Shadowdark: A Conversation with Kelsey Dionne
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 6 พ.ย. 2023
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Shadowdark creator Kelsey Dionne of the Arcane Library chats with us about gaming philosophy.
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I would genuinely listen to you two co-hosting a podcast. Even if it was just monthly.
This is so true!!!
😈😈😈
100 percent. I love how they converse back and forth and work though game concepts.
They are both really great!
The thing I loved the most about this was that it was less an interview and more two enthusiasts having fun talking about their hobby.
You almost fell like you're there with them being part of the conversation
You can tell how much Trevor is excited to have her on the show by the amount of time he does not let her talk 😂😂😂😂😂 great interview! Two of my favorite peeps on the scene
Fantastic interview. Trevor got to do plenty of his preaching to the choir, but Kelsey had a lot of interesting things to say on the same topics.
"Bored your viewers"? It wasn't long enough! You guys kept me company on an insane day at work!
It’s so lovely to see two people equally passionate about the finer details of RPG philosophy and mechanics bubbling with enthusiasm discussing about it.
YES! to your idea / discussion of the group of TH-camrs playing one-shots of various gaming systems. Great entertainment as well as a way of introducing the systems to those of us who haven't played them.
Tbh feels more like a conversation than an interview but this is an engaging conversation indeed. Raises lots and lots of interesting points about people's perspective on rule-lite vs complex systems, the philosophy behind them and how people accepts each other
As a GM myself... I am 46 mins in and this has been one of the best and most thought-provoking conversations I've heard in quite a while! Thank you both for your wonderful spirit and insight!
I hope you do what was implied near the end; Trevor GMing a game with Kelsey, Ben, Baron, Dan and Dave as PCs. I would watch that.
2E had kits which was a nice happy medium. The Pit Fighter vs The Fighter and the other "official classes" create that happy medium for me.
Great interview. Kelsey is always so personable and approachable, yet offers real insight into how she approaches things. As far as systems (rules lite or 5e), my personal opinion is the less I have to homebrew it in order for me to have fun running it and my players enjoy playing it, the more likely we are to keep using that system in the future. My 5e had a small tome of homebrew rules I created. For Shadowdark, it's literally the front and back of a single page, and that includes 2 charts.
OHHHHHHHHHHHHHH I hope we get a Runehammer interview on here. Would love to see those minds meet.
ALSO this was so lovely. Big fan of this channel and big fan of Kelsey's work.
Kelsey pulling off the counter-interview was great. 😁 I'd LOVE to watch all of you playing Hârnmaster, as it's a system that interests me but I've never been able to get into learning it!
Great interview by Kelsey here!;) Instead of Lite/Heavy, how about Rules Efficient? Well crafted and sufficient to the intent and play style of the game. Cause we"ve all played crunchy games that grind but add little in the end, and lites so lite they're basically just flavor packets.
Our table has added paper minis, which are not so precious with detail they narrow the imagination, but your hero can be a bit more that a bit of eraser nub. (Also super easy for folks to make their own, cheap and easy).
Great listen, thanks.
Love shadowdark but also have been having fun with Dragonbane which is rules medium and has a starting profession to help build a starting character, there is no class and it has a 20 die skill progression, so 5% units. Also the art is cool. Did I mention ducks?
This is such a great conversation. So worth having and listening to. Thank you for this style of an interview. Fresh and really appreciated.
This was a great discussion that covered a very broad range of topics, play styles, both sides of any argument proposed and self-reflection as to why they thought that way.
Shadowdark is a great innovation of the familiar. The toolkit in the game combined with the simple solutions to the basic systems make for a really interesting solo RPG option. Only natural that Trevor would appreciate the Shadowdark ecosystem.
purchase SHADOWDARK NOW! Great interview!
For GURPS, when battles got to be too big we would use the mass combat rules. It allowed a great deal of abstraction, which was really necessary when the number of combatants went above 20.
The GURPS mass combat rules are really an excellent happy medium between playing out some kind of wargame and just handling the battle narratively, imo. The players get to have some strategic control but it doesnt get too bogged down. Its also pretty portable to other systems, I think.
I’m loving these conversations with all these other TH-camrs Ive been following. I really hope you all get around to publishing some actual plays of different systems like you talked about! I would also pay good money for your “have it both ways” rpg system if you ever get around to making it. Much like you all described so well, I often vacillate between wanting the speed of rules-light but wanting more of a system to interact with.
Great interview. Solid chemistry. Excellent and relevant topics with honest and informative commentary, from two wonderful people in our hobby. ❤️😊🇺🇸
It's so interesting hearing you guys talk about these things. I love it.
You guys are awesome!
Gonna watch this again 😁
Im excited for her SOLO DARK - I'm keepign the pressure on her for motivation in the discords ;) . I also love her Monster maker sessions we did dor holloween when we made the PIED PIPER "rat master" and RUNEHAMMER randomly showed up and had a drawing montage at the same time and made an epic Pied Piper monster portrait for us LIVE
"I want the system to alleviate the narrative burden from me," is so interesting, and I think it's a really useful way to distinguish between different systems. To what extent does this system generate the details of the narrative? And, in what areas of play does the system generate those details? In combat? In exploration? In negotiation? Anyway, GREAT insight. I saw Kelsey nodding after you said that, and I was like SAME!!! It's so interesting
this actually had some really enlightening parts in it! wonderful!
Imagining these people playing ttrpgs together... they would be a dream-team!
What an amazing conversation! Thank you so much for sharing it with us.
At the end there, y'all mentioned this, and I have to say that TH-camr "super group" one shots sound kind of amazing. Like, once a month or even once a quarter.
The more games that you are aware of as a DM means the more tools you have at your disposal. There are some exceptional d6 systems and some exceptional d100 systems. You can often streamline skill checks within a d6 system with a d100 instead of flipping pages, etc. All you do is multiply your stat x5, roll a d100 and try to get under. So if your STR is 15 and you are attempting a check: 15x5=75. If you roll 75 or less on the d%, you succeed. Add various modifiers and proceed. Dont get hung up, just roll and resolve.
I found that like Trevor, when solo playing, rules light is better because I have to keep track of a ton of stuff beyond the game rules. The rules complex systems shine in one on one or two on one games where there are players and a GM, but only one or two players who can then spend the time to dig into the complexities.
Great episode! I’m digging the new story line.
I also felt vindicated by what Trevor said about 3rd edition. The OP min-max madness with feats and all almost made me abandon RPG for good. It was 5e that brought me back. And now they are leaning heavily into feats again 😢
This was a truly delightful conversation. Thank you both very much. And I’d +1 to watch you and the others get together to play one-shots and display different systems. Awesome stuff.
Well done interview sir! Shadow Dark is my new go to solo fantasy rpg
Great interview
I love your conversations! Keep up the good work!
Got a new shiny. Oh man! That's me 100%. My friends used to call it Game Master ADD.
I was litterally just talking about Kelsey to my wife 30 seconds before i hopped onto youtube ( i have a shadow dark game from her discord:Tomb of the Dusk Queen at lunch time today) and this was the first thing on my feed. Sometimes the creepy listening to your conversation and getting "targeted" advertisements get it right XD
Really enjoy your interview content, and enjoy that they feel more like dialogues between you and your guest rather than just digging into the guest's thoughts.
For ROTI I'm typically looking for stuff that helps build genre rather than simulation or combat tactics, and generally lean more towards rules medium than rules light because rules light rarely has the room for that sort of thing. At least, for running. For playing I'm pretty much open to anything.
Thanks for the video
Harn Master is in my Top 3 of all time. I’ve been utilizing Harn content since it first came to market. Columbia Games Tom, Grant and those that have supported it are just awesome folks. ❤
Great interview, guys..... you guys seem to get along so well, love it. :)
Would absolutely love seeing a bunch of you play some games togther.... sounds fun :)
Great interview. Really more like being involved in a pleasant conversation.
Kelsey's the best.
Trevor, you're speaking my language! I need the constant sustenance of new systems and love hacking them. I can't imagine playing only one or two systems for years on end. I also have a closet full of self-designed, half-finished RPGs. Someday I'll publish them all but, as Aragorn would say, IT IS NOT THIS DAY!
That was a great interview. Really enjoyable topics and conversation. Hoping for another session with some talk specifically about Shadowdark (the one thing that wasn't covered)! I think the question on favorite games for a con should have just been what are your favorite (fantasy genre) TTRPG games ? Kelsey? and M,M, & D? MM&D -- I'm assuming one of yours is HarnMaster. :-) And Kelsey -- Shadowdark! 🙂
I'll restrict my list to fantasy genre and games that are currently being published. These are not in any specific ranking order:
1) Castles & Crusades (Any printing from 1st to 8th on the player's handbook)
2) Fantasy Age 2ed (either 1st or 2nd Edition, 2nd Edition is only a little different than 1st)
3) D&D 5Ed. (I actually like 3 & 3.5 better, but sticking on my list to currently published games)
4) The Dark Eye 5Ed.
5) Pathfinder 2Ed (I actually like 1st Ed. a little bit better, but 2nd Ed is also excellent)
My list might be a little tougher if I added out of print games.
I think the main commonality on my choices is that I don't particularly like lite or abstract rules. The simplest game in terms of complexity of my 5 being Castles & Crusades which is a brilliant game.
Kelsey - I have the Quickstart to Shadowdark and will probably pick up the actual game see. Loving what I've seen so far. Well done!!
AWESOME interview, both of you compliment each other so well with your take on rules etc.😁😁😁
Totally love the fact that Kelsey procrastinates making terrain🤣🤣🤣
😈😈😈
Trevor, I want to applaud you on your humility and willingness to change to do what is best for the audience. I know you love simulationist style games and you get a lot of enjoyment from them. I was one of the audience members who felt that season 3 had some pacing issues because of Dominion's very granular system. I loved season 3's story, but some of the fights in the middle of the season dragged on when run RAW. I look forward to seeing how your custom system plays out in season 4. I'm sure you'll find the right level of crunch to keep both you and the audience entertained.
Great discussion. I particularly enjoyed the discussions around gaming preferences and aspects of simulation that is appealing. I definitely prefer this kind of freewheeling discussion than a formal interview. We get enough of those already, but having two enthusiasts just talking shop for a while is a lot of fun.
I'm a novelist so I loved the part of the conversation about highly detailed descriptions vs the concrete minimum. Brilliant talk between you too
My favorite part is at the end when Trevor announces he's using Shadowdark for season 3
I didn't hear him say that
@@capt.scarecrow rewatch it
@@MrDowntemp0 lol Yeh you have to rewatch the whole video. It's easy to miss.
Blink and you'll miss it
Delightful interview. (and Kelsey is adorable, I must say that.)
Y'know, on the system giving you details on what occurs in a fight vs. abstracting that completely or almost completely (so basically the task vs. conflict resolution thing) it really bothers me when people say that the fights are slow and they want to end that as quick as possible. To each his own, of course, and I understand that some people may prefer that, but why don't designers focus on making combat FUN instead of making it quick?
Kelsey has the hair I had when I was 16 and I am so jealous. I have zero now.
About character optimization: I have been playing strategy boardgames for a long time, and an essential part of these is to find the right combination of abilities/moves to win a game. In the last years, there have been more and more games that combine strategy boardgames with rpg elements. In these you get intricate, complex rules for fighting, exploring, and even character building. As the rpg community grows, there is an increasing amount of "strategists" wanting to play ttrpgs. This, in my opinion, is another reason, next to videogames, for this character optimization phenomenon.
There were two main goals to the Pathfinder Remaster project. Yes, the main one was OGL removal, but the other was splitting the Core rulebook into two rule books, the players book and the GM book. The rules were getting two big for one book.
It's totally great to have a system that gives you all the detail of how the damage was made (hitting your left leg etc.), but the only problem for me is that it takes a long time to generate that answer, so for me the best option would be that we get the effect fast, and then we spend more time on thinking what is the strategic decision I want to make in this situation, now that I have wound in my left leg, and the other guy is about to strike me.
Awesome!
I want to mention somewhere, so here might be as well, that what really got me into the main show was that Season 3's system was free and I could follow along Trevor with the PDF.
For season 1 I was following most of the dice rolls and looked on forums for specific rules.
Season 2's system was free, so again, I was following what moves Trevor was making Arn make.
So I understand when Trevor says that it's a show and that the rules should be light, but at the same time I want to say that I enjoyed seeing how the dice rolls were affecting the narrative in detail.
It's so nice to hear from a fellow "simulationist-leaning" gamer. Finally, I feel validated!
I hate the build optimization mentality... I had a GM who tried to talk me out of playing a ranger, and when that failed they tried to talk me out of my character option selections. By the end of character creation I'd almost lost the will to play.
Yes my two favorite TH-cam gamers
So I'm hearing we have Shadow dark Basic, and eventually we have shadow dark advanced. going full circle to B/X
I agree with you vis-a-vis rules mattering and being important. The rules are what make it a "game" and not just a "random story creation method". I think that either way of doing things is fine, but for those of us who want to engage with the game as an actual *game*, then we need some structured rules. The thing that actually bothers me is when the storygame guys try to tell the rest of is that we're "doing it wrong." That's a pretty hubristic way to approach the hobby, imo, and I don't have time in my day for those hoity-toity better than thou sorts lol.
I think that crunchy games with clearly defined procedures are great for "difficult" games, too. If you are running a pretty lethal game rules-lite, then it's *your rulings* that are killing characters. With something crunchier with more clearly defined procedures (I'm thinking of ACKS as I type this, but there are of course plenty of others!), you as the DM just run the game with the rules as written, and it's easier to both savor the players' victories along with them and commiserate with their losses.
I think many/most of the "burn the rules" guys are either playing a poorly written game or just don't want to put forth the effort to actually learn the rules. ;3 Simulationism is a perfectly valid playstyle, regardless of what the storygamers try to tell us.
When I interviewed John Michael Greer about his Mythic Cthulhu system and I'll tell you: There is nothing that irks me more than percentile dice. It's too random polluted by 10-sided dice. Great interview, that aside!
I love this. And I'm designing an "Axe of Flaming Stupidity"
I would LOVE to see ya'll do the one-shots. Show me Harn or Rolemaster! Lol. Things that I will probably never get to play lol
Funnily enough Burning Wheel does the "simple core with optional granularity". Take swinging swords for example. Most basic level is Sword vs [whatever opposition uses] and winner gets what they want. Then it goes into Bloody Versus where dice pools are divided into two (offence/defence) and "hit points" are introduced. Can be resolved in one test if one side is defeated, if not it goes on until one concedes. And finally is the Fight! rules where even things such as weapon speed and range comes into play. Fight! is done by each side scripting (blindly) three actions that are then played out against eachother. Like advanced rock-paper-scissors with dicerolling. Similar system used for debates. Torchbearer generalizes it into Conflicts.
As mentioned in the interview. This isn't new as Kelsey mentioned many games have optional rules that let you do this. IMO if a game tries to offer too many "options" it gets diluted. Better if you like abstract then play an abstract game, and if you like simulation play a simulation game. Mixing and matching to me -- means dilution.
Yes ROTI. Return On Time Invested. Absolutely spot on. I am a ROTI fan. 😊
I’m really enjoying this conversation. What you call ROTI, my friend calls `THE FAFF INDEX’! 😂 It’s interesting your observations on Dominion, because I really enjoyed the detail it added for solo play, but can see why that might not work for a show. If you ever have time for a conversation, I would really value getting your thoughts on a solo RPG I have started work on. It speaks to some of the points you raise during this conversation, while hopefully coming from a different direction, suited to solo play.
I believe we all make our version / edition of our games - Homebrew rules - our settings and speciality content. 🤣
Re: having it both ways, I've been playing around with a weird narrative-focused system. If you want to resolve something with one roll, you do it. If you want to zoom in on it, you "start a clock" like in Blades in the Dark; but the clocks are more complex. A basic clock holds either good situations or bad situations. Minimum clock size is 4 lines (called Level 1 thru Level 4; this is a level 4 clock). The player makes whatever rolls feel appropriate to fill slices. When a clock ticks forward, a new situation is added on level 1 or 2. When two adjacent lines (eg, 1 and 2) hold situations, things "escalate" -- the situations interact, creating a new situation on the next line up (eg, level 3); the old situations are erased. A clock is considered full when the top two levels are full (so, should escalate but can't).
Then, there's an Ironsworn-style roll to finish the clock. Like Ironsworn, this roll can be made early if filling the clock up is proving too punishing. I won't get into the weeds here, but the concept is that every bit of progress improves your odds on the roll (every situation adds 1, every escalation adds 1, and I promise it's not as hard as it sounds to calculate!)
The payoff for me is the "escalation". Narrative details I've already made interact with one another to increase the pressure, or (on a positive clock) describe my progress.
I absolutely agree with your rules-lite take. I love rules light (Tricube Tales!) but so many people talk like they want to just rush through everything. I agree there's a happy medium, but I have more fun with a little extra crunch. I mean, just flip a coin.
A Question and a Comment:
1) Have you ever done a review of Blades in the Dark on this channel?
2) For a Convention game, I would recommend the Alien RPG system (for the reasons you mention). I ran it at a local convention with very good results.
The Might and Magic RPG games on PC had that skill based system. You could be a Fighter and still learn spells, or be a Ranger and still learn to fight with a melee weapon.
There are a few skill-based games that let everyone potentially cast spells, although one of the only ones that doesn't have you pay some kind of magic user "tax" is Runequest. Usually, you have to pay some kind of tax to cast magic in one form or another. The Dark Eye for example, has you pay a straight up advantage called "Magic Traditon" that has a point cost and same thing for Blessed Ones (priests in TDE). Other games handle the "tax" differently.
I have fond memories of my Rolemaster RMSS Dwarf with a Potential Speed of 65 and always acting at 10 to get the DB.
I love the attention other creators are giving to Shadowdark! Such a great community has sprung up around the game, and Kelsey is such a great steward of both it and RPGs in general! 🤙
Season 2 of MM&D using ironsworn is sooo interesting after hearing his preffered level of detail vs abstration. As IronSworn is 100% abstraction of events with levels of success but details for tracking progress through a journey, fight or quest (vow).
AND it even inclued BATTLE, which is a move that lets you bypass the play by play style of fights to just hand wave it in one roll which allows both types of gamers to exist in one system. I would have NEVER noticed Trevor NOT liking that type of game because it worked SOOO WELL for his pace of gaming:entertainment ratio. It's also personally what I needed as an audience member to be invested in the story and return to finish the whole season properly! I stopped Season 3 by ep ~20 as one of those shows that I find it hard to jump back into for the reasons he mentioned @ 32:30
I'm absolutely down to watch you teach the group play Harn and by them US
Love skill based games.
Trevor is so entertaining. I could listen to Trevor talk about the weather. Lol
Genesys is underrated and has those levers, I think. The bespoke dice are a barrier though. Maybe there will be a generic 2d20 that could fill the gap?
This is less "the Kelsey Dionne Interview" than "the Kelsey Dionne Talking-to." (That's not a criticism, the excitement and enthusiasm is great.)
I generally prefer rules-light or narrative games these days, but not always. it depends on the story I am telling. That's why I have several games that I want to play at the moment (at least 5 or 6). Sometimes I want just enough of a framework to tell a story and randomize outcomes. Other times, I feel that having some crunch is important.
I understand the bit about Hit Points not really meaning anything until they are depleted, and wanting injury to have a tangible effect. The use of Hit Points is one of the two things (along with Vancian Magic) that drove me away from D&D, so I can see why someone would want to know specifically what happens in a particular attack. At the same time, I also like a narrative approach, where things are a bit more freeform. That's one of the reasons why I like Fate. You have the freedom to narrate what happens, but taking Consequences in battle (for example) has a tangible effect, both on the narrative and mechanically, but it's also quick and simple, with no need to look up special rules. In some was, I think Fate is actually my ideal game and it makes me a bit sad that it seems to get a lot of hate.
When it comes to D&D-style games, I lean toward Shadowdark, OSE, and ICRPG. If I want something light and narrative, it's Fate. If I want something with a bit of crunch (but still fast and easy), it's probably Savage Worlds. I have game ideas for each, as well as Ironsworn, Starforged, and Captain's Log. Each of those games has rules that impact the "flavour" of the game, so each one is well-suited to a particular type of story. I'm also looking forward to Crown and Skull and the Solodark solo rules for Shadowdark that Kelsey mentioned she's working on.
Are you going to check out the new Five Parsecs expansion Fixers Guidebook?
I must have been lucky in my past experiences at Cons. I never had a bad time at a table due to another player or GM.
The worst Con one-shot experiences I've had were due to the scenario feeling like it was written by someone who hated the game and/or it was obviously never playtested before inclusion.
For me, this would be typically one in six.
Wow. You guys have never played Earthdawn, have you? We do run the same group since 1st Edition.We always had powergamers. And they love the rules overload.
I have scoured the internet for a terrible Kelsey Dionne interview. I have failed miserably.
Any recommendations for starting solo ttrpgs?
Now I need to create an adventure wherein the characters will discover The Axe Of Flaming STUPIDITY!! Lmao
** Quietly hides his +3 Axe of Stupidity **
Oh, hi. Don't mind me.
Harnmaster, Rolemaster, & Hackmaster the master class game systems and what I compare every other game to.
That's me, I'm the new shiny guy. I have to watch my out-of-game intake, or I'll Mr. Toad the whole game.
PLEASE Interview RUNE HAMMER! HE IS A TTRPG/DM KING! He can be dominating in an interview space, so just let him cook but don't be afraid to take control if you have stuff to input XD
He can also teach you how to setup the table around Index card battlemaps which helps with abstacting on VTT and in person for unprepared events!
I still prefer BECMI , but SD isn’t bad , it’s a little like ICRPG
I just always use GM. I don't care if your playing AD&D 1st edition, Paranoia, The One Ring, Starfinder or Call of Cthulhu. It's just easier to say GM. I swear, Trevor you and I are soo similar. Back in the day and even to this day I just tend to use battle mats square/hex by Chessix to do stuff. I also use markers, dominos (they're perfect for fast walls), and poker chips. We will have minis but often most aren't even painted. Taking 20 to 30 minutes to set up a battle, situation etc just ruins the flow of the game.
We had a guy/player who went all in those Forge pieces and inflicted them on our table. He'd cart them over to where we played and of course if we played at his house. Drove us all nuts and the GM was too polite to push back much but man it ruined the flow of our game and the player was never truly paying good attention to the game since he was always digging through pieces for something that fit.
pf2e is the perfect "game"... that is both a good thing and a bad.
I'm a fan of Trevor's show and I'm not trying to be a jerk, but that the analogy (around the 8 min mark) about PDM playing the same game over and over is not accurate. I don't know Dan personally, but in just watching his videos I know that he plays several systems and that his own system has been developing over the years into what is now his own game, Deathbringer.
I'm one of those infuriating subscribers who primarily listens to your seasons rather than watching them. Sorry, Trevor. It's probably because I'm such a theater of the mind style GM. I use a battle mat sometimes, but I much prefer to describe the area in broad strokes.
I love interviews. But where is season 4? 😂