Is a larger scope really better? A prs scope on an air rifle?
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 12 ก.ย. 2024
- Do i really need such high magnification?
Here im trying to decide which scope to fit onto the incoming Air Arms xti50.
since using the much higher magnification of the discovery prs scope ive been curious wether im actually more accurate with a smaller scope with lower magnification,such as my little optisan cp or if bigger really is better.
the scopes im choosing between are the
discovery ed prs 5-25x56
sightron stac 2-10x32
optisan cp hft scope 3-12x32
the results are surprising, however my previous experience kinda suggested the outcome.
the air rifle on test is an Anschutz 9015 and will shrtly be replaced with the new flagship field target rifle from air arms, the Xti50.
Omg... I think you need a wakeup call. The shooting you do I do with my fixed 4 scope!!!
Wow that's some amazing shooting, pop up a few videos for us to see how to do it properly...
You should do some competitions you'd potentially smash it, put some vids up would love to watch that
No you don’t
Why are you lying?
As you get older the magnification gets higher 😩🤣
Strange, the older I get, the less magnification I need. 😉
True howe.from a howe..😂
True howe..from a howe😂
For hunting 100 yard and less lighter weight is number 1 for my old baby arms.
Quality glass can be found in many smaller scopes
I’ve used my mtc 10x42 for years for pest control around our farm and permissions…just bought a 14x50 immersive prismatic scope!!! What a game changer!!! So far for my needs I wouldn’t go back to a conventional scope…amazing feild of view and easy to get perfect eye relief without countless mounts.
i have 5x30 immersive and plink out to 60 yards using holdover easily. let others have a go with my rifles they are always amazed
I have an MTC 10x44, just the best scope I've ever had, but I've had an eye on a prismatic for pesting for quite a while. It's like you are there with the target and no parallax problems at all.
@@davidpaylor5666 well with parallax that’s not entirely true on the prismatics…I use more parallax on this 14x50 immersive than I ever did on a normal scope
Hi , it didn’t surprise that your groups were better with the lower mag , most snipers never use anything over 10 mag and only use the higher mags to identify the target .
I think the general rule of thumb is x1 for every 100 yards so thats x 10 for 1000 !
There is a good channel called Gun blue on you tube which tackles the same question 👍
Great video 👍
Personally, I wouldn’t argue either way.
All I would suggest is, if possible, try both and shoot what you prefer.
I use a Hawke Fastmount 4-16 illuminated on ~x12 for pest control (it’s perfectly capable) and a Sidewinder 8-32 on x20+ for my target shooting.
Resolution is recognised as far more important than magnification- would like to see you test a lower mag Leica, Zeiss, Schmidt and Bender, Swarovski Leupold etc against a higher mag Chinese brand.
Flare control aberration and light transmission on the top end brands, tends to more than make up for the higher magnification of the cheaper scopes.
Hi mate I'm very familiar with the high end stuff in the smaller sizes.ive had numerous leupold mk4s and vx3rs in custom shop configurations mostly 40mm and 32 objective, a few nightforce nxs compacts in 32mm and I'm regularly playing with the baby march and similar fancy gear.
Along with the likes of the march high masters in ft spec
This discovery is an Interesting thing. Optically it's fantastic,especially given its price point. There's not a lot(new) sub a grand that will match it Optically.since they have started selling direct to customer it's meant a massive drop in pricing.
Hft is a funny game, the nightforces are amazing but far too clear through the range of targets8-45 yards. You can't adjust the scope on a course so having something with a little blur either end of the depth of field to help rangefinding is actually better for most,than a scope that is Optically superior and clear all the way through. The discovery is way to big to be a good contender for hft mind.
Whilst the larger scopes are more cumbersome the massive internal adjustment range is a real bonus when you need a load of elevation.
It's all good fun though 😉
I have a Hawke Sidewinder 4-16x50 on one air rifle and an MTC Viper Pro 10x44 on the other. I'm thinking of replacing the Sidewinder with an Optisan CP 3-12x32 and absolutely love the 10x44, it's super-quick onto the target, ranges beautifully and 10 mag is all you need. Big scopes with huge bells and massive magnification bring nothing extra for close work. Fair enough if you're shooting at 500m in low light or something but not at sub-100m.
In vietnam all the snipers had for quite some time was just 10x scopes. But you didn't need to put a bullet only in a tiny spot to affect your target.
True and today modern snipers use 56mm/60mm with higher power purely for target identification to avoid any civilian casualties. But lower power is better for fast target acquisition.
How utterly irrelevant when it comes to hft or field target. Focus at high mag drop the mag for the shot shooting people is sooo very government
Theres this series of videos made by a guy named Rex Tibor, I think, in which you can see that, due to the quality of the glass, some entry level scopes are better made to observe at a specific magnification, even though they are able to go much further than that. This may be something to factor in.
You need to cover your crack up mate!😂
Lol!!! Yeah kinda missed that at edit..
😆
What a great watch that was , did something very similar the other week and found groups were better on 10 mag , but when I pushed out to 60 and 70 the higher mag came in to its own ,
I need to do some more testing with this, it's likely me being a numpty subconsciously. I'm fairly sure it's something to do with it being ffp and the ret enlarging with the magnification. Yet at 25x at 25yd I can sling them through the same hole (without the annoying odd flyer)
@@tillysgunstocks I find that with one of my ffp scopes. Because the ret isn’t as fine as the other (both FFP) I’m less accurate at higher mag, cos the dot in centre is bigger (at least that’s what I think)…..
Great video, as usual.
Reassuring for my 4x16x44 Airmax SF30
That's what im going to get
as an old git all my rifles are over scoped!
I found it helps with accuracy when you can SEE the target! :)
great video and in reality It's all about what works best for you!
best wishes
have a great day!
I had the pleasure of shooting a XTI-50 on Sunday, felt very well balanced to me. I’ve started using a Vortex Viper PST Gen II 2-10x32 for HFT, love the clarity.
The xti is a lovely bit of kit. It's a nice upgrade over the 9015. I can't wait to get it and get it onto the channel.
I've had both the mk1 and 2 vortex viper pst in the 32mm. I actually preffered the mk1 over the mk2. The finer ret suited my eye a little better. It worked great on my carbine ev2s I had at the time
As always depends on use .. shooting FT I use a Nikko Stirling Diamond 10-50x60 aka "the Big Niko".. use 50X to range but always shoot at 20X. This is pretty much what most FT shooters do. If I was ever to replace the scope as they are no longer made, the Falcon X50 would be my choice. Glad to see finger is on the mend
Ditto, Ditto for me! Seeing my pulse can actually be useful if I chill and shoot between beats.
Having previously used Dioptric Sights at 25y/50m rimfire, it was a considerable learning curve when I started using Scopes for Target Shooting, having previously used low mag hunting scopes on hunting rifles like the AA S400 Classic out to 30y. I started with a Rhino 6-24x52 at 25y/50m for rimfire target, and all the issues you bring up about pulse and trigger were there, and also fitted a bespoke barrel tuner for 50m to tighten groups at that range; but I've slowly modified my rifle grip and trigger control, and a year ago started calling my shots, this last Winter I won my 25y Division, having started 27th ranked overall, and finished 9th ranked.
24x at 50m is a little guess work with 1/4 MOA clicks, although I'm currently leading my Division towards the end of the Winter League, plus the rifle is a 1963 vintage Anschutz 1413, and requires 60 to 100 rounds through it these days to tighten the groups via leading the barrel. May have actually screwed up the 50m competition as I was on a cleaning OCD mission and forgot I had two Rounds to finish, and whilst Round 9 is mediocre, and Round 10 a bit better, I'm not sure whether that has screwed things.
However, this Summer I'm also doing 100y Target rimfire, and I've finally up-scoped to a Vector Optics 12-60x60 which has 1/8 MOA clicks, and will be shooting 20x at 25y, 40x at 50m, and 60x at 100y.
I imagine further modification of my grip and trigger control will be required, but you can never over-scope unless you're hunting, even my old Webley & Scott Mk3 under lever has a Hawke 3-9x40 on it, and I get 1" groups at 30y, which is about it's limit in accuracy, quite how long that scope will last with the spring recoil is anyone's guess.
The Rhino is now on my AA S510R for 25y Target, it's taken a while getting pellet selection right, and the previous Hawke 6-24x50 Scope really wasn't up to snuff, I'll prolly finish mid-table in my Division, and to be honest I didn't expect much this first time out at 25y Target Air, but the improvement has been from a dire 168/200 in Round 1 with entirely the wrong pellets, to 195/200 using Accupell in Round 10, I've since spent 3 weeks undertaking thorough pellet selection (lead and lead free) and will be using JSB Exacts 4.50mm which give 1/4" or less at 30y. However, the biggest challenge has been the Wind, which whilst it does affect 1073fps Rimfire, it certainly makes 12ft/lbs Air a lottery. I've spent more time looking for calm days on a weather app than I can ever remember, Air Rifle Target has been a big learning curve. I don't think the S510R will be my go to rifle for 25y Target, I'm looking at an Anchutz 9015 for this eventually, but also considering an AA MPR Precision for Bell Target/6y, and 10m.
Love the videos BTW.
I'm happy with my gun fit, but I could definitely do with making the bipod less likely to roll over. On camera I just can't get my heart rate below 90ish at absolute best which doesn't help. Camera off I can drop it to sub 70bpm easily.
I do also wonder if its the reduced field of view at the higher mag that stops me taking in more of the surroundings and compensating appropriately. Interesting though and definitely something to play around with.
That's some good shooting too mate 😉
@@tillysgunstocks You're not so bad yourself matey!!!
One thing I didn't mention using sub-sonic rimfire, you commented on watching the pellets enroute with a lower mag with better field of view, same happens with sub-sonics, rare spotting it at 50m, but definitely see them mortaring in at 100y, which again will mean that the wind will be a greater influence this Summer.
Also, all my shooting is benchrest, using a tripod with completely flat surface, and a wooden rail addition to the fore stock to rest the rifle without any control from the tripod itself, the rear in these competitions is held in your shoulder, you're not allowed any form of butt pad or mount to rest upon, the rifle has to be supported on your elbows and the position maintained with posture to avoid the rifle moving on the fore stock, being disabled with a bad back this means I only manage four to six cards in a session, with frequent breaks before my back problem causes my groups to open up and I'm really wasting ammo at that point onwards.
I started shooting 12 years ago because its the only sport where you really have to concentrate, relax, maintain posture, and a rhythm/process, all at the same time. I find myself listening to what is just background noise on the radio in the car journey to the range going through my head what I'm going to do and try and achieve when I get there, but am thoroughly knackered by the time I get home. Revelation moments were calling my shots where they will land in the bull (doesn't happen all the time but getting more frequent than not), and realising that the torque in the fat of my backside needs relieving by rocking forward and backwards when adjusting position, otherwise at trigger pull it affects POI when your body resumes it's Natural Point of Aim..
So, the key moments for me in the process were realising my positional faults, and remembering to flex my arse cheeks, ha.
Viewer depth of field is too much. Pull your trousers up.
Maybe gunstock builders are in the plumbers union. They would be kicked out for not showing butt cracks.
IMO your age/eye sight, power level/distance your using it are your main factors with magnification in your optics. I’m 56 and mostly use 10 and up for my shots from 25-150 yards with my PCPs and firearms.
I spoke to some experts and they told me that if I am exclusively focusing on marksmanship/target, shooting with my pellet rifle to a my maximum distance of 300 yards and maybe 400 yards if possible that I should exchange my scope for the first focal plane Discovery model which is Discovery optics LHD 3-12X42SFIR FFP. A minority of people told me that it’s a personal choice.
Well, to be honest the results were a bit of a surprise. I think if it was me I’d try one more scope, something in size in between the CP and the PRS. The Discovery just seem too big to me. Great video as always, cheers, Woody.
Hi mate, if I could find a decent 40mm objective with around the 5-25 mag I'd probably only need one scope for all my disciplines..
I've got to say though the discovery has some of the best glass I've seen in anything sub a grand. They have started to sell direct and cut out the middle men
No mention was made regarding the type of rifle a given scope application is for. Springer, piston or PCP. Some scopes can't survive the shock like springers create.
I’m hitting a 30mm bell target at 75yards on 8x with my untuned HW97kt .22. Using an optisan cp 3-12x32 scope I absolutely love the mh10 ret on them.
Interestingly i shoot tighter groups at 50m using diopter peep sight than i do with a 40x Bench rest scope.
I must subconsciously be making adjustment to accommodate the pulse movement. I dont actually have to think about my shots at the lower mags, abit like driving it just happens without thinking. Not sure but I'm going to do some further testing and see how it pans out..
@@tillysgunstocks i find 10x adequate for everything except bench rest. But for general targets and hunting its more than enough. Glass quality is most important imo.
@@tillysgunstocks I think you are correct there Tommy, since I stopped FT my magnification is greatly reduced.
5 Mag for me out to 50m +. Very rewarding.
Almost shooting like something isn't looking over my shoulder and nagging.
Natural.
Oooh er missus ! cheeky ! Shut that door ! Is that a gun in your pocket ?
is that one of your stocks ? great video
Sort of, it's a walther chassis I made work and then my woodwork. There's a couple of videos on the channel about it,with a few of my other builds😉
You definitely have to get used to high magnification scopes at relatively close distances. A have a 40x scope I use from time to time and it can take a while for my head to get around it. Yes, at high magnification you notice all the tiny wobbles, your body, your heart, the tiniest movements are very noticeable. You do get used to it, but it can take a while. The funny thing is all those tiny wobbles are there whatever scope you're using.
True but only at high magnification.
I'm 77, and I've got cataracts. I could do with an Astral scope on my guns.
Im 69 myself but love Shooting 😊
Interesting and funnily enough I was just doing the same test during a brief lull in the winds that are plaguing my Northumbrian hills (15cm drift @ 30m!)! While shooting I felt the higher (24x) mag was more accurate, but the lower mag was always tighter. Hmmm... And then, another coincidence, I splashed out on a new Optisan 10x32 fixed. I'll see where this goes. BTW, cracking sub-10mm group at 40.
This discovery is optically superior to the cp, which is really hard for me to say as I've used lots of the optisan stuff over the years and as a brand I really like them. But reality of it is,on an hft course the cp would be a far better option. Lighter better handling rifle too will help score more points.
I could probably do with something around say 5-25mag in a 40mm objective,that should give a good enough dof for hft and all the stuff filming... maybe.. don't know but its fun learning our foibles with this stuff..
@@tillysgunstocks Absolutely and thanks for questioning and investigating the accepted wisdom. For target work, weight high on the gun and reducing scope height above the barrel seem more important than ultimate light gathering. Head position too. The cp is going on a HW98 - a simple alternative to the FX Crown. When the wind lets up...
really interesting subject matter. I've been wondering what scope to fit to a Bullpup I'm planning on getting.
for bench i do use a high mag scope . tried it with the optisan but found it tricky
I think it's a subconscious over compensation for my jidders. Tbh though the minute the camera goes on I'm always shooting with a heart rate around 100bpm. Not ideal but it's more stressful than any comp I've ever shot
@@tillysgunstocks i fully get what your saying though . the slightest touch on high mag and it looks like you have knocked the scope 3 feet one way 🤣🤣🤣
@paul speller yeah it does, especially on the ffp setup everything gets larger together as the mag increases. It might just be that with the ret enlarging I'm aiming off a touch too much
Do you rate or had anything to do with Immersive scopes? I'm trying to get into Hft/Ft and one of the club experts has recommended them as it's a fixed magnification.
When will those JSB " shorts " become available ? They seem pretty damn good ..
Probably best to get them direct from Germany, this particular batch is known to be pretty decent. I've had plenty of batches of standard 8.44 exacts that better them at 55yds though.
I’m polish, in my country I can shoot on 1x mag and hit vodka bottle top from 7500 meters with 22 pellet, I’m best air rifle shooter in world , like betman
Sure, i think you've drunk too much vodka...
Thought the rules for HFT limited mag to 10x only?
There's no maximum mag, well some of the older classes shot down the south west used to specify 12x max. The big scope won't be used for hft as the dof is too short and it's just too cumbersome, but I couldn't crank the mag up on the optisan as high as I've been using on the channel here and for when I start running stuff out to 100yds.thats why I used the big scope and wound it back down 😉
SWEFTA has a max of 12x for there own HFT, which is more akin to other region's SFT.
SWEFTA like to do things different 😊
In standard rules, UKAHFT ect, there's no max magnification.
Shooting a 12 lb gun has to be a real challenge.
I use a Zeiss v4 4-16x44 on my HFT setup, use it on 9 mag for HFT/SFT. (Scope alone for the fully capped version weighs 580g)
When I've dabbled in 25m bench rest I found it easier on the full 16mag.
I think I'll always be looking for the perfect scope to suit the requirements of the filming on the channel and that is capable on the hft circuit. It would be great to stick with one scope, as swapping about always takes a little time to become re accustomed to each one.
The glass in the discovery is fantastic especially at its price point but the size doesn't suit the hft based stuff. And the cp is a little low mag for when we start pushing the ranges well out.
A higher mag in 40-42ish objective might well do it when wound back for the dof I want. Problem is,as you know, actually trying these things out before buying..
Tilly can u do a vid on gun care barbell cleaning and action when u have been shooting in the rain thanks Barrie
on a springer i would go for a heavy duty 4x32 scope with not many adjustments , a magnum springer kills scopes , a hatsan 135 .30 fac ,one of the baddest
Diana ZR mount is a must on those beasts.
2 x standing 10 x pest control from rest with low power guns ,up to 100 yards
which go pro are you usung for spotting please ?
What "English" I have I only learned in school, so please help me here. What is the verdict, please? Is a larger scope really better? Thank you for any and ALL replies.
Hi mate, for myself the higher magnification doesn't appear to offer any benefit. I have much more experience with lower magnification 8-10x. I like the option of going up to 20+ magnification,but it doesn't make me a better shot currently.
The bigger scope has a much larger range of reticule adjustment internally, so would be much more useful for longer ranges.
Maybe I need a medium sized scope now to try 🤔
@@tillysgunstocks - Thank you very much for replying. You are a great help. OK, copy higher magnification does not offer that much advantage. Clear to me now. Thanks again
I see, so you're an HFT guy. I'm into FT, so 50x mag is a must to be competitive. I started with a 4-16 and it couldn't really range find past 30m, then 6-24 which also couldn't range out to the full 50m. Now I have a Falcon X50. Most of the guys I shoot with don't bother changing magnification, even on super close targets they shoot both eyes open at 50x.
It's mostly the swap to ffp that is curiously hard for me to get to grips with. As the ret grows with the magnification I end up over compensating my natural wobbles. I've just got a falcon to play with,also ffp so we will see how that pans out eh.. 😉
@Tillys Gunstocks My dad just got a Falcon S30 GenII. It's FFP with 34mm tube. Absolute beast, and it's incredible to look through. 50x isn't nice to look through in any scope I think, it's just the tradeoff we make for good rangefinding
hi thx for your channel. any chance a shoot out experiment AA ev2 against AA xti ? thx kevin
Chances of finding a decent standard ev2 nowdays are slim to none. In terms of out the box performance the xti is the better bet. The ev2 evolved a fair bit over its lifetime and can be turned into an absolute beast (I've had a few of the MK3 and 4s) there was some little niggles with the ev2 though with the semi exposed cocking linkage, the pellet probes also ended up flexing and bending. Most of that was sorted in the FTP. The xti a further evolution of the FTP. Reality is any of the later MKS of ev2 and FTP and xti are all mega. There's incremental changes as they have evolved but the ev2 is still a force to be reckoned with.
For me absolutely,ffp range find at 30 mag, shoot at 30 mag down to 12yds
Mate I'm far too jiddery for that 😆
@@tillysgunstocks i shoot ft style for fun but shoot from the sitting style, at 30mag it might look like your moving a lot, but the target looks bigger so you have room for adjusting.
Don't get the surprise tilly focus and range find at high mag then drop the mag for the shot All F.T shooters know this
Hi Trev, it was more the reticle growing with the magnification that was throwing me off a bit. Having pretty much mostly used sfp scopes swapping over to ffp took a bit of time to get used to it. I'm getting the hang of it atlast and actually now prefer ffp for what I'm doing on the channel here 😉
Split the difference and try 15 mag
👍😉
10 x times in my book
£17 for 200 pellets....are you serious?? 🤔
£17? Where did that come from?
Jy moet gie geweer reg van hou.