When it comes to the way Muslims pray and you have to face in direction of Mecca, I thought as a young teen (Irreligious for as long as i can remember) it was pretty stupid and inconvenient. Later on in life it started making sense. On a personal level you feel connected to a wider Muslim world even when praying alone. On a religious level it makes sense to have something that centralize the faith (holy sites within lots of religions). Also, very interesting video!
The way muslims pray even that isnt in quran ! Who made it up we sont even know , probably the non muslim arabs way of praying! Allah is the same word as well !
As an irreligious person, I really, really admire your ability to speak of your own faith in such unbiased, fact-based manner. Really great respect to you, man.
@@AryaputraGemilang No, muslims do not exist anymore. Muhamedans pray to muhamed and hois associate alla, like the innovation shahada tels them Islam is about Isa´s God, muhamedansism is about muhameds alla. Jesus is the real god of 2.5 billion christians, you hate that, but I respect religions
“A revision of history, ON THIS SCALE, in that period is IMPOSSIBLE. I cannot stress this enough.” Mic drop. Thank you. If Petra were the Real Mecca, one would think the Byzantines would have mentioned that they were fighting the people and worshippers of the 'mythical holy shrine’ of Petra. There is this whole body of orientalists and now Evangelicals who keep coming up with really strange theories. They need to be called out publicly.
The Byzantines make no mention of the religion of the Arabs. There is a Byzantine document saying Mecca was in Arabia Patrea. So yes they mention Petra
@@RedWolf75 The suggestion that it was Petra and not Mecca is still wrong. The Quran itself refers to the Nabateans of Petra and condemns them for their polytheism (Quran 15:80-83). Why would the Quran refer to the Nabateans as a different community than the Quraish? It's because they are different.
I truly appreciate the improvements you made to your speech pattern. I was watching some of your earliest videos a while ago and you are a lot more understandable now =) Greetings from Germany
I live in the U.K. most of the mosques don't face towards Mecca. The reason for this is quite simply:most mosques are converted existing buildings like community centres, houses, warehouses and more recently in central London, a Sega Funland. This was probably the case earlier. Inside the mosque we always pray towards Mecca, regardless of the direction of the building.
@monotfrommeccamonotfrommec1520 similar scenario to what it is now. A lot of mosques were built on the location of existing buildings. It was easier to convert an existing building than raze it and re build it. The Hagia Sofia is a prime example.
This is seen in places like the Hagia Sophia as well. In any case, many original mosques in Islamic lands aren't even fully oriented to Mecca. Premodern astronomical technique was good but not always perfect but has been resolved by aligning the prayer rugs with Mecca even if it makes the orientation within the building somewhat awkward.
Apart from that, the location of Petra shows that it has to be under Christian Byzantine rule and as far as I know, no other religion survived with a central locus under Byzantines except christianity, the Jews were kicked out of Jerusalem, all folks religion was destroyed so how come the pre-Islamic polytheism survived in the first place and the same goes for Islam, if Petra would have been the actual Makkah, the Byzantine would had nib it in the bud before it reached the Rashidun Era.
@Siraj Haq Qureshis was a north arabian tribe , north arabians go back to a man called Adnan who lived in the time of Jesus , and the name Adnan was very common in the nabataeans civilization i think after the destruction of the nabataeans kingdom by the romans in 100 AD , many tribes migrated to Hijaz one of them was Qureshis that migrated to Mecca the Nabataeans were the descendants of Ishmael so no contradiction with the fact that the prophet is a descandant from Ishmael
I'm always fascinated by all of Religions history. I am an Atheist and study all aspects of religion ever since time immemorial but I respect all religious views to the highest degree. Salam Alaikum dear muslim brothers
I'm also an atheist, however, do not feel the same. Have you read the Quran, what do you think of 98:6, 9:5 or 9:29? Why should one respect a book that says such things against others?
@@theastronomer5800 You know, one day, you should grab a translation of the Quran and read it contextually, from beginning to the end. Instead of cherry picking verses that are part of a larger conversation and the point that the sura or that part of the sura is trying to make. None of the verses in their proper context say, what you think they are saying.
@@mrweirdguy5249 Of course, and I have three translations at home and have read the Quran twice, along with many hadiths and tafsir. Have you read what Ibn Kathir for example has to say about 9:5 and 9:29? The context seems rather clear to me.
Thank you for this video. I was very conflicted and confused after watching Dan Gibson. You really set the record straight. Thank you. May Allah Bless you. We need more muslims scholars/researches in the Islamic faith.
Dan Gibson is a Christian Romans 3:7 - The New International Version (NIV) 7 Someone might argue, “If my falsehood enhances God’s truthfulness and so increases his glory, why am I still condemned as a sinner?”
If you were conflicted and confused by Dan Gibson then I'm afraid you have very weak iman. How about you learn about your deen from Islamic scholars instead of shayateen
@@Darkest_matter That's not correct. The first mosque was indeed in Makkah. "{Surely the first House ˹of worship˺ established for humanity is the one at Bakkah-a blessed sanctuary and a guide for ˹all˺ people.}" [Quran 3:96] (Bakkah is another name for Makkah)
Actually from an Arab Egyptian Muslim perspective, I feel like many people specially foreigners deal with Islam as an ancient lost civilization and ancient book that we are trying to understand, As if we found stones and temples and hieroglyphs writings and then we knew that there were pharos and ancient Egyptians and we try to understand their history, They deal with Islam as the same thing, Man if you are raised in a house and then left your family and lived somewhere else and a foreigner came to you with a million evidence and papers and witnesses to proof that your old house is actually not here it is in the other street you will not believe him because it's not an ancient temple, you lived here you had a family here. Guys, Mecca and the qibla and the prophet life and the Kaaba are sooooo holy for us, we know each detail of the prophet life in Mecca and in Madina, No one ever can change this things even after all this years, or even after only 10 years, you can't even say that Rome was in Germany then it was shifted to Italy, because it is strong history for you, and mecca is not history for us, it is history and still present we are still living and praying facing it in all the globe from the beginning of Islam, we are not trying to discover a lost civilization here.
Even here in Malaysia, a couple of mosques built 30 years ago were not accurately faced to Kaaba, not until recently ( 5 years ago or so) that the Qibla of the mosques were corrected after recalculation. And this happened at the time where gps exist, so it's totally understandable if the ancient arab miscalculated their Qiblat way before computer ever existed.
lol I find it funny that non-muslims find this misdirected qibla as "suspicious" and try to creates controversy over it, when us muslims are so accustomed to find carpets that set up at odd angle against the wall because the mosque was built in wrong direction.
Yes but early mosques analized by Gipson that pointed to the same spot(petra) that is not random. And that is the point and mistery of the research. Not that some face in other direction but that a group of early mosques faces petra. Why?
People still made mistakes in determining Qibla direction in modern era. The mosques in Indonesia (or Dutch-Indies as named in that era) faced a general West direction before early 20th century. The correct direction is North-West to a certain degree.
Ok, that's fine but what he quickly glossed over is the fact that Dan Gibson went and did the research in person and no one else has he says it's because 'it's not important' but it's because no one dares question Islam. If you know anything about any of the research into this this documentary is worthless at best. He's just using anecdotal information to deny it. Most likely he is an arab Muslim and to them their religion is 100% pure from start to finish zero mistakes and they could never admit they were wrong. He is wrong, I'm pretty certain of that. Dan Gibson isn't an anti Muslim, quite the opposite he loves Islam and the arab countries almost more than anyone I've seen from the west. He would have loved to verify Mecca if his research would have permitted. He is just a historian.
mosques in islamic spain also did this. apparently they held on the opinion that the general direction of prayer was sufficient to make the prayer valid instead if actually facing it
allah is the east and west so quran says dont border about directions, god is everywhere, you dont earn something in positioning your body in this or that direction...
I'm a Christian, and I'm here bcz I like to see both sides of the story. You do have good points here, and I like that you have a more open-minded approach like when you say that there are obscure things in the beginning of the post Mohammad history. I think that we need more research from both sides as you mention it. I'll stay tuned for more videos since I'm interested on the Middle East, more precisely Iran.
Although that he needs to assume a massive cover-up over a long time and a large and diverse area, with _all_ books mentioning an important fact being changed, should ring all the alarm bells that you can imagine. History doesn't work that way; if someone needs to claim something like that for their revolutionary new theory to work, you can usually bet that it's wrong.
@@varana yeah, I think Christians and Jews can use the same argument, how their books could be changed as muslins claim without anyone noticing it, and when that modification could have taken place..., But here we are talking about Islam, so I'm not bringing that here. I have my pros and cons, since the Muslim faith was relatively new and I don't know if in every corner of the empire people were well aware of all things,at least the common people those that weren't able to read arabic. But I'm not adamant about it.
This explanation is as bad as the explanation provided for why Mary is confused with Mary the sister of Aaron and Moses, and why the quran says that Jews consider Uzzair as the Son of God. It is called clutching for straws.
Actually a city in the North completing down plays how importantance the Hadj is. Your second point of rewriting history by later authors, draws into question the reliably of the recorded Quran.
tdwebste3 The Quran was supposedly revealed in 620, an entire Quran was discovered dating from 640 pretty much the same, twenty years is not a lot for the Quran to have been changed so much, and there have been Quran pages discovered at the time of Muhammad carbon dated back to his time, which are the same.
This makes sense because Dan Gibson doesn't mention anything about Madina, how could it be so far away from Petra? he claims Cave Ghar Hira was in Petra because of a crescent sign, but the crescent was actually made by the ottomans and not the muslims. He also claims cannon balls were found in Petra. This is weird because he didn't find ANYthing about the placement or remnants of the Kaba there because of earthquakes and floods that wiped it out but somehow some cannon balls remain? Also how is it that zamzam water still flows in Mecca and not Petra. Which doesnt make sense about safa and marwa. There was no mention about structures being built apart of the mountains which repeatedly struck to me. Why is it that there are no mentions of tall structures in the mountains. There are reports of makkah bieng a small city, not with tall structures. the main attraction was the Kabah that drew people to it for pilgrimage. Yet the most important detail of the remnants of the Kabah are not mentioned in Dan Gibson's 'theory'. He also claims that the city was huge with thousands of people. This is actually false. it was quite a small city with few hundred people or less as dr.Yasir Qadhi explains in more detail. Everyone knew each other at the time. Also if you look at the sites of battle of Badr and Uhud it is nowhere near Petra, how is this? For Muslims: We know that the quran was never changed so as a spiritual point of view we dont accept his statement that the quran was altered from bakkah to makkah. This is also a theory and no real evidence is there accept to support his theory about Petra, all he says is its easy to change a baa to a meem. (arabic letters)
also a big mistake he made. Alexandrias books were not burned by muslims. It was by the christians. The muslim made great findings of the second great library in Persia when they conquered it. He totally flipped the history. the christians were having a war struggling to hold Rome when they burned the library saying they only need the bible, now he's saying the muslims did it. (check Dr.Roy Casandra's research for details) Im not trying to hate on any religion, just simply stating arguments and facts that were misinterpreted and altered.
@@fahmeedamohammad217 I was not aware that he thought Muslims burned Alexandria WHAT? No way is Dan reliable, this video proves that and also many other points such as battles fought around Mecca, and with graves, that date back to the prophet (PBUH) time.
Dan Gibson's theory can be easily disproved because he makes a lot of assumptions to fill in the gaps and TRY to reason with them. But mainly he fails because he has poor knowledge of hadiths and gets many references to be outright false. An arabic youtuber (who speaks english) refuted almost everything about his theory. From the hadiths he misinterpreted or got wrong, to the Qibla argument among others. th-cam.com/play/PLEJMLhtoQWIRXK9o-hv6eyNXxUpEeb5X_.html
When I travelled to the UK from south Asia, I prayed towards the west instinctively for about a month until I realised that mecca is actually in the south east of England. Many of the early Muslims didnt even see a proper world map in their lifetime. So they may have prayed towards the direction where their instincts directed.
Your capability of non-bias astounds me. I don't know how I could think clearly enough to actually look into this and see a thousand people disparage something I hold so dear.
You're 100% right. For example, I'm a Christian, and I'm fascinated by Islamic history because I didn't learn much about it in school. I trust this guy a lot to give me an unbiased and genuine and scientific conclusion without letting his own religious views misguide his judgement.
@@shafiqsha9875 There is a refutation to this theory available on TH-cam th-cam.com/play/PLW1vycCEWR7EhexQWeJrw0701YITXjxZe.html I am not aware of any western leading scholar who has agreed with Dan Gibson's theory, but rather many have disagreed, primarily because he doesn't analise his sources and because he doesn't take into account how the early Muslims calculated the Qibla.
Even in my language ' Urdu" we have a idiom that goes like " Ap apna Qibla darust kijiye" which literally means " You should rectify your direction of Kabbah" and figuratively means " Leave the bad habits and do the right thing"
Thanks for this clarification. I grew up in a muslim household, I am not religious myself and I had the open mind to accept Dan Gibson's hypothesis, I even got excited about it. However, later I started to notice that he had missionary tendencies when he actually started diverting from archaeology and instead talking theology, and most of the times, as you have mentioned, took things literally and transliterated certain statements, that being an Arab, I knew were not accurately interpreted. For example, he seemed so desperate to prove to muslims that their prayers won't be answered since they're not pointing the right way, which having been raised up a muslim, I could easily debunk by saying that God takes the intention into account first. Also he projected a lot of things from the Christian way of crediting worship and assumed in Islam it would be the same. I sent him several emails asking him why he's trying to debunk Islam when there are innumerable theories of Jesus Christ not dying on the cross and others questioning his divinity. He never replied.
@@glasgowblackchigowski6117 Gibson spent over 25 yrs studying in arabia and living through it. don't tell me you know more about the culture than he does. u should credit him for doing what muslims r not doing at all: RESEARCH.
@@cuteawais Gibson's research is as good as my failed school project, there are countless other researchers other than him who are more competent and don't share his views at all, that's historically speaking. But if we come to faith, picking on myslims saying that they don't research their religion as much as the others do, that's big fat lie. Muslims are most knowledgeable about their religion more than any faith in the world, we know our religion inside and outside, unlike mr Gibson's faith that makes him a lot more biased in doing more speculations than real research.
@@shafiqsha9875 There is a refutation to this theory available on TH-cam th-cam.com/play/PLW1vycCEWR7EhexQWeJrw0701YITXjxZe.html I am not aware of any western leading scholar who has agreed with Dan Gibson's theory, but rather many have disagreed, primarily because he doesn't analise his sources and because he doesn't take into account how the early Muslims calculated the Qibla.
@@shafiqsha9875 Virtually all of the western scholars, even the atheist ones disagree with Gibson. I just can't see a serious historian agreeing with such absurd theory
@Siraj Haq you make a pretty good point. Arabic was a backwater language just spoken amongst the Arabs who were tributaries of either the Byzantines or Persians, who know how much those dominant cultural influences seeped into the Arabs and therefore Islam unknowingly before the Islamization of Persia.
I am from Pakistan and many of the mosques I have been to don't directly face Mecca. Because, it simply doesn't matter. The direction we pray towards is not in the direction the mosque is facing, it's Mecca (Rugs are not aligned with the walls of mosque). Direction of mosque is not even an argument in the first place. It's such a random thing to pick and make a propaganda. Not to mention all the historical facts that were presented in this video.
Excellent arguments refuting Dan Gibson's theory. Another argument against it comes to mind based on your discussion of Umayyad rivalry with the Abbasids. Would not Shia Muslims have also criticized moving the Kaaba from Petra to Mecca? The absence of any such criticism speaks volumes to me. Keep up the good work. I subscribed, and, God willing, will help on Patron.
Do you know that the Qarmatians stole the Black Stone for thirty years and transported it to Al-Ahsa, which is east of Saudi Arabia, and then ordered the Arabs to go on pilgrimage to it? What do you think was the response of the Arabs? The Arabs ignored their demands and made a pilgrimage to Mecca because the land is holy, understand?
SALaM, SHLAMa, SHLOMo, SHALoM, NAMASTe, PEACe. Quran [Last Testament]: 15:80-83 The people of the Rock also rejected the messengers. We gave them Our revelations, but they turned away from them. They used to carve homes in the mountains, feeling secure. But the Shout struck them in the morning. Petra The Nabataeans worshipped Arab gods and goddesses during the pre-Islamic era as well as a few of their deified kings... A stele dedicated to Qos-Allah 'Qos is Allah' or 'Qos the god', by Qosmilk (melech - king) is found at Petra. Qos is identifiable with Kaush (Qaush) the God of the older Edomites. The stele is horned and the seal from the Edomite Tawilan near Petra identified with Kaush displays a star and crescent, both consistent with a moon deity. It is conceivable that the latter could have resulted from trade with Harran. There is continuing debate about the nature of Qos (qaus - bow) who has been identified both with a hunting bow (hunting god) and a rainbow (weather god) although the crescent above the stele is also a bow. Nabatean inscriptions in Sinai and other places display widespread references to names including Allah, El and Allat (god and goddess), with regional references to al-Uzza, Baal and Manutu (Manat). Allat is also found in Sinai in South Arabian language. Allah occurs particularly as Garm-'allahi - god dedided (Greek Garamelos) and Aush-allahi - 'gods covenant' (Greek Ausallos). We find both Shalm-lahi 'Allah is peace' and Shalm-allat, 'the peace of the goddess'. We also find Amat-allahi 'she-servant of god' and Halaf-llahi 'the successor of Allah'.
He didn't address any of the actual points of Gibson. Why do the mosques point towards Petra to within an error of only 2.9 degrees? Gibson's work is also supported by linguistic, epigraphic, numismatic and trade route studies over the last few decades - they all point to northern origins of Islam.
@@theastronomer5800 hmm. Good points. And given that Islam is highly influenced by Christianity and Judaism, it would not be surprising to have a Northern origin like the other two abrahamic faiths.
Regardless, just the fact that he's willing to explore this topic impresses me. Modern Muslim thinking is much too conservative, and this is on the border of sensitive as far as mainstream islamic topics go.
@@maisa5943 That is very true. I have seen too many Muslims dismiss any historical evidence as soon as it contradicts their traditional narrative. I find the history very fascinating. Have you read the books by Dr. Puin and Dr. Ohlig by any chance, super interesting! (Early Islam, and The Hidden Origins of Islam). They contain many contributions by scholars in different fields. I find the early Islamic coins very interesting myself! Jay Smith did a decent survey of them if you're have never looked into them (he's a Christian apologists, so you can ignore the few times he talks about Jesus, but his historical summaries are good to listen to). Cheers!
Dan Gibson has 120+ videos on this subject, (=EXTENSIVE RESEARCH) now muslims are all about WISHFULL THINKING concerning the DEMOLISHING MISTAKES IN ISLAM, but they should realize a 10 minute video, is really not going to answer the EXISTING PROBLEMS in this case about PETRA/Mecca....do more research muslims, get your brains active
"A bold idea that seems to shake the faith of more than a billion people just gets picked up by people without much further research" Damnn this is true for all religions tbh!
@@expressdotpc that is how it's with Islam the more you fight us the more we grow and get stronger so keep fighting us as much as you could I really appreciated 😁
I must say I found both Dan Gibson and the cambridge academic very convincing. As a sunni, born Pakistani, who spent some early years in Saudia....I cannot fathom how Mecca could have possibly existed as a city which the Holy Quran describes. Even more is how would Hazrat Hussain go to Koofa from Mecca in 28 days...that is somewhat possible from Petra but not from present day Mecca. Dan also talks about a city called Becca which is near Petra which could have been Mecca. Kaaba , is shape of cube which was a ubiquitous structure found in Arabia ......Muslim intelligentia and their prized books were decimated in 1200 by the Changez Khan....there has never been a voice of reason or dissent after that holocaust.....everything following 1200 -1300 has been tutored under state supervision of Ottomans until 1900's when Middle eastern fiedoms started to assert themselves. The more people find it religiously difficult to accept alternate reality of Mecca, the more I am convinced they have something they feel insecure about.
The Islamic "Golden Age" ended because of the crystallisation of Sunni Islam. The Islamic world cannot "go back to reason" as long as Sunni orthodoxy breathes. So one might ask, why was there an age of reason in Iraq and Persia for 300 years. Well, it is precisely because of how cosmopolitan the society and the intellectual classes were. People then and there could actually read Ancient Greek and Persian (and in the 8th/9th centuries, Sanskrit too!!). Islamic legal scholarship was more of a cottage industry, which in today's Near Eastern Studies scholarship is magnified beyond belief. Once the Ulema moved out of their cottage industry role to become the dominant side-kick or dominant full-stop institution in the Islamic world, reason and creativity and culture/arts were soon to die out. There is a serious contradiction in calling this Golden Age "Islamic" given that Islam (whatever Islam often means) played the most central role in extinguishing free thought.@kekkek2852
Biggest hole in the Petra theory is the zamzam well. One can't shift a spring well from Petra to Mecca. Zamzam well was pre Islamic n historically documented
@@anandgupta4298the safari Marwa mountains, which are in Mecca and not Petra.. the documented trade between Yemen. (More likely to be Mecca than Petra) And the fact that Muhammad (pbuh) went NORTH to medinah Al munnawarah, NOT SOUTH.
@@Darkest_matter safa maria? Which is not even the size of two storey building lol u call that a mountain...they were written to be so huge that it surrounded the city and there was a crack in it through which people used to pass...it is in petra dan gibson also explained this
@@Darkest_matter muslims are blind folded when someone gives literally each n every proof...petra is mecca is not theory its proven through all means i.e, archeology,scripture analysis,historical mentions,etc
Petra was at the edge of the Roman Empire, home of Muhammad’s clan. Religious thinkers gathered at the edges of the empire escaping orthodoxy, Roman had a long history of inventing religions, to cement the army together and control the countryside cheaply. I find it hard that Petra wasn’t the intellectual heart of the original movement and going on Christian religious sites Mecca was chosen later as being better for cash flow and safer from annihilating attack, Petra being severely damaged by earth quakes
Lol, Mecca is in Mecca, not Petra, since the Prophet was born in Mecca, not Petra, the Quraish have always been the rulers of Mecca, and the Prophet migrated to the north (Medina), Medina is north of Mecca, not the south, And Petra was under Roman rule, while Mecca was a tribal city state
Lol, Mecca is in Mecca, not Petra, since the Prophet was born in Mecca, not Petra, the Quraish have always been the rulers of Mecca, and the Prophet migrated to the north (Medina), Medina is north of Mecca, not the south, And Petra was under Roman rule, while Mecca was a tribal city state
And when establishing the state of Medina, the Meccans always wanted to attack, until finally they lost, and entered the territory of the state of Medina, then they came into contact with the Romans on the northern border,
And when establishing the state of Medina, the Meccans always wanted to attack, until finally they lost, and entered the territory of the state of Medina, then they came into contact with the Romans on the northern border,
We actually do have a few very early non Muslim sources mentioning the Kaa'ba and it's location in Arabia. Read the Khusistan chronicle written in 650s CE.
@@ekadria-bo4962 because hejaz have huge mountains and big cities like in Taif & Thaqif & have large fertile cities oasis like Madina & it's close to Tihama & Yemen..... There's no doubt that nowadays Makkah is the same as the pre-islamic Makkah.
As an arabic speaker who read Dan gibson work, the guy made numorous mistakes translating some words in arabic he didnt account for vowel per example he translated a certain word حِجر to حَجر which both look the same other than the vowel but have totaling different meaning one means a rock the other means Lap. so im not that surprised of the inconsistencies of his work pretty genuine i guess but still Wrong
You can't change history, just as you can't say Mecca is the place of Adam and hundreds of prophets, whereas history never records that place existed before the 7th century. listen, there is not enough water source, there will be no civilization, period.
Thank for this. I'm a student of Islam and Middle Eastern studies from Jerusalem, Israel. And you convinced me of the inconsistencies of Dan Gibson's hypothesis.
@@NP1066 he's a jewish anti Muslims just like I said ..he wrote the book return to Mecca... he did lots of academic research for this matter and its far more convincing than Gibson one ..such as who built the kaba,
@@inongbalee3092 You're presenting him as an anti-muslim and you expect me to like or be interested with what I'm hearing? That's a turn-off right away. As a Jew myself I'm against people who are anti-muslims. I wouldn't dedicate my studies to Islam if I didn't like and respect muslim people and Islam.
@@NP1066 my emphasis is even though hes an anti islam he still presenting reliable academic reports on his research which later he compile into a books ..his research started from moses exodus so it's cover Petra, though his conclusions are differ with muslim stand point but it's not an issue
MALAY SUBTITLES Part 4 of 4 13:31 terdapat banyak kiblat. Namun, bagi sesiapa yang biasa dengan budaya Arab, ini adalah perkara biasa. 13:37 Orang Arab selalu menggunakan kiasan seperti ini. Ini bukan metafora yang asli, 13:42 sebenarnya dalam Al-Quran. Dalam ayat 148 bab kedua Al-Quran, dikatakan, 13:47 "Semua orang berpaling ke arah mereka sendiri [doa]" 13:50 Maksudnya, semua agama mempunyai kiblat masing-masing. Ini datang dengan segera 13:56 setelah pertukaran kiblat menjadi Tempat Berkumpul Terlarang yang diperintahkan dalam ayat 144. 14:03 Mengatakan bahawa kita adalah orang yang mempunyai kiblat yang sama bermaksud kita menganut agama yang sama. 14:08 Pada masa itu, istilah Muslim tidak digunakan. Sebenarnya, petikan dari al-Tabari yang digunakan oleh Dan Gibson 14:13 tidak lengkap. Baris seterusnya mengatakan, "Kami bukan orang Turki atau Daylamites" 14:18 Maksudnya, "Kami bukan non-Muslim". Metafora digunakan lagi beberapa halaman di mana 14:23 seseorang berkata kepada saudara ibn az-Zubayr, “Kamu adalah orang yang, dalam satu pagi, membunuh 14:28 tujuh ribu orang yang berpaling ke arah kiblat. " Bukan kiblat KAMI tetapi Kiblat. 14:35 Ini adalah metafora yang tidak difahami oleh Dan Gibson secara harfiah. 14:40 Pada akhirnya, terdapat banyak misteri mengenai Islam awal. Banyak fakta telah menyebabkan banyak perkara 14:45 soalan yang tidak dijawab. Walau bagaimanapun, hipotesis yang dikemukakan oleh Dan Gibson 14:50 tidak sesuai sama ada. Mustahil untuk menutup skala ini. Lebih senang dibayangkan 14:56 sejarawan awal membesar-besarkan perincian mengenai Mekah daripada membayangkan semakan semula 15:01 sejarah pada skala luar biasa ini. Walaupun semua ini masuk akal dalam dokumentari, 15:07 apabila anda melihat dunia Islam yang lebih luas pada masa itu, tidak ada cara untuk ini masuk akal. 15:12 Ini sebenarnya adalah keluhan yang saya ada untuk kebanyakan orang di internet. Orang sering memilih 15:16 menyusun sekumpulan fakta dari internet tanpa cuba memahami konteksnya. Sebuah acara 15:20 tidak berlaku sendirian, ia dipengaruhi oleh dunia di sekitarnya. Semasa anda cuba memeriksa sama ada 15:26 cerita itu sahih, anda periksa persekitaran dan konteksnya untuk melihat apakah itu benar-benar mungkin. Malangnya, 15:32 idea berani yang seolah-olah menggegarkan kepercayaan lebih dari satu bilion orang baru saja terpilih 15:36 oleh orang tanpa banyak kajian lebih lanjut. Jumpa awak lain kali. 15:40 Sekiranya anda ingin mengetahui lebih lanjut mengenai sejarah Islam awal, Muslim Sepanyol dan Khilafah Abbasiyah, 15:45 lihat senarai main di saluran saya. Jika anda suka saluran dan jika anda mampu, 15:49 janjikan satu dolar atau lebih di Patreon untuk menyokong saluran tersebut.
I'm so glad I found this, bringing some much-needed objectivity on this subject. Your fairness and well-documented evidence is a good reminder: No matter what one's personal feelings are about a subject as sensitive as this, as a religion it must be respected.
Your closing statement alone single-handedly put the entirety of Gibson's research and works invalidated and cremated to dust. My respect and honour to you in helping out the doubts to whomever question about it. 👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻👍🏻👌🏻
@khairularchi You don't seem to understand that Mecca is a theory, just like Petra is theory. If Petra does not work, this does not mean Mecca works. Both can be non-starters. Mecca being the setting for many of the Qur'an's surahs is impossible. I don't accept the Petra thesis, and I certainly don't accept the Hijazi Mecca either. This video does absolutely no discussion of 7th century history.
SALaM, SHLAMa, SHLOMo, SHALoM, NAMASTe, PEACe. Quran [Last Testament]: 15:80-83 The people of the Rock also rejected the messengers. We gave them Our revelations, but they turned away from them. They used to carve homes in the mountains, feeling secure. But the Shout struck them in the morning. Petra The Nabataeans worshipped Arab gods and goddesses during the pre-Islamic era as well as a few of their deified kings... A stele dedicated to Qos-Allah 'Qos is Allah' or 'Qos the god', by Qosmilk (melech - king) is found at Petra. Qos is identifiable with Kaush (Qaush) the God of the older Edomites. The stele is horned and the seal from the Edomite Tawilan near Petra identified with Kaush displays a star and crescent, both consistent with a moon deity. It is conceivable that the latter could have resulted from trade with Harran. There is continuing debate about the nature of Qos (qaus - bow) who has been identified both with a hunting bow (hunting god) and a rainbow (weather god) although the crescent above the stele is also a bow. Nabatean inscriptions in Sinai and other places display widespread references to names including Allah, El and Allat (god and goddess), with regional references to al-Uzza, Baal and Manutu (Manat). Allat is also found in Sinai in South Arabian language. Allah occurs particularly as Garm-'allahi - god dedided (Greek Garamelos) and Aush-allahi - 'gods covenant' (Greek Ausallos). We find both Shalm-lahi 'Allah is peace' and Shalm-allat, 'the peace of the goddess'. We also find Amat-allahi 'she-servant of god' and Halaf-llahi 'the successor of Allah'.
When I was in Alexandria in Egypt, I was always told to give my back to the sea and turn a little to the left; that way, I should face Mecca, but who knows, I might have been facing India, hahaha.
@Estex There are apps that tell you the directions. But as el muqqadima said, while qibla is vital, we usually tend to face a general direction that should technically make us face Mecca if I am in an unfamiliar environment. But for example, if you are in my home and ask me about qibla, I should know where it is since it is my home after all. Basically, it is the sense of direction that guides you.
@Estex what my school teach is muslim face mecca for praying but the actual kiblat is ur sincerity to face kiblat not the mecca itslef, mecca is kinda symbolization to help us show and rationalize our faith. I mean praying can take us at least a minute and many people more than 5 mnute, when praying on ship or plane we can't ask the captain to not making any directional change so we stay facing mecca
I have a question.... if you face the Kabah anywhere in the World and then turn backwards meaning the Kabah is in the back... You still face the Kabah technically...
My argument is that in a large dessert of Arabia there is only one Zamzam well situated in Mecca which is present here since around 1200 to 1600BC. You dont find such source of water even at 1000 miles around Mecca. It meant a lot to the dessert men and for those who travel in dessert. It is just impossible that this place been ignored by all historians. Since this hub was not thickly populated hence everyone has called in their own name. Quresh were traders and they dont fight, they have no warfare only swords indicating they just had occasional skirmish but never participated in war, hence did not mentioned long in history. They did not knew how to dig trench. Salman farsi was from Iran and lived rest of his live in Madina. So people did know what is Mecca and where it is located.
Nice response. Great for on-going discussion. Thank you. Your comments about Spanish Qibla's are valid, but Dan Gibson only proposes his idea as a possible explanation. As for the cover-up, if Islam (based on leading figures of the Arab conquest) was systematized under the Umayyads and revised under the Abbasids as the glue that held the empire together, then a cover-up is easily acceptable.
Just found your channel linked by Let’s Talk About Religion, your topics look amazing and I’m so excited to find this channel! (I also had to comment on this video specifically because I named my cat Petra after this amazing location.)
@@AlMuqaddimahYT If you Don't answer me then I am gonna Stop watching your Videos,my question is that did Aurangzaib regret Killing his Brothers ? Because he must have known that doing so was a Major Sin in ISLAM! Hence did He or Did he Not????? Please do answer don't be rude and arrogant!!!!!
The reason it cannot be Petra are: 1) They would have to transport Jabal Al Nour (mountain of light) complete with cave to Petra. 2) Jabal Thawr ( Mount Thor) complete with cave to Petra.
As well, other than muslims in these empires, there were muslims in abysinia or ethiopia or habesha, in turk areas were abbasid caliphate didn't reach, new muslims in Indonesia. Like, somebody would have noticed at least, this hypothesis is nonsense
I want you to make a series about Spreading Islam In Nusantara Archipelago (Indonesia, Malaysia, Singapore and Brunei) it will be very Interesting cause spreading Islam in that region is even more peaceful than how Islam Spread in the Middle East
How Islam spread in middle east is based on tyranny of Ummayyad and Abbasid. The struggling to bring back as Rashiduum Caliphate is impossible and still today!
The Greek historian Diodorus Siculus writes about Arabia in his work Bibliotheca historica, describing a holy shrine: "And a temple has been set up there, which is very holy and exceedingly revered by all Arabians".[41] Claims have been made this could be a reference to the Ka'bah in Mecca. However, the geographic location Diodorus describes is located in northwest Arabia, around the area of Leuke Kome, closer to Petra and within the former Nabataean Kingdom and Roman province of Arabia Petraea.
@@adamroodog1718 interesting I wonder what city he’s referring to coils be Petra could be something else we have way to know. Also I looked at Dan Gibsons claims and there are a lot of issues with a lot of his points from him Mis translating words to using fabricated sources to not being fully fair according to his own judgement. With that his claim isn’t strong enough and I don’t by the fact that Petra was the first Qibla. What do you think?
@@umaryusuf537 to tell you the truth umar i dont know and i dont know if anyone truely will know now after so much time. the qibla of the early mosques seems like there is something to it. what that something is again i dont know. the saudis remove anything we could learn about early islam like aisha's house, now a car park and public toilet, the graves of the companions of the prophet, the contents of the kaaba and they were even going to destroy the green mosque during the first gulf war. the cave of hira looks man made to me. especially the roof. the etymology of the word mecca is something like in phonecian is ruined, old arabic is santuary, and narrow, which also seems to fit with petra. in the koran there are alot of traders and merchants. i think its described as the mother of all cities with roads leading north south east and west. that doesnt really fit with mecca. if you were going to jedda for example you would have to leave the plateau go down into the desert to get to mecca and then up again to get back on the road to jedda. ive often thought that if i was islamic and was on the one haj of my poor life would i go to mecca or petra? my answer to myself was i would go to mecca but i would also visit petra just in case. haha. im sitting on the fence dan gibson may or may not be self serving, or blinded by what he has found or even just plain wrong. alot of people who do things like this focus on their discovery and then see it everywhere in everything. but he brings up enough questions that need answers whether he is wrong or not. im interested in the truth. im not religious and not trying to say islam is wrong, im just trying to understand a very interesting part of history. all religions i have studied have this period after the main man dies and before the rules of the religion are set that i find fascinating. budha for example didnt want anyone to pray to him. he wanted the people to focus on learning from his teachings. but people being people made him into a god. at his temples which are called a stupas they paint the face of budha but without ears so budha can never hear the people praying to him. christianity was for jews only until paul returned from corinth with money from the new converts. and now maybe mecca isnt where it is supposed to be. or the inscriptions on the al aqsa mosque dont appear anywhere in the koran, whats up with that. its just something i find really interesting i hope you and your family are happy and healthy and you had a wonderful eid with them recently best of luck adam
@@adamroodog1718 interesting analysis you have. Yeah Dan Gibson does bring up some interesting questions but as far as I’ve seen most have been answered there’s a 30 part series on TH-cam by a Muslim TH-cam who address many of Dans points I cab link it if your interested in watching it
I've flipflopped on this idea often. First I was convinced, then I wasn't, then I watched more of Dan Gibson's videos and I became convinced again, then I researched even more and finally today I honestly am skeptical. A lot of what Gibson says makes sense but I find it hard to believe that such a radical change would go unnoticed. The explanation he gives that that it was and he cites some texts about one of the final tabi3een saying the prayer is being forgotten but that's not the same as an entire city. Can you imagine being an inhabitant of Petra and allowing your community to forget that the city is holy? Also by the time of Muhammad Petra was almost entirely Christian as well, not pagan. But I don't know, the issue is that both sides of this debate have religious axes to grind, Dan is a Christian and associates with apologists, its difficult to find a secular viewpoint. The secular scholars I know of however haven't really paid much attention to this debate.
Did Meccans frozen in time,did they just go extinct hahahah The owner of this channel is Syawish who is atheist one side ,islam another. so that explain this nonsense. Hadiths mentioned all the details of Mecca,if Petra is Mecca,where is Zam Zam Well? Where is Safa Marwah where the Hajar wife of Abraham were running up n down with Ishmael in her hands,wheres this and that valleys? If Petra is Mecca why are archaeologists all affirmed the library located outside Kaabah was a house that Muhammad was gave birth at,and theres measurements of his house size and companions house sizes and nothing like Petra. Islam has seperate history on Petra,not Muhammads history. Hadiths are made by chain.of narrators.individuals who had history of lying or such and narrates a hadith will make the chain weak.So we take the chains that are mostly of holy ppl.and individually judged by the community no biasness. Kaabah was damaged not destroyed. Sauds will smack this Paki Syawish who is torned between being athiest n muslim.and being a wack ass historian.
@@Kuudere-Kun exactly. Not many original muslims to begin. No many maps existed. Many muslims died in war etc. The. Petra got excinct by earthquakes, nobody lift there anymore. The stone had already been moved to Mekka...
Dan Gibson's hypothesis is very weak. i right away dumped it when I learned about it. The language spoken at Petra is Aramaic. If Dan Gibson is correct the earliest quran should have been in Aramaic. Yet the quran had always been written and recitated in Arabic - with the dialect of Mecca.
As strange a theory as it is; it would kind of make sense that Abraham would build the Ka'bah in Petra rather than Mecca - as it's much more closer to the other areas associated with Abraham and the places he and his sons travelled too.
Avi lipkin and anis sorrosh did research on this in order to refute kaba was built by Abraham, the research stagnant with conclusions it was built by Jewish setlers.. And it's not Petra but the current one (today Mecca)
Yeah made more sense if Abraham made ka’bah in petra than in mecca because he left his wife hagar and his son. No way they can survive in a small desert town without somewhere to plant a wheat or palm tree to eat. And in islam it was described being a big city as traders pass by to collect water from zam zam well, but if many trader passes by then at least it will be mentioned in a map or something
I'm Jewish and when I first heard this theory I found it kind of intruiging, but when looking more into it from the perspective of Jewish history that I am familiar with, Muhhamad in the Hijaz makes way more sense. If Muhammed was in Petra durring his lifetime he would have been living in Christain Ghassasinide Kingdom and witnessed the Heraclian revolt and the Persian Byzantine war in Palestine. A facinating part of history that a man with muslim Aramy in Petra would have no doubt gotten involved in, had he been there. But he wasn't. Him being in the Hijaz in a region that had been part of the Jewish Hiymyar kingdom that fell to Aksum just prior to his lifetime leaving the Hijaz independent without a strong cetral authority matches his story much more closely. Also Islam to me seems much more similar to Judaism than Christianity, had Islam been born in Petra it would have been more Christian and less Jewish in worldview, I would expect.
There is a reference to the Roman Persian war of that time in the Koran. Also the Ghassanids were a different sect of Christians than the Romans. Mecca was not on any trade route. Muhamed fled Petra and went to Medina.
Actually you see some Islamic schools of beliefs like Alawites having a lot of similarities to Christian beliefs. I would say it is due to their location because they are one of the earliest groups of Syrian and Lebanese Muslims (or even Levantine Muslims). It is hard to know with alawites because a lot of people spread rumors about them.
Stupid, before the Prophet migrated to Medina, the first group of Muslims who migrated were told to go to Abyssinia, the closest region to the south, if you think Dipetra is very far away, and there are no Quraiys tribes in Petra,, the Quraysh tribe has always been in Mecca, and the first Qibla of Muslims was Al Aqsa, initially the Qibla of the Prophet's mosque faced north (Al Aqsa), then when Allah ordered it to face the Kabbah, i The direction changes to the south, yes south to Mecca, Medina is located north of Mecca, not south, so when you turn the Qibla you go south, while Petra is north of Medina, it's very far. And that's roman territory@@RedWolf75
Stupid, before the Prophet migrated to Medina, the first group of Muslims who migrated were told to go to Abyssinia, the closest region to the south, if you think Dipetra is very far away, and there are no Quraiys tribes in Petra,, the Quraysh tribe has always been in Mecca, and the first Qibla of Muslims was Al Aqsa, initially the Qibla of the Prophet's mosque faced north (Al Aqsa), then when Allah ordered it to face the Kabbah, i The direction changes to the south, yes south to Mecca, Medina is located north of Mecca, not south, so when you turn the Qibla you go south, while Petra is north of Medina, it's very far. And that's roman territory@@RedWolf75
And during the conquest of Mecca, if Mecca was in Petra (Roman), it was the same as fighting against Roman, But no, during their conquest against the Quraysh rulers of Mecca, this independent territory was not controlled by non-Arab rulers, and when the prophet moved to Medina he stopped first in the city of Taif, Taif is east of Mecca, not Jordan, LOL
It is mentioend clearly in the Quran Surah al-Baqarah 144 "We have seen the turning of your face towards heaven. So We will turn you towards a direction that will satisfy you. So turn your face towards the Sacred Mosque. And wherever you may be, turn your faces towards it" the sacred mosque in Mecca
This reminds me of the hypothesis that early Arab ideological conflict was an extension of the rivalry between the Ghassanids and Lakhmids. Just wish we knew more specifically.
9:44 You point out that Mecca had no agriculture to speak of. Ok, so why does the Quran make what are obviously references to local agriculture if it were written in Mecca. This was one of the most damning observations by Patricia Krone. It easy to take on Gibson, he is very partisan of Petra as the original Mecca, but there is a lot of other evidence that exists that Mecca was not in the Hejaz, whether or not it was Petra. You point out that he is the only person who has done this in depth study of kibblah direction. Well, there has been plenty of time to restudy these sites and truely refute his work. Why has it not been done? Afraid of what it will show? Also, when you comment about the mosque in Pakistan pointing towards a Mecca, you glossed over that fact that it was built in the period that Gibson identifies as one where the kibblah directions begin to change, so that is not a good example.
What reference to local agriculture you speak of? As for the Kiblah, the video was polite. Muslims, other than the first 30 years, never really had just one unified state. There was always small areas out of control. And during the abbasid period, there were two simultaneous states with equal influence and power - facing the same kiblah. As for the actual direction, it is simple. People were guessing. Here’s a story, Our local masjid was built in 1990s, and sometime in the mid 2000s, some one brought a compass and we changed the Kiblah. This is very common. As a matter of fact, because in the Quran there’s a verse understating the important of precision in terms of facing the Kiblah, Muslims historically were content with just facing the general direction of hijaz, the region housing the Kabah.
F.E. Peters in his Book "The Hajj..." (Princeton university 1994) quotes an inscription found on the makam Ibrahim in Mekka. People at that time couldn´t read it until they found a jewish scholar, who translated, that this place belongs to "Zebaot" - a name of God frequently mentioned in the old testament. This points to Mekka being a holy site to Judaism many centuries before the advent of islam. (The inscripion was probably in old hebrew script, which in the time of the Kaaba restoration few people could read)
Apparently it was. There was some theory suggests that Moses the great Prophet of Jew once visited Arabia, studied under Jethro and most likely visited the Becca (or Ka'bah)
I take issue with what the author claims are Dan Gibson's "conclusions". All Mr. Gibson did in his video was present hypothesis, which is far different than a conclusion. What explanation do you have regarding such things as peoples, geography, and vegetation in the Quran referring to things more closely found in the Petra area than in Mecca? The author acknowledges that some things may be lost and exaggerated in early histories. Ok, what explanation do you have for what Mr. Gibson observes? How do you explain the total lack of archeological evidence of anything in Mecca that predates 800 AD?
th-cam.com/play/PLEJMLhtoQWIRXK9o-hv6eyNXxUpEeb5X_.html Also 2nd century Mecca The historic consensus in academic scholarship has long been that "Macoraba", the place mentioned in Arabia Felix by Claudius Ptolemy, is Mecca.[24] More recent study has questioned this association.[25] Many etymologies have been proposed: the traditional one is that it is derived from the Old South Arabian root M-K-R-B which means "temple".[25]
Detective o will made a really good playlist for all of this. You should check it out and you should watch all the videos as it goes in parts of course.
@@AaronHafeezGFX Actually, the burden of proof resides entirely with Islam. They are the ones making outrageous historical claims. Dan Gibson challenges that, and the muslims don't like being challenged.
Bruh there's evidence that Mecca was a hub for religions and pilgrimages before Muhammad (like it says in the Qur'an) and it also said Muhammad smashed the idols that were inside the Kaaba. Now, you don't see idols in mekkah but you still see stone statues in Petra. This, Mecca is Mecca.
This channel is seriously underrated!!! I seriously recommend doing more collabs because more ppl need to find you! (It's how I found you. your collab on your did mohammad exist video)
Question: are there any mentions of Mecca - by Arab or non-Arab sources - prior to the 8th century? Why does Mecca not show up on any pre-10th-century maps? Why are there no 7th-century coin mints there, or any archeological support for such an (allegedly) ancient city?
@@wantrevize Ibn Ishaq's Sirah, supposed to be dated at early 8th century is the earliest source of the charter. But it is also lost writings, referenced by Ibn Hisham in the 9th century. Earliest attestable writing about the charter is then dated at 9th century. Same problem for the Abû 'Ubayda writings about the charter, referenced by Tabarî in the 10th century. How do you respond to that ?
Not to agree or disagree with Dan, but he presented very compelling evidences. You chose to dismiss them and treat them as light weight but did not succeed in discreting them all together in my opinion. The early days of Islam, like you said, remain a mystery, so many things could have happened. If researchers put their mind to it, a lot can be discovered. However, many like you will interpret it as an attack on the religion. Do you actually believe that the stories we have today of the early days of a any given religion are true? Or at least fully true? Of course when a religion becomes an empire, it helps to have a common narrative, therefore a purge of older texts is possible, something you assert that is impossible. I don't know about your credentials but you do make bold statements. At least Dan Gibson presented evidences that can be put on the table and discussed. If anything, I find the notion of Petra or any other city to the north of mecca to be the actual mecca to be an exciting hypothesis that merits further exploration. Unfortunately, we all know how virtually impossible for many scholars, especially Arabic or Muslim ones to look into their religious background with a critical eye. Fundamentalists (of all religious backgrounds btw) just don't like it when someone tells them this and that that does not fit their dogma.
wait what ? the guy presented several counter arguments that made sense. what do you mean he didnt challenge them ? I swear you folks just believe what you want to believe
This video provides horrible counter arguments like a Karen. Dan Gibson,s evidence is taught in most universities , even in Africa where I studied and the Muslim students where furious but evidence beats narratives which this video promotes. A Muslim has to lack clear critical thinking skills to believe anything this video says as maybes.
It appears that Dan has presented a very concocted version of the second Islamic civil war. Muslims just don't just pray facing towards the Kaaba but they have been doing another thing at that direction from that time to now, they bury their deceased facing towards mecca now Dan has responded to it in a video but his statements and arguments seem not to satisfy me also after ibn Zubair was killed Hajjaj still had crushed the rebellion for a time and during this period even in agony he would have demolished the Kaaba and shifted it back to Petra as we know Hajjaj did demolish the Kaaba built by ibn Zubair and reconstructed it by raising the entrance door and changing the little rectangular shape to a more cubic shape and it would have been the perfect opportunity for him to rebuild it and shift back to Petra instead he rebuilds it at the same place.
I think Dan Gibson has given more and advance research into his work than you did. I am happy with more brains adding up on the table. Islam is not an arabic culture please, Meccca has no architecture that dates back for over 1k years? I think there is a lot of historical problems with early Islam and it is so difficult to asked because when you do asked or research you are seen to be challenging the word of Allah. I think for now Dan research is still holding and needs further research than the things you stated here. Thank you friends and let's continue to look seek the truth whiles we practice Islam in peace.
First Gibson’s theory is slightly being misconstrued. There’s far more to it, and using the modern perceptions of whether modern Muslims face the black stone or the Kaaba is a non sequitur, particularly given what you said about the early Islamic history being inconsistent with modern thought. There are references to the black stone being followed by Arab worshipers for centuries across different civilizations, and even the early Islamic historians mention several Kaabas. Also as an historian you should know that in the early Islamic centuries and after scholarship wasn’t lead by the Arabs, it was lead by the Persians and other people’s with advanced civilizations who’s lands were being occupied. That excuse about what the early Muslims were not capable of doing because they’re Bedouin is disappointing. His theory is far more complex than the directions the Qiblas are facing.
@Kek Kek yeah I completely agree, and I don’t think he meant to purposely misconstrue Gibson’s theory but the arguments he uses are self defeating. For example saying Bukhari and Ibn Hisham are unreliable would throw modern Islam out of the window, including Muhammad. That cannot be a defense of the standard narrative, especially when asking for contemporary sources, while ignoring that the Islamic tradition in the first century doesn’t have contemporary sources. I personally don’t believe Petra was Mecca either, but mainly because I don’t believe the Quran was referencing a single place nor was there a sole writer to the Quran. What I appreciate about Gibson is that he’s attempting to fill in the massive gaps that clearly exist in the fiction about a caliphate that took down two of the largest empires in history while having constant internal conflict. Saying they were Bedouins isn’t good enough anymore for the historical inaccuracies.
My understanding is that Dan Gibson made his presentation and encouraged scholars to examine it. The book burning and selective recompilations by the Ummayads and Abbisds alone to me is a history worth examining, even if his qibbla and Petra ideas are misguided. Even in context, the person may have been replying diplomatically: agreeing that they are both followers of Mohammed, saying let’s not fuss over the direction they face for prayer.
SALaM, SHLAMa, SHLOMo, SHALoM, NAMASTe, PEACe. Quran [Last Testament]: 15:80-83 The people of the Rock also rejected the messengers. We gave them Our revelations, but they turned away from them. They used to carve homes in the mountains, feeling secure. But the Shout struck them in the morning. Petra The Nabataeans worshipped Arab gods and goddesses during the pre-Islamic era as well as a few of their deified kings... A stele dedicated to Qos-Allah 'Qos is Allah' or 'Qos the god', by Qosmilk (melech - king) is found at Petra. Qos is identifiable with Kaush (Qaush) the God of the older Edomites. The stele is horned and the seal from the Edomite Tawilan near Petra identified with Kaush displays a star and crescent, both consistent with a moon deity. It is conceivable that the latter could have resulted from trade with Harran. There is continuing debate about the nature of Qos (qaus - bow) who has been identified both with a hunting bow (hunting god) and a rainbow (weather god) although the crescent above the stele is also a bow. Nabatean inscriptions in Sinai and other places display widespread references to names including Allah, El and Allat (god and goddess), with regional references to al-Uzza, Baal and Manutu (Manat). Allat is also found in Sinai in South Arabian language. Allah occurs particularly as Garm-'allahi - god dedided (Greek Garamelos) and Aush-allahi - 'gods covenant' (Greek Ausallos). We find both Shalm-lahi 'Allah is peace' and Shalm-allat, 'the peace of the goddess'. We also find Amat-allahi 'she-servant of god' and Halaf-llahi 'the successor of Allah'.
@Samsun Nahar There is a refutation to this theory available on TH-cam th-cam.com/play/PLW1vycCEWR7EhexQWeJrw0701YITXjxZe.html I am not aware of any western leading scholar who has agreed with Dan Gibson's theory, but rather many have disagreed, primarily because he doesn't analise his sources and because he doesn't take into account how the early Muslims calculated the Qibla.
All you had to do is read about prophet Abraham stories to know where is the real mecca, he's the one that literally built the Kaaba. I honestly don't understand how someone could believe Gibson if they knew about the story of prophet Abraham, no other place fit the location in the story perfectly than Mecca.
I always thought it was weird that the Bible describes Hagar settling with Prophet Ismael by a well in the desert. There are a group of people who live in the desert claiming to be descendants of prophet Ibrahim's son Ismael living by a well and celebrating finding the well, the Christians are like no way they are actually children of Ibrahim. its like the British admit to losing a colony in North America there are people in North America celebrating independence from Britain and you come to the conclusion that they do not know what they are doing they should be celebrating independence from China and this is a massive cover-up
I can give you a very recent example of a nation collectively forgetting a truth about their past, even only a couple of generations ago: Ask any European woman if they were aware that many European women until 1900's wore headscarves in public life, for example in Britain it was considered inappropriate for a woman not to. Let's ask them and see if the majority is aware of that fact. Political and social authorities can be much more powerful than we think is possible in shaping collective memory, identity and worldview.
@@sabrina1380m The point stands that what is considered ”primitive, oppressive, and backwards” by the west has always been something they themselves instituted as well not long ago
Doesn't matter whether or not the majority is "aware" of it - there is ample evidence of the fact. The example you give is not the equivalent of a systematic erasure of evidence. The American south is a better example of a deliberate attempt to suppress and erase history, with their attempt to literally whitewash the civil war and make it about a noble cause rather than slavery. They literally did rewrite the history books - and yet the evidence still exists that the civil war wwas about slavery. So the idea that the history of Mecca being Petra could so totally be suppressed - no, I don't buy that.
@@sabrina1380m you are comparing a cultural behavior changing over a long time to religious fundamental position changing overnight and yet no one reacted to it how is that even possible? People were coming to hajj every year from all over the world and changing the position would be a point of interest for them no?
@@isseabdirahmanweheliye9010 anything can disappear from the mind of the people with enough doctrine and fear, e.g: Tiananmen Square, Japan’s atrocities in WWII
@@avtaras I don't know? They(Muslims in speakers corner) cite the specifics to the point. Christian trolls run away for lack of information. On their part.
@@cuteawais Christians say that Isaiah 42 is not about Muhammad, because the Sela is not sela of medina but rather in Edom which is Petra. Now, they have to accept prophet Muhammad since they believe Dan Gibson, lol.
I don’t get the controversy, we know Jesus wasn’t born in Bethlehem (if we accept that he did exist, which most scholars do), they just changed that to fit the Old Testament prophesy. Doesn’t materially change what Christian’s believe if he’d been born in Nazareth instead. Might have been an issue for some Jewish converts, but nowadays what’s the difference?
Why and how could people build a very important shrine in the middle of no where while no one could live nearby to maintain it? Why would people consider a barren land as the holy place? Why was the Forbidden Area needed to be installed when nobody wanted to go there because it was so unimportant? The "cover up" could succeed might be the same reason as you mentioned "people just didn't take qibla as seriously as we do today".
Thank you so much for making this video. I have been following Gibson and his interesting hypothesis. However I stopped following him since I have realized he is biased against islam and his lack of understanding of Semitic culture. I am glad you shed light on his interesting hypothesis. We need more videos like this that takes strict scientific take of early Islamic history.
SALaM, SHLAMa, SHLOMo, SHALoM, NAMASTe, PEACe. Quran [Last Testament]: 15:80-83 The people of the Rock also rejected the messengers. We gave them Our revelations, but they turned away from them. They used to carve homes in the mountains, feeling secure. But the Shout struck them in the morning. Petra The Nabataeans worshipped Arab gods and goddesses during the pre-Islamic era as well as a few of their deified kings... A stele dedicated to Qos-Allah 'Qos is Allah' or 'Qos the god', by Qosmilk (melech - king) is found at Petra. Qos is identifiable with Kaush (Qaush) the God of the older Edomites. The stele is horned and the seal from the Edomite Tawilan near Petra identified with Kaush displays a star and crescent, both consistent with a moon deity. It is conceivable that the latter could have resulted from trade with Harran. There is continuing debate about the nature of Qos (qaus - bow) who has been identified both with a hunting bow (hunting god) and a rainbow (weather god) although the crescent above the stele is also a bow. Nabatean inscriptions in Sinai and other places display widespread references to names including Allah, El and Allat (god and goddess), with regional references to al-Uzza, Baal and Manutu (Manat). Allat is also found in Sinai in South Arabian language. Allah occurs particularly as Garm-'allahi - god dedided (Greek Garamelos) and Aush-allahi - 'gods covenant' (Greek Ausallos). We find both Shalm-lahi 'Allah is peace' and Shalm-allat, 'the peace of the goddess'. We also find Amat-allahi 'she-servant of god' and Halaf-llahi 'the successor of Allah'.
Its a tantalizing concept. It would be worthwile to challenge it with archaeology. Just because Petra deserves its history in Islam, whatever it is. Some things that I also am curious about. The stone was placed in the Qaba by Ismael, but Abraham and Isaac were buried in Hebron. Its the burial place of Aaron. It was the place moses drew water from a stone. Would in not have been more logical that Ishmael would have been in that area close to his family? Petra was also a trading hub for the insence trade at the time. Muhammed may have been there a lot just as a part of life. Petra was like a central location for the many tribes and nations to gather at and was the capital of the nebateean kingdom. Its worth learning more. It does not devalue where the Qaaba is if it has merit.
I watched dan Gibson's doc and read some of his stuff and it really seems he found something groundbreaking. His answers and research findings are not vague but is concrete with all the evidences still there in petra.
@kingleonidas7594 Exactly. The arguments in Qur'anic Geography have much more evidence than just qibla directions. I doubt the author of this video actually read his works.
@@bilosan97 we muslim believe firmly that is the makkah wherein prophet Abraham together with his son ismael as his helper built the makkah.. Whether that zamzam water mentioned or not the fact is that is near makkah where angel Gabriel opened it..
@@bilosan97 what about safa and marwa mounts that are mentioned in the quran and a part of the hajj ,this is known in makkah today, also where is madina (YATHRIB) which is also mentioend in the quran into consideration in this dumb conspiracy . no where. this petra BS is a fantasy that is just as bad as saying rome is london.
@@bilosan97 research well before making any personal opinion..it is clear that you are anti Muslim..be careful because your god Jesus is a Muslim and prophet only .
Thank you for your take on that theory. It sounds absurd. I just wanted to note a couple of things: Mecca, while still being in a dry climate, it is in a valley "بوادٍ غير ذي زرع" and could have some green surfaces like palm trees, minding that was after Hajar and Ismail were moved to there. Olives would have been weird, though. Also, "Muslimeen" was mentioned during the lifetime of Muhammad (peace be upon him) so the term was actually used, but it is well known that facing our Qiblah is a major unifying character that is likely used to remind someone of the unity of Muslims.
SALaM, SHLAMa, SHLOMo, SHALoM, NAMASTe, PEACe. Quran [Last Testament]: 15:80-83 The people of the Rock also rejected the messengers. We gave them Our revelations, but they turned away from them. They used to carve homes in the mountains, feeling secure. But the Shout struck them in the morning. Petra The Nabataeans worshipped Arab gods and goddesses during the pre-Islamic era as well as a few of their deified kings... A stele dedicated to Qos-Allah 'Qos is Allah' or 'Qos the god', by Qosmilk (melech - king) is found at Petra. Qos is identifiable with Kaush (Qaush) the God of the older Edomites. The stele is horned and the seal from the Edomite Tawilan near Petra identified with Kaush displays a star and crescent, both consistent with a moon deity. It is conceivable that the latter could have resulted from trade with Harran. There is continuing debate about the nature of Qos (qaus - bow) who has been identified both with a hunting bow (hunting god) and a rainbow (weather god) although the crescent above the stele is also a bow. Nabatean inscriptions in Sinai and other places display widespread references to names including Allah, El and Allat (god and goddess), with regional references to al-Uzza, Baal and Manutu (Manat). Allat is also found in Sinai in South Arabian language. Allah occurs particularly as Garm-'allahi - god dedided (Greek Garamelos) and Aush-allahi - 'gods covenant' (Greek Ausallos). We find both Shalm-lahi 'Allah is peace' and Shalm-allat, 'the peace of the goddess'. We also find Amat-allahi 'she-servant of god' and Halaf-llahi 'the successor of Allah'.
From the heart. It feels good to see a Musilim dismisse/disprove an "attack" on his fate by strength of argument instead of an outburst of violence. This video is truly special.
Geographical references in the Quran relate to north-western Arabia in the region of Petra. Qiblas of Mosques pointed towards Petra til until 724 AD. Starting with 822 AD all mosques quiblas pointed to Mekka (Arabia). Mekka (Arabia) does not fit the descriptions in the quran. Mekka (Arabia) was not situated on a major trade route. No archeological record in mekka (Arabisa) before 700 AD. Plants mentioned in the quranic mekka did never grow in Mekka (Arabia). Petra was a pirlgirmage-center before and in the times of early islam. Attacks of the Mekkans on the city of Medina are reported to have taken place from the north (which makes no sense given that Mekka (Arabia) is in the south of medina. Reported distances in islamic reports make sense when related to Petra.
This explanation is as bad as the explanation provided for why Mary is confused with Mary the sister of Aaron and Moses, and why the quran says that Jews consider Uzzair as the Son of God. It is called clutching for straws.
A lot of questionable implications came to my mind as I was reading your comment. If the so called "outburst of violence" is the first thing that came to your mind when thinking about the question "How do Muslims usually reply to this sort of stuff?", then you really need to change your expectations. There are maaaany videos like these made by Muslims, especially when they have to refute or reply to certain allegations and what not. This video is not special, but it's still very good nonetheless, that's the only thing you're right about.
To be fair I see Christians, Jews, and Hindus do this. I shared a video explaining the location where people think the third temple is, is not an accurate location. A bunch of fundamentalist Jews lost it. This is a problem of religious nationalism period. It exists in all forms there is Muslim nationalists on the internet (Mohammed Hijab types), Christian nationalist (Eric Hovanah types), Jewish nationalist types (actually if anything I think a lot of pan-Judean organizations represent this well), Hindu Nationalism (Lev Patel especially when he says all abrahamic faiths are just Zoroastrian), etc. People being competitive over religion is a problem and those organizations/“influencers” expedite the problem.
I mean sort of there is that whole timeline of Judaism happening in ancient Egypt. Ironic seeing as some in Israel wanted Ethiopian Jews to reconvert or did not believe Yemeni Jews (two of the oldest Jewish communities). Meanwhile they did not question any Ashkenazi communities.
No mosque in the world is build facing ka’bah , it’s not a requirement, though some may have build. But in all mosques prayer are performed facing in the direction of the ka’bah in Makkah this is the most important thing.
What Dan Gibson doesn't understand is, Kabbah is the symbol the Moslem or Islam will be gathered, the Moslem pray to Qibla or Kabbah direction is to unite Muslims. If a Moslem lost or made a journey and doesn't know Qibla or Kabbah direction they still can do the pray. It's not the right or wrong direction, but the important thing is as a Moslem should remember to their one God (Allah) and do that by praying. So Dan Gibson theory "Have Muslims Been Praying In The Wrong Direction" well unfortunately does not affect us as Muslims. Sorry to say but Dan Gibson throwed away moneys for his useless research.
Lol this is a lie. We have very old masjids dating back to the time of the Prophet. Search masjid al qiblatayn in somalia. 2 qibla since it used to be towards Jerusalem but got changed to Makkah during the prophets lifetime.
@@duckgoat7570 Thank you for attempted rightmakin. Article in wikipedia doesn't say how the mosque was dated. All I know is that there has been much deception since the very beginnin so, without bein an intensive scholar on the topic, I have no way to validate nor to invalidate any particular statement I am not interested to spend much time findin details, but would rather see a finished presentation by someone else. Therefore, without bein willin to spend the time, I cannot discuss it with you in a way that might bring, to you, satisfaction. However I will warn you against "conformism" (which is horizontal or social) versus actually askin "God" for the answer (vertical), which he promised that he will give if we ask.
Dan Gibson dedicated a lifetime to these discoveries. The more astonishing thing is that islamists in the middle age (or whatever period that was) decided to change facts, erase evidence and started to live by lies ... and they still do to this day. Apparently to avoid the pain of being wrong and deceived and lied to and telling lies for hundreds of years. But is that the reason for the violent nature of islam?
SALaM, SHLAMa, SHLOMo, SHALoM, NAMASTe, PEACe. Quran [Last Testament]: 15:80-83 The people of the Rock also rejected the messengers. We gave them Our revelations, but they turned away from them. They used to carve homes in the mountains, feeling secure. But the Shout struck them in the morning. Petra The Nabataeans worshipped Arab gods and goddesses during the pre-Islamic era as well as a few of their deified kings... A stele dedicated to Qos-Allah 'Qos is Allah' or 'Qos the god', by Qosmilk (melech - king) is found at Petra. Qos is identifiable with Kaush (Qaush) the God of the older Edomites. The stele is horned and the seal from the Edomite Tawilan near Petra identified with Kaush displays a star and crescent, both consistent with a moon deity. It is conceivable that the latter could have resulted from trade with Harran. There is continuing debate about the nature of Qos (qaus - bow) who has been identified both with a hunting bow (hunting god) and a rainbow (weather god) although the crescent above the stele is also a bow. Nabatean inscriptions in Sinai and other places display widespread references to names including Allah, El and Allat (god and goddess), with regional references to al-Uzza, Baal and Manutu (Manat). Allat is also found in Sinai in South Arabian language. Allah occurs particularly as Garm-'allahi - god dedided (Greek Garamelos) and Aush-allahi - 'gods covenant' (Greek Ausallos). We find both Shalm-lahi 'Allah is peace' and Shalm-allat, 'the peace of the goddess'. We also find Amat-allahi 'she-servant of god' and Halaf-llahi 'the successor of Allah'.
Even today there are many mosques in Pakistan that are built incorrectly I use the qibla campus and many of our mosques have difference of minor degrees but those minor degrees could mean praying towards medina or yemen or who knows maybe jerusalem 😂
I did a quick Wikipedia research about Dan Gibson and according to the Wiki article, Gibson is a self-published author with no educational or academic background. If anyone knows more about this, please comment below.
The reason why some prepaid people want Petra not Makka to be the beginning of Islam is that they want simply to say that Muhammad learnt from the Romans, Christians and others all what he brought in Quran since Makka had nothing at all. I would tell them Islam will triumph. Islam has been fought since day 1 and Islam always wins.
this kinda seems like an emotional response in disguise, tbh. i'm not judging tho. anyway, now that you mentioned explicitly the exact location of the first Qibla, and the fact that some of us here can indeed read and understand Quran in arabic, i was wondering, could you just enlighten us where in the verse [2 : 144] or any other (related) verses for that matter, it is mentioned that the first Qibla was in Jerusalem? ps. ofc, this is a rhetorical question. we already know the answer: it's not mentioned anywhere. or maybe, this is just another "metaphor" that the rest of us don't understand after all!
I think you missed the actual facts. You provided no evidence. Gibson provides evidence. You failed trying to do peer review. When you engage in peer review you must guide the student with factual evidence to review. You failed at that . I would say your comments are baseless.
Funny thing, I was in Petra with two of my three younger sisters and a guest four years ago, when I heard the athaan. Just listening to it made our visit all the more special and spiritual. ☺️ ❤️
Macca =petra bacca=Jerusalem The kiss of truth is occupied Jerusalem now, . Where is the Sacred Mosque? Reading Surat Al-Baqarah knows the location of the Sacred Mosque in the city of Jerusalem. This is the secret of Palestine
SALaM, SHLAMa, SHLOMo, SHALoM, NAMASTe, PEACe. Quran [Last Testament]: 15:80-83 The people of the Rock also rejected the messengers. We gave them Our revelations, but they turned away from them. They used to carve homes in the mountains, feeling secure. But the Shout struck them in the morning. Petra The Nabataeans worshipped Arab gods and goddesses during the pre-Islamic era as well as a few of their deified kings... A stele dedicated to Qos-Allah 'Qos is Allah' or 'Qos the god', by Qosmilk (melech - king) is found at Petra. Qos is identifiable with Kaush (Qaush) the God of the older Edomites. The stele is horned and the seal from the Edomite Tawilan near Petra identified with Kaush displays a star and crescent, both consistent with a moon deity. It is conceivable that the latter could have resulted from trade with Harran. There is continuing debate about the nature of Qos (qaus - bow) who has been identified both with a hunting bow (hunting god) and a rainbow (weather god) although the crescent above the stele is also a bow. Nabatean inscriptions in Sinai and other places display widespread references to names including Allah, El and Allat (god and goddess), with regional references to al-Uzza, Baal and Manutu (Manat). Allat is also found in Sinai in South Arabian language. Allah occurs particularly as Garm-'allahi - god dedided (Greek Garamelos) and Aush-allahi - 'gods covenant' (Greek Ausallos). We find both Shalm-lahi 'Allah is peace' and Shalm-allat, 'the peace of the goddess'. We also find Amat-allahi 'she-servant of god' and Halaf-llahi 'the successor of Allah'.
I think the most crucial thing Dan talks about is how Mecca is described and how Petra fits the bill. Secondly, how come all the (remaining) mosques in first 100 years face the same direction (if direction was not that important). I think it requires some open minded approach and research on all of us as humans. (Just so you know i am neither theologian nor historian, my opinion doesn't matter at all, i just watched two videos and found the topic very interesting).
No it’s not Petra. You had thousands of people that performed Hajj each year and no one mentioned “For some reason the trip to Mecca was 1,000 miles more than I expected” c’mon
Brother, your way of presentation is really great. But , you are wrong in one thing , pre-Islamic Arab merchants were really good at pointing directions, they used positions of stars , stone and thread and also poems . So directions of those old quiblas could not be unintentionally wrong. Also Hipparcus(190bc -120bc) was known as the father of trignometry. So, use of trigonometric formulas was also very common in ancient civilizations like egyptians, greeks, romans , persians and indians.
This is 100% the truth...the pyramids are spot on and almost every monument from that era all point to the four corners. I know there are some that dont and are believed by some to be pre the current poles but that's another discussion but a lot of them are 99.9% accurate. It's obvious from the start that this kid already doesn't believe and he is just presenting the facts as laze fair as possible to make them seem insignificant. You can't have some fat old white man telling the entire arab community that they are wrong. I've seen the dan Gibson documentary at least 15 times because I am western Muslim and I think his evidence is near irrefutable. The big hang up is that in Islam they consider their religion 100% pure from the moment gibriel or gabriel first spoke to Muhammad until now they say their text is unchanged therefore it is the only pure word because christianity which they acknowledge in a positive way still falls short because the original texts of Jesus were destroyed. So I get the hesitation but for non arab muslims we are open to any new evidence because we aren't tied down to dogma.. Dan Gibson saying they pray towards the black rock is nothing but colloquial at best, it doesn't matter... the kabba and the rock are in the exact same place.. I stopped watching at 5 mins because I can't stand the dance when it's clear someone is biased from the start.. they did a satellite linked study that showed all of the kiblahs pre the big change in 673 to 750 point towards Petra, not Jerusalem, not Mecca but Petra and it makes 100% sense
So I further listened to about half way and this kid is just reaching. It's just a pure hit piece. I get it I guess but what a waste of time to just be wrong... you have to say to yourself you're wrong and prove that the wrong isn't right before you can go with your final conclusion. This young man obviously can't do that..
There are alot of mosques around the Islamic world that have only recently corrected their qiblah people made alot of mistakes back in the day and specifically at directions i don't know if you read history or not but it was common for travelers to find themselves in a completely different area than they wanted to go while still using those tools
@@isseabdirahmanweheliye9010 So did all those early kiblas pointing to Petra precisely, make a mistake too? All of them made the same mistake? Obviously they knew the direction and it was Petra
I think some people underestimate how easily even an important city could be forgotten. It happened to Akkad. It happened to Ashur. It happened to Troy. And it happened Jerusalem itself after the Romans destroyed the second temple, until the Christians resettled it centuries later.
Religious people view history as an unbroken chain of events that is well recorded in their books (many of which were written decades or centuries after the fact). That's why subjects like archaeology can shed so much light, and often re-write history books.
Thank you for sharing. 😊 *Dan Gibson may have been correct ... or ... not.* (After all, Mohammad's nearest relatives lived in northern Arabia and the northern Hejaz ... Hashemites) *But your points are well-taken.* From what I have read, the location of Mecca was under control of the southern Arabs. The local Arabs living near Petra did make pilgrimages to that place well into the 20th century. I think that the Nabataeans[1] and the Nabataean Kingdom Kingdom[2a] are important in understanding both Petra and Mecca as well as Medina (Yathrib) Regarding Petra: The Nabataeans were southern Arabs who migrated northward and (eventually, during the Greek era of rule of the Middle East -- during/post-Alexander the Great) had the water system built in Petra (i.e. located in the modern country of Jordan) To successfully conduct business; the Nabateans also adopted the Aramaic language [Ancient Aramaic was not that different from the ancient Phoenician/Canaanite and ancient Hebrew languages] [Aramaic was also the lingua franca in western areas of the Achaemenid (Persian) empire) When the Greeks and Romans took over the area the lingua franca of the Levant and eastern Mediterranean was Koine Greek] During the era of Achaemenid (Persian) rule there was a rebellion[3] That the *Qedarites* [4] joined. The rebels were defeated and it appears that the Nabataeans took over the monopoly of the the spice trade (from the Qedarites) with Achaemenid Persia. Later the Nabataeans also had conflicts with the Greeks (i.e.Third War of the Diadochi 312 BCE)[4] The Nabatean people were mentioned in nearby kingdoms' correspondence during the 4th century BCE. The Nabataean Kingdom existed between the 3rd century BCE (i.e. circa 300 BCE) until 106 CE/AD when it's territory was taken over by Rome and renamed Arabia Petraea[5] Later (after the division of the Roman empire) under the Eastern Roman/Byzantine empire, the territory was known as Palaestina Salutaris (circa 300 CE -- 636 CE)[6] During the mid-Roman period; the Nabatean elite sold their territory to the Roman empire and re-located to Italy, leaving the peasants in the area (with an, eventually, broken-down water system in Petra). _________________________________________________________ 1.) *Nabataeans* en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nabataeans 2a.) *Nabataean Kingdom (3rd century BCE -->106 CE/AD)* en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nabataean_Kingdom 2b.)*"Emergence" (scroll down) of the Nabataean Kingdom* en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nabataean_Kingdom ""Aramaic ostraca finds indicate that the Achaemenid province Idumaea [i.e. Edom] must have been established before 363 B.C [363 BCE] after the failed revolt of Hakor of Egypt and Evagoras I of Salamis [Cyprus] against the Persians. The *Qedarites* joined the failed revolt, and consequently lost significant territory and their privileged position in the frankincense trade; and were presumably, replaced by the Nabataeans.[3] It has been argued that the Persians lost interest in the former territory of the Edomite Kingdom after 400 BC, allowing the Nabataeans to gain prominence in that area. All of these changes would have allowed Nabataeans to control the frankincense trade from Dedan [i.e. "Al-'Ula, Medina Province, KSA] to Gaza."" - Wiki article [i.e. *Greeks and early in Roman rule used boats from India and (what is now the country of Yemen) to* . *Al-'Ula -- >Petra --> Gaza* During the later Roman/Byzantine rule; boats went all the way to Egypt] 2c.) *"Emergence" SEE MAP @ article of the Nabataean Kingdom* en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nabataean_Kingdom MAP TITLE: ""Trading routes of the ancient Middle East, when Petra was the last stop for caravans carrying spices before being shipped to European markets through the Port of Gaza"" [No Mecca on this map] 3.) *Qedarites/ "Qedar" (name)* en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qedarites 4.) *The Antigonid-Nabataean confrontations (Greeks vs. Nabateans)* en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antigonid%E2%80%93Nabataean_confrontations 5.) *Arabia Petraea (106 CE - 630s CE)* en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arabia_Petraea 6.) *Palaestina_Salutaris (c. 300 CE - 636 CE)* en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palaestina_Salutaris
I'm quite sure in Islam there was a line that basically said if the qibla direction could not be determined, muslim could just pray to any direction they decided since everything is owned by Allah. I forgot which part of the Book said that. I think this is why not many scholars consider it a serious issue that older mosques seems to have different directions
yeah, the Quran, say's that Allah owns the east and the west. However, it is better to pray towards Makkah, but if you don't know the Qibla, then it is okay to pray in any direction.
What if the real Mecca was the friends we made along the way?
Islam is not a shonen🤣
Lol
Haha!
Shafiq Sha we confuse ourselves if we dont face the facts
@@Yassine_98 it does have harems though
When it comes to the way Muslims pray and you have to face in direction of Mecca, I thought as a young teen (Irreligious for as long as i can remember) it was pretty stupid and inconvenient. Later on in life it started making sense. On a personal level you feel connected to a wider Muslim world even when praying alone. On a religious level it makes sense to have something that centralize the faith (holy sites within lots of religions).
Also, very interesting video!
Shafiq Sha noo noo we confuse ourselves with ignorance and close minds ! Thats our problem azhab 50 explain it to me plz in quran
The way muslims pray even that isnt in quran ! Who made it up we sont even know , probably the non muslim arabs way of praying! Allah is the same word as well !
@OTTOMANS PEOPLE back box? It's called the kaaba
@@cemasikoglu9597 trying to b funny eh....?
Eerie Von no your just writing to write something answer me with knowledge so we can discuss
As an irreligious person, I really, really admire your ability to speak of your own faith in such unbiased, fact-based manner. Really great respect to you, man.
lol, muhamed worshipers are irreligious people
and you are a funny bot
@@worfoz "Pray to Muhammad" Lol yeah yeah lol false god jesus you never met a muslim dont you
@@AryaputraGemilang No, muslims do not exist anymore.
Muhamedans pray to muhamed and hois associate alla, like the innovation shahada tels them
Islam is about Isa´s God, muhamedansism is about muhameds alla.
Jesus is the real god of 2.5 billion christians, you hate that, but I respect religions
@John Xina You know, it is really a good idea to just shut up when you don't know anything.
😂😂😂😂 he is lying in a diplomatic way
“A revision of history, ON THIS SCALE, in that period is IMPOSSIBLE. I cannot stress this enough.” Mic drop. Thank you. If Petra were the Real Mecca, one would think the Byzantines would have mentioned that they were fighting the people and worshippers of the 'mythical holy shrine’ of Petra. There is this whole body of orientalists and now Evangelicals who keep coming up with really strange theories. They need to be called out publicly.
The Byzantines make no mention of the religion of the Arabs. There is a Byzantine document saying Mecca was in Arabia Patrea. So yes they mention Petra
They tried everything. Even made up strange idea such as Prophet Muhammad was trained by church. Lmao
@@wamulyati3605 🤣 they’re literally stupid
@@RedWolf75 can u provide a link or source to that document u claim? or are u just spewing nonsense?
@@RedWolf75 The suggestion that it was Petra and not Mecca is still wrong. The Quran itself refers to the Nabateans of Petra and condemns them for their polytheism (Quran 15:80-83). Why would the Quran refer to the Nabateans as a different community than the Quraish? It's because they are different.
I truly appreciate the improvements you made to your speech pattern. I was watching some of your earliest videos a while ago and you are a lot more understandable now =)
Greetings from Germany
@dorderre with more followers comes more responsibility...
WELL, ITS ALL THE MAGIC OF ARAB MONEY! IT DOES WONDERS!! 😄😄😄😆😆😆😁😁😁😎😎
I live in the U.K. most of the mosques don't face towards Mecca. The reason for this is quite simply:most mosques are converted existing buildings like community centres, houses, warehouses and more recently in central London, a Sega Funland. This was probably the case earlier. Inside the mosque we always pray towards Mecca, regardless of the direction of the building.
Dan Gibson investigated the early mosques and their foundation.
@monotfrommeccamonotfrommec1520 similar scenario to what it is now. A lot of mosques were built on the location of existing buildings. It was easier to convert an existing building than raze it and re build it. The Hagia Sofia is a prime example.
This is seen in places like the Hagia Sophia as well. In any case, many original mosques in Islamic lands aren't even fully oriented to Mecca. Premodern astronomical technique was good but not always perfect but has been resolved by aligning the prayer rugs with Mecca even if it makes the orientation within the building somewhat awkward.
@@adnaanu the Hagia Sophia verdict changed everything for Turkey 😂the almighty made nice turkey roast of turkey,, it was a joy.
@monotfrommeccamonotfrommec1520 not sure what you are referring to? What is the Hagia Sofia verdict?
Apart from that, the location of Petra shows that it has to be under Christian Byzantine rule and as far as I know, no other religion survived with a central locus under Byzantines except christianity, the Jews were kicked out of Jerusalem, all folks religion was destroyed so how come the pre-Islamic polytheism survived in the first place and the same goes for Islam, if Petra would have been the actual Makkah, the Byzantine would had nib it in the bud before it reached the Rashidun Era.
yeah I was thinking the same. It would then not only be a muslim conspiracy but a christian one as well. Why in the universe would they do that?
Arabia Petraea was a vassal kingdom of Byzantine ruled by Ghassanid, a Nestorian believers dynasty
@Siraj Haq your thinking is foolish and without credential value if it lacks the evidence and contradict the truth
Yes
@Siraj Haq Qureshis was a north arabian tribe , north arabians go back to a man called Adnan who lived in the time of Jesus , and the name Adnan was very common in the nabataeans civilization
i think after the destruction of the nabataeans kingdom by the romans in 100 AD , many tribes migrated to Hijaz one of them was Qureshis that migrated to Mecca
the Nabataeans were the descendants of Ishmael so no contradiction with the fact that the prophet is a descandant from Ishmael
I'm always fascinated by all of Religions history. I am an Atheist and study all aspects of religion ever since time immemorial but I respect all religious views to the highest degree. Salam Alaikum dear muslim brothers
I'm also an atheist, however, do not feel the same. Have you read the Quran, what do you think of 98:6, 9:5 or 9:29? Why should one respect a book that says such things against others?
Thanks I like atheists like you
@@theastronomer5800 context is a thing
@@theastronomer5800 You know, one day, you should grab a translation of the Quran and read it contextually, from beginning to the end. Instead of cherry picking verses that are part of a larger conversation and the point that the sura or that part of the sura is trying to make. None of the verses in their proper context say, what you think they are saying.
@@mrweirdguy5249 Of course, and I have three translations at home and have read the Quran twice, along with many hadiths and tafsir. Have you read what Ibn Kathir for example has to say about 9:5 and 9:29? The context seems rather clear to me.
Thank you for this video. I was very conflicted and confused after watching Dan Gibson. You really set the record straight. Thank you. May Allah Bless you. We need more muslims scholars/researches in the Islamic faith.
Dan Gibson is a Christian
Romans 3:7 - The New International Version (NIV)
7 Someone might argue, “If my falsehood enhances God’s truthfulness and so increases his glory, why am I still condemned as a sinner?”
If you were conflicted and confused by Dan Gibson then I'm afraid you have very weak iman. How about you learn about your deen from Islamic scholars instead of shayateen
@GTGforever turn to Allah now as Jesus did and all the prophets before it's too late
@GTGforever seriously stop embarrassing yourself and STFU. Lying to yourself is a mental illness
this theory isn't even believable and the moment he said there was a massive cover up, i knew he had no real evidence
@OTTOMANS PEOPLE Masjidil Haram in Makkah was not the first mosque bro
@OTTOMANS PEOPLE ok
@@bonar1211the first mosque was in Jerusalem.
@@Darkest_matter That's not correct.
The first mosque was indeed in Makkah.
"{Surely the first House ˹of worship˺ established for humanity is the one at Bakkah-a blessed sanctuary and a guide for ˹all˺ people.}" [Quran 3:96]
(Bakkah is another name for Makkah)
@@thewanderer101sthere's the qibla then masjid in medinah Al munnawarah. They prayed towards Jerusalem, and then towards Mecca.
Actually from an Arab Egyptian Muslim perspective,
I feel like many people specially foreigners deal with Islam as an ancient lost civilization and ancient book that we are trying to understand,
As if we found stones and temples and hieroglyphs writings and then we knew that there were pharos and ancient Egyptians and we try to understand their history,
They deal with Islam as the same thing,
Man if you are raised in a house and then left your family and lived somewhere else and a foreigner came to you with a million evidence and papers and witnesses to proof that your old house is actually not here it is in the other street you will not believe him because it's not an ancient temple, you lived here you had a family here.
Guys, Mecca and the qibla and the prophet life and the Kaaba are sooooo holy for us,
we know each detail of the prophet life in Mecca and in Madina,
No one ever can change this things even after all this years, or even after only 10 years,
you can't even say that Rome was in Germany then it was shifted to Italy,
because it is strong history for you,
and mecca is not history for us,
it is history and still present we are still living and praying facing it in all the globe from the beginning of Islam,
we are not trying to discover a lost civilization here.
These "researchers" are explaining questions that nobody ever asked.
@Saad Bin Masud historical flaws?
@Saad Bin Masud you're free to publish your own scholarly works in that field, let's see your arguments and evidence.
@Saad Bin Masud Eww disgusting, go away.
@Saad Bin Masud
Historical flaws like what ?!
Can you give me examples
Even here in Malaysia, a couple of mosques built 30 years ago were not accurately faced to Kaaba, not until recently ( 5 years ago or so) that the Qibla of the mosques were corrected after recalculation. And this happened at the time where gps exist, so it's totally understandable if the ancient arab miscalculated their Qiblat way before computer ever existed.
So in Indonesia
lol I find it funny that non-muslims find this misdirected qibla as "suspicious" and try to creates controversy over it, when us muslims are so accustomed to find carpets that set up at odd angle against the wall because the mosque was built in wrong direction.
Yes but early mosques analized by Gipson that pointed to the same spot(petra) that is not random. And that is the point and mistery of the research. Not that some face in other direction but that a group of early mosques faces petra. Why?
Memang dah ada pembuktian kaabah sebenar di petra
People still made mistakes in determining Qibla direction in modern era. The mosques in Indonesia (or Dutch-Indies as named in that era) faced a general West direction before early 20th century. The correct direction is North-West to a certain degree.
Ok, that's fine but what he quickly glossed over is the fact that Dan Gibson went and did the research in person and no one else has he says it's because 'it's not important' but it's because no one dares question Islam. If you know anything about any of the research into this this documentary is worthless at best. He's just using anecdotal information to deny it. Most likely he is an arab Muslim and to them their religion is 100% pure from start to finish zero mistakes and they could never admit they were wrong. He is wrong, I'm pretty certain of that. Dan Gibson isn't an anti Muslim, quite the opposite he loves Islam and the arab countries almost more than anyone I've seen from the west. He would have loved to verify Mecca if his research would have permitted. He is just a historian.
mosques in islamic spain also did this. apparently they held on the opinion that the general direction of prayer was sufficient to make the prayer valid instead if actually facing it
of*
allah is the east and west so quran says dont border about directions, god is everywhere, you dont earn something in positioning your body in this or that direction...
Javanese Kejawen Hindu Suryaman chopping his penis and bowing to desert incestuous tribes!
Shame shame
I'm a Christian, and I'm here bcz I like to see both sides of the story. You do have good points here, and I like that you have a more open-minded approach like when you say that there are obscure things in the beginning of the post Mohammad history. I think that we need more research from both sides as you mention it. I'll stay tuned for more videos since I'm interested on the Middle East, more precisely Iran.
Although that he needs to assume a massive cover-up over a long time and a large and diverse area, with _all_ books mentioning an important fact being changed, should ring all the alarm bells that you can imagine. History doesn't work that way; if someone needs to claim something like that for their revolutionary new theory to work, you can usually bet that it's wrong.
@@varana yeah, I think Christians and Jews can use the same argument, how their books could be changed as muslins claim without anyone noticing it, and when that modification could have taken place..., But here we are talking about Islam, so I'm not bringing that here. I have my pros and cons, since the Muslim faith was relatively new and I don't know if in every corner of the empire people were well aware of all things,at least the common people those that weren't able to read arabic. But I'm not adamant about it.
This explanation is as bad as the explanation provided for why Mary is confused with Mary the sister of Aaron and Moses, and why the quran says that Jews consider Uzzair as the Son of God. It is called clutching for straws.
Actually a city in the North completing down plays how importantance the Hadj is.
Your second point of rewriting history by later authors, draws into question the reliably of the recorded Quran.
tdwebste3
The Quran was supposedly revealed in 620, an entire Quran was discovered dating from 640 pretty much the same, twenty years is not a lot for the Quran to have been changed so much, and there have been Quran pages discovered at the time of Muhammad carbon dated back to his time, which are the same.
This makes sense because Dan Gibson doesn't mention anything about Madina, how could it be so far away from Petra? he claims Cave Ghar Hira was in Petra because of a crescent sign, but the crescent was actually made by the ottomans and not the muslims.
He also claims cannon balls were found in Petra. This is weird because he didn't find ANYthing about the placement or remnants of the Kaba there because of earthquakes and floods that wiped it out but somehow some cannon balls remain?
Also how is it that zamzam water still flows in Mecca and not Petra. Which doesnt make sense about safa and marwa.
There was no mention about structures being built apart of the mountains which repeatedly struck to me. Why is it that there are no mentions of tall structures in the mountains. There are reports of makkah bieng a small city, not with tall structures. the main attraction was the Kabah that drew people to it for pilgrimage. Yet the most important detail of the remnants of the Kabah are not mentioned in Dan Gibson's 'theory'.
He also claims that the city was huge with thousands of people. This is actually false. it was quite a small city with few hundred people or less as dr.Yasir Qadhi explains in more detail. Everyone knew each other at the time.
Also if you look at the sites of battle of Badr and Uhud it is nowhere near Petra, how is this?
For Muslims:
We know that the quran was never changed so as a spiritual point of view we dont accept his statement that the quran was altered from bakkah to makkah. This is also a theory and no real evidence is there accept to support his theory about Petra, all he says is its easy to change a baa to a meem. (arabic letters)
also a big mistake he made. Alexandrias books were not burned by muslims. It was by the christians. The muslim made great findings of the second great library in Persia when they conquered it. He totally flipped the history. the christians were having a war struggling to hold Rome when they burned the library saying they only need the bible, now he's saying the muslims did it.
(check Dr.Roy Casandra's research for details)
Im not trying to hate on any religion, just simply stating arguments and facts that were misinterpreted and altered.
@@fahmeedamohammad217 I was not aware that he thought Muslims burned Alexandria WHAT? No way is Dan reliable, this video proves that and also many other points such as battles fought around Mecca, and with graves, that date back to the prophet (PBUH) time.
Dan Gibson's theory can be easily disproved because he makes a lot of assumptions to fill in the gaps and TRY to reason with them.
But mainly he fails because he has poor knowledge of hadiths and gets many references to be outright false.
An arabic youtuber (who speaks english) refuted almost everything about his theory. From the hadiths he misinterpreted or got wrong, to the Qibla argument among others.
th-cam.com/play/PLEJMLhtoQWIRXK9o-hv6eyNXxUpEeb5X_.html
@@AFGsultanZ Check my reply above, it will help toy greatly.
@@silentbyte196 I will look into it 🙏
When I travelled to the UK from south Asia, I prayed towards the west instinctively for about a month until I realised that mecca is actually in the south east of England. Many of the early Muslims didnt even see a proper world map in their lifetime. So they may have prayed towards the direction where their instincts directed.
Arabs not muslims
you know the world is a globs right. so ultimately you would have been right. Just the longer way around lol.
The quran instructs us to pray anywere between the hemisphere which includes the qibla.
Taha Wasiq all muslims should face one direction but it has to be correct dont you think ?
@@shafiqsha9875 at this point you're just spamming the same thing on every comment. I dont think anything you say can be taken seriously
Your capability of non-bias astounds me. I don't know how I could think clearly enough to actually look into this and see a thousand people disparage something I hold so dear.
You're 100% right. For example, I'm a Christian, and I'm fascinated by Islamic history because I didn't learn much about it in school. I trust this guy a lot to give me an unbiased and genuine and scientific conclusion without letting his own religious views misguide his judgement.
@@shafiqsha9875 There is a refutation to this theory available on TH-cam
th-cam.com/play/PLW1vycCEWR7EhexQWeJrw0701YITXjxZe.html
I am not aware of any western leading scholar who has agreed with Dan Gibson's theory, but rather many have disagreed, primarily because he doesn't analise his sources and because he doesn't take into account how the early Muslims calculated the Qibla.
You are astounded much too easily!
@IIOO Im sorry what are you trying to say? I don’t understand
He has some liberal bias but that's fine
Even in my language ' Urdu" we have a idiom that goes like " Ap apna Qibla darust kijiye" which literally means " You should rectify your direction of Kabbah" and figuratively means " Leave the bad habits and do the right thing"
Thanks for this clarification. I grew up in a muslim household, I am not religious myself and I had the open mind to accept Dan Gibson's hypothesis, I even got excited about it. However, later I started to notice that he had missionary tendencies when he actually started diverting from archaeology and instead talking theology, and most of the times, as you have mentioned, took things literally and transliterated certain statements, that being an Arab, I knew were not accurately interpreted. For example, he seemed so desperate to prove to muslims that their prayers won't be answered since they're not pointing the right way, which having been raised up a muslim, I could easily debunk by saying that God takes the intention into account first. Also he projected a lot of things from the Christian way of crediting worship and assumed in Islam it would be the same. I sent him several emails asking him why he's trying to debunk Islam when there are innumerable theories of Jesus Christ not dying on the cross and others questioning his divinity. He never replied.
Trust me, there were more than a few charlatans like Gibson who masquerade under the guise of academia but instead are missionaries
That's why you should look for professionals with no agenda to defend.
@@glasgowblackchigowski6117 Gibson spent over 25 yrs studying in arabia and living through it. don't tell me you know more about the culture than he does. u should credit him for doing what muslims r not doing at all: RESEARCH.
@@cuteawais Gibson's research is as good as my failed school project, there are countless other researchers other than him who are more competent and don't share his views at all, that's historically speaking.
But if we come to faith, picking on myslims saying that they don't research their religion as much as the others do, that's big fat lie.
Muslims are most knowledgeable about their religion more than any faith in the world, we know our religion inside and outside, unlike mr Gibson's faith that makes him a lot more biased in doing more speculations than real research.
@Saad Bin MasudI studied at Jesuit school, I know what I'm talking about
Interesting hypothesis, I know the comments will be interesting as well.
Actually these missionary & atheists couldn't convince muslim.
Now they are trying to confuse muslims with many things.
@@shafiqsha9875 There is a refutation to this theory available on TH-cam
th-cam.com/play/PLW1vycCEWR7EhexQWeJrw0701YITXjxZe.html
I am not aware of any western leading scholar who has agreed with Dan Gibson's theory, but rather many have disagreed, primarily because he doesn't analise his sources and because he doesn't take into account how the early Muslims calculated the Qibla.
@@TahaWasiq He said Muslim pray to Black stones.
It said all about his knowledge about Islam.
@@shafiqsha9875 Virtually all of the western scholars, even the atheist ones disagree with Gibson. I just can't see a serious historian agreeing with such absurd theory
@Siraj Haq you make a pretty good point. Arabic was a backwater language just spoken amongst the Arabs who were tributaries of either the Byzantines or Persians, who know how much those dominant cultural influences seeped into the Arabs and therefore Islam unknowingly before the Islamization of Persia.
I am from Pakistan and many of the mosques I have been to don't directly face Mecca. Because, it simply doesn't matter. The direction we pray towards is not in the direction the mosque is facing, it's Mecca (Rugs are not aligned with the walls of mosque). Direction of mosque is not even an argument in the first place. It's such a random thing to pick and make a propaganda. Not to mention all the historical facts that were presented in this video.
Yes bro exactly what I was tbinking
They're like flat earthers, it boggles the mind.
Perhaps
@@judicatorhurayth1927 The funny thing is actually a Flat Earther and Quranist Sam Gerrans actually believes in this Petra Theory 😂
That is the weirdest guy i ever seen!!!@@Saif_VAGABOND_Talpur
@@Saif_VAGABOND_Talpur what a fool
@@----f Who?
Excellent arguments refuting Dan Gibson's theory. Another argument against it comes to mind based on your discussion of Umayyad rivalry with the Abbasids. Would not Shia Muslims have also criticized moving the Kaaba from Petra to Mecca? The absence of any such criticism speaks volumes to me.
Keep up the good work. I subscribed, and, God willing, will help on Patron.
Patreon.
Shia religion was created in the third Islamic century. 😏
@@Irfan--Khan Without lies Islam dies.
@@worfoz •
That's your personal opinion. 😏
Do you know that the Qarmatians stole the Black Stone for thirty years and transported it to Al-Ahsa, which is east of Saudi Arabia, and then ordered the Arabs to go on pilgrimage to it?
What do you think was the response of the Arabs?
The Arabs ignored their demands and made a pilgrimage to Mecca because the land is holy, understand?
Thanks for addressing this. I was somewhat convinced by this theory and have been waiting for a solid rebuttal, which you’ve delivered. شكرا
@Al Mudarabah wow a biased video you yourself uploaded
SALaM, SHLAMa, SHLOMo, SHALoM, NAMASTe, PEACe.
Quran [Last Testament]: 15:80-83
The people of the Rock also rejected the messengers. We gave them Our revelations, but they turned away from them. They used to carve homes in the mountains, feeling secure. But the Shout struck them in the morning.
Petra
The Nabataeans worshipped Arab gods and goddesses during the pre-Islamic era as well as a few of their deified kings... A stele dedicated to Qos-Allah 'Qos is Allah' or 'Qos the god', by Qosmilk (melech - king) is found at Petra. Qos is identifiable with Kaush (Qaush) the God of the older Edomites. The stele is horned and the seal from the Edomite Tawilan near Petra identified with Kaush displays a star and crescent, both consistent with a moon deity. It is conceivable that the latter could have resulted from trade with Harran. There is continuing debate about the nature of Qos (qaus - bow) who has been identified both with a hunting bow (hunting god) and a rainbow (weather god) although the crescent above the stele is also a bow.
Nabatean inscriptions in Sinai and other places display widespread references to names including Allah, El and Allat (god and goddess), with regional references to al-Uzza, Baal and Manutu (Manat). Allat is also found in Sinai in South Arabian language. Allah occurs particularly as Garm-'allahi - god dedided (Greek Garamelos) and Aush-allahi - 'gods covenant' (Greek Ausallos). We find both Shalm-lahi 'Allah is peace' and Shalm-allat, 'the peace of the goddess'. We also find Amat-allahi 'she-servant of god' and Halaf-llahi 'the successor of Allah'.
Thanks for doing an open-minded, as unbiased as possible analysis of Islamic history! You'd make the Muslim scholars of the Golden Age proud.
He didn't address any of the actual points of Gibson. Why do the mosques point towards Petra to within an error of only 2.9 degrees? Gibson's work is also supported by linguistic, epigraphic, numismatic and trade route studies over the last few decades - they all point to northern origins of Islam.
@@theastronomer5800 hmm. Good points. And given that Islam is highly influenced by Christianity and Judaism, it would not be surprising to have a Northern origin like the other two abrahamic faiths.
Regardless, just the fact that he's willing to explore this topic impresses me. Modern Muslim thinking is much too conservative, and this is on the border of sensitive as far as mainstream islamic topics go.
@@maisa5943 That is very true. I have seen too many Muslims dismiss any historical evidence as soon as it contradicts their traditional narrative. I find the history very fascinating. Have you read the books by Dr. Puin and Dr. Ohlig by any chance, super interesting! (Early Islam, and The Hidden Origins of Islam). They contain many contributions by scholars in different fields. I find the early Islamic coins very interesting myself! Jay Smith did a decent survey of them if you're have never looked into them (he's a Christian apologists, so you can ignore the few times he talks about Jesus, but his historical summaries are good to listen to). Cheers!
Dan Gibson has 120+ videos on this subject, (=EXTENSIVE RESEARCH) now muslims are all about WISHFULL THINKING concerning the DEMOLISHING MISTAKES IN ISLAM, but they should realize a 10 minute video, is really not going to answer the EXISTING PROBLEMS in this case about PETRA/Mecca....do more research muslims, get your brains active
"A bold idea that seems to shake the faith of more than a billion people just gets picked up by people without much further research" Damnn this is true for all religions tbh!
Agreed
m.th-cam.com/video/HFr2QH1Hm5A/w-d-xo.html
m.th-cam.com/video/jkWVcn3_fBk/w-d-xo.html
Well, dan gibsons theory is very good too, im convinced
@@braham_1137 th-cam.com/play/PLEJMLhtoQWIRXK9o-hv6eyNXxUpEeb5X_.html
As an arab with much globalisation influence, I got back into religion because of english videos like this, jazak allah khair
Shame.
@@expressdotpc-on you😂🫵🏻
@@expressdotpc that is how it's with Islam the more you fight us the more we grow and get stronger so keep fighting us as much as you could I really appreciated 😁
@@Ashraf-HriraWtf are you on about???
@@expressdotpc your hate for the truth
Excellent. Clear. Methodical. Point-by-point. A super rebuke.
I must say I found both Dan Gibson and the cambridge academic very convincing. As a sunni, born Pakistani, who spent some early years in Saudia....I cannot fathom how Mecca could have possibly existed as a city which the Holy Quran describes. Even more is how would Hazrat Hussain go to Koofa from Mecca in 28 days...that is somewhat possible from Petra but not from present day Mecca. Dan also talks about a city called Becca which is near Petra which could have been Mecca. Kaaba , is shape of cube which was a ubiquitous structure found in Arabia ......Muslim intelligentia and their prized books were decimated in 1200 by the Changez Khan....there has never been a voice of reason or dissent after that holocaust.....everything following 1200 -1300 has been tutored under state supervision of Ottomans until 1900's when Middle eastern fiedoms started to assert themselves. The more people find it religiously difficult to accept alternate reality of Mecca, the more I am convinced they have something they feel insecure about.
you are correct. Do you have some material I can read on about Changez changing things
The Islamic "Golden Age" ended because of the crystallisation of Sunni Islam. The Islamic world cannot "go back to reason" as long as Sunni orthodoxy breathes. So one might ask, why was there an age of reason in Iraq and Persia for 300 years. Well, it is precisely because of how cosmopolitan the society and the intellectual classes were. People then and there could actually read Ancient Greek and Persian (and in the 8th/9th centuries, Sanskrit too!!). Islamic legal scholarship was more of a cottage industry, which in today's Near Eastern Studies scholarship is magnified beyond belief. Once the Ulema moved out of their cottage industry role to become the dominant side-kick or dominant full-stop institution in the Islamic world, reason and creativity and culture/arts were soon to die out. There is a serious contradiction in calling this Golden Age "Islamic" given that Islam (whatever Islam often means) played the most central role in extinguishing free thought.@kekkek2852
@paulthomas281 Did you learn about this 'end of reason with Sunni Islam' from E Michael Jones? If not where, as I'd like to learn more. Thanks
Biggest hole in the Petra theory is the zamzam well.
One can't shift a spring well from Petra to Mecca.
Zamzam well was pre Islamic n historically documented
And where is there mention of MIRACULOUS zam zam well in quran...both cities had well ,.. petra had many more wells just as hadith and quran mentioned
@@anandgupta4298 exactly. zam zam is not a source of evidence. as there is no mention for it in Quraan.
@@anandgupta4298the safari Marwa mountains, which are in Mecca and not Petra.. the documented trade between Yemen. (More likely to be Mecca than Petra) And the fact that Muhammad (pbuh) went NORTH to medinah Al munnawarah, NOT SOUTH.
@@Darkest_matter safa maria? Which is not even the size of two storey building lol u call that a mountain...they were written to be so huge that it surrounded the city and there was a crack in it through which people used to pass...it is in petra dan gibson also explained this
@@Darkest_matter muslims are blind folded when someone gives literally each n every proof...petra is mecca is not theory its proven through all means i.e, archeology,scripture analysis,historical mentions,etc
Petra was at the edge of the Roman Empire, home of Muhammad’s clan. Religious thinkers gathered at the edges of the empire escaping orthodoxy, Roman had a long history of inventing religions, to cement the army together and control the countryside cheaply. I find it hard that Petra wasn’t the intellectual heart of the original movement and going on Christian religious sites Mecca was chosen later as being better for cash flow and safer from annihilating attack, Petra being severely damaged by earth quakes
Lol, Mecca is in Mecca, not Petra, since the Prophet was born in Mecca, not Petra, the Quraish have always been the rulers of Mecca, and the Prophet migrated to the north (Medina), Medina is north of Mecca, not the south, And Petra was under Roman rule, while Mecca was a tribal city state
Lol, Mecca is in Mecca, not Petra, since the Prophet was born in Mecca, not Petra, the Quraish have always been the rulers of Mecca, and the Prophet migrated to the north (Medina), Medina is north of Mecca, not the south, And Petra was under Roman rule, while Mecca was a tribal city state
And when establishing the state of Medina, the Meccans always wanted to attack, until finally they lost, and entered the territory of the state of Medina, then they came into contact with the Romans on the northern border,
And when establishing the state of Medina, the Meccans always wanted to attack, until finally they lost, and entered the territory of the state of Medina, then they came into contact with the Romans on the northern border,
We actually do have a few very early non Muslim sources mentioning the Kaa'ba and it's location in Arabia. Read the Khusistan chronicle written in 650s CE.
And many early islamic inscription flourish in Arabia..
And petra is very silent..
There is a masjid(mosque) in Makkah with a rock inscription slab dating back to the early 600s... I visited the masjid & i read the rock inscription.
@@yakmi1116 i don't know about that, but Hejaz is very flourish on islamic inscription..
@@ekadria-bo4962 because hejaz have huge mountains and big cities like in Taif & Thaqif & have large fertile cities oasis like Madina & it's close to Tihama & Yemen..... There's no doubt that nowadays Makkah is the same as the pre-islamic Makkah.
@@yakmi1116 there is no pre.-islamic makkah
As an arabic speaker who read Dan gibson work, the guy made numorous mistakes translating some words in arabic he didnt account for vowel per example he translated a certain word حِجر to حَجر which both look the same other than the vowel but have totaling different meaning one means a rock the other means Lap.
so im not that surprised of the inconsistencies of his work pretty genuine i guess but still Wrong
Finally someone said it, I am an Arab too and noticed it myself
Yeah, u know that knowledge so speak up LOUDER bro, dont be shy.
Directions are determined by scientific approach not Arabic vowels 🤨🤨🤓🤓🤓
You can't change history, just as you can't say Mecca is the place of Adam and hundreds of prophets, whereas history never records that place existed before the 7th century.
listen, there is not enough water source, there will be no civilization, period.
@@Martin-lv1xw for people who think earth is flat, it might
Thank for this. I'm a student of Islam and Middle Eastern studies from Jerusalem, Israel. And you convinced me of the inconsistencies of Dan Gibson's hypothesis.
Avi lipkin did much better works than him ,he's a jewish anti islam
@@inongbalee3092
Who's Avi Lipkin? What are you talking about?
@@NP1066 he's a jewish anti Muslims just like I said ..he wrote the book return to Mecca... he did lots of academic research for this matter and its far more convincing than Gibson one ..such as who built the kaba,
@@inongbalee3092
You're presenting him as an anti-muslim and you expect me to like or be interested with what I'm hearing? That's a turn-off right away.
As a Jew myself I'm against people who are anti-muslims. I wouldn't dedicate my studies to Islam if I didn't like and respect muslim people and Islam.
@@NP1066 my emphasis is even though hes an anti islam he still presenting reliable academic reports on his research which later he compile into a books ..his research started from moses exodus so it's cover Petra, though his conclusions are differ with muslim stand point but it's not an issue
MALAY SUBTITLES Part 4 of 4
13:31
terdapat banyak kiblat. Namun, bagi sesiapa yang biasa dengan budaya Arab, ini adalah perkara biasa.
13:37
Orang Arab selalu menggunakan kiasan seperti ini. Ini bukan metafora yang asli,
13:42
sebenarnya dalam Al-Quran. Dalam ayat 148 bab kedua Al-Quran, dikatakan,
13:47
"Semua orang berpaling ke arah mereka sendiri [doa]"
13:50
Maksudnya, semua agama mempunyai kiblat masing-masing. Ini datang dengan segera
13:56
setelah pertukaran kiblat menjadi Tempat Berkumpul Terlarang yang diperintahkan dalam ayat 144.
14:03
Mengatakan bahawa kita adalah orang yang mempunyai kiblat yang sama bermaksud kita menganut agama yang sama.
14:08
Pada masa itu, istilah Muslim tidak digunakan. Sebenarnya, petikan dari al-Tabari yang digunakan oleh Dan Gibson
14:13
tidak lengkap. Baris seterusnya mengatakan, "Kami bukan orang Turki atau Daylamites"
14:18
Maksudnya, "Kami bukan non-Muslim". Metafora digunakan lagi beberapa halaman di mana
14:23
seseorang berkata kepada saudara ibn az-Zubayr, “Kamu adalah orang yang, dalam satu pagi, membunuh
14:28
tujuh ribu orang yang berpaling ke arah kiblat. " Bukan kiblat KAMI tetapi Kiblat.
14:35
Ini adalah metafora yang tidak difahami oleh Dan Gibson secara harfiah.
14:40
Pada akhirnya, terdapat banyak misteri mengenai Islam awal. Banyak fakta telah menyebabkan banyak perkara
14:45
soalan yang tidak dijawab. Walau bagaimanapun, hipotesis yang dikemukakan oleh Dan Gibson
14:50
tidak sesuai sama ada. Mustahil untuk menutup skala ini. Lebih senang dibayangkan
14:56
sejarawan awal membesar-besarkan perincian mengenai Mekah daripada membayangkan semakan semula
15:01
sejarah pada skala luar biasa ini. Walaupun semua ini masuk akal dalam dokumentari,
15:07
apabila anda melihat dunia Islam yang lebih luas pada masa itu, tidak ada cara untuk ini masuk akal.
15:12
Ini sebenarnya adalah keluhan yang saya ada untuk kebanyakan orang di internet. Orang sering memilih
15:16
menyusun sekumpulan fakta dari internet tanpa cuba memahami konteksnya. Sebuah acara
15:20
tidak berlaku sendirian, ia dipengaruhi oleh dunia di sekitarnya. Semasa anda cuba memeriksa sama ada
15:26
cerita itu sahih, anda periksa persekitaran dan konteksnya untuk melihat apakah itu benar-benar mungkin. Malangnya,
15:32
idea berani yang seolah-olah menggegarkan kepercayaan lebih dari satu bilion orang baru saja terpilih
15:36
oleh orang tanpa banyak kajian lebih lanjut. Jumpa awak lain kali.
15:40
Sekiranya anda ingin mengetahui lebih lanjut mengenai sejarah Islam awal, Muslim Sepanyol dan Khilafah Abbasiyah,
15:45
lihat senarai main di saluran saya. Jika anda suka saluran dan jika anda mampu,
15:49
janjikan satu dolar atau lebih di Patreon untuk menyokong saluran tersebut.
tkasih!
@@fnulnu6 Sama-sama!
Quran 2:177 ?
I'm so glad I found this, bringing some much-needed objectivity on this subject. Your fairness and well-documented evidence is a good reminder: No matter what one's personal feelings are about a subject as sensitive as this, as a religion it must be respected.
Additional objective information th-cam.com/video/kQshvbdCBnc/w-d-xo.htmlsi=42XZNN2ZOrltfJWh
Your closing statement alone single-handedly put the entirety of Gibson's research and works invalidated and cremated to dust. My respect and honour to you in helping out the doubts to whomever question about it. 👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻👍🏻👌🏻
I love him for that
@khairularchi
You don't seem to understand that Mecca is a theory, just like Petra is theory. If Petra does not work, this does not mean Mecca works. Both can be non-starters. Mecca being the setting for many of the Qur'an's surahs is impossible. I don't accept the Petra thesis, and I certainly don't accept the Hijazi Mecca either. This video does absolutely no discussion of 7th century history.
SALaM, SHLAMa, SHLOMo, SHALoM, NAMASTe, PEACe.
Quran [Last Testament]: 15:80-83
The people of the Rock also rejected the messengers. We gave them Our revelations, but they turned away from them. They used to carve homes in the mountains, feeling secure. But the Shout struck them in the morning.
Petra
The Nabataeans worshipped Arab gods and goddesses during the pre-Islamic era as well as a few of their deified kings... A stele dedicated to Qos-Allah 'Qos is Allah' or 'Qos the god', by Qosmilk (melech - king) is found at Petra. Qos is identifiable with Kaush (Qaush) the God of the older Edomites. The stele is horned and the seal from the Edomite Tawilan near Petra identified with Kaush displays a star and crescent, both consistent with a moon deity. It is conceivable that the latter could have resulted from trade with Harran. There is continuing debate about the nature of Qos (qaus - bow) who has been identified both with a hunting bow (hunting god) and a rainbow (weather god) although the crescent above the stele is also a bow.
Nabatean inscriptions in Sinai and other places display widespread references to names including Allah, El and Allat (god and goddess), with regional references to al-Uzza, Baal and Manutu (Manat). Allat is also found in Sinai in South Arabian language. Allah occurs particularly as Garm-'allahi - god dedided (Greek Garamelos) and Aush-allahi - 'gods covenant' (Greek Ausallos). We find both Shalm-lahi 'Allah is peace' and Shalm-allat, 'the peace of the goddess'. We also find Amat-allahi 'she-servant of god' and Halaf-llahi 'the successor of Allah'.
When I was in Alexandria in Egypt, I was always told to give my back to the sea and turn a little to the left; that way, I should face Mecca, but who knows, I might have been facing India, hahaha.
@OTTOMANS PEOPLE yeah ik only the sauds and some tribe in saudi Arabia are allowed to go inside
@Estex There are apps that tell you the directions. But as el muqqadima said, while qibla is vital, we usually tend to face a general direction that should technically make us face Mecca if I am in an unfamiliar environment. But for example, if you are in my home and ask me about qibla, I should know where it is since it is my home after all. Basically, it is the sense of direction that guides you.
@Estex what my school teach is muslim face mecca for praying but the actual kiblat is ur sincerity to face kiblat not the mecca itslef, mecca is kinda symbolization to help us show and rationalize our faith. I mean praying can take us at least a minute and many people more than 5 mnute, when praying on ship or plane we can't ask the captain to not making any directional change so we stay facing mecca
I have a question.... if you face the Kabah anywhere in the World and then turn backwards meaning the Kabah is in the back... You still face the Kabah technically...
@@CharDhue I mean you are metaphorically facing the place where god technically dwell but god dwells everywhere
My argument is that in a large dessert of Arabia there is only one Zamzam well situated in Mecca which is present here since around 1200 to 1600BC. You dont find such source of water even at 1000 miles around Mecca.
It meant a lot to the dessert men and for those who travel in dessert. It is just impossible that this place been ignored by all historians. Since this hub was not thickly populated hence everyone has called in their own name.
Quresh were traders and they dont fight, they have no warfare only swords indicating they just had occasional skirmish but never participated in war, hence did not mentioned long in history. They did not knew how to dig trench. Salman farsi was from Iran and lived rest of his live in Madina. So people did know what is Mecca and where it is located.
Nice response. Great for on-going discussion. Thank you. Your comments about Spanish Qibla's are valid, but Dan Gibson only proposes his idea as a possible explanation. As for the cover-up, if Islam (based on leading figures of the Arab conquest) was systematized under the Umayyads and revised under the Abbasids as the glue that held the empire together, then a cover-up is easily acceptable.
The Egyptians were happy to chop of the faces of previous Pharaohs.ie why is there a later head on the older body of the Sphinx?
Just found your channel linked by Let’s Talk About Religion, your topics look amazing and I’m so excited to find this channel! (I also had to comment on this video specifically because I named my cat Petra after this amazing location.)
Petra's photos on my Twitter! ASAP!
Al Muqaddimah I sent some over! :)
@@AlMuqaddimahYT If you Don't answer me then I am gonna Stop watching your Videos,my question is that did Aurangzaib regret Killing his Brothers ? Because he must have known that doing so was a Major Sin in ISLAM! Hence did He or Did he Not????? Please do answer don't be rude and arrogant!!!!!
@@AlMuqaddimahYTjahnam is calling brother
The reason it cannot be Petra are:
1) They would have to transport Jabal Al Nour (mountain of light) complete with cave to Petra.
2) Jabal Thawr ( Mount Thor) complete with cave to Petra.
As well, other than muslims in these empires, there were muslims in abysinia or ethiopia or habesha, in turk areas were abbasid caliphate didn't reach, new muslims in Indonesia. Like, somebody would have noticed at least, this hypothesis is nonsense
I want you to make a series about Spreading Islam In Nusantara Archipelago (Indonesia, Malaysia, Singapore and Brunei) it will be very Interesting cause spreading Islam in that region is even more peaceful than how Islam Spread in the Middle East
Sufi merchants!
9 sufis from two periods of times I believe, started from abbasid era
How Islam spread in middle east is based on tyranny of Ummayyad and Abbasid. The struggling to bring back as Rashiduum Caliphate is impossible and still today!
If Dan Gibson was an ex Hamas and ex Al-Qaeda member ,he would have convinced a lot of people.
The Greek historian Diodorus Siculus writes about Arabia in his work Bibliotheca historica, describing a holy shrine: "And a temple has been set up there, which is very holy and exceedingly revered by all Arabians".[41] Claims have been made this could be a reference to the Ka'bah in Mecca. However, the geographic location Diodorus describes is located in northwest Arabia, around the area of Leuke Kome, closer to Petra and within the former Nabataean Kingdom and Roman province of Arabia Petraea.
Interesting can you provide the source 🤔
@@umaryusuf537 "Diodorus Siculus writes about Arabia in his work Bibliotheca historica"
@@adamroodog1718 interesting I wonder what city he’s referring to coils be Petra could be something else we have way to know. Also I looked at Dan Gibsons claims and there are a lot of issues with a lot of his points from him Mis translating words to using fabricated sources to not being fully fair according to his own judgement. With that his claim isn’t strong enough and I don’t by the fact that Petra was the first Qibla. What do you think?
@@umaryusuf537 to tell you the truth umar i dont know and i dont know if anyone truely will know now after so much time.
the qibla of the early mosques seems like there is something to it. what that something is again i dont know.
the saudis remove anything we could learn about early islam like aisha's house, now a car park and public toilet, the graves of the companions of the prophet, the contents of the kaaba and they were even going to destroy the green mosque during the first gulf war.
the cave of hira looks man made to me. especially the roof.
the etymology of the word mecca is something like in phonecian is ruined, old arabic is santuary, and narrow, which also seems to fit with petra.
in the koran there are alot of traders and merchants. i think its described as the mother of all cities with roads leading north south east and west. that doesnt really fit with mecca. if you were going to jedda for example you would have to leave the plateau go down into the desert to get to mecca and then up again to get back on the road to jedda.
ive often thought that if i was islamic and was on the one haj of my poor life would i go to mecca or petra? my answer to myself was i would go to mecca but i would also visit petra just in case. haha. im sitting on the fence
dan gibson may or may not be self serving, or blinded by what he has found or even just plain wrong. alot of people who do things like this focus on their discovery and then see it everywhere in everything. but he brings up enough questions that need answers whether he is wrong or not.
im interested in the truth. im not religious and not trying to say islam is wrong, im just trying to understand a very interesting part of history. all religions i have studied have this period after the main man dies and before the rules of the religion are set that i find fascinating. budha for example didnt want anyone to pray to him. he wanted the people to focus on learning from his teachings. but people being people made him into a god. at his temples which are called a stupas they paint the face of budha but without ears so budha can never hear the people praying to him. christianity was for jews only until paul returned from corinth with money from the new converts. and now maybe mecca isnt where it is supposed to be. or the inscriptions on the al aqsa mosque dont appear anywhere in the koran, whats up with that. its just something i find really interesting
i hope you and your family are happy and healthy and you had a wonderful eid with them recently
best of luck
adam
@@adamroodog1718 interesting analysis you have. Yeah Dan Gibson does bring up some interesting questions but as far as I’ve seen most have been answered there’s a 30 part series on TH-cam by a Muslim TH-cam who address many of Dans points I cab link it if your interested in watching it
I've flipflopped on this idea often. First I was convinced, then I wasn't, then I watched more of Dan Gibson's videos and I became convinced again, then I researched even more and finally today I honestly am skeptical. A lot of what Gibson says makes sense but I find it hard to believe that such a radical change would go unnoticed. The explanation he gives that that it was and he cites some texts about one of the final tabi3een saying the prayer is being forgotten but that's not the same as an entire city. Can you imagine being an inhabitant of Petra and allowing your community to forget that the city is holy? Also by the time of Muhammad Petra was almost entirely Christian as well, not pagan. But I don't know, the issue is that both sides of this debate have religious axes to grind, Dan is a Christian and associates with apologists, its difficult to find a secular viewpoint. The secular scholars I know of however haven't really paid much attention to this debate.
That why some orientalist said Islam is actually one of branch of christianity, and some said that created by some christian priest
Did Meccans frozen in time,did they just go extinct hahahah
The owner of this channel is Syawish who is atheist one side ,islam another.
so that explain this nonsense.
Hadiths mentioned all the details of Mecca,if Petra is Mecca,where is Zam Zam Well? Where is Safa Marwah where the Hajar wife of Abraham were running up n down with Ishmael in her hands,wheres this and that valleys? If Petra is Mecca why are archaeologists all affirmed the library located outside Kaabah was a house that Muhammad was gave birth at,and theres measurements of his house size and companions house sizes and nothing like Petra.
Islam has seperate history on Petra,not Muhammads history.
Hadiths are made by chain.of narrators.individuals who had history of lying or such and narrates a hadith will make the chain weak.So we take the chains that are mostly of holy ppl.and individually judged by the community no biasness.
Kaabah was damaged not destroyed.
Sauds will smack this Paki Syawish who is torned between being athiest n muslim.and being a wack ass historian.
I feel like there is an incredibly modern assumption in thinking it would be noticed.
@@Kuudere-Kun exactly. Not many original muslims to begin. No many maps existed. Many muslims died in war etc. The. Petra got excinct by earthquakes, nobody lift there anymore. The stone had already been moved to Mekka...
Dan Gibson's hypothesis is very weak. i right away dumped it when I learned about it. The language spoken at Petra is Aramaic. If Dan Gibson is correct the earliest quran should have been in Aramaic. Yet the quran had always been written and recitated in Arabic - with the dialect of Mecca.
Pre-Islamic Arab were very good to pointing directions. It was easy to pointing Petra or other city at that time... #peace 😊
As strange a theory as it is; it would kind of make sense that Abraham would build the Ka'bah in Petra rather than Mecca - as it's much more closer to the other areas associated with Abraham and the places he and his sons travelled too.
Avi lipkin and anis sorrosh did research on this in order to refute kaba was built by Abraham, the research stagnant with conclusions it was built by Jewish setlers.. And it's not Petra but the current one (today Mecca)
Yeah made more sense if Abraham made ka’bah in petra than in mecca because he left his wife hagar and his son. No way they can survive in a small desert town without somewhere to plant a wheat or palm tree to eat. And in islam it was described being a big city as traders pass by to collect water from zam zam well, but if many trader passes by then at least it will be mentioned in a map or something
Actually these missionary & atheists couldn't convince muslim.
Now they are trying to confuse muslims with many things.
@@muhammadridhosinuraya
Lol, your words "in Islam" is about the later period where Mecca developed as City, but not yet in Hagar and Ismail time.
Wtf I live in Jordan and this is my first time hearing about this
@Port Sap no it's not
@@daddydrphil17yearsago26 says the guy that didnt live in Jordan.
I am descendant of Muhammad through Henry the Fourth of Navarre.
Man, that is a weird conspiracy theory.
Nah there people that early Muslims were Christian
This Theory of Dan Gibson only works if according to him and his ilks Arabs removed the mentioning of Petra Qibla from their Islamic Sources!
Allah itself is an outcome of conspiracy theory
@@adwaitvedant3297 wot?
@@adwaitvedant3297 this then leaves the Arab Christians then in a real dilemma? 🤔
I'm Jewish and when I first heard this theory I found it kind of intruiging, but when looking more into it from the perspective of Jewish history that I am familiar with, Muhhamad in the Hijaz makes way more sense. If Muhammed was in Petra durring his lifetime he would have been living in Christain Ghassasinide Kingdom and witnessed the Heraclian revolt and the Persian Byzantine war in Palestine. A facinating part of history that a man with muslim Aramy in Petra would have no doubt gotten involved in, had he been there. But he wasn't.
Him being in the Hijaz in a region that had been part of the Jewish Hiymyar kingdom that fell to Aksum just prior to his lifetime leaving the Hijaz independent without a strong cetral authority matches his story much more closely. Also Islam to me seems much more similar to Judaism than Christianity, had Islam been born in Petra it would have been more Christian and less Jewish in worldview, I would expect.
There is a reference to the Roman Persian war of that time in the Koran. Also the Ghassanids were a different sect of Christians than the Romans. Mecca was not on any trade route. Muhamed fled Petra and went to Medina.
Actually you see some Islamic schools of beliefs like Alawites having a lot of similarities to Christian beliefs. I would say it is due to their location because they are one of the earliest groups of Syrian and Lebanese Muslims (or even Levantine Muslims). It is hard to know with alawites because a lot of people spread rumors about them.
Stupid, before the Prophet migrated to Medina, the first group of Muslims who migrated were told to go to Abyssinia, the closest region to the south, if you think Dipetra is very far away, and there are no Quraiys tribes in Petra,, the Quraysh tribe has always been in Mecca, and the first Qibla of Muslims was Al Aqsa, initially the Qibla of the Prophet's mosque faced north (Al Aqsa), then when Allah ordered it to face the Kabbah, i The direction changes to the south, yes south to Mecca, Medina is located north of Mecca, not south, so when you turn the Qibla you go south, while Petra is north of Medina, it's very far. And that's roman territory@@RedWolf75
Stupid, before the Prophet migrated to Medina, the first group of Muslims who migrated were told to go to Abyssinia, the closest region to the south, if you think Dipetra is very far away, and there are no Quraiys tribes in Petra,, the Quraysh tribe has always been in Mecca, and the first Qibla of Muslims was Al Aqsa, initially the Qibla of the Prophet's mosque faced north (Al Aqsa), then when Allah ordered it to face the Kabbah, i The direction changes to the south, yes south to Mecca, Medina is located north of Mecca, not south, so when you turn the Qibla you go south, while Petra is north of Medina, it's very far. And that's roman territory@@RedWolf75
And during the conquest of Mecca, if Mecca was in Petra (Roman), it was the same as fighting against Roman, But no, during their conquest against the Quraysh rulers of Mecca, this independent territory was not controlled by non-Arab rulers, and when the prophet moved to Medina he stopped first in the city of Taif, Taif is east of Mecca, not Jordan, LOL
It is mentioend clearly in the Quran Surah al-Baqarah 144
"We have seen the turning of your face towards heaven. So We will turn you towards a direction that will satisfy you. So turn your face towards the Sacred Mosque. And wherever you may be, turn your faces towards it" the sacred mosque in Mecca
This reminds me of the hypothesis that early Arab ideological conflict was an extension of the rivalry between the Ghassanids and Lakhmids. Just wish we knew more specifically.
watch the channel "sneakerscorner" it will open up ur mind about easily islamic history. gem of a channel
@@cuteawais lier propaganda christen machinery channel
@@izharehaq it gives u facts with proof. That’s all I need. If u don’t want to believe it that’s ur weakness. U can’t accept the truth
@@cuteawais Don’t speak about truth when you write ‘ur’ instead of ‘your’.
9:44 You point out that Mecca had no agriculture to speak of. Ok, so why does the Quran make what are obviously references to local agriculture if it were written in Mecca. This was one of the most damning observations by Patricia Krone. It easy to take on Gibson, he is very partisan of Petra as the original Mecca, but there is a lot of other evidence that exists that Mecca was not in the Hejaz, whether or not it was Petra. You point out that he is the only person who has done this in depth study of kibblah direction. Well, there has been plenty of time to restudy these sites and truely refute his work. Why has it not been done? Afraid of what it will show?
Also, when you comment about the mosque in Pakistan pointing towards a Mecca, you glossed over that fact that it was built in the period that Gibson identifies as one where the kibblah directions begin to change, so that is not a good example.
What reference to local agriculture you speak of? As for the Kiblah, the video was polite. Muslims, other than the first 30 years, never really had just one unified state. There was always small areas out of control. And during the abbasid period, there were two simultaneous states with equal influence and power - facing the same kiblah.
As for the actual direction, it is simple. People were guessing. Here’s a story, Our local masjid was built in 1990s, and sometime in the mid 2000s, some one brought a compass and we changed the Kiblah.
This is very common. As a matter of fact, because in the Quran there’s a verse understating the important of precision in terms of facing the Kiblah, Muslims historically were content with just facing the general direction of hijaz, the region housing the Kabah.
On point 💯
F.E. Peters in his Book "The Hajj..." (Princeton university 1994) quotes an inscription found on the makam Ibrahim in Mekka. People at that time couldn´t read it until they found a jewish scholar, who translated, that this place belongs to "Zebaot" - a name of God frequently mentioned in the old testament. This points to Mekka being a holy site to Judaism many centuries before the advent of islam. (The inscripion was probably in old hebrew script, which in the time of the Kaaba restoration few people could read)
Apparently it was. There was some theory suggests that Moses the great Prophet of Jew once visited Arabia, studied under Jethro and most likely visited the Becca (or Ka'bah)
I take issue with what the author claims are Dan Gibson's "conclusions". All Mr. Gibson did in his video was present hypothesis, which is far different than a conclusion. What explanation do you have regarding such things as peoples, geography, and vegetation in the Quran referring to things more closely found in the Petra area than in Mecca? The author acknowledges that some things may be lost and exaggerated in early histories. Ok, what explanation do you have for what Mr. Gibson observes?
How do you explain the total lack of archeological evidence of anything in Mecca that predates 800 AD?
th-cam.com/play/PLEJMLhtoQWIRXK9o-hv6eyNXxUpEeb5X_.html
Also
2nd century Mecca
The historic consensus in academic scholarship has long been that "Macoraba", the place mentioned in Arabia Felix by Claudius Ptolemy, is Mecca.[24] More recent study has questioned this association.[25] Many etymologies have been proposed: the traditional one is that it is derived from the Old South Arabian root M-K-R-B which means "temple".[25]
Detective o will made a really good playlist for all of this. You should check it out and you should watch all the videos as it goes in parts of course.
The burden of proof is upon you and not upon those who believe it’s Mecca. It is totally impossible for Gibsons ‘hypothesis’ to be true.
@@AaronHafeezGFX Actually, the burden of proof resides entirely with Islam. They are the ones making outrageous historical claims. Dan Gibson challenges that, and the muslims don't like being challenged.
Bruh there's evidence that Mecca was a hub for religions and pilgrimages before Muhammad (like it says in the Qur'an) and it also said Muhammad smashed the idols that were inside the Kaaba. Now, you don't see idols in mekkah but you still see stone statues in Petra. This, Mecca is Mecca.
This channel is seriously underrated!!! I seriously recommend doing more collabs because more ppl need to find you! (It's how I found you. your collab on your did mohammad exist video)
Question: are there any mentions of Mecca - by Arab or non-Arab sources - prior to the 8th century? Why does Mecca not show up on any pre-10th-century maps? Why are there no 7th-century coin mints there, or any archeological support for such an (allegedly) ancient city?
In human record, there is one from 6th century. The charter of medina or medina treaty. There's also one from the beginning of time, the Quran 48:24
@@wantrevize Ibn Ishaq's Sirah, supposed to be dated at early 8th century is the earliest source of the charter. But it is also lost writings, referenced by Ibn Hisham in the 9th century. Earliest attestable writing about the charter is then dated at 9th century. Same problem for the Abû 'Ubayda writings about the charter, referenced by Tabarî in the 10th century. How do you respond to that ?
So , tell me where is cave of Hira , cave of thaur in petra? How muslim goes to ethopia in first hejrat ?
The cave of Hira is mentioned in the new testament.
Not to agree or disagree with Dan, but he presented very compelling evidences. You chose to dismiss them and treat them as light weight but did not succeed in discreting them all together in my opinion. The early days of Islam, like you said, remain a mystery, so many things could have happened. If researchers put their mind to it, a lot can be discovered. However, many like you will interpret it as an attack on the religion. Do you actually believe that the stories we have today of the early days of a any given religion are true? Or at least fully true? Of course when a religion becomes an empire, it helps to have a common narrative, therefore a purge of older texts is possible, something you assert that is impossible. I don't know about your credentials but you do make bold statements. At least Dan Gibson presented evidences that can be put on the table and discussed. If anything, I find the notion of Petra or any other city to the north of mecca to be the actual mecca to be an exciting hypothesis that merits further exploration. Unfortunately, we all know how virtually impossible for many scholars, especially Arabic or Muslim ones to look into their religious background with a critical eye. Fundamentalists (of all religious backgrounds btw) just don't like it when someone tells them this and that that does not fit their dogma.
wait what ? the guy presented several counter arguments that made sense. what do you mean he didnt challenge them ?
I swear you folks just believe what you want to believe
This video provides horrible counter arguments like a Karen. Dan Gibson,s evidence is taught in most universities , even in Africa where I studied and the Muslim students where furious but evidence beats narratives which this video promotes. A Muslim has to lack clear critical thinking skills to believe anything this video says as maybes.
It appears that Dan has presented a very concocted version of the second Islamic civil war. Muslims just don't just pray facing towards the Kaaba but they have been doing another thing at that direction from that time to now, they bury their deceased facing towards mecca now Dan has responded to it in a video but his statements and arguments seem not to satisfy me also after ibn Zubair was killed Hajjaj still had crushed the rebellion for a time and during this period even in agony he would have demolished the Kaaba and shifted it back to Petra as we know Hajjaj did demolish the Kaaba built by ibn Zubair and reconstructed it by raising the entrance door and changing the little rectangular shape to a more cubic shape and it would have been the perfect opportunity for him to rebuild it and shift back to Petra instead he rebuilds it at the same place.
Actually these missionary & atheists couldn't convince muslim.
Now they are trying to confuse muslims with many things.
@@shafiqsha9875 It´s called scientific hypothesis. That is how we inch closer and closer to truth
Thanks for presenting another aspect of this theory.
I think Dan Gibson has given more and advance research into his work than you did. I am happy with more brains adding up on the table.
Islam is not an arabic culture please, Meccca has no architecture that dates back for over 1k years? I think there is a lot of historical problems with early Islam and it is so difficult to asked because when you do asked or research you are seen to be challenging the word of Allah.
I think for now Dan research is still holding and needs further research than the things you stated here. Thank you friends and let's continue to look seek the truth whiles we practice Islam in peace.
First Gibson’s theory is slightly being misconstrued. There’s far more to it, and using the modern perceptions of whether modern Muslims face the black stone or the Kaaba is a non sequitur, particularly given what you said about the early Islamic history being inconsistent with modern thought. There are references to the black stone being followed by Arab worshipers for centuries across different civilizations, and even the early Islamic historians mention several Kaabas. Also as an historian you should know that in the early Islamic centuries and after scholarship wasn’t lead by the Arabs, it was lead by the Persians and other people’s with advanced civilizations who’s lands were being occupied. That excuse about what the early Muslims were not capable of doing because they’re Bedouin is disappointing. His theory is far more complex than the directions the Qiblas are facing.
@Kek Kek yeah I completely agree, and I don’t think he meant to purposely misconstrue Gibson’s theory but the arguments he uses are self defeating. For example saying Bukhari and Ibn Hisham are unreliable would throw modern Islam out of the window, including Muhammad. That cannot be a defense of the standard narrative, especially when asking for contemporary sources, while ignoring that the Islamic tradition in the first century doesn’t have contemporary sources. I personally don’t believe Petra was Mecca either, but mainly because I don’t believe the Quran was referencing a single place nor was there a sole writer to the Quran. What I appreciate about Gibson is that he’s attempting to fill in the massive gaps that clearly exist in the fiction about a caliphate that took down two of the largest empires in history while having constant internal conflict. Saying they were Bedouins isn’t good enough anymore for the historical inaccuracies.
My understanding is that Dan Gibson made his presentation and encouraged scholars to examine it. The book burning and selective recompilations by the Ummayads and Abbisds alone to me is a history worth examining, even if his qibbla and Petra ideas are misguided. Even in context, the person may have been replying diplomatically: agreeing that they are both followers of Mohammed, saying let’s not fuss over the direction they face for prayer.
I watched the docunentary of Dan Gibson about Petra and as Muslim, Qur'an is the best guide and we should not question it. Peace be upon us all
Hahaha sure buddy.
Dan is fool
SALaM, SHLAMa, SHLOMo, SHALoM, NAMASTe, PEACe.
Quran [Last Testament]: 15:80-83
The people of the Rock also rejected the messengers. We gave them Our revelations, but they turned away from them. They used to carve homes in the mountains, feeling secure. But the Shout struck them in the morning.
Petra
The Nabataeans worshipped Arab gods and goddesses during the pre-Islamic era as well as a few of their deified kings... A stele dedicated to Qos-Allah 'Qos is Allah' or 'Qos the god', by Qosmilk (melech - king) is found at Petra. Qos is identifiable with Kaush (Qaush) the God of the older Edomites. The stele is horned and the seal from the Edomite Tawilan near Petra identified with Kaush displays a star and crescent, both consistent with a moon deity. It is conceivable that the latter could have resulted from trade with Harran. There is continuing debate about the nature of Qos (qaus - bow) who has been identified both with a hunting bow (hunting god) and a rainbow (weather god) although the crescent above the stele is also a bow.
Nabatean inscriptions in Sinai and other places display widespread references to names including Allah, El and Allat (god and goddess), with regional references to al-Uzza, Baal and Manutu (Manat). Allat is also found in Sinai in South Arabian language. Allah occurs particularly as Garm-'allahi - god dedided (Greek Garamelos) and Aush-allahi - 'gods covenant' (Greek Ausallos). We find both Shalm-lahi 'Allah is peace' and Shalm-allat, 'the peace of the goddess'. We also find Amat-allahi 'she-servant of god' and Halaf-llahi 'the successor of Allah'.
Average muslim when facts are presented to him...Quran changed as Qibla changed
@@anandgupta4298the Qur'an isn't the bible
i can't get the free trail
The requested URL was not found on this server.
Jazak allahu khair, here's my sub.
Your counter arguments are actually very poor..."researchers didn't really think the problem was serious enough to collect data on it"
Let me guess: You watched Engineer Muhammad Ali Mira's video debunking the documentary. Supreme Video btw, love your content as always!
@Samsun Nahar here you go. th-cam.com/video/JXMxnRueheU/w-d-xo.html
no i havent actually
@Siraj Haq just a harmless guess brother chill out.
@Samsun Nahar There is a refutation to this theory available on TH-cam
th-cam.com/play/PLW1vycCEWR7EhexQWeJrw0701YITXjxZe.html
I am not aware of any western leading scholar who has agreed with Dan Gibson's theory, but rather many have disagreed, primarily because he doesn't analise his sources and because he doesn't take into account how the early Muslims calculated the Qibla.
NO HE DONT, IF U ARE HIS FAN THATS OKAY BUT DONT THROW HIS NAME IN COMMENTS TO GAIN VIEWERSHIP
All you had to do is read about prophet Abraham stories to know where is the real mecca, he's the one that literally built the Kaaba. I honestly don't understand how someone could believe Gibson if they knew about the story of prophet Abraham, no other place fit the location in the story perfectly than Mecca.
I always thought it was weird that the Bible describes Hagar settling with Prophet Ismael by a well in the desert. There are a group of people who live in the desert claiming to be descendants of prophet Ibrahim's son Ismael living by a well and celebrating finding the well, the Christians are like no way they are actually children of Ibrahim.
its like the British admit to losing a colony in North America there are people in North America celebrating independence from Britain and you come to the conclusion that they do not know what they are doing they should be celebrating independence from China and this is a massive cover-up
I can give you a very recent example of a nation collectively forgetting a truth about their past, even only a couple of generations ago:
Ask any European woman if they were aware that many European women until 1900's wore headscarves in public life, for example in Britain it was considered inappropriate for a woman not to. Let's ask them and see if the majority is aware of that fact.
Political and social authorities can be much more powerful than we think is possible in shaping collective memory, identity and worldview.
there is nothing ambiguous about the history of women's fashion in Europe
Headscarves stopped being worn far before 1900s in certain regions of Europe
@@sabrina1380m
The point stands that what is considered ”primitive, oppressive, and backwards” by the west has always been something they themselves instituted as well not long ago
Doesn't matter whether or not the majority is "aware" of it - there is ample evidence of the fact. The example you give is not the equivalent of a systematic erasure of evidence. The American south is a better example of a deliberate attempt to suppress and erase history, with their attempt to literally whitewash the civil war and make it about a noble cause rather than slavery. They literally did rewrite the history books - and yet the evidence still exists that the civil war wwas about slavery. So the idea that the history of Mecca being Petra could so totally be suppressed - no, I don't buy that.
@@sabrina1380m you are comparing a cultural behavior changing over a long time to religious fundamental position changing overnight and yet no one reacted to it how is that even possible? People were coming to hajj every year from all over the world and changing the position would be a point of interest for them no?
@@isseabdirahmanweheliye9010 anything can disappear from the mind of the people with enough doctrine and fear, e.g: Tiananmen Square, Japan’s atrocities in WWII
Speaker's Corner on TH-cam debunks this many years ago 😂 but it's nice to have nice version to debunking it again😹
Not really, hehe.. xD
@@avtaras
I don't know? They(Muslims in speakers corner) cite the specifics to the point. Christian trolls run away for lack of information. On their part.
haha..sneakers corner debunked speakers corner a few months back. go watch it. Petra is the real Mecca. You're welcome
@@cuteawais
Except they didn't? The evidence shown was debunked on the spot
@@cuteawais Christians say that Isaiah 42 is not about Muhammad, because the Sela is not sela of medina but rather in Edom which is Petra. Now, they have to accept prophet Muhammad since they believe Dan Gibson, lol.
I don’t get the controversy, we know Jesus wasn’t born in Bethlehem (if we accept that he did exist, which most scholars do), they just changed that to fit the Old Testament prophesy. Doesn’t materially change what Christian’s believe if he’d been born in Nazareth instead. Might have been an issue for some Jewish converts, but nowadays what’s the difference?
Why and how could people build a very important shrine in the middle of no where while no one could live nearby to maintain it? Why would people consider a barren land as the holy place? Why was the Forbidden Area needed to be installed when nobody wanted to go there because it was so unimportant? The "cover up" could succeed might be the same reason as you mentioned "people just didn't take qibla as seriously as we do today".
Thank you so much for making this video. I have been following Gibson and his interesting hypothesis. However I stopped following him since I have realized he is biased against islam and his lack of understanding of Semitic culture. I am glad you shed light on his interesting hypothesis.
We need more videos like this that takes strict scientific take of early Islamic history.
SALaM, SHLAMa, SHLOMo, SHALoM, NAMASTe, PEACe.
Quran [Last Testament]: 15:80-83
The people of the Rock also rejected the messengers. We gave them Our revelations, but they turned away from them. They used to carve homes in the mountains, feeling secure. But the Shout struck them in the morning.
Petra
The Nabataeans worshipped Arab gods and goddesses during the pre-Islamic era as well as a few of their deified kings... A stele dedicated to Qos-Allah 'Qos is Allah' or 'Qos the god', by Qosmilk (melech - king) is found at Petra. Qos is identifiable with Kaush (Qaush) the God of the older Edomites. The stele is horned and the seal from the Edomite Tawilan near Petra identified with Kaush displays a star and crescent, both consistent with a moon deity. It is conceivable that the latter could have resulted from trade with Harran. There is continuing debate about the nature of Qos (qaus - bow) who has been identified both with a hunting bow (hunting god) and a rainbow (weather god) although the crescent above the stele is also a bow.
Nabatean inscriptions in Sinai and other places display widespread references to names including Allah, El and Allat (god and goddess), with regional references to al-Uzza, Baal and Manutu (Manat). Allat is also found in Sinai in South Arabian language. Allah occurs particularly as Garm-'allahi - god dedided (Greek Garamelos) and Aush-allahi - 'gods covenant' (Greek Ausallos). We find both Shalm-lahi 'Allah is peace' and Shalm-allat, 'the peace of the goddess'. We also find Amat-allahi 'she-servant of god' and Halaf-llahi 'the successor of Allah'.
Its a tantalizing concept.
It would be worthwile to challenge it with archaeology. Just because Petra deserves its history in Islam, whatever it is.
Some things that I also am curious about. The stone was placed in the Qaba by Ismael, but Abraham and Isaac were buried in Hebron. Its the burial place of Aaron. It was the place moses drew water from a stone. Would in not have been more logical that Ishmael would have been in that area close to his family?
Petra was also a trading hub for the insence trade at the time. Muhammed may have been there a lot just as a part of life.
Petra was like a central location for the many tribes and nations to gather at and was the capital of the nebateean kingdom.
Its worth learning more. It does not devalue where the Qaaba is if it has merit.
I watched dan Gibson's doc and read some of his stuff and it really seems he found something groundbreaking. His answers and research findings are not vague but is concrete with all the evidences still there in petra.
@kingleonidas7594
Exactly. The arguments in Qur'anic Geography have much more evidence than just qibla directions. I doubt the author of this video actually read his works.
Zam zam water where is near mecca.. That is one of the signs that makkah is the real one located in ksa.
Zamzam is not even mentioned in the Quran. The word zamzam is hebrew btw. And the zamzummim tribe were in northwestern arabia
@@bilosan97 we muslim believe firmly that is the makkah wherein prophet Abraham together with his son ismael as his helper built the makkah.. Whether that zamzam water mentioned or not the fact is that is near makkah where angel Gabriel opened it..
@@silhouettepelican289 Thats what you want to believe. You just have cognitive dissonance
@@bilosan97 what about safa and marwa mounts that are mentioned in the quran and a part of the hajj ,this is known in makkah today, also where is madina (YATHRIB) which is also mentioend in the quran into consideration in this dumb conspiracy . no where. this petra BS is a fantasy that is just as bad as saying rome is london.
@@bilosan97 research well before making any personal opinion..it is clear that you are anti Muslim..be careful because your god Jesus is a Muslim and prophet only .
Thank you for your take on that theory. It sounds absurd.
I just wanted to note a couple of things: Mecca, while still being in a dry climate, it is in a valley "بوادٍ غير ذي زرع" and could have some green surfaces like palm trees, minding that was after Hajar and Ismail were moved to there. Olives would have been weird, though. Also, "Muslimeen" was mentioned during the lifetime of Muhammad (peace be upon him) so the term was actually used, but it is well known that facing our Qiblah is a major unifying character that is likely used to remind someone of the unity of Muslims.
SALaM, SHLAMa, SHLOMo, SHALoM, NAMASTe, PEACe.
Quran [Last Testament]: 15:80-83
The people of the Rock also rejected the messengers. We gave them Our revelations, but they turned away from them. They used to carve homes in the mountains, feeling secure. But the Shout struck them in the morning.
Petra
The Nabataeans worshipped Arab gods and goddesses during the pre-Islamic era as well as a few of their deified kings... A stele dedicated to Qos-Allah 'Qos is Allah' or 'Qos the god', by Qosmilk (melech - king) is found at Petra. Qos is identifiable with Kaush (Qaush) the God of the older Edomites. The stele is horned and the seal from the Edomite Tawilan near Petra identified with Kaush displays a star and crescent, both consistent with a moon deity. It is conceivable that the latter could have resulted from trade with Harran. There is continuing debate about the nature of Qos (qaus - bow) who has been identified both with a hunting bow (hunting god) and a rainbow (weather god) although the crescent above the stele is also a bow.
Nabatean inscriptions in Sinai and other places display widespread references to names including Allah, El and Allat (god and goddess), with regional references to al-Uzza, Baal and Manutu (Manat). Allat is also found in Sinai in South Arabian language. Allah occurs particularly as Garm-'allahi - god dedided (Greek Garamelos) and Aush-allahi - 'gods covenant' (Greek Ausallos). We find both Shalm-lahi 'Allah is peace' and Shalm-allat, 'the peace of the goddess'. We also find Amat-allahi 'she-servant of god' and Halaf-llahi 'the successor of Allah'.
From the heart. It feels good to see a Musilim dismisse/disprove an "attack" on his fate by strength of argument instead of an outburst of violence. This video is truly special.
Geographical references in the Quran relate to north-western Arabia in the region of Petra.
Qiblas of Mosques pointed towards Petra til until 724 AD.
Starting with 822 AD all mosques quiblas pointed to Mekka (Arabia). Mekka (Arabia) does not fit the descriptions in the quran. Mekka (Arabia) was not situated on a major trade route. No archeological record in mekka (Arabisa) before 700 AD. Plants mentioned in the quranic mekka did never grow in Mekka (Arabia). Petra was a pirlgirmage-center before and in the times of early islam. Attacks of the Mekkans on the city of Medina are reported to have taken place from the north (which makes no sense given that Mekka (Arabia) is in the south of medina. Reported distances in islamic reports make sense when related to Petra.
This explanation is as bad as the explanation provided for why Mary is confused with Mary the sister of Aaron and Moses, and why the quran says that Jews consider Uzzair as the Son of God. It is called clutching for straws.
A lot of questionable implications came to my mind as I was reading your comment.
If the so called "outburst of violence" is the first thing that came to your mind when thinking about the question "How do Muslims usually reply to this sort of stuff?", then you really need to change your expectations.
There are maaaany videos like these made by Muslims, especially when they have to refute or reply to certain allegations and what not. This video is not special, but it's still very good nonetheless, that's the only thing you're right about.
To be fair I see Christians, Jews, and Hindus do this. I shared a video explaining the location where people think the third temple is, is not an accurate location. A bunch of fundamentalist Jews lost it. This is a problem of religious nationalism period. It exists in all forms there is Muslim nationalists on the internet (Mohammed Hijab types), Christian nationalist (Eric Hovanah types), Jewish nationalist types (actually if anything I think a lot of pan-Judean organizations represent this well), Hindu Nationalism (Lev Patel especially when he says all abrahamic faiths are just Zoroastrian), etc. People being competitive over religion is a problem and those organizations/“influencers” expedite the problem.
Fun fact :- All major religion started in asia.
I mean sort of there is that whole timeline of Judaism happening in ancient Egypt. Ironic seeing as some in Israel wanted Ethiopian Jews to reconvert or did not believe Yemeni Jews (two of the oldest Jewish communities). Meanwhile they did not question any Ashkenazi communities.
No mosque in the world is build facing ka’bah , it’s not a requirement, though some may have build. But in all mosques prayer are performed facing in the direction of the ka’bah in Makkah this is the most important thing.
What Dan Gibson doesn't understand is, Kabbah is the symbol the Moslem or Islam will be gathered, the Moslem pray to Qibla or Kabbah direction is to unite Muslims. If a Moslem lost or made a journey and doesn't know Qibla or Kabbah direction they still can do the pray. It's not the right or wrong direction, but the important thing is as a Moslem should remember to their one God (Allah) and do that by praying. So Dan Gibson theory "Have Muslims Been Praying In The Wrong Direction" well unfortunately does not affect us as Muslims. Sorry to say but Dan Gibson throwed away moneys for his useless research.
he got funded from......yk what i mean
For the first two hundred years, mosques were orientated toward Petra, not toward Mecca. Somebody, after two hundred years switched it to Mecca.
Lol this is a lie. We have very old masjids dating back to the time of the Prophet. Search masjid al qiblatayn in somalia. 2 qibla since it used to be towards Jerusalem but got changed to Makkah during the prophets lifetime.
@@duckgoat7570 Thank you for attempted rightmakin.
Article in wikipedia doesn't say how the mosque was dated. All I know is that there has been much deception since the very beginnin so, without bein an intensive scholar on the topic, I have no way to validate nor to invalidate any particular statement
I am not interested to spend much time findin details, but would rather see a finished presentation by someone else. Therefore, without bein willin to spend the time, I cannot discuss it with you in a way that might bring, to you, satisfaction.
However I will warn you against "conformism" (which is horizontal or social) versus actually askin "God" for the answer (vertical), which he promised that he will give if we ask.
Dan Gibson dedicated a lifetime to these discoveries. The more astonishing thing is that islamists in the middle age (or whatever period that was) decided to change facts, erase evidence and started to live by lies ... and they still do to this day. Apparently to avoid the pain of being wrong and deceived and lied to and telling lies for hundreds of years.
But is that the reason for the violent nature of islam?
SALaM, SHLAMa, SHLOMo, SHALoM, NAMASTe, PEACe.
Quran [Last Testament]: 15:80-83
The people of the Rock also rejected the messengers. We gave them Our revelations, but they turned away from them. They used to carve homes in the mountains, feeling secure. But the Shout struck them in the morning.
Petra
The Nabataeans worshipped Arab gods and goddesses during the pre-Islamic era as well as a few of their deified kings... A stele dedicated to Qos-Allah 'Qos is Allah' or 'Qos the god', by Qosmilk (melech - king) is found at Petra. Qos is identifiable with Kaush (Qaush) the God of the older Edomites. The stele is horned and the seal from the Edomite Tawilan near Petra identified with Kaush displays a star and crescent, both consistent with a moon deity. It is conceivable that the latter could have resulted from trade with Harran. There is continuing debate about the nature of Qos (qaus - bow) who has been identified both with a hunting bow (hunting god) and a rainbow (weather god) although the crescent above the stele is also a bow.
Nabatean inscriptions in Sinai and other places display widespread references to names including Allah, El and Allat (god and goddess), with regional references to al-Uzza, Baal and Manutu (Manat). Allat is also found in Sinai in South Arabian language. Allah occurs particularly as Garm-'allahi - god dedided (Greek Garamelos) and Aush-allahi - 'gods covenant' (Greek Ausallos). We find both Shalm-lahi 'Allah is peace' and Shalm-allat, 'the peace of the goddess'. We also find Amat-allahi 'she-servant of god' and Halaf-llahi 'the successor of Allah'.
Did you not watch the video? It gives a perfect explanation as to why that is
The defeat of Al Zubair is logic..because Hajar Aswad is one of the important thing that should be with kiblah
Even today there are many mosques in Pakistan that are built incorrectly I use the qibla campus and many of our mosques have difference of minor degrees but those minor degrees could mean praying towards medina or yemen or who knows maybe jerusalem 😂
Yeah, because earth don't spread like carpet and spike it with mountains.
@@sudirosumbodo5385 ofcourse
the mosque in my neighborhood has the same story. I have just realized it faces yemen. And not mecca
@@Char444 the mosque in my neighborhood has the same story too, it faces Washington DC!
Explain how a football player accidentally scores 20 own goals in his career before he strikes his first goal
I did a quick Wikipedia research about Dan Gibson and according to the Wiki article, Gibson is a self-published author with no educational or academic background. If anyone knows more about this, please comment below.
He is dumb I have also watched his video,, complete ignorance
What about his arguments and evidences?
The reason why some prepaid people want Petra not Makka to be the beginning of Islam is that they want simply to say that Muhammad learnt from the Romans, Christians and others all what he brought in Quran since Makka had nothing at all.
I would tell them Islam will triumph. Islam has been fought since day 1 and Islam always wins.
this kinda seems like an emotional response in disguise, tbh. i'm not judging tho. anyway, now that you mentioned explicitly the exact location of the first Qibla, and the fact that some of us here can indeed read and understand Quran in arabic, i was wondering, could you just enlighten us where in the verse [2 : 144] or any other (related) verses for that matter, it is mentioned that the first Qibla was in Jerusalem?
ps. ofc, this is a rhetorical question. we already know the answer: it's not mentioned anywhere. or maybe, this is just another "metaphor" that the rest of us don't understand after all!
I think you missed the actual facts. You provided no evidence. Gibson provides evidence. You failed trying to do peer review. When you engage in peer review you must guide the student with factual evidence to review. You failed at that . I would say your comments are baseless.
Well done.
Funny thing, I was in Petra with two of my three younger sisters and a guest four years ago, when I heard the athaan. Just listening to it made our visit all the more special and spiritual. ☺️ ❤️
Macca =petra
bacca=Jerusalem
The kiss of truth is occupied Jerusalem now, . Where is the Sacred Mosque? Reading Surat Al-Baqarah knows the location of the Sacred Mosque in the city of Jerusalem.
This is the secret of Palestine
SALaM, SHLAMa, SHLOMo, SHALoM, NAMASTe, PEACe.
Quran [Last Testament]: 15:80-83
The people of the Rock also rejected the messengers. We gave them Our revelations, but they turned away from them. They used to carve homes in the mountains, feeling secure. But the Shout struck them in the morning.
Petra
The Nabataeans worshipped Arab gods and goddesses during the pre-Islamic era as well as a few of their deified kings... A stele dedicated to Qos-Allah 'Qos is Allah' or 'Qos the god', by Qosmilk (melech - king) is found at Petra. Qos is identifiable with Kaush (Qaush) the God of the older Edomites. The stele is horned and the seal from the Edomite Tawilan near Petra identified with Kaush displays a star and crescent, both consistent with a moon deity. It is conceivable that the latter could have resulted from trade with Harran. There is continuing debate about the nature of Qos (qaus - bow) who has been identified both with a hunting bow (hunting god) and a rainbow (weather god) although the crescent above the stele is also a bow.
Nabatean inscriptions in Sinai and other places display widespread references to names including Allah, El and Allat (god and goddess), with regional references to al-Uzza, Baal and Manutu (Manat). Allat is also found in Sinai in South Arabian language. Allah occurs particularly as Garm-'allahi - god dedided (Greek Garamelos) and Aush-allahi - 'gods covenant' (Greek Ausallos). We find both Shalm-lahi 'Allah is peace' and Shalm-allat, 'the peace of the goddess'. We also find Amat-allahi 'she-servant of god' and Halaf-llahi 'the successor of Allah'.
I think the most crucial thing Dan talks about is how Mecca is described and how Petra fits the bill. Secondly, how come all the (remaining) mosques in first 100 years face the same direction (if direction was not that important). I think it requires some open minded approach and research on all of us as humans. (Just so you know i am neither theologian nor historian, my opinion doesn't matter at all, i just watched two videos and found the topic very interesting).
The direction matters but there is a 45 degree tolerance. And if you totally miscalculate it even if you did your best, that is also tolerated.
@@attilaseyfullah8522
The kiblas pointing to Petra are precise, no 45 degree bs tolerance
@@SaintSkanderbegus you call aan who fakes being a Muslim for personal gain a saint. Your opinion has no value.
No it’s not Petra. You had thousands of people that performed Hajj each year and no one mentioned “For some reason the trip to Mecca was 1,000 miles more than I expected” c’mon
Brother, your way of presentation is really great. But , you are wrong in one thing , pre-Islamic Arab merchants were really good at pointing directions, they used positions of stars , stone and thread and also poems . So directions of those old quiblas could not be unintentionally wrong.
Also Hipparcus(190bc -120bc) was known as the father of trignometry. So, use of trigonometric formulas was also very common in ancient civilizations like egyptians, greeks, romans , persians and indians.
This is 100% the truth...the pyramids are spot on and almost every monument from that era all point to the four corners. I know there are some that dont and are believed by some to be pre the current poles but that's another discussion but a lot of them are 99.9% accurate. It's obvious from the start that this kid already doesn't believe and he is just presenting the facts as laze fair as possible to make them seem insignificant. You can't have some fat old white man telling the entire arab community that they are wrong. I've seen the dan Gibson documentary at least 15 times because I am western Muslim and I think his evidence is near irrefutable. The big hang up is that in Islam they consider their religion 100% pure from the moment gibriel or gabriel first spoke to Muhammad until now they say their text is unchanged therefore it is the only pure word because christianity which they acknowledge in a positive way still falls short because the original texts of Jesus were destroyed. So I get the hesitation but for non arab muslims we are open to any new evidence because we aren't tied down to dogma.. Dan Gibson saying they pray towards the black rock is nothing but colloquial at best, it doesn't matter... the kabba and the rock are in the exact same place.. I stopped watching at 5 mins because I can't stand the dance when it's clear someone is biased from the start.. they did a satellite linked study that showed all of the kiblahs pre the big change in 673 to 750 point towards Petra, not Jerusalem, not Mecca but Petra and it makes 100% sense
So I further listened to about half way and this kid is just reaching. It's just a pure hit piece. I get it I guess but what a waste of time to just be wrong... you have to say to yourself you're wrong and prove that the wrong isn't right before you can go with your final conclusion. This young man obviously can't do that..
There are alot of mosques around the Islamic world that have only recently corrected their qiblah people made alot of mistakes back in the day and specifically at directions i don't know if you read history or not but it was common for travelers to find themselves in a completely different area than they wanted to go while still using those tools
@@isseabdirahmanweheliye9010
So did all those early kiblas pointing to Petra precisely, make a mistake too? All of them made the same mistake?
Obviously they knew the direction and it was Petra
I think some people underestimate how easily even an important city could be forgotten. It happened to Akkad. It happened to Ashur. It happened to Troy. And it happened Jerusalem itself after the Romans destroyed the second temple, until the Christians resettled it centuries later.
Religious people view history as an unbroken chain of events that is well recorded in their books (many of which were written decades or centuries after the fact). That's why subjects like archaeology can shed so much light, and often re-write history books.
Mecca was completely UNKNOWN before 1300 ago
Thank you for sharing. 😊
*Dan Gibson may have been correct ... or ... not.* (After all, Mohammad's nearest relatives lived in northern
Arabia and the northern Hejaz ... Hashemites) *But your points are well-taken.* From what I have read, the
location of Mecca was under control of the southern Arabs. The local Arabs living near Petra did make
pilgrimages to that place well into the 20th century.
I think that the Nabataeans[1] and the Nabataean Kingdom Kingdom[2a] are important in understanding
both Petra and Mecca as well as Medina (Yathrib)
Regarding Petra:
The Nabataeans were southern Arabs who migrated northward and (eventually, during the Greek era of
rule of the Middle East -- during/post-Alexander the Great) had the water system built in Petra (i.e. located
in the modern country of Jordan) To successfully conduct business; the Nabateans also adopted the
Aramaic language
[Ancient Aramaic was not that different from the ancient Phoenician/Canaanite and ancient Hebrew languages]
[Aramaic was also the lingua franca in western areas of the Achaemenid (Persian) empire) When the Greeks
and Romans took over the area the lingua franca of the Levant and eastern Mediterranean was Koine Greek]
During the era of Achaemenid (Persian) rule there was a rebellion[3] That the *Qedarites* [4] joined. The
rebels were defeated and it appears that the Nabataeans took over the monopoly of the the spice
trade (from the Qedarites) with Achaemenid Persia. Later the Nabataeans also had conflicts with
the Greeks (i.e.Third War of the Diadochi 312 BCE)[4]
The Nabatean people were mentioned in nearby kingdoms' correspondence during the 4th century BCE.
The Nabataean Kingdom existed between the 3rd century BCE (i.e. circa 300 BCE) until 106 CE/AD when it's
territory was taken over by Rome and renamed Arabia Petraea[5]
Later (after the division of the Roman empire) under the Eastern Roman/Byzantine empire, the territory was
known as Palaestina Salutaris (circa 300 CE -- 636 CE)[6]
During the mid-Roman period; the Nabatean elite sold their territory to the Roman empire and re-located to Italy,
leaving the peasants in the area (with an, eventually, broken-down water system in Petra).
_________________________________________________________
1.) *Nabataeans*
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nabataeans
2a.) *Nabataean Kingdom (3rd century BCE -->106 CE/AD)*
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nabataean_Kingdom
2b.)*"Emergence" (scroll down) of the Nabataean Kingdom*
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nabataean_Kingdom
""Aramaic ostraca finds indicate that the Achaemenid province Idumaea [i.e. Edom] must have been established
before 363 B.C [363 BCE] after the failed revolt of Hakor of Egypt and Evagoras I of Salamis [Cyprus] against the
Persians. The *Qedarites* joined the failed revolt, and consequently lost significant territory and their privileged
position in the frankincense trade; and were presumably, replaced by the Nabataeans.[3] It has been argued that
the Persians lost interest in the former territory of the Edomite Kingdom after 400 BC, allowing the Nabataeans to
gain prominence in that area. All of these changes would have allowed Nabataeans to control the frankincense
trade from Dedan [i.e. "Al-'Ula, Medina Province, KSA] to Gaza."" - Wiki article
[i.e. *Greeks and early in Roman rule used boats from India and (what is now the country of Yemen) to*
. *Al-'Ula -- >Petra --> Gaza* During the later Roman/Byzantine rule; boats went all the way to Egypt]
2c.) *"Emergence" SEE MAP @ article of the Nabataean Kingdom*
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nabataean_Kingdom
MAP TITLE: ""Trading routes of the ancient Middle East, when Petra was the last stop for caravans carrying
spices before being shipped to European markets through the Port of Gaza"" [No Mecca on this map]
3.) *Qedarites/ "Qedar" (name)*
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qedarites
4.) *The Antigonid-Nabataean confrontations (Greeks vs. Nabateans)*
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antigonid%E2%80%93Nabataean_confrontations
5.) *Arabia Petraea (106 CE - 630s CE)*
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arabia_Petraea
6.) *Palaestina_Salutaris (c. 300 CE - 636 CE)*
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palaestina_Salutaris
I'm quite sure in Islam there was a line that basically said if the qibla direction could not be determined, muslim could just pray to any direction they decided since everything is owned by Allah.
I forgot which part of the Book said that.
I think this is why not many scholars consider it a serious issue that older mosques seems to have different directions
yeah, the Quran, say's that Allah owns the east and the west. However, it is better to pray towards Makkah, but if you don't know the Qibla, then it is okay to pray in any direction.