during the peak hours.
Battery chargers could connect to the internet, and then ask for a charge speed number. It could be 30, 60, 100, 125, 150. So at 100, the chargers would know they can charge at 100% of their normal rating. If 30, then the grid is saying there might be a crisis, and charging at 30% is a better idea. If it is say 125, then maybe the local solar panels are producing more power than the grid is using this hour, and you can charge as fast as you like. At 150, then the grid is producing so much power, that the electric utility is saying we have so much renewable power online, and no customers wanting to buy 100% of it, then you can fill your car at a discounted rate until we are back to 125.
So rather than have a bunch of wind turbines and solar going offline because the power voltage is to high, or the frequency is going to fast, (called curtailment) they could give the EV chargers a signal that "Charge away, even at a discounted rate for the next 15 minutes (or more)."
One who has studied history, look at how quickly they went from steam power to diesel locomotives in the early 50's. Once they discovered how much less expensive the diesel electric locomotive was than the old coal systems, the change over happened much faster than anyone would have guessed in 1948. Afterall someone said "Why would they scrap a 10 year old coal fired locomotive that is worth $150,000 when it only has 150,000 miles on it?" They just thought it was impossible to scrap so many fairly new steam trains, that where barely broken in. And by 1960, you could barely find anyone running coal fired steam trains.
I think that steam trains changed in less than 10 years, and electric cars will change within 10 years as well. Not 100% of them, but I would say that 75% of all cars on the freeways in 2035 will be electric. With the Biden $5 gas and diesel, that can happen faster than anyone would have guessed back in 2020.
They are producing many vehicles with over 200 miles of range, and the ability to recharge at 200 KW per hour rate, or only about 15 - 30 minutes to charge enough to add 100 miles of range.
Big rig trucks can tow a trailer with a 100 HP motor on the trailer and a 200 KW battery pack. Yes they make these now, and they save 13% of the diesel fuel on trucks that tow a trailer with this sort of system on the trailer.
Big rig trucks can charge via overhead trolly lines that are located above the freeway lanes, especially over the hills going up the grapevine, and other long hills. And have the trolly lines run about 10 miles at a time, and then 30 miles without the overhead lines.
Another problem is battery charger input voltage. City Hall in Long Beach CA has 4,160 volt powered water chillers for the HVAC system. Changing a battery charger to 4,160 volts input will drastically reduce the amperage going into the battery charger for trucks and 350 KW and larger battery chargers. 1,000,000 watt charger at 4,160 volts = 139 amp load, or a 175 amp circuit breaker. While a 480 volt system would be 1,200 amps!
Then there is the "Solar Solution". Lets take Huntington Beach again. Say that there is a 500 house tract of homes with a 100 amp service in each home, but only a base load of about 2 KW per hour, or 1,000 KW per tract of homes. If they instal la 5 KW solar system in each home, then the power will be reduced to zero to that tract of homes, but that will not happen. Lets say they install about 4 KW - 5 KW to about 25% of the homes. Now during the daylight hours, the tract of homes with solar will be reduced to almost down to 0 KW for the peak daylight hours. Then back up to 1,000 KW during the 4 pm - 9 pm time, and then slightly lower overnight.
The EV's can be charged overnight at home, and use a reasonable amount of power. Between 11 pm and 6 am, that is 7 hours, and at 6 KW that is 42 KW of power. So that is plenty for most trucks to go 85 miles a day. Cars can go much farther on 42 KW of power, using about 3 miles per KW. And most people do not drive over 65 miles a day, X 20 days a month, that total is 1,300 miles a month!
The problem with demand charges is a huge problem. They need to find a way to reduce those demand charges.
Good information. Never thought EV’s could be the solution to any grid problems. Well done.
But won't that degrade the vehicle's battery faster? Our Bolt EUV doesn't have the ability to share electricity.
@@lizburgess4398Sorry, only Tesla & BYD, so far, have durable & reliable battery technologies & strategies. Sorry you bought the others’ koolaide. My SIL did the same, without first consulting her automotive trained & experienced BIL, so ended up canning her Bolt (I told her it was the worst EV choice, of all) & got a Tesla & is very pleased. Let’s learn from our mistakes & not merely regret them!
@@lizburgess4398 Current EV’s may not be able to upload to the grid but as technology improves it likely will not be an issue. We’re just at the beginning of the EV revolution.
@@lizburgess4398
I don't think battery degradation is a concern, since power transfer would be at a very slow rate, and would shut off long before the EV battery gets to a very low level.
I think the bigger issue, though, will be cost of equipment. Will people buy a bidirectional home charger if it costs $800 more than a charger which can only transfer power from grid to car, and not the other way around? Similarly, if supporting vehicle to grid adds $500 worth of hardware to the inside of the vehicle, would the consumer be willing to pay that?
Unless the actual costs of such equipment is much less than I'm imagining, or if the monetary incentives of having it are larger than I'm imagining, you simply won't have enough V2G adoption to be able to help the grid much.
And then, of course, there's the problem that if you want EVs to absorb excess solar energy during the day, most of them won't even be parked at home, but at workplaces.
Hey Tom, don’t take this the wrong way. I follow and watch almost everything you produce and enjoy. I am a fan but…maybe wear a non-black shirt….you look like a floating head with the background. LOL.
Good feedback
I think what a lot of naysayers forget about or ignore is the fact that the EV transition will happen gradually. Most places banning ICE vehicles by 2035 only applies to new vehicles not used. Cars have a rather long lifespan if kept in good repair. One can easily get 15-20 years of service out of a modern car - and of course we have classics which are much, much older. Keeping that in mind, the transition will likely take 20-30 years. While we can't ignore the power needs of the future, we should have plenty of time to ramp up.
All great information!
I am pretty up on this but I just love your videos Tom! I really like the interviews you did here. I think it is kind of a soft ban in CA. You can still register new ICE vehicles purchased out of state.
I think that by the year 2035, they may not allow the registration of any ICE vehicle built after MY 2035. So my guess is that Ford and GM might build a lot of vehicles well into 2035 and call them 2034 models? Then they can be sold out of state and used as replacements for the older cars and trucks.
On the other hand, with $5 gas and $6 diesel, I think that electric car acceptance is going to be much higher in California than other nearby states. I happen to love my plug in hybrid C-Max that gets 40 MPG with it's 4 cylinder engine and 18 miles with it's 7.5 KW battery that costs only $0.75 to fill in Portland Oregon at our very low utility rates. And I am seeing a lot of electric cars right now. Some have 150+ mile range too. Actually most have 150+ mile range.
@@Kangenpower7 The no registrations would be a change from the current policy. So who knows.
I think the goal will be easily achievable outside of the pickup truck market. Ford and GM are moving to electric pretty fast. It will be the Japanese companies that may still be laggards.
EV owners mostly charge when the electricity is cheap. So why worry about charging during peak hours? That will not become a problem, when it is so effectively managed by electricity price.
Another thing I'd like to know is what will the utility authorities do to ensure that their stations are up and reliable? If they're being used by apt dwellers and such, then there will be used by more people, more often, and more carelessly than current DC fast charging. If these stations are as unreliable as EA stations are or more, then this is another iceberg waiting to happen.
How do you convince every EV owner to sign up to share their battery, seems the incentive would need to be really high. Current controls the utility tries to use today to control your power, no AC in the summer when demand is high I would not sign up for as the incentive is not high enough. I think it will vary per state, in Utah electric is cheap.
This is a really great video that puts into light what is really going on and the items that are needed to make the transition to cleaner , public transportation available. The biggest thing I am not seeing it the existence of V2G or even V2H EV's. Even in much of the conversation on 2023-2025 EV's manufacturers are talking about, nearly none if any are talking about that. Ford and Hyundai are the only ones are those are still very limited.
I don't really see it as profitable to have a VTG system for a car with a 65 KW battery. While a bus with a 265 KW battery is another story, and worth spending $4,000 on a charger / inverter system that can be connected to 4 bus at once, and allowed to charge them all together and draw out the power when the grid needs it during the summer, when these busses are parked for weeks at a time! 100 bus fleet using 25 of these $4,000 inverter/ chargers can provide about 20 MW of power to the grid every day. Still that is a in-significant amount of power to California where the grid load is about 20,000 MW at any given hour of the day and night, with more on hot days and a little less at night. Still the solar systems are producing 14,000 MW of power all day long, and this tapers off a lot around 4 pm. So that is why 20 MW is very small amount of power.
Some of the diesel peaker power plants use something like a very large diesel locomotive engine and can produce 8 - 16 MW of power for each engine. The turbine systems can be 4 MW to 25 MW each, and they normally have a collection of a dozen or more in one location, so that one crew can look over them when they are turned on. So not manned until they predict they will be needed, and then manned from noon to 9 pm on a few days each month. Both of these systems can be powered by diesel or natural gas, depending on the engine type.
Now that Tesla has Mega Packs of batteries, they can put out 500 MW of power for 4-8 hours. But they also need to get refilled with about 20% more power than what is recovered within about 24 hours.
Thank you for doing this! If you have any pull for a new spot- the desert up 15 to Rochester would be wonderful! It takes an extra 2 hours to drive a loop out to PA to reach Bath NY is not great. This is made worse by the fact the station at Bath NY has no bathrooms and the area eateries are often closed. Thank you again!
Excellent video
Great Video Tom! Upvoted!!
Another great video with info I was interested in. With the rise of V2G (vehicle to grid) I wonder if any of the current chargers on your wall could handle that?
Great show! Bottom-line: EV's are a solution to grid problems.
No they aren’t. You are assuming people will drain their ev batteries to help support the grid en masse. But once something happens where the car is needed and the battery is very low, now this person will stop or greatly reduce draining their batteries. Also this will cause more battery degradation, so it will cost people more for the cost of the ev and added inconvenience due to reduced range. Also, this doesn’t solve all the potential issues. This really only helps to some degree when it comes to getting enough power generation at a given time. But what happens if most people decide to charge all at once and it exceeds what the grid can support? Does charging speed drop to a crawl? Does the grid crash?
It seems that NY has a better plan than CA. I haven’t heard anything about any CA power providers installing DC fast chargers. And if they did, the price per kWh would be so high that it would not make sense to charge there.
I have used SMUDs DC fast chargers at train station and airport. They are currently lower than the price at EA.
Nice!
I’ve been in the north Texas area since 1982 and have seen constant building going on. They have to be adding thousands of new AC units every single day. During that time not a single person ever asked if all that would “break the grid”. To single out just one new thing to panic about seems like someone with an agenda started that crap.
Could it be big oil? Stodgy fossil fuel automakers?
I am amazed that nobody who is talking about v to g has thought about battery warranty as I asked Tesla this question a couple of years ago and they said that as long as they warranty the battery they wont be doing it, which makes sense
Great informative video! Kudos to you!
Thank you Tom! I'm an Apt. dweller in NYC and you and the panels answered most of the questions I have for EV charging in urban areas. I'd be first in line to buy an EV if we had convenient charging around where we live. I have thought and thought about transitioning to an EV for the last 4 years or so and still don't have the courage to switch because of charging issues I'll be facing. I really hope NY, CA and rest of the country will follow up on what they're promising. I really enjoy your contents and want to thank you from bottom of my heart. Keep up the good work!!
I rent a Chicago apartment and also have nowhere to install a home charger. 2 years ago I decided to buy an EV. Here's what convinced me that it was viable.
US national average annual miles is 13k. That works out to 36 mi per day. A 240V 30A L2 EVSE can deliver 6 kW. To replenish 36 mi would need under 1.5 h. That's per day. I found public L2 plugs around where I run errands, places I spend time, etc. Charging opportunistically, 30 min here, 10 min there, I can reasonably achieve that 1.5 h.
Even better, there's a garage a 5 min walk from my office with 3 L2 plugs. In the 9 hours I work, I can charge the battery to full. If all 3 plugs are in use, there are 120V 15A sockets all over. In 9 hours, these can replenish 45 real miles (based on my 270 Wh/mi lifetime usage). My round trip is only 24 mi. So every time I go to the office, whether I charge on L2 or L1, I leave with a net mileage gain.
In a city as populous as NYC, I would imagine similar or better L2 availability.
As for cost, yes public charging costs more than my home electric, but I'm still saving vs gas. Each time I charged, I looked up nearby gas prices and based on my previous gas car's 27 mpg, I was saving half before gas prices went insane. Now I'm saving 62%.
So many people are pushing for more DCFC installs, but I think that's solving the wrong problem. The cost of one DCFC can easily fund many more L2. Maintenance costs are lower too. Put them everywhere people park: curbside, retail spaces, garages. This will address the most common use case and help.
Sure there are long distance drivers (I put 34k miles on my car in under 2 years road tripping cross country), but these are outliers. The more common use case is in town local driving. Addressing the common use case with ubiquitous L2 and educating people on opportunistic charging will help uptake.
@@dssyenon I'm so glad that things are working out for you. Where I live, Queens, NY unfortunately does not have infrastructures you have in Chicago. No L1 or L2 chargers around me and nearest 72kw Tesla charger is in a mall 15 mins away and you have to pay for parking.
My commute is 35 miles oneway and there are some L2 charging stations about a mile away. I thought about getting a scooter to travel bet the charger and work if I bought an EV. I soooo want to drive an EV but every time I think about it it's like hitting a concrete wall with inconveniences and impracticality. And this is only the charging part. There are EV services, reliability and unknowns to worry about. Would you buy an EV again if you had to do it again with same circumstances? Thank you for your detailed input, it helped me a lot.
It's very disappointing to learn of L2 scarcity in Queens. I've also written to my local government (mayor and alderman level) asking what they are doing to help the move to EVs, with a similar explanation that more L2s are what we need in the near term.
Montreal figured out curbside charging. When I visited last year, within a 5 min walk of my apartment there were 6 plugs. Cities I visited in Indiana have similar plans to build out L2 locally. I think more cities should follow this strategy but they won't know about it unless we tell them and ask for it.
Duke energy here in Fl does not have TOD rates but gives me a $10 rebate monthly for charging late at night. Last month I spent $13 charging at home at .13 per kwh. Duke rebated me $10 so it cost me $3 for energy to drive my Bolt last month.
Tom, I enjoyed both your interviews good information for the EV Community. And the new people getting into E v's.
Nice job Tom! Imagine that, talking to experts!
Engineering Explained covered this a while back and he didn't think the grid will be an issue.
Excellent interviews
Impressed by New Yorks progress
My problem isn't the fear that the grid will go down, rather, it's the fact that it simply isn't economically viable to go EV in the places where EVs make the most sense.
I live about 40 miles west of Boston, MA. My current electric bill is just shy of $0.34 per kWh. The reason is that while several coal and nuclear plants have been shut down, nothing new has been built. Bringing natural gas into the area is a problem due to pipeline capacity and a recent attempt to increase capacity failed because most areas that would be impacted by the pipeline would not get any access to the gas. I don't blame people forbidding impacts on their community if there is no benefit to them.
As a result, we are continuing to buy more and more of our power from Canada. The costs to buy, transmit, and deliver are nuts.
I'd love to simply put solar on the house to offset my use. The problem there is that there is a 10 kWh limit on solar. I'm at the max and we can't even cover our household use anymore due to the difference between the credit and cost difference in the so called "Net Metering". So, adding an EV would result in us having to pay going rates for power.
This is not just here. Nearly every major urban area faces power price problems.
When the gas pump is hovering around $3 and your electric bill is now at $0.34, you simply can't find a way to make the EV a more economical option. I've been tracking every ounce of fuel I've used since 2006. In April of 2006, pump gas was $2.589. Roughly that same period, my electric cost was $0.14 per kWh. Yes, gas prices have bounced around some with highs as close as $5 per gallon, but they don't last historically. While there are some seasonal blips in power, the trend is continually upward.
My current vehicle is a 2009. My vehicle prior to that was a 1996. The 1989 before that was totaled by a drunk driver. Before that, I was driving junk as a student. I'm in the process of handing over the 2009 to my 17yo son and buying my next vehicle. In all honesty, I'm probably looking at keeping it until nearly 2040.
I have a MaxPack reservation on a Rivian that I've had maybe 3 years now, but given the economics (and the fact that Rivian keeps deleting features on me), I'm not sure if it makes sense.
The Aptera is a whole lot of win, but with just 2 seats and very limited capacity, I'm not sure how that would work. Fuel wise, it's a win hands down. And even here in New England, that would never rust out. But damn. I downsized a lot when I got the 2009 Volvo C30 (from a V0 Ram 2500) but it worked because I could still seat 4 and tow a 1000 lb trailer. a 2 seater with no towing and a 500 lb payload??? I don't know.
Really enjoyed watching this video and as someone who works in the industry in Southern California I know about EV adoption and how we need to prepare our grid. Exciting times to come in the next few years.
I think we can be ready, but should probably limit the home chargers to about 24 amps per charger, or maximum of 32 amps per household. And hopefully get timers or something that talks to the utility and have it give out a point system where a signal of 30 means to run the chargers at 30% of maximum output, (brownout is about to happen) while a signal above 100 would mean that there is plenty of power during this hour of the day, go ahead and charge at your max capacity. A signal of 125 or 150 might mean that there is so much solar and wind power that many are in curtailment due to higher than normal voltage, please charge now! Even giving a discount for power consumed during a time when the score is above 200.
People often say "Well electric cars are going to use electricity" and seem to forget that oil refineries use electricity too, and will reduce that amount of electricity when they are not pumping oil, pumping crude oil from all over southern California to the refinery in Torrence, pumping gasoline from Shell in Long Beach to Las Vegas and Phoenix.
Something I've taken note of is how the trends towards the predominance of online shopping is putting a strain on the financial viability of many shopping malls, mainly in the USA but also to a far lesser extent, elsewhere. Since many EV drivers are already aware of the convenience of the electron sip & charge model - i.e. get in quick, take just what you need, get out quick - I think that a great many shopping malls/centre owners would stand to benefit greatly by offering/upgrading their outdoor carparking areas to solar canopied charging stations (including) the circulatory access parts of their parking facilities. One of the prime benefits to society at large is that this helps to answer the questions surrounding multi-occupancy dwelling housing charging issues.
Shopping centres (already) have HVDC power supply lines & it should be much easier to upgrade these rather than try to bring large amounts of extra supply capacity as part of retrofit measures to existing multi-occupancy dwellings.
Just as we see (@ least here in the UK) BOGOFF - By One, Get One Free, we could start to see SCS - Stop, Charge, Shop!, as a commonly seen patronage enticement. The charging doesn't necessarily have to be free. It could be a charged at cost or for profit business model. And we shouldn't dismiss the marketing appeal of the socially aware eco credentials of any given business to potential customers; this has already happening for quite some time across a wide range of products & services & customers have started to vote with their wallets, therefore this has real world impacts to both climate & bottom lines.
This is why I think coffee shops, slower paced full service restaurants and green spaces and parks or recreation businesses like gyms are the best place to build charging amenities. People hang out at these places for longer periods of time and L2 chargers are much much much cheaper than DC fast charging. 2 hrs of L2 charging gets the average driver 4 days worth of range. The integration here is a no brainer
@@tonydeveyra4611 They are excellent places to lurk whilst your charging. But so are shopping centres and supermarkets because the weekly shopping, particularly grocery shopping, often seems to take about 45-60 minutes at a minimum & sometimes even longer depending on the timing of your visit & they [don't] necessarily need to be anything other than level 2 chargers since the average commuting & or school runs don't normally equate to high mileage anyway. The more 'Sip & Go' charging stations about should be adequate to meet most people's needs if they plug in at every opportunity, only charging to 80% or more for journeys of longer duration.
Pink Elephants, I have seen a couple of free charging stations show up next to Kholls in the Portland Oregon area, that are fed with 16 amps at 240 volts, while you are in there shopping. At $0.10 per KW, it can only cost $1 per hour to supply 9.6 KW to a customer. They are also showing up at Hotels that want to attract EV owners, and I think they will find it a requirement more in the next 5 years. I can see the front desk to have a video camera on the charging station, because many will call "Do you have a open space?" and don't want to send out the front desk person to check it in person.
Every mall that I have been to and serviced the HVAC system, they run on 480 volts three phase power. So it is possible to install a 30 amp service to power a 20 KW charger to the customers. Anything much larger, and they would need to expand the 480 volt service to the mall. Many times the electric company would like to install these chargers in the center of the parking lot, not next to the existing power supply (due to underground power lines they do not want to install anything next to the underground wiring that might be within 15 feet of the place on the blueprints that they are supposed to be installed in).
If the utility is installing a dozen of the 200 KW EV chargers, that is 2,400,000 watts, or enough that a larger power system than that serving the mall is being installed at the charger station. Many of the larger EV charger stations that I see on You Tube video's such as the one in Baker CA, along I 15 between LA and Las Vegas, they have several of the 350 KW and 200 KW EV chargers, enough to require a 10 MW power system or much more!
I used to work for Weiser Lock, and they had 3 each 2,500,000 watt 480 volt transformers feeding the 750,000 square foot building. They fed that into 3 each 4,000 amp 480 volt bussbars, to the various parts of the manufacturing plant. My guess is this system is much larger than the power supply to Westminster Mall, a few miles away. The 10 MW transformer was fed 67,000 volts and stepped down to 12,000 volts to the smaller transformers that fed the 480 volts into the building. The 10 MW transformer was about 10 feet cube.
@@Kangenpower7 That's very interesting. I agree it will probably become a prerequisite for doing business, either due to customer demand or due to either national, regional or local legislation depending on where in the world the jurisdiction is.
I may not have made it clear enough but I was thinking in terms of (every) parking space having its own charging stall and this is why I, who knows nothing about power supply line demands, thought it may be necessary to have HVDC power supply. You seem to be knowledgeable, I'm just a know nothing dummy.
Great work as always, Tom
One thing I never here anyone discuss is that if a bunch of chargers are installed at low income apartments, there are probably going to be a lot of criminals cutting off the charge chords and anything else they can get there hands on to sell the copper for a few bucks. Sad but true.
It's already happening. Stopped by a place where I charge on my way home and all the cords of the level 2 stations were cut off. There is a lot of homeless in that area not to mention the cable thieves. I am surprised it didn't happen sooner.
In the UK they make EV chargers that are just outlets. The user is expected to bring their own cable and adapter to plug in.
@@tonydeveyra4611
But, making the user bring their own cable doesn't eliminate the theft problem. It just shifts the loss from the owner of the charger onto the user (although it at least mitigates it somewhat, since there's only a cable to steal at a time when someone is actually charging).
The ultimate solution to cable theft could eventually become wireless charging. Eliminate the cable to steal altogether.
Great to have the facts on this. Some media people thrive on fear. $$$$$$
Great video! Here's a few key points that I wish had been added.
1. Much of the DCFC usage would go away if the public were better educated about using slower charging from where the vehicle is parked overnight. This will alleviate the need for so much DCFC infrastructure in our bedroom communities.
2. We need to mandate efficiency standards for EV manufacturers. And let's push for high numbers like 4 miles per kWh minimum light duty vehicles AND SUVs. Having a bunch of EVs with lousy efficient isn't doing us much good. It only lines the pockets of EV manufacturers.
3. Let's get behind companies like Aptera that are building solar EVs. These types of vehicles can add up to 40 miles of range per day just by being in the sun. This will meet the vast majority of our daily driving needs, fully eliminating much of our carbon footprint associated with our typical daily driving patterns. Aptera's SEV is also anticipated to be highly efficient, getting a little more than 10 miles per kWh. That's equivalent to getting 350 mpg! It'll be so efficient that plugging in the vehicle to a simple 110 outlet overnight will add around 150 miles of range! Starting at around $26,000, this is a reasonably affordable vehicle. However, the government needs to ensure incentives to purchase vehicles like Aptera are provided because it can certainly be a major part of the solution to our zero carbon footprint goals.
The SMUD rep is right, we need “right to charge” laws, like what Norway has, to address the apartment/condo issue. They require apartments/condos to have chargers. You should look into the NERC reports of the state of the grid. The next few years are going to be challenging as we go through this transition. As for demand charges, you need cheaper battery storage (and cheaper batteries are rapidly coming) on-site at the charger to buffer the grid. You can charge the cars off of the storage and “trickle” charge the storage. I’ve spent decades in grid operations, and while there will likely be stumbling blocks along the way, we’ll get there.
Tucker Carlson? Oh yeah, that's a shocker. Did you check out Alex Jones's opinion? Come on man, don't legitimize the comments of people who are, shall we say, have no clue about what they are talking about. It's silly. Interesting guest. Cheers!
My utility company in Oregon asks all customers to scale back on energy usage for ALL reasons during peak times. They also offer rebates if you use less than your typical amount during peak times….U.S. citizens expect everything for themselves at all times. We can’t both pollute the environment, not invest in sustainable infrastructure, and then complain when we have to scale back due to a lack of infrastructure.
One follow-up I would have asked the second interviewee is for him to define for us the difference between Energy and Power. The difference between them is time but he made it sound like they are fundamentally different units of measure. It also wasn’t clear where he was getting his numbers of 25%, 33%, 1 million, and 9 million from.
Eventually, solar will be so dominant as an energy source that, on most days, there will be a big surge in available energy around mid-day. Charging most EVs then will take up that excess energy. This will actually help the Grid, helping to alleviate the infamous "duck curve." Most electricity will not even have to travel far to reach its destination-in time or in space.
Thank you for putting this out there. We need more of this content instead of the click bait fear mongering nonsense. I am so tired of people parroting talking points they know nothing about.
Lits like they think there will be no advances at all in the future to support this, which is ridiculous. Look at solid state batteries, NASAs space station current cooling tech, and I can't believe this is never brought up, but the recent (and very rapid) advances in nuclear fusion.
Vehicle to grid isn’t really “the answer”. It will help some but the real solutions will be large storage systems Tesla Mega Packs
And home Solar with home storage is what will meet the energy demand of the early 2030’s and beyond.
Great video. It really dispels many of the disaster myths about adopting EVs. Thank you for putting this together.
Doug, while I do support EV's, and own a Ford C-Max hybrid with a 7.5 KW battery, I also think that the utility companies are not going to be ready for the electric cars that will appear in places where there is $5 gas and $6 diesel much sooner than they guess it will happen. So by the year 2028, I think that 50% of all California cars could be electric. Still I think they will be fine, as California can import lots of power from nearby states.
Hopefully California will install enough wind power by the year 2030 to power all of these electric vehicles by then. They did auction a few offshore wind parks in Morrow Bay and off the coast of Northern California. But that power is not scheduled to be installed until 2024 at the soonest and 2030 to be 1/2 way completed. It is 4,000 MW of offshore wind power that they are planning to install.
The price of electricity should be addressed. In California it’s just to expensive. Thanks for the video 😊
I was very impressed with John Markowitz. NY gets EVs and is working to make charging better and driving EVs easier. Thanks for the interviews!
what a great video I was actually taking notes when your guests were bringing up important points to know. Thanks again for this content
Thanks for this video. Let's stop yelling into the void and actually talk to the people who are on the ground making this transition happen.
New homes in CA will come standard with full solar roofs, power walls and roof top water heaters. Add in geothermal and you are nearly off the grid.
Historically, no state has done worse than California managing their power. I think the Political message is overriding the engineering.
Texas says: hold my beer.
Agreed!!! Parts of Oahu’s grid went down hard on 24 Dec - not enough renewable on a cloudy day - to many people home asking for electricity - am I am a person with solar and battery and all EV vehicles.
Good interview. Thanks, Tom!
You are asked to not wash and dry your clothes or reduce ac usage during peak usage. I charge from midnight to 3 pm due to cheaper rate.
Great video Tom. It was good to hear from actual experts.
How will the grid handle semi trucks? It seems unfeasible to need a small sub station to fast charge one truck. They hold 1MW to go 500 miles. They need to charge in 15 minutes due to federal regulations on hours of service.
This problem is further aggravated by team drivers traversing our country in 55 hours to meet customer demands.
Coffee shop chains like Starbucks etc, which hang their hats on being a "third place" hang out spots will be critical to providing charging for apartment dwellers that dont have at home charging. 240v L2 restore 40ish miles of range per hour. This means that 2 hours plugged in while drinking coffee and using the internet would get the typical American driver somewhere between 2 and 4 days of typical driving range. I think the first chain to build out this L2 infrastructure will have a unique way to pull in customers.
Tesla is going to assert itself and dominate this little subsection of EV charging. They have all the pieces:
One, they just rolled out a L2 J772 charger that is $200 cheaper than the competitions, and it can be used with commercial charging.
Two, teslas app provides the most frictionless and enjoyable charging experience. Moreover with millions of drivers using their cars, a restaurant or similar retail establishment getting a listing on the map and inside the car's built-in map app can be a tremendously valuable bit of advertising, perhaps worth tens of thousands of dollars a year.
Third, the sophistication and frictionlessness teslas in app payment system will give the businesses hosting the tesla L2 chargers more options for monetizing and harvesting the gains created by this amenity. For example, I think there are many examples where it will be more profitable for a business to offer free charging as a hook to get people to spend more on their primary offerings. Ie: get 2 hours of free charging if you spend >$60 at our restaurant. And unlike parking garages which offer parking ticket validation, there is literally no work on the end of the customers. No tickets to punch, no ticket machine to insert or cards to swipe. It would all happen behind the scenes in the app when the car plugs in. And, again, the business hosting the app can advertise free charging when you buy a burger or whatever to millions of EV drivers--and more relevantly, however many dozens are driving aroundb in a 5mi tadius--through the tesla app.
I think daytime charging with solar at places where cars are parked for a long period of time will be the solution for many people, including apartment dwellers. For most people, cars are used for commuting to work, so workplace charging can solve many issues and it may soon become the "benefit" that employees look for when the EV revolution happens.
David Lutz: Another example of why demand pricing makes sense. During super high energy days where there is actually a surplus of power due to wind and/or solar, it would be INSANE not to have all BEV's waiting for a charge to charge, all home battery backup systems, commercial power backup systems, etc. charging all they can. It might even make sense to make the power free or even PAY people to take a charge if the surplus is sufficient to make dumping the extra power a problem.
And having milions of BEV's set up and plugged in, to be able to offer some power or take some power as the demand dictates is the PERFECT way to intelligently help stabilize the grid, re making millions of BEV's sitting at chargers part of a huge VPP for many power districts.
Great topic Tom and glad to hear from the folks doing the work! This one will get shared far and wide, thanks!
Eric offered to speak in more detail about their pilot rate to offer demand charge relief. I'm disappointed you didn't get into it. Would be nice to get more numbers and details of that in the future
Pleased to hear issue of people living in condominiums & apartments. Here at a 52 unit Florida condo, I installed a smart EV charger that directly bills registered users for energy used. We establish 3- 8hr periods of the day to cue in vehicles. Since users don’t charge every day, one unit easily serves over 5 EVs. When capacity is reached, we will add a 2nd load balanced charger. Even at an increased adoption rate, this solution should satisfy our needs for 5-7 years or more.
One series of questions I would like to see you add is along the lines of....how many vehicles do your family have? Do you have EVs? What do you currently drive?
What an excellent presentation.
One difference in Ontario, Canada is we outsourced a lot of manufacturing. The grid was built to support those manufacturers resulting in some breathing room before expanding power generation is required.
Ontario definitely has some black holes up in cottage/vacation country in terms of charging infrastructure ... we'll get there though. Rather than charging infrastructure, it still requires price parity before EV sales take off. Mandates won't help when anyone can just buy an used ICE vehicle. Cheers, Steve
Grids are always overbuilt. Not just for room to grow, but in of worst case scenarios happening like it there is a huge random power usage soak for some random reason. In terms of evs, of all evs are charged throughout the day equally every hour, then grids will likely be fine. But if 100% decide to charge over a few hours, will the grid still survive? I don’t think so. Many things are built to account for the worst case scenario.
The answer is No, electric companies have been anticapting this for 10 years.
Awesome video Tom, its so nice to learn from experienced experts in there fields that share the facts and not wild rumours and fiction. If two of largest populated states in the US, have a plan then the rest of the country should be just fine. Very interesting point at the end, the biggest threat to power disruptions is not EV adoption it is extreme weather....
Here were I live in Vancouver BC Canada, EV adoption is the highest in the country at approx. 20%. The government here is pushing hard to ban ice engines were EV sales must reach 10% of new light-duty vehicle sales by 2025, 30% by 2030 and 100% by 2035.
Excellent interviews, This factual information needs to get out to the general low informed public
Excellent video Tom, one of your more informative.
Tom. I'm Going to Share this with out local Governments.