There’s honestly so much freedom in submission to your husband, and it helps turn him into the man God made him to be. It’s so countercultural and so counterintuitive but it’s so healing for the toxicity of modern marriage.
I’m not submitting to anyone. Every time I’ve been a submissive doormat it’s screwed me over. With my emotionally abusive ex, my extremely strict parents, and the people who bullied me growing up, I was a submissive doormat and it put me in worse situations. I refuse to clean up a man’s messes or submit.
@@soylatte1288 in my marriage I am and my husband we both are very disagreeable, oppinionaited ppl, we usually talk everything out and he is my advisor number 1 and I am his, but when we have something where I don't have a strong oppinion, like either one works, I let him decide on that, and yes he makes more decitions, especially the big ones, I am usually too undecisive on those, like we were talking that we would want to buy a puppy for a long time, we knew what breed and everything, but I thought that it maybe be after like half a year, like something in the future, one day he came from work and said let's go to buy the puppy because I have a contact, that day we came home with a dog. I mean and there were a lot of bigger decitions like these, where I thought yeah all good but maybe a little further down the line, but he was like lets do it now, and I am like ok, fine by me. I mean someone has to make a damn decition you know. Can we call that submission ? 🤔
@@katenoke1571 Fair- that's not the best way to say the thing. But thinking of it in another way- men submit all the time. One of my favorite parts of the recent Barbie movie was the depiction of the board of Mattel as a bunch of yes-men following along behind Will Farrell. Submission, for men, is normal; it's how male interaction is structured, but determining who submits to whom, to a significant degree ("the bros" are a different matter, of course). Thus, as I believe Abp. Fulton Sheen put it- When Paul said wives submit to your husbands and husbands love your wives, what he was really doing was telling the man and the woman that they must do what's hard; they must love the other in the way the other understands love. Man must give to woman what she needs- love and sacrifice, and woman must give to man what he needs- submission and respect. Man must put his desires aside and take responsibility, and woman must put her desires aside and allow herself to be taken responsibility for. Another commentator put it this way- the takeaway that we really need to have when we say that the husband is first in authority, is the fact that the wife really is second! She isn't a doormat, she isn't a slave- she's the second in command, and ought to be ready and able to assume command of the family should the husband ever be incapable of doing so, due to sickness or injury or being called away to war, etc. Some enjoy pointing out that the man has the final say in the household. Fine- that's his duty, but if he doesn't take council from his wife, the second in command, and often the more knowledgeable in matters directly pertaining to the family, before making a decision, then he is a fool. Partially because he has not taken advantage her skills and experience, and so left a great resource unused. Partially because the result will be that his wife doesn't know why he makes the choices he does, and will have difficulty continuing any projects that the family has started if he gets sick or has to leave. Proverbs 31 describes a woman who is given money by her husband, and she responds by not only taking care of all the family and the servants, but also going off and investing it without even asking his permission- one can only imagine that this partnership must have been incredible; for a woman to be both willing to manage the home and also ambitious enough for her family to go find a good investment and purchase it? Think of the man who must have been her husband, who she would be willing to call her lord, and who considered himself so fortunate to call her his lady, that he would brag about her to his friends at the town gate. Not simply mention what she was up to, mind you, but praise her to his friends. When, has that ever, been shown in pop culture? Hmm, maybe It's a Wonderful Life? That's probably about it. I was going to mention, as examples, how men act together- for example, Frodo and Sam, where Frodo is technically in charge and Sam is just the gardener, or in the recent Masters of the Air how the pilot and copilot interact. Or any similar movie where there's a difference of power- Master and Commander, Ford vs Ferrari, etc. All of those interactions would technically involve submission from the person with less authority, but it isn't a "slavery"-style submission, as it is often talked about when discussing a husband having authority. A good example of that relationship between a husband and wife done well is in A Quiet Place. Anyway, that's my novel- if you made it here, I appreciate it, and hope it was intriguing in some way. May God bless you!
@@a.drozda8465 I appreciate that you put a lot of effort into your post. However, as someone who's living in the real world, I understand that women being submissive is about creating a social structure, a hierarchy, where roles are clearly defined, mostly for the benefit of men.
@@a.drozda8465 in the military and in companies, there's a hierarchy based on merit. Promotions are earned. That's not the case in the submissive/dominant relationships you're promoting. Men don't have to do anything except get married to earn their authority. I reject that. It might make them feel powerful, but the other person in the relationship is reduced to being a non entity.
@@katenoke1571 - Hmm... tell me more about that, if you're inclined, because it doesn't seem to follow, at least over in Catholic-land (which is a good deal different than the rest of the world, so feel free to correct me if you weren't talking about Catholics specifically). And I say that for two reasons- First, in Catholicism, women aren't *generally* submissive to men; just specifically. That is, they're submissive to their fathers, as normal, unless there's a good reason not to be, as normal, and then, they're submissive to whoever they decide to be committed to- an abbess, if they become a nun, a husband, if she decides to marry, or the local bishop, technically, if she decides to remain single. Which is quite a bit of freedom compared to other cultures, and most of that was for protection; abbey walls didn't exist because nuns were escaping. Even points where women were prevented from owning a business or something of that nature was largely due to dangers incurred in business dealings- even merchants traveled with armed escorts at one time. And, as soon as that was no longer necessary, we see Catholic women starting to own businesses (consider St Zelie Martin, the mother of St. Therese of Lisieux, who ran a very successful lace-making business, to the point that her husband eventually shut down his watchmaking business to become a salesman for her.) And again, all these are equally applicable to Catholic men, who are also obedient to the local bishop, etc, and the local government authorities, having to go fight in wars and whatnot, which were more common than usually considered. (Oh, and there is the consideration that even in Medieval times, getting told off by a nun was not fun, to say nothing of getting told off by a single woman who wasn't actually a nun, even though she wore a habit around- which is St. Catherine of Sienna; not a nun, told off the pope, and various other religious leaders (fairly common for Medieval women to do; a number of female saints in that camp). Also, the concept of "mitered abbesses" which were abbesses of abbeys that had been around long enough to receive extra status from the Pope; basically it meant that, within the abbey, even the local bishop was subordinate to the abbess. There are a couple mitered abbesses in the US actually; one of them is St. Walburga in northern Colorado.) Second, some of that "protective" aspect of masculinity remains; if I were able to protect my wife from danger, and chose not to, resulting in her injury or death, my status as a man would basically be revoked entirely. Thus, part of the "authority" aspect of the husband is that the wife needs to be in a stance of being willing to follow, because if I say jump and she says "what if I don't want to", that might be all the time it takes for her to get hurt and me to not be able to protect her. It's like if a member of the Secret Service told the President to duck, and he refused and got shot- it's very difficult to protect someone who isn't willing to accept the protection. It's pragmatic to have the person who is going to be stopping the spears and the bullets in charge of the group. But again, I don't have any idea whether you're Catholic or not, what your perspective is, etc. I've given examples of men being submissive to men, men being submissive to women, and husbands being submissive in appropriate aspects to their wives, which seems like a fairly complete picture of the various aspects of relational interaction in the Catholic Church (not that everyone knows about these things, but Matt Fradd probably does). And, to be entirely fair, none of this matters in relation to Protestant Christianity (who largely don't have nuns, or even single women as a vocation, and so traditionally don't have any significant authority structure for women to occupy), or secular society, which is largely pagan at best (I'm using the word in a technical Philosophy of Religion sense) and therefore effectively survival-of-the-fittest/anything goes/take what you can; give nothing back (only a slight simplification- newpolity.com/blog/the-perversion-of-the-priesthood ). So, if you aren't speaking with a view to specifically Catholic culture, none of what I said above matters. Again though, all the best and may God bless you!
Biblical submission is such a beautiful thing ❤ but because of that, the enemy has done a great job of distorting what it is meant to be. That's why so many "trad" pages online are full of misogynistic men who want a woman to Lord over.
Those are the men I wouldn't entrust myself to, for sure. I'm not about to put myself in a situation that involves submitting to a man I don't like or trust, so there is no way I would marry one of them
I get the feeling a lot of men are exploiting the domestic labor of their wives under the guise of a "traditional marriage". Free housekeeper, free childcare, .... list goes on.
Those are the "Christians" who don't understand Christianity or don't want to truly understand Christ and his teachings. They desperately want Ephesians to be about authority and obedience while it's actually about loving one another as Christ teaches.
Great discussion. Submission is NEVER something that should be imposed or enforced onto someone. That not only takes away their dignity and self determination, but opens the door to abuse of power. Submission is a GIFT to be given at will. Even our loving Father Jesus Christ does not force us to submit. We submit to Him out of LOVE because He loves us more than we can ever understand.
True. That us why the word is submit - hence done from the perapective of the one submitting. But then one must ask one's self why one would refuse if this is the command and plan of God for our flourishing. Isn't it that the insistence on self determination is what got us into this mess in the first place?
@@popebenedict7615 I totally see your point. There’s definitely good in choosing submission and I think it’s part of the natural law written into women. I just don’t think that should ever be coerced or enforced and the people who seem intent on that are not coming from the right place. He also tells us to submit to one another, not as a blanket statement but rather to encourage our meekness and sacrifice for one another. I do believe that self determination is critical to preventing abuse of power which is integral to human fallen nature.
@@divinecomedian2 exactly. Submission is a gift, but also a debt. Something owed. And it is owed despite a spouse's imperfections or even sins. In these discussions you'll always see wives waiting and withholding submission until their husband "loves them like Christ." If that's what your submission is qualified with you'll never give it.
Hey Matt! Thank you for this. I really appreciate you guys. I would like to say a few things on this topic. None against what you are saying, just some thoughts I have on the matter as it seems to be a frequent topic for discussion on a number of different podcasts. I'm a life long Roman Catholic who greatly loves her faith. I want to be not only obedient to God, but also know and love him. It is why I've spent the last 15 years studying the Catholic faith. I'm nearly 31 now. Over the last 15 years, I've watched many Catholic podcasts; you, Father Mike Schmidt, Micheal Lofton, Bishop Barron, Mother Angelica, Bishop Fulton Sheen, Scott Hahn, Jimmy Atkin, Trent Horn, the list goes on. I've read some of the classic works by the saints, as well as a number of books on marriage, love, and sex written from the Catholic perspective. Theology of the Body being one of them. I'm currently working on the Bible in a Year, and will be starting Catechism in a Year soon. I'm telling you all this because I want you to know I have some knowledge of the Catholic faith, and I'm not just spouting a personal opinion. That is not to say I know everything, because I most certainly do not. I'm always looking to understand and learn more about our faith. Now, beyond what you guys discussed in this video, I can't find an official church teaching or biblical passage that specifically lays out the EXACT roles of men and women in the context of marriage. Many of the people mentioned above have done similar videos, some explain things a little different, but it's always in the same vein. Others have discussed the various beliefs different church fathers have held about the roles of men and women. It's because of all this that I believe the way a couple decides to manage their household is between them and God. It's one of the many freedoms we have been given as His creations. I agree that many women have been manipulated into believing that submitting to their husband is some kind of slavery, or that somehow it lowers them to the same status as a child. They're wrong, and don't know or understand the truths the church has to offer. That being said, too many men and women do not have a clear understanding of what submission means, especially the biblical definition of submission, so they try to apply their own logic to the situation and call it either a biblical or church teaching. Or they have read some of the beliefs the church fathers have held on this topic, and take them as church teaching vs. personal opinion. The church fathers were saints and incredibly wise, but the church doesn't teach us that every word that ever left their mouths was a teaching or line of thought that should be repeated as if it is a teaching. I believe this happens because of three things: 1) Human brokenness. We are always seeking some form of control over our own lives or the lives of others. 2) Spiritual immaturity. Many people can't understand that God is not asking us all to do the exact same thing. Not every marriage should be run the exact same way. 3) They don't have a clear understanding of their faith. Too many people will just believe whatever another person tells them without consulting the church first. As an example, I have personally known many Roman Catholics who cannot understand why the Pope allows Eastern Catholics to worship the way they do. They think that all Catholics need to be practicing the Catholic faith the exact same way for it to be valid. If it looks different then what they are used to, it can't be right. I think this applies here because I've noticed a lot of people, especially those who identify as Protestant or traditional Catholic, talk about submission and a man and a woman's place as though there is some kind of official doctrine on the matter beyond the stuff you and Dr. Gress were discussing. I love the traditions and teachings of the church, but I want the traditions and teachings the church actually upholds and teaches, and not just a personal opinion someone confused as a church teaching. Anyway, that's all. Sorry that was so long.
Have you read the sections on the duties of husbands and wives from the Roman Catechism (catechism of the council of trent)? That’s the closest thing I think we have to a definitive, infallible statement from the church on the specific roles of each spouse, and it’s very clear and detailed!
Good for you on your search for truth and deepening of your faith. I believe she covers this in minute 2. The church doesn't necessarily say exact roles or anything via a dogma for the reasons you mention. Thing are complex and there are always exceptions to "the rule", but it teaches what is usually best for most. For the exceptions, I think, that is why we are encouraged to take up our cross and realize it is not always about just us and our own happiness in this life. It's humbling and an example to those around us if we endure and trust in the lord. Even if we may not get praise and recognition from the people around us. God sees. Humanity will never be perfect in this life and the heretical cycles will be recycled probably many times over. We do the best we can and try not to lead others into error or scandal. God bless you for taking the time to look into and learn about your faith. That in itself is a great (and needed) example today. We are the generations that believe we are the smartest and therefore don't need God, but we are actually the exact opposite. We need more humility and openness to seeing outside ourselves and our own desires. 🙂
Good for you for trying to figure it out and keeping the journey onward and upward. I too need more education on the submission part. I have studied marriage for many years and still don;t have it down pat.
I certainly didn't read as much as you, but by looking at what the sources I've read (old and modern), I came away with "submission" ultimately being down to two things: 1. Letting your husband lead. If he says "Let me handle it" you let him handle it AS LONG AS it's not sinful or unloving (i.e. damaging to anyone) 2. Be respectful and not be stubborn. They all also make it clear that it's not at all like slavery or blind obedience. It should be liberating and relieving. I also came out with the impression, like you, that the specifics are down to each couple to decide. If/when I get married I plan to demand absolutely nothing from my wife. I'll do my duty of leading, whether she follows me is up to her. If she's firm on something not happening, then it won't happen. Christianity, after all, is recognizing that we all fall short, and we ought to focus on our own sanctification while we lift each other up. John Chrysostom is by far my favorite ancient author regarding Christian marriage. If my wife doesn't want me to lead, then I should work on being the kind of man that you can't help but WANT to lead. If I say I'll handle something, it shall be done and done well. Lighten my wife's burdens, help out at home, being a shield between the comfort of the home and the chaos that's the outside world. Things like that.
I've been following exorcists. Much of what they uncover extends from the effects of Original Sin. I've never been a fundamentalist, but I believe the story of Adam and Eve is far more than just a story. The sin of Adam, they say, is a man's desire for his wife. Not selfless love, but the constant temptation to derive pleasure from her and to avoid responsibility. The sin of Eve is a woman's desire to manipulate, control and dominate her husband. Both sins come from fear of losing the other. The writings of St Paul, regarding wives to be submissive to their husbands and husbands to care for their wives as if they were their own flesh challenge both these sins.
The submission answer or riddle is clear when we understand Jesus and what it means to die "for the church". Men are to put their sins to death on the cross with Christ (and even pay the price to put their bride's sins to death as Jesus did), so sin does not enter into the sacred marriage union through him or remain there because of the bride or the husband. Such death for the wife does NOT mean relinquishing every aspect of who the man is (that makes up his personality and preferences) that are not sinful. We yield to and worship Jesus Christ as our Lord and Savior, not our wife (or anyone else)! In Christ, Andrew
I only really ever knew one man who met that ideal of the Lord as a spouse and father and sadly hes still very missed years after he passed, but those type of people are very very rare, the one who would truly risk all for their partner or children or those they love. The world is becoming more evil and few people are truly filled with Gods love anymore. Its a blessing to have the faith. Those type of people who are after the Lords heart leave a legacy that cannot be replaced long since they are gone from this world. Just like Lord Jesus. Everybody still talking about Him 2k years after he died. They will still be until he returns.
There's a lot of talking, but no one is explaining what they mean by "submission". The few times I've heard a definition from other people, they typically list things like kindness and empathy... which are traits we should all strive for. That's not what it means to submit to someone. Not being mean to your spouse, isn't "submitting" to them. Agreeing to a trade of housework from the woman for stable income from the man, isn't "submitting". Can anyone here explain what is actually meant by the word "submission" in the Christian marital context? Please and thank you.
To obey respect and serve, I guess love as well from the wifes side He has to have Christ as His head because if he mistreats his wife God wont hear his prayers. Ie he has to be a believer in Christ who actually does respect himself and God and others and lives a life of integrity. Submission, Its a mutual thing with rights and responsibilities from both sides. Wife submit to husband, husband submit to christ. Employee or servant submit to employer and boss and boss submit to Christ It all works when each one does his part meets the others needs. Ie Proverbs 31 wife is the standard for wives too. Problem arises when one of the parties steps out of the authority of God or never submitted to Christ in first place.
Ok, but what does it look like for a wife to "obey" her husband? I hear the word "obey" a lot in these discussions but no one has any examples of what that looks like. And, you said that respect and serving are submitting to someone. No, no it isn't. Again, being a decent person to your spouse and loving them in all the ways they deserve, is not the same as "submitting" to them. I keep on seeing these words being used as synonyms for submission with no examples. @@heartofpuregold
Outside of a kinky context, which I think is actually at the root of it for a lot of people (maybe I can elaborate on that later), I am really just using the Merriam Webster definition which is along the lines of being compliant and obeying someone who is literally or presumably in authority.@@agnusdeiii
"As the Church submits to Christ, so also wives should submit to their husbands." In the same way that the Church trusts that Christ will always be there to love, lead, guide, help, comfort, protect, and provide for the Church, wives should also believe this of their husbands. If you know what it's like to be under the authority of an excellent coach or teacher or boss or commanding officer, then it's something like that.
"As the Church submits to Christ, so also wives should submit to their husbands." In the same way that the Church trusts that Christ will always be there to love, lead, guide, help, comfort, protect, and provide for the Church, wives should also believe this of their husbands. If you know what it's like to be under the authority of an excellent coach or teacher or boss or commanding officer, then it's something like that.
@PintsWithAquinas will you do a video where you discuss what does it mean in practice that a husband loves his wife like Christ loves His church? I am really frustrated when the demands are only for the women.
The man is the head of the family, the woman is the neck... the heart. You need both to exist and cooperate for the common good, but within an order with proper distinctions and relations, both need to be virtuous and prudent in Christ.
A buddy of mine, “thought” he ruled the roost, he always said, when I get home, my dinner is on the table! I finally said, you know what the truth really is? YOU come straight home after work! She’s ruling the roost! Then after it settled in a bit I let him know that both can be true, it can make both people happy, sometimes people actually love their traditional roles.
I’d love to hear you interview Dr. Jody Lewis on this topic. She’s an Assistant Professor of Sacred Scripture and Patrology at the House of Dominican Studies, she and her husband (professor at Catholic University of America) gave a joint lecture on the topic of male headship for the Thomistic Institute in 2021.
Other than, "Don't move in together before getting married." The only relationship advice I feel confident in giving is this: "Finding the right person is one thing, being the right person is another."
husband needs to be the protector and provider of their wives. Also, they need to help her and be their companion for everything. Wives need to follow their husbands and obey them by serving them. Both need to serve each other.
Nope, the text does not mean obey. To see obedience and authority in these verses is to read them through the lenses of the sinful, fallen world that caters to male-entitlement. These verses are just about loving one another as Christ teaches. Anyone who reads obedience and authority into these verses doesn't really understand Christ and his teachings, and our churches have a great many who really don't understand Christ (see the rise in Christian Nationalism).
Eph 5:22 (NKJV) "Wives, submit to your own husbands, as to the Lord. " Then, backup and read the verse immediately before this (5:21), which says "...submitting to one another in the fear of God." Marriage is about mutual submission.
Exactly. Give in to one another, take care of one another. This is just an example of Christ's command to love one another with aspects of femininity and masculinity thrown in, but yes, we submit to each other.
Women were advised to be submissive to their husbands, and men were advised to love their wives as Christ loved His Church. Christ died for that Church. Men earn that submission with a committed imitation of Christ.
I'd disagree with that submission is earnt. Of course, husbands should never take their wives' submission for granted. Submission is a wives' duty in the same way it is all Catholics duty to be submissive to the headship of the Pope. The Pope doesn't earn our submission and following. It is commanded by God and is our duty in order that we remain under the influence and protection of God, since we then remain in the structure which he has established, and because it enables the Pope to actually tend to and feed us, his sheep. So, a wives submission to their husbans is not on a condition that their husband will actually live up to their duty in the same way a husband's duty to protect, provide and lead his wife and children is not something he has the right to forsake if his wife is not living up to her duty or for any other circumstance.
A secular video explained how femininity receives and supports while masculinity is motivated by and enjoys doing, providing for, and protecting loved ones. That really helped me understand the Ephesian verses. That and how it's all about Christ's command to love one another. Some read authority and obedience into the text when it really is not there. That's reading the verses through the lenses of the power-hungry, fallen world. Christ said to love on another, and Paul is giving us an example that touches on aspects of femininity and masculinity, all under the umbrella of equality: 5:21 - submit to one another. The start of chapter 5 even lays the ground work: be like God, and then it elaborates.
I think people need to also put a "clause" on this Mom staying home with the kids. I don't know any 1 income households (where the man makes less than 60k ) that can sustain a family? Today, the cost of living makes it nearly impossible for a middle class household to be able to have the wife stay home with their kids
I make less than 60k one income and have a wife and 5 children. So now you know one. I drive a 15 year old car and we don't go on vacation and live in a cheap part of the usa
I want to confess that I have an "ick" with men saying "You should submit to me." It gives me the same feeling as when I'm about to do the dishes and then someone says "You should do the dishes" and now I suddenly don't want to, lol.
Well..I know Good Men who aren't "idiots" or "bad." The Feminist women.. want to Dominate and some Young women, simply, are "ball breakers" these days and proud of it.
@@maryangelica5319 No it isn't. It is from the late Middle English word submitten, which was borrowed from the Latin word submittere, which is the infinitive of submittō (“place under, yield, surrender”), which is the combined form made from sub (“under, from below”) + mitto (“to send, to put, to place”). It means to place oneself under or yield to another. This new etymology is just that, new, which is the opposite of what an etymology is supposed to be. Also the Greek word behind "submit" in Eph 5:22 is hypotassō. This word was a Greek military term meaning "to arrange [troop divisions] in a military fashion under the command of a leader". In non-military use, it was "a voluntary attitude of giving in, cooperating, assuming responsibility, and carrying a burden". It means, to subordinate, put in subjection, to subject one's self, to obey, to submit to one's control, and be subject to another's authority. You are simply wrong and have been deceived.
Only the sinful, fallen world sees obedience and authority when it isn't in the text. These verses are all about Christ's command to love one another. This can be difficult for those who don't understand Christ and want to live in their own selfish interests.
@@Himmiefan Whatever relationship the Church has with Christ, who is God, wives are to have with their husbands. I don't know about you, but in my theology the church submits to God, God loves the church but does not in any way submit to it. Ephesians 5:22-25 "Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as unto the Lord. *For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body. Therefore as the church is subject unto Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in every thing.* Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it"
I'm not a biblical scholar, but has it struck anyone else that the same word was used by God in His statement to Eve, "Your urge shall be for your husband ..." and the word He used to warn Cain, "sin lies in wait ... it surge is for you"? I don't know if it's significant or not but I often wonder if it was prophetic of the "battle of the sexes" and should be considered in the same way as Jesus' statement that "the poor you will always have with you."
To summit: to give, to allow To be subordinated : to be under the authority of another’s will, hierarchical form of relationships, not just in marriage. Eve was to give to and allow Adam to lead by reasoning and to help him . Adam was told to love his wife. Thank you
Sorry, but the text does not mean obey. To see obedience and authority in these verses is to read them through the lenses of the sinful, fallen world that caters to male-entitlement. These verses are just about loving one another as Christ teaches. Anyone who reads obedience and authority into these verses doesn't really understand Christ and his teachings, and our churches have a great many who really don't understand Christ (see the rise in Christian Nationalism).
I think even saying that there is an element of mutual submission muddies the waters. What men do for their wives is different than what women do for their husbands.
Define what his idea of love is. If a man is worthy of being a good self sacrificing leader and acts Christ-like, even strong headed women will listen to him, husband or not. I know some women who are submissive but their husbands are abusive, one even choked his wife when she was pregnant, and this was a man that goes to church. Thank goodness St. Paul said that singleness is a gift, matrimony isnt as a big deal as so many want to make it out to be. St. Joahn Chrysostom confirmed this too
I think historically populations were viewed in terms of households, which is why men were the only ones who could vote - because they were the representatives of their households. In this view of the world where the family was the fundamental unit rather than the individual it makes sense that there would need to be a hierarchy between the family members. So you couldn't have a wife contradicting her husband politically, for instance. It wouldn't work. The family has to be one cohesive whole.
I found this interesting. I'm looking into this subject "What is God's Will for men & women." I have been for a while now. On John Chrysostom - he was an early church father and as far as I'm aware the early church fathers universally believed that men were created superior to women. That this was a matter of creation and that the women's subordination to her husband was because of "eves curse" I wonder what John Chrysostom believed? I love John's words that you mentioned in this video. I also wonder though in his world a Master should be taught to treat his slave very well & the Slave should submit to his Master. Also taught in Ephesians Chapters 5 & 6 following the Claus to "submit to each other" in ch5:vs21 Today we interpret very differently. That the genders are created equal (with unequal roles because men lead lovingly & women submit respectfully) this is God's Will. However slavery was never God's will in creation but following through on (the curse of Ham) I love St Gregory on speaking out against slavery. Was he the only Father to do so at the time? I've been rambling enough.... I think my main point is that I see the Patriarchal & Slavery often next to each other in the Bible (in Peter's Epistle he is talking about Slaves submitting to bad Masters then says "in the same way wives submit to your own husbands" Today we generally believe Slavery is God speaking the best into an institution that is not Gods Will but "redeems" it speaking into it. However the Patriarch and women being submissive to men in the home & church many believe to be Gods Will for all times in all places. Why is that? Could you share your thoughts and God bless you I love your content.
You've hit the nail on the head. People read Ephesians through the lenses of the sinful, fallen world that until the last few decades, at least here in the West, was very sexist and promoted male-entitlement. So yes, when they read those verses, they automatically assume that wives obey and husbands rule. But, people who truly understand Christ and are guided by the Holy Sprit, see that those verses are an example of how to love one another as Christ teaches. Did Christ teach that wives obey and husbands rule? No, and Paul cannot determine doctrine, only explain it. Christ, though, did teach that we are to love one another as we love ourselves. This can be very difficult for self-centered people to accept because they don't want to submit to one another.
@@sitka49 Yeah, hon, you can't just lift verses out of the context of the chapter, book, and situation Paul was talking about. God doesn't approve of using scripture for our own selfish reasons.
To those that find the Bible verse to submit to their husbands offensive, it's because as a rule they don't and make the home a difficult place for men to live which results in pain for everyone.
I was wincing watching two people, walking on egg shells around such an culturally sensitive topic. You were not navigating a spiritual matter but a social matter in a society that has openly rebelled against God. There are Christians and people of other faiths in other cultures which have not surrendered and do not wish to adopt our culture, yet despite seeing how broken we are we question their adherence to “outdated” ideas.
It's a true rebellion against God to see obedience and authority in these verses when it's not there. It's true rebellion to not see Christ's command to love one another. It's true rebellion to use these verses for selfish gain.
Submission means "being under the mission", yes that's right. But the "mission" of a husband is to be CHRIST to His wife, and Christ did far more than merely take up the cross for the church. The very next thing it mentions is washing... that means to cleanse, instruct, guide and correct. Christ didn't merely take up the cross for his church. He leads, corrects, disciplines, instructs, chastises, reprimands, demands obedience and calls for repentance. Those are all part of "cross bearing" on the part of Christ or the husband.
I for the longest time have been a nice guy. But im discovering that nice guys doesn't equate good man. Gud intentions dont save you or your wife. I find myself trying to please her and and actually being irresponsible while doing so. Instead of tons of treats and gifts i could be investing in something more beneficial to both of us. Anyway hopefully someone gets that.🤙
@@mellieg.7543 My point is that OP uses the story of Adam and Eve to justify his argument. But that story involves Adam and Eve, the first humans, who had three sons IIRC. How did they populate the earth exactly?
It appears that your conclusion of this bible passage, is that the wife must be submissive to evil, if the husband is acting evilly - what fodder for both radical feminism and responsible feminism, and clearly not true in light of the biblical message throughout the bible to submit to God and not submit to evil. You got off track when you said that the passage on marriage submission cannot possibly mean that the only time that a wife would have to be submissive to her husband is when the husband is perfect, which would mean that the wife would never have to be submissive to her husband because there is no such thing as a husband who is as loving to his wife as Christ is loving to his church, and of course Christ is perfectively loving to His church. There are two problems with your conclusion. One the definition of slavery and two the definition of marriage - or at least sacred life-long Catholic sacramental marriage as Christ taught - dictating what kind of husband and what kind of wife, even if imperfect which they both are, and each has no right to expect the other to be, but every right to expect the other to do their best to be, even if it means asking the parish priest for assistance from time to time. In context the entire bible states that we must give up ourselves to follow Christ - spiritual slavery to God - both His teachings and his behavior, and for those of us sinners - all of us - who are not perfect there is the sacrament of confession or reconciliation. Essentially, we - both males and females - must dedicate our lives to replace our natural vices and vicious human tendencies and replace them with and acquire a life of virtues. Also, the purpose of marriage - sacred marriage - is to bear and raise children with the same inspiration, unencumbered by contraception, - a life-time job, each child with the God given right to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness to be and to become who God created the child to become. So, slavery to God does not have the connotation of abuse as mankind’s slavery entails in practice, but not necessarily as initially understood. Sacred marriage is the dedication of two people a man and a woman to each other for that purpose for the benefit of society and future generations with the understanding that the two will raise the children with the same understanding of instilling in them the virtues and a virtuous lifestyle (child baptism) - and free from the threat of divorce in the middle of serving the purpose. Of course, this purpose cannot be fulfilled unless marriage is only between a man and a woman. In marriage, the wife of course will be the marriage partner to bear the burden of continuously carrying, bearing and nurturing the children. Keep in mind none of this labor is paid for by modern society, but it should be. Society benefits from virtuous adults. Thus, the burden of supporting the family financially must fall on the nonbearing marriage partner. Thus, as long as the male marriage partner is doing his job the female partner must be submissive to him within the spousal context where he makes decisions which enable him to find a job or be employed as he attempts to fulfill his mission to the family. There is no obligation to submission if the husband is not fulfilling his obligation to this wife and family. Of course if you add the concept of divorce and contraception, in our protestant society an country, there is no longer a sacred marriage, and the balance of power shifts to the person who is paid by society to provide financially for the family, when he is not, unless of course the divorce or separation is economically unincentivized by requiring that the money after the divorce or separation is required to be placed in a common account for the benefit of the nonearning spouse and the benefit of the children’s upbringing and necessary education, which in our protestant society, it is not. Further, if marriage is solely for the pleasure of the parties because they are “in love,” then the marriage may be for not disturbing a career, living a life of luxury at the expense of those raising a family, and thus a contraceptive or homosexual marriage, without the sacred purpose. So, if at any time the husband is not acting in response to his dedication to the purpose of a sacred marriage, the wife has no duty under the bible in proper context to be submissive or obey her husband. We then are suffering from a protestant driven divorceable marriage, and a wife who is left fending for herself and thus needs to be “equal” in society, especially in her ability to compete in the marketplace, have a career, and especially if she is still burdened with the slavery of raising of the multiple children on her own. Thus, uninspired human society forces a culture of contraception, unsacred marriages and homosexual marriages searching for “equality” or equal treatment in an uninspired society, including employers who are seeking to maximize their profits at the expense of raising children, in promotion of the abortion culture we have today. Anyone who supports this culture as conservative economists is pro life in name only. The pro-life culture has to pay the individuals dedicating and sacrificing their lives to raise the future generations at the expense of the selfish people who are making more money dedicating themselves to their selfish individual goals.
This is horrific. What if a Husband wants sex and the wife does not. I guess she should just submit or he should force himself on her but it's not rape cause, she should submit and they are married so it's her duty or some bullshit like that right?
@@maryrankin9869Unfortunately not all conservatives or Catholics understand the subtleties of what submission means in the marital context, and many will use it in the full literal sense, so the above fear is valid.
@@adambrocklehurst4211exactly! I’m kind of tired of all this gaslighting, when we clearly see many men who are very scary in their views and obsession on submission. I married a wonderful man and have a happy marriage. But to claim all will be great if only these stupid women would submit to any man because ALL men are these holy amazing men is ridiculous. Many men are absolute scum even when they represent themselves as godly men.
Just like his prohibitions on women speaking in church, Paul's command for wives to submit to their husbands was largely influenced by the Greco-Roman culture in which he lived, and therefore just like the Founding Fathers' less than progressive statements on race, these verses should be viewed as nothing more than relics of a time when women were not regarded as equal members of society. (Yeah, at no time did Jesus make such statements, nor can than they be found anywhere in the Old Testament.)
really appreciate this talk but please with the swearing i like to watch this with kiddos around and i dont mind some sexual talk because thats more explainable but language is much harder. Thank you! i can also just bow out and not watch this with my kids in earshot im fine with that just offering constructive critisism take it or leave it
The submission will only work if the wife isn't working and the lifestyle is good. Otherwise, why would a woman submit to a man when shes paying the bills. Its better to be single than married and working.
Women have always had jobs, even in the Bible. Look at the women in the book of Judges. Many female saints had actual jobs. The only difference between today and centuries past is that the money wasn't hers to do what she wanted with and she didn't move out of her parents house at 18.
I know this sounds rude, but I think the popularity of BDSM shows that at some level a pretty large percent of women want to be submissive, but it turns excessive, like with an appetite if you haven't eaten in a long time.
I think that's because of how prevalent pornography is in western society. Do you think any person wants to undergo acts of sexual violence during times of intimacy with their partner? Give me a break.
Sometimes submitting to your husband means giving him the silent treatment until he apologizes. And insisting that he be the spiritual leader. Even though so many men want to be lazy and let their wives do all the leading.
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There’s honestly so much freedom in submission to your husband, and it helps turn him into the man God made him to be. It’s so countercultural and so counterintuitive but it’s so healing for the toxicity of modern marriage.
This is horriric
@@Demortixx the fact that you find that horrific is in itself horrific. Good luck, sounds like you need it.
I submit to no man
I’m not submitting to anyone. Every time I’ve been a submissive doormat it’s screwed me over. With my emotionally abusive ex, my extremely strict parents, and the people who bullied me growing up, I was a submissive doormat and it put me in worse situations. I refuse to clean up a man’s messes or submit.
@@soylatte1288 in my marriage I am and my husband we both are very disagreeable, oppinionaited ppl, we usually talk everything out and he is my advisor number 1 and I am his, but when we have something where I don't have a strong oppinion, like either one works, I let him decide on that, and yes he makes more decitions, especially the big ones, I am usually too undecisive on those, like we were talking that we would want to buy a puppy for a long time, we knew what breed and everything, but I thought that it maybe be after like half a year, like something in the future, one day he came from work and said let's go to buy the puppy because I have a contact, that day we came home with a dog. I mean and there were a lot of bigger decitions like these, where I thought yeah all good but maybe a little further down the line, but he was like lets do it now, and I am like ok, fine by me.
I mean someone has to make a damn decition you know.
Can we call that submission ? 🤔
"The wife will be able to completely submit when she sees her husband sacrificing completely"
- more or less exact quote from Fr Ripperger
lol. Antiquated nonsense.
@@katenoke1571 Fair- that's not the best way to say the thing. But thinking of it in another way- men submit all the time. One of my favorite parts of the recent Barbie movie was the depiction of the board of Mattel as a bunch of yes-men following along behind Will Farrell. Submission, for men, is normal; it's how male interaction is structured, but determining who submits to whom, to a significant degree ("the bros" are a different matter, of course). Thus, as I believe Abp. Fulton Sheen put it- When Paul said wives submit to your husbands and husbands love your wives, what he was really doing was telling the man and the woman that they must do what's hard; they must love the other in the way the other understands love. Man must give to woman what she needs- love and sacrifice, and woman must give to man what he needs- submission and respect. Man must put his desires aside and take responsibility, and woman must put her desires aside and allow herself to be taken responsibility for.
Another commentator put it this way- the takeaway that we really need to have when we say that the husband is first in authority, is the fact that the wife really is second! She isn't a doormat, she isn't a slave- she's the second in command, and ought to be ready and able to assume command of the family should the husband ever be incapable of doing so, due to sickness or injury or being called away to war, etc. Some enjoy pointing out that the man has the final say in the household. Fine- that's his duty, but if he doesn't take council from his wife, the second in command, and often the more knowledgeable in matters directly pertaining to the family, before making a decision, then he is a fool. Partially because he has not taken advantage her skills and experience, and so left a great resource unused. Partially because the result will be that his wife doesn't know why he makes the choices he does, and will have difficulty continuing any projects that the family has started if he gets sick or has to leave. Proverbs 31 describes a woman who is given money by her husband, and she responds by not only taking care of all the family and the servants, but also going off and investing it without even asking his permission- one can only imagine that this partnership must have been incredible; for a woman to be both willing to manage the home and also ambitious enough for her family to go find a good investment and purchase it? Think of the man who must have been her husband, who she would be willing to call her lord, and who considered himself so fortunate to call her his lady, that he would brag about her to his friends at the town gate. Not simply mention what she was up to, mind you, but praise her to his friends. When, has that ever, been shown in pop culture? Hmm, maybe It's a Wonderful Life? That's probably about it.
I was going to mention, as examples, how men act together- for example, Frodo and Sam, where Frodo is technically in charge and Sam is just the gardener, or in the recent Masters of the Air how the pilot and copilot interact. Or any similar movie where there's a difference of power- Master and Commander, Ford vs Ferrari, etc. All of those interactions would technically involve submission from the person with less authority, but it isn't a "slavery"-style submission, as it is often talked about when discussing a husband having authority. A good example of that relationship between a husband and wife done well is in A Quiet Place.
Anyway, that's my novel- if you made it here, I appreciate it, and hope it was intriguing in some way. May God bless you!
@@a.drozda8465 I appreciate that you put a lot of effort into your post. However, as someone who's living in the real world, I understand that women being submissive is about creating a social structure, a hierarchy, where roles are clearly defined, mostly for the benefit of men.
@@a.drozda8465 in the military and in companies, there's a hierarchy based on merit. Promotions are earned. That's not the case in the submissive/dominant relationships you're promoting. Men don't have to do anything except get married to earn their authority. I reject that. It might make them feel powerful, but the other person in the relationship is reduced to being a non entity.
@@katenoke1571 - Hmm... tell me more about that, if you're inclined, because it doesn't seem to follow, at least over in Catholic-land (which is a good deal different than the rest of the world, so feel free to correct me if you weren't talking about Catholics specifically).
And I say that for two reasons-
First, in Catholicism, women aren't *generally* submissive to men; just specifically. That is, they're submissive to their fathers, as normal, unless there's a good reason not to be, as normal, and then, they're submissive to whoever they decide to be committed to- an abbess, if they become a nun, a husband, if she decides to marry, or the local bishop, technically, if she decides to remain single. Which is quite a bit of freedom compared to other cultures, and most of that was for protection; abbey walls didn't exist because nuns were escaping. Even points where women were prevented from owning a business or something of that nature was largely due to dangers incurred in business dealings- even merchants traveled with armed escorts at one time. And, as soon as that was no longer necessary, we see Catholic women starting to own businesses (consider St Zelie Martin, the mother of St. Therese of Lisieux, who ran a very successful lace-making business, to the point that her husband eventually shut down his watchmaking business to become a salesman for her.)
And again, all these are equally applicable to Catholic men, who are also obedient to the local bishop, etc, and the local government authorities, having to go fight in wars and whatnot, which were more common than usually considered.
(Oh, and there is the consideration that even in Medieval times, getting told off by a nun was not fun, to say nothing of getting told off by a single woman who wasn't actually a nun, even though she wore a habit around- which is St. Catherine of Sienna; not a nun, told off the pope, and various other religious leaders (fairly common for Medieval women to do; a number of female saints in that camp). Also, the concept of "mitered abbesses" which were abbesses of abbeys that had been around long enough to receive extra status from the Pope; basically it meant that, within the abbey, even the local bishop was subordinate to the abbess. There are a couple mitered abbesses in the US actually; one of them is St. Walburga in northern Colorado.)
Second, some of that "protective" aspect of masculinity remains; if I were able to protect my wife from danger, and chose not to, resulting in her injury or death, my status as a man would basically be revoked entirely. Thus, part of the "authority" aspect of the husband is that the wife needs to be in a stance of being willing to follow, because if I say jump and she says "what if I don't want to", that might be all the time it takes for her to get hurt and me to not be able to protect her. It's like if a member of the Secret Service told the President to duck, and he refused and got shot- it's very difficult to protect someone who isn't willing to accept the protection. It's pragmatic to have the person who is going to be stopping the spears and the bullets in charge of the group.
But again, I don't have any idea whether you're Catholic or not, what your perspective is, etc. I've given examples of men being submissive to men, men being submissive to women, and husbands being submissive in appropriate aspects to their wives, which seems like a fairly complete picture of the various aspects of relational interaction in the Catholic Church (not that everyone knows about these things, but Matt Fradd probably does).
And, to be entirely fair, none of this matters in relation to Protestant Christianity (who largely don't have nuns, or even single women as a vocation, and so traditionally don't have any significant authority structure for women to occupy), or secular society, which is largely pagan at best (I'm using the word in a technical Philosophy of Religion sense) and therefore effectively survival-of-the-fittest/anything goes/take what you can; give nothing back (only a slight simplification- newpolity.com/blog/the-perversion-of-the-priesthood ). So, if you aren't speaking with a view to specifically Catholic culture, none of what I said above matters. Again though, all the best and may God bless you!
Biblical submission is such a beautiful thing ❤ but because of that, the enemy has done a great job of distorting what it is meant to be. That's why so many "trad" pages online are full of misogynistic men who want a woman to Lord over.
Those are the men I wouldn't entrust myself to, for sure. I'm not about to put myself in a situation that involves submitting to a man I don't like or trust, so there is no way I would marry one of them
I get the feeling a lot of men are exploiting the domestic labor of their wives under the guise of a "traditional marriage". Free housekeeper, free childcare, .... list goes on.
@@thatsfunny2051 absolutely
Those are the "Christians" who don't understand Christianity or don't want to truly understand Christ and his teachings. They desperately want Ephesians to be about authority and obedience while it's actually about loving one another as Christ teaches.
Great discussion. Submission is NEVER something that should be imposed or enforced onto someone. That not only takes away their dignity and self determination, but opens the door to abuse of power. Submission is a GIFT to be given at will. Even our loving Father Jesus Christ does not force us to submit. We submit to Him out of LOVE because He loves us more than we can ever understand.
So, what happens if we refuse to submit to Jesus? I think I remember something about wailing and gnashing of teeth. But, maybe I got that wrong…
True. That us why the word is submit - hence done from the perapective of the one submitting.
But then one must ask one's self why one would refuse if this is the command and plan of God for our flourishing.
Isn't it that the insistence on self determination is what got us into this mess in the first place?
@@popebenedict7615 I totally see your point. There’s definitely good in choosing submission and I think it’s part of the natural law written into women. I just don’t think that should ever be coerced or enforced and the people who seem intent on that are not coming from the right place. He also tells us to submit to one another, not as a blanket statement but rather to encourage our meekness and sacrifice for one another. I do believe that self determination is critical to preventing abuse of power which is integral to human fallen nature.
Well, when you consent to marriage, then you consent to submission, so it can't be forced within the context of marriage, since you agreed to it
@@divinecomedian2 exactly. Submission is a gift, but also a debt. Something owed. And it is owed despite a spouse's imperfections or even sins. In these discussions you'll always see wives waiting and withholding submission until their husband "loves them like Christ." If that's what your submission is qualified with you'll never give it.
Hey Matt! Thank you for this. I really appreciate you guys.
I would like to say a few things on this topic. None against what you are saying, just some thoughts I have on the matter as it seems to be a frequent topic for discussion on a number of different podcasts.
I'm a life long Roman Catholic who greatly loves her faith. I want to be not only obedient to God, but also know and love him. It is why I've spent the last 15 years studying the Catholic faith. I'm nearly 31 now.
Over the last 15 years, I've watched many Catholic podcasts; you, Father Mike Schmidt, Micheal Lofton, Bishop Barron, Mother Angelica, Bishop Fulton Sheen, Scott Hahn, Jimmy Atkin, Trent Horn, the list goes on.
I've read some of the classic works by the saints, as well as a number of books on marriage, love, and sex written from the Catholic perspective. Theology of the Body being one of them. I'm currently working on the Bible in a Year, and will be starting Catechism in a Year soon.
I'm telling you all this because I want you to know I have some knowledge of the Catholic faith, and I'm not just spouting a personal opinion. That is not to say I know everything, because I most certainly do not. I'm always looking to understand and learn more about our faith.
Now, beyond what you guys discussed in this video, I can't find an official church teaching or biblical passage that specifically lays out the EXACT roles of men and women in the context of marriage. Many of the people mentioned above have done similar videos, some explain things a little different, but it's always in the same vein. Others have discussed the various beliefs different church fathers have held about the roles of men and women.
It's because of all this that I believe the way a couple decides to manage their household is between them and God. It's one of the many freedoms we have been given as His creations.
I agree that many women have been manipulated into believing that submitting to their husband is some kind of slavery, or that somehow it lowers them to the same status as a child. They're wrong, and don't know or understand the truths the church has to offer.
That being said, too many men and women do not have a clear understanding of what submission means, especially the biblical definition of submission, so they try to apply their own logic to the situation and call it either a biblical or church teaching.
Or they have read some of the beliefs the church fathers have held on this topic, and take them as church teaching vs. personal opinion.
The church fathers were saints and incredibly wise, but the church doesn't teach us that every word that ever left their mouths was a teaching or line of thought that should be repeated as if it is a teaching.
I believe this happens because of three things:
1) Human brokenness. We are always seeking some form of control over our own lives or the lives of others.
2) Spiritual immaturity. Many people can't understand that God is not asking us all to do the exact same thing. Not every marriage should be run the exact same way.
3) They don't have a clear understanding of their faith. Too many people will just believe whatever another person tells them without consulting the church first.
As an example, I have personally known many Roman Catholics who cannot understand why the Pope allows Eastern Catholics to worship the way they do. They think that all Catholics need to be practicing the Catholic faith the exact same way for it to be valid. If it looks different then what they are used to, it can't be right.
I think this applies here because I've noticed a lot of people, especially those who identify as Protestant or traditional Catholic, talk about submission and a man and a woman's place as though there is some kind of official doctrine on the matter beyond the stuff you and Dr. Gress were discussing. I love the traditions and teachings of the church, but I want the traditions and teachings the church actually upholds and teaches, and not just a personal opinion someone confused as a church teaching.
Anyway, that's all. Sorry that was so long.
Have you read the sections on the duties of husbands and wives from the Roman Catechism (catechism of the council of trent)? That’s the closest thing I think we have to a definitive, infallible statement from the church on the specific roles of each spouse, and it’s very clear and detailed!
Good for you on your search for truth and deepening of your faith. I believe she covers this in minute 2. The church doesn't necessarily say exact roles or anything via a dogma for the reasons you mention. Thing are complex and there are always exceptions to "the rule", but it teaches what is usually best for most. For the exceptions, I think, that is why we are encouraged to take up our cross and realize it is not always about just us and our own happiness in this life. It's humbling and an example to those around us if we endure and trust in the lord. Even if we may not get praise and recognition from the people around us. God sees. Humanity will never be perfect in this life and the heretical cycles will be recycled probably many times over. We do the best we can and try not to lead others into error or scandal. God bless you for taking the time to look into and learn about your faith. That in itself is a great (and needed) example today. We are the generations that believe we are the smartest and therefore don't need God, but we are actually the exact opposite. We need more humility and openness to seeing outside ourselves and our own desires. 🙂
Good for you for trying to figure it out and keeping the journey onward and upward. I too need more education on the submission part. I have studied marriage for many years and still don;t have it down pat.
I certainly didn't read as much as you, but by looking at what the sources I've read (old and modern), I came away with "submission" ultimately being down to two things:
1. Letting your husband lead. If he says "Let me handle it" you let him handle it AS LONG AS it's not sinful or unloving (i.e. damaging to anyone)
2. Be respectful and not be stubborn.
They all also make it clear that it's not at all like slavery or blind obedience. It should be liberating and relieving.
I also came out with the impression, like you, that the specifics are down to each couple to decide.
If/when I get married I plan to demand absolutely nothing from my wife. I'll do my duty of leading, whether she follows me is up to her. If she's firm on something not happening, then it won't happen. Christianity, after all, is recognizing that we all fall short, and we ought to focus on our own sanctification while we lift each other up.
John Chrysostom is by far my favorite ancient author regarding Christian marriage. If my wife doesn't want me to lead, then I should work on being the kind of man that you can't help but WANT to lead. If I say I'll handle something, it shall be done and done well. Lighten my wife's burdens, help out at home, being a shield between the comfort of the home and the chaos that's the outside world. Things like that.
Sounds like you have a good handle on this. And I wish you God Speed and God Bless.@@crusaderACR
I've been following exorcists. Much of what they uncover extends from the effects of Original Sin. I've never been a fundamentalist, but I believe the story of Adam and Eve is far more than just a story.
The sin of Adam, they say, is a man's desire for his wife. Not selfless love, but the constant temptation to derive pleasure from her and to avoid responsibility.
The sin of Eve is a woman's desire to manipulate, control and dominate her husband. Both sins come from fear of losing the other. The writings of St Paul, regarding wives to be submissive to their husbands and husbands to care for their wives as if they were their own flesh challenge both these sins.
This is eye opening. I myself have been doing that. Thanks for the heads up.
God bless you
The submission answer or riddle is clear when we understand Jesus and what it means to die "for the church". Men are to put their sins to death on the cross with Christ (and even pay the price to put their bride's sins to death as Jesus did), so sin does not enter into the sacred marriage union through him or remain there because of the bride or the husband. Such death for the wife does NOT mean relinquishing every aspect of who the man is (that makes up his personality and preferences) that are not sinful. We yield to and worship Jesus Christ as our Lord and Savior, not our wife (or anyone else)!
In Christ,
Andrew
I only really ever knew one man who met that ideal of the Lord as a spouse and father and sadly hes still very missed years after he passed, but those type of people are very very rare, the one who would truly risk all for their partner or children or those they love. The world is becoming more evil and few people are truly filled with Gods love anymore. Its a blessing to have the faith. Those type of people who are after the Lords heart leave a legacy that cannot be replaced long since they are gone from this world. Just like Lord Jesus. Everybody still talking about Him 2k years after he died. They will still be until he returns.
There's a lot of talking, but no one is explaining what they mean by "submission". The few times I've heard a definition from other people, they typically list things like kindness and empathy... which are traits we should all strive for. That's not what it means to submit to someone. Not being mean to your spouse, isn't "submitting" to them. Agreeing to a trade of housework from the woman for stable income from the man, isn't "submitting". Can anyone here explain what is actually meant by the word "submission" in the Christian marital context? Please and thank you.
To obey respect and serve, I guess love as well from the wifes side He has to have Christ as His head because if he mistreats his wife God wont hear his prayers. Ie he has to be a believer in Christ who actually does respect himself and God and others and lives a life of integrity. Submission, Its a mutual thing with rights and responsibilities from both sides. Wife submit to husband, husband submit to christ.
Employee or servant submit to employer and boss and boss submit to Christ
It all works when each one does his part meets the others needs.
Ie Proverbs 31 wife is the standard for wives too. Problem arises when one of the parties steps out of the authority of God or never submitted to Christ in first place.
Ok, but what does it look like for a wife to "obey" her husband? I hear the word "obey" a lot in these discussions but no one has any examples of what that looks like. And, you said that respect and serving are submitting to someone. No, no it isn't. Again, being a decent person to your spouse and loving them in all the ways they deserve, is not the same as "submitting" to them. I keep on seeing these words being used as synonyms for submission with no examples. @@heartofpuregold
Outside of a kinky context, which I think is actually at the root of it for a lot of people (maybe I can elaborate on that later), I am really just using the Merriam Webster definition which is along the lines of being compliant and obeying someone who is literally or presumably in authority.@@agnusdeiii
"As the Church submits to Christ, so also wives should submit to their husbands." In the same way that the Church trusts that Christ will always be there to love, lead, guide, help, comfort, protect, and provide for the Church, wives should also believe this of their husbands. If you know what it's like to be under the authority of an excellent coach or teacher or boss or commanding officer, then it's something like that.
"As the Church submits to Christ, so also wives should submit to their husbands." In the same way that the Church trusts that Christ will always be there to love, lead, guide, help, comfort, protect, and provide for the Church, wives should also believe this of their husbands. If you know what it's like to be under the authority of an excellent coach or teacher or boss or commanding officer, then it's something like that.
@PintsWithAquinas will you do a video where you discuss what does it mean in practice that a husband loves his wife like Christ loves His church?
I am really frustrated when the demands are only for the women.
The conversation is so good at 7:00 on. It's the crux of the matter. GREAT job interviewing, Matt!
The man is the head of the family, the woman is the neck... the heart. You need both to exist and cooperate for the common good, but within an order with proper distinctions and relations, both need to be virtuous and prudent in Christ.
A buddy of mine, “thought” he ruled the roost, he always said, when I get home, my dinner is on the table! I finally said, you know what the truth really is? YOU come straight home after work! She’s ruling the roost! Then after it settled in a bit I let him know that both can be true, it can make both people happy, sometimes people actually love their traditional roles.
I’d love to hear you interview Dr. Jody Lewis on this topic. She’s an Assistant Professor of Sacred Scripture and Patrology at the House of Dominican Studies, she and her husband (professor at Catholic University of America) gave a joint lecture on the topic of male headship for the Thomistic Institute in 2021.
Other than, "Don't move in together before getting married." The only relationship advice I feel confident in giving is this:
"Finding the right person is one thing, being the right person is another."
husband needs to be the protector and provider of their wives. Also, they need to help her and be their companion for everything. Wives need to follow their husbands and obey them by serving them. Both need to serve each other.
Absolutely not
Guessing you are not happily married…
Nope, the text does not mean obey. To see obedience and authority in these verses is to read them through the lenses of the sinful, fallen world that caters to male-entitlement. These verses are just about loving one another as Christ teaches. Anyone who reads obedience and authority into these verses doesn't really understand Christ and his teachings, and our churches have a great many who really don't understand Christ (see the rise in Christian Nationalism).
Eph 5:22 (NKJV) "Wives, submit to your own husbands, as to the Lord. "
Then, backup and read the verse immediately before this (5:21), which says "...submitting to one another in the fear of God." Marriage is about mutual submission.
Exactly. Give in to one another, take care of one another. This is just an example of Christ's command to love one another with aspects of femininity and masculinity thrown in, but yes, we submit to each other.
YES thank you
A healthy marriage is a full partnership, with love, devotion, and compromise on both sides. It's not about one side "submitting" to the other.
Women were advised to be submissive to their husbands, and men were advised to love their wives as Christ loved His Church. Christ died for that Church. Men earn that submission with a committed imitation of Christ.
I'd disagree with that submission is earnt. Of course, husbands should never take their wives' submission for granted. Submission is a wives' duty in the same way it is all Catholics duty to be submissive to the headship of the Pope. The Pope doesn't earn our submission and following. It is commanded by God and is our duty in order that we remain under the influence and protection of God, since we then remain in the structure which he has established, and because it enables the Pope to actually tend to and feed us, his sheep.
So, a wives submission to their husbans is not on a condition that their husband will actually live up to their duty in the same way a husband's duty to protect, provide and lead his wife and children is not something he has the right to forsake if his wife is not living up to her duty or for any other circumstance.
@@csongorarpad4670Completely agree.
A secular video explained how femininity receives and supports while masculinity is motivated by and enjoys doing, providing for, and protecting loved ones. That really helped me understand the Ephesian verses. That and how it's all about Christ's command to love one another. Some read authority and obedience into the text when it really is not there. That's reading the verses through the lenses of the power-hungry, fallen world. Christ said to love on another, and Paul is giving us an example that touches on aspects of femininity and masculinity, all under the umbrella of equality: 5:21 - submit to one another. The start of chapter 5 even lays the ground work: be like God, and then it elaborates.
I think people need to also put a "clause" on this Mom staying home with the kids. I don't know any 1 income households (where the man makes less than 60k ) that can sustain a family? Today, the cost of living makes it nearly impossible for a middle class household to be able to have the wife stay home with their kids
I make less than 60k one income and have a wife and 5 children. So now you know one. I drive a 15 year old car and we don't go on vacation and live in a cheap part of the usa
@@geraldmurphy321 well then co sidereal yourself one of a minority.
The Proverbs 31 woman ran a business as did Lydia.
I want to confess that I have an "ick" with men saying "You should submit to me." It gives me the same feeling as when I'm about to do the dishes and then someone says "You should do the dishes" and now I suddenly don't want to, lol.
Yes lol
Did you go to school with my wife?
They're not stupid. They know that rearing children and keeping a house is like seven jobs in one. And that's work they'd rather not do.
Do you have the same feeling in regards to submitting to God?
@@babs420th9.... Working with cold, unsympathetic Strangers.. Always Competing..Pushing to Do well. IT'S NO PICNIC! 💥
I don't have a problem with submitting to my husband if I get married. But then again I don't plan to marry an idiot or a bad man.
Well..I know Good Men who aren't "idiots" or "bad." The Feminist women.. want to Dominate and some Young women, simply, are "ball breakers" these days and proud of it.
@@PhilAlumb Yeah, I get that. I don't have any interest in "wearing the pants". Sounds too tiring.
Lol, just lol.
Yes, I'm sure women "plan to" marry bad men. 🤦♀️
@@babs420th9 In my opinion, a lot of them sure do ignore an awful lot of red flags before their weddings
And insist that he be the spiritual leader! And give him the silent treatment when he's being a jerk. Don't marry a drinking/drugging/gambling man.
Submit does not mean "put yourself under the mission of" I'm not sure where this idea came from.
Fr. Mike Schmitz of Ascension Presents said this in a cringe explanation of Ephesians
it's literally the etymological breakdown of the term.
@@maryangelica5319 No it isn't. It is from the late Middle English word submitten, which was borrowed from the Latin word submittere, which is the infinitive of submittō (“place under, yield, surrender”), which is the combined form made from sub (“under, from below”) + mitto (“to send, to put, to place”).
It means to place oneself under or yield to another. This new etymology is just that, new, which is the opposite of what an etymology is supposed to be.
Also the Greek word behind "submit" in Eph 5:22 is hypotassō. This word was a Greek military term meaning "to arrange [troop divisions] in a military fashion under the command of a leader". In non-military use, it was "a voluntary attitude of giving in, cooperating, assuming responsibility, and carrying a burden".
It means, to subordinate, put in subjection, to subject one's self, to obey, to submit to one's control, and be subject to another's authority.
You are simply wrong and have been deceived.
Only the sinful, fallen world sees obedience and authority when it isn't in the text. These verses are all about Christ's command to love one another. This can be difficult for those who don't understand Christ and want to live in their own selfish interests.
@@Himmiefan Whatever relationship the Church has with Christ, who is God, wives are to have with their husbands. I don't know about you, but in my theology the church submits to God, God loves the church but does not in any way submit to it.
Ephesians 5:22-25 "Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as unto the Lord. *For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body. Therefore as the church is subject unto Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in every thing.* Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it"
I'm not a biblical scholar, but has it struck anyone else that the same word was used by God in His statement to Eve, "Your urge shall be for your husband ..." and the word He used to warn Cain, "sin lies in wait ... it surge is for you"? I don't know if it's significant or not but I often wonder if it was prophetic of the "battle of the sexes" and should be considered in the same way as Jesus' statement that "the poor you will always have with you."
To summit: to give, to allow
To be subordinated : to be under the authority of another’s will, hierarchical form of relationships, not just in marriage.
Eve was to give to and allow Adam to lead by reasoning and to help him .
Adam was told to love his wife.
Thank you
Sorry, but the text does not mean obey. To see obedience and authority in these verses is to read them through the lenses of the sinful, fallen world that caters to male-entitlement. These verses are just about loving one another as Christ teaches. Anyone who reads obedience and authority into these verses doesn't really understand Christ and his teachings, and our churches have a great many who really don't understand Christ (see the rise in Christian Nationalism).
I think even saying that there is an element of mutual submission muddies the waters. What men do for their wives is different than what women do for their husbands.
Women refuse to be submissive to a husband who loves her and will die for her but will be submissive to a boss that will fire her in a heartbeat.
Define what his idea of love is. If a man is worthy of being a good self sacrificing leader and acts Christ-like, even strong headed women will listen to him, husband or not. I know some women who are submissive but their husbands are abusive, one even choked his wife when she was pregnant, and this was a man that goes to church. Thank goodness St. Paul said that singleness is a gift, matrimony isnt as a big deal as so many want to make it out to be. St. Joahn Chrysostom confirmed this too
The despair of pro-slavers in this podcast is hilarious. Women will not be forced into indentured servitude again. That ship has sailed.
I think historically populations were viewed in terms of households, which is why men were the only ones who could vote - because they were the representatives of their households. In this view of the world where the family was the fundamental unit rather than the individual it makes sense that there would need to be a hierarchy between the family members. So you couldn't have a wife contradicting her husband politically, for instance. It wouldn't work. The family has to be one cohesive whole.
I found this interesting. I'm looking into this subject "What is God's Will for men & women." I have been for a while now. On John Chrysostom - he was an early church father and as far as I'm aware the early church fathers universally believed that men were created superior to women. That this was a matter of creation and that the women's subordination to her husband was because of "eves curse" I wonder what John Chrysostom believed? I love John's words that you mentioned in this video. I also wonder though in his world a Master should be taught to treat his slave very well & the Slave should submit to his Master. Also taught in Ephesians Chapters 5 & 6 following the Claus to "submit to each other" in ch5:vs21 Today we interpret very differently. That the genders are created equal (with unequal roles because men lead lovingly & women submit respectfully) this is God's Will. However slavery was never God's will in creation but following through on (the curse of Ham) I love St Gregory on speaking out against slavery. Was he the only Father to do so at the time? I've been rambling enough.... I think my main point is that I see the Patriarchal & Slavery often next to each other in the Bible (in Peter's Epistle he is talking about Slaves submitting to bad Masters then says "in the same way wives submit to your own husbands" Today we generally believe Slavery is God speaking the best into an institution that is not Gods Will but "redeems" it speaking into it. However the Patriarch and women being submissive to men in the home & church many believe to be Gods Will for all times in all places. Why is that? Could you share your thoughts and God bless you I love your content.
You've hit the nail on the head. People read Ephesians through the lenses of the sinful, fallen world that until the last few decades, at least here in the West, was very sexist and promoted male-entitlement. So yes, when they read those verses, they automatically assume that wives obey and husbands rule. But, people who truly understand Christ and are guided by the Holy Sprit, see that those verses are an example of how to love one another as Christ teaches. Did Christ teach that wives obey and husbands rule? No, and Paul cannot determine doctrine, only explain it. Christ, though, did teach that we are to love one another as we love ourselves. This can be very difficult for self-centered people to accept because they don't want to submit to one another.
@@sitka49 Yeah, hon, you can't just lift verses out of the context of the chapter, book, and situation Paul was talking about. God doesn't approve of using scripture for our own selfish reasons.
Could you put up a link to the document you mention please
It's only a confusing time to religious bigots. Everyone else agrees to live and let live. Seems healthier than slavery.
To those that find the Bible verse to submit to their husbands offensive, it's because as a rule they don't and make the home a difficult place for men to live which results in pain for everyone.
I was wincing watching two people, walking on egg shells around such an culturally sensitive topic.
You were not navigating a spiritual matter but a social matter in a society that has openly rebelled against God.
There are Christians and people of other faiths in other cultures which have not surrendered and do not wish to adopt our culture, yet despite seeing how broken we are we question their adherence to “outdated” ideas.
It's a true rebellion against God to see obedience and authority in these verses when it's not there. It's true rebellion to not see Christ's command to love one another. It's true rebellion to use these verses for selfish gain.
Submission means "being under the mission", yes that's right. But the "mission" of a husband is to be CHRIST to His wife, and Christ did far more than merely take up the cross for the church. The very next thing it mentions is washing... that means to cleanse, instruct, guide and correct. Christ didn't merely take up the cross for his church. He leads, corrects, disciplines, instructs, chastises, reprimands, demands obedience and calls for repentance. Those are all part of "cross bearing" on the part of Christ or the husband.
I for the longest time have been a nice guy. But im discovering that nice guys doesn't equate good man. Gud intentions dont save you or your wife. I find myself trying to please her and and actually being irresponsible while doing so. Instead of tons of treats and gifts i could be investing in something more beneficial to both of us.
Anyway hopefully someone gets that.🤙
The first woman rebelled against God. Been happening since!
Yes, yes, and then she had children with her own sons, or how was it?
She failed to submit to her husband, and he failed to lead and protect her
@@babs420th9are you talking about Eve? Nowhere is there any mention of her doing that in the Bible. Ever.
@@mellieg.7543 My point is that OP uses the story of Adam and Eve to justify his argument. But that story involves Adam and Eve, the first humans, who had three sons IIRC. How did they populate the earth exactly?
Please permit me my perspective on this topic.
It appears that your conclusion of this bible passage, is that the wife must be submissive to evil, if the husband is acting evilly - what fodder for both radical feminism and responsible feminism, and clearly not true in light of the biblical message throughout the bible to submit to God and not submit to evil.
You got off track when you said that the passage on marriage submission cannot possibly mean that the only time that a wife would have to be submissive to her husband is when the husband is perfect, which would mean that the wife would never have to be submissive to her husband because there is no such thing as a husband who is as loving to his wife as Christ is loving to his church, and of course Christ is perfectively loving to His church. There are two problems with your conclusion. One the definition of slavery and two the definition of marriage - or at least sacred life-long Catholic sacramental marriage as Christ taught - dictating what kind of husband and what kind of wife, even if imperfect which they both are, and each has no right to expect the other to be, but every right to expect the other to do their best to be, even if it means asking the parish priest for assistance from time to time.
In context the entire bible states that we must give up ourselves to follow Christ - spiritual slavery to God - both His teachings and his behavior, and for those of us sinners - all of us - who are not perfect there is the sacrament of confession or reconciliation. Essentially, we - both males and females - must dedicate our lives to replace our natural vices and vicious human tendencies and replace them with and acquire a life of virtues. Also, the purpose of marriage - sacred marriage - is to bear and raise children with the same inspiration, unencumbered by contraception, - a life-time job, each child with the God given right to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness to be and to become who God created the child to become.
So, slavery to God does not have the connotation of abuse as mankind’s slavery entails in practice, but not necessarily as initially understood.
Sacred marriage is the dedication of two people a man and a woman to each other for that purpose for the benefit of society and future generations with the understanding that the two will raise the children with the same understanding of instilling in them the virtues and a virtuous lifestyle (child baptism) - and free from the threat of divorce in the middle of serving the purpose.
Of course, this purpose cannot be fulfilled unless marriage is only between a man and a woman. In marriage, the wife of course will be the marriage partner to bear the burden of continuously carrying, bearing and nurturing the children. Keep in mind none of this labor is paid for by modern society, but it should be. Society benefits from virtuous adults.
Thus, the burden of supporting the family financially must fall on the nonbearing marriage partner. Thus, as long as the male marriage partner is doing his job the female partner must be submissive to him within the spousal context where he makes decisions which enable him to find a job or be employed as he attempts to fulfill his mission to the family. There is no obligation to submission if the husband is not fulfilling his obligation to this wife and family.
Of course if you add the concept of divorce and contraception, in our protestant society an country, there is no longer a sacred marriage, and the balance of power shifts to the person who is paid by society to provide financially for the family, when he is not, unless of course the divorce or separation is economically unincentivized by requiring that the money after the divorce or separation is required to be placed in a common account for the benefit of the nonearning spouse and the benefit of the children’s upbringing and necessary education, which in our protestant society, it is not.
Further, if marriage is solely for the pleasure of the parties because they are “in love,” then the marriage may be for not disturbing a career, living a life of luxury at the expense of those raising a family, and thus a contraceptive or homosexual marriage, without the sacred purpose.
So, if at any time the husband is not acting in response to his dedication to the purpose of a sacred marriage, the wife has no duty under the bible in proper context to be submissive or obey her husband.
We then are suffering from a protestant driven divorceable marriage, and a wife who is left fending for herself and thus needs to be “equal” in society, especially in her ability to compete in the marketplace, have a career, and especially if she is still burdened with the slavery of raising of the multiple children on her own. Thus, uninspired human society forces a culture of contraception, unsacred marriages and homosexual marriages searching for “equality” or equal treatment in an uninspired society, including employers who are seeking to maximize their profits at the expense of raising children, in promotion of the abortion culture we have today. Anyone who supports this culture as conservative economists is pro life in name only. The pro-life culture has to pay the individuals dedicating and sacrificing their lives to raise the future generations at the expense of the selfish people who are making more money dedicating themselves to their selfish individual goals.
This is horrific. What if a Husband wants sex and the wife does not. I guess she should just submit or he should force himself on her but it's not rape cause, she should submit and they are married so it's her duty or some bullshit like that right?
Men are called to love their wives. Pressuring them that much is not love, or dying to self. They talk about this.
You don't sound happy. It may sound harsh to you but it can work if both parties are on board with respect and love and God's grace.
@@maryrankin9869Unfortunately not all conservatives or Catholics understand the subtleties of what submission means in the marital context, and many will use it in the full literal sense, so the above fear is valid.
@@adambrocklehurst4211exactly! I’m kind of tired of all this gaslighting, when we clearly see many men who are very scary in their views and obsession on submission. I married a wonderful man and have a happy marriage. But to claim all will be great if only these stupid women would submit to any man because ALL men are these holy amazing men is ridiculous. Many men are absolute scum even when they represent themselves as godly men.
@@maryrankin9869 did you even read what I wrote?
Just like his prohibitions on women speaking in church, Paul's command for wives to submit to their husbands was largely influenced by the Greco-Roman culture in which he lived, and therefore just like the Founding Fathers' less than progressive statements on race, these verses should be viewed as nothing more than relics of a time when women were not regarded as equal members of society. (Yeah, at no time did Jesus make such statements, nor can than they be found anywhere in the Old Testament.)
really appreciate this talk but please with the swearing i like to watch this with kiddos around and i dont mind some sexual talk because thats more explainable but language is much harder. Thank you! i can also just bow out and not watch this with my kids in earshot im fine with that just offering constructive critisism take it or leave it
The submission will only work if the wife isn't working and the lifestyle is good. Otherwise, why would a woman submit to a man when shes paying the bills. Its better to be single than married and working.
Women have always had jobs, even in the Bible. Look at the women in the book of Judges.
Many female saints had actual jobs. The only difference between today and centuries past is that the money wasn't hers to do what she wanted with and she didn't move out of her parents house at 18.
No!!!
I know this sounds rude, but I think the popularity of BDSM shows that at some level a pretty large percent of women want to be submissive, but it turns excessive, like with an appetite if you haven't eaten in a long time.
Yeah women want to be submissive to a great provider, a billionaire 😂. Men seem to miss this part of the fantasy.
@@Naomi-bw5qs That is true, it isn't submission to just anyone.
I think that's because of how prevalent pornography is in western society. Do you think any person wants to undergo acts of sexual violence during times of intimacy with their partner? Give me a break.
Bro
Bruv
Sometimes submitting to your husband means giving him the silent treatment until he apologizes. And insisting that he be the spiritual leader. Even though so many men want to be lazy and let their wives do all the leading.
I sincerely hope you are not married if you justify treating your husband by "giving him the silent treatment until he apologizes"?
@@MorePlausible you try living with him.
A more mature response would be to share how it made you feel, and communicate your desires and then get a marriage therapist.
@@jimboleroyjenkens2743 yes, but he won't go to a therapist.
@@jackieo8693 No, you should go to a therapist. You don't get a healthy relationship by fixing your partner, you go fix yourself.
Matt can you please stop moaning?
This is sixkness