Alternate WW1 Peacedeals || How Europe Could Have Looked
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 2 เม.ย. 2023
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#possiblehistory #PH #alternatehistory #germany #versailles #ww1
In this video we will be exploring the five peacedeals that ended WW1, the treaties of Versailles, Saint Germain-en-laye, Trianon, Neuilly-Sur-Seine and Sevres. These peacedeals carved up the former Central Powers of, respectively, Germany, Austria, Hungary, Bulgaria and the Ottoman Empire. What did the treaties decide on in real life, and how could we in realistic and not so realistic ways imagine alternate treaties.
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What if Norway 🇳🇴 conquered England in 1066 and and NOT Normandy
Fuck yeah
Or even better: King Harold Godwinson defeated both the Norway and the Normans.
@@crusader2112 Yeah it would be interesting too!
Other possible propositions:
- What If Boudicca succeeded?
- What If the son of King Henry the Eighth survived?
As a norwegian i agree
so basically more scandinavian norwegian influence in all of the english isles not only scotland pog
imagine being a british conscript who survived the horrors of the war, you finally go home to you family and then you read the newspaper to finally discover what your service has brought to the new world and the headline reads “GERMANY LOSES WAR, GROWS BIGGER THAN EVER”
I'd imagine a hypothetical unification of Germany and Austria wouldn't occur until at least a year after the Armistice. So, it'd be more likely that this headline would read, "GREATER GERMANY BECOMES REALITY; AFGHANISTAN INVADES INDIA".
Considering just how rapidly anti-German the British press and public became, I doubt this would go down well.
In practical terms, Germany wouldn't have increased in size but rather unified. Before the war, there were two distinct German states, each ruling over various ethnic minorities. After the war, these minorities would have gained independence, while the two remaining German states, Germany and Austria, would have merged. While this would have expanded Germany's territory on the map, Austria, as a separate state, would no longer exist. Given the context of World War II, where Austria would likely have aligned with Germany as anticipated, this would have been a superior solution. It would have effectively undermined the foundation of National Socialism. Hindsight is always clearer, but with our current knowledge, I believe this might have been the most impactful measure to prevent a second World War.
@@occam7382how would afganastan invade India 🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣
@@DinoRicky, they invaded India in real life, in 1919. It didn't work, but they still did it.
Treaty on the Ottomans be like:
"OK NOW it can't get any worse!.. OK NOW it can't get any worse!.. OK NOW it-"
It was only after I first read about the ramifications of Sèvres that I understood why modern Turks worship Mustafa Kemal as much as they do. That treaty made even Brest-Litovsk look mild by comparison (not necessarilly Trianon, however, if anything, Hungary at the very least gained full independence from Austria, plus they hadn't really been a great power even in their former borders, as opposed to the Ottomans).
Denmark only took North Scheswig. Germany still retains South Schleswig (with the actual city of Schleswig). Hence why our federal state is still called Schleswig-Holstein.
The border was actually drawn by referendum, as a result of Wilsons self determination principle. The area was overwhelmingly ethnically Danish.
The reunification of north slesvig and denmark is still remembered very fondly by the people living there.
Hopefully one day it's made less than nominal again.
If the US hadn’t defended us from angry France and Britain the Danish German border would’ve been the Eider river or the Kiel Canal. I am however Happy We only took the part with a Danish Majority.
@@ThorsteinnMemeson Isn't that also the reason why the Nazi's didn't take territory from Denmark? As opposed to what they did to Belgium and France.
@@concept5631 Denmark was literally known in ww2 for fallling within 6 hours.....
As an Armenian American, the idea of American Armenia is hilarious but also low key kinda preferable to what actually happened. I’d have loved to see how modern Armenia would’ve turned out with American influence instead of Soviet
Well it's still a little feasable rn, I think most Americans support Armenia rn, do to the stuff Armenia's going to, but I agree I love that scenario and I don't even have any Armenian blood that I know of.
@@dcrggreensheep I really appreciate your optimism but I just can’t share it. Turkey is such a strong regional power in the Middle East, plus it’s a part of NATO and a strong American ally. No way they’ll allow any territorial changes. That mixed with the sad fact that since the genocide, there’s almost no Armenians left living within turkish borders. Adding that land would make Armenians nearly a minority in their own country. Besides, the Kurds have claims to a lot of historically Armenian lands around Lake Van now so there’s that to contend with too. TLDR, just too much to contend with, sadly not likely
@@Supaawesomeification TBH closest we can get to this scenerio is a more moderate Turkey after creating a joint team of historians to research the Genocide with Armenia like they tried before and as the result of this research likely accepting and apologizing for the Genocide and Allowing Armenians who can trace their origins back to Ottoman lands free citizenship and Armenia apologizing for the Revenge killings that followed, and Normalization of relations.
Wich TBH isnt that far fetched in OTL since current generation is getting more secularized as a result of Conservative Erdoğanists rotting the Turkey inside out. İt all looks up to this election.
@@ylmazirdenyazc8393 batı emperyalizmine boyun eğelim yani? Güçlü ve bağımsız devletlerin geçmiş suçları için özür dilediklerini görmezsin.
@@Supaawesomeificationmany of our people support Armenia even if the elites support Azerbaijan
Ironically, if Britain does give the Arabs a megastate as they promised, that actually makes an earlier independent Israel more likely as well, by the Feisal-Weizmann Agreement. That was a deal between Emir Faisal (third son of King Hussein of Hejaz, who was the guy the British had promised that state to) and Haim Weizmann that a commission would be established after the Paris Accords to draw a border between a Jewish state in Palestine and the new Arab state. However, Faisal conditioned his agreement on getting that big state, and when the Arabs didn't get their promised state, the agreement became irrelevant (and Faisal quickly became less interested in working with the Zionists in general). Had the British kept their promises, they could have achieved a situation that both the Jews and Arabs accepted in Palestine; but of course, the British had no interest in keeping their promises to ANYONE.
True, the British were masters of deceit.
The eternal anglo does it again...
They did have interests in keeping promises to france
Only sometimes their own people
A mega-arabia would have rolled over Israel in its infancy though.
Bulgaria’s restrictions were extremely harsh
Not only did they loose even more territory after having been attacked by all their neighbors but also their army restrictions were extremely harsh, and the entente had control over how many rifles they could have and they weren’t even allowed to declare war, it was a truly Carthaginian peace
By Carthaginian peace do you mean the peace after the first Punic war or the second?
@@strugz10 second
16:20 You could make the peace deal harsher for Hungary by giving Sopron to Austria like the Entente originally intended, and by allowing the Romanians to push all the way to their "natural border" on the Tisza like they wanted.
Now that is disgusting
you could also give yugoslavia their occupied zone within hungary
@@vasilescupavel8566 What a way to create an extremist state
@@Tovalokodonc no
@@peopleskingdomofwolcottia >I'm looking at the short made by you..... Yikes.
Damn, the French were really ambitious, weren't they?
They want to occupy the sausage factories, that's why
France was animated by a pure hate of Germany. A great deal of their claims were directed against Germany. Syria and Lebanon were French influenced region even before their colonization. I think the most imperialists nations in the war were Germany and Russia but both were defeated
E😊
No. If I were French general I d at least occupy Saarland.
Its almost like the country had a *Napoleon* Complex...
Big Germany may not be that bad of an idea, maybe allowing Germany to unite with Austria kills the sentiment of humiliation and the Nazis never take power.
the Nazis took power in Germany bc of the harsh economic downfall caused by the massive reparations it had to pay, so probably it would happen anyway
France would never accept it. You don't imagine how the french were outraged by Germany
@@dano4996 Absolutely. I'm French myself and hearing people say this would be a good idea even though Germany literally pushed Europe to the worst conflict in its history after uniting through war 40 years earlier is just absolutely shameful. The Treaty of Versailles should have been way harsher to actually prevent Germany to rise ever again, because a united Germany before the new world order post-WW2 could only ever grow to be a bellicist and imperialist power within Europe.
@@DaDa-ui3sw that wouldn't work it would just start another war quicker like with the Turkish war of independents the allies figured out what to do with Germany after ww2 and in 1990
@@stric9l0l It could've perfectly worked, and Germany was in no position to rebel let alone win this hypothetical conflict anyway.
In any case it was better than letting Germany grow once again into another monstruous threat to Europe as it eventually happenned.
Hoi daar, PH.
Speaking of dutch, any alt history of the UK of the Netherlands existing as a single state to the modern day? It most likely would be somewhat divided into provinces, with the French provinces given greater autonomy at the request of Britain to prevent France from getting any new land.
The real questions here is basically: Does BeNeLux stand against both world wars, does Belgian chocolate and fries still exist and what about Kongo?
@Dr1fty Nah, more like BeNeLux still being ruled by the House of Orange.
An Alternate History scenario with the "wilsonian" borders would be great
Mounsier Z made one
Its very interesting
@@ale-xsantos1078 How is the Video called?
@@hardbassmonkey
"What if the 14 points actually succeeded? | Alternate History"
@@ale-xsantos1078 Thank you
@@hardbassmonkey
You're welcome! Hope you have fun
11:00 The americans actually wished to give bulgaria land during the treaties. Macedonia had been populated by bulgarians, and the americans did a census of the region, concluding the area was ethnically bulgar. They viewed serbia as already getting alot of land, that the Macedonians should be given the right to join their ethnic brothers.
You only forgot Belgian imperial ambitions in the Netherlands. They wanted the Limburg province as compensation for neutral Netherlands secretly allow the Germans to cross that territory. And they wanted Zeeuws-Vlaanderen to get better sea access for the Port of Antwerp. Small things that could've extended WOI if Belgium got what it wanted.
Really? I did not find anything from Internet about this claim.
I'd believe this though. Belgium was as much fuelled by revenge as France was.
I have now come to the conclusion that the policy of self determination seemingly makes any alt-hist scenario a schizophrenic free for all... I LOVE IT!
This was a really cool video! Thanks for putting this together.
Brilliant video, it was perfect!!! So happy for your continued success, may it spread to us all!
Super interesting video. Thanks for covering alternate timelines related to this monumental moment in world history.
Your French led partition of Germany looks like a mod for hoi4 Fuherreich
that's because the mod is based off of this treaty
12:11 areas in Southern Bulgaria (the region of Eastern Rumelia) and along the Black Sea (Euxine Pontus) had significant Greek populations that were exchanged with the treaty. It is not unthinkable to have Nevrokopi, Petritsi, Pyrgos, Philipoupoli, Sozopoli, Koulata or at least some of them, become a part of Greece together with Thrace (at least, in a world where Greece retains majority Greek Eastern Thrace)
Maybe even all of rumelia if it would be an harsh harsh treaty
@@ItaloAlbanian greece doesnt want that, this would just result in a massive Bulgarian uprising the same way it happened in turkay and considering Bulgairans and Turks now have the same enemy greece would be facing a two front war and needing the occupy a population that is probably 2 times larger then theirs, so greece would never do that as its just a suicide plan that can backfire so much that greece loses all gains made in the war and even more maybe
WTF R U TALKING ABOUT THRACE IS TURKISH
@@MelyhGG 😂
I like to listen to endless dreams of megali idea enthusiasts and tell them their hopes were ended by someone who was actually born on their own soil
Great video, man! Keep them coming!
Interesting detail to add here on Belgium ambitions;
Belgium actually wanted to annex Dutch Flanders and most of Limburg
I love the Pokemon Conquest music you put in, immediately recognized it. Such a great game!
CONGRATS ON 30k SUBSCRIBERS!
I think it's more realistic that most of sudetes goes to germany and that southern part goes to austria
Are you kidding that the best thing would be a complete division of the Bohemian Crown Lands. Never. On the contrary, the best would be to get back Silesia and Lusatia and create another Switzerland, where people would not define themselves by language but by their country, as they did for 1000 years before Panslavism and Pangermanism. And the merging of the South Germans (Bavaria, Württemberg, Baden, Hessen) with Austria and Liechtenstein to create e.g. Greater Bavaria and Prussia more like Saxon lands, since Prussia would become part of Lithuania. Upper Hungary (Slovakia) and Transylvania would remain part of Hungary. And Poland would have the current borders without Silesia. This would have created 4 historically connected entities of almost equal size, keeping each other in check and in the middle of the Czech lands. Yes, unthinkable in a situation of growing Pangermanism and German reciprocity, and in a situation of growing conflict between Panslavism and Pangermanism in the Czech lands at that time, but it would be the best solution for Central Europe without these stupid ideologies.
@@veronikamullerova7033 So, give Silesia and Lusatia to Czechoslovakia?
There's an alternate universe where there's a video talking about how Europe could've looked like how it looks now
Can you do an alternative WW2 peace deals btw love your videos
I really enjoyed this one!
Allow me to make a suggestion for a future video. The four nations that were originally proposed to be given permanent seats on the UN security council were The United States, The Soviet Union, Britain, and The Republic of China. Eventually, France would also be given a permanent seat, but before that, The United States proposed that Brazil should be given the fifth permanent seat on the security council. Not sure how much different the world would be if Britain, The Soviet Union, and Brazil themselves would have accepted those terms (The Republic of China was evidently fine with that arrangement), but maybe it would make all the difference, who knows?
Why brasil?
@@prohacker5086 well the US/UK and USSR/China created two equal sized blocs in the security council. Brazil was at the time considered to be a rising power in South America and was also considered to be neutral to both sides. There would then be a neutral third party to mediate between the two sides, although it was denied because Brazil is realistically gonna stick with the west considering the other superpower is north of them
@@damonedrington3453 China at the time was ROC which was on the western side
Not all the way. There were still so many significant differences between the republican Chinese and the Imperialist westerners. China in that era was much closer to the USA than Britain or France.
21:30 France with the Rhineland looks like France flipping off Germany
Because that's exactly what it is.
i love the video already
Ngl i was expecting an Exploration of proposed alternate peacedeals of IRL, but this is just as good
Would it be possible that Austria and Tschecheslovakia opted to remain one country? I mean they spoke different languages, but they had very longstanding ties and the Austrians didn't treat their non Germany speaking territories so badly.
Czechs were treated like 2nd class citizens. They were the most industrial and on of the highest economic regions in AH but had virtually no self representation. Bohemia/Moravia were a kingdom long before Austria when Austria was a mere duchy.
No.
Austria was to Czechia like the Netherlands was to Belgium, merely foreign subjugators over a much more industrialised land. That Austro-Bohemian union would go no better than the failed United Netherlands.
Another possible variation on a Wilsonian Germany would see it split along religious lines, with Austria joining the South and West of Germany as a unified Catholic German state, with Lower Germany remaining as a Protestant German state.
At 8:49 you said Italy got the Dodecanese Islands, but Italy had already got them in 1912
True! But the Italians were (meant) to return the island to the Ottomans eventually, it wasn't to be a permanent Italian holding. Then WW1 broke out, which obviously prevented Italy from returning the territory since they were at war with the Ottomans, and the treaty of Sevres then confirmed and officially ceded control over the islands "permanently" to Italy.
@@possiblehistory I didn't know, thanks for the clarification
@@possiblehistory I don’t think Italians would give it
@@possiblehistory this was similar to the case with Egypt, which from 1888-1914 was under British occupation but was still recognized as an Ottoman vassal, however upon the Ottoman Empire’s entry into World War I the British declared an official British protectorate in Egypt.
I was literaly just wanting you to do a video about this.
Why does the rhineland look like modern day serbia💀
Treaty of Trianon could also have been worse:
-Yugoslavia wanted Pécs (a Southern Hungarian city)
-Romania wanted the river Tisza as the natural border between Romania and Hungary
-Czechoslovakia wanted to share border with Yugoslavia to fully encricle Hungary with the Little Entente members. There were no real plans to how to make this possible, but if the encirclement was the plan I think Czechs and Yugos would split the western part of Hungary between each other.
So on the whole: in the worst case Hungary would exist only between the river Danube and river Tisza (in Hungarian: Duna-Tisza köze)
p.s.: We had a mottos about Wilson and self-determination that time:
"From Wilson, we want only Wilson peace"
the natural borders between Romania and Hungary are the Carpatians, not Tisza)
@@eugenekostrin2109 because of the current borders. The stupidity of Little Entente was limitless. They can lie about anything just to gain land.
6:48 What? No, Romania already had southern Dobrunja from the second Balkan war.
You are correct. I should have said the *return* of Dobruja to Romania, as Bulgaria had taken control over it during the war, but it was officially still part of Romania.
@@possiblehistory well souther dobruja was under bulgarian control but the rest was under Central Power administration.
@@possiblehistory "return" But drobrudja was actually bulgarian before the second Balkan war. So Bulgaria tried to return it. That's the reason Bulgaria joined the war(and Macedonia end Central Trackey too).
This helped me make a funny alternate history story with my friend about ww2
In the map for the second balkan war,you forgot to show that romania took southern dobruja
Can you make a video on what if Richard the lionheart survived and live longer because they're not a single alternate-history video on TH-cam about Richard the lionheart which is surprising because if he survived a lot of history with changed
i do think that simply including the Megali Idea and Dmowski's Line as the "imperial ambitions" peace deal would be a better choice than what's shown in the video
This is how the world would look like if HOI IV peace conference mechanics applied irl
Controversial opinion: Sudeten-Austria doesn't actually look that bad
Agreed, although I would prefer Austria and all of the Czech Republic merging into a new dual Monarchy under the Habsburgs. But I’m just fantasizing.
Probably because you saw it before and are used to it. I'd bet that if you saw it for the first time, without ever seeing a map of Europe before, that you would also see how terrible the borders are.
the clear solution is to give Sudetenland to Germany and leave the rest of Austria independent, possibly granting it some lands from southern Germany (maybe to thicken that panhandle into some managable.)
Austro-Bavaria, anyone?
@@ooi97 Maybe Northern sudetenland to Germany and Southern to Austria (with maybe southern Oberbayern included)?
@@ooi97 Austro-Bavaria would be interesting. The linguist in me also wonders if this state would possibly reform the Bavarian dialects spoken in the majority of this region into a standardised Language. But I guess for this to happen the sentiment to fully seperate from Germany would have to be strong.
What if the US pushed the Oregon territory claim with a plan to then annex more of Mexico? As a way to keep with the free and slave state compromise while still working within the Missouri compromise agreement?
Basically US looking at modern British Columbia, Alberta, Yukon and the northwest territories to break up into states.
30k subscribers 🎉 almost
That David Lloyd George quote is hilarious. Peak british humor
26:15 my problem with the "imperialists revansist" border map is that Romania doesn't have the "natural borders" on the Tisza river,on what i know that was also a claim from the Romanian side alongside "West Banat" or the Vojivodina lands on the left bank of the Danube river.
Romanians trying hard to claim 99% Hungarian clay that they have no history with.
@@anon_148 You know, that's usually what happens when centuries of warfare leave a territory desolate of it's original population. Also probably what happens when Habsburg incentivize immigration from neighbouring countries.
In the fully "Free determination of People" scenario, as a Swiss, a little unrealistic musing came to me: Voralberg could have been forcibly given to Switzerland.
The entente was mostly against it, but there are some evidence i believe France at some point wanted to give the entire Tyrol to Switzerland, and we have the historical precedent of Denmark being forced to annex part of Schleswig so it would not be entirely out of the picture. A Voralberg annexation could have resulted in really bad destabilisation within Switzerland since both the Italians and Romands would have become even more of a minority. In a best case scenario, maybe a Jura Canton would have been created within Switzerland to balance the creation of a new german speaking canton and even more improbably, Grischun could have been split between Romanic and Germanic parts.
In worse scenario it would have resulted in social turmoil that'd either result into a Belgium-like solution where each communities get their own state within a very lose confederation or a partition either into three states or between neighboring countries with for example annexation of the Italian speaking region by italy. Romandy staying independant would be probable in such a scenario i'd say but absorption into France is also likely even if less so than the Italian speaking region.
Another great video
Also 26:02 thx 😏
Very cool
Well yes the german "invasion" of 1870... not like it was a french war of aggression...
Yes Bismarck wanted the war, but still invasion is the wrong word.
"Offensive" is a more accurate term.
Edit: I’m wrong France did launch a campaign across the Saar
France declared war but I don’t believe they actually invaded North Germany nor the Catholic German states, instead it was the North Germans (led by Bismarck and Prussia), with the Catholics in tow, who launched the military expedition and invaded Lotharingia
@@TheLocalLt, France did try to invade Saarland at the beginning of the war... it just went horribly wrong for them and they were immediately pushed back into France.
@@occam7382 wow I didn’t remember that, seems rather like the Battle of the Frontiers in WWI or the Saar Offensive in WWII
@@occam7382 wow I didn’t remember that, seems rather like the Battle of the Frontiers in WWI or the Saar Offensive in WWII
Hi PH, I have an interesting scenario:
what if During the succession of Suleiman the magnificent, Mustafa was the one to come out on top instead of Selim the second?
Or: What if after Mehmet II, Cem came into power instead of Bayezid II?
This is amazing. I love it.
But still kinda wished the Dutch Expanded into Oost Friesland. That’d be pretty good.
Actually, Denmark decided to put the territories of schleswig, Holstein and Lauenburg to a vote, where Danes and Germans could vote on what nation they wanted to belong to. In zone 1 (northern schleswig), the whole block voted as one. In zone 2 and 3 (Southern Schleswig and Holstein), individual cities could decide to join either side. The hope from the Danish side was to ensure zone 1 became Danish, while hoping some German cities joined Denmark, most notably Flensburg. Although Denmark didn't just take all these territories (because Germany would want them back), the voting system was still slanted in Denmark's favor, since some of the cities in northern Schleswig were likely to vote for Germany, and this actually happened in cities such as Tønder, Sønderborg and Haderslev, but because the rest of zone 1 voted to be Danish, these cities became Danish too. It is an interesting topic, which anyone interested should check out!
8:15
Treaty of Sevres the harshest treaty ever.
*Meanwhile Hungarians after Trianon*
"Well guess we can just fucking die"
Yeah, the Treaty of Sevres might have been harsher on paper, but after Atatürk it definitely wasn't the harshest
@@anon_148 "no claims"
> more than 3,5 million Hungarians stripped from their homeland. Just for reference, in 1910 that was almost a million more than the whole Slovak populace.
@@anon_148 Hungarians constituted 54% of the population. Saying that Hungarians made up the minority in the annexed territories is bending and highlighting only the information that supports and is thus inherently ignorant.
@@anon_148 Total figure
@@anon_148 Neither does it work like you imagine
Sorbs mentioned >:3
i'm not one but i'm still happy cause i live in the area
Possible history really fits
Nice
Most videos are 8 months old, this is 16 min.
Feels illegal
19:09
There also was talks about an Assyrian nation being made so there could be been either an Independent Kurdistan and Assyria or a Kurdish-Assyrian Union which would totally be stable and wouldn't be divided ethnically or religiously
Wasn’t all that serious compared to the Kurdish calls for nation-building
@@NetChalakwan I would say with Wilson's Self Determination Policy, there's a chance it might happen. Besides, the British promised it in our timeline (which never happened as we know) so it's not impossible to be implemented. Besides, they did already create blends of cultures into 1 nation which includes Czechoslovakia and Yugoslavia
Man, I love those maps
all the balkans possessions of austria-hungary were actually given independence and could choose their own paths. We opted to make a proto-yugoslavia which was a democratic state, but due to a shabby economy and low recognition it lasted less than a month and we accepted to merge with serbia and montenegro. Morphing from the State of Slovenes, Croats and Serbs, into the Kingdom of Serbs, Croats and Slovenes (Yes, they did change the name placements, I am not making it up).
Can you please do what if the normans lost the battle of Hastings?
They couldn't. Alternative history becomes interesting when there is a glimpse of possibility.
@@DaDa-ui3sw I mean, they almost did until the English chased the retreating Normans off the hill and onto the field, allowing the Norman knights to butcher them.
I would like to see a "What if the Normans Conquered the Byzantines" under Bohemond de Hauteville scenario though. l love the Byzantines, but knights are awesome.
you should've included russian ambitions for if they actually won the war, maybe a separate scenario for if russia won ww1?
where did you get the map? i really want something like this
14:27 / 16:53 as a czech that cursed austria thing, makes me vomit.
But also awesome video. You could add that supossed czechoslovak colony in Togo.
Hey, I have an interesting scenario: After the collapse of the USSR Poland, The Baltics, Czechs & Slovaks, the rest of the former Warsaw Pact and Ukraine & Belarus formed an Intermarrium instead of joining NATO. It would be cool if you could cover it in a scenario. Peace ✌🏻 and keep up the great work. 😎👍
1. Why would the West Slavic country even create the Intermarrium, unless NATO dissolves shortly after the Soviet collapse.
2. I honestly don't see Lukashenko being in unison with the more liberal thinking Poland and Czechia.
@@tyvamakes5226 NATO could be dissolved I guess if someone like Pat Buchanan became President and as for Lukashenko you’re probably right, so cut out Belarus. Honestly, I just want to see this scenario, regardless of realism.
@@tyvamakes5226 "liberal"? Czechia maybe, but Poland is literally a consernazi dystopia
@@mariasirona1622 conservn*zi? Really? Don’t you think you’re being a bit dramatic?
@Saraj • Сарай Thanks, so Belarus could still join.
Gosh i knew sevres was harsh but not this harsh
Trianon:
If argue that trianon was harsher than sevres because sevres was never truly enforced and instead renegotiated to a much more minor terms. Meanwhile trianon was atleast atleast close if not equally harsh (arguably the strictest military restirctions and greatest land loss).
As far as I know, the ceded land in Schleswig was:
1. Only North Schleswig
2. Not related to the end of ww1 (Related to instead, the second Schleswig war (in 1864))
3. Done democratically by popular vote in the territory in question
4. Agreed upon by both nations as a fair way to split it
Germany loses war and becomes larger than ever. In words of Todd Howard it just works.
Hello from Ukraine🇺🇦. Great alternative scenario, always interesting and informative.
Hi, all the best to your country, and take care 🙏
@@pimp43721 Thank you! I really appreciate this kind words :)
Slava Ukrayini
@@NetChalakwan Героям Слава!
This reminds me of a book, "A Peace to End All Peace: The Fall of the Ottoman Empire and the Creation of the Modern Middle East" by David Fromkin.
9:33 am I delusional or is that the forest of hope theme?
What if Edward IV had married Isabella of Castile ?
What if Mary I gave birth to A son ?
What if Richard III won the Battle of Bosworth ?
1) That scenario would be very interesting, but I have a feeling that the English would meddle and they would not allow both kingdoms to be unified.
2)If the son is killed I think it would start a full-scale war throughout Europe because he would be the legitimate heir to England and Spain. And in case he is not assassinated, the war would start when he grew up and decided to claim the throne of England
3)Any different result in the war of the roses is unpredictable, Henry VIII and Elizabeth I were such important figures that I don't know if they can be replicated.
I also think its important to notate that the borders drawn in the middle east werent necessarily thought up and considered solely by europeans. A lot and honestly most of the norders used by the allied powers were what the ottomans had for different regions within the empire.
Why did the music from the Forest of Hope from Pikmin start playing around 10:00
Today after watching and learning about the treaty of Versailles in this much detail I really think it was very harsh on Germany and Austria I mean too harsh
The self determination scenario is kinda based ngl.
no
@@DaDa-ui3sw French ultranationalist eh?
@@HerzogAndrean it just absolutely makes no sense for Germany to gain territories after losing the war.. and the way he presented Alsace as remaining German in this scenario even though the Alsaciens wanted back in France makes no sense and is acc insulting.
@@DaDa-ui3sw The fact that you are this upset about a hypothetical scenario presented in a video on YT is pretty revealing and kinda sad.
@@HerzogAndrean im not upset nor debating the interest of the scenario lmaooo im just explaining what is factually wrong in this video, you not being able to face these facts as a German and taking it as an offense despite the efforts for memory in your country really is what's sad and revealing :)
Before watching the vid: Germany keeping Alsace-Lorraine like in the thumbnail is a great way to ensure there’s not peace in Europe
Only because France was imperialist.
Drink every time you hear "wilson's idea of self determination"
This makes me think what a interesting scenario it would be if the soviets have won the russo polish war or if poland would have won it like holdinh significant russian land.
Technically in before anyone can watch the whole video
Put it on 2x
Czechoslovakia was basically declaring indipendence from Austria-Hungary before the end of the war, one of the reasons why Austria-Hungary surrendered in fact, that's why it became independent.
Congrats, you've basically recreated Fuhrerreich
You could have also included Russian ambitions had the revolution not happened.
I concur.
Too bad I would've liked an American-Armenia. Imagine a lot of the troubles they had later on would've never happened.
Perhaps maybe Armenia could've gotten the Japan treatment and been given the chance to prosper with the US protecting them from hostile countries.
For once, a truly prosperous nation in the middle east without authoritarianism.
*The Entente finishes their treaties*
Wilson: PLEBICITES
Alternate Czechoslovakia is honestly pretty interesting. For one, you had people earlier in the century planning to expand Slovakia to the fucking Balaton, which was obviously not going to be a thing, but Slovak border pushed slightly to the south might've been doable (if not very likely). For another, there are the goddamn Ruthenians, who for the longest time couldn't agree about where they want to belong. Independent Ruthenia was an option, as was joining Ukraine (which never materialized), Russia (which was in a state of civil war, and also that civil war was eventually won by the Bolsheviks, whom the Entente defo didn't want to empower by giving them territory - for that matter, Ruthenians themselves weren't keen on joining them either), Hungary, and of course some form of autonomy within any of these. Joining Czechoslovakia was basically a compromise solution, brought about by lots of negotiations between desperate Ruthenian factions.
Worth noting that Italy had been occupying the Dodecanese for several years prior to WW1.
Yes... But it wasn't legitimate. Italo-Turkish treaty of 1912 proposed return of the island to Turks.
What if Poland won the Polish bolshevik war? (They technicly won irl BUT they didnt get either Ukraine or Belarus freed)
Guess what?
Nazis rule!
(There are literally would be no one to oppose Germany)
There would either be a full on Federation akin to the PLC or a tight alliance. Neverthless, the Polish Leadership's ego will be inflated even greater and they'll boast even harder about being the same great power as france ans britain LMFAO (I'm Polish BTW). Regarding the policy towards the other ethnic groups, things could possibly be better for them or more accurately, more consequential rather than swinging between attempts at hard polonization, lighter assimilation or cooperation. Safe to say, there would be no Nazi levels of discrimination genocide (not that there were in OTL, but some propadangists like doing that. There were some pacifications of villages and destructions of orthodox churches, but no holocaust or generalplan ost levels. To call the Polish government at the time fascist would be an overstatement. Nationalistic fits better.)
@@lookie4448 Interwar Polish politics is a mess. Suffice to say, it was primarily through nationalists' efforts that Poland did not gain as much land out of the war with the Soviets as it could since the nationalists feared absorbing too many minorities would make the borders harded to maintain. And Piłsudski's supporters came from social democracy through catch-all populism to proto-fascistic nationalism all in an attempt to disarm the original nationalists' image of the true patriots.
0:59 "not allowing this to happen again" 🗿
Cool
About the Treaty of Sevres, I wanted to note that first of all, Italy was never getting all of that land, and the spheres of influence were only meant as economic/free trade areas. Afterall, Italy never had the military might to protect its claims, and even allowed Turkey to attack Greek positions through them. The only country with actual ethnic claims and also a military strong enough to impose them there was Greece. Eastern Thrace, Constantinople, Ionia, Bithynia, Pontus and Caria were Greek claims in the Paris Peace Convention, and all of these regions were more than 50% Greek, as well as had significant Jewish, Franco-Levantine and Armenian communities. Turks only made 35-45% of the population in any one of these areas, with the possible exception of Constantinople itself, which was 55% Turkish but in an ethnic Greek region + surrounded by majority Greek regions on all sides. In the end, the reason why Turkey got Eastern Thrace is that the Entente forces Greece to accept Turkish domination over the Straights, because Ataturk had agreed to all their concessions and was being supported by them. All of Eastern Thrace had even voted in Greek elections, as a normal part of Greece, in 1920. And they voted for Venizelos. Adrianople, Kalipoli, Saranda Ekklisies and Rhaedestos were all not just Greek cities, but Greek prefectures at the time
Man, we really should've let the Megali Idea go through, perhaps Greece might actually be a more prosperous country today, the Hagia Sofia would be rightfully restored and the cultural heritage of Constantinople and Smyrna wouldn't be at risk of constant looting from vandals and nationalists
@@marcusaustralius2416 I disagree. There were too much claims in Anatolia, with Turkish majority towns. At best Greece could have Smyrna, Eastern Thrace and Constantinople. Plus Aegan islands.
@@alexzero3736 execute a population swap like they did at the end of the war in our timeline, problem solved, those lands rightly belonged to Greece, as did frankly all of Anatolia, however going that far is too much
Give them the areas with large greek populations and then displace the Turks
Only country who had strong enogh military to impose was not Greece, it was made so by the British supports to Greece, so they could end the Turkish resistance. UK deliberatly allowed Greece to land on İzmir to force the treaty on the Ottoman Goverment, and used them to indirectly fight the Turkish National Movement. Which is also the reason why
İtaly never helped neither Greece or France against the Turks, and left their claimed areas without a fight, because the city was promised to them earlier. Plus there was also the French Army in the southern front of the war of independence. France could impose the treaty but chose not to, since the war had already costed them too much casualties and would cause more if they were to force the treaty. So they decided cost would be too much and decided to peace with the Turks with treaty of ankara.
Why Turkey got Eastern Thrace was because the whole Greek Army of Asia Minor was forced to flee Anatolia by Turkish Army (National movement) and Greece was in no place to negotiate. İn fact even the ceasefire agreement was done between Turks and British, despite the war was fought with Greeks. Atatürk was not supported against Greece, it was the other way around but Greece failed to impose the treaty since France decided to peace in South and Armenia was defeated in East.
@@tk5gqj514 What I'm saying is that the Greeks were the ones that fought and died for Anatolia. Yes, the British and French had the diplomatic leverage, they pulled the strings from behind the scenes. But the main fighting parties were Greece and Turkey. The British and French took advantage of us.
And no, Turkey didn't get Eastern Thrace because Greece couldn't fight. But, after the collapse of the Greek government and the military coup d'etat, the British and French forced Venizelos to accept a treaty by which Turkey would be the only one to control the Dardanelles. And this was done because Kemal accepted all the terms of the westerners, while the military government in Greece didn't
24:30 is THE map. if it would be this way, there wouldn't be ww2. Wilson has the best proposal in a long run, because indebting somebody for their wrongdoing is one thing, but cutting off parts of the body for that..
Well but then you can get in the fight over what nationality and ethnicity is.
Because for example DNA research shows Czechs and Austrians are closer (more similar haplogroups) than Czechs and Slovaks. And that's because we were a part of one state with Austrians since like 15th century.
Also the border regions are "German" because Czech kings invited Germans to settle those regions in 11-13th century. So the only reason there were problems after WW1 are different languages. Those regions were never part of Germany, they have been part of Czech lands since 8th century. And similarly, HUngarians and Slovaks have almost the same dna, because they were part of one state and mixed a lot. Whereas movement between Germany and Habsburg empire wasn't free, so the similarity in ethnicity is lower.
All problems could have been avoided if Austria-Hungary transformed into some form of United States of Central Europe - with each nationality getting their own state, but being part of a bigger federal country. That would deter Germans from annexing Austria, would not make Hungarians hungry to cooperate with Nazis to get back territories (as they would have the Hungarian majority territories) and other stuff.
An interesting scenario can be what if at the end of ww1 the great powers cannot find a treaty, with for exemple countries like France and Italy, putting heavier demand on the defeated nation, who lead to a french invasion of germany, who lead to France putting heavier demand (like annexing the west of the Rhine and divide germany into soem occupied puppet states). Who lead to a cold war. With britain and usa trying to support germany or what remain of an Austro-Hungarian empire both diplomatically and militarily, against a franco-italian alliance for power.
A scenario like that can be realy interesting, with big consequence (for example a bigger spread of communism dues to soldier reluctant to fight their former allied). And for continue (this part is not realistic (like all of my scenario)) we can imagine a bigger crisis in 1929 (because of the lack of trade between rivals). Who lead to a world war between a new roman Empire and Britain, with each side playing on territorial issues in the Austro-Hungarian Empire, the Balkan, Anatolia to get allies. At the end I think the new Roman Empire shall win thank to the german industrial output, and because, they shall probably turn more militaristic and nationalist, dues to the territorial annexions than a Britain weaker by an economic crisis further, because they trade more with the USA, who will seek for peace, until the USA and the Soviet-Union (or white Russia) enter the game.
This scenario is just for fun and is just an alternate history scenario.
a fun sugestion: what if the War to end all wars had actually beeen the last world war
Bro imagine Greece having all those pockets and having to explain why.
Ancient land? Ever thought of that?
@@georgedevries3992 You clearly don't understand the absurdity of those borders.
Wdym?
@@Ozzy08018 I beg to differ since there is nothing absurd with these "hypothetical" borders. It just requires some knowledge on ancient history. :)
@@georgedevries3992 You're seriously implying Greece should just look like that like every other Greek Nationalist.