Broken Rockers And Bent Pushrods - 1967 Coronet 500 Top End Fix (The Stacking Tolerance Problem)
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 28 ธ.ค. 2024
- This is Don's 1967 Dodge Coronet 500 convertible. Recently, I filmed a long overdue wrap-up video on this awesome project car at Rocket Restorations. Unfortunately, with classic cars, there is no such thing as "done," and shortly after it was returned to Don, a previous valve train issue reared its ugly head once again. So today, let's dig into that problem, and examine what I think is the ultimate fix for the valve gear on classic Mopar engines big and small - adjustable rocker arms.
@rocketresto
That triangle part is probably a stone from a vibratory tumbler used to clean up edges on stamp steel parts.
Nope, it's a RARE triangular Chicklet. Jamie should try to chew it.
Actually, I'll bet you're right.
It's a rare MOPAR collector's item. I don't know anyone who has one.
Sell it to Mark Worman.
My father-in-law has a 67 Dodge Coronet 500 383 2v. It's bone stock. He's 2nd owner from 1974!!! Looks new, and runs great. Garage kept!!
2door? What kind of offer would tempt him to sell?
Congratulations on being featured on the cover ! Don’t know someone more deserving. You seem like a really nice young man that really works hard with these cars.
14:20 Joe does a great demonstration video on these exact rockers and setup. His engine build series are a solid go-to source for 'modern' parts on our mopars. Sorry, gotta give the man a shout cuz worthy.
Of course! Joe’s the best at this! He’s also the one that gave me some less than stellar news about the quality and structural rigidity of these 440 Source rocker shafts.
Wow I've never seen a pushrod punch thru a rocker arm like that. What a mess. Thanks for another fine how to video.
Best damn hats and t- shirts in all the land. Highly recommended.
Oh hell yeah! Thanks!
I like that you always show what went wrong and how to fix it! Thanks!
Yep, got a big block head right now with the same problem. Some muppet did a valve job, replaced some valves, and did not check the stem height.
Wow congratulations for making the cover of mopar magazine.. 🎉❤
Thank you!!
Those blue hold down always bring back the memories of spending over a day shaving down the hold down closest to the blower motor and beating up the valve cover by the blower motor on my factory AC 71 Swinger to get the 440 with TrickFlow heads to fit. We didn’t know at the time that the TF heads were taller than OEM style heads (first batch from TF back in Dec 2018). Good times…goooood times lpl
My cousin bought a new 1967 coronet rt convertible with the 440cid engine. It was red with black interior. A gorgeous car.
Way to go getting that figured out, nice way to fix the problem cheap but very well. Shims coated in sand, well of course. Congratulations on getting on the Mopar magazine cover.
Thank you!
Crazy! Hopefully this will fix the problem. Also, congrats on make the cover! You're about as serious a mopar guy as a person could be.
One of my favourite cars of all time - the Coronet. Yeah - I aim high. Didn't know they came in convertible format - and that one, with it's charcoal paint and body striping, looks fantastic. I could go one of those quite happily, I think. Sounds pretty bloody awesome too - nothing better than dual pipes with a beefy Mopar V8.
Great tips in this one too, mate. It always puzzled me how Chevy blokes bemoan the fact they have noisy valve train issues and yet the adjustable units don't act on the pushrod itself like other OHV engines. Hey - even the 70+ year old tech in the A-series engine in my 1977 Mini has adjustable rockers in it....and so does the 60+ year old tech in the straight six in my 1979 Triumph 2500S. It would seem only logical to allow for wear and varied tolerances etc, but logic appears to be a commodity that is hit and miss these days....or its simply down to the almighty dollar. Who knows? Who cares? Each to their own though....
I had a stock 318 that I rebuilt with a big cam (can't remember specs, it was 28 years ago). everything else was stock except for a single plane intake and Edelbrock 600.
It sounded AWESOME with headers and dual exhaust.
It was in a cherry '75 D-100 SWB, original engine bored .030 over.
I pulled it out, plopped in a stock 318 truck motor and sold it about 22-23 years ago.
A few years ago my oldest son wanted to go to the local Mud Fest.
I had a '78 W-150 4 speed, SWB sitting around that had 4:10/4:09 M880 axles swapped into it with 36" Buck Shot Radial Mudders on it. It is IDENTICAL to the one in your yard, roll bar and all. Stock 318 with a Holley 4 barrel......it was OK but kinda boring.
We decided to put the hotter 318 in it....with some upgrades.
I had an '81 Ram W-250 from Alaska with a 360 that I blew up farting around in our field with the same son. Tried to sell it, nobody wanted it so I decided to part it out.
First thing we did was pull the motor and pull the heads. It looks like a ring broke, the piece turned sideways and cam up between the cylinder wall and notched the piston.
I had my Dad (H&H Machine) put the largest, non 340, valves in it with hardened seats...BIG INCREASE IN SIZE.
Then I spent about 8 hours porting the heads, basically gasket matching the ports and blending in the ports to the MUCH larger valves.
Pulled the heads on the hot 318 and found the pistons .100" in the hole at TDC.
The compression ratio with the 360 heads would have been HORRENDOUS!
I had Dad shave the heads down to the seats, CCd the heads and now it's 9.5-1.
I had to put thick intake gaskets in and ordered push rods to make up for the shaved heads.
I also installed gen 1 Sniper EFI which LOVES the fairly high rise single plane intake. I KNOW, I KNOW, EVERYONE HATES SNIPER EFI.
It is an off-road only truck so it has an open header on the driver's side and 18" of 3" pipe on the passenger side after the O2 sensor.
This thing RUNS AWESOME and will hold maximum RPM seemingly FOREVER with hydraulic lifters with no valve float.
Most people assume it's a 440. It has the rearend welded up and it's a BLAST.
Someday I want to put a 4" stroke crank in the 360 short block, AFTER a rebuild of course, and put Edelbrock heads on it. I have an '86 Ramcharger it would be perfect for. Yes, I'm going to EFI it also.😮
If you want to hear the 318 run my son has a couple of short videos on you TH-cam Hunter Hutchins Mud Fest 2020 and Hunter Hutchins Dodge Power Wagon is where you can find it on TH-cam .
You can also catch a glimpse of my '95 Ram Crew Cab (not Quad Cab) project in the un-edited version of the video I made for TFL Truck on my Wife's Phord Souper Dooty that my the same Son and I built, if you're into that sort of thing.
Love that bb sound....and now with no ticky ticky accompaniment.
How cool is it to be on the cover of any magazine featuring classic Mopars! You’ve made the big time my friend!
If it was possible to get NOS of the original rocker assembly with pushrods, what would that cost?, or could only guy named Musk, Allen, Leno…ect. Afford such a part?
I have never really had much trouble with the stock non-adjustable rockers on any Mopar I've had, but this is definitely a good way to go especially if you're going after more power. I probably floated the valves a time or 3 on my 340, but never to the point where anything broke.
BTW, you said "you said moron" just after I was thinking it. I was so proud of myself for that split second and you ruined it!
I’ve seen them punched a few times, even on low performance 318s and such. Also, sorry 🤣
everything you say tickles my brain and triggers memories of my uncle trying to beat the gospel of mother mopar into my thick small block Chevy brain cause cheap parts at swap meets. i wish I listened better. I miss him now
Congrats on the cover, you earned it BS&T
Thank you!
Great fix! Sounds great!👍
Non adjustable rockers have been one of the biggest challenges I’ve faced with my mopars. Punched thru rockers, floating valves, some Machinists not knowing how to do valve jobs on Chryslers 🙄…🤦🏻♂️the struggle is real. Adjustable is the only way to go for good performance unless you run brand new heads, unmilled old heads with all new seats, valves, etc.. or having a machinist who knows what he’s doing with shims, unsunk valves, and the like.. making valve stems that are perfectly straight across the valve stems. Very tedious work. Great video brother!
How often do you see the holes in the stamped factory rockers ovaled out?
I see a couple on worn engines. I have also seen someone put a small block rocker in a big block. Not a whole set, just one or two.
@@auteurfiddler8706 I’ve had it happen to me a few times when I have twisted them hard. Usually 383’s.
It's awesome that you are on the cover! I am ordering my copy now.
Setting and adjusting the valve lash is often overlooked as a simplistic and unsophisticated task for proper engine maintenance, yet much can be gained by paying attention to valve lash. Good initial set up and keeping a close eye on the valve lash can alert you to a problem before it leads to a pernicious death of your powerplant.
It’s a little more challenging when there is no such adjustment.
That was some solid demo artwork Jamie good diagnose and repair
Nice job!
Very informative video yeah I saw the valve start to open and thought ohh. You gotta know what you’re doing like one of your previous videos mentioned throwing money at it isn’t the answer keep up the good work regards Roy.
Thanks again for sharing your hard-earned tricks & tweaks. Cheers!
Thank you for the quality alert on the reproduction parts...good content and thanks....🔧🔧👍
Another enjoyable video, thanks so much for posting. I learned something (I usually do) re: setting the lifter pre-load.
You really do such a good job at 'splaining The Things. Valve train geometry is kind of voodoo to me, but let's face it: it IS voodoo. What with the math and such. But it's like I'm learning the magic spells to the voodoo lol very cool
Engine sounds fine now, Jamie. In fact, it sounds very *Mopar-y* , despite whatever cam that is.
I grew up riding in the back of a '68 Monaco wagon w/383 - same sound.
It's in my DNA - with the exception of an '89 5.0 I bought new, I've owned nothing but Mopars
for the rest of my 63 years on this planet.
Wish you guys were closer - my own '68 GTX "Fred" needs some attention and I've gotten too old.
Anyways, love the video as always so thanks!
- Ed on the Ridge
Lots of good information and well presented with the sketches.
Congrats on the cover of Mopar.
That little triangular stone is a tumble stone for taking the burrs off metal parts 😉
In 1974 I owned a 1970 GTX when I was in high school. The number one exhaust rocker suffered that exact failure twice while I owned it. The car was factory original, as far as I know, except for headers I put on it, and being a kid, I drove the shit out of it. I never knew the exact cause of the failure, I always assumed it was from over revving between gears.
That may well be, but it’s interesting that it was the same arm repeatedly. I’m guessing the tolerances were off on that one, similar to what is happening here.
Hey !!! I tryed to leave messge about that issue when you first went thru it and asked about the rockers !!! The lifters had the smaller cup that needed the smaller tip push rods but mentioned to check the rockers !!! I think the rockers also in earlier motors had smaller cup to for that earlier push rod so the rockers that were on the car were meant for the bigger tip push rod and by using the small tip earlier pushrods that's why they were coming thru the rocker I think let me know if that can be it I can't say for sure. Becusse I don't have any earlier big blocks to look at. Great show to !!! Keep it up !!!!
The early pushrods only have the small tip on the lifter end. Thank you!
Such a great looking car.
Nice subtle improvements. 👍
You look good driving that convertible
I look mangy 😅
This is my favorite tech video yet. Thanks Jamie.
Thats so cool , congratulations Jamie
Awesome video as always Jamie
I'm Shocked that Road Kill didn't ask you Being a Mopar Jedi to be in the Build off with Mopar sponsoring it.
I don’t think I’m on their radar just yet 😅
Sweet car and it sounds good
If you run it hard and fast enough it'll eventually self-clearance.😊
Also, I've never seen a triangular Chicklet before. You should see if you can chew it.
Mmmmm!
Yes Jamie I had exactly the same problem with my 69 super bee highland modified engine and I just could not keep rockers from pushing the push rod through and so I went to some roller rockers and that and new push rods to go along with the roller rockers a thicker push rod diameter Clarence them all with the heads endo problem but valve covers ticked like yours did so I beat mine too good video in explanation for people who really haven't fell into these kind of problems good video informative as all get out good job
Nice car 👍
This is why I pay my engine builder good money. He checks everything before the engine leaves the building.
Had very same problems when I first built my 383 in 1983. Broke probably 6 total. Push rod issue was the ultimate cause. Engine was a 67. I used the later model year pushrods because they were nice and clean. Never looked at the originals that were stashed away, dirty 2 years earlier. Don’t want to pop a lifter from the bore and swallow a pushrod, wiping out the cam lobe, and breaking off several piston skirts. Ask me how I know!
That is a very sweet car
Yep thanks mate good job liked it
All the reasons why they make pushrod length checkers, so you don't have these types of failures. Who ever assembled this engine after the machine work was done failed to do their job correctly, they could have ordered the correct length pushrods or used adjustable length push rods or gone to adjustable rockers which still would have required measuring for the correct length pushrods. Basic engine building covered in any good book on engine building. Not a mystery.
Yep… and yet it happens all the time.
Jamie, look at the size of the ball end on the push rod compared to the socket in the rocker. I think that the rocker socket is to small and the ball end is riding on the upper edge and not being lubed properly. Love your videos.
That’s an interesting idea. So the thinking would be that the sockets in those factory type aftermarket rockers are too small. The early pushrods I discussed have a small end, but that’s in the lifter. The rockers *should* all be the same 5/16” socket. I will take a look at this when I get a chance.
Thank you Jamie
Yeah love valve cover baffles. Had a really nice set of factory chrome covers on a SBF years ago. Everything was good after a rebuild and cam change until one day it developed a hell of a knock. One of the rockers had apparently just been touching the baffle when the rocker came up (I didn't hear that (possibly due to a pair of very loud (gutted) side pipes). It eventually it broke 2 of the spot welds holding the baffle. Then every time the rockers came up it was slamming the baffle into the bottom of the valve cover.....I sure heard that.
The newer style big block pushrods and lifters came out for the 1968 model year. The pre-1968 pushrods have one tapered end that goes in the pre-1968 lifter. The 1968 and up pushrods have the same ball end at both ends. The lifter end is exactly the same as the rocker arm end and the newer pushrods can be installed in either direction, while the pre-1968 pushrods can only be installed in one direction. Both style of pushrods require the correct style of lifter for their years. You can convert the older style to the newer style by changing to the newer style lifter and the newer style pushrod.
Exactly that. I didn’t explain the physical difference in this video, and obviously I was off by a year. That’s pretty typical for me. Haha.
@@DeadDodgeGarage When I was in high school in the 1970's, my father gave me his old 1967 Coronet R/T to drive to school. It was all stock, as it was his street car. He drag raced his race cars at the drag strip. I street raced, like my uncle and in street race prepping the R/T, I updated the 1967 440's valve train, along with a new camshaft. There were several street racers at my high school in the 70's.
Jamie just hates convertibles. Jamie drives convertibles constantly just to remind himself of why he hates convertibles.
Lol. I've noticed that too !
You might be onto something here 😅
"Broken Rockers And Bent Pushrods" Sounds like a classic rock band that got back together
😅
That triangle stone was from a tumbler for deburring things, somebody must have tried cleaning the valve covers like that once.
Oh, neat! Thanks for that.
Never understand why people use any abrasive media on engine parts. Soda blast or chemical strip. Keep the sandblasting away from engine parts.
That sure is a nice car
You should have left it to self-clearance itself! That's what the good mechanic does.
Trust me… I thought about it 😅
Whiz Shoka-Zorber Fluid t-shirt WHEN!?! 😄
Alright, that’s a good one 🤣
The little gray triangle is “tumbling media”
@Jamie, those valve spring retainers seem to small for the springs, you shouldn't see the spring edges.
I made mention of the poor fit in the video, right? I think I did. I don’t know why the OD of those springs is so big. Well, I know why - some goober built this engine.
@@DeadDodgeGarage I'm betting those retainers are the factory size with oversize springs. I hope they don't wear on the edges of the springs causing them to break.
Do you know who makes BUSHED adjustable rocker arms? I don't like needle bearings in my engine. BUT I could probably live with needle bearing rockers.
As for the cam, it's a high end 440 build with forged bottom end, it's done.
I'm probably going to just going to put complete Indy head assemblies on it but NOT 100% yet.
I definitely want hydraulic lifters (I'll sacrifice the 8.2 HP at the high end) but I'm not going roller cam UNLESS I can find bushed roller lifters. I want ZERO chance of needle bearings scattered in my engine.
I've never heard of roller rockers spitting put their needles but HAVE SEEN IT on roller lifters. Luckily NOT MINE.
Any idea who makes them? I'm pribably going with a Crower cam as I know their lobes are MOPAR width.
I don’t, that’s beyond my pay grade. But I definitely understand the sentiment. Roller bearings don’t get me excited.
I'm 51, it'll be my FIRST high-end build....and likely my ONLY.
Looks OK from here... don't forget to change the oil though, who knows.
Keep the beavers grinning and the Smokeys off your back/10-10 on the side Good Buddy.
You used to be able to buy AC belts in "matched sets" that had the exact same length. They would have less tendency to squeal when tensioned properly. :>)
I know it…
@@DeadDodgeGarageIt also appears that the compressor mount flexes when you rev the engine causing a reduction in belt tension. With the A/C off, I think the slippage is occuring at the alternator pulley.
Is there a huge difference between modern alignment specs and what the car would have been setup as?
Certainly a measurable one - the factory called for different camber specs side to side, and for manual steering the caster spec was actually negative. Even for power steering, it was only 1 1/4 degrees positive caster max. These specs were for bias ply tires, to aid with going straight on crowned roads and to make steering effort easier in the case of the manual setup. Modern radial tires don’t work with that setup. Lots of caster is needed to keep the car going straight as opposed to darting left and right, and staggering camber isn’t necessary.
So is it a no to higher pressure springs as the antidote to valve float?
I am wondering if they were too stiff already and that caused the broken rockers and bent push rods.
@@auteurfiddler8706 That is more likely to be valves kissing the piston ...
Had that happen on a dodge van push rods threw rockers
Jamie, you must have a no longer in use 383, 440, 361, 400 sitting around with the original rockers. And I'm taking a really wild guess those aftermarket rockers came from a 3rd 🌎 place also.
More stamped steel rockers are not going to fix this problem. Yes, we have plenty. And I know. I think I made it obvious I’m not excited about it. But it’s the workable solution that is available.
I rebuilt a 87 roller block installed lunatic cam 515/530 lift, had 302s ported n polished and larger valves installed 202 and 160 last thing had lunatic dual matching springs installed still using stock stamped rockers good oil pressure but upper valve train a little noise rechecked and some pushrods seem a little short.any suggestions???
I have adjustable Harlan Sharp rockers on my 1969 383 and have very noisey valve train. doesn't seem to cause any performance issues, would preloading them make the noise go away
It certainly could, yes. That’s assuming you’ve got hydraulic lifters of course.
Not a EFI fan, because your a relic, working on relics
Dude I’m 34
Jaimes a magazine centerfold now!!!!......
He will now want GOURMET breakfast burritos....
And now he's going to get a Gulfstream yacht powered by two 318s out of a barracuda
🤣
ok, but u forgot to mention the awesome awesome sniper efi !!!!
I mentioned it in the last video on this car a week ago, and I didn’t call it awesome… 😅
so weird, must have missed the ‘not’ - all i heard was the awesome and how u loved it and wanted to marry it
Looks like compresser could be moved about a quarters thickness forward for proper alignment.
The item that came from the valve cover, you asked what it might be. Looks like it’s a piece of umb media from a tumbler.
So I hear! Thanks!
Some lifters will pump up and cause interference problems if the engine is not properly warmed up or using too high a viscosity oil. High RPM and cool oil is not a good thing. Just a thought because I have had that problem before and broke rocker-arms and bent pushrods. Valves don’t like being hit by pistons.
No, they certainly don’t like that… that may well be what’s going on here. Either way, the problem is solved now.
I’m sure 53 people have already asked but, when are you finishing the slant 6 turbo build??? You kinda tricked us in the last video… lol!!!
Tricking you wasn’t my intention. I have another installment of fixing stuff on the car but I am doing this in stages and I still don’t have a turbo. All in good time…
@@DeadDodgeGarage I knew that, just excited for the next video!!! Thank you
With the new rocker setup I can't see (literally) how the pushrod tip and valve stem tip get lubricated with oil like the original factory design rockers that fill up with oil and flow over the edge and through a hole at the pushrod cup.
That looked like a polishing stone . Used to deburr parts in a spinning barrel
Early and late push rod lengths in a BB Mopar? Not just RB vs LB? I've never heard of that. So, if that is true, what would a 65 413 vs a 68 440 look like next to each other? What explains the difference??? Heads? Rocker arms?
The early (67 back, I’m told) big block pushrods have a smaller 1/4” ball at the lifter end, and the lengths are also different.
That triangle is a piece of tumbling media. After machining, the rocker arms are tumbled to improve the surface finish.
I’ve been told it’s tumbling media. I’m sure this was after fact, and it was wedged in the valve cover’s baffle - so definitely unrelated to the rockers.
That triangle thingy is a tumbling stone for deburring machine
Jamie do u know who made the radiator?
They’re on eBay. I’m about to buy one for my Charger. But don’t remember manufacturer or seller
@@DeadDodgeGarage thanks I'll go look.
🤣 I'm sorry my brain fell out a long time ago.
75-year-old Dodge truck with a freaking cannon!!! Also belt dressing???
That stone you found is a debut stone probably from that pack of shims
It was wedged in the baffle area of that valve cover. Did I not explain that correctly? People seem confused by that.
@DeadDodgeGarage yeah I know just answering the question I work at a place that makes rocker parts
I would like to know the gas mileage increase with EFI and overdrive transmission. It's always something I wanted to do on a big block to see if it would get closer to 20 mi per gallon with the right gears
I am very curious myself. As I understand, about 20 is possible with a big block. I don't know if Don has tried to calculate the mileage in this car yet or not.
So that's what happened....I opened my mind to much.
Ahhhhhhh that’s not ideal
Am I wrong in assuming that this car had a factory A/C system as there looks like the heater hoses go to a heater core and an evaporator with a U hose?
We (Rocket - before my time) went to great lengths to make it appear as though it was an original AC car, excepting the aftermarket compressor of course. I explained that in the previous video last week, but I understand not everyone will have caught that.
@@DeadDodgeGarage Yeah it has the components of a factory A/C system. The add on system has different components!
Wow, a convertible with factory air conditioning. Thati is rare!
We added the AC, but we used all factory parts except that compressor kit! So it’s pretty legit.
What about compressed spring height
Coil bind, interesting thought. For the record, there have been no further issues since I changed the arms and pushrods.
The noise could possibly be the loose nut behind the wheel?
There have been multiple loose nuts behind this wheel recently 😅
"Broken Rockers and Bent Pushrods" the title of your memoirs.
The Stacking Tolerance Problem also works here...
They both have a good ring, but I hope my memoir will be funnier. Haha.
The pc. Of triangle material is a pc of media from a tumbler. Guess valve covers have been tumbled.
Thank you for using your pinky finger for pushing your glasses up your nose. I also wear glasses and usually use my middle finger. Things don't end well....
You don't have to use a piece of wire to line up your pushrods. You have what you need in the video already. Use your dipstick, it's what us old school Mopar engine guys have been doing since forever.
So I’ve been told. Perhaps next time.
Belts be squealin’. Whatcha gonna do?